Breaking, video: Abortion clinic security guard pepper-sprays pro-lifers
This morning pro-lifers were singing and praying in front of Mississippi’s lone remaining abortion clinic when a security guard pepper-sprayed three of them in the face.
The aggressor was Roy Benjamin, a private, armed security guard who works for Jackson Women’s Health Organization, in Jackson.
Clinic staff had placed an oscillating sprinkler on the public sidewalk to spray pro-lifers (also blocking the entrance to patrons).
Benjamin apparently became incensed after 15-yr-old Jim Zastrow put his shoe over the oscillator to keep it from spraying his father Cal, who was witnessing to mothers and staff on the public sidewalk next to it.
After Jim refused to move his foot, Benjamin suddenly and without warning left clinic property and shot first Jim and then Cal in the face with pepper spray.
When pro-lifer Doug Lane, who was videotaping the scene, told Benjamin, “Dude, you’re going to jail on that one, bro,” Benjamin pepper-sprayed him in the face as well.
All three were taken to the hospital, where they were treated for eye, throat, and facial irritation. All three have been released.
When I spoke with Cal, he was at the police station pressing charges. Good for him.
Here’s video of the incident:
[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrJLIx7zNRA[/youtube]
Here is how the incident was described on WAPTnews.com:
Jackson Police Department spokeswoman Officer Colendula Green said… when the three pro-life supporters came onto the property, the guard turned on a sprinkler and got them wet. The trio walked toward the guard and a verbal argument broke out between them, which resulted in the guard spraying them, she said.
Clinic officials said the sprinkler was there to water the grass….
“When you’ve got people screaming at the women who come in here and a governor who evidently thinks that’s OK, this is exactly what’s going to happen,” said clinic owner Diane Derzis.
Derzis said the guard felt threatened and defended himself.
Fortunately there is video to prove this was all totally fabricated.
And who waters their grass in 45 degree weather in January?
[HT: Leslie Hanks of The Passionate Pro-Lifer]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
This guard’s aggressive act is just as disrespectful and repulsive as these annoying men proselytizing. They are not pro-life. They are pro-proselytizing.
Pro-life is not proselytizing. Pro-life is bibical and not limited to a religious belief such as praying to Mary or Mohammed was a prophet.
Isaiah 43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yes, I have made him.
Now you know the truth.
I am staunchly pro life, and don’t have a problem with protesting at clinics so long as the protesters are respectful, PEACEFUL and go forward in love and humility. You could never convince me that the Jesus I love and worship would conduct himself the way these men are in the video. It’s protesters like these that really get under my skin because I believe they negate the whole purpose of being at the clinics when they get obnoxious and offensive. Should they have been sprayed with pepper spray? Probably not, but it’s hard for me to feel supportive of them (or sorry for them) when the video shows how disgraceful their conduct is. If I were a pregnant woman or staff member going by these guys to enter the clinic, I don’t think my heart would be softened by men screaming at me about the “love of Jesus” with big, ugly “holier than you” smirks on their faces, WHILE also taunting the security guard. I really believe many of these abortion protesters are motivated by love of stirring up “a fight” and controversy, rather than truly having hearts for pregnant moms, abortion clinic staff, and most importantly the unborn. They’re the ones who make the rest of honestly caring pro-lifers look like idiots. It makes me depressed.
In the face of love and truth what else is an abortion supporter to do? Praise the Lord for those on the sidewalks outside abortion mills willingly taking abuse to save innocent baby boys and girls while reaching out to the lost.
men like that are not going to be saving any innocent children with attitudes like that.
If pro-lifers were out in droves at the abortion mills and neighborhoods of the baby killers and their accomplices and singing and proclaiming the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, baby killing would end in America. But today’s milk toast, pew-warming, do-nothing, nicer-than-Jesus Christians are the reason preborn baby murder is still alive and well in this country. Preborn baby murder will end when the Church of Jesus Christ decides it will end. NO CHILD KILLING WITH TRANQUILITY!!!
I don’t think what the pro-lifers did was offensive per se, but it was not helpful to any pregnant women who might have been entering the clinic; calls to “repent” tend not to do that. The women are looking for a way out of their situation, and that’s what should be offered in a friendly, encouraging way.
The guard had no reason to get that angry, though, and his action was way out of line. I hope charges are pressed.
And if all these antics kept customers away from the clinic — well, good!
Ya’, just because Jesus and his disciples told people to repent doesn’t mean we should. :eyeroll:
So pepper spraying three innocent folks(one a 15 year old boy) in the face for no reason whatsoever is all good with the proaborts?
They must have somehow deserved it for being out there right?
Pressing charges? GOOD!!
*milquetoast
I enjoy “stirring up… controversy”, but I enjoy it BECAUSE I have a heart for the unborn. People who support their deaths SHOULD BE confronted-controversy SHOULD ensue because they are doing something and supporting something controversial. The children who have their lives stolen from them DESERVE to have someone-anyone-make a fuss over their slaughter. Now, calls to “Repent!” I don’t think would do any good, since I’m not religious. But undoubtedly, my words and actions do tend to rattle cages. However, they are cages that MUST be rattled if we want to end abortion in our lifetimes.
I’m just glad business was disrupted and charges are being pressed.
I don’t have any problem with what these pro-lifer’s were doing. Different strokes for different folks. The quit prayerful approach hasn’t been all that successful overall, maybe a more confrontational style is what is needed. I’ve been the quiet prayer guy saying my Rosary for years and I’m not convinced that’s the only way to do it. I plan on being more confrontational with staff at the clinics and doing my best to shame them publicly. These clinic workers pay their bills by helping the Dr. murder children, they deserve scorn and public ridicule. The rent a cop who pepper sprayed these gentlemen absolutely should go to jail for assault, no question.
This is outrageous ! The criminal who assaulted the 3 men on the sidewalk should be in jail tonight! We all should be calling the Jackson , MIssissippi police department in the morning and demanding it!
They were blocking the entrance, they were yelling at people and they had a camera because they had every intention of provoking a scene.
If I displayed the same behavior outside a church on a sunday morning what would happen first – would the police arrive and drag me off, would I be comprehensively physically assaulted or might I need to dodge a bullet?
what was a sprinkler doing in the middle of the public concrete sidewalk and in the middle of winter? If they are so concerned about the women walking in why, would they put that there? What a wimpy little security guard…WOMEN carry mace to protect themselves from vermin just like him! he sprayed the mace and ran away? wonder if the killing mill is paying him for his heroics? scary dude! shiver me timbers!
Get the padded room and white jacket ready. Someone thinks that if they pray outside a church, they are at risk of being arrested, assaulted or shot.
My parish would invite you in to pray but you’d be welcome to stay outside and praise Jesus if that’s your style. We have a prayer garden that’s quite nice but is rather cold this time of year.
Ha ha! :-) OK Praxedes, let me clarify for the obtuse.
If I blocked the entrance and started yelling anti-religious slogans at church-goers outside a church on a sunday morning what would happen first – would the police arrive and drag me off, would I be comprehensively physically assaulted or might I need to dodge a bullet?
Can you grasp the concept now Praxedes?
It’s illegal to block the entrance to a medical facility. Ever heard of FACE? They were doing no such thing. You can offer an intelligent opinion if you’re capable, but embellishing in an attempt to make a point only gives the appearance of foolishness on your part.
Reality, are the people going into the church killing innocent little ones? what are you trying to convey here with your ridiculous scenario?
And They’re coming to take you away Ha HaThey’re coming to take you away ho ho he he ha haTo the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time and you’ll be happy to see those nice men in their clean white coatsThey’re coming to take you away Ha HaTo the happy home with trees and flowers and chirping birds and basket weavers who sit and smile and twiddle thier thumbs and toesThey’re coming to take you away Ha Ha Ha
I thought that about the sprinkler too, Maria. Why water a sidewalk in winter? Who is paying that water bill?
Maria, in both instances people are partaking of legal and legitimate services conducted by legal and legitimate providers. My bet is that I would be subject to more aggression and downright physical harm than what protesters outside reproductive health clinics face.
Ah, your usual considered and intellectual response Praxedes. Maybe the funny farm is the one place your dream of abortion ending could appear real :-)
Murder is neither legal nor legitimate.
Blessings to the pro-life warriors in this video who stand up against evil in the name of Jesus. It goes without saying that anybody who works for PP is by definition mentally unstable.
No, murder isn’t either legal or legitimate Scott, but abortion is. Your response adds weight to my thoughts on the likely outcome in the scenario I proposed.
Unbelievable! This is just another example of how people that believe in abortion don’t care if they hurt other people or for others health. That’s awful!
http://www.avoiceforhope.com/
Abortion sheds innocent blood. Shedding innocent blood is illegal. Therefore, abortion is illegal.
Yes, very nice Scott. Create your own little logic trail, that’s fine. Take it to court.
Abortion is legal and legitimate. Going to church is legal and legitimate.
I still bet I’d be facing greater risk protesting outside a church than anti-choicers do outside health clinics.
You could have said, “Take it to court,” to an abolitionist during America’s slavery years. What does court have to do with something being legal or illegal?
Healthcare doesn’t kill people, true healthcare is to help HEAL not to kill. And this facility is endangering public health by purposely wetting a public sidewalk in the middle of winter. That’s just ridiculous.
Praxedes, Just hearing the name of Jesus really gets these PP nutters wound up.
Maybe the sprinkler will cause the sidewalk to ice over and someone will fall and sue that abortion biz for all they’re worth.
I cannot believe that many pro-lifers on this page are turning against their own because they aren’t using certain preferred methods of SWC. Shame on this officer and I, for one, stand with these men!
“What does court have to do with something being legal or illegal?’ – ???
I take it you’re a vegan then Scott, since you believe that “Shedding innocent blood is illegal”. And that would make Bush Jnr a criminal.
Eric, they are not prolifers. They are trying to cause trouble like our resident nutter.
Eric,
The guy who sprayed that pepper spray on these people is a lot like the guy in that sick ad ‘celebrating’ 40 years of legalized abortion. And they are both poster children for the real war on women that is taking place in our society. He celebrates women who will prove their love for him by choosing to abort any children they might conceive. He shows his love for women by celebrating 40 years of ripping babies from their mother’s wombs in bloodied pieces. While liberals and Democrats accuse pro-lifers as engaging in a war on women because we protest the barbaric mutilation and killing that is occuring legally over 3000 times a day in the US. Men like these pro-lifer’s would sooner drink the pro-aborts pepper spray and spit it back in their face rather then allow the holocaust to continue in tranquility. I salute them and would be proud to join them protesting outside the abortion mill.
@ ‘reality’: There lies YOUR problem, it is in your mindset. You very easily equate an abortion/murder mill with a Church. Wow! Sad.
‘gun control’ is like attempting to reduce drunk driving by making it more difficult for sober drivers to own cars.
Even tho they tend to be more indiscriminate in who their victims will be , ‘drunk drivers’ still manage to kill many children.
I was hesitant to re-post this little gem because the liberal/progressive/democRAT humanists are already dead set on forcing more people out of their own cars and into mass transit and I did not want to inadvertently assist them in their endeavor.
But in my estimation, the value of the manifest irony and therapeutic humor outweighed the inherent risk.
I do think their method of witnessing was a bit obnoxious. I am not sure if the clinic would have been any nicer to quiet people praying. Pepper spray was uncalled for. This guard had no reason to fear for his safety.
Hey reality, animals are neither innocent nor guilty. [HINT: They’re not human beings] Try telling a lion it should go vegan.
Musicbringsjoy, quiet people praying don’t save babies or souls. Jesus told the woman at the well that not only was the man she was shacking up with not her husband, but she had 5 husbands before that guy. Was Jesus being obnoxious or just telling the truth to drive home a point like the people at the abortion mill were doing?
Churches and wombs are very much alike. Warm, inviting, safe and a place to grow. EXCEPT when you are walking into an abortion clinic. then not so much. :(
What exactly would you be doing or saying outside of my place of worship Reality?
Just curious.
I would ask you if you would like to come in out of the cold(-11)and have some coffee and a donut with me and my family. Let’s talk.
So disappointed at the first 5 or so “pro-life” comments. Peaceful protesters (yes, they were peaceful. They were not rioting or violating any law) were maced and all you can do is criticize the conduct of the pro-lifers? Nevermind that children were being slaughtered inside. You need to pause for a second and ask yourself why you’re pro-life and consider what – precisely – an abortion clinic …does.
Praxedes, Just hearing the name of Jesus really gets these PP nutters wound up.
I always found they tend to wig out when I tell them I’m not religious. All their trolling attempts are geared towards religious people. It knocks them off their game in a big way.
freygal says: January 23, 2013 at 6:36 pm “You could never convince me that the Jesus I love and worship would conduct himself the way these men are in the video.”
So when the Prince of Peace purposely wove cords into a whip while his disciples and the assembled worshippers observed and then used that whip to drive the interlopers from the temple all the while excoriating them as ’thieves’ did HE do it with limp wrists and a plaintiff pleading castratti voice?
I will clarify for those unfamiliar with this place: this little gate in the video is not the main entrance. Everyone goes in and out a bit farther down this sidewalk, where the fence ends at the driveway. This fence goes along the front of the building and that gate is usually closed. The sidewalk counselors stand along the side walk and talk to the women through this fence as they walk along the front of the building and into the door which is directly in front of this little gate. The sprinkler was out in the public part of the sidewalk and seeing as it is winter and we just had a 10 days of rain last week, the gate was opened and the sprinkler put out there to try and impede the pro-lifers.
did HE do it with limp wrists and a plaintiff pleading castratti voice?
Then did Jesus hand them a tiny, dainty necklace (necklaces were called millstones back then, I think) and tell them it was better for them to go swimming while wearing it?
Guy’s a crappy security guard. If he worked for my company he’d be fired for his actions and possibly arrested, from what I can tell from the video. You can’t pepper spray people for being loud and obnoxious on a public sidewalk.
Maria says: January 23, 2013 at 10:23 pm
Reality,….. what are you trying to convey here with your ridiculous scenario?
Kenthebirther is waving his hand frantically and saying, “I know, I know. Please call on me. I know the answer to your question.”
Real-stupid-ity is trying to convey real-stupid-ity [and doing a spot on bang up job cause she/he/it is just gifted that way.]
Remarkable! None of you seem capable of dealing with a simple hypothetical.
My question is not about the rights or wrongs of abortion or religion. You are against abortion, I am against religion, we know that.
I simply asked how I would fare, what the likely risks would be, if I exhibited similar behavior outside a church that anti-choicers exhibit outside health clinics. Both are legal and legitimate entities providing legal and legitimate services.
And if ken’s, 2hearts4LIFE’s and Maria’s responses are indicative of the inability to comprehend the simplicity of the question and causes them to go off on irrelevant tangents then that says something.
Scott, if you don’t attribute guilt or innocence to animals, on what basis do you attribute it to developing fetuses?
Nothing offensive Carla. Maybe a placard saying ‘god isn’t real’ and I might yell out stuff like “stop wasting your lives” or “you can be good without god”.
Coffee and donuts? Aren’t you supposed to be praying, singing and listening to the preacher? I doubt I’d go inside, not my cup of tea.
“I simply asked how I would fare, what the likely risks would be, if I exhibited similar behavior outside a church that anti-choicers exhibit outside health clinics.”
I suppose it would depend on the church. My parent’s “church” would probably give you quite a rough time. The Methodist church in my neighborhood would probably try to preach to you, doubt that they would do anything violent. You can’t really pigeonhole people, every different group would react differently.
I agree Jack. Some would be peaceful, some would ignore me, others would shout abuse, some would inflict violence, and in certain places I’d probably need a bullet proof vest.
My point is, I really do think that overall I’d be at greater risk than anti-choicers outside clinics are.
Nice to know someone can grasp a basic hypothetical question and deal with it :-)
Praxedes! I know this is far down on the thread from your earlier comment, but do tell, did YOU listen to the Doctor Demento radio show? I sure did and your song lyrics brought back fond memories. I think you got all the words right! Two other diddies that would have me laughing were Fish Heads (fish heads roly poly fish heads, eat them up, yum!) and Dead Puppies (aren’t much fun, don’t come when you call, don’t play or run). LOL!! I used to listen to it on my little transistor radio, right next to my ear. Back in my day, we didn’t have the i tunes.. we had to listen to transistors, uphill, in the snow!
Reality: “Both are legal and legitimate entities providing legal and legitimate services.”
Wrong. Abortion is the taking of the life of an innocent human being which is definitely still illegal in this country.
Reality: “Scott, if you don’t attribute guilt or innocence to animals, on what basis do you attribute it to developing fetuses?”
It’s not wrong for a lion to kill and eat a gazelle. It’s not wrong for a fish to eat another fish. And it’s not wrong for a human being to kill an animal as long as the human isn’t endangering other humans, or torturing the animal before he kills it, or killing someone’s property, i.e., a pet.
The fact is, at conception of a human being, 23 + 23 human chromosomes combine to create the DNA of a unique human being who has never existed before and will never exist again. At that very moment, sex, height, eye and hair color, skin tone, fingerprints, facial features, and some mannerisms are established. In other words, at the very moment you were conceived, Reality, you were you. There’s never been a single moment from the time you were conceived that you weren’t you. And because a developing human being cannot commit a capital crime in his mother’s womb, he or she is innocent and does not deserve to be intentionally killed.
The same thing goes for a human being outside the womb. If they have not committed a capital crime, they don’t deserve to be intentionally killed, either. There is absolutely no difference between a human being in the womb and a human being outside the womb as far as the personhood of those human beings is concerned. We are all human beings in differing stages of development. We never stop developing from the moment we are conceived until the day we die.
And you should be pondering the day you will die, Reality. After we die, we will all experience the true Reality which is Jesus Christ who is God. Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Reality, do so before the day you die, because afterward it will be too late for you, and God wishes that none should perish, including you. And I don’t wish for you to perish, either. After all, it’s for eternity.
Hey Scott? You know what doesn’t really help the pro-life movement? Saying really weird things, like pretending abortion isn’t illegal.
I can’t tell if you’re being serious or sarcastic, JackBorsch. If you’re being serious, didn’t you mean to say, “…pretending abortion isn’t legal.”?
Either way, maybe you would agree to make your best argument that abortion is legal, if you believe it to be legal in this country. My contention is it’s illegal.
Yes, I meant “pretending abortion isn’t legal”. The worst thing about the missing edit function is that people can see how horribly I type.
Abortion is legal in this country. That’s… the entire reason there is a pro-life movement. I have no idea how to argue a fact that’s evident.
Where are you living then Scott? The fact remains that a business which provides abortion is a legal and legitimate entity and it is legal and legitimate for people to procure one. You saying otherwise doesn’t alter that fact.
You didn’t answer my question – if you don’t attribute guilt or innocence to animals, on what basis do you attribute it to developing fetuses?
Your little biology lesson also applies to animals.
Try this – “And because an animal cannot commit a capital crime, he or she is innocent and does not deserve to be intentionally killed.”
“And you should be pondering the day you will die, Reality.” – I think we all do to one extent or other, we are cogent beings, well, most of us.
“After we die, we will all experience the true Reality which is Jesus Christ who is God.” – no we won’t.
“Every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.” – no they won’t.
“Reality, do so before the day you die,” – no.
“because afterward it will be too late for you,” – no it won’t.
“and God wishes that none should perish, including you.” – there is no god.
“And I don’t wish for you to perish, either. After all, it’s for eternity.” – we all perish, and it is for eternity. We die, we rot, we return to the physical universe. There is no pain, fear or suffering after death. We no longer exist except in peoples fading mempries, until they too die.
If abortion isn’t legal Scott, why aren’t you spending your days calling the police and testifying in court? You know who they are, you know where they are, you know what they are doing and there are plenty of people who have used their services. It can’t be difficult.
did YOU listen to the Doctor Demento radio show?
I didn’t. The parents were always listening to their old-Country radio and 8-tracks in our home and we kids let them believe that they ruled the roost. However, my older brother had some cool friends who had all these cool songs on cassette tapes! Those were the days. Even if we had to walk up both ways in blizzards. (:
So, “Reality”, you believe that an act of killing human individuals, not in self-defense nor punishment, is not murder, merely because the state has said it isn’t, so long as the killed individual is not yet born? Brilliant. You know, other states have said it isn’t murder, so long as the act is carried out by a samurai, or so long as the killed party is Jewish, or a slave. You’re in marvelous company there, sporto.
And where’s your evidence that they were blocking clinic access?
No Ksitigarbha, I believe it isn’t murder even in places where abortion isn’t legal. I wouldn’t break the law of course but numerous people would.
“so long as the killed party is Jewish, or a slave.” – those are people, not developing fetuses in a woman’s body.
The video shows it, as do many other similar instances.
Was murdering in Jews in Germany legal? If so, why were judges who handed down the death sentences found guilty at Nuremberg? Was killing Jews suddenly illegal in Germany after the war? No, of course not. Killing Jews in Germany was always illegal.
Same in America with abortion. The legislative and executive branches of our government never passed a law that said abortion was legal in this country. A majority of people in black robes gave their permission and the gutless politicians in the executive branch didn’t challenge it. That’s the only reason people get away with murdering preborn babies in America.
If you believe that killing the preborn is murder, and you know that murder is illegal in America, then it would follow that killing the preborn is illegal in America. And after it’s illegal, there’s nothing to stop those who participated in it to be tried and convicted for crimes against humanity just like the judges at Nuremberg were.
Godwin’s Law.
Not going to answer the question then?
or “you can be good without god”.
If you’re trying to sell that, you’re a really, REALLY poor example.
Reality: “If abortion isn’t legal Scott, why aren’t you spending your days calling the police and testifying in court? You know who they are, you know where they are, you know what they are doing and there are plenty of people who have used their services. It can’t be difficult.”
I have told the police in person numerous times and they did nothing about it. That doesn’t mean it’s illegal. It’s murder and murder is illegal in America.
those are people, not developing fetuses in a woman’s body.
human fetuses ARE people. “Person” means “human being”. “Human being” means “member of the species homo sapiens sapiens”. Fetuses are people. Location is irrelevant, for a few reasons.
“If you’re trying to sell that, you’re a really, REALLY poor example.” – I love you too :-)
“I have told the police in person numerous times….” – ah, I see.
“It’s murder and murder is illegal in America.” – yeah, the prisons are overflowing.
Still can’t answer the question?
Reality, I answered the question with my murdering Jews in Germany post. Maybe you missed it.
You didn’t answer my question – if you don’t attribute guilt or innocence to animals, on what basis do you attribute it to developing fetuses?
“Was murdering in Jews in Germany legal? If so, why were judges who handed down the death sentences found guilty at Nuremberg? Was killing Jews suddenly illegal in Germany after the war? No, of course not. Killing Jews in Germany was always illegal.”
It was legal according to Nazi law. The Nuremberg trials were actually the first of their kind, before them there was no international process for trying government officials for atrocities committed against their own citizens. Some of the Nazis actions against citizens of other nations were illegal according to the Hague Conventions, but not what they did to German Jews. So, they kinda made it retroactively illegal, I guess. It’s beside the point, anyway. Fact is, abortion is legal according to US law, and international laws don’t recognize fetuses as people either so murdering a fetus isn’t considered a crime against humanity either. It’s legal. The point of the pro-life movement, along with reducing the desire of women to have abortions, is to change this legal status.
I love when people criticize pro-lifers at the clinic by telling them that they’re doing it all wrong, but themselves don’t go. I guarantee you that if those same people actually met Jesus on the street they would tell him that He was doing it all wrong, sort of just like the Pharisees and Sadducees did. Would Jesus be disrespectful by telling people that they had to hate their families?
JackBorsch: “Fact is, abortion is legal according to US law…”
Name the law, Jack.
Scott, I’m really not sure what you’re trying to accomplish by saying abortion is illegal. The simple fact of that matter is that it is legal. Every pro-lifer I’ve ever talked to (until now) admits as such. That’s what we’re trying to change.
Let me clear something else up: The technical definition of murder is “unlawful killing,” so technically speaking, abortion is neither murder, nor unlawful. Technically speaking, the Jews were not murdered in the nazi camps either.
It seems like you put a lot of stock in legality as if it’s the end all, be all definition of what’s right, and that simply isn’t the case. It was once legal to own people as property in the U.S. It was once illegal for women to vote. Laws change all the time and vary from state to state, nation to nation. They are not a very reliable measure of whether something is just or not.
Personally, I much prefer to argue whether abortion is right; whether it is just. And the simple answer that any person in tune with facts and *ahem* reality will give you is that it is not.
Reality: “You didn’t answer my question – if you don’t attribute guilt or innocence to animals, on what basis do you attribute it to developing fetuses?”
I did answer that question. It’s not wrong for an animal to kill another animal, but it is wrong for a human being to kill another innocent human being. Fetuses are innocent human beings. From the moment of conception, their 46 chromosomes are human. Their DNA is human. Before they are born, they are as much a human being as a horse is a horse before it’s born. so, fetuses are obviously, biologically human beings, and they are obviously innocent, and no innocent human being deserves to be killed intentionally.
Andrew, please name the law that makes abortion legal in America.
“I love when people criticize pro-lifers at the clinic by telling them that they’re doing it all wrong, but themselves don’t go. I guarantee you that if those same people actually met Jesus on the street they would tell him that He was doing it all wrong, sort of just like the Pharisees and Sadducees did. Would Jesus be disrespectful by telling people that they had to hate their families?”
Some pro-lifers who do go to clinics also disagree with certain tactics used by others who also clinic protest. Some pro-lifers disagree with clinic protests in general. They’re all valid opinions and people might learn something by talking it out. And did you just compare yourself to Jesus? Lol.
As an aside, is that really in the Bible, that Jesus says to hate your family?
“If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.” – Luke 14:26.
“Name the law, Jack.”
Well, Roe v Wade and Doe v Bolton overturned existing laws banning abortion. Btw, abortion was never considered murder in this country, it was tried differently with different penalities even when it was illegal. And depending on your state, some states have laws that have even less restrictions on abortion than federal law permits. My state does.
““If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.” – Luke 14:26.”
Oh, well I hate my parents and most of my siblings, a lot, but I will never hate my kids. No wonder I was such a terrible Christian.
So you’re not going to name the law that makes abortion legal in America Jack or Andrew?
You’re doing a nice little number in side-stepping Scott.
You still haven’t explained how, if you don’t attribute guilt or innocence to animals, on what basis do you attribute it to developing fetuses?
“Oh, well I hate my parents and most of my siblings, a lot, but I will never hate my kids. No wonder I was such a terrible Christian.”
That’s only because you don’t understand the context of the verse, Jack.
I explained it, Reality, you just don’t accept my explanation. But I’ll try one more time and that’s it so as not to cast my pearls before swine. Human beings are made in God’s image and likeness and animals are not. And fetuses are human beings which I’ve already established biologically.
OK, well here goes. The law that makes abortion legal in America doesn’t exist. Roe v. Wade and Doe v Bolton are not laws. They did not go through the legislative process and they were not signed by the president. They are supreme court decision by the judicial branch of government and the other two branches have every right constitutionally to strike down those decisions. They simply chose not to. So abortion is murder and murder is illegal in America, therefore, abortion is illegal in America.
“OK, well here goes. The law that makes abortion legal in America doesn’t exist. Roe v. Wade and Doe v Bolton are not laws. They did not go through the legislative process and they were not signed by the president. They are supreme court decision by the judicial branch of government and the other two branches have every right constitutionally to strike down those decisions. They simply chose not to. So abortion is murder and murder is illegal in America, therefore, abortion is illegal in America.”
Roe and Doe are based on the interpretation of the Constitution. They are legally binding like any other Supreme Court decision. The only legitimate way to overturn these decisions are if the Court reverses it, or if the states and Congress ammend the actual Constitution. The other two branches cannot strike down Supreme Court decisions. You aren’t making sense.
“The other two branches cannot strike down Supreme Court decisions. You aren’t making sense.”
Congress can also pass legislation that acts to overturn specific Supreme Court decisions. For example, in 1986, the Supreme Court ruled in the case of Department of Transportation v. Paralyzed Veterans of America that a federal civil rights law protecting the rights of people with disabilities did not apply to the airline industry. In response to this decision, Congress passed a new law, the Air Carrier Access Act. The new law was designed to prohibit discrimination against people with disabilities in air travel, thereby overturning the Court’s decision.
http://www.catea.gatech.edu/grade/legal/intro.html
“so as not to cast my pearls before swine.” – what makes you think you’re dishing up pearls?
“Human beings are made in God’s image and likeness and animals are not” – that is not an answer. How can a fetus possess innocence or guilt and not an animal?
It is not often a requirement that there be a law to declare something ‘legal’. There just has to be an absence of any law making it ‘illegal’. Pretty much everything has taken place over time until laws were created to make some things illegal.
I suppose one more pearl won’t hurt. But with this blind crowd, it probably won’t help, either.
Human beings possess the knowledge of good and evil. In order to be guilty, a human being must commit a capital crime. Fetus’ are incapable of committing capital crimes. Animals do not possess the knowledge of good and evil so they cannot be either guilty or innocent. That’s why animals are correctly referred to as “it.” They just exist then go away when they die. Human beings’ spirits live on after death. Human beings consist of body, soul, and spirit. Animals only exist of body and soul.
“Human beings possess the knowledge of good and evil. In order to be guilty, a human being must commit a capital crime. Fetus’ are incapable of committing capital crimes. Animals do not possess the knowledge of good and evil so they cannot be either guilty or innocent. That’s why animals are correctly referred to as “it.” They just exist then go away when they die. Human beings’ spirits live on after death. Human beings consist of body, soul, and spirit. Animals only exist of body and soul.:
This is all complete conjecture and opinion. If you are arguing with an atheist you aren’t going to make any headway. This is why I think religious arguments against abortion only have any sway with people are already religious.
“This is all complete conjecture and opinion.” Only if you live life on the shifting sand of your own conjecture and opinion instead of the solid Rock of Jesus Christ and His word which is the truth. If you don’t base your life on Him, then you simply make up your own mind on what’s right and what’s wrong. It’s only your opinion vs. someone else’s opinion. In other words, it’s meaningless because your opinions are meaningless if they’re not based on something tangible. So your life is like a rudderless ship being tossed about on a stormy sea with no direction and no destination except eventual destruction.
So, you say that animals don’t possess knowledge of good and evil so they can’t be guilty or innocent.
Therefore, unless you can demonstrate that a fetus does possess knowledge of good and evil then it cannot be guilty or innocent either. Please attempt to do so.
“That’s why animals are correctly referred to as “it.” – not evreyone refers to anmals as ‘it’!
“They just exist then go away when they die.” – so do we.
“Human beings’ spirits live on after death.” – no they don’t.
“Human beings consist of body, soul, and spirit.” – no we don’t.
“Animals only exist of body and soul.” – really? Animals have a soul? And with what does this endow them? An understanding of good and evil perhaps?
“murder is illegal”
Scott, the very fact that you say this proves you still don’t understand. Technically speaking, murder isn’t illegal. Unlawful killing is murder. Murder defines itself as unlawful. It’s not something that could be made legal because then it would be an oxymoron: “legal murder.” It’s like saying “liquid water is a liquid” as if someone would argue that liquid water was a solid.
It’s precisely because the Supreme Court decisions haven’t been challenged that abortion remains legal. The Supreme Court is THE authority in this country as to what is legal or not. Since the 1973 decision, there have been scores of laws added to the books that relate directly to abortion (Obamacare anyone?).
Please stop with this pointless argument that accomplishes precisely nothing for the pro-life movement. We need to change the law so that it protects all life because that’s what’s right and just.
“Only if you live life on the shifting sand of your own conjecture and opinion instead of the solid Rock of Jesus Christ and His word which is the truth. If you don’t base your life on Him, then you simply make up your own mind on what’s right and what’s wrong. It’s only your opinion vs. someone else’s opinion. In other words, it’s meaningless because your opinions are meaningless if they’re not based on something tangible. So your life is like a rudderless ship being tossed about on a stormy sea with no direction and no destination except eventual destruction.”
Yes, it’s my opinion versus someone else’s opinion, such is life. There’s really nothing to talk about here.
Reality, I think you may be hopeless. A guilty person is one who commits a capital crime. A fetus is incapable of committing a capital crime. Therefore, a fetus is innocent.
Andrew, unlawful killing is murder, and the killing of preborn babies is unlawful murder. The law is simply not enforced for a certain group of human beings, i.e., preborn babies. And some have argued that babies up to a month old should also be subject to being murdered if the mother so chooses. You have heard of that development, correct?
No, the Supreme Court is not THE authority in this country as to what is legal or not. I have shown that they can be overturned by the legislative and executive branches. It’s just that they either don’t know right from wrong or they’re cowards or they’re just collecting a paycheck and don’t want to work that hard to go after Supreme Court decisions.
I’m not the one who said abortion is legal in this country. I’m just the one who pointed out that it definitely is not. The law (5th and 14th amendments to the constitution) is already supposed to protect all innocent human life. ”No state shall deprive any person of life without the due process of law.”
What would end abortion in America is for pro-life Christians to hit the streets and go to the abortion mills and preach the true Gospel of Jesus Christ and plead for babies’ lives, and to “out” the abortionists, abortion industry employees, and volunteers and go to their neighborhoods and inform all their neighbors that they have murders and accessories to murder right next door or just down the block. If those things were done daily, abortion would for all intense and purposes, end in America. We can’t count on politicians to do it. Christians have to do it.
But, alas, “Then He said to His disciples, “The harvest truly is plentiful, but the laborers are few.” – Matthew 9:37.
THAT is the real problem.
” I have shown that they can be overturned by the legislative and executive branches. It’s just that they either don’t know right from wrong or they’re cowards or they’re just collecting a paycheck and don’t want to work that hard to go after Supreme Court decisions.”
Stop making stuff up. The Executive branch can’t overturn Supreme Court decisions. The only way that the Legislative branch can is if they amend the part of the Constitution that the decision is based on, to specifically make that decision unconstitutional. A lot goes into amending the Constitution, it’s not a simple process that you are trying to make it out to be.
“A guilty person is one who commits a capital crime. A fetus is incapable of committing a capital crime. Therefore, a fetus is innocent.”
That’s fine Scott.
“A guilty animal is one who commits a capital crime. An animal is incapable of committing a capital crime. Therefore, an animal is innocent.
Now what?
“the killing of preborn babies is unlawful murder.” – evidently not in most cases.
“And some have argued that babies up to a month old should also be subject to being murdered if the mother so chooses.” – some say 18 months, some even three years.
”No state shall deprive any person of life without the due process of law.” – how did those ‘personhood amendments go?
The US is not a theocracy. The laws encompass all citizens, not just christians.
So I’ll leave y’all with this: There WILL come a day when we all will know the same Truth.
So, you’ve left us’ll with some well chewed gum.
So much for the pearls you kept promising.
The action of the guard is somewhat analogous to the actions of many in the prochoice ranks and in the main stream media and our trolls. They act to squash, to lash out against, to shut out, to obfuscate, to ignore, to trample upon, and to misrepresent the prolife message in any of a thousand ways. When we see the poor coverage of tomorrow’s March for Life what the media is doing is exactly what the guard did in his own creepy and ignorant way…but instead of spraying a quarter of a million plus demonstrators with pepper spray they do the equivalent by running from reality with their eyes closed and hands over their ears so they cannot hear. They shut us out by journalistic malfeasance. The truth hurts.
Scott:
We’ve gone around with reality before and it is always the same. Reality is a troll and will not admit to error or even the possibility of error. You could write volumes and it would not matter.
Again with the “unlawful murder,” eh, Scott? Oy.
What, so you agree with Scott that abortion is actually illegal but none of the authorities will do nothing about it?
And that fetuses are innocent but animals aren’t?
“You could write volumes and it would not matter.” – once it became accurate, it would.
““If you’re trying to sell that, you’re a really, REALLY poor example.” – I love you too ”
Darnit, Reality! I promised myself I’d never laugh at your shenanigans. I lost. :(
So, Reality, tell me. What is your definition of personhood? What makes you think killing human individuals who don’t happen to be born is somehow different from killing human individuals who don’t happen to be white? Why is being born your determinant of personhood?
Do you believe that birth, though changing none of the essential traits of the individual in question, causes that individual to change from a non-personal substance to a personal one? Because there is a word for change from one substance to another without change in traits, it’s called “Transsubstantiation”. It is a mystical dogma, regarded as a miraculous process. Do you believe that the state should be legislating based on mystical beliefs in miracles?
never forget that the reason that “Reality” comes here is because she really is seeking the truth and has doubts about her position. So I for one, welcome her questions. There is hope for you Reality. Been praying for you and all like you who haven’t come to know that truth yet.
I have been outside termination clinics, over the last 20 years. I have seen physical assaults by the supporters of infanticide many times. Never have I seen Prolife activists do so.
Outside Tillers late term termination clinic, I had a Pro murder activist, try to grab my camera as I was filming one of his buddies being arrested by Wichita P.D. . One of my Christian brothers, called out to the police to let them know I was being assaulted, no policeman saw or did anything in that case. They were within 20 feet of us at the time!
I know that our Father in heaven knows what we do for the least in our community! He will repay accordingly to our actions too!
Please don’t fell you’ve let yourself down xalisaae ;-)
It would appear that I didn’t win those tickets so I’m afraid I’ve let you down :-(
“Why is being born your determinant of personhood?” – that would be science.
“though changing none of the essential traits of the individual in question” – well that’s wrong.
Substance?
“Reality” comes here is because she (he actually) really is seeking the truth” – I already know the truth.
“and has doubts about her position.” – er, no.
“So I for one, welcome her questions.” – well that’s good.
“There is hope for you Reality.” – yes, I know.
“Been praying for you and all like you who haven’t come to know that truth yet.” – how much of your time you choose to waste is up to you. :-)