Here were my top five six favorite cartoons this week. And why not begin the year with liberally spun support of Planned Parenthood?
by Nick Anderson at GoComics.com, as if…
by Steve Breen at Townhall.com…
by Gary Varvel at Townhall.com…
by Bob Gorrell at Townhall.com…
and closing with a twofer by Walt Handelsman at GoComics.com…
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http://politicalhumor.about.com/od/politicalcartoons/ig/Political-Cartoons/
Thanks, Ex, some of those are pretty witty.
mp’s comment on the other thread was pretty irrelevant. mp, observe how Ex is responding to the subject at hand with a like item or comment. That’s how it’s done. ;>)
Happy New Year all my pro-choice friends; I hold out great hope that you will be on our side this time next year!
Al Gore…..sigh! Obama’s anti-religious mandate….sigh. Fiscal cliff massive increase in spending…sigh. Planned Parenthood’s taxpayer funding of abortion…sigh.
Women did not have access to health care pre-PP?? Its a lie…sigh.
All of the above…liberals think things are great. Sigh.
Russia’s not letting their orphans out of the country because they don’t like America.
Russia’s holing onto what they have left of their population and the pro-abortion, Obamanation oriented new media won’t report the real fact: That repetative diviision has obliterated Russia’s population. Women were objectified for so long in Russia and Religion was suppressed for so long that the lack of faith resulted in a complete lack of faith in miracles, ie” babies were not miracles anymore-they were soley burdens. If you look up Russia, population decline crisis, you will get the real scoop on this Agenda21 ‘spin.’
Women’s health care! Ha! Women’s health care was never a major concern-and liberals actually believe the garbage-that a sharia apologist like Obama CARES ABOUT WOMENS HEALTH CARE!! LOL, what a joker that Obama is!! Crazy guy-yeah-he cares about American women. CAn you imagine him talking about women’s help centers the way he ‘sweet nothings’ planned parenthood to U.S. women?
Didn’t think so.
Hi City of Angels,
Let’s not forget gun control as well which enabled Soviet tyrants like Stalin to decimate Soviet citizens by the millions, and that was before WW2 when Hitler decimated 20 million more.
http://www.thegunzone.com/rkba/rkba-12.html
Its easy to see why the Russians have some population concerns.
Hi Jerry,
I see that 50% of Catholics voted for Obama this time around. While I vehemently oppose the HHS mandate, I’m afraid I am less than sympathetic to Catholics.
Not looking to tick you off, I like you very much, just have to be honest.
The first cartoon will cause deja vu on Tuesday. ;)
Al Gore. John Kerry. Barack Obama. Who knew it was only going to be downhill from Clinton?
Hi Mary,
I see that 55% of women voted for Obama this time around. While I vehemently oppose Obama’s anti-woman agenda, I’m afraid I am less than sympathetic to women.
Well, hopefully Texas can build up their network of clinics for women so that women in Texas can get the preventative care they need. I’m not holding out much hope – Texas is an embarrassment in this country in regards to health care. The agency for HC research and quality puts their overall care at weak, their preventative measures as weak, their acute care and chronic care measures as weak. In almost every measure, they are are towards the bottom in regards to state by state rankings.
I kind of hope Texas goes on their own, without federal funds, for more and more care – they are dragging the rest of the country down.
Hi lrng,
I hear you. I understand that 69% of the Jewish vote went for Obama as well. I better not hear any complaints about Obama’s treatment of Israel.
BTW, sounds like we have some disillusioned Obama supporters already so we can at least enjoy a good laugh. Some still blame Bush of course, but sooner or later they will have to put big boy pants on their man-child leader and actually hold him accountable like real leaders are.
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jan/6/obama-supporters-shocked-angry-new-tax-increases/
The gods do indeed punish (wo)man by answering their prayers!
Mary – maybe those people won’t vote for Obama next time around…oh wait.
If it had been up to the GOP, the payroll tax would have been eliminated a while ago.
EGV,
Like most Obama supporters, its time for you to put big boy pants on your manchild president and start holding him accountable for his actions. That’s what real leaders do, they take responsiblity.
Ex-GOP,
We’ll just see who’s dragging who down. Texas or New York and California? Nothing tentative about Texas. Although I wish you were tentative about writing “preventive”.
Or has the language already evolved past me?
Okay Mary – I will. And will you hold the house GOP responsible for theirs?
EGV,
I don’t recall blaming previous congresspeople for the actions of this congress.
Ah, okay. I wasn’t sure what you meant, because nowhere in this thread did I blame the previous administration for any failures – so for you to say that would seem wildly out of left field.
EGV,
You made the comment, “if it had been up to the GOP….” I interpreted that, possibly incorrectly, as excusing Obama. He is the president and the buck stops with him, even if it has taken him, as well as many of his supporters, a while to figure that out.
Mary -
Let’s just check then if you are consistent. Agree or disagree with the two below statements:
– Reagan’s massive expansion of the federal payroll, debt, and federal spending in general was his fault, not the fault of the Democrats in the house and senate.
– Clinton gets full credit for the balanced budget, not Newt and the Republicans in congress.
“He is the president and the buck stops with him” – that would be all very well if it wasn’t for the lunatic fringe of the GOP in the House keeping their mits grasping that buck.
EGV,
Well, I will say this for both presidents, they at least took responsibility as leaders and did not incessently whine how previous presidents were to blame.
Reagan-The buck stopped with him
Clinton- The buck stopped with him
http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/no-bill-clinton-didnt-balance-budget
Reality 8:17PM
I see it is again time to heed Big Joe’s words of wisdom.
Mary – So just want to confirm – you don’t believe Reagan blamed the Democrats and Carter for the economy he inherited?
I’m thinking you are going to want to check some facts before you post things…
EGV,
I said they didn’t incessently whine.
Can you give a handful of times lately when Obama has “whined” about Bush?
EGV
http://patriotstatesman.com/2012/07/barack-hussein-obama-%E2%80%93-u-s-whiner-in-chief/
“Big Joe’s words of wisdom.” – thats odd, I thought you didn’t get concepts.
Cute articles Mary – but I don’t see quotes at all. I would think there would be a lot from this year if he constantly whines – please post some.
Thanks,
EGV,
You’re welcome
http://www.whitehousedossier.com/2012/03/23/president-obamas-hall-blame/
Can I whine about Bush?
Also can someone explain the second comic to me?
Hi Jack,
Well honestly I wasn’t terribly fond of him either but I think one whiner is enough.
The second cartoon refers to Putin’s stopping the adoption of Russian children by American couples. You’ll have to google for more info as I haven’t really followed the story.
Mary –
I thought so. To prove that Obama constantly whines about Bush, you posted a bunch of old quotes, with very few even related to Bush.
Lovely.
Jack – the US passed an act to crack down on Russian human rights violators. Russia has gotten mad about this, so they’ve banned adoptions to the US.
“The second cartoon refers to Putin’s stopping the adoption of Russian children by American couples. You’ll have to google for more info as I haven’t really followed the story. ”
“Jack – the US passed an act to crack down on Russian human rights violators. Russia has gotten mad about this, so they’ve banned adoptions to the US. ”
Okay thank you, I hadn’t heard about. Kinda screwed up. International adoption can be iffy for other reasons, but bringing kids into politics like that is not cool.
EGV,
The quotes, if you check the date, are as recent as March 2012. They are during the 4 year course of his administration which isn’t exactly ancient history. Also if you read the article the author mentions these are only one or two quotes per subject where he tries to project blame, either on Bush or on other factors, though in fact there were more.
Also, out of the 15 quotes, he talks of what he inherited or made references to it 12 times.
I agree, lovely.
Hi Jack,
Especially when you consider those hellhole orphanages. Heartbreaking.
Mary –
Are any of those references factually incorrect anyways? The ones even mentioned that did talk about previous years – they don’t seem to be in a blaming fashion – it is very matter of fact. And the facts support it.
Again though, I find it very hard to call that “constant whining”.
EGV,
You draw your conclusions and I will draw mine.
Mary,
You can feel sorry for Catholics. I am sorry to say that over 50% of those baptised Catholic do not practice their faith so they are pretty much Catholic by baptism only and they still identify themselves as Catholics. Reall Catholics deserve your sympathy.
Truthseeker said, “Real Catholics deserve your sympathy.”
I say that real Americans don’t vote for free bread. An American man is not a real man unless he works.
Also, real Americans don’t “invest in the future”; real Americans save up for their children. In that way, China is more American than America
G.K. Chesterton, a real Catholic I’m sure Truthseeker would agree, wrote this in his Father Brown story of “The Curse of the Golden Cross”: ”Americans really respect work, rather as Europeans respect war. There is a halo of heroism about it; and he who shrinks from it is less than a man.” How times have changed!
Mary -
Amen, if there’s one thing I’ve learned about you is that, regardless of facts, you’ll draw your own conclusions.
Your view of the 93,000 job cuts will forever baffle me!
EGV,
LOL. Give it up already, will you?
Hi ts,
I am sorry for those Catholics, many of whom I know, that voted against Obama. I still remember Dolan yukking it up with Obama. I remember how Obama treated the PM of Israel, yet Jews still supported him. I guess I just don’t understand people working against their own interests.
Now people are whining about their taxes, even though Obama said he’d raise them. Problem for him is since its his second term, he had to start taking responsiblity for his actions.
Yep. Obama really inherited a mess from Obama with that ObamaCare thing, so he had to raise taxes. Poor guy.
Wikipedia’s entry for “Abortion in Russia” says, “In 2001, 1.31 million children were born in Russia, while 2.11 million abortions were performed.
Hi EGV, when Mary says “You draw your conclusions and I will draw mine” I read ‘well I can’t come up with any real evidence to support my claim so I’ll just sorta say its out there and that we can agree to disagree’, and then she says things like “LOL. Give it up already, will you?” in the hope that you will just forgetaboutit.
At least Kim Kardashian is keeping her baby. ;)
Reality,
Again, I will invoke Big Joe’s great words of wisdom.
“Mary, you don’t argue with an idiot. You laugh at idiots, you make fun of idiots, you let them make fools of themselves, BUT YOU NEVER ARGUE WITH ONE!”
Apparently EGV and I haven’t been listening to ‘Big Joe’.
Your ‘Big Joe’ invocations are wearing a bit thin as your defense against being unable to defend your claims :-)
Back up please. Who exactly is this Big Joe guy?
Hi Navi,
He’s a former street character, cop, and intensely loyal and protective friend who has long since passed away. Taught me a lot, mainly how to protect myself from predators and how predators operate. Not long ago I was in the habit of opening my garage door for the light then getting into my car to leave for work. Suddenly, and I am convinced Big Joe was whispering in my ear, it occured to me I was setting myself up to be a target for a predator who could be watching my morning routine. Big Joe had certainly taught me better!
Now I get in my vehicle, lock it start it, then open the garage door. Wherver Big Joe dwells in eternity, he watches over me and my family.
So when I catch myself arguing people who aren’t saying anything intelligent, then I remember Big Joe and his words of wisdom, which I have repeated in the previous post. They have done much to spare me a lot of aggravation.
“I am convinced Big Joe was whispering in my ear” – one of many? Or is there a mirror involved in much of this?
Reality,
Again I will invoke Big Joe’s great words of wisdom.
Uhu, is that at 33 and a 3rd, 45 or 78?
She remembers truisms at any speed.
Reality – are you confused about Big Joe? I am.
He protects people in their garages, but he also helps with internet conflict wisdom?
I wonder if Big Joe would help Mary find the answer to the 93,000 job cuts?
and comes out with the same line whenever she can’t come up with a real response.
Yes, I did wonder about that EGV, but I didn’t want to ponder the rationale publicly.
Mary doesn’t do concepts though, that has to be kept in mind.
Reality – do you remember how folks on this board were freaking out when Obama was heading to Hawaii for vacation?
Have you seen anybody give him props for coming back, earlier than the Senate and House, and leading them on the job they should have been doing for months?
Of course they haven’t EGV, obama is the devil incarnate who cannot be credited for so much as tying his shoelaces because he refuses to end all taxation, close down anything but full fee for service hospitals, declare welfare illegal and give every citizen a free six piece armory of their choice.
oh, and the uppity little non-natural really ought to remember that the fringe element of the GOP should get everything their way, no matter what the election outcome.
Non-republicans voted?!?!?
do you remember how folks on this board were freaking out when Obama was heading to Hawaii for vacation?
Have you seen anybody give him props for coming back, earlier than the Senate and House, and leading them on the job they should have been doing for months?
I guess I missed the freak out. Interesting that you think he deserves “props” for coming back to do his job, only to leave again and cost the taxpayers additional $$$ for the extra trip. Most of the working business leaders I know have to postpone their vacations when a crisis is heating up at work. *shrug*
EGV and Realty,
Its time to get out of the sandbox children.
EGV and Reality, 11:41PM
Hopefully you both have climbed out of your sandbox and I will try to talk to you like you’re actually adults.
As for your “confusion” about Big Joe, which I admit doesn’t surprise me, I am speaking with fondness and lighthearted humor about a devoted, loyal and fiercely protective friend who is now deceased, not anything that is to be taken literally. Apparently others on this blog have no trouble figuring this out, but I’m honestly not surprised the two of you have a problem telling the literal from the metaphorical.
A friend who’s advise I have used to help a poster to this blog who was fearful of a stalker, while also telling her how I wished I could have Big Joe’s advise directly from him. A friend who has taught me much about protecting the ones I love and myself.
Also, in bringing up the garage incident, I am pointing out how easy it is to become careless and expose oneself to danger, and hopefully preventing others from making the same mistake. Much like not carefully watching where you’re driving and ending up in a very dangerous neighborhood and thanking your “lucky stars” you didn’t get a flat tire. Its highly unlikely one believes there are such things as “lucky stars”.
So hopefully I have made that simple enough for you both and by all means, don’t let me keep you from the sandbox.
Hi Lrning,
If what passes for real leadership in the minds of some people wasn’t so frightening it would be laughable.
Hm, referencing a ‘friend from on high’ when lacking knowledge, facts and understanding, now what does that remind me of? Mary?
“a problem telling the literal from the metaphorical” – yet you don’t do ‘concepts’!
Reality,
LOL. I’m sure EGV is awaiting your return to the sandbox.
With all due respect Mary, I think it would just be a little less weird if you gave the pep talk to yourself in your HEAD. When you post words of wisdom to yourself on a message board…well, it is a little, odd.
Sticking to your usual standard of intellectual rigour then I see :-)
Lrning –
I just find it, well, predictable that we had people freaking out that Obama goes on vacations (like any other President in history) and that he might not be there for talks – and freaking out about gas prices – and freaking out about other random things…
…and then when the deal came together under the leadership of the executive branch, and gas prices lower, and other economic signs keep getting better, there’s no mention of the past freak outs.
EGV,
LOL. This from someone who thinks Obama is some brilliant leader because he returns from a vacation he shouldn’t have taken to do a job he should have done to begin with. All at the expense of the taxpayer.
Go rejoin Reality in the sandbox EGV. Next time I won’t assume you know what is literal and what is metaphorical, like most intelligent people do.
Mary –
I’m surprised you don’t complain that Obama goes to the bathroom on taxpayer time.
Come on – what President in history hasn’t gone on vacations? And are you saying they shouldn’t? Come on. Get real.
There’s having a good logical problem with something, and there’s just being petty. You are being petty.
EGV 6:31PM
Like I said Lrning, if what passes for real leadership in the minds of some people wasn’t so frightening, it would be laughable.
EGV 6:40PM
You’re not serious.
Mary -
I’m interested.
Do you think there are any “leaders” in national politics right now?
Who do you look up to and say is a ‘leader’?
Mary
I’m not being serious that I’m surprised you haven’t complained about taxpayer funded bowel movements.
I am serious when I say you are being petty for suggesting that Presidents shouldn’t get vacations.
EGV, 6:52PM
Unfortunately no one.
EGV 6:53PM
There are certainly plenty of taxpayer funded bowel movements in Washington, mainly by bulls.
I find myself dangerously close to not following Big Joe’s great words of wisdom.
Big Joe just called me.
He said it is a little lame for you to call out people for not being leaders, yet then say there’s no leaders out there. Easy to protest things. Much harder to provider alternatives, isn’t it?
Big Joe also says you are being petty.
EGV,
Good heavens EGV, things are worse for you than I thought. Big Joe has actually called and spoken to you? He’s been dead for years. Big Joe has never ”called” me, he has always been the memory of a devoted friend who protected me from danger and a potential stalker. I have always spoken of him in a metaphorical sense, well aware that he is long gone, though his great words of wisdom and what he taught me will always live on.
Well, uh, give him my best. Also, tell him our phone number is the same should he want to call me.
Mary, Ex-RINO must have worn out the letters on his ouiga board coming up with that one.
“Yep. Obama really inherited a mess from Obama with that ObamaCare thing, so he had to raise taxes.”
xalisae, you crack me up.
This entire thread is just ridiculous lol. Some hilarious gems there though.
Because of Obamacare taxes and mandates a lot of workers at Wendy’s found out today that they are getting their hours reduced from full time to part time and they are losing their private insurance today.
Hi ts,
I hear you. Frankly I don’t know how to respond. If Big Joe doesn’t remember my phone number, maybe I should try the ouija board.
Honestly ts, I never dreamed anyone thought my references to my long dead friend were anything but metaphorical.
“This entire thread is just ridiculous lol. Some hilarious gems there though.”
I know, the Sunday funnies threads always go in weird directions. :)
Hi Jack,
You have a point. Between taxpayer funded bowel movements and communing with the dearly departed, I think I need another glass of wine, Skinny Girl of course. What else for a fat old broad like me?
Hi JDC,
My dearly departed grandma always said, if we didn’t laugh we’d cry. Of course she didn’t call me recently to remind me.
truth -
Actually, I’d blame it on a mix of corporate greed and the issue of having insurance tied to employment, which we’ve talked about before.
Wendy’s is about to get SLAUGHTERED in the world of public opinion – happened to Papa Johns and Dennys and everyone else that has said that profits are more important.
Regardless, as a taxpayer you should be furious because these places have just increased your tax bill.
The solution though is to go the next logical step and untie employment from health insurance.
Hi Mary,
Well if she does call tell her there will be no crying around here tonight.
Hi JDC,
LOL, grandma would love you!
Ex-RINO, Wendy’s could afford health insurance as a benefit of employment for years. The fact that they got insurance through work is NOT what changed. They lost their insurance for ONE reason only. Obamacare mandates that priced policies out of their reach. Are you that obtuse that you won’t even admit it now that people are losing their insurance. You are totally blinded by hate for the GOP man.
Really Ex-RINO. Obamacare mandates price private health insurance out of the reach of the lower class and you blame employers. I am waiting for you to blame Bush.
That’s an ignorant statement and not even smart enough to be worthy of a full response.
Read some commentary on Papa Johns – the amount it would cost for insurance, and what the company ended up doing. Then get back to me. You clearly don’t understand the issues and economics here, and I’m not going to take the time to coach you through it this time. Plenty of literature out there – read it.
Ex-RINO,
The health insurance market was already in place. The lifetime caps were one reason policy prices were able to kept LOWER. Having insurance pools for people who only wanted major medical coverage made policies available at lower cost. Policies for pools of people without pre-existing conditions kept policies available at lower cost. Allowing businesses to choose the type of coverage they offered kept private insurance affordable. These are FACTS. And you don’t need to google Papa Johns or Denny’s or and any of the thousands of businesses that have needed waivers in order to understand. You only need to be able to think rationally.
“Regardless, as a taxpayer you should be furious because these places have just increased your tax bill.”
So we blame these businesses for the Obamcare tax increases? Why shouldn’t we blame Obama and the Democrats?
Your contention is essentially, that if no regulations exist, then companies can continue to pass more costs to individuals.
That downward spiral was crashing the system. Do some research before reform – the number of unisured, the growing numbers of people not on employer health care plans, and the amount of uncompensated care.
You might not like the system that was put in place, but you are advocating for a system that was crashing and burning before our eyes.
“I am sorry for those Catholics, many of whom I know, that voted against Obama.”
Mary, I guess we can also have sympathy for all the people who voted for Romney and that are losing their private health insurance.
“You might not like the system that was put in place, but you are advocating for a system that was crashing and burning before our eyes.”
Obamacare implementation is expected to raise the average cost of a health insurance policy for young adults in their twenties by 40% and millions of people will lose their insurance by next year. If it was crashing and burning for a few people then, it is imploding for everybody now.
Truth –
Some good information on some of the slanted media stories coming out about the big increases.
http://www.healthbeatblog.com/2013/01/ignore-the-hype-why-health-insurance-premiums-wont-skyrocket-in-2014/
And it seems we have returned to the traditional topic of every Sunday Funnies.
I decided I am pro-universal healthcare after watching all these arguments and weighing the evidence.
Jack, I am not sure what arguments you were talking about and I assume your comment wasn’t directed at me cause I was not arguing; I was merely stating the fact that Obamacare is making private care unaffordable to the poor and middle class and over the next two years millions of people will be losing their ability to care for themselves.
But answer these three things for me.
1) Why do you feel you have the right to tax me so you can get your “universal (government) care”? 2) If that is ok then where do you draw the line, should you also be entitled to me until we have universal housing too? 3) Since I don’t want government care wouldn’t you agree that the government has no business placing barriers on my right to purchase whatever type of health insurance policy I want in the private market without government mandating my policy choices?
#2 should have read – If that is ok then where do you draw the line, should you also be entitled to taxme until we have universal housing too?
I’m chomping at the bit here…but since the questions were directed at Jack, I’ll refrain.
I will simply state that one component of Truth’s question is factually wrong – all projections I’ve ever seen shows that the number of people covered by health care will be massively higher.
The concept of government taxing and fining the individual (however rich or poor) to the point where they are forced onto the government teat is communist. As an individual are willing to let government take control of your circumstances just so that you can get government care?
Chomp away Ex-RINO. But note that I said they will be losing their private care cause the mandates are pricing them out of the private insurance market and that they will be forced onto government care instead. Go ahead and answer.
If that is what you are stating, then you really worded it poorly. If somebody is getting their bills covered, whether it is on a private plan or public plan, they have care. You implied that they wouldn’t have care.
“millions of people will be losing their ability to care for themselves. ”
Again, if that is what you meant, you should word it differently.
I’ll let Jack make his case first – I’m heading to bed anyway.
“millions of people will be losing their ability to care for themselves. ”
I worded it precisely correct Ex-RINO. Look at the quote and stop long enough to take it in. They will be losing their ability to care for themselves (through their own hard work) and be forced onto the government teat for care instead.
“1) Why do you feel you have the right to tax me so you can get your “universal (government) care”? ”
You’re getting screwed under our current system anyway, with the crapload of people just bailing on their insanely high healthcare bills and passing those costs on to insured people and the government. I don’t understand why people don’t get this. You are already paying for people who can’t pay for care. You’re just doing it in the most inefficient and least cost effective way. I don’t see how paying a small tax is somehow way worse than paying higher insurance premiums and higher taxes when hospitals can’t eat the cost of uninsured people not paying their bills.
” 2) If that is ok then where do you draw the line, should you also be entitled to me until we have universal housing too?”
I don’t see housing costs going through the roof and being basically unattainable by a good portion of the population like healthcare is. It’s a silly thing to bring up.
“3) Since I don’t want government care wouldn’t you agree that the government has no business placing barriers on my right to purchase whatever type of health insurance policy I want in the private market without government mandating my policy choices? ”
What barriers? If you have the money, buy a private insurance policy. Some people choose to do that in Australia. Those people get a tax break because they are providing themselves with insurance and not taking advantage of the government plan. Seems simple enough.
“The concept of government taxing and fining the individual (however rich or poor) to the point where they are forced onto the government teat is communist. As an individual are willing to let government take control of your circumstances just so that you can get government care? ”
Lol that’s not communism. Scare tactics ftl. If anything it’s a form of partial socialism, which the US already has in some aspects (Medicare, Social Security, and Medicaid).
1) Jack believes that he is entitled to force other people to pay for HIS health insurance because if they don’t it will end up costing THEM more in premiums to pay for HIS care later. And he doesn’t understand why I can’t “get it”.
2) Jack, you say that you don’t see housing costs going up and being unattainable so you think this is a silly question that doesn’t even deserve an answer. I see it not only as possible but likely in the not too distant future as the private economy gets squashed under the government and government debt spirals under continued cycles of deficit spending. And when it happens I can only assume you would feel entitled to force other people to buy you a house too since you could rationalize that it would cost me less than paying your rent.
3)If you don’t see what barriers I am talking about then I will say it again. The barriers are the government mandates that are raising the cost of a minimum policy from as little as few hundred dollars a month (for catastrophic care coverage prior to Obamacare) to over a thousand dollars a month ‘minimum’ for an Obamacare compliant policy. The mandates are literally taking away peoples ability get affordabale care for themselves. That, my friend, is a barrier. Can you really still not see this Jack?
Jack, Medicare etc. did not take away peoples other inexpensive health insurance options. As part of Obamacare implementation the government takes away individuals health insurance options (and the options available to businesses) by mandating the minimum policy in the private marketplace comply with the government mandated policies. You not only want to force the government to give you a $1000 a month policy but you seem oblivious to the fact that Obamacare mandates ALL policies in the private market place include things that have more than tripled the minimum cost of any health insurance policy available in the private market.
“Jack believes that he is entitled to force other people to pay for HIS health insurance because if they don’t it will end up costing THEM more in premiums to pay for HIS care later. And he doesn’t understand why I can’t “get it”.”
Dude what do you expect? All right, explain whether I should pay rent so my kids and I have somewhere to live, food so we can eat, car insurance so I can get to work, or my ridiculously high bills from being in the hospital only twice ever (and one of those could have been prevented if I had access to an actual doctor before I got seriously ill). Which one of those things would you let slide if you couldn’t pay for all of them? I pay my hospital bills as much as I possibly can, whenever I get extra money basically. Hasn’t made much of a dent, and I skip payments every few months when it’s either feeding the kids or paying that.
If I get cancer or get hit by a car and can’t work what do you want to happen? Do we let me die or do those costs get eaten?
This is one thing I can’t stand. People in untenable situations getting told that they are “entitled” and don’t want to pay for their own healthcare when they don’t really have any options left. Facts are, healthcare bills are simply too high for a lot of people to pay. If people can’t pay them, the costs get passed on. If we insure these people, that saves everyone money overall. Most people want to pay their bills, a lot of people literally are not able to.
“And when it happens I can only assume you would feel entitled to force other people to buy you a house too since you could rationalize that it would cost me less than paying your rent. ”
None of this makes any sense. We already pay for people who absolutely can’t afford to live somewhere. It’s called housing programs. Most people don’t use it because most people can at least scrape up enough to pay rent, but we do pay for those who do use it. Do you think those people should be on the street or what? Do you think that people who can’t afford food shouldn’t eat? I don’t understand where you think the line should be drawn, actually.
“The barriers are the government mandates that are raising the cost of a minimum policy from as little as few hundred dollars a month (for catastrophic care coverage prior to Obamacare) to over a thousand dollars a month ‘minimum’ for an Obamacare compliant policy. The mandates are literally taking away peoples ability get affordabale care for themselves. That, my friend, is a barrier. Can you really still not see this Jack? ”
Show me the proof of this first off. And if the requirements price private plans out of some people’s reach they can go on a public option under a universal healthcare system. Like I said, under Australia’s system you get a tax break if you choose private insurance rather than public insurance, or if you choose no insurance you pay a fine to offset the costs of when you end up having to use healthcare services and possibly can’t pay for them. It’s a decent system, I’d like to see us under one.
Obamacare isn’t universal healthcare, btw. I think it’s propping up a failing system to be honest, and when it all collapses we’ll have to do something better.
“If I get cancer or get hit by a car and can’t work what do you want to happen? Do we let me die or do those costs get eaten?”
You should let the costs get “eaten”. I know I would rather that then watch Obamacare mandates drive millions of more poor and middle class people (besides you) onto the government teat. I don’t understand why you seem to be lacking empathy for these people since you express a sense of pride at being able to provide for yourself.
“Show me the proof of this first off.”
Jack, Prior to Obamacare it was legal to buy and sell any kind of health care insurance coverage you wanted. For just a few hundred dollars a month a person could buy a high deductible accident only or catastrophic illness only policy. The price would go up as you added things you wanted like regular doctors visits or maternity care or higher lifetime caps etc. The “Affordable Care Act” (Oh he irony) has made that illegal. With all the mandates the cheapest policy available to people in the private market is now estimated to cost over $1000 a month. This is why so many businesses are no longer able to provide employees health care as part of their compensation.
Jack, your utopian “universal health care” system is an endless financial disaster. The supposed minimum policy cost of $12k annually doesn’t even scratch the surface. There would be the additional deductibles and the cost of the government bureaucracy to run the program and to collect everybody’s health information into a government database and to collect fines and taxes and litigate and on and on and on. The payoffs and cronyism inherent in government managing funds alone would cost taxpayers more then you think. Just giving you government run health care would cost taxpayers more to insure you each year then your entire annual income and a helluva a lot more than “eating” a $100k in emergency care every few year. The government has shown NO ability to manage funds. They haven’t even been able to pass a budget in the past four years. Only 16% of the American people approve of the job congress is doing with their funds now. It baffles that anybody other than a government worker (who gets paid by taxpayers or government cronyism) could actually want our government manage the health care system. IMO it borders on insanity.
If I don’t need care, and don’t carry insurance, I’m not incurring any cost from those I’m supposedly “already paying for” who ditch on their bills (the vast majority of whom are illegal aliens, so the problem could be GREATLY alleviated through immigration reform instead of taxes and socialism).
However, due to ObamaTax, my better half’s paychecks were in-total 80 bucks short this month. EIGHTY DOLLARS. We incurred that cost despite the fact that I can’t remember the last time either of us used the services of a physician. And, we’ll be incurring that every single month for the year. And, that’s IN ADDITION TO the amount that his own insurance premium has gone up under ObamaTax-so really we’re paying waaaay more for this than we would have by them just not passing ObamaTax and our relatively healthy selves just not needing physician’s services. Couple that with the idea there were already provisions in place for poor children (the medicaid services of many states-mine is one-rendered most of Obama’s plan redundant) and we’re just paying many times over for something we didn’t need anyway. Woohoo. I’d rather have the 80 dollars, Jack.
So I was reading the comments this morning, thinking I’d skip commenting and just go to work, but xalisae’s is so false, so ridden with inaccurate information, that I’ve got to comment.
1) You are incurring costs. Uncompensated care gets passed on in most states to medicaid (taxpayers), or to those who are insured (which raises cost of doing business).
2) The vast majority of people without insurance aren’t illegal aliens. There have been close to 50 million people uninsured the last few years. We don’t have near that in illegal immigrants. Your statement is so false, it borders on a reckless lie.
3) If you think health care reform had anything to do with the ending of the payroll tax, you are an idiot. And I mean that in the kindest way possible. The GOP tried to get rid of the payroll tax holiday a year ago. If Obama wanted a grand plan to generate revenue for reform, he would have let everything expire and he would have had all the revenue he wanted. Your statement is again, so illogical and wrong it borders on lying.
4) For somebody who has made themselves out to be a very poor person, you seem to be doing pretty well. If your better have was $80 short, that means he’s making $75K plus a year (if he gets two checks a month). If he gets one check a month, it is close to $40K. The payroll tax was a 2% of top line income figure.
5) In most states, insurance rates have SLOWED since reform came into play. What state are you in – I’ll check it out.
6) At any point, you could get into an accident, find out you have cancer, or have a number of other things. The government, by order of Reagan, is legally obligated to treat you in an emergency situation regardless of your ability to pay. To argue that you shouldn’t have to pay is arguing to be a freeloader – to throw off all personal responsibility and throw it onto others.
Truth –
At this point, all I’m going to say is, if you really want to debate this with me, you are going to wish you understood health care better.
So your man Paul Ryan, whose plan you’ve supported over the years – as a key cornerstone, wanted to get rid of the business tax credit that employers receive for offering insurance to employees. The belief was that getting people of employer health care plans and into the free market (with health exchanges to buy policies) would lead to lower prices through competition.
http://ebn.benefitnews.com/news/ryan-health-tax-credit-2726976-1.html
So you are really pissed about people losing their health care at work, and your support is for a plan which has a key position to more aggressively get people off of their health plans at work.
Again, if you want to debate this stuff, I’d do more research. Jack is learning and doing great. I’ve carve you up and eat you for dinner. (figuratively of course).
:-)
Off to work!
Just checked w/Mr. X, and the actual number is $20 less per pay period weekly on one check,
and we’re not sure about the other one yet. But that’s STILL at least a thousand dollars over the course of a year we’d like to have, Ex-RINO.
Part of payroll tax increases this year is an increase in Medicare tax. Medicare was robbed to pay for ObamaTax. They basically raised taxes to pay for ObamaTax and covered it up by laundering the money through Medicare so they wouldn’t have to say that they raised taxes to pay for ObamaTax.
I didn’t say that most uninsured were illegal immigrants. I said that most people welching on their medical bills are illegals. In some hospitals, as much as two-thirds of total operating costs are for uncompensated care for illegal aliens. As a result, hundreds of emergency departments have closed. In Los Angeles, for example, 10 hospitals have closed in the past five years because of uncompensated care.
Mr. X was lucky enough to find decent employment recently, but he was also in a large amount of debt due to the industry he was in before he met me. I am also in a large amount of debt due to my divorce and lack of employment. Sorry we’re not poor enough for you, Ex-RINO, but you don’t know our budget and expenses, either.
Don’t bother looking it up, I already did:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/aroy/2012/10/29/in-wisconsin-obamacare-to-increase-individual-insurance-premiums-by-30-says-obama-adviser/
Also, why do you ASSUME that if I get cancer, or get into an accident, or ANYTHING like that, I’d just “freeload”? I don’t have to have insurance to pay medical bills. Even if I or my family members are paying small payments for the rest of our life, the default option is not “freeload”. I swear, only in your mind, Ex-RINO, are the two options “DIEEEEE!!!” or “Freeload.”
But I guess people tend to just gravitate towards ideas they’re comfortable with.
xalisae, more like Ex-RINO has sink-holes for idea receptors.
“I don’t understand why you seem to be lacking empathy for these people since you express a sense of pride at being able to provide for yourself. ”
I lack empathy for no one. I simply don’t agree with your doomsday scenarios. The poor and middle class people you are talking about are already costing you money. I would rather see them on a public healthcare option and actually get preventative care and have costs covered rather than watch them try and fail to pay astronomical bills and have those costs passed on to everyone anyway.
“ If I don’t need care, and don’t carry insurance, I’m not incurring any cost from those I’m supposedly “already paying for” who ditch on their bills (the vast majority of whom are illegal aliens, so the problem could be GREATLY alleviated through immigration reform instead of taxes and socialism).”
You personally may not be getting costs passed on to you. People with insurance are. And the government is. And I would like to see some data on how many of the hospital bills that aren’t being paid are due to illegal immigration. It’s a right wing talking point I’ve seen bandied around that I have never seen any evidence for.
And like Ex said, as an uninsured person you are a liability. Cancer treatments can run into the millions, accidents with needed surgeries and physical therapy can run into the tens of thousands or more (my ankel surgery and one day in the ER was over 10k all together I believe, not including the physical therapy I never received because I couldn’t afford). Even with the best of intentions you or Mr X could end up suddenly having thousands and thousands in hospital bills you can’t pay, especially if you are disabled. And being able to pay 50 bucks a month or so on your bills like I do isn’t really helping the situation. I’m not freeloading, but I contribute to the problem by simply not being able to pay enough into the system to make up for the resources I took. I would rather pay some taxes every month and not be in debt for the rest of my life and basically be kept economically immobile because of it. I can’t really afford higher taxes but I can’t afford healthcare either.
truth -
The silence is deafening.
Are you shocked to find out that the policy you are railing against is something fundamental to a plan you supported?
It is like medicare – you rail against costs, and support a plan that cut Medicare, yet when Obama had medicare savings realized, you revolted.
Do you know what you support?
Do you read anything that isn’t linked from the Drudge report?
What is your response to the article I posted?
“The poor and middle class people you are talking about are already costing you money”
No Jack, they are losing their insurance and being forced onto Obamacare.
xalisae
Glad to see you report the actual, correct amount.
Now, you are still posting information that I believe to be untrue, so you’ll need to back it up if you want to continue to spout it. Health Care Reform, as judged by the CBO, was paid for in the package. The phase out of the payroll tax holiday had NOTHING to do with health care reform. It is simply illogical to suggest – if Obama wanted more revenue, he wouldn’t have brokered a deal at all. The tax rates all were going up Jan 1st – he could have had all the revenue he wanted.
On Medicare, you are only paying more if you are making six figures:
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Small-Businesses-&-Self-Employed/Questions-and-Answers-for-the-Additional-Medicare-Tax
Uncompensated care is an issue. Supporting more people being uninsured is a heck of a way to combat that, don’t you think? It is as if you are hotel owner renting rooms to 18 year olds, and giving the proceeds to a pro life organization. If you are supporting less people having insurance, don’t complain about uncompensated care.
I said you would free load because I’m playing the statistics. Most people without insurance don’t pay their bills. It’s simply a fact. And if you had something terrible, God forbid, and had a six figure bill, as Jack pointed out, $50 a month isn’t going to cut it.
truth -
Health care reform will insure more people than the policies you support.
And the policies you support would throw people out of employer coverage PLUS they wouldn’t have other plans to fall back on.
Figure out what you support and then get back to me.
“Are you shocked to find out that the policy you are railing against is something fundamental to a plan you supported?”
You are thick as a brick. I am railing against the mandates in Obamacare that are forcing millions out affordable health care. Show me where Ryan’s plan has mandates like that. Oh wait…it doesn’t.
And silence is deafening to you because your brain screams when you don’t have anybody’s posts to ignore.
truth:
http://www.kaiserhealthnews.org/stories/2012/august/11/paul-ryan-republican-vice-president-candidate-medicare.aspx
“Throughout his career and most recently in the Roadmap for America’s Future, supported market-based reforms such as interstate insurance purchasing and the creation of association health plans, as well as efforts to decouple health coverage from the workplace, including removing tax incentives for employer-sponsored insurance and providing tax credits to individuals to purchase their own insurance.”
Where does Ryan’s plan mandate any specific kind of coverage? Oh it doesn’t.
truth –
Who cares that there are less mandates if there’s no tangible, end benefit?
What is the lack of mandates getting?
More people covered?
Better coverage for people?
Who gives a tiny rat’s behind about lack of mandates if it doesn’t end up with any benefit. If there’s no mandate, and the result is less people insured, and those with insurance have worse insurance, are we celebrating a lack of a mandate?
What’s the tangible benefit you are excited about here?
The tangible benefit is that health insurance affordable health insurance policies are made illegal because mandated coverages raises the price of policies out of their reach. The big lie about being able to keep your policy you had.
If your health insruance policy does not include maternity coverage..you cannot keep it. If your health insurance policy does not contain annual checkups at no cost…you cannot keep it. If your health insurance policy contains a lifetime benefit cap…you cannot keep it. If your health insurance policy does not include free abortificients and contraception and other development reduction resources then you cannot keep it. I have stated this over and over. How can you be that thick to be asking me this question again?
Why don’t you try answering your own question. Maybe it will click. You tell me Ex-RINO, what is the tangible benefit of being able to choose health insurance policies that are tailored to your own needs and wishes?
No truth – we’re not done with the question yet.
So if you believe that the mandates are pricing policies out of reach, the statistical measure of that would be that the projections should say that less people will have health insurance under health care reform than they will under Ryan’s plan.
Do you agree that this should be the case, or how do you measure your assertion?
Policies are more expensive and people can no longer afford to pay for insurance policies for themselves but they are still able to stay insured because other people are now forced to pay for their insurance policies.
truth – again, that would make sense if you presented an alternative that was different.
The alternative you are suggesting though is that more people will be uninsured, under the plan you support, and when those people need care, other people are now forced to pay for their hospital bills.
So I don’t get how you feel one position is morally superior – you seem to want to promote a system of freeloading, under insured people and the tangible benefit is…less insured people? It doesn’t make sense.
You are supporting a dead end argument, and still haven’t addressed with any rational explanation how earlier you were so mad some fast food workers might lose their employer based insurance, while fully supporting a plan in which the goal is to actively move people off of employer based insurance.
You can bold all the statements you want – it doesn’t automatically make them logical. The dumbest arguments are typically the loudest.
Taking away peoples ability to provide for themselves and adding millions to the “dependent class” is immoral. By your logic it is good government policy to pass laws that create a million more unemployed people as long as the government provides them with more in compensation (food stamps and unemployment) then they could have earned if they hadn’t forced them out of their jobs.
Willingness to suckle people on the government teat does not make it moral to pass laws that take away lower and middle class peoples ability to provide for their own health care.
Now tell me what you think would be the tangible benefit of being able to choose health insurance policies that are tailored to your own needs and wishes?
A family of four earning $60,000 could pay about $5,000 a year for an Obamacare policy. If they fail to remain compliant then they face the IRS coming after them for $2,085 per family by 2016, or 2.5% of annual income, whichever is greater. And all those compounding penalties and interest could drive a family into bankruptcy quicker then having no insurance at all. I had student loans that went 90 days into default and Sallie Mae sold my loan to some other bank that who tacked on another 80% in collection fees and penalties, so I know the danger in this. And they won’t forgive this debt even if you file for bankruptcy. Obamacare is political is all it is. It is rife with cronyism and payola and bureaucracy. The true purpose behind the Democrats pushing through Obamacare was not making health care affordable, it was political. It is one more way the Democrats can keep the poor and middle class under their thumb and dependent on the government teat.
truth – we’ll get to your questions soon enough – we’ve got to vet out this thought of yours.
Just about everyone has their healthcare subsidized by the federal government. The article I posted about Ryan – what that essentially is saying is that if you have insurance through your employer, your employer gets a tax break (federal support) to provide that health care.
So your argument essentially is saying that you believe some people should go without health care because they would be dependent on the government if they took advantage of government programs – and taking advantage of those programs would be immoral. Is that the basics of your argument?
If it is, do you then further say that somebody who doesn’t have insurance would be immoral if they brought their kid in for emergency care, since that would be taking advantage of others provision and government assistance?
Please correct me if I’m wrong, because you basically seem to be asserting that people should choose to die, or let their kids die, rather than get on an insurance plan covered by the government, or receive care that they can’t pay for.
I say Obamacare takes away lower and middle class peoples ability to provide for their own health care by making their current policy illegal for them to own and making a replacement policy unaffordable. And you twist that into “seeming to say’ people should die or let their kids should die. What a lark.
What about the IRS coming after people. You didn’t seem to dispute that post either.
truth – the numbers simply don’t support what you are saying.
Any analysis of health care reform is going to point to higher number of people insured. Yes, some people will be covered now by Medicaid because of the higher threshold. But most people will buy their coverage on the open market using subsidies (which I’ve already shown you and I take advantage of with our employer based coverage).
Ryan’s plan, the plan you support, would simply leave these people without insurance.
And I don’t think my argument is a “lark”. You seem to think it is bad for people to get government assistance. Not many people are going to go from having their own coverage to being on assistance – yes, there will be some. But it isn’t like millions are going to go that route. Regardless, the plan you support leaves tens of millions more without insurance. Do you think it is then good, under that system, for people to rely on the government for health care?
Just answer me this – if Ryan’s plan is going to leave tens of millions more uninsured, which it would (we could look at the data if you don’t agree with that point) – why do you find it so bad if somebody is in a health care plan with government support, and yet don’t find it equally bad if they are getting emergency care paid for, in part, by the government?
truth – honestly, I’ve barely glanced at your questions – we’ve almost to the end of my line of questioning, and then you can fire away. I just don’t want to get into four arguments all at the same time (if that’s fair with you).
Ex-RINO, How about you stay on focus then and try commenting more about Obamacare and less derailing by talking about Paul Ryan’s plan.
Let’s try a simple true or false and see if you stay on topic.
True or False – Most of the health care policies on the market prior to Obamacare would now be illegal to buy or sell.
truth – not yet – you can finish my questioning first.
Ryan is relevant because that is the type of health care plan you support. If you don’t support his plan, let me know.
The support of his plan, and the non-support of health care reform is causing some issues for you logically. Regardless, my last post again:
Just answer me this – if Ryan’s plan is going to leave tens of millions more uninsured, which it would (we could look at the data if you don’t agree with that point) – why do you find it so bad if somebody is in a health care plan with government support, and yet don’t find it equally bad if they are getting emergency care paid for, in part, by the government?
Ex-RINO, Why are you so obsessive about Ryan’s plan? You throw it out there and make claims and want to show support for claim that would hypothetically be illogical yada yada yada. If we were in a room together you would have your thumbs in your ears and wiggling your fingers like a kid going na na na na na….na nananana na.
It would be obvious to anybody reading this thread why you won’t stay on the topic of Obamacare.
Three questions for you. True or False:
1) Most health care policies on the market prior to Obamacare would now be illegal to buy or sell.
2) There are no tangible benefits to being able to choose health insurance policies that are tailored to your own needs and wishes?
3) The IRS won’t fine families over $2k each year and compound it with penalties and interest for not complying with the Obamacare mandates.
truth – I can’t compare health care reform to Utopia. If you don’t support Ryan’s plan, is the assumption then that you support the status quo – the system we’ve have in place pre-reform? I can talk to things theoretically, but if you have some unknown plan where everything is perfect – if that is what you are holding up as the bar, then this exercise isn’t going to go very far.
Just answer me that and we’ll get to your questions. Previously, you had supported Ryan’s plans, and I felt like it was a worthwhile exercise to show you that his plan, quite frankly, is terrible – even to the standards that you hold up. You seem to want people to keep their employer based coverage – he doesn’t do that. You seem to want people to not live off government assistance – he doesn’t accomplish that.
Simply put, Health Care Reform > Paul Ryan’s plan.
Confirm that I’m comparing against the status quo (the old system) as i answer questions, and I’ll get to it.
truth – I can’t compare health care reform to Utopia. If you don’t support Ryan’s plan, is the assumption then that you support the status quo – the system we’ve have in place pre-reform? Just answer me that and we’ll get to your questions.”
All my posts have been comparing Obamacare to peoples existing policies and policy options they had prior to Obamacare. Over and over. And you can;t figure out what is being compared. I am sorry if you have some learning disability that makes you unable to absorb what other people say. If you do then come out and say it cause I don’t want to be rude to you if you have previously been diagnosed unaware that there is even a problem.
The trolls around here fancy themselves larks but they are really just idiots.
truth – for the last year plus, you’ve supported Ryan’s plan. It is natural then to compare reality then to Ryan’s plan. That was a jerky thing to say and was uncalled for – we’ve had a great conversation up until now.
Apologize, then I’ll get to your questions – just let me know which ones to start with (after the apology).
Seriously – there’s no need to be such a jerk. Be respectful once in a while.
No Ex-RINO, you have liked to bring up Ryan’s plan instead of addressing the real problems with Obamacare. You will never get to my questions.
Ball is your court truth – I’m not going to go through the motions if you’re going to be a jerk about things. You know I like talking healthcare and will answer any questions – especially against the status quo (since Ryan’s plan, which you once embraced, seems to now be rejected).
Regardless – apologize, we can then move on. This is my last post on this thread until that happens.
Maybe Big Joe will call you again and you can discuss it with him.