Stanek Sunday quote: “He filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the Lord would not forgive”
The LORD sent Babylonian, Aramean, Moabite and Ammonite raiders against him. He sent them to destroy Judah, in accordance with the word of the LORD proclaimed by his servants the prophets.
Surely these things happened to Judah according to the LORD’s command, in order to remove them from his presence because of the sins of Manasseh and all he had done, including the shedding of innocent blood. For he had filled Jerusalem with innocent blood, and the LORD was not willing to forgive.
~ As we approach the 40th anniversary of Roe v. Wade, I am reminded of II Kings 24:2-4. II Kings 21:6 tells us King Manasseh went so far as to sacrifice his own son to a false idol, which is equivalent to the impetus for abortion. At some point there is no going back. Genesis 4:10 says the blood of just one innocent person cried out to God from the ground. How much louder does the blood of 55 million cry out to God for justice?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Does your concern about what God might do because of the shedding of innocent blood extend to the innocent men who have probably been killed under our death penalty Laws? Noting Genesis 4:10 just like you did, it takes only one.
Joe G., that’s the reason that everybody is to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. God’s minister, the civil government (read Romans 13) does have the “power of the sword,” which is only used to kill. The civil government is responsible to God–yes, even in democracies (and empires like crazy Nero’s in the apostle Paul’s time). I’m not God, but I would think that proof beyond a reasonable doubt does mean something.
Certainly God requires the death penalty for the crime of murder. Read Genesis 9 to understand the sanctity of human life.
How about we revoke the death penalty after we ban abortion. I am sympathetic to death penalty victims who were not guilty but I don’t see their adevocates outside of abortion centers while tiny human beings are being killed. Their crime – being unwanted by either their parents or being defective in the view of the medical profession.
How about we form an alliance, death penalty opponents.
We hear the ‘death penalty’ thing a lot. I think that if every conceived child were entitled to legal representation, and, every time a woman went to procure an abortion, she would have to present her case before a judge AND the child’s legal advocate, THEN and only then would the ‘death penalty hypocrisy’ meme have any traction. I feel less concern for prisoners who have legal representation because look they have their advocate. The child is powerless and without representation, subject to being bullied to death without due legal process.
I take it “joeG” is a Liberal.
Many of the “Blue” states have either ended the Death penalty “de Jure” or
de facto ended it by not executing anyone for in some cases decades. The irony is
if you look at many of these states, both death by abortion and by other death violence is high.
Compare Illinois’ violent death rate and abortion rate to some of the Red states.
“I take it “joeG” is a Liberal.”
No, I’m just not a hypocrite. I don’t believe in shedding ANY innocent blood. If that means ending a system which by its human design is almost guaranteed to kill the innocent along with the guilty, then so be it. I can wait for God’s true justice to have my vengeance. If vengeance is his will.
Vengeance is His will, JoeG:
“Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. (Rom. 12:19)
“If you do evil, be afraid; for [the governing authority] does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.” (Rom. 13:4)
Re the death penalty- surely only the Lord can judge who lives and dies. Society must impose judgement on crime but not to the point of killing. He gave us a new covenant which is largely based on love and God’s forgiveness.
Only God can decide His vengeance.
Marie, I quoted from Romans. Romans is in the New Testament. And my quote says that the civil government is the Lord’s minister to execute His vengeance. It has the power of the sword, which is only used to kill. That’s what the Bible says. That’s what God says.
I don’t really see any rational secular argument for the death penalty, really, and the biblical arguments don’t mean anything legally. If we can put them away for life and keep the public safe that will always be a better option than risking an innocent person’s death, in my mind. I’m glad people are so cavalier about that possibility of an innocent’s death through our screwed up system, it’s heartwarming.
And arguments from the current state of American legal affairs don’t mean anything Biblically. Protestant Christians believe that the Bible is the rule of faith and practice.
“Protestant Christians believe that the Bible is the rule of faith and practice” – well some do, not very many though. And the US is not a christian theocracy.
@Jon
So How many? How many innocent lives are you willing to kill for every guilty one.
1 for 20 or 1 for 10 or 1 for 5…….
What number do you believe is fair and just and Christian (christ like)?
Lastly, will you volunteer yourself or someone you love to be that innocent victim so that the rest of us can have our guilty blood?
Joe G., why are you asking me? I’m not God. Christ, however, is God. God has said that the death of the murderer is the just penalty for the crime of murder. Capital punishment for the crime of murder is 100% Christian.
Mind if I ask a few questions? (Ha! Already asking with that first sentence LOL) But anyway…
How is it that in order to advocate for the right-to-life to the unborn you have to be in favor of the death penalty?
Yeah, I get the whole in both situations a life is on the line, but they are NOT the exact SAME situations, are they? So why treat them EXACTLY the same?
Ooops, typo, that should read “you have to be AGAINST the death penalty”
As far as I’m concerned, Mother in Texas, you could just as well keep your original question with its typo. That question was just as good. The death penalty for the premeditated murder of any human being, the smallest and least developed as well as the largest and most intelligent, demonstrates the right to life of the unborn human being. It’s fair and just. It shows the sanctity of human life. Loss of one’s own life is a high price to understood.
I do understand that the current laws against murder in the US do not apply to the murder of pre-born children.
Oops, my own typo, that should read “is a high price to PAY”.”
And now let Joe G. reply to Mother in Texas…
But Jon, the only problem with that is that none of the political leaders are God’s minister!
@ Mother in Texas
I am not arguing against the death penalty for a murderer. I am arguing against a system that in its implementation kills the innocent with the guilty. Ms. Stanek’s quote of the day implies that Genesis 4:10 is a reason to end abortion. I am suggesting that Genesis 4:10 is also a reason to end a death penalty system that kills the innocent with the guilty. In general, our justice system makes mistakes. But only through the application of the death penalty is that mistake final and irreversible Both our abortion system and our death penalty system provide personal satisfaction to individuals by sacrificing innocent lives. For one group it is the satisfaction of convenience and for the other it is the satisfaction of vengeance. Neither group is willing to give up their own personal satisfaction to save an innocent life. So to me, they are one in the same.
The reason that they are 55 million dead innocents is because there are 55 million people like Jon (who happen to be female) who must have their satisfaction. They care only for themselves. That is the true nature of the culture of death.
I regret my abortion.
It brought no “satisfaction.” It nearly destroyed me.
And Joe?
Bear in mind I am not the only post abortive mother who regrets her abortion who comments here.
The true nature of abortion? It is child sacrifice. It is satan’s business. It belongs to the father of lies and his minions. Evil. Evil. Evil.
And the true nature of the death penalty for committing murder? It is justice. It is the business of the civil government. It is necessary and right in this world of violence.
Marie wrote, “But Jon, the only problem with that is that none of the political leaders are God’s minister!”
The apostle Paul and the Holy Spirit say they are, don’t they? See the verses I quoted above.
Like I said Jon, it’s heart-warming how worried you are about the innocent that die along with the guilty in our system for capital punishment. Not to mention the fact that it’s more expensive than life in prison and has absolutely no measurable deterent effect.
I don’t see how people who are all “even one elective abortion is too many!” (which I agree with) can simply shrug off people who are put to death by the state who could possibly be innocent. Even if you ignore every single other argument against capital punishment, the fact remains that it could kill someone innocent.
Joe G. wrote, “There are 55 million people like Jon… who must have their satisfaction. They care only for themselves.”
Please explain where this accusation came from. It’s false. Consider the following passage immediately preceding the passage on the role of the civil government as God’s minister to carry out His vengeance.
Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary:
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. (Rom. 12:17-21)
Jack Borsch wrote, “Like I said Jon, it’s heart-warming how worried you are… [you] shrug off people who are put to death”
Go back to the top of this thread, Jack, and read my first comment there again.
Jack Borsch wrote, “Not to mention the fact that it’s more expensive than life in prison and has absolutely no measurable deterent effect.”
Oh? according to which researchers and in what country and in what time in history?
I know of two Chinese friends who went to a foreign country together. The one murdered the young sons of the other; these children had attended the school where I was a teacher. “Butchered like pigs!” read the headline in that country’s newspaper. The country does not have capital punishment; China does.
It’s just a personal anecdote and doesn’t necessarily prove anything, but it means something to me.
Jack Borsch wrote, “Even if you ignore every single other argument against capital punishment, the fact remains that it could kill someone innocent.”
It does. Even good people make mistakes, but some people are like Nero who was not good at all. Nero fiddled while Rome burned and then blamed it on the Christians. I think he was the one who dipped Christians in oil and set them on fire as torches at his garden parties. He was also the emperor in power at the time the apostle Paul wrote to the Roman Christians about vengeance and the civil government.
http://www.economist.com/node/13279051 info on death penalty expenses. It’s so much more expensive to put someone to death than give them life without parole that states are thinking about doing away with capital punishment to save money in the recession.
http://www8.nationalacademies.org/onpinews/newsitem.aspx?recordid=13363 info on the lack of proof of a deterent effect. I can put more links later. For every study that claims that there is a deterent effect there is another that claims otherwise. Death penalty states also have higher murder rates than non-death penalty states, which doesn’t prove anything by itself but is something to think about.
“It does. Even good people make mistakes, but some people are like Nero who was not good at all. Nero fiddled while Rome burned and then blamed it on the Christians. I think he was the one who dipped Christians in oil and set them on fire as torches at his garden parties. He was also the emperor in power at the time the apostle Paul wrote to the Roman Christians about vengeance and the civil government.”
I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. I don’t know how some bad stuff that happened 2000 years ago has any relevance to today whatsoever. And I don’t really care much about Paul’s opinions on the death penalty. We aren’t a theocracy, if we are going to have it as a law then there needs to be tangible reasons for it. I would wager a guess that we see the criminal justice system quite a bit differently anyway.
Jack Borsch wrote, “I don’t really care much about Paul’s opinions on the death penalty.”
No, but you do care. You said the death penalty for murder might result in the death of somebody innocent. In Romans 13 Paul was writing to Roman Christians who were ruled by a persecuting despot who killed many of them. He said that that despot was God’s minister and had the power of sword. You’re worrying about a few people wrongly killed; Paul was speaking to many people who were being wrongly killed, not accidentally but deliberately. And still he said that the ruler was God’s minister, told Christians to submit to him, and said that he had the power, right, perhaps even responsibility, to kill evil-doers. The fact is that the civil government consists of people, not God, and all people are sinful and fallible. Many mistakes will be made. And there’s an infinite chasm of a difference between the accidental deaths of a few who were wrongfully convicted and fifty-five million intentionally left unprotected to be put to death.
Jack Borsch wrote, “I don’t really care much about Paul’s opinions on the death penalty.”
And that’s where we part. I care very much what Paul wrote in his letter to the Roman Christians because it is not merely his opinion but the expression of the will of God. “Let God be found true, but every man a liar.” (Rom. 3:4)
So even if the death penalty currently costs more than life imprisonment in litigious America (because I doubt it did in the past, or that it currently does in China, for example), and even if some biased and very limited research (because that’s what I think it is) shows that the death penalty has no deterrent effect, then I still believe in the death penalty for premeditated murder.
Sin offends God and must be paid for. The greater the sin, the higher the price. But murder is not unforgivable; the sin against the Holy Spirit is. You are in danger of that.
Jon, you really think people like Barack Obama and Julia Gillard (our Australian PM) are God’s ministers?
Marie, the word minister is used three times in the New King James Version of Romans 13:4-6. The New International Version uses the phrase “God’s servant.”
Quite clearly, if evil Emperor Nero was God’s servant, then Barack Obama and Julia Gillard also are. God uses them, in spite of their rebellion, to accomplish His purposes.
“Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.” (Rom. 13:1)