Divorced gay couple raising twins separately
We can’t pretend like this doesn’t exist for them — that’s completely selfish. It is our responsibility to do the right thing for our children…
We’ve exchanged photos. The mudslinging has ended. And I hope that one day, Ryan and I will be friends.
I think we all envision ourselves married and in a relationship. But I’m an older dad and there is something very enlightening about being a single father…I’ll make mistakes, but my job for the rest of her life is to protect her and support her. We’re a team.
~ Celebrity event planner David Tutera discussing what life may be like as a single dad raising a twin separately after divorcing “husband” Ryan Jurica (pictured), People, September 13
Sep.16, 2013 6:00 am |
GLBT |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Separating the twins is NOT the answer! That decision is selfish.
I am against gay couples raising children but, given the circumstances, they should consider joint custody and live near each other so that later on the children can stay with one parent and then go to the other parent. It’s important that they attend the same school and be allowed to make and keep the same friends over the course of their childhood.
Wait, they separated the twins?? That seems like the greatest trauma of the whole situation to me. Divorce doesn’t mean you just go your separate ways, if there are kids involved. You are part of a team that you can’t ever quit. My gentleman and I will basically never be able to live outside of a specific 30-minute radius (a very pricey 30-minute radius, I might add, where we will probably never be able to afford a “real” home – doesn’t matter). Because that’s where his kids live 60% of the time. So that’s where we live. It’s not even a question.
This seems incredibly cruel, almost too cruel to be real.
The twins are fraternal and have different bio dads. Sick, right? This is what happens when we mess with God’s design. God meant for ONE man and ONE woman to marry and be married till DEATH. He meant for children to the fruit of the sexual union. Now we have men with men, women with women and IVF and all other unethical procedures creating children as if they were commodities to be divvied up amongst everyone, bought and sold and aborted if imperfect.
This is going to mess with those children’s heads. It is just wrong on so many levels.
“It was a very confusing time,” Tutera, 47, tells PEOPLE exclusively, adding that he and Jurica never discussed keeping the twins together. “The divorce happened so quickly after the [embryo] transfer was successful that there wasn’t time to mourn the loss of raising a second child — I was mourning the loss of my relationship.”
They “never discussed keeping the twins together”?? Never? Not once?
Basically, it sounds as if they both wanted kids and decided that, regardless of the emotional well-being of those children, they were each going to get what they wanted. It’s just a sad situation all around.
Guess they took Solomon literally.
I wonder what they would have done if they had triplets. Would they each take one then flip a coin for the other?
I agree with one thing they said.
“that’s completely selfish”
My heart is breaking! What other divorced couple does this??
It makes me sick how flippantly people deal with children these days. Have we forgotten that these are people we’re playing with? That these people are being influenced by us – emotionally, physically, psychologically, spiritually – even before they are born?? As a culture, we’ve failed our kids. We see them as statistics and commodities, at best affectionate pets. They’re people!
Sigh. Rant over. I’m going to hug my son.
Who are these people? I mean I really don’t know who they are. I am so glad I don’t read People magazine.
When are people going to learn to STOP opening Pandora’s box? Problems lead to more problems. Sounds like the old joke: “God was passing out brains. Thought that he said trains and I said that I would catch the next one.”
This whole situation is very sad and was not a normal or necessary thing to do. Very sad for the resulting children. Very glad those children were not aborted.
I have no comment.
“I have no comment.”
Paradoxically, this is a comment.
“…There is something very enlightening about being a single father…we’re a team.”
Dude – being a father does not mean you’re a team leader or member of a team. That is a completely wrong analogy that sooner or later you’ll realize sounds very foolish. What you’re trying to avoid stating is “family”. A life-sacrificing covenantal commitment is necessary, and if you’re thinking “team” you’re not yet a family. Breaking the siblings up is worse than you understand. You might want to explore your own past – and I suggest, seek Christ.
I would never have separated the kids in the divorce. Very selfish people.
Carla, I’ve read about multiple different divorced couples separating siblings because they care more about the adult’s wants more than the children’s needs. It’s gross no matter who does it.
I must be naive on that.
I assumed you would try as hard as you could to KEEP SIBLINGS TOGETHER!
:(
Oh dear God! Poor children!
David Tutera is the father of the one child and the other guy is the father of the second child. That is how they split them up. If they had a 3rd I’m sure that whoever was the bio dad would get that one too. Not sure if they share the same mother though. So unbelievably sad. These kids will be denied a mother, be denied their sibling…just so sad.
My husband has a relative who just married a divorced mother of three. He met her on the internet and she moved herself and her children across country to marry him. After several months, the kids were so homesick for their dad and the life they had on the other side of the country so they all moved back to their original town (at least the children were allowed to stay together). The mother remained with her new husband who was unwilling to move.
I told my husband his relative and his new wife are selfish and I predict a short marriage. I don’t believe that a parent who is willing to uproot her kids from the only home they know to marry a guy across the country, will make a very good wife. The new husband has no children but wouldn’t move so I don’t believe he will make a very good husband, either. Red flags all over the place.
As in the story above. the children are the pawns of the adults. So heartbreaking.
“I don’t believe that a parent who is willing to uproot her kids from the only home they know to marry a guy across the country, will make a very good wife. The new husband has no children but wouldn’t move so I don’t believe he will make a very good husband, either. Red flags all over the place.”
It’s been 3 years with my better half. Thanks for the input, but we both think we’re very good partners, and the kids are really happy too.
I understand JDC! This was my intent and you saw through me. LOL.
The children I am talking about had a close relationship with their non-abusive father, X, and did not want to move away from friends, sports, school and other family members. The newlyweds think they are perfect partners, too, but I fear that mom might end up missing her little ones down the line. I am happy that the children at least remained together and have each other.
I certainly wasn’t talking about your situation and don’t know enough about it to make a comment one way or the other. You sound a tad defensive.
Congrats on the 3 years with your partner.
“there wasn’t time to mourn the loss of raising a second child — I was mourning the loss of my relationship.”
Well that says it all. Essentially, “I didn’t have time to care about my kids because I was too hung up on what I had lost.” Seems like this attitude occurs all too frequently in cases of divorce. It doesn’t matter that much what the kids experience-after all, kids are resilient, right? What matters more is that I get the most that I can for myself out of all of this.
It isn’t easy to look past what you want, when you’ve lived in a world that constantly reiterates “Just do it. If you can get away with it, and it makes you happy, why not?” Still, it is what we are called to do. Always.
Tyler,
David Tutera is a very popular wedding planner (I guess he plans other events, but he has a wedding show on I think WE TV?) and he does wedding planning. He also has a line of wedding dresses and jewelry. I like some of his ideas for receptions. He has very specific idea of wedding etiquette (usually on target).
He and the other guy were in a relationship for a while, but apparently they’re splitting (I don’t know how long they were together) and they got a surrogate mother.
Too bad that when grown ups mess up their children’s stability, it’s the children that get shuffled around to fit the grown ups’ convenience. Congrats on not being any better that the rest of us.
It’s all about me, me, me, and what makes me happy. Actually, adults it’s NOT about you. Interesting article “15 Ways to Predict Divorce”
http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-05-19/15-ways-to-predict-divorce/p/
Article by our own Jill Stanek “Matters of Life and Death: Sex and consequences
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?pageId=209125
Jill asks ”Where are the health warnings”? http://www.fda.gov/biologicsbloodvaccines/bloodproducts/questionsaboutblood/ucm108186.htm
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/10/study-suggests-risk-from-same-sex-parenting/
http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/08/6065
No matter how much money you have, how many reproductive games of IVG, rent-a-womb, buy-a-sperm, borrow-a-sperm, buy-an-egg, borrow-an-egg, Russian Roulette let’s make a baby, cut off my breast that will make me a man but I’ll keep female organs to make babies, no amount of sex toys, hormones you ingest or inject or other manipulations every baby is the product of a man and a woman no man can ever be a mother, no woman can ever be a father. Every child has a mother and a father, I don’t care what some “radical social engineer” puts on the child’s birth certificate. The safest, healthiest, place for children is in a stable home with his or her biological married parents (with rare exceptions-no of course I am not talking about abusive parents).
A whole level of weird sadness that has not been mentioned: Why is PEOPLE Magazine celebrating this tragedy?
I didn’t read this closely at first, and now that I see what it’s about…
They separated the twins???
Fraternal Twins – different bio dads??
I can’t even. The degree of selfishness. If you wrote a script for two people behaving as selfishly as possible, this is it playing out in real life. I have seen this guy’s shows, but honest to God, I will never be able to watch him again knowing that this is the kind of person he is. They are literally treating these poor children like property to be divvied up. Disgusting.
Sorry 2 of my links to articles don’t work
In the first article “15 Ways to Predict Divorce has very eye-opening research but #15 states
“If you’re in a male same -sex marriage, it is 50% more likely to end in divorce than a heterosexual marriage. If you are in a female same-sex marriage, this figure soars to 167%.” A research team led by Stockholm University demography professor Gunnar Anderson based their calculations on legal partnerships in Norway and Sweden, where 5 out of every 1,000 new couples are same-sex. (Source: Gunnar Andersson “Divorce-Risk Patterns in Same-Sex Marriages in Norway and Sweden” Institute for Marriage and Public Policy, 2004) So if you think that homosexual activists really want monogamous, life-long committed marriage and that they mean the same thing when they say marriage, you are sorely mistaken and deceived. The lesbian divorced rate at 167% seems impossible but according to this demographer it is the way his calculations come out because woman to woman “marriages” are pretty much impossible even in a country that embraces absolutely any type of sex you want and has done it for years. Narcissistic self-love, leading to sexual behaviors that are intentionally sterile relationships, then intentionally refusing children either a father or a mother and even refusing to allow these children to know or acknowledge one of their biological parents.
An article by Robert Oscar Lopez in the American Thinker (who was raised by 2 lesbians) addresses the “human rights crisis” being caused by the LGBT movement, the “genetic selection, designer babies, human trafficking and “Black market” for babies.” If some one is interested I will find the link to this article.
Correction on the link to the FDA article
http://www.fda.gov/BiologicsBloodVaccines/BloodBloodProducts/QuestionsaboutBlood/ucm108186.htm
Masha Gessen, lesbian journalist states “”the institution of marriage” should not exist” and that homosexual activists are “lying about what we are going to do with marriage when we get there”.
The Washington Times article is no longer available on same-sex parenting. Sorry about that. Please forgive me Jill and moderators, I will try to become more computer savvy.
Del: “Why is PEOPLE Magazine celebrating this tragedy?”
On the plus side, people in the comments are universally condemning the decision to separate those poor twin babies. So maybe there’s some hope for our world.
I recall the case years ago of a Michigan woman who became a surrogate for a childless couple. The children were biologically hers. The couple husband was the biological father.
She discovered she was pregnant with twins and, expecting the couple to be overjoyed about two babies, became concerned when the couple did not seem that enthused. When she gave birth to a boy and girl, the couple selected the girl and the boy was left to his fate. Either the biological mother could keep him or place him for adoption. Though she tried, she could not bring herself to give up the baby boy for adoption and kept him. She was heartbroken that these babies were separated. The baby boy was very distressed, and she had no doubt it was due to being separated from his sister. Also, what kind of people would treat this little boy so callously?
She went to court and sued to have the girl returned to her and reunited with her brother. She and her husband were granted custody and the twins were legally adopted by her husband.
Thankfully the twins were reunited and neither of these children ended up with parents who seemed to regard them as little more than puppies in a litter.
At the end of the TV movie made about this incident, the surrogate has a party celebrating the twins’ adoption by her husband. The adoptive mother shows up distraught, wanting to see the little girl who had been taken from her. The surrogate firmly told her to take a hike. I don’t know if that actually happened, I can only hope it did.
“An article by Robert Oscar Lopez in the American Thinker (who was raised by 2 lesbians) addresses the “human rights crisis” being caused by the LGBT movement, the “genetic selection, designer babies, human trafficking and “Black market” for babies.” If some one is interested I will find the link to this article. ”
This is because Lopez is an idiot. If you get rid of every gay and lesbian couple you still have “genetic selection, designer babies, human trafficking and “black market” for babies”, because there are far, far more childless straight couples than there are same-sex couples. It’s never going to stop astounding me how much you guys blame on a tiny percentage of the population. Gay couples didn’t CAUSE this, they tacked on to stuff that straight people have been up to for a while.
Here’s what some lovely straight couples apparently think is an appropriate way to treat children: http://www.reuters.com/investigates/adoption/#article/part1
“Narcissistic self-love, leading to sexual behaviors that are intentionally sterile relationships ”
I’m so tired of this stuff. Sick of that. Is it too hard for people to imagine that gay people are just… people? No one knows where same sex attraction comes from, I imagine that it’s different for everyone. But people really, really have to stop pretending that it’s some choice. For whatever reasons some people are not attracted to the opposite gender, it doesn’t make them narcissistic or overly in-love with themselves, they didn’t go around saying “hey, you know what would be cool? Getting in relationships that make half the world hate me and say terrible things about me!”. Pretty much everyone wants love and affection, and it’s just pretty cruel to act as though people just jump into same sex relationships just to spite all that is good and holy. They just can’t get it with the opposite gender and it’s LONELY.
I listened to a sermon yesterday that a friend linked me where the pastor was talking about homosexuality and it was literally the only time I’ve heard a pastor actually attempt to understand what gay people, especially those who are struggling and want to live a Christian life, go through. He didn’t start babbling on about how they are self-involved narcissists, how they just want sex and don’t care about love, etc etc etc. Why is gay the only thing that it seems like people don’t even attempt to understand? How is it okay to constantly make assumptions and put people down because you don’t get what it’s like to be like them?
Hi Jack,
Famous people who had gay parents include Judy Garland, who was the child of a bisexual father. Vincent Minnelli, the father of Judy’s daughter Liza, was gay. Judy’s terrible life was due to her heterosexual domineering stage mother.
The movie Kramer vs Kramer was an excellent movie concerning the bias in favor of mothers in custody cases. Was the mother always the best parent by virtue of her gender? Well, for a long time that was assumed.
Who knows how many of our friends, neighbors, and even relatives had or are gay parents and we are none the wiser?
The situation I mention about the Michigan mother, which was all heterosexual is certainly an example of “designer baby”. I pick the one I want, the other is your problem. How many babies of heterosexual couples are disposed of for being the “wrong” sex or having some sort of “imperfection”, or only because they are inconvenient and unwanted?
I don’t condone what this gay couple has done by separating those twins anymore than I condone the heterosexual couple who treated his own biological children like puppies in a litter.
LGBT people have no monopoly in this “human rights crisis”, that is for certain.
“I don’t condone what this gay couple has done by separating those twins anymore than I condone the heterosexual couple who treated his own biological children like puppies in a litter.”
I don’t condone any of it. Just tired of people acting as though everything was all peaches and cream and nuclear families until gay people came along (as if they didn’t exist until the sixties, or something). The article I linked, about people giving away their adopted children on the internet… I didn’t see any gay couples (though I’m sure there are some that do that). The millions of abortions that happen a year surely aren’t predominately caused by LGBT people. IVF was a problem with straight couples way before it was used by gay people. It’s just ridiculous, and I’ll just go ahead and call it bigoted, to act as though these problems are all caused by people who aren’t straight. MOST gay parents raise their own biological kids from previous relationships, straight people do the same when their relationships fail.
It’s ok Jack I know you get frustrated with abusive heterosexual parents. I don’t give them a pass either because it is NOT ABOUT THEM EITHER!! You can call Lopez “an idiot” if that makes you feel better but it still does not negate his true life story of someone actually raised by gay parents, who embraced the gay lifestyle for over 20 years, never knew his biological father and the harm it has caused him and the other adult children of gays who have contacted him by the thousands who are against SSM. Two wrongs still don’t make it right. Because heterosexual parents have messed up (I know your story is very painful and I am sincerely sorry about that) that doesn’t mean we now embrace inventing “new families”. The LGBT activist and the “marriage equality” folks don’t want these stories coming out and they hate Lopez but these stories will keep coming out like the one on this thread and the Thomas Beattie story. Fact still is that SSM does not solve children’s problems and that SSM increases odds of divorce and the fall out for children will be devastating. Children are not property and human chattel to be divided up by heterosexual or homosexual or transgender or bi-sexual or polygamous folks. We don’t need to set kids up for more failure, we have already failed children enough by the “sexual revolution”, “no-fault” divorce, adultery, rampant out-of-wedlock births, (rates are now 40% of all U. S. babies born and over 70% in the AA community) and abortion (with out-of-wedlock birth being the primary motivation for aborting innocent babies) . I know you and others may believe embracing SSM is going to help children, I have every right to disagree and I believe the research is in my favor. The research on Sweden and Norway exposes the fallacy that “social engineering” to reinvent families doesn’t solve problems but creates a new problems. It is indeed a Pandora’s box. Even with the threats on his life and on his family at least Lopez has the backbone to speak out.
Question: since BHO who before his election in 2008 told Rick Warren that “I believe marriage is between one-man and one-woman and being a Christian I believe God is in the mix” just came out for SSM after he “evolved” a few months ago before being re-elected in 2011:
Was BHO a homophobic, bigot until a few months ago?
Was BHO a hateful, discriminator and persecutor of LGBT folks until a few months ago?
Was BHO spewing “hate speech” when he answered Rick Warren in 2008 before the entire TV audience?
Now since folks like me have not ‘evolved” like BHO and embraced SSM have we just become all of the names I just listed above or were we always those names? Hmmmmm.
“You can call Lopez “an idiot” if that makes you feel better but it still does not negate his true life story of someone actually raised by gay parents, who embraced the gay lifestyle for over 20 years, never knew his biological father and the harm it has caused him and the other adult children of gays who have contacted him by the thousands who are against SSM.”
I don’t call Lopez an idiot because he “shares his story”, I call him an idiot because he’s wrong. The choices are he’s either a liar, stupid, or willfully ignorant in order to advance his agenda (that’s my personal choice for his garbage, but I don’t know him so I can’t say for sure). Gay people didn’t CAUSE any of the stuff he complains about, no matter what he says. The facts back ME up on that, not him. So, he’s either lying, stupid, or willfully ignorant of what the facts are. Or maybe I am just being mean, maybe he’s just hurting and lashing out. But whatever it is, hurting more people isn’t going to fix what ails him.
And honestly I don’t have a lot of respect for someone who treats his mother like he does. His father is the one who abandoned him. If I recall correctly he was no turkey baster baby, his father abandoned him and his mother later got into a lesbian relationship. He complains about not having a male role model, well, maybe he should criticize his (presumably straight) bio dad with the same vigor he does the gay community. At least his mother tried to raise him right even if she made her fair share of mistakes I’m sure.
I’m not even arguing for same sex marriage, at all. I’m just sick of people making up stupid crap because it’s easier to pick on minority populations rather than admit this is a systemic issue that even holy grail heterosexual couples are perpetuating at far greater numbers than gay people are even capable of. I don’t call people bigots for not agreeing with same sex marriage and I really don’t think I ever have. I DO call people bigots for constantly, constantly calling names and making assumptions rather than bother to get even the basic understanding of what it’s like to not be straight and have to deal with that.
I always feel really bad for gay Christians (the ones who decide to either be celibate or give a straight relationship a go), because of how other certain “Christians” treat people. I don’t feel bad that they forgo their desires, that’s their choice and it’s admirable, I do feel bad for what they have to put up with from the so-called brothers and sisters.
So sad. Shouldn’t they give both children up for adoption to a family who will keep them together? Or maybe one of these men could raise both children? Counseling might be in order.
And for goodness sake not everything I say is a reaction to my childhood. I don’t object to the way gay people are talked about and treated because my parents sucked. Gay people are people. They deserve just as much dignity and respect as straight people. They don’t deserve to get blamed for every ill in the world and have people act like they are some special class of people unable to love. It’s a sin, I get that. You know what else is a sin? Lack of charity, and I find it very uncharitable the way that people focus on homosexuality and fail to even try to understand the people who struggle with it.
First of all, the market for all of this would exist (and would be as strong) without gay people. Gay people and straight people alike have latched onto these technologies for their own selfish purposes. Whether they realize it or not – treating human beings like commodities is selfish and that’s what these technologies do regardless of who is using them.
Jack, you cannot have listened to many pastors seriously speak about the cross of homosexual attraction if that’s the first time you’ve heard an expression of compassion for the heaviness of that cross.
“Jack, you cannot have listened to many pastors seriously speak about the cross of homosexual attraction if that’s the first time you’ve heard an expression of compassion for the heaviness of that cross.”
I’ve listened to a few. I usually find them a mass of misinformation and lack of understanding. I don’t consider that compassionate. What I liked about this guy is he straight up admitted that the Christian community has done an bad job at reaching out to non-heterosexuals and has alienated many (it’s refreshing to see that). He actually quoted from letters and books from non-heterosexual Christians so he was hearing it from actual people who have compassion for those in their former lives, and he admitted that he had a lot of misunderstandings and assumptions about gays and that he had a lot to learn. He didn’t speculate (incorrectly) about why people “choose” to go for the same gender, he didn’t blame all of societies problems on gays, he didn’t use scare tactics about gays taking over the world. It was refreshing and a lot better than most of what I’ve seen. The only Christian authority I’ve seen do anything similar was that guy who used to lead Exodus International, who admitted he’d been lying about not having gay desires anymore and he’s sorry for the harm he’s caused by insisting people be “fixed” rather than treating them as people who can be holy whether their desires are fixed or not. If you have anything else similar I’d honestly love to read it, my friend who sent me the sermon is also sending me a book by a gay celibate Christian I’m looking forward to reading.
But anyway, slightly off topic, anyone who wants to see another side to the adoption industry besides selfless, loving parents and infants given up at birth should read that article I linked. Especially you should go down to the part in the article where they show the posts that the adoptive “parents” made to try to find someone to take their kid off their hands. One of them was wanting to give up their “son” because they only wanted to adopt a little girl in the first place, but could only find one with an older brother, and he was just too much trouble. Don’t worry, they’re keeping the little girl! One who had I think three or four biological children adopted a boy and surprise surprise she wants to give him up because he has problems with her other kids.
Something needs to be done about this. You can’t split up twins because you’re too selfish to work with your ex on how to raise siblings together, you can’t give up a child’s brother because you only wanted to adopt a girl and he’s just in the way of you getting your dream family. I don’t understand how people can treat kids like this.
I’ve commented before about a remarkable dad, but it bears repeating: He and his wife were looking to adopt a child. The lawyer found of pair of brothers in foster care whose birth parents were legally 100% out of the picture. The wife wanted to take only one (or neither and wait for a single child). The husband wanted to scoop up both boys and give them a forever home. The wife left. The father raised them both. He’s my hero. More importantly, he’s his sons’ hero. The boys grew up together, and the love between them is nobody’s to destroy because of convenience or personal selfishness.
“The wife wanted to take only one (or neither and wait for a single child)”
It seems like me that’s a similar attitude to those who plan a pregnancy, but “selectively reduce” one or more multiples when they find out they are expecting twins or triplets. The kids are secondary to what the adults wanted and planned.
I know that some non-orthodox Christians and non-Christians really don’t understand the problem some of us have with the gender revolution. I just read a great article on by Father Andrew Greenwell on the subject and it was very interesting. However, understanding the concepts of The Theology of the Body makes the article easier to understand.
Let me see if I can wing a summary of what some of us see as the problem:
As a Catholic, I agree with my Church’s teaching that we are ensouled in our bodies, that our bodies and our souls are together. We are fully human at conception. Jesus was both fully God and fully human at conception. The soul is not a “ghost in a machine.” In the worldly view that we see around us, there is certainly a notion that we live in our body like a driver in a car. “If my car is female but I think I’m male, then the physical properties of my femaleness are wrong to me.” or “If my female body seems designed to be a mother, that is bad and I may render my body infertile, either temporarily or permanently.” THAT is error, we see.
As an orthodox style Christian, I do not agree that my body is a vehicle, a plaything, or any other kind of object to be bent to my will. It does not merely house me, it IS me. If I think my body is not me, then nobody else’s body is anybody either. Now, follow that line to it’s logical conclusion and welcome to modern secular western culture.
That’s my two cents for the week.
link below
http://catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=52391
Here’s the link.
I don’t get why people can believe (well, because you can’t deny them) God allows other congenital birth defects but are unwilling to entertain the possibility that the transgender issue may be along the same lines.
Jack may be referring to the ongoing human debate: Nature vs Nurture. Which has a greater influence on the organism? It may be quantitatively and qualitatively impossible to answer right now. We think we know all about everything, but really our biological and scientific data is still growing. My own gay friends will gladly entertain the notion that environmental factors played a role, though they don’t all agree with each other’s assessments of how much was nature and how much was nurture.
If I had to guess, I’d say that genetics, environment, and biological factors all play a role in things like homosexuality and transgenderism. There’s evidence suggesting all of it, so I’m sure the truth is somewhere in the middle and probably different for each person. What I don’t like is the weird implication that some people make is that people only become gay/transgender because they want to spite holiness. I really don’t think it’s about that for most people.
Regardless, it might not be possible to fix those desires/feelings for all people, as some Christians who have struggled will admit. I wish more people would understand this.
Who specifically has stated that some trans people are perfectly well adjusted and simply decided to be transgendered to spite holiness? Who stated that?
I’m with 9ek. I’ve never heard that, and I think most compassionate Christians would not make that argument.
I’ll third it – I have never heard that. I also know many people, myself included, who are perfectly willing to entertain the idea that there is a biological component to the desires for some people with homosexual attractions. I also acknowledge that the desires may never go away. Which changes nothing. The obligation of holiness is to exert the will towards good, which includes properly ordered sexual behavior.
I also acknowledge that the desires may never go away.
This conversation is stressing me. I want a smoke. And I threw my last cig out seven years ago.
I think I’m doing that thing where I assign motives to people they don’t have and for some reason think they’ve said the things that were only assigned to them in my crazy mind, so I’m sorry if I’m doing that again.
I have seen a lot of unnecessary condemnation of the gay or transgender people though, and I do get tired of seeing things like “narcissistic self-lovers” or “freak shows” and all that.
Oh, and I do think it’s completely ridiculous and inaccurate to act like things like IVF and baby buying are due to gay people, or even that large percentage of it. Lopez needs to base his rhetoric in fact. I really am not fond of that guy.
I think there’s a connection between all of it; sterile sex, treating children like property. it’s not the fault of one group, but somehow it’s connected. How can some of us see the tragedy of abortion and the destruction of IVF-created embryos and others just press on blithely??
Ask PLAGAL or any of the many contracepting pro-lifers. They somehow have sterile sex and still respect the sanctity of life.
Gay people don’t go for relationships with each other because it’s sterile, they do because they’re attracted to the same gender. Judging by the lengths that they go to have children (exactly like infertile straight couples do), I would wager many of them wish that it wasn’t sterile sex. Am I misunderstanding what you’re saying? I apologize if I am.
Lots of comments that I won’t respond to.
Jack, “you doth protest too much”. You write on this thread and on other threads about how others are harsh, and judgmental (especially so-called “Christians” like myself who you seem to consider hypocrites) yet you resort to name-calling when I bring up a certain man’s name, someone who “chose” to leave the homosexual lifestyle, who is critical of the gay parenting he grew up under. Actually, you appear to become quite angry, called him “an idiot” and appear to detest Mr. Lopez. You have a right to an opinion but I met someone who had an extensive discussion with Mr. Lopez regarding his life story and his reasons for being an opponent of SSM. I could be wrong but I would guess you have not done so. Actually, he is not the “idiot” you described but seems to be a very bright gentleman who has lived through a lot of pain in his life and actually loved his mother dearly but felt she made some bad choices that deeply affected him. He feels very strongly that SSM along with the promotion and embracing of same-sex parenting will hurt children (he has his own btw) and that it wil
l hurt the nation and civilization. I think your tirades about him are quite judgmental and harsh.
It seems that you have chosen to ignore my comments condemning selfish heterosexual couples for how much we have messed up and failed our children so terribly. I attribute the main reason that Jill’s blog even exist is because heterosexual couples having out-of-wedlock pregnancies want to abort the consequences of their actions. I did not attribute the problems of marital and family breakdown to homosexuals. WE have failed children.
My comment should have been directed to the ‘divorcing gay couple raising the twins separately” after going through all of the shenanigans of making twins one for each one of them, so I will apologize that I made a broad generalization about gay couples when I wrote “narcissistic self-love leading to sexual behaviors that are intentionally sterile relationships and intentionally refusing children either their mother or their father” (although the sterile sexual behavior and intentionally refusing children either a mother or father parts are true). I do not know the motivations of all gay couples, many are probably well-intentioned just as I believe you do not know Mr. Lopez’ motivations or his real intentions.
Although Jack may detest Mr. Lopez for not appreciating his childhood being raised by his lesbian mother. For those who may be interested in someone else’s story there is a new book ”Out From Under: The Impact of Homosexual Parenting ” by Dawn Stefanowicz, a Canadian, whose childhood was impacted by her homosexual father. I understand Canada is much more accepting of “gay marriage” than the U.S.
I meant to finish my post with: Although I have heard that Canada is much more accepting of “gay marriage” than the U.S. Dawn’s experiences were still very painful. She dedicates her book “to the defense of innocent children who cannot speak for themselves”. Hmmmm. Sounds like the reason that I am pro-life and pro “natural” marriage.
I’m apparently never going to be able to sleep and I have to be up in an hour so I’ll answer this now…
Yes, I don’t like Lopez. You ever met those people who used to smoke or drink, but look down their nose and get really, really judgmental at those who still do? With seeming no understanding or self-awareness that everyone is different and what works for them might not work the same way? That’s what he reminds me of. He’s a bisexual who married a woman, well good for him so am I. Doesn’t make him better than anyone else. Just because he apparently stopped being attracted to men at some point (maybe?) means that every single bisexual or gay man will, and he shows a real lack of understanding and compassion for this. And like I said, he’s just inaccurate when he attempts (over and over) to say designer babies, human trafficking, and all the other ills he can think is caused by the gay community. I can’t take him seriously. He can share his story as he wishes, but I don’t have to respect just flat out inaccuracy, that just takes a slight bit of common sense and the barest amount of research to fix.
Oh, and I would love, just once, Lopez to call out his father who wasn’t around with the same vigor he cries about his mother’s community all the time. I really think it shows some lack of self-awareness. He complains about his lack of straight male role models (as if millions of us boys who weren’t raised by lesbians got sufficient role models), but for some weird reason barely mentions his dad. I don’t get it.
And plus, he’s just not a very interesting writer, he uses scare rhetoric a lot (which I always find off-putting), and I don’t consider him much more than some pundit like Dan Savage or Rush Limbaugh. He’s not even you guy’s best bet for convincing people. He’s offensive and can’t even make his arguments particularly well, particularly when he just says stupid stuff like that LGBT community causes all this stuff that straight people have been doing more and longer.
And also Prolifer L I don’t argue for same sex marriage anymore (it’s all CT’s fault) so I don’t understand why you keep talking like I am. And I didn’t accuse you of blaming everything on gay people, that was directed at Lopez. But sorry I didn’t understand that you meant your comment about narcissism towards the divorcing gay couple here.
Wow – what’s that mean, lol.
I do think that there are people who have true animus towards homosexual and transgendered people. I also think there are people who have become more hostile because they get lumped in with the first group even when it’s not the case. I have seen a tremendous turn in the gay rights movement from one I could and used to support (ie people deserve to be treated in accordance with their human dignity) towards something I’ve felt obligated to vocally oppose (that unless you acknowledge all these behaviors as equal and validate them as acceptable alternatives, you are not respecting gay people as human beings). I didn’t used to be as vocal about this subject (at all) but in the past say … 3-5 years, I have had no choice. But I agree with a lot of what you want for homosexual and transgendered people, Jack.
Lol, all I meant was you argued me into corners I couldn’t get out of unless I stubbornly said “Um, NO YOURE WRONG BECAUSE MY FEELINGS” which is not exactly a solid argument. That’s generally how I change my mind, if I argue a position and realize I ultimately can’t defend it. I’d still much rather the government get out of the marriage business all together and just issue civil unions.
I never said anyone deliberately gets into a same sex relationship to avoid pregnancy (that would be Denise, lol!). The mindset that sex should not result in children is found in both same and opposite sex couples. Being open to life doesn’t mean every sex act must be between a fertile couple (that’s right, you elderly people just cut it out! LOL!), but yes, the sexual revolution and the treatment of children as property are related. Maybe its for the sociologists and anthropologists to sort it all out as to cause and effect.
“I do think that there are people who have true animus towards homosexual and transgendered people. I also think there are people who have become more hostile because they get lumped in with the first group even when it’s not the case.”
I missed this earlier. Yes, I agree that people get those who are actually bigoted confused with those who simply oppose homosexuality for moral reasons but don’t dislike gay people. I tend to do it. I think if you’re on the offensive because you feel attacked it’s easy to lump everyone together. And considering that the people who actually dislike LGBT people like to pretend that they’re actually like the rest of you, it’s easy to view everyone with suspicion. It’s not right, but it’s easy. And I think it works both ways. There are those in the gay community that hate Christianity, but most don’t, but all get lumped together.
I don’t really have a disagreement with your comment 9ek, I do think the “sexual revolution” (as in, promoting promiscuity of whatever orientation) led to the hook up culture, which was not a very good idea and isn’t very healthy, and definitely leads to more abortions.
I can’t copy and paste anymore :-( I thought it would work itself out like last time, but I think I’ve been banned for abuse of copy and paste. When I do it, I can’t see the text but then it shows up when I post….so any smart people know what’s going on?
But anyway, Jack “I think it works both ways….” Yes, absolutley.
When you paste, it won’t show up, but just make sure your little cursor dude is in the comment box and push delete, you should see the text before you post. It does that to me like half the time.
OMG. Brilliant. Thank you.
Jack, thank you for clarifying that you do not argue for SSM anymore. I must of missed that on one of the extra long threads on that topic, I was stuck on my assumption that you were. Please accept my apology. Thanks CT.
Yes, I do agree there are people with animus for homosexual and transgendered people. I want to see everyone treated with dignity and respect. My problem right now is what CT described at 2:09pm 9-19-13, now it’s a reverse bulling if you have moral, spiritual and religious reasons for not embracing LGBT you are now a homophobic bigot who is apt to lose a job, a position, a business, etc. (Ask Sgt. Monk in the USAF who is being punished after almost 20 years of exemplary service because his lesbian commander insisted he needed to punish a lower ranking serviceman for expressing an unofficial opinion that he believes in natural sexual complimentary marriage and ask the Christian Bed and Breakfast in Paxton, IL (yes they had signs advertising they are a Christian business) if they are being sued out of business . Me and other family members working in my healthcare have followed this golden rule (I have a relative who has taken care of AIDS patients in his practice)I have other relatives who worked in education for years treating all students with dignity and respect (yes they know they have LGBT students) but everyone is treated fairly.
I especially hurt for teens who are struggling with their sexuality, not all but many I’ve met have been wounded, physically or sexually abused or neglected (sometimes all three of these) in childhood.
I mentored an older teen girl who was struggling with promiscuity, lesbianism. cutting, low self esteem and bi-sexuality issues all at the same time. She had been neglected because she looked different than everyone else in her family so she was “looking for love in all of the wrong places”. She was experimenting to find love she came to the conclusion that she was not lesbian or bi.
I have been asked by a friend to try to find counseling or a program to help a young teen who tried to lure a 4 year old neighbor with candy and money, (the 4 year old described what the teen told him he wanted him to do) so the mother, police and DCFS could confirm the sexual assault attempt (the 4 y.o. had never heard of such things, thank God the teen did not get very far before the child told). No one wants this teen in juvenile if possible. We want him healed, and to get him help before he ends up in prison or some parent kills him for abusing their child. We’re looking for something in IL.
I think pedophilia and homosexuality are quite different things. I do hope yall can help that boy.