“EastSiders” web series creator: Abortion “not always difficult”
Q: Did you have the feeling that abortion was something that needed to be portrayed more realistically on screen?
A: The most realistic examples I can think of are Parenthood or Friday Night Lights, but both of those shows were dealing with teenage pregnancy, which is a very different situation.
Several of my friends have had abortions, and I’ve never really seen an abortion on a TV show that reflected their experience. I’m not saying it’s fun, but it’s not always the horribly conflicted, nightmarishly difficult decision it’s made out to be.
~ Actor, writer, playwright, and director Kit Williamson (pictured) explaining his decision to feature an abortion storyline on the
“comedic and gay-leaning web series EastSiders,” in an interview with Entertainment Weekly, May 14
[Video at the link; Photo credit: Kit Williamson’s Twitter page]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Kit – the only reason why it’s not horrific to you, is that you’ve never found yourself on the wrong end of a vacuum aspiration cannula.
Additionally, it doesn’t seem you’ve undergone the procedure yourself, nor likely to have your child shredded.
Apparently, you’re so self absorbed, you’re not even sensitive enough to realize there are many out there who have suffered from abortion, and that includes enough horror stories to warrant a serious handling.
BTW – if you want to do some research – start with the video “Hard Truth” (about abortion).
Then maybe you won’t treat it as a profit-driven “exposure” storyline.
I’m going to suggest that this a good thing.
The abortion industry has thrived in the silence. The more conversation there is, the more truth will be exposed. Even if a well-funded portion of the conversation is trying to be sympathetic to the abortion industry.
Any portrayal of abortion will eventually have to show a woman who suffers from her decision to kill her child, or who dwells in denial of what she has done. Most post-abortive women do both. An honest and sensitive portrayal will follow the woman until she achieves some peace. And even show some of the tortured afthermath that abortion brings — remember the extended storyline in Grey’s Anatomy, when a self-centered woman’s abortion decision also resulted in the tragic demise of her marriage?
Viewers will have a chance to discern whether a story seems honest. Much better than the shroud of silence that currently protects abortionists, feeding them a steady stream of frightened and ill-informed women, young and poor.
lol, trollin’ the Facebook page:
https://www.facebook.com/EastSidersTheSeries
“I’m not saying it’s fun, but it’s not always the horribly conflicted, nightmarishly difficult decision it’s made out to be.”
Good on this guy, for showing that not every woman who aborts is a victim. Some are just cold, uncaring, and callous towards their child. Some women just really are *that* self-absorbed, and the Pro-Life Movement would do well to acknowledge that instead of pretending it’s not true.
Some women are.
Their hearts are hard to the truth. They claim to be Christians. They claim that God will forgive them. They know what they are doing. They know fetal development and still they go through with it.
I have sat with them in Rachel’s Vineyard retreats as they finally reach out for the healing only Christ can bring. I have watched them struggle to get their stories out through their sobbing.
And the intent of every abortion remains the same. Fun. Not fun. Difficult. Not difficult. Nightmare. Not a nightmare.
And to quote Megs “Whoever said abortion was pretty?”
The intent of an abortion is to take the life of an innocent human being.
As the actress who played Kathy, the character who has an abortion, I can assure that Kit Williamson had a serious talk with me about it and why he made the decision to have this storyline. You’re right, he does NOT know how it feels to have a vacuum aspiration cannula. But a writer’s job is to reflect the truth of what he knows, and he and I both have friends who have had the procedure. And for those friends, when they spoke of it, they honestly weren’t always nightmarishly conflicted about it. At least in appearance. Different people experience different feelings in their life. That said, as a woman I am keenly aware of the fact that Kit and I’s friends who have gone through that may very well have gone through their own secret personal, private emotional turmoil that is too painful to show to friends. So their behavior masks that. Some people are more private about their insecurities, fears, and regrets. But Kit was writing the truth of what HE has seen and experienced. As the actress, I’ve never had an abortion, so I had to do extensive research on the procedure, and I can assure you that it certainly made me feel (as the character) incredible guilt and heartbreak. And I think that comes across in both the writing and the performance. But when Kathy talks about it to her friends, she mostly covers up her shame because it’s sometimes just hard to share that part of yourself. So I can see why Kit would see and portray women being cavalier about it. Because sometimes that’s how people behave as defense mechanisms to block themselves from being emotionally vulnerable. Or maybe sometimes, they just honestly ARE that cavalier about it. Who knows? Everyone is allowed their own privacy. But he was also responsible enough director to allow me to have my take on it, as an actress and a woman. He cared about that, and about making me comfortable, about hearing my thoughts on it. My character is typically very comical, but in this episode she gets very dark and sad. Because, if you REALLY listen to the dialogue… this episode is NOT about promoting abortions or saying they’re NDB– rather it’s about trying to live with yourself after the mistakes you’ve made. The character of Kathy made a mistake: in the heat of the moment she was really stupid and had unprotected sex. That’s a mistake, we all make mistakes. She knew she was emotionally incapable of carrying an infant to term, so she made a decision based on that. And YES, she felt guilt, she questioned herself “Am I a good person, Thom?” she says, and in Thom’s response Kit doesn’t have the story promote or affirm Kathy’s decision in that moment…. instead he has the characters of Thom and Kathy explore the ramification of human mistakes, why you do it (“I wish I could excuse myself, I WISH” but she can’t), the guilt that follows, and need to move on and try to be a better, more responsible person from there on out. I’m sure YOU and everyone has done some really dumb stuff in the past, we’re all human, and we’ve all been young, but after a certain point you have to stop punishing yourself, because you can’t change the past, and you move on and try to be as good a person as you can the next day… As Kit’s beautiful writing says “Who I can be tomorrow” that can change things.
This episode is about more than your bitchy soapbox prolife/prochoice issue. In no way is Kit promoting abortions, I can ASSURE you that from the way he coached me through the process… he wasn’t acting like it was no big deal either… he was simply sharing his experiences of what his friends have shared with him about the experience. This episode is not a political statement about abortion. It’s a story of people going through tough stuff in life. It’s about human mistakes, including infidelity and lying to one’s partner, and moving on trying to tell the truth and be better from here on out.
CAL: Did you tell Ian?
KATHY: No, but I’m going to.
Kathy lied and did a difficult thing, but she can’t change the past, so she’s made a decision to do tell the truth from here on out. Really actually LISTEN to the dialogue and the NARRATIVE STORY, instead of looking for some kind of platform from which to shout your politics, and maybe you’ll get that.
Constance Wu… great comment minus the “bitchy soapbox” comment. That is a very huge indicator of someone that, because she’s never had an abortion, doesn’t seem to really give a damn about the subject, regardless of the fact that you claim you’ve done extensive research on the topic. I’m more than willing to share with you my testimony seeing how that I’m post-abortive and I am more than willing to walk you through exactly what you’ve described of the horror of the abortion experience, my self denial, my cavalier attitude. But let me also walk you through the realization that i had to experience the emotional pain in order to heal. Let me walk you through my recovery process and the time it took to learn that my mistake didn’t define me. Let me walk you through what a post-abortive woman truly feels. Maybe if you LISTEN to my NARRATIVE STORY, you’ll realize it’s not a platform of which I’m shouting politics, but that abortion is about the taking of a life and how it ruins women.
You game?
Amen dirtdartwife!!
I’m game. As a post abortive mom. :)
blah blah blah, mistakes, blah blah blah, be a better person tomorrow, blah blah blah politics…
Ms. Wu…This isn’t about mistakes, personal growth, politics, emotions, or anything like that. As the mother of a now 10 year old daughter who I carried through a crisis pregnancy by her (abusive) father who wanted me to have her killed in an abortion…Let me assure you that this is about REAL. HUMAN. LIVES. Period.
Real and actual people are having their lives STOLEN from them, and no amount of our emotional readiness as mothers (for the record, I wasn’t really emotionally ready for my child at the time, either. Too flippin’ bad!) is really valid in light of that fact.
But yeah, if you think there aren’t women out there who literally celebrate their abortions with a trip to DisneyWorld, think again. I’ve spoken to them. And I give credit where credit is due, and don’t begrudge the women who are struggling and trying to cope with the reality and knowledge of what they’ve done their healing. But I just have no illusions that every single post-abortive mother *IS* struggling or even a little bit sad about what they’ve done.
I’ve talked to at least one who wasn’t sad. As I’ve mentioned before, she “just wasn’t going to complete the pregnancy.” She also doesn’t believe a human life was taken. She doesn’t believe the start of a human life can be pinpointed but believes you could be taking a human life in the 3rd trimester of pregnancy. She says, “It’s a matter of development and sentience.” Her first illegal abortion was in the start of the 4th month of pregnancy. She doesn’t believe sentience is enough at that stage to constitute a human being.
She has also said that once she admitted to herself that she was pregnant, she “never for one moment” considered carrying to term. She simply was going to stop carrying ASAP without going through the usual changes of pregnancy.
Her story is one reason I put so much emphasis on prevention. I really do believe that the only way to prevent some abortions is to prevent the pregnancy.
Motherhood isn’t always easy, but just because something is RIGHT doesn’t mean it’s EASY.
Once you get into the situation where you’re pregnant (whether planned or NOT) it’s not just about you, it’s about the in-uteral human being and the fact they exist and you can’t just abort them just because you get scared or the timing isn’t “perfect”. Their existence, their life matters just as much as yours and you owe it to them to provide a safe, healthy place to grow, develop and be born, because NATURE gives all human beings the basic right to life. And for those who are religious, GOD gives us that basic right. The in-uteral human being hasn’t done anything except exist and the last time I checked, merely existing wasn’t a crime, however, the abortion industry treats the existence of an in-uteral human being as a crime. Through no fault of their own they are conceived and exist within the womb. Why should they pay a price for something Nature ordained?
If you honestly can’t be a parent, give the child up for adoption, but don’t end that human being’s life/existence out of fear.
“And even show some of the tortured afthermath that abortion brings — remember the extended storyline in Grey’s Anatomy, when a self-centered woman’s abortion decision also resulted in the tragic demise of her marriage?”
That storyline was so sad, I felt bad for Owen. Basically, the whole deal was that she was going to do what she wanted, and his feelings about it meant nothing. I do give the show props (as pro-choice as the creator is), for actually showing the damage it did to them and their marriage. Though I’m pretty sure they were trying to portray Owen as unreasonable by being broken up by it, it didn’t come across that way. Even the pro-choice people I know who watch the show felt terrible for him and thought that Cristina was being selfish in the way that she dealt with the situation.
Ms. Wu, I don’t care that women have made mistakes. What I care about is someone killing another person to make her life easier.
You said you’re an actress. But are you a mother?
I applaud Constance for seeking out this blog and putting her position as actress in a comment.
One thing I don’t get is the idea that the mistake Kathy makes is casual, unprotected sex. She covers that mistake with a bigger mistake, having a little life destroyed forever in an abortion.
It’s possible for her to make two mistakes. But not all mistakes have equal consequences. Abortion isn’t just another life mistake.
Abortion is a huge and devastating mistake/sin/human rights violation. Forced abortion deprives an innocent human being of his or her life. For women who have consciences (some are genuinely ill that way and probably never will), sooner or later the reality of their mistake wounds them deeply.
I also agree with other commenters that its good long-term for abortion to be treated in pop culture, on tv shows, etc.
We need to face it as a country. We’re su
I also agree with other commenters that its good long-term for abortion to be treated in pop culture, on tv shows, etc.
We need to face it as a country. We’re super affluent and yet, on the human caring level, we make a lot of mistakes in how we care for one another.
The biggest mistake, in terms of lives lost, is abortion. 50 million of our sons, daughters, nieces, siblings, uncles, grandchildren, etc., are gone because of abortion. We need to find a way to love each other at all stages of development, and this means an end to abortion.
Just curious, do those of you who consider any and all abortions to be taking a human life also consider using the morning after pill to be taking a human life? When is there technically a human life at stake, pragmatically speaking? When the sperm connects with the egg at the moment of conception?
Jim, are you getting at when people would draw the line of at what point in development we should not recognize human life as such?
For those of you who think abortion is ok up until birth, what do you think of Kermit killing late-term, viable boy and girl fetuses and killing infants minutes after birth?
Jim?
Killing children isn’t merely a “mistake” someone makes like all other minor mistakes. It’s murder. Thank you very much for commenting here. But as an also post-abortive woman, I can say that abortion is NOT in the same category as ‘mistakes.’ That’s why we’re working so hard to end it.
And yes, Jim, life begins at conception. It’s in all the biology textbooks, embryology textbooks, etc. I’m against IVF, “morning after” pills, and ALL elective abortions. It’s sad that we can’t yet save the unfortunate ectopic pregnancies and the children therein, but someday we may be able to save even them. Any and all abortions murder a human child. I don’t care what political party you belong to, or what you stand for. I care that each and every conceived human child be given the opportunity for the same life, so that each child may grow up to be and believe. Sometimes accidents or disease ends a life, but those events are nobody’s fault. Abortion is the deliberate taking of a human life.
It’s very disturbing that people want to prove to us pesky pro-lifers that sometimes deciding to kill your child isn’t that upsetting. The cavalier attitude makes me want to outlaw abortion that much more, because people are becoming desensitized to murder.
@ ninek: Would you PROSECUTE abortion as murder?
Would you send girls and women who get abortions to prison for decades?
If a girl or woman has just been raped and is terrified she might be pregnant, would you deny any treatment to guard against pregnancy?
Denise, with all your interest in crime and prison, I’m suprised that you don’t see a distinction between prosecution and sentencing. You can be prosecuted for and convicted of committing or procuring a crime. It is at sentencing that a judge can take extenuating circumstances into account.
Further, as a person who has not read about assault, but been a victim of it, pregnancy didn’t even enter my mind after the assault. Getting safe, feeling safe: those were my priorities. I had my own bodily injuries to worry about and a pregnancy wasn’t even on my list of worries at the time. Finally, I can heal from trauma: children can’t heal from death.
@ Ninek:The fact is that abortion has not been prosecuted as murder despite people labeling it as such. It was always in its own category. Abortionists were sometimes imprisoned but for much briefer periods than murderers. Girls and women who got abortionists were rarely prosecuted at all.
Do you think that, for the first time in US history, abortion should be prosecuted as murder?
Would you prosecute the girl or woman or just the abortionist?
I have read about rape victims who called themselves “terrified” that they might be pregnant from the attack.
Would you deny such girls and women treatment to prevent pregnancy?
If a rape has already occurred, taking a pill for a quick chemical abortion isn’t less murder than a late term abortion. It might be, if like many pro-choicers you are only willing to bestow humanity on people who’ve reached some kind of arbitrary minimum size. As in, “you must be this tall to reside in this uterus”.
I’m working to make abortion illegal without exceptions. The solution to not wanting to be pregnant once you are is simple: wait. I don’t know many babies who waited more than a year to exit the womb. If a toddler is still in there, then perhaps we can play him some soothing music to coerce him to be born. If a teenager is still in there, well, that’s one for the record books, right?
Just curious, do you keep asking your criminal pen pals to keep repeating themselves over and over as if you didn’t understand the first 20 times I answered your question the same way? If you are as repetitive with criminals then that’s fair. If not, are you just tuning us out?? I’ve typed all of this to you in the past. Except my newer wittier toddler in the womb part. LOL!
“Kit – the only reason why it’s not horrific to you, is that you’ve never found yourself on the wrong end of a vacuum aspiration cannula.” – have you Chris? I haven’t, so I don’t know what percentage of those who undergo it find it ‘horrific’.
“Any portrayal of abortion will eventually have to show a woman who suffers from her decision to kill her child, or who dwells in denial of what she has done. Most post-abortive women do both.” – I’m not convinced that your claim is accurate Del. Do you have some information which would show me either way?
Thank you for your thoughtful post, Constance, and sharing some insight from the other side of the camera.
Ooh, sometimes when I read back my comments, the fine line between wit and snark has gotten blurry. Sorry! o_0
@ ninek: I was asking for clarification because your position appears quite extreme. The fact is that a female who has just been brutally assaulted — and perhaps beaten and tortured as well — is apt to be quite terrified of being pregnant. She is not going to want to be pregnant for the 9 months it usually takes for her to carry a baby to term and give birth. She is probably horrified at the idea of having her belly swell and swell with a continual reminder of the rape.
To deny treatment that might prevent this ordeal seems almost bizarre.
And most women that are given time to even see if they are pregnant from an assault/rape actually choose life. Why pretend that the only way they will feel is horrified? If given the chance, women know that the baby is also a part of them and they will choose to see their child as THEIR child, not “his”. The circumstances surrounding a child’s conception should not result in the death penalty for the child, especially considering most rapists don’t even get life in prison for their crime, let alone the death penalty. Also give a chance, women don’t want another assault to happen to their body and that’s what happens in an abortion. Their body has to be forced open and more harm done.
Give women real choices that can help her with a pregnancy after a rape. Condemning her to a life of regret because people that “just want to help” truly doesn’t help her. At least with a rape she knows who she can direct her anger towards. With an abortion, the regret and anger are towards herself, so why would anyone that cares/loves the woman want to do that to her?
Besides, a baby conceived in rape can be adopted out and no one would know that he/she was the result of rape. Their conception situation has no bearing on their dignity as a member of our human family.
Jim, fertilization is the beginning of a human organism. There is some debate among embryologists what the precise “moment” is (ie initial penetration of the ovum’s plasma membrane by the sperm cell, or the first cell division, or somewhere in between) but there is definitely a human life at stake by the end of fertilization. And the differences between the early embryo and the adult shouldn’t justify making it legal to kill the former (we can go through them if you like). Expert testimony and quotations from relevant texts can be found here.
There are two different drugs commonly sold as emergency contraceptives in the U.S: Plan B, and ella. Plan B has been around for longer, and is more common. It’s essentially a higher dose of the standard birth control pill. For the longest time, it was thought to work both by preventing fertilization and by making it more difficult for the embryo to implant in the uterus. This post-fertilization effect is problematic for pro-lifers, as you do have a human being prior to implantation. However, the most recent research has strongly pointed towards a mechanism of action that works strictly before fertilization. Thus I do not consider Plan B to be taking a human life. Ella is a whole different story, because it works as a progesterone antagonist (which is how the abortion pill RU-486 terminates established pregnancies). Animal studies have shown that it’s embryotoxic (unlike Plan B). So I would say that ella sometimes takes a human life and (as such) pro-lifers ought to take it seriously based on the current evidence.
More information can be found here:
http://lti-blog.blogspot.ca/2010/08/ella-anti-plan-b-serge.html
http://lti-blog.blogspot.ca/2010/08/scientific-wishful-thinking-ellas.html
Hope this helps.
Just curious, do you keep asking your criminal pen pals to keep repeating themselves over and over as if you didn’t understand the first 20 times I answered your question the same way? Are you just tuning us out?? I’ve typed all of this to you in the past.
Reality says:
May 15, 2013 at 7:25 pm
“Any portrayal of abortion will eventually have to show a woman who suffers from her decision to kill her child, or who dwells in denial of what she has done. Most post-abortive women do both.” – I’m not convinced that your claim is accurate Del. Do you have some information which would show me either way?
http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/
What I was asking for Del, was information which may support your assertion that post-abortive women either suffer from their decision to have an abortion or dwell in denial and that most post-abortive women do both.
The link you have provided does not contain that information.
I asked about the question of conception because it seems to me that many people on this thread have taken a stance that any and all forms of abortion, including Plan B, constitute murder. While I understand the arguments put forth claiming that a fetus is a human being from conception, I think it is important to acknowledge that they are philosophical arguments, not facts. While I respect people’s religious beliefs and admire people whose beliefs serve as their compass with regards to the issue of abortion (what a truly brave thing to do, to bring to term a child you are unprepared to raise, or to give birth to the child of a rapist) I cannot imagine forcing my beliefs on others, particularly when the stakes are so high. Just as many people believe that a fetus is not a human life from conception as those that believe it is. Saying you believe a fetus is a human being and that terminating a pregnancy is murder over and over again may reinforce your own feelings but they do little to prove your beliefs are factual and not philosophical in nature. Thankfully church and state are kept separate in this country, so my beliefs cannot be forced upon any of you.
Similarly, it is clear from this thread that many people believe a woman will ultimately choose to keep a child, even the child of a rapist, if given the right context and information– I think that focusing your efforts on providing a system of support for women that want to avoid abortion, rather than attempting to legislate their options and shame women who decide to terminate their pregnancies, would be a much more noble use of time and resources. The strongest argument you could make against abortion would be to provide alternatives.
Hi Jim. I actually learned in biology class that humans reproduce other humans, and that when conception occurs, a new life has been created from the fusing of the gametes of sperm and egg cells, with its own unique DNA.
So you can argue that this is philosophical, but it really isn’t. Philosophy comes into play when people either try to deny this fact or act as though it simply has no moral bearing on whether one can or cannot end that human life – which will continue to develop, from zygote stage all the way to fetus and then neonate, infant, toddler, preschooler, and so on – while it is still in the womb or even after it exits the womb.
I was reading Constance’s post and thoughtfully considering what she had to say and then got to the “bitchy soapbox” part and boom! She lost me.
Let me explain something to you Constance. Abortion is not about politics!!!!!!! It is a human rights issue. Abortion is no more about politics than slavery was. It isn’t a political statement to be against abortion. I am neither Democrat nor Republican. I have voted for pro-lifers in both parties. This is about an innocent and defenseless human being being brutally torn apart inside his or her mother’s womb. Abortion kills a child and wounds a mother. Has nothing to do with a political party!!!!
Good grief. It irks me when people say that abortion is political. It just shows how little they really grasp the situation.
Reality says:
May 15, 2013 at 10:23 pm
What I was asking for Del, was information which may support your assertion that post-abortive women either suffer from their decision to have an abortion or dwell in denial and that most post-abortive women do both.The link you have provided does not contain that information.
Dude — Yer a troll. If you spend any time listening to the women who have suffered after their abortions, you can see the patterns of post-traumatic stress: initial denial, delayed realization & pain, and all the rest.
If you look at any site that helps women to heal after abortion, or listen to any counsellor who treats this condition, you will find out for yourself.
If anyone suffers a burden of proof, it is incumbent upon you to bring evidence to this site about how this denial and pain is NOT common to post-abortive women.
Your lashing out in an attempt to denigrate me isn’t warranted Del.
I am aware that there are some women who genuinely regret having had an abortion. We’ve all made choices in life that we come to regret.
I am also aware that the group you provided the link to provides faith-based counselling and support services for some of those women, men as well.
You have asserted that ‘most’ post-abortive women both suffer from their decision and dwell in denial of it.
I have requested information which might demonstrate the veracity or otherwise of your assertion.
“If anyone suffers a burden of proof, it is incumbent upon you to bring evidence to this site about how this denial and pain is NOT common to post-abortive women” – hardly. You made the assertion. I responded to your assertion by saying that I’m not convinced that your claim is accurate and I asked if you have some information which would show me either way? Or are you trying to shift the burden of proof to me because the information either way doesn’t exist?
“I was reading Constance’s post and thoughtfully considering what she had to say and then got to the “bitchy soapbox” part and boom! She lost me.”
Yeah, I felt the same way.
Constance, I appreciate that you commented here. However, I think what Sydney said is right: abortion, to us, is a human rights issue. It is the most base of human cruelties – taking the lives of those who have no voice, and no power to fight back.
Too many choose to ignore those lives because they cannot speak for themselves and because they are weaker, and at the mercy of their mothers. We want women to know that they are not alone and that abortion does not help women… and that those lives, whether or not they are valued by society or even their own mothers, have the right to live.
Groups like Silent No More are in fact responding to the assertion that there’s little or no harm done to women through abortion.
If you care about women and there are millions of claims asserting that abortion hurts women, I’d say you listen to the claims. I’d say that the burden of proof lies with whoever cares about how women heal from abortion.
The pro choice side offers… what? in terms of post-abortive help? None? Denial?
Kel, your last paragraph above speaks my mind entirely. Agreed about biology class, too. In addition to people who do know better hiding behind the “it’s a philosophical issue” shield, I do think there are some people still living whose knowledge of human biology is as outdated as 70’s pro choice slogans. They haven’t had a reason to stay current with medical advances and the resulting advances in our knowledge of fetal development.
“If you care about women and there are millions of claims asserting that abortion hurts women, I’d say you listen to the claims.” – I’m sure there are ‘millions of claims’, I hear them here all the time, many from those who haven’t had abortions. But how many from actual individual women who are hurt?
“I’d say that the burden of proof lies with whoever cares about how women heal from abortion” – well since Del holds himself/herself out as the exemplar of this…
X I have met both types of women. Some can be put in the victim category like one of my friends. in SNM…She became pregnant at 13 and her mom was post abortive. She was given no choice by her family and her grandmother drove her for her abortion at the time. She suffered 2 miscarriages later in life and now has 4 kids. She is anti abortion all the way now. BUT I have also met the narcissistic types who knew better and went to the clinic shame free. Their favorite topic? Themselves! No guilt ever expressed phrases like “It wasn’t bad Id do it again if I had to. No victim there. Not a 28 year old nursing student.
Some women are indeed confused and in a crisis and don’t want an abortion but society also has cold blooded women just as there are cold blooded men. Some won’t feel guilt. Gloria Steinem has never spoken of anything except for how grand abortion was for her. I’ve given up hope on her and I have moved her into the cold blooded abortion pimp category.
@ Ninek: I talk about a variety of things with inmates. You can google online to learn more about my correspondence.
In view of what the poster says about Plan B, I assume you believe this should be given to rape victims since it prevents a pregnancy?
Reality, I have offered Constance Wu to hear my testimony. I am part of the Silent No More Awareness program. You come off as just COMPLETELY in denial that any people like me exist. What the hell do you want from us? What standard or level of competence from us will it take for you to actually open that organ between your ears to listen to what we’re all saying? You truly don’t seem to give a fart about what we’ve been through because you are so stuck on “Nope, not true. Planned Parenthood says Post Abortion Stress Disorder isn’t true therefore screw those millions of women, and men, that have come forward to speak the truth. Nope.. .not happening.” I am willing to share my story but my story has NO impact whatsoever to a person that has a closed mind and closed heart. You are no better than Hanoi Jane by telling those soldiers “Nope, you’re being treated with humane conditions. What you’re telling me is not true and I choose to believe your captors instead.”
You accuse me (as a post abortive woman and mother) that I just simply regret a bad decision. You wanna know something? Me getting drunk to the point that I can’t remember the events of a night was a bad decision. Me choosing to ignore my studies for an exam, then failing the exam, was a bad decision. Guess what.. I got over those. I learned my lesson and moved on. I stopped drinking so heavily. I studied for my exams. My abortions are two events I’ll NEVER fully get over. They will go to my grave with me. I can look back on most of my “bad decisions” and actually laugh at my own stupidity, idiocy, or childish foolishness. I can’t do that to my abortion experiences. I can only take what I can to learn from them, realize God forgave me and now uses me to teach against abortion and to empower women to come forward with their stories, empower young girls to not choose abortion and to help those that are still hurting from their abortion to seek help. I will NEVER laugh at my abortion experiences because murdering two innocent children is NOTHING to laugh at.
So for you to stand there, on your high horse, and intellectually and emotionally deny that PASD is real, and therefore millions of our stories are just bunk, takes an ENORMOUS amount of emotional and intellectual immaturity. I feel sorry for people that think like this.
The short answer for Reality is this: We trust women. We trust women when they open up about their experiences after abortion. We do not deny their painful experiences.
And we are the therapists and healing ministries and the loving spouses, parents and friends of post-abortive women. We do not abandon them. All of us here have seen the devastation of abortion in others lives, and many of us are post-abortive ourselves.
I suppose some psychological researchers could study us and write a paper and tell us what we already know, just as we are telling you what we already know. Such “evidence” would not change the facts — the reality remains the same. Abortion hurts women.
It all comes down to this: How do we decrease unwelcome pregnancies?
Del says:
I’m going to suggest that this [dramatization of abortion] a good thing.
Constance Wu says:
As the actress who played Kathy, the character who has an abortion, I can assure that Kit Williamson had a serious talk with me about it and why he made the decision to have this storyline.
I want to thank Ms. Wu for visiting and commenting. I still insist that this sort dramatization is a good thing.
Even for those who are sympathetic to abortion and have no consideration for the child — any honest effort to portray abortion will have to include the agony of the woman before she makes her “decision,” and some indication of the inner and exterior devastation that she encounters after the abortion. If these are neglected, the story line will feel false and fail to engage the viewers.
The story might endure a smarmy Hollywood ending, in which the woman finds easy healing in some crush on a new man. People still love happy endings. But for the people who will watch such dramas, the abortion itself is no longer seen as an “easy solution.” We know too many women who have done that.
DeniseNoe says:
May 16, 2013 at 9:09 am
It all comes down to this: How do we decrease unwelcome pregnancies?
I say that we must stop relying on contraception. The more we push contraception at young women, the more teen pregnancies occur.
I say that the answer is to educate young people on the dangers and risks of premature sexual activity. It worked for tobacco and cigarettes.
And I say that we should tie the concepts of personal dignity and chastity to all the school programs that enhance “self-esteem.” Giving away your sexual dignity before you are ready for marriage and children is a really cheap way to demean yourself. You are better than that. And boys: Pressuring your girlfriend for sex is just another form of bullying, and will not be tolerated by this school’s teachers and administration.
Heather,
There is nobody not even Gloria Steinem, Gosnell or Castro that is beyond the saving grace of Christ.
All post abortive women were unrepentant, before they were repentant!!
Standing with you Del and Dirtdartwife!!
SILENT NO MORE!!
Abortion hurt me and ended the life of my first child.
You trust women, but not enough to make decisions about their pregnancies.
“And boys: Pressuring your girlfriend for sex is just another form of bullying, and will not be tolerated by this school’s teachers and administration.”
If people REALLY wanted to reduce underage pregnancies and premarital sex, we’d stop pretending it’s only the boys who have sex drives or initiating. Just saying.
“You trust women, but not enough to make decisions about their pregnancies.”
I trust no people, regardless of gender, to make a choice to hurt children.
I understand Carla but how many women have been told how wonderful and liberating abortion is? She is a pimp. Its not fair to say that some women aren’t evil. Jodi Arias is evil
Christ can still save the cold blooded murderer and post abortive women can be saved.
@ Heather: People seeking to outlaw abortion inevitably call it “murder.” When it was illegal in the US, it was not prosecuted as murder. Generally, speaking the girl or woman seeking an abortion wasn’t prosecuted at all. If she was prosecuted, she would not serve more than a very brief time in jail. Abortionists were prosecuted but they were not prosecuted for murder. They were prosecuted for abortion and the sentence wasn’t nearly as harsh as for murder.
The fact is that, when abortion is again criminalized, it will not be prosecuted as murder. Girls and women who have abortions won’t spend decades of their lives behind bars. Abortionists may be imprisoned but for relatively brief periods.
How can it be murder if it isn’t prosecuted as murder?
While I understand the arguments put forth claiming that a fetus is a human being from conception, I think it is important to acknowledge that they are philosophical arguments, not facts. While I respect people’s religious beliefs and admire people whose beliefs serve as their compass with regards to the issue of abortion (what a truly brave thing to do, to bring to term a child you are unprepared to raise, or to give birth to the child of a rapist) I cannot imagine forcing my beliefs on others, particularly when the stakes are so high.
Don’t you have to rely on religion and/or philosophy in order to say that a fetus isn’t a person? Or that pro-life advocates should not be able to use the resources of their government to protect what they consider defenceless human beings? Or that killing infants is equivalent to murder when many philosophers (Michael Tooley, Peter Singer, Jeff McMahan, Alberto Giubilini and Francesca Minerva) would deny this? The high stakes also include one million human lives every year, if pro-life advocates are correct about the status of the unborn. Somehow, I’m not convinced that legalized abortion ought to win by default because of philosophical disagreement.
Just as many people believe that a fetus is not a human life from conception as those that believe it is.
The same was once true about the status of slaves, but that didn’t make it wrong to abolish the practice. If it’s just a numbers game, what proportion of the population would you say we have to convince in order to justify making abortion illegal? Would this number be different if we were dealing with spousal abuse?
Saying you believe a fetus is a human being and that terminating a pregnancy is murder over and over again may reinforce your own feelings but they do little to prove your beliefs are factual and not philosophical in nature. Thankfully church and state are kept separate in this country, so my beliefs cannot be forced upon any of you.
I would agree that repeating the same thing over and over again doesn’t prove its truth. However, I would say that I believe most people could be persuaded to accept the pro-life position if they were given the facts and the best philosophical arguments and that it can be shown to be the most reasonable.
Similarly, it is clear from this thread that many people believe a woman will ultimately choose to keep a child, even the child of a rapist, if given the right context and information– I think that focusing your efforts on providing a system of support for women that want to avoid abortion, rather than attempting to legislate their options and shame women who decide to terminate their pregnancies, would be a much more noble use of time and resources. The strongest argument you could make against abortion would be to provide alternatives.
There already are over 2700 pregnancy resource centres across North America run by pro-life advocates, which are designed to provide realistic alternatives to abortion and a support system for any woman that wants to keep her child or place for adoption. This is very important work, and it vastly eclipses political activity in terms of time and resources spent. However, it still isn’t enough. Even if we could decimate the abortion rate this way, we would still be left with a system where the unborn live only at the discretion of those with more power. And the state would sanction any of these discretionary killings. Pro-lifers would still consider this a grossly unjust system, even if abortion happened only once every few years.
Denise, I am not even remotely interested in actually reading your fan mail to criminals. I asked YOU to tell ME if you constantly make them repeat themselves. Why are YOU having trouble answering this question?
@ ninek: I can’t answer that. You’d have to ask them.
I asked for clarification because prosecuting girls and women who abort is unprecedented and withholding treatment for a rape victim who is terrified she might get pregnant as a result of the assault sounds so very bizarre. I just can’t imagine telling a recently traumatized raped woman, “There are ways to prevent pregnancy from rape but since there might be a remote chance that an egg the rapist has already fertilized might not implant in your uterine wall, we will not give you any treatment. I’m sure that if you get pregnant by your rapist, you will accept the pregnancy. At any rate, you’ve got no choice until you carry for 9 months and give birth. Then you always have the choice to place the baby for adoption. Have a nice day.”
“You come off as just COMPLETELY in denial that any people like me exist” - sure, that would be why I said “I am aware that there are some women who genuinely regret having had an abortion. We’ve all made choices in life that we come to regret…..I am also aware that the group you provided the link to provides faith-based counselling and support services for some of those women, men as well.” which means that “So for you to stand there, on your high horse, and intellectually and emotionally deny that PASD is real” simply isn’t correct.
“We trust women. We trust women when they open up about their experiences after abortion. We do not deny their painful experiences.” – I also trust women. I think I trust them more than you do. And I do not deny their painful experiences.
“And we are the therapists and healing ministries and the loving spouses, parents and friends of post-abortive women. We do not abandon them. All of us here have seen the devastation of abortion in others lives, and many of us are post-abortive ourselves.” – yes, I know that.
“I suppose some psychological researchers could study us and write a paper and tell us what we already know (know?), just as we are telling you what we already know (again?). Such “evidence” would not change the facts — the reality remains the same. Abortion hurts women.” – yes, abortion hurts some women. But since it appears no one has undertaken an empirical study there exists no evidence to support your earlier assertion. If there were then I doubt that ‘most’ would be anywhere close to accurate.
egg the rapist has already fertilized
is called a zygote, and in fact the new human being’s original first cell has already undergone mitosis several times and is alive by every scientific definition of the word alive.
Denise, you think I don’t like you personally. I always denied it. Today, you made it true. Congratulations, abortion advocate and pro-choice murderer fan. When you are old and someone wants to euthanize you because you are of no use or value to them, I will defend your life, which is more than you would ever deign to do for me.
Denise, you’ve been nailing Ninek on this repeatedly. She has answered repeatedly. I’m sorry to say it seems as if you’re bullying her. And, once again, driving a point that is not relevant to the post.
If plan B prevents conception, ok. If it prevents implantation, not ok. The research is not clear at this point. Prolife people, with a broad base of knowledge, are not in agreement.
Please, review your badgering of Ninek. Your approach makes your points weaker. And you do have some good points. I especially agree with bringing back chaperoned dating.
“Look above and you will see a post from someone who says Plan B PREVENTS the conception. Would you allow Plan B to a raped girl or woman? ”
Denise I think it’s heartless to deny a rape victim Plan B because of the tiny maybe possible chance that it might prevent an zygote from implanting (and the evidence suggests this rarely if ever happens). Now can you drop it? You already know ninek’s answer, you’re going to get the same one from all the Catholics and most of the other Christians.
I understand that life begins at conception in one sense of the word– where we run into philosophical rather than scientific, factual territory is discussing wether that cellular “life” constitutes a human being. You take it as a given that it does– I do not. If there is no consciousness or mental activity of any kind, how can you say it is a living person? How can you call it a child that is being murdered? What you’re talking about is a soul– an abstract idea that you have to rely on your own religious and philosophical beliefs to defend.
OK Reality – how about this. It is asserted that one out of three American women between the ages of 15 and 45 will have had one or more abortions during her lifetime. True or False.
If this is True, then why do so few women talk about their personal experience?
We talk about our colonoscopies, we talk about our mammograms, we talk about all sorts of things – but few women talk about their personal abortion experiences. The most recent example I heard was Melissa Ohden’s birth parents. Melissa survived an abortion attempt and was adopted. Her adoptive parents did not tell her about the abortion. Why not?
Perhaps it was because this was an attempt on her life by her own mother. Her older sister told her when Melissa was 14 years old. When she became an adult, she tried to find her birth parents via letter. Her father never responded; her maternal grandfather did respond.
It turns out that the maternal grandmother coerced Melissa’s mother into the abortion. Melissa’s mother and father broke up after the abortion (happens about 90% of the time, according to studies). Melissa’s mother and grandmother are not on speaking terms. Why not?
Later, Melissa’s half-siblings on both sides of the family contacted her. The father’s children found her letter in his papers after he died. He had never told them about the abortion. Her mother had never told her other children about the abortion either. So why not?
I do not know whether “most” women regret their abortions or how deeply. I do know that a lot of women involved in the pro-life movement have had abortion experiences that had a profound negative effect on them, which motivated them to become involved in the pro-life movement. I know, because I am one of them and we are going to fight this scourge until our last breath and then others will rise up to continue the battle.
“then why do so few women talk about their personal experience?” – because it’s not significant for most women.
“We talk about our colonoscopies, we talk about our mammograms” – and there aren’t activists and politicians trying to remove their rights to colonoscopies and mammograms. There aren’t people walking the streets with huge placards with photos of colonoscopies or mammograms or standing outside medical centers praying that they cease their work.
I’m not a woman but I sure as heck don’t go around talking about my colonoscopies!
Well Jim, brainwaves start at 40 days. Do you think it is a human life then? If someone is put under anesthesia and they therefore have no consciousness are they therefore not human beings in your book?
All members of the human family are human beings. We don’t have to jump through arbitrary hoops that you Jim or Hitler or NARAL sets up. Every single human being on this planet started as a one celled organism. They weren’t a different species than they are now. They were always human. The one celled stage is simply the FIRST of MANY stages of development a single human being will go through during his or her life.
colonoscopies and mammograms don’t take a life either. Abortion kills a person and any woman that sees the pregnancy test as positive doesn’t think “Oh goodie…I havea rock in my womb.” She KNOWS that the positive indicator on that stick equals baby. Only through mental gymnastics and believing the lies of Planned Parenthood can she twist her thinking, nullify her preternatural instict to protect her young, can a woman agree to an abortion.
Reality, why do you ignore the Silent No More testimonies? Why do you ignore all the women that have founf the courage to come forward to speak out against their abortion? Why are you so scared of the truth of which we speak? Are you a post-abortive male that is still trying to justify the abortion experience you’ve had? (Not being snarky, I have a genuiune concern)
“Only through mental gymnastics and believing the lies of Planned Parenthood can she twist her thinking, nullify her preternatural instict to protect her young, can a woman agree to an abortion.” – remind me, how long has PP been in existence for? And how long have women been desperately seeking ways of terminating unwanted pregnancies for?
“why do you ignore the Silent No More testimonies? Why do you ignore all the women that have founf the courage to come forward to speak out against their abortion?” – and why do you keep making this false accusation? Repeating it doesn’t make it any less untrue.
“Why are you so scared of the truth of which we speak” – this too. I haven’t denied your truth so why claim I’m scared of it.
I keep saying it – some women are hurt by having chosen to have an abortion. It just isn’t anywhere within the realms some here attempt to claim.
Reality- you claim “and why do you keep making this false accusation? Repeating it doesn’t make it any less untrue.” to refute my claim of all the testimonies from the Silent No More groups. I believe it’s you that keep making a false accusation and repeating it till you believe your falsehood.
There are rapists and killers in jail that don’t see anything wrong with their actions. Gosnell, from what I’ve read, doesn’t see anything wrong with what he’s done either. I don’t deny that some people don’t regret their abortion experience. They have their reasons for it too but the vast majority of the people I’ve known that initially didn’t regret it, have come to learn the truth of their actions (that it took another life) and they come to regret it.
“I keep saying it – some women are hurt by having chosen to have an abortion. It just isn’t anywhere within the realms some here attempt to claim.” This boggles my mind to think that anyone would want to tell a woman that her experience “isn’t that bad” according to your standards. So I will ask again, since you ignored it last time… are you post abortive? Only a person that has experienced an abortion, and doesn’t regret it, would dare to make such a horribly STUPID comment like the one you’ve made.
The history of PP is all over the interwebs. You can google that to your delight but I don’t believe you’d have the intellectual fortitude to understand the true intent behind PP.
I wish you much blessing on this topic with Reality.
I have been down this road with him/her once or twice myself.
And I believe too that Reality has a vested interest in keeping abortion legal and pretending to “trust women.”
Abortionist? Escort? On the board of PP? Mill worker? Post abortive?
To know it is a completely innocent and fully formed human being that is brutally killed in an abortion and to continue to TRUMPET the necessity of it takes cognitive dissonance.
Love you dirtdartwife!!! :)
This boggles my mind to think that anyone would want to tell a woman that her experience “isn’t that bad” according to your standards.
But it COULD be so much worse!!! Women could be-*GASP*-punished with parasites!!!! And that is the WORST. THING.EVAR! 9_9
I understand that life begins at conception in one sense of the word– where we run into philosophical rather than scientific, factual territory is discussing wether that cellular “life” constitutes a human being. You take it as a given that it does– I do not. If there is no consciousness or mental activity of any kind, how can you say it is a living person? How can you call it a child that is being murdered? What you’re talking about is a soul– an abstract idea that you have to rely on your own religious and philosophical beliefs to defend.
I’m glad we agree that biologically, a human life begins at conception. However, it still seems that using consciousness to distinguish a person from something that isn’t a person relies on religious or philosophical beliefs to defend. Science, after all, doesn’t tell us how we should treat each other. It’s also not possible to empirically observe consciousness in anything other than oneself. I know for sure that I’m conscious, but I can’t conclusively determine that anyone else is. I can observe someone behave the same way that a conscious person would, or examine their brain activity (and compare it to that of a conscious person). But, for all I know, they still could just be a philosophical zombie.
I don’t think it’s necessary to rely on the concept of a soul to argue that abortion kills a person. It seems most reasonable that being a certain type of entity, with a rational nature, is sufficient to be a person. All humans have a rational nature even if they’re not currently functioning as a person (for example if they’re temporarily in a deep coma). So a human that’s never had a conscious experience is still a person, the same way a newborn tiger that’s never eaten meat is still a carnivore. This would explain why all humans, including the immature and the incapacitated, should have equal basic rights.
Hey Navi, thanks for your thoughtful reply. You’re still talking about a fully formed human being, rather than a cluster of cells. Likening an early term fetus to a fully formed person in a coma is only hitting home my point– we aren’t talking about a fully formed person. That said, I understand why, philosophically, you do not distinguish between the two.
In our legal system, the burden of proof is on the prosecution. The people on this thread have made an accusation– they claim that abortion is murder. That accusation is unproven. I understand that many people -believe- that abortion is murder. It is their constitutional right to believe whatever they want and I will always defend their right to express their views. But if they seek to have their views written into law they need to find some way of proving their claims past a philosophical argument.
Also, to clarify: I do not believe that a human life begins at conception. I believe that a biological process, which ultimately RESULTS in a human life, begins at conception. There is “life” aka activity on the cellular level starting at conception, but that does not, to me or the majority of scientists in this country, constitute a human being.
What’s going on Dirtdartwife? Youve taken 257 words to make the same false accusations and erroneous statements that you did previously.
“you claim “and why do you keep making this false accusation? Repeating it doesn’t make it any less untrue.” to refute my claim of all the testimonies from the Silent No More groups.” – that is fundamentally untrue.
How on earth can “I am aware that there are some women who genuinely regret having had an abortion. …..I am also aware that the group you provided the link to provides faith-based counselling and support services for some of those women, men as well.” possibly be misconstrued as refuting your claim of all the testimonies from the Silent No More groups? Please, do tell.
“I don’t deny that some people don’t regret their abortion experience.” – thank you for acknowledging that.
“the vast majority of the people I’ve known that initially didn’t regret it, have come to learn the truth of their actions (that it took another life) and they come to regret it.” – no doubt. But what percentage of post-abortive women might that be? And ‘who’ are they (I’m not talking names)?
[“I keep saying it – some women are hurt by having chosen to have an abortion. It just isn’t anywhere within the realms some here attempt to claim.” This boggles my mind to think that anyone would want to tell a woman that her experience “isn’t that bad” according to your standards] – you appear to have misunderstood. ‘realms’ means community or territory – not within an individual. Would it be clearer for you if I said ‘it just isn’t anywhere near the number or percentage of post-abortive women some here attempt to claim’?
“are you post abortive? ” – I’m male.
“The history of PP is all over the interwebs.” – not exactly. A false history maybe. What I find ‘all over the interwebs’ is a plethora of lies, misrepresentations and propaganda from anti-choice groups and sites.
“You can google that to your delight but I don’t believe you’d have the intellectual fortitude to understand the true intent behind PP.” – but I do. PP’s intent is to provide a range of health services to women, and men, and support women in their reproductive choices.
The biological process that results in a human life HAS created such a life by about the time the woman or girl misses her menstrual period — the 6th week of pregnancy.
Thanks for clarifying, and I apologize if I misrepresented your arguments. With the individual in a coma, my purpose was to show how you can “say it is a living person [i]f there is no consciousness or mental activity of any kind” (answering your question). I must take exception when you refer to the early embryo as a “cluster of cells” and (in your next post) bring up activity at the cellular level. As our friend Reality is always quick to point out, life in this sense began a long, long time ago. The haploid ovum and sperm are living cells, as were the diploid cells in the ovaries and testes that gave rise to them through meiosis. After you die, your body will still be composed of many living cells until it decomposes. And yet, something critical happens at fertilization that distinguishes the resulting embryo from a cluster of cells: its cells work together as parts of a whole (distinct from either the mother or father), and it directs its own development from within. Thus the early embryo is a human organism. Conversely, at death, the cells no longer function as parts of an integrated whole. A corpse really is just a clump of cells. I think Human Embryology and Teratology by O’Rahilly and Müller does a good job of summarizing these points:
I’m curious how you conclude that the majority of scientists do not think this constitutes a human being.
In criminal law, the burden of proof is generally on the prosecutor (with few exceptions). However, I think there is a significant difference between prosecuting someone for a specific crime that they may have committed and outlawing a certain action. For example, the burden of proof is on the contractor if he wants to demolish a building (he must first determine that nobody is inside). Granted, there are limitations to this principle (thus both sides of the abortion debate should carry some burden of proof). And I’m not sure what kind of evidence you’re looking for that would be considered sufficient reason to accept the case against legalized abortion (beyond a philosophical argument).
My god. You people are so insane. News flash, not all women regret abortion and many are happy about it. Just cause Carla and X can’t grasp this concept doesn’t make it false
@ Jake: Carla can’t stand me but I don’t believe she thinks NO women regret their abortions. SHE regrets her abortion and knows that MANY other women do as well. An abortion can be extremely traumatic and life-scarring. Of course, having a baby you can’t adequately care for or that you place for adoption is also traumatic.
For their psychological health, girls and women shouldn’t be aborting, placing for adoption, or having babies they aren’t prepared to care for. Either a foolproof and safe contraceptive must be developed or there has to be a drastic reduction in the type of sexual activity that leads to pregnancy.
True female emancipation isn’t legal abortion. It is radically decreasing the demand for abortion — not by replacing it with having babies that are placed for adoption or having babies we can’t adequately care for but by ensuring that the women who get pregnant are those who are willing to have and raise babies.
Ok, so a gay man has no idea of the emotional balance of his female friends: what’s new?
I have had over sixteen different friends who have had an abortion.
No it’s not always a hard decision, but it always a hard reality. ALL of the time it has been either extremely physically painful, and/or extremely emotionally painful. I would say this guy is one of those ‘happy gays’ who hangs up the phone as soon as something ‘negative’ comes over the wires.
I know people who say things like what he has stated, and they really don’t listen. They have friends, but they don’t share the reality of their problems. It’s mostly work relationships that define their relationships a whole. i would say this is one of those liberal workaholics that is generally out of touch with reality. Sure, a nice guy, but he doesn’t have a clue, especially, as far as women are concerned. Oh, what’s that? Concerned about your health, here’s a condom. Um.. yeah. Our essence, as women, is defined by much more than our reproductive organs, and is ultiimately tied into how we view and interact with LIFE as a whole.
Yes, I am anti-CHOICE> women are not stupid. far from it. we know what that (the ‘choice’) means.
My god. You people are so insane. News flash, not all women regret abortion and many are happy about it. Just cause Carla and X can’t grasp this concept doesn’t make it false
Excuse me, but when have I ever expressed opposition to such a statement? As a matter of fact, it puts Carla and I at odds quite often.
CityofAngels, sounds like you don’t have a lot of gay friends. Or maybe you think you do? Just because people keep you at arms length emotionally because of your volatility and bigotry doesn’t mean that’s how other people’s friendships function. Best of luck dealing with all those stupid “happy gays” who don’t want to stay on the phone with you as you spew your negativity. THIS “happy gay” is always there to listen to his friends’ problems and provide a shoulder to cry on. But you’re right, I probably wouldn’t be able to sit there and listen to someone like you.
PS substitute “happy gay” for “happy black” and maybe you’ll be able to understand why your language is offensive.
Who am I kidding, there’s no way you’re gonna get it. You’re just going to accuse me of being a kneejerk PC liberal picking at semantics, right? Have I gazed into the future?