Stanek weekend question: What to say to mother who photographed her abortion?
Son-in-law Andy Moore forwarded me a link to thisismyabortion.com.
A mother using the pseudonym “Jane” took secret photos with her cell phone of her aborted baby and posted them online.
Jane’s rationale:
My intention in documenting and sharing my abortion is to demystify the sensationalist images propagated by the religious and political right on this matter. The perverse use of lifeless fetus photographs are a propaganda tool in the prolife/prochoice debate in which women and their bodies are used as pawns to push a cultural, political, and religious agenda in the United States.
At 6 weeks of pregnancy, my abortion looked very different than the images I saw when I entered the clinic that day.
Yes, a young baby murdered by suction abortion will look very different than an older baby murdered by a D&C, RU-486, D&E, or induced labor abortion.
So what? I am still overwhelmed with sadness looking at that jar of bloody pulp. Jane’s dead baby is in there, even if unrecognizable, and Jane had the great idea to “document” the murder. Both the visual and the thought are hard to bear.
The comments are hard to bear, too. Jane is being called “brave… incredible… thoughtful… helpful… an amazing chica… incredibly courageous,” etc., all for posting photographs of the baby she just murdered.
When asked in an interview whether she thought she would ever regret either her abortion or her decision to photograph the remains of her baby, Jane responded, “So far, I have not regretted having my abortion or sharing these photographs. I don’t think that I will.”
I’m not sure anything a pro-lifer has to say will get through to Jane at this point, but we can try. What would you like to say to her? What would you like to say to all those giving her kudos?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Maybe I’ll come up with something to say when I stop throwing up.
Would you stuff a kitten or puppy you didn’t want in a blender and turn on the switch? Why or why not?
I’ll bet that baby was just fine before it went through the suction tube. That’s when the pictures should have been taken. Suppose that was your only child – ever. I’m am so sorry about what you have to remember forever.
Jane appears to be removing any comments from her site that she perceives as being critical of her decision.
If you’re reading this, Jane…
I understand the pressures that women are under when they make the decision to have an abortion, and know it’s often painful, even agonising. Others make their decision quickly and without hesitation, like ripping off a bandaid. When it’s over, I have witnessed over and over a huge urge to convince others that what she’s done is the right thing, even though the person she most needs to convince is herself.
I hope one day that you are within arms reach of people who can genuinely help you when you realise that the jar of blood you are sharing with the world contained something very precious and irreplaceable. It may be when you have your first ultrasound with your next desired pregnancy, or when you hold a born child in your arms for the first time. It may be when your next offspring is miscarried or born prematurely. It may be when you reach menopause or have your tubes tied and realise that your other children haven’t replaced the one you just lost. It may be a thousand other times in your life, when a little nagging voice, a dream, a memory, a smell, a sight of a child, a sound of a vacuum, takes you back to the moment when you decided that your decision, on behalf of your child, was final.
I hope you don’t get the huge urge that many women experience, to conceive again in seven months time, or you may condemn another precious one to one of those jars. You may not realise that many women experience this subconscious desire to replace what is lost or to reenact the trauma. Once you’ve had one abortion, it’s easier to have another, and another. One might say that you become a slave to your past decision.
I hope your lightbulb moment comes sooner rather than later. Just this week I counselled a woman who had two abortions nearly half a century ago. She said I was the very first person she had shared this with and recalled decades of tears, self doubt, broken relationships, self-harming behaviours, nightmares and much much more. She had those abortions to save her lifestyle, and finally sees that they cost her a lifetime of peace and self-respect. She shared a memory that she said felt like it happened yesterday, when her firstborn son started school forty years ago, and an aunt commented on the momentous occasion while her heart screamed “He’s not my eldest child!”
I see in that jar not one lost life, but two. The only way you can turn against your own child is by hardening your heart and denying the truth. I want to help you, not hurt you, so I will not repeat the names my clients call themselves when their hearts become soft again and they can look truth in the face.
You deserved better. Your child deserved better. That you are willing to share such an intimate experience with complete strangers tells me more about you than you realise.
I wish you truth, healing and peace, and sooner, rather than later. Life is too precious to waste.
Narcissistic, if not psychopathic. So drawn into the politics of ‘choice’ that she refuses to see the humanity in this. Forget the Pro-Life movement – this is a disservice to the Pro-Choice women who struggle with their decision. Some people can look at dead babies and laugh. Some can look at dead full grown adults and laugh. Same mentality.
Satan has a hold of you. Repent and find forgiveness. Jesus can heal you.
This site doesn’t allow swearing.
I will not contribute to a spike in this woman’s stats–possibly giving her a source of revenue because she killed her child. Yes, I suppose it is ‘brave’ to show the world that she proudly murdered her own child…if only the rest of the world she revolves in had the moral grounding to properly call her out on it. But I suspect that her world lacks such grounding.
I wonder if her own mother is proud of her little girl, killing her grandchildren for all the internet to see.
One day dear Jane your inner demons will turn on you and all the images you haven’t seen, including the one of your innocent child swimming safely within its mothers womb seconds before the tube that came and sucked the life out of it…Everything about that child’s life was taken away including it’s CHOICE to live. God help you!
Satan has a hold of you. Repent and find forgiveness. Jesus can heal you
She might not be Christian – or worse, in your playbook, a member of a pro-choice Christian church.
What Jane didn’t show was what happened when she was in recovery.
You know, making sure all the bits and pieces were there.
Jane is the first surviving donor from a heart/brain transplant surgery.
Reminds me of the SNL skit where Dan Akroyd drops the already DEAD fish in the ‘Bassomatic’ and selects puré.
Instantly the finned friend is transformed into a ‘goo’ that bears no resemblance to it’s previous form.
Humans are stupid and this female is dumber than average.
On a scale of ‘from there to insanity’ I would rate her feeble attempt at intelligble thought somewhere between cataclysmic catastrophe and epic fail….and no points for style.
She should be senteced to paupers prison for dual crimes of moral bankruptcy and intellectually poverty.
Imagine the female version of Steve Erkel gawking in amazement at her handiwork and bobbing her vacuous bleached blonde head from side to side and exclaiming, “Did I do that?”
Or
The Menendez brothers, who after being convicted of murdering their parents with a shotgun, begging the sentencing judge for mercy because they are ’orphans’!
I understand Saddam Hussein used to dispose of his enemies by slowly lowering them into a paper shredder, but he was ‘kind’ enough to give them a choice…..head first or feet first.
The result was the same: a pile of pink slime that bore no resemblance to a human being, but nonetheless was ‘human remains’. [Think ‘Fargo’ and the red snow.]
So Jane when your momma was pregnant with you what species of embryo/fetus was in her uterus?
Don’t bother asking CC or Joan of Arcania.
If the blind lead the blind, they will both stumble into the pit they dug with their own hands and the stone which they positioned to fall on the unsuspecting will roll back upon them.
She might not be Christian – or worse, in your playbook, a member of a pro-choice Christian church.
CC, That does not preclude her from seeing things from a humane perspective some day and seeking forgiveness.
Not everyone regrets getting an abortion: http://www.imnotsorry.net
Sorry – not buying the story or the photos.
6 weeks is way too early for a typical vacuum aspiration abortion. The normal is 12 weeks so all the child’s shredded parts can be accounted for in a layout. There’s not enough mass in the bottle for a 12 week.
Oh yes – while doing some research, I came across this gem:
http://fetamed.com/index.php?page=uterine-aspirator-products
gotta love that kiddo in the corner touting a nice selection of suction cannulas.
http://fetamed.com/index.php?page=uterine-aspirator-products
Rush had it right – this is cruelty wrapped up as compassion.
Either that or Joseph Heller really nailed it with Milo Minderbinder in Catch22.
For the love of money, many a heart will grow cold…
Not everyone regrets committing rape.
What would I say to her? “I’m sorry for your loss.”
My brother is a cop working with a gang-homicide unit. He sees a lot of mean, mean people. He says there are those criminals who try flee his grasp, who loudly protest their innocence, who even fight with him or attempt to shoot at him; and then there are the cool hands–they commit the same crimes, but they do it with a smile. They don’t flee. They don’t fight. They don’t cry. They try to make cute conversation while they’re being brought in. My brother is deeply afraid of these latter types. And I’m deeply afraid of Jane.
ken the birther, I thought of “Fargo,” too. The guy put through the wood chipper looked a lot like Jane’s baby. But that didn’t make him any less a person. No one would have been so ludicrous as to try to make that claim. And what did we all think of the perpetrator? That he was a sicko.
It doesn’t matter if there are no arms and legs in that bottle (though I bet there are). We know human life begins at conception. Even if you abort a baby ten minutes after she is conceived, weeks before arms and legs, fingers and toes, we know that a human life has just been destroyed. It isn’t the fact that the unborn have arms and legs that make killing them wrong but that they are innocent and defenseless human life.
Clinics want women to be AT LEAST 6 weeks along before they will perform a suction abortion for the very reason that they need to strain that bloody pulp and piece the baby back together to insure nothing of the child is left behind in the womb to cause an infection.
I’m sure the abortionist strained the blood away and there were the tiny yet perfect parts of Jane’s murdered baby.
Btw, what is up with pro-aborts using the word “demystify”?
It is really sad that her baby was killed in 2011. I also was pregnant in 2011. My baby is sitting here on my lap cooing at me. The realization that her baby was just as precious as the one in my arms but that he/she is gone forever, killed by the very person who should have protected him/her is almost too much to bear.
Wow, you mean that if you take a vacuum to a child, it is not going to look like much of a child anymore? Didn’t Saddam Hussein put people through wood chippers? I imagine they didn’t look much like human beings afterwards either.
This is the “before” picture of an embryo the same age as this woman’s son or daughter:
http://ethics.davidson.edu/index.php/2010/02/the-moral-status-of-human-embryos/
All her photos do is prove how absolutely brutal abortion is to turn a formed embryo with eyes, a head, and limbs into mush. Put the “before” and “after” photos next to each other, and that would make some great pro-life propaganda for our team!
As terrible as this may seem, possibly it is time to animate fully what takes place fully during an abortion. Using the most contemporary computer graphic techniques possible, it is time to show what happens during an abortion with computer aided modeling from beginning to end. It would cost some funds to do and be painfully graphic, but how else are we going to face this reality? Graphic images of remains are not enough, but possibly, a true to life “mini-documentary” with real life development images and true-to-life computer animation can reveal the stark tragedy of what abortion is. Millions would watch only to see what abortion really is, and animation can reveal this without any real woman or child being harmed in the process. One guideline- It has to be a consummately professional production and scientifically accurate. There would have to be the factual leading into the moral and this is where the right voice-over would make all the difference. It is time for this.
Jill, why do you use the word “mother” to describe girls and women who fatally expel embryos and fetuses from their bodies?
The title “mother” is earned by the sacrifice made when a girl or woman carries for 9 months and gives birth. No one is a mother who has not made this sacrifice.
What word would you use instead? And what about adoptive mothers? I think you’re committing the “no true Scotsman” fallacy.
Navi says:
July 7, 2012 at 7:14 pm
What word would you use instead? And what about adoptive mothers? I think you’re committing the “no true Scotsman” fallacy.
(Denise) Adoptive mothers are raising children. They have earned the title through raising. Without carrying and giving birth, they make the sacrifices entailed in taking ultimate parental responsibility.
If someone has NEITHER carried to term and given birth NOR raised, that person is not entitled to be called a “mother.”
Girls and women who fatally expel embryos and fetuses are girls and women who have had abortions.
“Mother” is a title earned through sacrifice.
I’m with Chris-not enough volume in the jar to account for a completed abortion-how would the pathologist be able to sign off that the abortionist ‘got it all’? Since they shriek constantly for verification of our ‘fetus porn’ images, (and then claim they’re photoshopped when we provide verification) I’d like some verification for these images.
I seem to recall Angie the abortion hero being told six weeks was too early for vacuum aspiration – that’s why we had to endure three weeks of her whining act as she live-tweeted her chemical abortion. Curious.
Putting a six week fetus through vacuum aspiration is the equivalent of putting a grown man through a wood chipper. But, since a bunch of blood in a jar doesn’t look like an actual baby, that absolves mommy from guilt-appearance is all that matters, and abortion is so empowering this woman was compelled to take photos of whatever this was to prove it-to herself. No one else is buying.
I think that she is not a real person. She is a person made-up by pro-aborts to convince women that abortion is not ‘killing a baby.’
But real or not, there are human beings involved in the action. To her/them, I say may God have mercy on your soul/souls. Believe in hell and Satan. They will take souls who disregard and break God’s commandments. Abortion is murder–murder of the most innocent human beings created in the likeness of God.
What would be the result for America if women stopped having abortions — just stopped?
How would we deal with the 1 million and 1/2 more babies born each year?
I think it is obvious we would have to go all out with overhauling and expanding social programs since so many would be born to impoverished single women.
I searched “abortion clinic” on Google and found an abortion clinic called “Whole Women’s Health” that does surgical abortions as early as 3 weeks.
Not to mention, she’d still be under anesthesia at this point in the ‘procedure’. Also questionable whether taking pics would be allowed, because of liability issues. They don’t let us photograph our root canals, do they? A surgical suite is supposed to be a sterile environment, not a blog party, I highly doubt this would be allowed, which is why I gotta laugh when deathscorts claim they held a woman’s hand during an abortion-if your so-called doctor is allowing people in and out, you might want to look for a new one? Oh, wait, the government will assign you one now-nevermind.
“The title “mother” is earned by the sacrifice made when a girl or woman carries for 9 months and gives birth. No one is a mother who has not made this sacrifice. ”
Huh? The word mother is not a title; no one can “earn” it. Any woman with offspring is a mother. Was Andrea Yates not a mother?
Also: why is the use of images of aborted fetuses ‘perverse’? If abortion is so wonderful and empowering, why is looking at it so perverse? Nugget of truth there?
“How would we deal with the 1 million and 1/2 more babies born each year?
I think it is obvious we would have to go all out with overhauling and expanding social programs since so many would be born to impoverished single women. ”
Oh man. I have a headache. Abortion does not exist in a vacuum (pun intended). You have a very static, naive view of the dynamics of sexuality, abortion, and economics in societies. In 1965, 93% of US babies were born to married women, which disproves that lack of contraception and illegal abortion in of themselves means lots of single mothers.
The pro-choice, Nobel-prize winning economist George Akerlof has extensively documented that the legalization of contraception and abortion has greatly increased single motherhood and child poverty. There are tons of economics papers demonstrating the same with empirical evidence. The religion-hating anthropologist Lionel Tiger has also provided biological research to explain why this phenomenon happens. If you cannot use common sense to figure out why this is the case, you might want to read some of their work and address those arguments with facts, not uninformed speculation.
Ending slavery (which resulted in a massive population of newly freed African Americans to “deal with”) wasn’t without its social costs. Even today, the racial disparities in overall success show that these problems still haven’t been fully resolved. That doesn’t mean that it was wrong to insist on an end to slavery.
My comment to this girl is….”one day I was awaken by the voice of God…he was loving nevertheless he was firm….he awakened me to the fact that I had murdered all my children….after that is when I realized what I had done…. I had commited abortion=murder”…..but that day did not come for 10 years so my adviced to this girl, lady, mother without children is one day you will cry…and cry…and cry and only then will you call upon God’s mercy to forgive this mistake called abortion=murder….but till that day…. I am not God nor am I the judge of the world…. I can tell you that for me…it was painful… and I fell into a life of alcohol, marijuana, drugs and unprotected sex……but now I have changed my ways.. I found a new way of living… and I say my story not to convice you because at the end you will continue to have abortion after abortion… i say my story for whom ever is ready to change their ways, that is to convert into a new life…to read this line and call upon God to awaken their forgiveness. Oh and I do feel the pain of this BABY when it was torn up inside the womb… the pain of the Father of the child and all the trauma it will cause around this group of people. GET THERAPY WHEN THE TIME COMES….SEEK FOR PROJECT RACHEL OR AA
.
I am praying for her. I am praying that in those quiet moments when there might be doubt and regret that she find help.
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org
Denise Noe,
I aborted my first child at 10 weeks. I am her mother.
I miscarried at 10 weeks. I am his mother.
I miscarried at 9 weeks. I am his mother.
I am raising 4 children. I am their mother.
I “got into it” with Abby Johnson on Facebook over these pictures. The points others have made here were some of the same things I brought up:
How do we know these pictures are pictures of HER (Jane’s) abortion? As I said (to Abby) she could have gotten these pictures from ANYWHERE.
I also pointed out- WHO would be in physical/emotional condition immediately following her own abortion to have the presence of mind to even TAKE pictures?
Taking a picture of bloody liquid in a jar just helped her(Jane) say “See here? it’s just liquid..nothing to see because it’s not a baby”. Not a rational argument since, as has been pointed out, of course it doesn’t look like a baby- ANYMORE.
Jane is either very disturbed or very stupid. Maybe both.
I just don’t understand why people blame the baby for their bad choices? I’m not married and I haven’t had sex for 5 years, it’s been really hard, but say I was having sex and I got pregnant is it the babies fault? God doesn’t tell us to stay pure before marriage because He is some some kind of slave driver, he tells us to remain pure because he wants whats best for us and those around us. Now that is has been five hard years of not having sex I can say that it is possible, and that my life is full and exciting and I don’t need sex to make it complete. How have we become so selfish to allow ourselves to be ok with murder? I just feel bad for those poor babies, how can you call it pro-choice when the baby has absolutely no choice? I just read the imnotsorry website and I am sick to my stomach. I read one story where a woman said she has had a few abortions and she has no regrets, in fact she has told her children and it is something open that they talk about all the time, I can just see them having dinner, “Little Jonny how was school? Oh and remember when I killed your little brother and sister”? Really?. Eh I can’t believe it, it breaks my heart. There is a book out called The Moral Revolution I think we all should read it!
This is not necessarily just a hypothetical question. The site says:
“Should you feel moved to write me personally, please do so at jane@thisismyabortion.com.”
Here is the letter I wrote to her email. She is not taking comments but is accepting emails.
Hi “Jane”,
I just wanted to let you know, peacefully, that you are incorrect in your assertions that PL people use propaganda.
There is plenty of actual documention that has been verified by Medical Examiners, abortionists etc.
Here is a neutral, educational site of what an preborn baby looks like. I’ve linked you to the 6 week page, about the time of your abortion. Your baby looked like a baby, only with soft tissue. The vaccuum suction destroys the form of the baby.
http://www.ehd.org/movies.php?mov_id=31#content
By law, an abortionist has to reassemble the parts and pieces to be sure that your uterus is empty and an infection won’t ensue. This is someting the mother wouldn’t be told as the patient.
Here is another site. Please take close note of the validation of the pictures in the first link, The following link is the actual picture.
http://www.abortionno.org/index.php/abortion_pictures/verifying_photograph_authenticity/
http://www.abortionno.org/index.php/abortion_pictures/
Finally, here is one more I want to share with you. Please note the medical pathologists certification under the pictures.
http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/photosbyage/weeks.html#top
I urge you to retract your statement that we use “propaganda”. This is real, life and death stuff. It is not a game, nor is it about politics, race, gender, religion. This is about Human Rights.
I happen to believe in God and will be praying for your healing. There is so much research out there that shows that at first, women feel relieved and then later down the road suffer deep sorrow, regret etc. I would imagine one would have to be a pretty cold and heartless person to not feel some kind of remorse at some point. There is healing and help when you are ready.
I am so sorry that we, as a society, have let you down and led you to believe that you had no choice. I am sorry that we weren’t there to support and encourage you- that YES, you can do this. There is help out there for you, there are loving people out there waiting for a baby or waiting to reach out to you, to offer almost anything you need. You did have other options available to you.
Jill,
I posted a link dense copy of letter I sent to Jane-can you put it thru, please?
Blessing
Jane, when and if you hit that brick wall of pain remember these words, Rachel’s vineyard. It could save your life.
My daughter just had a baby boy. I am so thankful that my daughter respects life.
To think that a human being can do what is depicted in this article to an innocent child is unthinkable.
Oh, did I tell you I babysat ny grandson Elijah today? I could not take my eyes off him.
Congratulations on your grandson Hisman!
SM says:
July 7, 2012 at 8:15 pm
“The title “mother” is earned by the sacrifice made when a girl or woman carries for 9 months and gives birth. No one is a mother who has not made this sacrifice. ”
Huh? The word mother is not a title; no one can “earn” it. Any woman with offspring is a mother. Was Andrea Yates not a mother?
(Denise) Before she committed those atrocities, Andrea Yates had 5 times carried to term and gone through childbirth. She had also been RAISING her babies prior to the murders.
Adoptive mothers make the sacrifices inherent in taking responsibility for babies by raising them. Biological mothers are those who have made the sacrifices one makes by carrying to term and giving birth.
Girls and women who have or have had abortions should not be called “mothers.” They have shirked the sacrifices inherent in motherhood.
Carla wrote:
Denise Noe,I aborted my first child at 10 weeks. I am her mother.I miscarried at 10 weeks. I am his mother.I miscarried at 9 weeks. I am his mother.I am raising 4 children. I am their mother.
(Denise) No. You are a mother of 4 children who has a history of abortion and miscarriage.
Calling girls and women who abort “mothers” fouls that word.
Anonymous Designer says:
July 7, 2012 at 7:03 pm
As terrible as this may seem, possibly it is time to animate fully what takes place fully during an abortion. Using the most contemporary computer graphic techniques possible, it is time to show what happens during an abortion with computer aided modeling from beginning to end. It would cost some funds to do and be painfully graphic, but how else are we going to face this reality?
(Denise) “The Silent Scream” already did this. Limbs, or the “buds” of what would become limbs, are torn apart.
denise, I disagree. My first mother’s day I was about 3 months pregnant with my first son yet my family honored me as a mother…because I was a mother.
My friend just miscarried her 3rd baby. She is the mother of 3 dead babies through no fault of her own. Because God chose to take her children to heaven does not negate the fact she is a mother. By your logic you could argue I am not a mother since I haven’t raised my children to adulthood yet. Why should I call myself a mother when I haven’t yet put in 18 years?
Women who abort ARE mothers. Thats what makes their choice to abort so horrifying! Mother should be the person a baby is safest with.
Jane, here is what happens to aborted children.
“Author Sue Hertz spent a year observing in a busy abortion clinic. Here are a few excerpts from her book:
“It was easy to shrug off an aborted pregnancy as nothing more than a sack of blood and globs of tissue – as many pro-choice activists did- if one never saw fetal remains, or products of conception (POC) as they were known in medical circles. But the nurses, medical assistants, and doctors who worked inside procedure rooms …knew that an eleven-week-old POC harbored tiny arms and legs and feet with toes. At twelve weeks, those tiny hands had tiny nails. Although the fetal head was too small at this stage to withstand the evacuation machine’s suction, pieces of face- a nose and mouth, or a black eye…were sometimes found in the aftermath…Later abortions spawned even more gruesome fetal remains…the head did not come out whole during the evacuation, but the legs and arms and rib cage made it through intact. The hand of a second trimester fetus, as a Preterm doctor described it, seemed big enough to shake.” (8)
http://clinicquotes.com/site/story.php?id=25
Whether or not a mother will make the necessary sacrifices defines only what kind of mother she is. It does not change the fact that she’s already a mother.
Denise,
What has the result of 55 million murdered by by abortion been? Does anyone in their right mind think 55 million Americans being taken out of the mix has no effect? They were our fellow employees, our future husbands and wives and son and daughter in laws, our best friends forever, and on and on-would Social Security and Medicare be going broke? Would clinical depression (which has skyrocketed exponentially since Roe was passed) be so rampant? Would millions of mothers be going it alone instead of with life partners? Europe was forever changed when six million Jews were violently removed from society. To expect 1/3 of every generation to not change this nation is foolishness-their loss is felt daily in ways most of us can’t even fathom. One day we will know what we lost, and how it effected each and every one of us.
P.S. Motherhood is forever-unless you’d like to tell mothers like me who have lost children by miscarriage that we’re no longer their mothers? Get back to us on what kind of reaction you get. As the saying goes, abortion doesn’t make you unpregnant, it makes you the mother of a dead baby.
One more thing – there’s a reason the prayer goes ‘Holy Mary, Mother of God’, not “Holy Mary, once Mother of God’ – she’s His mother once and for all time, same as we are to our own kids, regardless of the length of their life spans.
I’m tempting to write something to this “Jane”, but I’m too angry to write anything coherent. Blessing, you did a far better job than I ever could.
Denise,
If a woman gets pregnant do we have to wait until after the child is born to determine who the mother and father of the child are?
You should think carefully before you post, Denise. I have one child here on Earth. I am her mother. I have SEVEN in Heaven. I conceived them, the same as I did my daughter here. They were ALIVE here…if only briefly. They are ALIVE now..in Heaven.
They were HUMAN..they were HERE. They will always be my children.
I will ALWAYS be their MOTHER.
One of the biggest tools pro-lifers employ to make their point are images of aborted fetuses. On this site right now you have an article featuring the fully formed head of a very developed aborted baby being used to protest abortion. This ‘argument’ explicitly appeals to pathos: and says the abortion is wrong because of how human the baby LOOKS.
This is only a valid argument if the pictures are valid. And ‘Jane’ combats the simplistic ‘argument’ in an equally simplistic way. There is nothing particuarly gruesome about abortion therefore it is okay.
Her ‘argument’ is in ineffectual as a broad argument for abortion, but it is quite a good combatant for your argument through pictures.
This is EXACTLY why I love the pro-life message stating that every life is a life – it is precious – the baby is a gift from God and will bring abundant blessings.
The message of graphic abortion pictures is the same thing that the anti death penalty crowd ran with – and the response from the pro-death penalty crowd was “build a better death penalty”. Use drugs instead, make it quiet and painless, all are happy. Now, of course the anti death penalty crowd doesn’t want the death penalty for a variety of reasons, but saying that it can painfully and graphically kill somebody gives the option of the solution of “let’s find a better way to do it”.
SAME thing for PETA. PETA’s ultimate goal is for nobody to eat animals. But they argue so often for humane treatment – which gives animals more space in their pens before they are slaughtered just the same.
Forget for a second what we would say to this woman – think about what you would say if you had a graphic abortion picture and somebody walked up and said “it is/was nothing like that at all”.
well done jane. if she wasnt ready she wasnt ready. not everyone can give a child up for adoption. i would make the same choice she did
Leia, that is an incredibly selfish thing to say. You’d rather subject your child to a horrific death being ripped apart then birth him/her and place the child with a loving family? Go you.
No Shannon, you are wrong. You clearly don’t “get it”. We show photos of late term abortions because people like you support it! It is LEGAL and it goes on thousands of times every day. We show the photos so that maybe, JUST MAYBE your sickly conscience will prick you and you’ll stop supporting the killing of little baby boys and girls.
But even if all there is is mush after a 6 week abortion, that doesn’t change the biological reality that a new human life exists at the moment of conception and that abortion unjustly kills that life. We do not have worth because we have arms and legs. If that were the case then many veterans returning home could be re-classified as “non-persons”. We have worth because we are HUMAN BEINGS and as such have an inherent right to life.
I don’t know why the pro-aborts here are so “duhhhhh”. I think they are being deliberately obtuse. I had my first ultrasound (I’ve shared this a hundred times on this site but it needs repeating now) at 5 weeks. FIVE weeks after conception, 7 weeks of pregnancy. My son had a head. You could clearly see facial features such as the orbits of the eyes, the nasal pits, a mouth. He had arms and legs that stuck straight out like a gummy bear. In the center of his chest was a huge beating heart. He looked very human and you could see he was alive. If I had aborted I’m sure his tender little body would be turned to mush. THere is no bone yet at 5/6 weeks. Doesn’t change the fact that our babies are human and alive before the abortion and still human but dead after the abortion.
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.abort73.com/HTML/AbortionPictures/images/abortion-07-02.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.abort73.com/HTML/AbortionPictures/07-02.html&usg=__MDXlFqwa7njfF0Lf8OfCD18aqqM=&h=438&w=584&sz=69&hl=en&start=12&sig2=o0f775Kqn4b9rAsGo3Qhng&zoom=1&tbnid=N3mgKsoqFYZJ_M:&tbnh=101&tbnw=135&ei=KMr5T6SJHbGy0AHjwt3UBg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dabortion%2Bat%2B7%2Bweeks%26hl%3Den%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1
EX-GOP:
I agree. However, I ‘ve been on far too many “debates” with proaborts and frankly, it is exhausting and often unfruitful (though I do pray those seeds are planted). It is also extremely cumbersome and ineffective to try to have a real debate online. I chose this route last night because of Jane’s pride in her pictures. IT was a matter of focus, one that she chose. I reached out to her as a person–not BSed about her on here.
Shannon, see post above. I am fairly fluent in most all of the arguments ranging from the medical/scientific/biological perspective, secular, femminist etc. straight to God grants us life and it has inhertent value, dignity . I’ve learned from many of the debates on here that too often we are interested in talking AT these people, instead of really listening to them and finding some niche in their armor to talk WITH them. All I did was listen and find that niche. WE can throw every argument at them, muddy the waters, get nothing solved. I chose the pics in this case, because it it where SHE is at right now. That is the level at which she would be most open.
OT Might want to check out: Marshall Rosenberg’s Nonviolent Communication. Distilled to its most simplistic idea it is ONFR 1) Observe 2) Need 3) feelings 4) request.
State what you observe: Jane took pictures and wants feedback
She needs? Attention? validation? power?
She is feeling? ____________fill in the blank
Request: Mine was please remove the claim that the pics are propaganda.
Sydney M says:
July 8, 2012 at 1:53 pm
Leia, that is an incredibly selfish thing to say. You’d rather subject your child to a horrific death being ripped apart then birth him/her and place the child with a loving family? Go you.
(Denise) Sydney, do you know why New York City suffered the “Summer of Sam”? David Berkowitz was adopted. He killed women in lovers’ lanes because he feared they would conceive and eventually place babies for adoption. Yes, he had a loving adoptive family.
Joel Rifkin murdered prostitutes because he feared he had been placed in a loving adoptive home by a prostitute. As it turned out, that wasn’t true. His biological mother had been an unmarried college student.
Did Berkowitz and Rifkin wish they had been aborted? NO!!!! They wished that the woman who carried for 9 months and gave birth had raised them.
When a baby grows inside a girl or woman and is birthed by her, the baby as well as the mother have formed a strong bond. This may be why adoptees are 2-3% of the population and 16% of serial murderers.
This may also be why adoptees are 15 times more likely than other people to kill 1 or both parents.
This isn’t an argument for abortion. These are reasons to ensure that women who become pregnant are women who want to mother.
Sydney,
“No Shannon, you are wrong. You clearly don’t “get it”. We show photos of late term abortions because people like you support it! It is LEGAL and it goes on thousands of times every day.??
Why do you think I support late-term abortion? No matter. You are still vehemently wrong. There are absolutely not thousands of late-term abortions daily in the US. Not even close
And that is the point. The pictures you show are not the accurate face of abortion. Most people in America already don’t support late term abortion. And you can’t use pictures of later term abortion to change people’s sickly conscious about early term abortion because the images are not analogous and its called lying!
“But even if all there is mush after a 6 week abortion, that doesn’t change the biological reality that a new human life exists at the moment of conception and that abortion unjustly kills that life.”
Sure thing. Then be honest and use other arguments. Don’t show pictures of fully formed fetuses to ‘argue against’ a woman taking a morning after pill. If you want to show women the horror of legal abortion at 6 weeks show them Jane’s picture, which looks unshockingly like a jar with some blood in it.
Shannon, there are about 300,000 late term abortions in the US each year. Do the math. Divide by 365 and see what that comes out to a day.
Shannon, click on the link I posted above. That is a 7 week abortion. Yes, there are identifiable fetal remains.
And AGAIN, it doesn’t matter if there is only blood and mush in the jar. The biological fact remains that human life begins at conception and that abortion ends that life. As others pointed out above, if we feed a human adult through a wood chipper there will only be blood and mush left over. Does that somehow mean a human being wasn’t just killed?
Is that really your argument? That if we can’t see identifiable remains nothing or no one important was killed? Weak argument.
Shannon, we argue against the taking of ALL prenatal life at ALL stages. Late term abortion happens every single day. It happens! Pro-lifers have pulled these babies out of the trash behind abortion mills. This was legalized killing. It is equally wrong to kill a baby ten minutes after conception as it is 24 weeks after conception. Of course the killing of a 24 week old is more horrifying, but it is no more or no less evil. Abortion is evil. period. In all it’s forms.
If you stab someone to death and hack them to pieces I would say that is more horrifying than shooting them with a gun. But that doesn’t make shooting them with a gun any less evil.
And we do show plenty of first trimester children killed by abortion. So stop acting like we don’t. We show abortions at ALL stages. I don’t know how you expect us to get pictures of babies killed by “morning after” pills.
Jill could look at the bottle of blood in the above photos and feel sadness. I too felt the same sadness when I saw the photos. I can’t see any little hands or feet pressed up against the sides of the jar but I could still see the bloody jar and realize that a human life had been ended. It made me sad.
I would gladly take pictures (if there were a way to do it) of a morning after abortion. If we could somehow show the microscopic life that was just ended we could show the whole world. And they probably wouldn’t care. There is a deadening of consciences in our society. In our world. There is a lack of empathy that is becoming more and more apparent as years go by. There is a coarsening of society’s behavior.
I was watching a video a mom made about her stillborn baby on youtube and people were leaving comments about how they were glad her “ugly baby is dead” and horrible things like that. Who does that? Who leaves nasty comments about a dead child for the mom to read? These are the people who live among us. You could show them the blood and explain that a newly conceived human life had just been killed and they wouldn’t care. Heck, some don’t even care when you show them the dismembered arms and legs. Or worse yet, some argue that we are being sneaky by showing the decapitated head of a 6 month old fetus instead of, oh, I don’t know, being angry that such a thing was allowed to happen in the first place!
P.S. Motherhood is forever-unless you’d like to tell mothers like me who have lost children by miscarriage that we’re no longer their mothers? Get back to us on what kind of reaction you get.
I really hope she doesn’t…my reaction would involve words not allowed on this site.
Denise, Jeffrey Dahmer wasn’t adopted. What point are you trying to make? Adoption is always better than abortion. Parenting is even better (imo)!
I don’t want any woman to ever feel coerced or pressured to put her baby up for adoption. I want every woman who WANTS to parent to have the love and support to do so. What I don’t want is someone who isn’t remotely interested in parenting using that as an excuse to kill their baby.
Btw, I know many many people who are adopted and all are extremely well-adjusted people. My sister and her husband are pursuing adoption right now of a Chinese little girl with special needs. Wouldn’t it be great if her mom was legally allowed to raise her? Or if her family wanted her even with her special needs? But if they don’t I am glad there are loving families like my sister’s who will take this little girl and love her and provide for her. That is a better option than being torn limb from limb.
Jane, there is a reason that you are so cruel & insensitive & merciless towards your own flesh-and-blood baby. It’s because you have a wicked heart. Every time you sin, in thought, word & deed, you do so knowing that it is wrong. That’s because you have a conscience. God gave it to you. But, even though you know it is evil to be sexually immoral & murder your own child, you do it anyway. Your poor infant was a gift from the Lord. But, because of your wicked heart & your determination to sin against the light of conscience, you are now senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. (Read Romans 1:18-32 for a description of yourself.) You show your hatred for God & your love for death when you killed your baby. Your little infant cannot forgive you because he or she is dead. You cannot forgive yourself, because you don’t have the power or authority to forgive sin. Jesus Christ is the only One who has the power & authority to forgive you. He said you must humble yourself & repent, or you will perish. Don’t delay. Turn from your sin & cry out to the Savior for mercy & grace & for a new heart to replace your stony one. Repent, before it is too late.
Sydney M says:
July 8, 2012 at 3:47 pm
Denise, Jeffrey Dahmer wasn’t adopted. What point are you trying to make? Adoption is always better than abortion. Parenting is even better (imo)!
I don’t want any woman to ever feel coerced or pressured to put her baby up for adoption. I want every woman who WANTS to parent to have the love and support to do so. What I don’t want is someone who isn’t remotely interested in parenting using that as an excuse to kill their baby.
(Denise) Of course the majority of serial murderers aren’t adoptees. Adoptees are only 2-3% of the population. However, the truth that 2-3% of the population makes up 16% of serial murderers is significant. It is also significant that adoptees are 15 times more likely than other people to kill a parent.
Neither David Berkowitz nor Joel Rifkin has said they wished they hadn’t been born. They’ve said they were very disturbed by having been placed for adoption. Berkowitz is presently quite happy with his life in prison.
I recently wrote an article on Marlene Olive, a woman who, when she was 15, talked her older boyfriend into murdering her adoptive parents. The fact that she murdered her parents doesn’t mean it wasn’t worth it for them to adopt her. They enjoyed 15 years of the experience of parenting before being killed.
My point is that the women who get pregnant should be the women who want to raise babies. Adoption contributes to many horrors and deaths.
The choice isn’t adoption vs. abortion.
The goal should be to ensure that the women who get pregnant are those who want to have babies. Of course, if the woman dies in childbirth, the baby may have to be placed for adoption. If she finds she just doesn’t want to raise, she may have to place for adoption. But these statistics indicate adoption is strongly connected to death and horror.
Are we all working with the same definition of late term? Because I’ve heard numbers like 11 000 a year, and I believe that was for abortions at 20 weeks or later.
Denise Noe,
That is YOUR opinion.
I am a mother of seven children. I could care less if you think I am or not.
I will not allow you to hurt ANY of my friends who ARE mothers and ARE grieving their children that have passed away.
How cruel of you to think you get to decide who is or is not a mother!!
My dear Pamela,
Yes. You are a mother. I know that pain and that grief and am grateful to God that we shall see our precious little ones again!!
Love you!
There is a pro-lifer who is posting as “annoymous” whose posts have not be deleted. However, said annoymous pro-lifer is geting heckled pretty badily. God bless them!
(I don’t know who the pro-lifer is, I just know it isn’t me. I haven’t read everything that pro-lifer posted, but it looked like they were trying to be kind and from what I did see, there wasn’t any cursing or swearing in the pro-lifer’s post).
Oh and by the way…I don’t think bad language is strictly forbidden there, given that there is a post that “Jane” hasn’t deleted that used the f-word when thanking her.
Yes, shannon, all those pics of the little bloody, dismembered, transparent hands on DIMES are from late-term abortions. Because both my kids were the size of DIMES when they were first born, right?
@xalisae: This has always boggled me. The abortion apologists running around complaining about abortion photos because they’re enlarged. Well of course they are! That’s no secret. What do people suppose the dimes and the quarters are there for?!? Everyone knows how big a dime is, thus the pictures come with a scale already included. That’s just impossibly obvious, and yet people run around all over the place pretending they’ve missed it.
It’s obvious that Jane is disconnected from herself and the child of her womb. It’s hard to know why Jane had the abortion in the first place, but her photos and commentary do not speak to the reality of many abortion-minded women who are coerced and numb. Jane has coldly disconnected from her own humanity, which as a woman involves a continuum of transmission of life within her.
Showing that the slaughter of her baby is no big deal, and boasting of it, Jane is perhaps one of the biggest victims of abortion. At least the woman who does so reluctantly, remorsefully is still in touch with her humanity.
Although I view it as extremely inappropriate and misleading to use the word “mothers” for girls and women who have abortions — and indeed for those who have miscarried — I am not going to debate this any further. It seems that some women who have miscarried are emotionally invested in the idea that they are “mothers” and since they wanted to make the sacrifices inherent in carrying to term but weren’t able to, it is pointless to cause them pain over it.
Too late Denise Noe.
I believe what you bring to most discussions here is extremely inappropriate!!
Your thoughtless comments have caused unnecessary pain to those that have lost children.
You owe mothers who have endured the pain and grief of the loss of children an apology.
And then you can put a sock in it.
Denise, you may have a psychological problem with calling pregnant women mothers, but your argument is not with us, it is with the dictionary:
Wow, Carla! Big, tight hugs…
I know that this dialogue deeply hurt you. I’ve seen you tormented by Proaborts on here and FB forums and always marveled at your patience, persistence and tolerance and empathy for other women, especially post abortive ones. (that is why you are the mod!) I’ve never seen you write like that last post. I am inspired by you!
Dictionary.com has these definitions.
moth·er
1 ? ?[muhth-er] Show IPA
noun
1.
a female parent.
2.
( often initial capital letter ) one’s female parent.
3.
a mother-in-law, stepmother, or adoptive mother.
4.
a term of address for a female parent or a woman havingor regarded as having the status, function, or authority of afemale parent.
I’m not going to apologize for saying that girls and women who have abortions aren’t mothers. I still think it is inappropriate and that mothers should be defined as those who have made certain specific sacrifices.
I am sorry that this caused pain to girls and women who miscarried. I’m not going to argue with them about whether or not they are “mothers.” It is pointless.
Blessing,
Hugs to you!!
I know too many women that have aborted their children and understand and believe and know deep in their hearts that they are mothers. What else could they possibly be??
Anyway it is for them I am writing. It is for the mothers that are reading and not commenting.
If you have aborted your child you are a mother. If you have miscarried a child you are a mother. If you have lost a child in stillbirth or early infant death you are a mother. You are and I pray you wear that title as proudly as I do!!!
Denise Noe,
It was pointless of you to even bring it up.
Dictionary.com has these definitions.
moth·er
1 ? ?[muhth-er] Show IPA
noun
1.
a female parent.
How does this not apply to any and all pregnant women, regardless of what they do after becoming pregnant? Are they not the biological parents of their children, regardless of whether or not they birth the child alive, the child dies in utero, or they have the child killed in utero? Would you disagree with a DNA test that proved you incorrect?
So if you were introducing a woman at – say – a public event, would you describe her as the mother of one if she has miscarried and had no other children? If there is no “issue,” there is no parent. One cannot claim a miscarried/aborted fetus on one’s income tax returns.
At least the woman who does so reluctantly, remorsefully is still in touch with her humanity
Ah, yes, the submissive, suplicant female. Good luck with that.
CC,
You are on a roll tonight!! Go you!!
I do believe that is up to an individual woman how she wants to be “introduced at a public event.”
You are welcome to share a pair of socks with Denise Noe.
Wow, Denise. I know that you have your views and that’s fine, but sometimes you should really be careful when deciding to share them. I know a woman who has had five late term miscarriages and one living child. She calls herself a mother of six. I also know a woman who has had two miscarriages. She says that she does not consider herself a mother. Both those viewpoints are okay… But I know my second friend wouldn’t be so arrogant as to berate my first friend for considering herself a mother to her miscarried babies. There is no need to insist that people follow your particular definition unless you want to hurt people.
As for the OP, I dunno what I would say. Probably something to the effect that no matter what that embryo looks like after the abortion, it was still a human being. The humanity doesn’t change based on how gory the end product of the death looks.
This is one of my main issues with the graphic signs, among other things. I realize people are more emotionally affected by later term fetuses that are recognizably human bodies torn apart, but I don’t believe that is something pro-lifers should focus on. Like Ex mentioned, it is easy for abortion advocates to rightly point out that the majority of abortions don’t look like that, that most abortions end up looking like that poor being that Jane took a picture of. People are uncomfortable with gore, but they don’t seem to have that same discomfort for the early terms, it is easy for them to dismiss the signs.
Denise Noe
You say that if a woman miscarries she is not a mother? Well, if your mother dies are you no longer a daughter? Of course not, you will always be a daughter because once a woman conceives she is a mother and that makes the child a daughter or son.
I have had three babies die in my womb because of miscarriage. DON’T YOU DARE TELL ME I AM NOT THEIR MOTHER. I am a mother to a little boy I miscarried, to twin girls I miscarried and to a little boy still growing in my womb (I am almost 30weeks).
I have never ever been so insulted in my life.
Jane, google - Embryo 6 weeks – You were that small once, and just as precious.
Congratulations Katlyn!!!!! And a lot of prayers and well-wishes to you and your son!
xalisae says:
July 8, 2012 at 9:34 pm
Dictionary.com has these definitions.moth·er1 ? ?[muhth-er] Show IPAnoun1.a female parent.
How does this not apply to any and all pregnant women, regardless of what they do after becoming pregnant? Are they not the biological parents of their children, regardless of whether or not they birth the child alive, the child dies in utero, or they have the child killed in utero? Would you disagree with a DNA test that proved you incorrect?
(Denise) X, many years ago I read an article by a woman who strongly opposes legal abortion. I remember a phrase about how abortion contrasts so strongly with “the prostrate sacrifice of childbirth.” This was decades ago but the phrase has stayed with me. I think of mothering in terms of sacrificing so a child can live. Adoptive mothers make this sacrifice when they accept responsibility for a child’s life. Biological mothers make this beautiful sacrifice in childbirth. The special nature of motherhood is its sacrifice.
CC, income taxes are not the end all, be all of human existance. Taxes are simply a way for a specific government to count and collect (refund) monies to specific peoples. You can’t put a son of 37 on an income tax return either, but that doesn’t relate to his parentage. There are plenty of people who don’t file tax returns, they do not cease to exist when the government doesn’t get paperwork on them. Governments do not confir humanity upon their citizens, they (at best) confir citizenship, with all it’s rights and duties, upon some humans.
Words have definitions for a reason, and an intelligent human being should never let anyone get away with arbitrarily changing a definition. “Mother” means, quite simply, the female being who contributed half of the dna to a new being. It *also* means the female being who carried, births, legally cares for or is guardian of, and/or at one point in time did any of the previously stated. That’s why we add identifiers on like ‘birth mother’, ‘biological mother’, ‘adopted mother’, ‘mother of grown children’ etc. In our society, society as a whole is uncomfortable about death. Some parents (both mothers and fathers) count their deceased children when mentioning how many they have, other do not. Frequently ones who do not do so out of simplicity as they do not feel up to constantly explaining a difficult memory (‘i have five kids’…’really? Is the fifth at a friend’s house?’…’no, he died four years ago’). Just like some widows/widowers just say they are ‘unmarried’ or ‘not currently married’. Not proclaiming to everyone that they have been married in the past and are now widowed doesn’t mean they *aren’t* widowed. And some widows still go by ‘Mrs’.
The second conception occures 3 people are created, the offspring, the mother, and the father. If death occures very early it’s possible all three will never even know it. If mom doesn’t tell dad, the baby could grow to adulthood without the father ever even knowing he’s a father. Sometimes only 2 or 3 people (plus perhaps a doctor) will ever know these three people existed. But regardless of longevity, knowledge, widespread knowledge, acceptance, or proper behavior (we can certainly all agree there are bad mothers and bad fathers) that every single human being has, at the moment of conception both a mother and father can never be undone and is a simple biological fact, nor does the (possible) addition of further mothers/fathers at a later date make the original ones any less valid.
Perhaps greeting card companies should bring out new lines of Mother’s Day cards. These would be for girls and women who gave embryos and fetuses the shaft. “Jane’s” pic of a bloodied jar could be on the cover of these fatally expelled embryo/fetus Mother’s Day cards.
@ JDC, Shannon, Sydney:
88% of abortions occur <12 weeks.
See my above post to “Jane” to see the tiny human destroyed at 6 weeks.
46,000 occur b/w 16-20 weeks. (about 3.8% of abortions)
18,185 abortions are past 20 weeks!! (1.5%)
Proaborts think that abortion is simply a “blob” of tissues. I want to know what your (weak, illogical, flawed) reason is for the murdering of the 65,000 babies destroyed late term?????????
Source: Guttmacher Institute, 2011, January. Facts on Induced Abortion in the United States. http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html.
The difference is clear-
while pro-choicers argue about what is killed in an abortion,
pro-lifers grieve for who is killed and who is left behind.
U-104, but you’d wish everyone regretted their abortion, don’t you? Shame is your game. Hypocrisy is your name.
It’s great that Jane has exercised her free speech rights instead of just remaining silent about the deceit of the antiabortion crowd with signs showing late term aborted fetuses to try to give the impression that all abortions are like that.
Aaron: U-104, but you’d wish everyone regretted their abortion, don’t you?
Yes. We all wish parents would at least regret having killed their children. We prefer, however, that they would abstain from doing so in the first place.
Ben: the deceit of the antiabortion crowd with signs showing late term aborted fetuses to try to give the impression that all abortions are like that.
Still waiting on a rebuttal for all the signs with baby limbs on dimes to illustrate how small they are. THOSE are what early term abortions are like, and they show that EVERY abortion kills a very young human being-a child. That’s not deceit, it’s the truth, and I can’t believe you’re sitting here splitting hairs about how big a child is when you kill them. Late or early term, that child is still dead after an abortion.
Turns out Ben and Anon are the same person, X. Surprise, surprise.
Good. Then I’m glad I included both responses in one post. :P
As someone that was converted from pro-choice to pro-life by graphic abortion pictures, I can attest to the fact that they can be successful.
I really don’t get the argument that showing later term abortion photos is dishonest. That’s what a later term abortion looks like. I’ve never heard anyone try to say that all abortion victims look the exact same as that photo. But if you want someone to recognize the humanity of the unborn, why wouldn’t you use photos that get that point across at a quick glance?
Here’s a description of all the photos used in the Face The Truth Tour and those descriptions state how many of each type of abortion happen per year in the US:
http://www.prolifeaction.org/truth/signs.php
Please pick one name and stick with it Anon/Brian/Patricia. It is difficult to believe that you will be having an abortion this Saturday given that your original moniker was a man’s name.
Also, I have to wonder what in X’s argument convinced you that abortion is morally permissible. You are basing your “decision to get an abortion” this Saturday on the intellect rather than emotions or worse yet, spite, correct?
Hi Hisman. I haven’t been on this blog in a while and was tickled to see your update on the grandbaby. So thrilled for you and your family. God bless you.
Very interesting posts. Seems like the same old Dead Babies R Us crew come here to present the same old circular “any woman who wants a dead baby should be guaranteed to get one” argument.
I do feel very sad about “Jane” and her whole “see my abortion ain’t it great” episode although I believe that she will come to regret her “choice”. My friends and relatives who have shared their abortion experience sure have suffered and had to receive healing. Hopefully and prayerfully she will receive healing one day.
Reflecting back over the last 3 1/2 years I find it interesting that the POTUS says that his “gospel” has changed, which fit in with his so-called ”above my pay grade” quip to Rick Warren at Saddleback Church when he was trying to get elected vs. his policies of unfettered mutilation, search and destroy of the unborn. This fits in very nicely with his “”evolving” on “marriage” when before getting elected it was ” I believe marriage is between one man and one woman and as a Christian I believe that God is in the mix” line to Rick Warren vs. I now believe in “same-sex marriage”. I am not a Romney fan (I am not absolutely sure of what he will do on many issues) but if ever I had a reason to speak with my vote this November I would say this year is it. If you think BHO has caused havoc now you ”ain’t seen nothing yet”, if he get re-elected his real allegiance to death and destruction of the inborn and to the family will be unleashed with a vengence. Hold your nose if you must but vote against more death. For those who are “pro-same-sex marriage” and don’t get the connection against life and marriage I can only pray that your spiritual eyes will be opened to the intentional still births of unborn human babies and the intentional sterile “unions” that can never be “marriages” no matter how much you bend and contort your mindset to be politically correct. To those who say there is no harm done, the forced indoctrination, moral decadance going on in public schools, the work place and military intimidation and the lawsuits against those who stand for traditional marriage have only just begun. Students are now relating to me since the LGBT clubs have begun in public schools they see open displays of behaviors they had not seen before; full open mouth kissing by LGB students (which should not be tolerated even if done by heterosexual students), walking up on anal sex in school and teachers are afraid to discipline because they are going to be called “homophobic, bigots” or may even be sued for “discrimination”. I am not talking about San Francisco or New York but suburbia in mainstream America. When have we ever celebrated the “sexual behavior” of any student, let alone started clubs promoting sexual behavior? Call me any name you want but these situations are real, they are affecting our kids and will destroy them. ”Righteousness exalts a nation but sin is a reproach (a disgrace, a shame) to any people”. Sorry for long post. Life and family are connected Pope John Paul II was correct in his Theology of the Body.
BB,
I find it very flattering that a stranger is willing to get ground-breaking surgery in order to change their sex to a functional female just to get an abortion to spite me.
Denise, nobody is trying to claim that adoption is the perfect solution. It is usually better for a child to be raised by his/her birth-parents. But in some cases, adoption is the best possible option for both mother and child. When a child already has been conceived, the mother is left with only three available options: killing the child (which is an unacceptable act of violence, so should always be ruled out), placing the child in someone else’s care, or keeping the baby herself. She had more options before conception, and some of them may have been better given her circumstances. But things don’t always go according to plan, and you must choose the best from a more limited set of alternatives (this sounds sort of like voting in a presidential election).
You’ve listed several adoptees who have become criminals. These anecdotes constitute misleading vividness. I could just as well list several adopted people who have gone on to be highly successful (see: Nelson Mandela, John Lennon, Jamie Foxx, Nancy Reagan, Bill Clinton, Faith Hill, Sarah McLachlan, Steve Jobs, Willie Nelson, Elanor Roosevelt). So the sword cuts the other way too.
Regarding your statistics (that adoptees are 15 times more likely to kill a parent than other people), I’m pretty sure that very few people ever kill their parents. 15 times an infinitesimal portion is still a very small number (this is similar to the “abortion is nine times safer than childbirth” line of arguments). I’d like to see what percentage of prison inmates come from broken homes. Considering that adoption often prevents children from being raised in broken homes, it’s likely that adoption prevents death and horror.
I did comment on her website and told her I was sorry she felt that this was the best decision she could have made and that if she ever came to the point of regretting her decision I hoped she would find a pregnancy center that offers help to post abortive women (I also told her that I was post abortive and have for the last 5 years or so worked with such women). Unfortunately, she is deleting most, if not all, pro-life comments.
Navi says:
July 9, 2012 at 3:03 pm
Denise, nobody is trying to claim that adoption is the perfect solution. It is usually better for a child to be raised by his/her birth-parents. But in some cases, adoption is the best possible option for both mother and child. When a child already has been conceived, the mother is left with only three available options: killing the child (which is an unacceptable act of violence, so should always be ruled out), placing the child in someone else’s care, or keeping the baby herself. She had more options before conception, and some of them may have been better given her circumstances. But things don’t always go according to plan, and you must choose the best from a more limited set of alternatives (this sounds sort of like voting in a presidential election).
(Denise) There is a problem because for the child to live, the woman must CARRY and GIVE BIRTH. I have talked to those from whom the death of the fetus was inevitable because they simply weren’t going to complete the pregnancy. As Eleanor Cooney has said, it was the “PREGNANCY ITSELF” that she found unacceptable. The status of adoption was “quite irrelevant” — her words — because she was not going to carry. Thus, the fetus was doomed from conception. Abortion couldn’t be “ruled out” because she wasn’t going to carry.
<<You’ve listed several adoptees who have become criminals. These anecdotes constitute misleading vividness. I could just as well list several adopted people who have gone on to be highly successful (see: Nelson Mandela, John Lennon, Jamie Foxx, Nancy Reagan, Bill Clinton, Faith Hill, Sarah McLachlan, Steve Jobs, Willie Nelson, Elanor Roosevelt). So the sword cuts the other way too.>>
(Denise) Yes, there are many happy and successful adopted people. However, the STATISTICAL LINK between adoption and serial murder is extremely strong. They are 2-3% of the population and 16% of serial murderers. This isn’t anecdotal but a significant statistical link. Of course, many other things also correlate with serial murder such as being bullied as a child, being molested or raped, being a bed wetter, and other things. But adoption is strongly connected with this horror.
<<Regarding your statistics (that adoptees are 15 times more likely to kill a parent than other people), I’m pretty sure that very few people ever kill their parents. 15 times an infinitesimal portion is still a very small number (this is similar to the “abortion is nine times safer than childbirth” line of arguments). I’d like to see what percentage of prison inmates come from broken homes. Considering that adoption often prevents children from being raised in broken homes, it’s likely that adoption prevents death and horror.>>
(Denise) Many prison inmates are the children of single mother or come from divorced homes. There are many things that connect with criminality.
Part of the reason I place emphasis on avoiding problem pregnancies in the first place is that no matter how repulsed many people are by abortion, some women say that they simply weren’t going to carry to term. The only way to prevent abortion in those cases is to ensure such women don’t get pregnant.
Chris A:
the range is from 6-12 weeks. Not simply, 12 weeks+
Ben:
Welcome to the party, apparently you missed the point!
See entire post: Blessing July 8, 2012 at 2:09 am regarding early abortions with pics validated by ME’s, pathologists etc. The FACT is abortion MURDERS babies no matter how small or large they are.
Why the HELL can’t people see how abortion hurts women, murders babies and destroys families?????
Wake up people and stop drinking the damn kool-aid.
Abortion is a money making industry. Period. It does not follow the Hyppocratic Oath, it does not follow Ambulatory Care surgery procedures, it generally does not have licensed personell, the staff are often societal outcasts (history of crimes, drug abuse etc), women are often injured and sent to emergency rooms for care for which the abortionists suffers 0 consequences etc. The list of how this is just a “shell” of a medical care industry goes on and on. Wake up!
This isn’t about poliltics, about women’s rights, race, sex, economics this is about destroying your brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, aunts, uncles etc. These are NOT faceless, blobs of tissue–they are YOUR Family, friends, and neighbors!! Wake the HELL up!!! And stop arguing about the stupid small S*&T and start saving some damn lives and helping these women and babies in need!! That is Noble–your position is simply absurd. Move on, if you are not going to contribute to helping.
“Turns out Ben and Anon are the same person, X. Surprise, surprise.”
The last little while has been the attack of the multi-headed trolls around here. Did someone dump nuclear waste under a bridge by any chance?
Denise’s tenacious hold on her “adoptees are vicious killers” belief is truly sickening. She read ONE lousy book and despite a mountain of evidence that proves adoption is superior to abortion, she is emotionally committed to her belief.
Michelle PRCED, congratulations on reaching 60 likes! I think that’s the most I’ve ever seen on this site.
Wait so you proudly display for everyone to see that you KILLED an innocent child? One that you being the skank that you probably are sat there and got yourself knocked up just to kill a poor innocent baby…. I hope all these comments majake you you so depressed that kill yourself, its the only thing that will quench my hate for you, you are a worthless, spineless , yellow bellied witch, I have another list of names for you but they will be censored on this site.
“Jade Sides” is what we call a “moby”, on the internet, children. Please familiarize yourself with this variety of troll:
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=moby
Obviously a leftist (probably post-abortive), echoing their internal dialogue and pretending it comes from us. I would not trade places with them for all the tea in China. Have mercy on yourself, sad creature.
Ah, thank you x. The comment was majaking me very confused. LOL!
On July 9, 2012 at 9:38 am, Denise Noe wrote:
Perhaps greeting card companies should bring out new lines of Mother’s Day cards. These would be for girls and women who gave embryos and fetuses the shaft. “Jane’s” pic of a bloodied jar could be on the cover of these fatally expelled embryo/fetus Mother’s Day cards.
I usually give Mother’s Day cards to my mother. I can’t do that if I’m dead. I give the card–any card–to anyone–because I acknowledge a relationship and want to express love of some kind in an appropriate way. Perhaps only Jesus Christ could write the card if in a relationship similar to what you describe, wishing happiness to one’s murderers. Loving one’s enemies is not natural.
I agree that there is much sacrifice in being a mother. Some women accept their motherhood; others don’t. I think you want to make a distinction between good and bad mothers, or between supported and deceived mothers.
You also refer to girls as those who can get pregnant (become mothers), but girls should not be mothers. If a girl has become a mother, then she will require greater support to carry her baby for nine months and, if all goes well, to give it up for adoption. She will also require further support and protection so that she doesn’t repeat her mistake.
ninek says:
July 9, 2012 at 8:46 pm
Denise’s tenacious hold on her “adoptees are vicious killers” belief is truly sickening. She read ONE lousy book and despite a mountain of evidence that proves adoption is superior to abortion, she is emotionally committed to her belief.
(Denise) I never said “adoptees are vicious killers.” I have repeatedly made the point that there is a STRONG STATISTICAL LINK between adoption and serial murder as well as adoption and parricide.
WHEN have I ever said “abortion is superior to adoption”? I have never said this.
I don’t believe in an abortion-adoption dichotomy. Indeed, as I specifically pointed out, neither David Berkowitz nor Joel Rifkin has said, “I wish I’d been aborted.” What they HAVE said is that they wish they had NOT been placed for adoption.
Adoption CANNOT be done pre-natally — at least at this time. It can only be done AFTER a girl or woman has CARRIED TO TERM and GIVEN BIRTH. If the problem is the “pregnancy ITSELF,” then adoption is irrelevant. Eleanor Cooney has said the status of adoption was “quite irrelevant” because she “wasn’t going to complete the pregnancy.”
I’ve never had an abortion, nor have I placed for adoption, simply because I’ve never been pregnant.
Ok so I will admit that my previous comment was a little over the top, but I am fully against abortion simply because there are tons of people out there who would give anything to have a baby because they aren’t able to concieve. I mean what kind of person would deliberately get pregnant knowing they didnt want the baby , just to let it live and thrive in her stomache for 13 weeks just to kill it to ” make a point”. If it has a heartbeat ang it does even just days after conception, it is murde… point blank period.
Thanks, JDC! Just sharing from my heart. Two of my clients chose life for their little ones today- love wins!
Xalisae- I agree, good catch!
Lesson #1 for Jade Moby- when pretending to be pro-life, it’s good to remember that real prolifers treasure all innocent human life including mothers and unborn babies. I hope one of Jill’s mods deletes your vile words and that you come to realize that love is our source, our motivation and our goal. Come join the life side- it’s amazing over here! :)
Whether the abortion produced a jar that looked like pictures she had seen before or not, this is a sad day. That a young woman can so callously end a life says a lot about our society. I grieve not only for her baby, but for her soul. As an adopted child I can’t tell you how grateful I am that my birth mom spared my life.
I hear you Jade, it sounds like infertility concerns you greatly. It is very sad, particularly when the couple can’t have babies through no fault of their own, as theres lots of evidence linking prior abortions and sexually transmitted infections to fertility issues.
However, abortion would be just as evil if there were no infertile couples hoping for babies. Abortion is evil because it takes human life, period.
Women like “Jane” need to hear the truth in love.
Jeffriesboys, if your mother had aborted you, you wouldn’t know it. So, your statement is kind of moot.
Jade Sides, there are plenty of children waiting to be adopted out there. Of course, they aren’t the “new models” off the showroom floor. Those who can’t have children seem to want the “cute little babies” and not someone else’s pre-owned foster kids, don’t they?
“Jeffriesboys, if your mother had aborted you, you wouldn’t know it. So, your statement is kind of moot.”
Yeah Jeffriesboys! So don’t you dare express your gratitude for your life! Because if you weren’t alive, you wouldn’t know you weren’t alive, so you can’t be happy that you are alive. Ya know?
Pfft. Pro-choice logic is strange.
No no, thats the thing about it, I have no problem with fertility. I have had 3 kids, My two year old little boy, who is the light of my life, I had a little girl that died of sids at only a month and 10 days old, and then I just had another little girl back in January that I gave up for adoption to a wonderful couple in Kentucky who could not conceive. I could have taken the easy way out and had an abortion but the most unselfish act a mother could ever do appealed to me more, I gave someone the second best gift anyone could ever recieve, my first comment I am completely ashamed of, I commented out of anger and frustration. I just dont understand, why anyone would take a growing childs life into their hands and end it to prove a political point. I mean would anyone who was sane take a two year old and drill a and kill them to achieve the goal desired. Whether the child is 12 weeks or 12 months, it is still a child, Havng lost a child to an unknowncause of death really brought into perspective for me just how fragile a life is. I would do almost anything to have my little girl back, and then I wake up everyday and get to see my precious little boy, and it just makes me so sad to see that people no matter of religious or political background can be so blind and callous to this issue, I can be over zealous at times, but its just because I have experienced the other way to deal with n unplanned pregnancy. It may be harder physically to carry a child for 9 months and then let someone you dont really know take him/her, but its so much more rewarding. And you dont have that pitting guilt in your stomach for taking a life that was meant to be.
Matt, the most revealing part of your quote are these words: “seem to want”
Most abortion defenders who knock adoption don’t really know anything about adoption in the world today. They have a quaint Dickensonian view of the sea of waifs out there combined with a commercial view of what a child is. The reality is that thousands, perhaps millions, of US households are willing to adopt and waiting to adopt. The trouble is that the abortion industry is killing them faster than families can adopt. Also, many children in foster care are NOT available because their parents still have some rights.
Matt may want to join us here in 2012 where thousands of families wait for children that will never come home.
Jeffriesboys, if your mother had aborted you, you wouldn’t know it. So, your statement is kind of moot.
Not in the least, it isn’t. The fact that I wouldn’t know I was dead the day after being killed doesn’t mean that my death would or should be of no consequence to anyone, and that also doesn’t mean I have no right to be happy and grateful to be alive here and now.
Ninek, there are over 100,000 children in the foster care system that are available for adoption. Many wait for years.
“The trouble is that the abortion industry is killing them faster than families can adopt. ”
You can hardly lay the blame on abortion. What is the percentage of women who are talked out of abortion at clinics who give up the later born child for adoption? How many decide to raise them instead?
Face it. Many couples wanting to adopt don’t want to forego the cute cuddly baby stage. Adopting foster kids is also taking on other people’s problems.
Okay, Matt. Then how about we compromise by outlawing abortion, and then later letting the kids in foster care decide if they’d rather be dead themselves than be in foster care!
“Pfft. Pro-choice logic is strange.”
Pro-choice logic, now there’s a contradiction in terms!
And for Michelle PRDC , I don’t pretend to be pro life, by the choice I made to not kill my child and do the RIGHT thing for her instead I am and forever will be pro life by that action of unconditional love I had for a child that I loved from the moment I laid eyes on her and heard that first heartbeat on that ultrasound machiene, it tore me apart to know that I had just lost a little girl, qnd here I was blessed with anotherone that I could not care for and give her everything she deserved and needed. So call me what you want, I dont really care much for politics, but I do know what my heart tells me is right and wrong.
ninek says:
July 10, 2012 at 12:02 pm
Matt, the most revealing part of your quote are these words: “seem to want”
Most abortion defenders who knock adoption don’t really know anything about adoption in the world today. They have a quaint Dickensonian view of the sea of waifs out there combined with a commercial view of what a child is. The reality is that thousands, perhaps millions, of US households are willing to adopt and waiting to adopt.
(Denise) Ninek, you seem to mistake ME for an “abortion defender” who “knocks adoption.” That isn’t the case at all. I recognize that adoption will always be necessary. For one thing, some mothers will make the ultimate sacrifice as they die in childbirth. I point out the FACT that there are strong statistical links between adoption and serial murder and adoption and parricide. Adoption can create a sense of a kind of splintered identity.
The truth is that if we decrease problem pregnancies, we will decrease BOTH abortion and adoption. David Berkowitz shot women who were in lovers’ lanes because he feared they might conceive and place babies for adoption. It is also true that they might conceive and abort. If a conception occurs under optimal circumstances — a happily married, financially stable woman who wants to have a baby — it is quite unlikely that EITHER abortion or adoption will result.
However, if a woman finds after having a baby that she simply can’t raise, she should be able to place for adoption. No one is suggesting that this option be legally withdrawn. I am for her ability to place for adoption. I also support open adoption because it takes the secrecy and mystery out of this practice.
It is quite possible that, after we eliminate unplanned pregnancies, there will still be women who have babies and realize that they can’t raise them or don’t want to raise them. There will inevitably be mothers dying in childbirth. Thus, adoption will continue to exist after abortion has been pretty much eliminated.
However, it has always been true and will continue to be true that placing for adoption will be a rarity because of the bond formed during the pregnancy. Indeed, even girls and women planning to place for adoption will often change their minds after going through birth.
Jane did not avoid becoming a mother by terminating and filming her unwanted child. She is now the mother of her dead baby.
Like I said Matt, get some real facts on the issue.
“You can hardly lay the blame on abortion. What is the percentage of women who are talked out of abortion at clinics who give up the later born child for adoption? How many decide to raise them instead?”
The answer, according to Planned Parenthood’s OWN statistics is: Less than 1/2 of one percent. For every adoption referal PP claims to have made, over 900 babies die at PP businesses. And um, yes, do blame abortion for over 60 million dead babies. Last time I checked, unwanted babies didn’t just pack up a tiny suitcase and take the bus out of their mothers’ wombs. Just ask Stericycle. They do much of the carting-away.
Thisismyabortion????
This is not “Jane’s” abortion. Abortion is only the procedure she paid big bucks to have done.
She should rename her site “thisistheliquidformofmydeadchildaftermyabortionprocedure”
Adoption facts: of the available children in foster care 36 couples wait for every one (1 )baby to be available.
http://www.lifenews.com/2012/07/09/thirty-six-couples-wait-for-every-one-baby-who-is-adopted/
ninek says:
July 10, 2012 at 1:14 pm
Like I said Matt, get some real facts on the issue.
“You can hardly lay the blame on abortion. What is the percentage of women who are talked out of abortion at clinics who give up the later born child for adoption? How many decide to raise them instead?”
(Denise) Ninek, I think the point is that the VAST majority of girls and women who carry to term and give birth will RAISE their babies. Very, very rarely will anyone place for adoption. As I’ve pointed out, the experience of carrying to term and giving birth forms an automatic, natural bond between mother and child. This is seen by the fact that the mother’s body is prepared to nourish the baby with breast milk.
Both baby and mother have become attached to each other through the biological process of carrying to term. This makes adoption a rarity — and problematic when it does occur. Of course, it is also inevitable because some mothers will die in childbirth and a very small number won’t want to raise.
ninek, you cite a statistic that doesn’t apply to my statement, which concerned women talked out of abortion and giving birth then raising the child versus giving the child up for adoption.
Blessing, waiting for the “new babies”. What is wrong with some of those waiting couples going for the three-year old kids in foster care?
“What is wrong with some of those waiting couples going for the three-year old kids in foster care?”
Why, nothing at all is wrong with that. According to adoption statistics, 98% of children adopted from foster care are at least 1 year old.
http://www.adoptioninstitute.org/FactOverview.html
Lrning, there are over 100,000 kids in the foster care system that can be adopted now.
Why don’t each of the 36 couples waiting for the 1 new baby bring joy into their lives by adopting an older child first?
I mean, even 6 year old need families, too.
Why don’t each of the 36 couples waiting for the 1 new baby bring joy into their lives by adopting an older child first?
I don’t know. You’d have to ask them.
So, how are you helping to solve the plight of all those foster children awaiting adoption?
Lrning says:
July 10, 2012 at 3:04 pm
Why don’t each of the 36 couples waiting for the 1 new baby bring joy into their lives by adopting an older child first?
I don’t know. You’d have to ask them.So, how are you helping to solve the plight of all those foster children awaiting adoption?
(Denise) It is very difficult to “solve” it. For one thing, their mothers don’t necessarily want to sign away custody permanently. Often a mother who is sick or in financial straits finds herself unable to care for her child but hopes that she will be able to care for them in the future after her health or financial situation improves. The children are not eligible for adoption because their mother retains custody.
Ok, I’m not going to go in circles when you don’t even read your own comments. Just to show you:
“What is the percentage of women who are talked out of abortion at clinics who give up the later born child for adoption?” which is one of two QUESTIONS that you raised in your comment, and of the two I’ve answered the ONE to which I knew the answer. But if you want me to speculate how many times in the last year has a Planned Parenthood counselor convinced an abortion-minded mother to go home and raise her own child? I’m gonna guess ZERO.
What’s your point, Matt?
I’m pro-life, whether or not I have adopted a foster child. Adopting a foster child is NOT some kind of mandatory requirement for wanting to end abortion. Abortion should end because it’s human-on-human murder. And the foster care system? Obviously it needs improvement, but abortion isn’t the solution. Abortion solves nothing at all except the cash flow problems of abortionists.
Well, that’s it for me today. Matt, meet Denise. Denise, Matt likes to talk about adoption. So do you. Talk amongst yourselves. Maybe Matt will give a rat’s tail about your serial killer theory.
Ninek: I don’t have any “serial killer theory.” What I did was point out a strong statistical link between adoption and serial murder.
Nor do I particularly “like to talk about adoption.” Adoption and abortion have little relationship to each other.
Matt,
Your adoption stats are wrong.
There are 115,000 children in foster care elgible for adoption.
There are 600,000 couples seeking to adopt. The 1/35 stat is for babies only. So the remainder of the 600,000 is for other children. Fix the System!!! Defund PP and stop letting our tax dollars fund embryonic and fetal cell research. stop funding the UNFP and abortion policies overseas, stop the Mexico City policy and paying for those abortions!!!!!!!!!!!
This is PUBLICLY available info.
US Dept of Health and Human Services CDC 2008. Adoption Experiences of Women and MEn and Demand for Children to ADopt by Women 18-44 years of Age in teh US. 2002. Vital and Health Statistics 23. No. 27. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/series/sr_23/sr23_027.pdf
AND
US Dept of Health and Human Services, Administration for Children and Families. 2010, July 29. Trends in Foster Care and Adoption FY 2002-FY 2009. http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/ch/stats_research/afcars/trends.htm.
I know TWO families right now who have adopted older children. They both went out of the country to adopt becuase here in the US we spend our tax dollars to murder babies instead of fixing the adoption system or supporting crisis pregnancy centers.
Adoption is not a prerequisite to be prolife.
Some of us pray,
some of us donate to various places,
some of us do foster care,
some of us volunteer our time to educate others or stand vigils,
some of us take pregnant women into our homes,
some of us work at Crisis pregnancy centers,
Some of us are involved in the Respect LIfe group of our churches,
some of us pay for sonograms for at risk moms,
some of us document clinic abuse to start legal cases,
some of us patiently, oh so patiently try to educate folks like you
some of us adopt
some of us race a prolife car to bring awarenes–OH MY a MOM that races. Doh, yep for real.
some of us counsel the at risk moms
some of us run crisis pregnancy hotlines
some of us donate professional skills and talents to help the moms and babies.
Which ones do you do to help babies?
I do several of these, and many of the folks on here do the same
You are CLASSIC prochoice–throwing out one topic after another but never conceding nor offering your own research…just throwing random info out and changing topics.
Matt, you don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Here are a couple facts for you.
1) Most of the kids in foster care ARE NOT ELIGIBLE for adoption because parental rights haven’t been terminated. I know because my sister wanted to adopt and looked into foster care.
2) The foster system does not want kids adopted by large families (and domestic adoption in general). My sister and her husband have 4 kids and while they have a nice home and can provide for children they were basically told nope, we’re not even gonna consider you because your family is too big.
So stop spreading your misinformation, PLEASE. You are just a parrot repeating the mindless, baseless dribble you heard from some other pro-abort and nothing you said is remotely true.
*drivel
CC: “One cannot claim a miscarried/aborted fetus on one’s income tax returns.” Actually the last time I did my state Taxes in Arizona, they had a spot where you could claim a stillborn so that is not entirely true.
Ha ha, X, you’re right! I didn’t notice I typed that. I was probably talking to my son while I typed. You know what I meant though.
Sydney M., Blessing and others, it’s obvious YOU are all the ones parroting and running around in circles.
http://www.cakidsconnection.org/
58,000 foster kids in California ALONE.
Other sites say more than 100,000 across the country READY to be adopted.
No, Sydney M., I am not the parrot. I believe you might be, however. And, I “spread misinformation”? Your 2) has nothing to do with childless couples waiting to adopt new babies.
Blessing, your post runs around in circles.
Now, everyone, whatever you contend are your statistics, why are there childless couples waiting for the new “models” rather than applying to adopt the pre-owned foster kids? Do they want the “cuddly” kids instead of the ones that could have problems?
When you can’t answer the question, or when if you are so ingrained with your dogma, you bring out the spinning tops.
Now, everyone, whatever you contend are your statistics, why are there childless couples waiting for the new “models” rather than applying to adopt the pre-owned foster kids? Do they want the “cuddly” kids instead of the ones that could have problems?
Why are you asking us this question? There are probably as many answers as there are couples waiting to adopt infants. And why are you speaking of human beings as if they are used cars?
And how are you helping to solve the plight of all those foster children awaiting adoption?
Lrning, the used car reference is a metaphor.
I am asking the question because of the whining about childless couples having to wait so long for newborns.
I am asking the question because of the whining about childless couples having to wait so long for newborns.
Where you hear “whining about childless couples having to wait so long for newborns” I hear a lament that babies are being killed instead of given up for adoption, where hundreds of thousands of couples are waiting to love them.
Are you really surprised that childless couples seem to want to start their parenting vocation with an infant? Are you a parent?
Many of those foster kids aren’t up for adoption because the mother still has parental rights.
The ‘whining’ about childless couples waiting to adopt a baby is applicable (even more so than adoption in general) for the pro-life vs pro-abortion debate because the conversation is about *babies*. Thankfully, so far, there is not a strong political movement running around saying parents should be able to kill ‘unwanted’ 6 year olds. There is for babies. That people, hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of couples *want* babies and wait long periods for them puts the lie to the pro-abort position that aborted babies are ‘unwanted’ or would end up in squalid orphanges or over burdened foster homes. It’s a bald faced lie. A baby up for adoption, regardless of skin tone, heritage, health, or deformity, has hundreds of loving parents waiting for the oppertunity to care for them. That’s what’s relevent to the abortion debate. While sad, how many 5, 7, or 17 year olds are in the foster care system ‘availible’ for adoption isn’t relevent to the conversation at hand. When you’re in the middle of a debate about the right to kill a 5, 7, or 17 year old because the parents feel said child is ‘unwanted’, THEN those figures will be relevent.
Without actually looking at the foster/adoption situation with real-life glasses and not rose colored ones, however, the numbers are irrelevent to any conversation. There are *not* hundreds of thousands of eligible kids waiting to be adopted by loving couples. There are hundreds of thousands of eligible kids waiting to be adopted by couples pre-screened, selected, and approved by a secular, liberal, incredibly corrupt government organization. DCS (or whatever it’s called in a specific state), will not allow adoptions, as a general rule, to families with more than 2 kids already, to families who can’t/won’t provide a separate room for each child, to families who want to private or homeschool, to deeply religious families (or any ilk), to conservative families who believe in traditional values (and irronically to any ‘hippy’ or ‘crunchy’ family too far off the mainstream that might believe in non-vax, raw foods, unschooling, etc) to families considered ‘poor’, or to familes who believe in traditional forms of raising kids (responsibilities, duties, punishments). This is why 1) so many kids sit in foster care while 2) so many loving families adopt internationally. My husband and I have always wanted to adopt, and plan on adopting some day if we can afford it. But because we are Biblical Christian conservatives who believe in traditional, Biblical and American values, will be homeschooling, believe sibblings should share rooms, and already have 3 biological children, all those ‘eligible’ foster kids who we would gladly welcome into our home and take good care of are completely ineligible and offlimits to us. We, and the many other families we know who went out-of-country to adopt, will never be allowed to give a good ‘forever home’ to any American foster kid, if we want to help abandoned, abused, and/or orphaned children who need a loving home, our only choices are 1) a private adoption of an infant or 2) an international adoption. So, until the government *actually allows* families who want to adopt, to adopt from the foster care system, any discussion of how many ‘eligible’ kids wait in the foster care system is completely and utterly irrelevent to anything other than governmental abuses. The deeper irony is many of these families (as opposed to the simply rich who go international to find a baby) are equally anxious to welcome an older child into their home. My husband and I hope to adopt in the above 6 category, and, were we able to adopt out of the foster care system, would primarily be looking to home those kids close to aging out of the system, teenagers. But we will never have that chance, at least not when dealing with the U.S. foster system.
Lrning,
“Where you hear “whining about childless couples having to wait so long for newborns” I hear a lament that babies are being killed instead of given up for adoption, where hundreds of thousands of couples are waiting to love them.”
There is no the obligation to give those childless couples newborns. It’s ironic that many people who say children are a blessing from God will also not regard being childless as part of his Will or just accept it.
”Are you really surprised that childless couples seem to want to start their parenting vocation with an infant? ”
No, because having a cuddly, cute little infant is part of the “ego” satisfaction of parents.
“There is no the obligation to give those childless couples newborns.”
Of course there isn’t. Who said there was? But as Jespren explained quite thoroughly, babies that are aborted because they are “unwanted” are actually wanted by hundreds of thousands of couples.
“No, because having a cuddly, cute little infant is part of the “ego” satisfaction of parents.”
Bwahaha. Well, you didn’t answer my question about whether you’re a parent, but this statement tells me that you’re not.
So how about answering the question you’ve avoided several times now:
How are you helping to solve the plight of all those foster children awaiting adoption?
Jade, your original post has been deleted because you were saying that Jane deserved to be killed. Those are not the words of a pro-life person. It sounds like you have been through a lot and it could have been the trauma talking.
You are a hero for giving your little girl life and placing her with another family, but keep it going and learn to love all people, not just the ones who act the way you think they should. Jane deserves to keep her life as much as your baby does. I wish you peace and comfort as you work through your pain.
We are getting way off subject here, although the number of kids in the foster care system is outrageous and heartbreaking its not the subject at hand that we are dealing with…
LRning:
The “metaphor” of used car models….exemplifies his perspective on Life. Quite revealing.
Matt–
Your argument of why people don’t adopt the young babies has been blown out of the water and undoubtedly DISPROVEN with Lrning’s link. Can you admit that you have learned something?
Back to case in point–stop murdering babies because 1) They are precious, not used car models 2)no matter how you tweak the stats—there are more families wanting babies/kids/children/ than there are available!!!
So it debunks your claim that people don’t want to adopt older kids (irrelevant to abortion argument) AND it debunks the claim of “where will all these babies go.”
Abolish abortion. Period.
Fix the adoption system. Period.
Yes, we hold an uncompromising position, radical some might claim. Yes, because life is not negotiable and it demands our protection from conception to natural death.
Blessing, you said, “ Your argument of why people don’t adopt the young babies has been blown out of the water and undoubtedly DISPROVEN with Lrning’s link.’
Disproven the same as Flatearthers have with theirs.
Abolish abortion? Would there also be a requirement for women to give up children for adoption to smooth the egos of childless couples?
Blessing, how about going one step farther?
Abolish unplanned pregnancy. Period. Every pregnancy should be wanted by the woman who gets pregnant. Period.
Matt, wanting a baby is an “ego” thing? Good grief. Maybe people just want to experience the baby stage. It is exciting and rewarding and eases you into actual parenting as the child grows. THere is nothing wrong with wanting a BABY!
And my #2 argument dealt with your argument. You are arguing that because there are kids in foster care we should just kill them before birth. My point was that if foster care would allow families like my sister’s to adopt the kids then there would be far less kids waiting for families. The solution is to change the foster care system, not to kill the kids before birth.
DUH.
And how many kids have you adopted Matt?
Or maybe I should ask, how many children have you paid to be aborted, Matt? Because you seem to have serious baggage.
I guess everything is about ego when you are the center of your own universe. Projection much, Matt?
For all these responses you should REALLY be writing back to Jane herself – she will read your posts and it matters what each of you have been saying. I’ve just posted a quote #247 and I urge you to respond there as well.
GO to:
http://www.thisismyabortion.com/
Thank you!
Kathy
Sydney, I detect some projecting by you. Are you a psychologist? If so, how did you ever get a degree?
xalisae, no, what about you?
They’re mothers. Duh.
”Would there also be a requirement for women to give up children for adoption to smooth the egos of childless couples?”
No, because no one actually suggested anything like that. Why do your types love making up nonsense?
Meh. Apparently Matt is a pro-abort who doesn’t really care about foster children either. He just wants us to buy the whole “better dead than unwanted” garbage.
Matt:
“NO U.” is not a sufficient rebuttal. However, I am glad I was apparently able to teach you a new word. Enjoy.
Yep, it sure did boost my mom’s ego, all those poopy diapers. All the times she took care of me when I was sick must have been a big ego boost! Nurses? Oh, since they make a living taking care of people they must be the most biggest egomaniacs of all! You naughty narcissistic nurses and mothers, shame on you! LOL!
“Gosh, that Sandy, she’s so conceited!” “I know, those 2 am feedings have really gone to her head!”
So how about answering the question you’ve avoided several times now:
How are you helping to solve the plight of all those foster children awaiting adoption?
Matt,
You’ve already been given three neutral, independent of abortion links on adoption–you provided one. Your claim of “flatearthers’ goes further to support the Prolife cause than it does your own. There are 100,000 kids available for adoption. Lets assume that nubmer is wronge and give a HUGE margin of error. Assume that there are 300,000 kids available for adoption. That still is a 2/1 ratio of waiting couples to one child. There are 600,000 (at least) families wanting to adopt.
Again, if the number are wrong, off —-Then fix the SYSTEM!!!! Why does our nation know more about the number of babies we murder vs the number of babies that are adopted? Why do we spend more money on murdering them than we on saving them?
No matter how you look it it–the priorities are F*&^ed up.
And you STILL cannot admit that you might have learned something. That tells us that you are just trolling and NOT here to really educate yourself. Sure we have an agenda, to help the at risk moms and save babies–it is real deceptive, heh? Oh, I fogot all of us Women on here are in support of taking away our rights!
AND you still avoid the questions!!!
What have you done to help the adoption situation?
What have you done to help save the babys and at risk moms???
Kathy,
We have addressed that since she is deleting most prolife posts to write her email address.
What are you pro-choicers doing about the low quality of condoms? Why don’t you demand a better product? Don’t you think condom manufacturers are waging a war on women by the fact that they refuse to make a better product thus forcing women to pay hundreds, sometimes thousands, of dollars to “opt out of pregnany”?? Is that fair? Selling a woman or a man a $6 box of condoms that are intended to break, resulting in a $300-$3,000 abortion?! What are YOU doing about that???
or on a more serious note, what are you doing to help women who never desire having children to get their tubes tied, as many of them would LIKE but are routinely denied by DOCTORS for no other reasons than the doctor doesn’t think they really want that? How “patriarchal” is THAT, Matt? And, what are you doing to help?!
Ha ha ha, Ninek! My second son here is a spitter. I love walking around all day with various stains all over my shirt. EGO!
Matt, maybe I’m projecting.Well I would be if I had ever had an abortion. But I’ve noticed from years of talking with folks like you that inevitably it comes out that there is a dead baby haunting them that makes them so rabidly pro-abortion and arguing that it is better to be dismembered in the womb than end up in foster care. Happens all.the.time.
So anyhow you going to address the questions brought before you or make funny jokes about psychologists?
There is a problem because for the child to live, the woman must CARRY and GIVE BIRTH.
I’m well aware of that. Avoiding childbirth is not sufficient justification for killing someone.
I have talked to those from whom the death of the fetus was inevitable because they simply weren’t going to complete the pregnancy. As Eleanor Cooney has said, it was the “PREGNANCY ITSELF” that she found unacceptable. The status of adoption was “quite irrelevant” — her words — because she was not going to carry. Thus, the fetus was doomed from conception. Abortion couldn’t be “ruled out” because she wasn’t going to carry.
That’s a rather ridiculous statement. At least one of three things has to be true for that to even make sense:
1. The woman lacks a healthy uterus, or a spontaneous miscarriage before viability is inevitable. Given that we’re talking about elective abortion here, this isn’t generally the case.
2. Pregnancy threatens the mother’s life. This is extremely rare in modern medicine, so isn’t relevant here. The female version of the human body is biologically equipped to handle pregnancy and childbirth.
3. Women are nothing more than impulsive beasts, rather than rational moral agents with free will capable of choosing to do the right thing even under difficult circumstances. This is a very paternalistic and degrading view of women.
Imagine if someone said that rape is inevitable, because some men simply aren’t going to restrain themselves when they see women and become aroused sexually. Therefore, the only way to stop it is to make sure men are never in a situation where they are tempted to rape. Surely this is ridiculous. This is precisely because we understand that men have free will, and (barring cases of insanity) only rape women when they make a choice to commit a violent act. So we hold men responsible for their actions and rape is not tolerated in any just society. If we make the same assumption about women and free will, abortion should likewise be ruled out in any just society (irrespective of “wantedness” of any pregnancy).
As a side note, I find it interesting that you keep insisting that adoption is not a viable alternative to abortion when the very woman being discussed here admitted that the availability of safe abortion was the reason she didn’t choose adoption.
Yes, there are many happy and successful adopted people. However, the STATISTICAL LINK between adoption and serial murder is extremely strong. They are 2-3% of the population and 16% of serial murderers. This isn’t anecdotal but a significant statistical link. Of course, many other things also correlate with serial murder such as being bullied as a child, being molested or raped, being a bed wetter, and other things. But adoption is strongly connected with this horror.
I made that list to counter the anecdotes you cited (and continue to cite). Correlation does not imply causation, as we both agree that there are other factors involved. Since adoption might mean that the child isn’t raised in poverty or in a broken home, those statistics don’t do what you need them to. You have no factual basis for disparaging adoption.
Aaaaaand….they removed my comment about those pics STILL illustrating a dead child, as I know from personal experience that having had an abortion would’ve killed the now 10 year old girl I see before me. Cowards. All they want is a hugbox and pats on the butt “Good game, good game, oh yes, you did the right thing. We all did! No dead children here, no siree!”
Sad little cretins.
One thing that comes to mind is the horrors of the camps that sacrificed Jewish human beings at the altar of murderous animals…