Obama: Kindergarten sex ed “the right thing to do”
I remember Alan Keyes — I ran against Alan Keyes — but I remember him using this in his campaign against me, saying, ‘Barack Obama supports teaching sex education to kindergartners’.
And you know, I didn’t know what to tell him. But it is the right thing to do, to provide age-appropriate sex education, science-based sex education in the schools.
~ President Barack Obama being quoted in light of the Chicago Public Schools system “mandating that the district’s kindergarten classes include sex education”, CNS News, August 30
[HT: Drudge Report, Laura Loo; photo via Catalogs.com]
Sep.02, 2013 6:00 am |
Obama |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Age appropriate sex education for kindergartners = no sexual education for kindergartners.
Mr. President did you ever talk to your kids when they were kindergartners? Some kindergartners can’t hold a pencil, many can’t read, many don’t know the alphabet or how to count to 10. I would say that you don’t have your priorities correct, but the level of your error in this statement is beyond a misapprehension of priorities. It is a gigantic misunderstanding of the development of human beings.
I wish Mr. Obama would give me some reason to loathe him less.
Mr. President:
The appropriate sex-education for kindergartners is the difference between “good touch” and “bad touch.” And Mr. President — lessons about “good” and “bad” are moral lessons, not science lessons.
And this is the point that you simply fail to get. All sex-education is necessarily moral education. Sex always involves either good relationships with other persons and abusing other persons, and these are moral concerns. When you speak of “science-based sex education,” we know that you really mean indoctrination in bad morality.
And since you promote Planned Parenthood as the premier expert in sex education of young children — We know that you are paying off the abortion industry and their lies.
Mr. President: KEEP AWAY FROM OUR CHILDREN!!!!
PS — In another thread, I got in some small trouble for mentioning this… but it seems appropriate to bring it up again.
This is why we need a movement toward a Separation of Education and State.
This is just the latest effort by the State to indoctrinate our children against the teaching of parents. If you want your children to be “educated” — that is, if you want them to receive the best lessons of American culture and accumulated family wisdom, then you need to support alternative education.
This is what the home schooling movement is all about — give the best of love and wisdom to our kids. They will probably be better prepared for fulfilling careers as well (most likely, self-employed).
We also need to support those local start-up Catholic and Evangelical Christian schools. These are great works and charity, and deserving a portion of our charitable giving. Pro-life kids come from these schools.
And we need to encourage those established private and parish schools to break away from the public-school models and standards — perhaps teaching classical education. The point is to ignore the low bar set by state standards, and really teach our kids in a wholesome. We can do a lot better job of sex education by ignoring Obama’s indoctrination scheme.
Go to americanhumanist.org and read all versions of the Humanist Manifesto. What Obama is doing is falling lock-step with them. John Dewey, considered to be the “father of modern education”, signed the first one. He died before the other versions emerged. The public schools today are deadly.
Stay classy, Obama.
Makes sense for kids to learn where not to be touched – with the amount of child abuse these days, to ignore the issue is a disservice. Heck, I question a bit the motives of people who want to ignore the subject.
I wish he explained more about what he considers “age appropriate” sex education for kindergarten kids. Maybe like in the UK – showing them pornographic cartoons about mommy and daddy “doing it” and how pleasurable it is and then watching kids simulate sex acts in the playground. Yes! 3-4 year olds! Or maybe like in the primary school teaching them about porn. Not that it is bad for you, but that it is actually “good ” for you, if you learn to enjoy it “safely” and learn the difference between erotics and porn playing special computer games. Yes, this is a proposed sex-education reform for porn to be included into the national curriculum for primary schools. I bet Mr Obama would agree this is very appropriate and suitable education for little children.
Vita -
You are going to need to back up what you say on this one – best I can find on the UK, they don’t do any sex education until age 5, and it is much different from how you are explaining it.
http://www.fpa.org.uk/factsheets/sex-and-relationships-education
Whatever the curriculum, it is simply a matter of a group of people (Admins, teachers, politicians) saying another group (parents) are incompetent when it comes to raising children.
That they get away with doing such things begins to make me wonder about how self-absorbed we really are…
Chris – I agree 100% – and I also believe a lot of parents simply aren’t competent enough. I mean, we can list a few sex abuse scandals and situations that could have been avoided…
Depend on what he thinks “age appropriate sex education” is. I don’t see anything wrong with anatomy and learning which areas are “private” and good touches va bad touches like someone said. Other than that I don’t think anything else is all that appropriate.
Ok but “good” vs “bad” touching has been taught to young kids for a long time. I remember having safety talks about private zones when I was quite young-1st grade at the latest. So if they’re talking about expanding sex ed for kindergarteners, and discussing “science-based” learning, then I would hazard to say this is about indoctrination more than education.
Surprise, surprise, so it seems like what the content of the suggestion is might actually be important…so simply jumping off the deep end and assuming things might be foolish!
So let’s spend 30 seconds on the internet and find quotes.
Oh, here we go:
http://www.ontheissues.org/2012/Barack_Obama_Education.htm
Direct conversation in a debate with Keyes.
KEYES: [to Obama]: You voted that sex education should begin in kindergarten but it would be “age appropriate sex education.” But you opposed putting internet filters in schools. It makes me wonder what exactly you think is age appropriate. Do you believ that in the 2nd grade we should be teaching from books like Heather Has Two Mommies.
OBAMA: Actually, that wasn’t what I had in mind. We have an existing law that mandates sex education in the schools and we want to make sure that it’s medically accurate and age appropriate. I have a 3 year old daughter and a six year old daughter and one of the things I talk about with my wife is the possibility of someone touching them inappropriately. And that’s why [sex education] is in the law. So they can exercise some kind of protection against abuse. As for filters, I have voted for them. In the school setting, there was information schoolchildren could not access such as information about breast cancer, which is why there was a broad opposition.
______________________________________
So – please stand up and let everybody know – does anybody disagree with Obama in regards to sex education at young ages given what he stated?
Heck, I question a bit the motives of people who want to ignore the subject.
Perhaps instead of questioning their motives you should question your own understanding of their position. Being against public schools teaching “science-based sex education” beginning in kindergarten isn’t the same as ignoring the subject. What understanding of sex is appropriate for all 5 year olds? And who gets to determine what is age-appropriate? And what topics will be taught? Will “gender” be on the curriculum? Will it be gender as it appears in most families or will it include the new definitions of gender? Yeah, I can see a lot to be concerned about here.
and I also believe a lot of parents simply aren’t competent enough. I mean, we can list a few sex abuse scandals and situations that could have been avoided…
Please tell us about these “sex abuse scandals and situations that could have been avoided”. What knowledge would have resulted in a child being able to avoid sex abuse? This sounds like it’s getting dangerously close to victim blaming to me.
Developmental Messages:
And so forth. If you scroll through the PDF, you will see that everything labeled “Level 1” is for 5-8 year olds.
Does the President approve or disapprove of the SIECUS guidelines?
Ex-GOP says:
So – please stand up and let everybody know – does anybody disagree with Obama in regards to sex education at young ages given what he stated?
We do not trust Obama to do what he says.
– He says what we want to hear.
– He does what he wants to do.
He wants to promote contraception and abortion… and perhaps homosexuality.
He does not want to promote families, the good welfare of children, and the passing down of American culture as it was from the time of the Founding Fathers to the era of the Greatest Generation.
Del -
Sure, if that’s what you think, that’s what you think. You can make up the motives of anybody you want and let that be your guiding platform. It’s a fun little game – I’ll go next. I think the GOP establishment hates black people and are going to work the laws so that they are massively suppressed when it comes to voting.
There, can we move on now from crazy ideas?
Kel –
Unless you find evidence to say he supports those guidelines, I’m guessing he doesn’t.
“• Both boys and girls have body parts that feel good when touched.”
I think kids have figured out this one on their own bodies by five, at least my five year old has. I do agree I don’t see it necessary to talk about in class though, unless it’s part of a sexual abuse awareness curriculum (if someone touches you here, even if it feels good it isn’t your fault and you need to tell a trusted adult, etc).
I don’t see why people would be upset about the teaching gay people exists thing. I think by eight years old kids should be aware that some people are different (if parents have religious objections they can explain that to their own children) and that difference doesn’t mean it’s okay to treat people poorly. I don’t see why it’s wrong to teach that. There isn’t anything in that particular blurb you quoted saying “homosexuality is okay”, it’s just factual.
and I also believe a lot of parents simply aren’t competent enough.
And there it is — another member of the “educated” elite who believes that many of you parents are just not competent enough. Wouldn’t want you to get too big for your britches and think that you are actually the parent with parental rights or something. LOL
And to any business owners out there reading this, don’t forget, “You didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.”
I don’t see why people would be upset about the teaching gay people exists thing.
What about teaching that people with sexual fetishes exist? Don’t want to discriminate against those folks who are sexually attracted to feet.
There isn’t anything in that particular blurb you quoted saying “homosexuality is okay”, it’s just factual.
It’s also factual that some people have sex with people other than their spouses, and/or with more than one person at a time. What age should the teacher start discussing this?
Unless you find evidence to say he supports those guidelines, I’m guessing he doesn’t.
LOL - ‘guessing’ key word.
I don’t know Prax, do people with foot fetishes commit suicide at four times the national rate for non-foot-fetished people? Are pejorative terms for people with foot-fetishes used at schools to put people down (a lot of the time it seems like they’re used to put straight boys down for not being “masculine” enough)? And I really don’t think you can see some married couple or a couple in high school and know they are foot-fetishists or swingers, like you can tell that someone is in a gay couple right off the bat. It’s a false equivalence, fetishes and infidelity are a different topic.
I also think children should be taught young that “slut” and “whore” and other gender-based slurs are not okay, as well as being taught “fag” and “homo” aren’t.
Are we supposed to teach little kids all the possible choices they can make in life with no input on right or wrong, wise or unwise? Must Japanese parents stop expecting their children to succeed in business because so many commit suicide after a setback?
Sure, most 5-8 year olds can tell that someone is “in a gay couple right off the bat”.
“Must Japanese parents stop expecting their children to succeed in business because so many commit suicide after a setback? “
Should they do nothing about the high incidence of suicide in that culture?
“Sure, most 5-8 year olds can tell that someone is “in a gay couple right off the bat”. – See more at”
You think five-year-olds can’t tell the difference between a male and female holding hands, and a male and male holding hands? My five-year-old definitely can, as well as noticing if he sees a man wearing a skirt or something of that nature.
I just don’t think my children need to be sheltered from everything I disagree with. If I disagree with something, even if the majority opinion is that it’s okay, I can teach my children differently. Should I be petitioning my child’s school for allowing meat to be served or something? Should I complain if they teach him that it’s not okay to be mean to people who eat meat? I don’t get what people think should be done about things like that. Is it that terrible to say “sometimes people are like this, and we shouldn’t be mean to them.” They’re eventually going to realize people don’t agree on everything, and it’s not the end of the world.
Alcoholics have a much higher rate of suicide as well. Do we need to talk to elementary kids that they not bully kids from alcoholic homes? Should we put a rectangle on classroom doors letting children with alcoholic parents know that we are a safe space for them?
I think we make stopping ALL bullying a priority and stop arguing about what group is bullied more. If I heard a kid picking on another kid because that kid’s dad had a known foot fetish, I would step in. I would step in if a kid was being bullied because his mom is an alcoholic. I would step in if a child was being bullied because his dad was a a workaholic and seldom home. Bullying of anyone is wrong.
I don’t know that suicidal stats are kept on those who have a fetish of any type and maybe their rates are higher than those with homosexual attractions. There is no way of knowing.
I’m not sure how you pick up that a couple is gay right off the bat. Me and my best girlfriend have been close since we were young and have also been accused of being gay. This has happened to other people that I know. What are the signs and am I just missing them?
Holding hands?
I know straight friends and relatives who hold hands.
“Alcoholics have a much higher rate of suicide as well. Do we need to talk to elementary kids that they not bully kids from alcoholic homes? Should we put a rectangle on classroom doors letting children with alcoholic parents know that we are a safe space for them? ”
There should be a safe space for all bullied kids. Christian kids, children of alcoholics, gay kids or children of gay people, etc. my issue is that people react strongly to saying “you shouldn’t be mean to gay people or use sexuality as a slur.” How is that a bad thing to teach? If the curriculum was “some people believe in Jesus, and they shouldn’t be treated badly or religion used as a slur” I don’t think anyone would be freaking out about indoctrination. I believe all of us commenting here would agree that’s a good thing to teach, that religious bullying is bad. But when it comes to being taught that about gay people it’s wrong? I see a problem with that.
Some things that kids are bullied for are more prevalent than others, and some populations are more at risk than others. That doesn’t mean that other reasons kid are bullied don’t matter, it’s just acknowledging that’ there’s a huge issue in one area, not saying that there are no issues in another.
Is there a problem with groups and safe space geared towards females, since sexism and sexist bullying is a problem?
“Me and my best girlfriend have been close since we were young and have also been accused of being gay. This has happened to other people that I know. What are the signs and am I just missing them? ”
Now see this is bullying based on perception of sexuality. That is wrong. I’ve been accused of being a “fag” more times than I can count and way before I was “out of the closet”, and I didn’t even go to school! You can see there’s a problem with people sticking their noses in other people’s sexual orientation and bullying based on whatever perceptions they have.
In order to avoid people sticking their nose in other people’s sexual orientation and bullying, we should introduce all 5-8 year olds to the concept of sexual orientation. Got it.
What did you tell your kids when they were little if they saw a couple of the same gender kissing or something like that Lrning? I’m just curious.
JDC,
Should they do nothing about the high incidence of suicide in that culture?
Of course not. But unless the Japanese parents are way too oppressive, it’s not their fault if their child takes such a bad reaction to a failure. We should expect the best for others.
Wait so being financially successful is more important than being alive?
If you tell your kid from birth that they are a stain on the family name if their business ventures fail, I would consider you partially responsible if they commit suicide after a financial failure (not saying this is what Japanese parents do, I actually have no clue what the issue is with the Japanese suicide rate, just using an example). If I told my kids that I only love them if they were non-religious, or straight, or anything like that, an they were failures if they did anything i dont approve of,I would be partially at fault for their suicides if they could not live up to my ridiculous expectations of perfection.
Some things that kids are bullied for are more prevalent than others, and some populations are more at risk than others.
Having been in a public school for awhile now, the kids I see being bullied the most are those who are overweight and/or are poor and/or special ed. There are no specific safe spaces for these kids. There has never been a required documentary shown during health class about the specific bullying of these kids either.
You can see there’s a problem with people sticking their noses in other people’s sexual orientation and bullying based on whatever perceptions they have.
No, the problem is that some groups with an agenda have been semi-successful in their attempts to sexualize even platonic friendships and hand-holding.
Other than hand-holding, how do you personally identify a couple as homosexual right off the bat, Jack. I’m obviously missing something.
There should be a safe space for all bullied kids.
Right. We used to call this space ‘school’.
“Having been in a public school for awhile now, the kids I see being bullied the most are those who are overweight and/or are poor and/or special ed. There are no specific safe spaces for these kids. There has never been a required documentary shown during health class about the specific bullying of these kids either.”
There should be targeted approaches towards these groups as well. Body shaming and things like that are prevalent and obviously kids need to being taught that bullying based on these things is just as wrong as any other bullying. Maybe a group that is anti-body shaming should start making waves like the gay acceptance groups have.
“No, the problem is that some groups with an agenda have been semi-successful in their attempts to sexualize even platonic friendships and hand-holding. ”
Wait, so in like the sixties before gay advocate groups were prevalent, two guys could hold hands walking down the street and everyone would be cool with that? I’m gonna go with “no way” on that one. I would like people to learn to stop attacking people based on sexuality and stop bullying anyone based on what you think about their orientation.
I don’t go around trying to “identify” gay people, so I’m not sure what you’re asking. If I see two people of the same gender kissing each other on the mouth I’ll probably make some personal assumptions but I usually find it none of my business. My point with the “right off the bat” comment is that kids will point out when they see something that they aren’t used to seeing. A straight couple might have all kind of perversions and fetishes, but unless they are doing something right in front of you, kids aren’t going to see them as any different from mommy and daddy. But they will notice something different about a gay couple. My son certainly enjoys pointing out things he notices that are different about people, though I finally got it so he asks me privately rather than in front of everyone.
When my kids were little, other than discussing good/bad touch/private parts, we answered questions as they came up. When they saw our transvestite neighbor in a dress and wig and asked why, I said “he must like wearing a dress and wig”. When they questioned why their friend was wearing nail polish, I said “he likes the way the nail polish looks”. My kids never saw a same-sex couple kissing when they were young. They didn’t see that until high school & middle school, well after they’d already covered the topic of human sexuality & reproduction in school and at home.
No, I don’t believe sexuality is an age-appropriate topic for all 5-8 year olds. We don’t need to go there to introduce the lesson against bullying and that all people are deserving of kindness and respect. I’m far more appreciative of efforts of the public schools to introduce this in a context that’s in line with the experiences of most 5-8 year olds. Like don’t make fun of people that look different than you (skin color, glasses, hair color, disabilities, boys that wear nail polish, lack of good hygiene, etc ), act different than you (jump rope instead of play soccer, play with the dolls instead of the trucks, etc). If an individual child is exposed to something that needs greater explanation, that is a parent’s job! It’s not the job of the public school to expose the children to these topics, so they can then educate them about it.
“When they saw our transvestite neighbor in a dress and wig and asked why, I said “he must like wearing a dress and wig””
Lol that’s basically the exact same thing I said to my son when he asked me why the guy we saw was wearing a skirt. “He probably likes a skirt more than pants, some guys like to wear clothes that women usually wear.” When we got home he put his boy dolls in dresses because he said they liked it better than pants, lol. He had the same questions about gay couples. He was also quite confused that Muslim women wear head coverings. “Why do they do that? Aren’t they hot?”.
So if I understand you right Lrning you’re fine if people teach that you shouldn’t treat people badly based on whatever, but you feel as though they are doing this in an age inappropriate way?
Maybe a group that is anti-body shaming should start making waves like the gay acceptance groups have.
You mean to try to make everyone believe that being overweight is just as healthy as not? Maybe Michelle Obama really is a fataphobe and hates overweight children because she doesn’t believe overeating is a healthy choice.
But they will notice something different about a gay couple.
Like what? Kids and everyone else notice any couple groping and swapping spit in pubic – this is something they should not be exposed to in school so why would it need to be addressed there? It is the parent’s place to explain why some folks can’t seem to keep their hands to themselves while in public place.
“You mean to try to make everyone believe that being overweight is just as healthy as not? Maybe Michelle Obama really is a fataphobe and hates overweight children because she doesn’t believe overeating is a healthy choice.”
Where did I say that schools should be teaching that homosexuality/bisexuality/whatever is exactly as healthy as heterosexuality? Saying “gay people exist, and shouldn’t be treated badly” isn’t the same as “homosexuality is a perfectly valid choice, and you’re wrong if you think it’s immoral”.
“Like what? Kids and everyone else notice any couple groping and swapping spit in pubic – this is something they should not be exposed to in school so why would it need to be addressed there? It is the parent’s place to explain why some folks can’t seem to keep their hands to themselves while in public place. ”
I wasn’t really thinking about PDAs. I was thinking more of the kids noticing that Mark or Martha has two daddies instead of a mommy and daddy on Parent’s Night, or something of that nature. Same for the kids that realize that Michael is being raised by only his mommy, rather than a mommy or daddy (though sadly single parenting and divorce seems as common as two parent homes now).
I don’t think my 5-year-old has any business knowing the words “sl*t” and “f*g” and he knows that calling people “stupid” isn’t acceptable, let alone anything worse. And I don’t see that my son’s teacher should educate him on these words.
For crying out loud, we act like the failure of some to parent well is a good excuse to LOWER our standards of parenting! It isn’t! Kids know what is name-calling and what isn’t, and pretty much every grade-school classroom includes a no name-calling rule. So enforce it when necessary and don’t teach the kids the names they shouldn’t call people. What the heck sense does that make???
So if I understand you right Lrning you’re fine if people teach that you shouldn’t treat people badly based on whatever, but you feel as though they are doing this in an age inappropriate way?
Correct. I think that explicitly including sexuality (and other more mature topics) in the “whatever” can be inappropriate.
Where did I say that schools should be teaching that homosexuality/bisexuality/whatever is exactly as healthy as heterosexuality?
Are you saying the “gay acceptance groups” are not pushing this? Would you be okay with a teacher stating that homosexual parents are not as healthy for children as hetrosexual parents are?
I was thinking more of the kids noticing that Mark or Martha has two daddies instead of a mommy and daddy on Parent’s Night,
What about kids coming with a grandparent, or just one parent, or an aunt? What about a man bringing his brother along? What about a parent who shows up drunk — yes this happens. Let the parents explain this to their kids. It doesn’t need to be included in a class for crying in the rain.
In spite of what Ex-GOP thinks and what it appears you agree with, parents are competent enough to explain this to their children.
Lrning – Hmm, well my son has asked about my track marks and I clumsily tried to explain heroin addiction to him because I promised myself I’d never lie to my kids about anything I’ve done (he thinks it’s ridiculous “why would you do something that makes you sick on purpose Daddy? That’s silly”). But I wouldn’t ever try to explain it to someone else’s kid and don’t think it should be introduced to young children who aren’t affected by it in their families. So if I’m understanding correctly you would think of homosexuality the same way (if a family member is gay or bi or whatever, parents should explain that how they see fit, but it shouldn’t be introduced by a non-parent even as a anti-bullying tactic)? I can agree with that.
What about kids coming with a grandparent, or just one parent, or an aunt? What about a man bringing his brother along? What about a parent who shows up drunk — yes this happens. Let the parents explain this to their kids. It doesn’t need to be included in a class for crying in the rain.
Personally, I was exposed to a lot more public drunkenness and divorce than I was to homosexual relationships as a kid. I realize that times have shifted in the last 20 years, but nonetheless, my parents were perfectly capable of teaching me what a divorce was about in an age-appropriate way. In fact, it was much MORE understandable and much LESS awkward when my parents did the explaining than it was when we had a lesson on “families come in all shapes and sizes.”
I just think it’s ridiculous that we’re so afraid of our children asking awkward questions that we’re willing to expose them to inappropriate lessons and terminology “in case” they ask us what something is or means when -gasp!- someone might hear!
“Are you saying the “gay acceptance groups” are not pushing this? Would you be okay with a teacher stating that homosexual parents are not as healthy for children as hetrosexual parents are? ”
No, I think that’s inappropriate. I would think it inappropriate for schools to say that being non-religious is better than being religious, though I would find it okay if they told kids you shouldn’t be mean to others if they don’t agree with your lifestyle choices like religion.
“What about kids coming with a grandparent, or just one parent, or an aunt? What about a man bringing his brother along? What about a parent who shows up drunk — yes this happens. Let the parents explain this to their kids. It doesn’t need to be included in a class for crying in the rain.”
I’m thinking what if the kids decide to bully Mark or Martha for having two daddies, or a drunk mommy, or no mommy and daddy at all and their grandma is bringing them to school. Should the schools not intervene if the parents refuse to stop the bullying. That’s what I’m trying to figure out. I get what Lrning is saying, that some topics are inappropriate and you can teach “don’t bully or be mean” without getting into them, but I’m wondering how you feel it should be explained/dealt with if parents don’t step up and require their kids to treat others well even if they don’t agree with them.
Should the schools not intervene if the parents refuse to stop the bullying. That’s what I’m trying to figure out. I get what Lrning is saying, that some topics are inappropriate and you can teach “don’t bully or be mean” without getting into them, but I’m wondering how you feel it should be explained/dealt with if parents don’t step up and require their kids to treat others well even if they don’t agree with them.
The same way schools teach not to bully in any other instances. Don’t do it. It’s unkind and we expect you to treat one another kindly. You have lost privileges and we will be speaking with your parents. If it continues, you can expect more severe consequences (like detention, suspension, etc). There are rules and consequences for a reason and bullying is no exception.
But we needn’t alter curriculum to cater to the parents who have done a crummy job of teaching basic kindness. You simply make it clear that good behavior is an expectation, not an option, and then prove it.
Are you saying the “gay acceptance groups” are not pushing this?
You missed answering this question, Jack.
All three of my sons have been bullied. They are “socialized” in public school. :)
They are not overweight, poor or special ed or gay.
It has very little to do with THEM and everything to do with the bully.
And I will add a big NO to what Obama wants kindergartners to learn. But if Planned Parenthood is behind the sex ed it is hardly a surprise.
Spot on MaryRose!!
I’m thinking what if the kids decide to bully Mark or Martha for having two daddies
LOL. I don’t think many parents would say that Mark or Martha has two daddies. They would probably say that Mark and Martha’s dad has a roommate or a friend.
Parents saying this would more than likely irk some in the gay acceptance groups and that’s why they want books read about two daddies/two mommies in the classroom — they want their sexual behaviors accepted equally to that of a married man and woman.
“You missed answering this question, Jack.”
Sorry, I thought it was clear I didn’t agree with that. Some organizations may, but that’s not my fault that they believe as they do.
“LOL. I don’t think many parents would say that Mark or Martha has two daddies. They would probably say that Mark and Martha’s dad has a roommate or a friend. ”
Yes, except Mark or Martha are probably going to say “I have two daddies”, because that’s how they are being raised.
“Parents saying this would more than likely irk some in the gay acceptance groups and that’s why they want books read about two daddies/two mommies in the classroom — they want their sexual behaviors accepted equally to that of a married man and woman.”
Yes, because all people who are LGBT or have a significant other of the same gender want this taught in public schools. I certainly don’t, my sister doesn’t, and I know several others who aren’t interested in that. They probably don’t see it as a big a deal as you do, but you’re conflating what special interest groups want with what other people want, which is wrong.
“The same way schools teach not to bully in any other instances. Don’t do it. It’s unkind and we expect you to treat one another kindly. You have lost privileges and we will be speaking with your parents. If it continues, you can expect more severe consequences (like detention, suspension, etc). There are rules and consequences for a reason and bullying is no exception. ”
Yes, this makes sense. Do you think the teachers should say anything when the kids say “well, my mom and dad say that Mark’s mother is wrong for not having a daddy in the home” or something of that nature? Or “my mom and dad say that Catholics are idol worshippers and are going to hell” (that’s not something I have made up, I have heard people say that and think it’s not appropriate). I am trying to figure out where people would like this line drawn.
I’d imagine in these situations it’s somewhat case-by-case, but overall, the correct response is, “That doesn’t make it okay to treat Mark unkindly. I expect you to be nice to your classmates,” and follow it up with a conversation with the parents that addresses the behavior itself and what was said. Don’t make it an unnecessary confrontation, just clearly state, “This is what your child did. This is what he said. This behavior is unacceptable for this reason and this is the consequence should it continue.”
“I’d imagine in these situations it’s somewhat case-by-case, but overall, the correct response is, “That doesn’t make it okay to treat Mark unkindly. I expect you to be nice to your classmates,” and follow it up with a conversation with the parents that addresses the behavior itself and what was said. Don’t make it an unnecessary confrontation, just clearly state, “This is what your child did. This is what he said. This behavior is unacceptable for this reason and this is the consequence should it continue.” ”
Okay, that does seem like the best response to that type of situation. I do wonder, don’t you think some people will consider it infringing on a child’s religious freedom to prevent them from sharing viewpoints they learned at home? Do you think that all such talk should be prevented? So now I’m wondering where the line between sharing your views and bullying should be, in people’s opinion. If my son tells a kid who is eating meat that he’s killing animals and it’s wrong to eat meat, is that okay or no? If Billy tells Mark that it’s wrong to be in a gay relationship and his parents are sinners, is that okay or no?
Fine Prax -
The 8 year old that crashed the family car and killed the six year old sister. How about the five year old that killed another small kid recently in a gun accident. Or how about the thousands of already parents that have abortions each year.
Who do you want to start with in convincing me that they are competent. Let me know.
“Of course not. But unless the Japanese parents are way too oppressive, it’s not their fault if their child takes such a bad reaction to a failure. We should expect the best for others.”
What if their is found to be a causal relationship between emphasis on a certain type of success and reacting badly to failure? Fault aside, would it be a good idea to avoid parenting in a way that increases the probability of suicide?
The 8 year old that crashed the family car and killed the six year old sister.
The mother was sleeping when the children snuck out. How does having to sleep make a parent incompetent? Do you lock your children in every night?
How about the five year old that killed another small kid recently in a gun accident.
I am in favor or laws that hold adults accountable for keeping loaded guns around children, aren’t you? Should the schools teach elementary kids that all gun-owning parents are incompetent?
Or how about the thousands of already parents that have abortions each year.
It’s the party you support that wants to keep abortion legal. Most people associate legal with moral. Are you okay with teachers telling middle/high school students that abortion is immoral?
My (at the time) 11 year old’s middle school wanted to open the discussion of treating others well and doing good things for others by first introducing him to a specific story involving sex outside of marriage, spousal abuse, peer bullying, horrific and disfiguring child abuse, alcoholism, homelessness, and ultimately a child murdering a child. I was not amused. This is the state of public education in our country. I was a freakish and over-protective parent for not wanting my child included in that lesson. The teachers *knew* that my child and all those in the class could handle it. Yep, it’s the parents that are incompetent. The government must ensure that children are protected from their incompetent/prejudiced/whatever parents through the school curriculum. Pfft.
If there is an issue that arises, the teacher should step in. In most cases, I feel like kids can express their opinions without this constant stepping on eggshells that we as adults expect. Usually these things blow over in 2-3 sentences and the child with the gay parents just has a chance to assert himself. Sometimes they don’t, and in those cases, a teacher should indeed get involved and explain that our opinions don’t give us the right to be unkind and reiterate the golden rule. If you can’t say anything nice, don’t say anything at all.
Prax – I’m not talking about the legality of abortion here – I’m talking about the competency of parenting.
So you believe that all parents are fairly competent?
BTW, Jack, my in-laws had that very same “idol worshippers” talk with my husband once upon a time when we were dating. It’s such a ridiculous bastardization of my religion that I merely laughed when he told me.
“BTW, Jack, my in-laws had that very same “idol worshippers” talk with my husband once upon a time when we were dating. It’s such a ridiculous bastardization of my religion that I merely laughed when he told me.”
Lol, that’s not very polite of them. I hope they eventually chilled out and were more accepting. I do think it could be hurtful for a small child to be told such things though, especially if it were a class dominated by parents raised in those churches who don’t believe Catholics are Christian. I think it’s unfair to expect a young child to defend their parents religious/choice of romantic partners/dietary choices/whatever, especially if they are in a minority. But I get what you’re saying, kids do talk about everything, and usually it’s not a big deal. I just worry about kids getting alienated and treated badly.
So you believe that all parents are fairly competent?
About as much as all teachers are.
*sigh*
Prax -
So you believe that all parents are fairly competent?
Yes, my in-laws ultimately mellowed out. Whether or not they respect my faith, they have at least enough respect for my belief that they don’t cause it to be an issue, generally.
I know that I would want to know if my son had something to say that hurt the feelings of his classmate. I would want to have a clear discussion with him about what it is that I believe and also about what is okay and what is not okay to say. So yes, I think that our teachers have a certain level of responsibility in addressing unkindness and bullying and in talking to the parents about it. I also think that the teachers and schools need to start expecting the parents to step up and fill their roles of responsibility… something that seems to be severely lacking in our public schools.
Instead the attitude is, “Oh, well, Suzie’s parents aren’t teaching her this at home. We’ll have to alter our expectations to meet that discrepancy.” What other business reacts like that? If your kid won’t stop running in the restaurant I manage, I’m going to say something to you, and if you don’t do anything to stop it, I’m going to ask you to leave. Because you are risking the safety of your child and my servers. How much more so are we risking the education of our children by pandering to the worst parents in the classroom and therefore creating a generation of parents who just meet the standard of the worst? Blech.
Ex-GOP says:
September 2, 2013 at 2:19 pm
Del - Sure, if that’s what you think, that’s what you think. You can make up the motives of anybody you want and let that be your guiding platform. It’s a fun little game – I’ll go next. I think the GOP establishment hates black people and are going to work the laws so that they are massively suppressed when it comes to voting.
This sounds an awful lot like the one where Republicans want to take away all the contraceptions and birth controls.
The big difference is that Obama is a particular guy with a track record of disingenuous speech and actions and a real credibility gap with America. He does not do what he implies and promises — Transparent government? Fairness? Freedom? Hope? And end to torture and executions? Restoration of the Constitution? We have to fight harder for these things now than before he was in office.
“Republicans” are a spectrum of like-minded people whom you are slandered with all sorts of nefarious intentions. You are being intolerant toward a third of the nation, Ex-.
There is little difference between Democrats and Republicans.
“So you believe all parents are fairly competent?”
Competent at what? Keeping their children alive? Raising their children to be productive citizens? Ensuring that their children share their values? Keeping their children under control? Raising their children to become saints? Indoctrinating their children in the GOP/Dem agenda?
Lrning -
Competent at telling kids are things to watch for in regards to sexual abuse. The conversation earlier was in regards to whether or not kindergartners should be told about private body parts and telling adults if they have been abused.
My contention is that there are too many parents that don’t talk about these things, and it is appropriate for schools to do so. Others believe that all parents are competent and that these conversations shouldn’t take place in school.
Del
1/3, but dropping by the day thankfully!
I still think your earlier statement was without merit, but again, with the amount of information people make up for themselves to believe, you just run with whatever makes you comfortable.
Praxedes says:
September 2, 2013 at 7:17 pm
So you believe that all parents are fairly competent? About as much as all teachers are.
======================================
YIKES!
Parents have the natural right to care for their children and see to their education. They are naturally motivated by love for their own children. This right is sacred and should not be interfered with — especially by busybodies who have no right to judge whether the parents are “competent.”
Teachers are professional persons who assist the parents in the parents’ duty to education the child. Teachers do not love the children, and teachers are not able to provide genuine “education.” However, teachers are helpful in filling the kids with “information” — facts & stuff — which can be an aid to authentic education.
[Seen this way, perhaps you can see why coaches are often the most effective professional teachers. Coaches are in the best position to teach heart & ethics, teamwork, graciousness and humility, and other moral lessons that are pillars of our culture. ]
Education is about handing down our culture — teaching right and wrong, and those social skills that will develop a child into a happy adult. Morality-based sex education is critical to life-long happiness. Preparing a child for a life-long marriage and family is the loving thing to do.
Information is useful in training a child to be a useful employee and get a job with a corporate employer. This is why the public school system is focused on training people to show up on time, sit in one spot, and do boring tasks without complaining. Birth control was first promoted as a way to reduce their workers’ family sizes, and corporations could pay their employees less money as a “living wage.”
Funny Del – I’ve made parts of that argument in regards to not having graphic abortion signs in public – interfering with the right of parents to parent…and have been strongly rebuked on this board!
Oh. I never would have guessed, since your examples of incompetence had nothing at all to do with sexual abuse.
Should schools instruct all children between 5-8 yrs old in what constitutes sexual abuse and what to do if they are abused? No. Not by a long shot. It is the responsibility of ADULTS to protect children from abuse. It is not the responsibility of young children to keep themselves safe. And in fact, many young children will not be able to keep themselves safe or report the incident even if armed with the knowledge Obama seems to want public schools to instruct young children on since it’s “the right thing to do”. Should parents privately be having these discussions with their children when they deem they are ready? Of course. Should the school take over this responsibility if the parents don’t do it/don’t do it right? No.
All ADULTS should be educated on the ways of child abusers, what to look for, signs of risk, signs of abuse, situations that are likely to lead to abuse, etc. ADULTS should be ready, willing, and armed with the knowledge necessary to protect all the children around them. This is the approach that the Catholic Church is taking in my area (and maybe everywhere, I don’t know) and it seems incredibly wise to me.
Ex-GOP says:
September 2, 2013 at 8:07 pm
Del1/3, but dropping by the day thankfully!I still think your earlier statement was without merit, but again, with the amount of information people make up for themselves to believe, you just run with whatever makes you comfortable.
Meh. There is little difference between Democrats and Republicans. Democrats support the killing of a million children each year. Republicans tolerate the killing of a million children each year. They both want to borrow more and overspend; they only disagree on how fast we should hurtle toward oblivion.
Only a fool expects our salvation to come from Washington. Only a fool places his hope in a Party. (Yes… There are a lot of fools out there. I’m not afraid to tell them that.)
Obama is a particular guy with a specific resume and history. If we don’t trust him, it is because he has earned our mistrust.
Or do you mean that your mistrust of Mr. G.W. Bush was based on fantasies that you made up in your head?
Ex-GOP says:
September 2, 2013 at 8:13 pm
Funny Del – I’ve made parts of that argument in regards to not having graphic abortion signs in public – interfering with the right of parents to parent…and have been strongly rebuked on this board!
I didn’t see that. I don’t know how you could make such an argument about signs.
Compulsory public education is indoctrination by the latest government-sponsored agenda, and often it does not serve the parents’ duty to educated their children. It tends to undermine and contradict the parents.
Sidewalk signs…. I can’t see how those contradict parental rights. Signs are information, and easily ignored. Kids are bombarded with constant advertising, and no one complains that this denies the rights of parents.
“. It is the responsibility of ADULTS to protect children from abuse. It is not the responsibility of young children to keep themselves safe. And in fact, many young children will not be able to keep themselves safe or report the incident even if armed with the knowledge Obama seems to want public schools to instruct young children on since it’s “the right thing to do”.”
Well of course it’s not the small child’s responsibility to keep themselves safe, but I do think that children being informed of what sexual abuse is, and how to know if someone is doing it to you, could possibly result in children coming forward with what happened to them. How are they supposed to know it’s wrong for people to do that to them if no one tells them?
“Should parents privately be having these discussions with their children when they deem they are ready? Of course. Should the school take over this responsibility if the parents don’t do it/don’t do it right? No.”
But I don’t see why not. Incest is really common, and that’s a family problem. If a child’s being abused by a parent/sibling/other family member, of course the family isn’t explaining why it’s okay for the child to not want this to happen, and why it’s not right for it to happen, and that they are allowed to tell the guidance counselor or another adult if no one in the family will help. That’s not blaming the kid (obviously I agree that adults that work with children should be educated in how to recognize and prevent sexual abuse), that’s just giving them tools that might help them if they need it. I don’t understand why you think that’s wrong if a public school does so.
Jack, I have older children and I’ve seen firsthand the methods used by public schools to instruct children in sensitive topics. No thank you. These topics are handled in a whole-classroom setting, mixed sex these days, without regard for how individual children may be processing the information and no privacy for them to speak or ask if the information brings up questions. No thank you. 1000 times no.
Do you have any information, studies, experience, that suggests that instructing young children in what constitutes abuse and to tell an adult actually results in children being protected and a greater incidence of reporting?
When I said ALL adults should be educated on the ways of abusers, I meant it. Not just adults that work with children. ALL adults. If every adult was aware and alert to the red flags of abusers, children would be far better off than they are now.
YIKES!
I was being sarcastic. I totally agree with your last post, Del.
Some may recall my story from last year when my teen mentioned to his PE teacher that he was feeling down. The teacher told the counselor (no call to me from either teacher or counselor). The counselor met with my son several times (no call to me). I met with the counselor at PT conferences and told her I wanted to be notified if she planned to talk with my son again. She did track my son down in the hallway again and wanted him to join a group (again without contacting me in spite of me telling her to) for anxious/depressed teens. I emailed this counselor and told her that she may care for students but she did not love my son like I did. I don’t know that this woman even so much cares for the students as wants to be in control of them.
This same counselor just emailed all parents that if their teen wants to change their elective classes the first week of school, they must first get a signature from a parent AND the teacher whose class they want to drop giving them permission to drop the class. Last year a parent signature was sufficient to make a course change.
I’ve made parts of that argument in regards to not having graphic abortion signs in public – interfering with the right of parents to parent
Maybe the public schools could address this during health class. Teachers could explain to the little students who is in the graphic photos and how they got there. Also, explain what party supports putting these babies in this position and explain that the teachers’ unions support this barbaric practice.
Teachers are competent enough to do this, doncha think?
“Jack, I have older children and I’ve seen firsthand the methods used by public schools to instruct children in sensitive topics. No thank you. These topics are handled in a whole-classroom setting, mixed sex these days, without regard for how individual children may be processing the information and no privacy for them to speak or ask if the information brings up questions.”
What if they did it in more private environments? Small groups of one sex (though I worry about boys being abused by men not feeling able to talk to a man)? Maybe even one on one with the school nurse or something? Idk, would the way that the information is told make a difference?
“Do you have any information, studies, experience, that suggests that instructing young children in what constitutes abuse and to tell an adult actually results in children being protected and a greater incidence of reporting?”
No actually, do you have any to the contrary? I do know that kids in incestuous situations may have literally no one to tell except for the school though, so I was thinking it might make them feel safer if they are told at school “if this is happening you can tell someone” and maybe give them an example of who to tell (school nurse or counselor maybe?). What are you supposed to do if it’s your parent who’s abusing you? No one in your family is likely to care. And if your abuser is your parent you might not even know he isn’t allowed to do whatever he wants.
“When I said ALL adults should be educated on the ways of abusers, I meant it. Not just adults that work with children. ALL adults. If every adult was aware and alert to the red flags of abusers, children would be far better off than they are now.”
No argument there.
Incest is really common
How common?
“This is the approach that the Catholic Church is taking in my area (and maybe everywhere, I don’t know) and it seems incredibly wise to me.”
Oh, well – if the Catholics are leading the charge on sex education and abuse, then none of us have anything to worry about!
I meant common as far as sexual abusers go, I’ve read that about 30% of sexual abuse cases have a family member as the perpetrator, and an additional percentage have a family friend or acquaintance. http://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/pages/child-sexual-abuse.asp
Some people estimate the percentage of sexual abuse cases that are committed by family members even higher than that.
“Wait, so in like the sixties before gay advocate groups were prevalent, two guys could hold hands walking down the street and everyone would be cool with that? I’m gonna go with “no way” on that one.”
The US has always been strange about this but in lots of other cultures this was, or still is, pretty normal. My sister’s husband is Slovenian but he studied here in the US at West Point and he had a very, very hard time initially parsing out and reacting to the differences in how American men behave towards each other versus he and his old friends back home.
Also I worked for a Korean company for several years in my mid-20s and it was absolutely not uncommon for the guys to hold hands or even curl up together for naps. I swear, we had a green room in our theater and more than once I walked in between shows on a few guys sharing the couch and napping together. I asked one time about this cultural difference and they said that they thought it was sad that American men can’t be affectionate with each other. I said that it’s because American men are scared of being called gay and they said that that explained it because “there are no gay Koreans so no one is scared of being called gay.” Obviously it’s a hugely inaccurate statement (though one I heard many times over those few years from many different people) but I thought it did speak to some extent to the reality that men, at least, are so uncomfortable at the idea of being thought gay that it may affect their platonic relationships – I mean specifically my co-workers mentioning that the lack of homosexuals in their country left them “free” to be affectionate with each other.
““• Both boys and girls have body parts that feel good when touched.” I think kids have figured out this one on their own bodies by five, at least my five year old has. I do agree I don’t see it necessary to talk about in class though, unless it’s part of a sexual abuse awareness curriculum (if someone touches you here, even if it feels good it isn’t your fault and you need to tell a trusted adult, etc).”
lol Jack – the 4-year old I help parent has gotten into a phase where he frequently whines to me that “it keeps growing, it won’t stop growing!” We have talked a fair amount about how touching it can make it grow so if he is bothered when it grows he should remember not to touch it a lot, but he is young enough that he forgets and touches it because it feels good, and then he gets distraught all over again. Honestly, I could see him interpreting a good touch/bad touch lesson as a rebuke or a message that he is bad-touching himself; it’s a tricky and nuanced subject to discuss with kids because it’s all so wildly subjective to the kid himself. I remember that when I was a kid we had the cartoon video with the cat who had the tail that everyone wanted to pet, but the cat didn’t want anyone touching his tail even though it didn’t bother him when he touched his own tail. etc. It’s a tough thing to approach without upsetting somebody in some way.
(The 7-year old older brother, by contrast, is always quick to say, “My penis grows sometimes too. It goes back to normal after a while. It’s fine.” lol.)
“he US has always been strange about this but in lots of other cultures this was, or still is, pretty normal.”
Yeah I was only talking about the US. According to older men I know they are all creeped out when men touch each other in any way other than an awkward half hug at a funeral or a firm hand shake, and in their day that wasn’t acceptable or something like that. In a lot of Latin cultures men are more touchy than American men are too, there’s less of a personal space rule in general in some countries.
“Honestly, I could see him interpreting a good touch/bad touch lesson as a rebuke or a message that he is bad-touching himself; it’s a tricky and nuanced subject to discuss with kids because it’s all so wildly subjective to the kid himself.”
Yeah, you have to be careful about that stuff. My kid knows that as long as he’s in private it’s okay to touch his own body, but he knows that other people shouldn’t be doing anything like that to him, no matter what it feels like. I just worry because often sexual abusers will use natural body reactions like pleasure or arousal to shame the child (“see, you want me to do that otherwise it wouldn’t feel good”), and I want my kids to know that they don’t have to be ashamed or worried if something like that happens, they can always tell me.
Thanks for the stats, Jack!
Oh, well – if the Catholics are leading the charge on sex education and abuse, then none of us have anything to worry about
Tell me why something like this this okay to say? Insert the word ‘Jews’ or ‘blacks’ or ‘women’ or ‘gays’ or ‘Methodists’ for the word ‘Catholics’ in the sentence above and reread the sentence. And then someone ‘likes’ his Catholicphobic comment yet too.
Why wouldn’t you be thankful that some group, any group, is taking the lead to prevent child abuse? I am and I wouldn’t care what group took the lead. Your hatred of Catholics is peaking through, Ex-GOP.
I don’t have a hatred for catholics – just the other day I was mentioning on this board how much respect I have for many of them.
I just don’t think, of all groups, given their recent history, that the catholic church leading the charge on teaching kids about sexual abuse – that this is the best fit. I’d say they should keep learning before leading. That’s it.
The Catholic abuse scandals were definitely the ones the media concentrate on the most, but there simply wasn’t any more abuse in the Catholic church than in the general population and other organizations involving children (including many non-Catholic churches). It just got a lot more media attention for many different reasons.
Stats to back that up Jack, or just a gut feeling?
Also, any other organizations with the scope of cover up that we saw with the catholic church?
Why can’t we just teach our kids to be nice? Do they really have to go through diversity training in kindergarten? My kids that age are the most accepting people possible, and we don’t talk about the various groups often targeted. We would of course if the need arises. I know they notice differences among their classmates, but they literally don’t care.
Making a big deal about differences makes them into a big deal. Let’s all categorize ourselves! This person is too fat, this one is ugly, that one sucks at sports. And you know what, kids? Some people make fun of them for it. But don’t you do that. Don’t call them things like Fatty Patty or Clumsy Clown, ok?
Well, it would be pretty much impossible for non-Catholic churches to have the amount of cover-up the Catholic Church did, because non-Catholic churches simply aren’t as centralized and don’t have the hierarchy that the CC does. I mean, Baptists kinda get together at conferences I guess (some of them do, at least), but it seems like Protestant churches operate more independently than Catholic churches to. So, I suppose it’s likely that one Protestant church could hide an abuse case (and that has happened), but you can’t really have the huge cover-up.
I can’t find the stats I read like six months ago, I found this article: http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/0405/p01s01-ussc.html/%28page%29/2
Also, I’ll link in another comment (so my comment doesn’t get spam-blocked), that 4% of priests were accused of sexual misconduct, which is less than estimates for the general population of sexually abusive men.
I’m not really “defending” the CC, because there were definitely abuses. But abuse happens everywhere, and people seem to act like it’s a Catholic problem rather than an everywhere problem. And I was abused by non-Catholics in a non-Catholic church, so there’s that.
ExGOP, are you reading comprehension impaired? Where did I say the Catholic Church is teaching children about sexual abuse? They are teaching ADULTS how to recognize abusers in order to PROTECT children. Try again.
Lrning -
Thanks for the clarification Lrning – I hope their first class is – don’t cover it up.
Regardless, I don’t see any issues with kindergartners being told that they have private parts and if somebody touches them, that it isn’t right. Going back to the start of this entire thread, the mere posting of the original quote seems to imply that this is the hands-down, wrong thing to do. I don’t see it that way.
That’s nice that you have the knowledge to give them advice on the classes. How many classes have you taken on recognizing abuse and ways to protect children?
Zero – though our church does have classes for those who work with kids. I do tech stuff for service.
Here’s the John Jay report: http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2011_05_18_John_Jay_Causes_and_Context_Report.pdf
“How many classes have you taken on recognizing abuse and ways to protect children?”
But most public school teachers, not Ex-GOP, have been trained about child abuse and mandatory reporting (maybe not as much as they should be). I get your issue that you don’t like how sexual abuse awareness is taught, but you don’t think that schools should be doing any type of awareness or teaching about these things. You never answered my one comment to you at 9:06pm and I was curious.
What % of public school teachers are abusers, Jack? Why should I want this incredibly important and sensitive topic covered in a public school curriculum, perhaps taught to my child by an abuser? We’re talking about classroom curriculum here. Not whether a teacher that suspects potential abuse should communicate to a child that they have support. Classroom curriculum that is expected to be taught to all children, regardless of their individual situations. Why should that be something I desire?
Actually that’s a good point, the public school system does have a problem with abusers. Maybe only females should be allowed to teach the subject, seeing as they are much less likely to be sexual abusers.
I’m not thinking of kids like yours, really, I’m thinking of kids who don’t have parents like you. Ones that don’t care about what happens to them or are possibly the abusers themselves, or covering up for the abusers. I really want those kids to be reached. I want them to know that it’s okay to try and get help. You think that if people are trained to recognize abuse better, those kids are more likely to be helped?
JDC
Fault aside, would it be a good idea to avoid parenting in a way that increases the probability of suicide?
Well, yeah. Of course. But you can’t always tell what that is. You can’t just say, “Do whatever. I don’t care.” Guidance goes with support.
Now back to the comments. Oofah!
“Well, yeah. Of course. But you can’t always tell what that is. You can’t just say, “Do whatever. I don’t care.” Guidance goes with support.”
Fair enough.
Yes I do, Jack. I think every child and every abuser has someone like me in their life, in some capacity. A neighbor, teacher, family friend, relative, doctor, coach, activity leader, coworker… Someone that cares about children and would risk being wrong in order to protect a child, if only they knew what to look for. And that’s why I feel strongly that every adult, not just those that work with children, should be trained. Every adult. Every abused child would then have many adults in their life that could recognize the signs. Every abuser would have multiple adults in their life that could recognize the traits and red flag behaviors. Many abusers have multiple victims so to me, recognizing and stopping abusers is key to protecting children.
Well I don’t share your opinion that every child has people like you in their life, but I’m probably just thinking correctly. I just don’t see how it would be bad if kids were told it’s not their fault and they are allowed to find someone to tell, no matter what their abuser dad/mom/sibling/whatever tells them. I do see where you’re coming from.
“I’m not thinking of kids like yours, really, I’m thinking of kids who don’t have parents like you.”
Most people are not really thinking about kids like ours in the public schools. That’s a serious problem. I don’t know what the answer is because I do care about those kids with little parental involvement, or worse. Honestly, my kids go to private school.
*just thinking incorrectly, in my last comment. Sorry about they typo Lrning, lol it makes my comment look confusing.
Maybe I have an over active imagination, but I think it would be awful for a child to learn that the scary “secret” they learned from their uncle is actually wrong and abuse in a classroom in front of all their classmates. And that @$/?& uncle probably knows hundreds of other adults and dozens quite well, who if trained to recognize the signs of an abuser could save that child and who knows how many more.
I don’t know Lrning. I do know that people will cover up and ignore abuse if it happens in a family, they see it as a “family problem” and don’t want to get involved, or they don’t want to upset the parents or step on any toes.
I think you have a point that it might be scary for a kid to learn that what’s happening is abuse in a class full of peers. I just can’t stand the thought of kids being abused by their parents and no one doing anything and the kid not knowing that it’s okay to tell.
Lrning ~ Do you have any references (websites) you would recommend? I still have deep regrets about not recognizing an abusively neglectful situation which resulted in my daughter’s kindergarten friend being killed in a fire. (She and her brothers were locked in a bedroom while their mom went to work, when an electrical fire started). She seemed pretty hungry when she was at our house, but so do my kids like almost hourly.
That’s really, really sad Lifejoy.
LifeJoy, I get my continuing education through Virtus.org. But I think only limited information is available there without a log in, which you get when you take the initial class. I wish I had a more helpful resource. Your daughter’s friend’s story is heartbreaking. I’m so sorry. :(
When I was in grade school, I recall that on one particular day, a police officer was invited into the classroom. That day, the teacher, and then the police officer, discussed acceptable vs unacceptable touching and places to touch. We were told about safe people to speak with if someone was touching us wrong, and the fact that no matter what, it is never the fault of the child.
I see no reason why this sort of discussion should not be permissible. I agree with Jack that some parents out there are abusive, and that even if the number of abusive parents were very very very small, we should still protect those children. I object to unnecessarily introducing children to evil in the world, but not to preventing and protecting children from that evil.
That said, I highly doubt Obama’s motives in supporting kindergarten sex ed. Teaching children about safe houses and “no touch zones” is NOT the same thing as a science-based sex ed curriculum for kindergarteners.
Lifejoy, that is terrible! I’m so sorry to hear it! :(
Thank you MaryRose. I do understand what Lrning is saying and there’s a lot of merit, and I do agree all adults have the responsibility to be educated about child abuse and what the signs are, and what to do if you suspect a child is being abused. I just think (know, actually, plenty of people were aware there was abuse going on in my childhood home and did not help) that there are children that really do have no one who cares, and it’s not wrong to let these children know that it isn’t their fault, and that they are allowed to tell a school counselor or a police officer or someone that this is going on. It might not help homeschooled kids like I was but it might help some children that don’t have anyone else who cares.
Honestly, I really think that it is a SUPER sensitive subject which should be addressed with multiple adults present, for accountability, but also to reinforce the validity of what is being said for the children. I feel like having a police officer there was the right move for my classroom, because it really hammered in that the police are there to help you and protect you, and that people do care.
To be fair, I wasn’t being abused, so it was a non-issue for me. Still, I knew from VERY young about the little signs for “safe houses” and that my teachers, school counselor, parents, and the police were all people I could trust if someone was making me uncomfortable. And I think every child deserves to have that message clearly relayed.
Two things from my perspective:
The public school system has, through the policies and procedures dictated by Washington and local school boards, abandoned the idea that “boys will be boys,” and is attempting to interject itself in every little argument however small these kids have with one another. The public school system is not teaching children how to resolve differences but has become “nanny McPhee” to them.
Also, I want to go on record that I believe in sex education FROM THE PARENTS!!! One of my son’s is a kindergartner this year. I am all for teaching my boys proper names for body parts and all that but am not at the minimum comfortable with a curriculum that is not yet presented to me. I have yet to receive info on sex education in his classroom.
I think maybe we have as adults think living with kids (familial) is not an education. While it is not in any sense formal education, we all learn (teaching us adults are our children). We might re-learn things like non-judgement, innocence, fairness, the value of truth, genuine affection, forgiveness, living and celebrating life (birthday parties, Christmas, Halloween, every single moment of every day we live as appreciated humans we embrace all human life) … .
Perhaps we believe kids are not involved in the abortion process. I cannot even think about the experience of living being wonderful/wondrous, if is not that of a child. Children ARE our greatest selling point and because we exclude them … we believe we are protecting them – we ain’t! MAYBE WE SHOULD TRY - 1) bring a recording of laughing children (at school-yard recess) to an abortion clinic; 2) wear baby/talcum powder when sidewalk counseling [memories are attached most strongly to smell.]
Oh yeh, there’s sex too … [wonder about what kindergarten kids teach us adults re. relationships?]
I just emailed my sons’ school’s principal and she responded that schools may be able to apply for waivers from teaching sex-ed in K. If the board of ed grants this process, the principal will pursue that. Suddenly my day looks brighter.
MaryRose: “Still, I knew from VERY young about the little signs for “safe houses” and that my teachers, school counselor, parents, and the police were all people I could trust if someone was making me uncomfortable. “And I think every child deserves to have that message clearly relayed.”
I do too, just that incorporating this message into a sex ed curriculum is not necessary. Public schools already have a health component and thus this would be an appropriate forum for that message. Chicago Board of Ed went beyond that message in it’s mandate…
and I also believe a lot of parents simply aren’t competent enough.
And there it is — another member of the “educated” elite who believes that many of you parents are just not competent enough. Wouldn’t want you to get too big for your britches and think that you are actually the parent with parental rights or something. LOL
And to any business owners out there reading this, don’t forget, “You didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.”
I agree, Prax. Many liberals are in theory big supporters of public education, but send their kids to private schools — you know — they are good enough for thee but not for me! The schools here in Philly are terrible and the situation is the same in most big cities. I’m not saying its just the teachers, it’s a combination of things, but if I had a young child, I would never send them to Philly public schools. They graduate kids that are functionally illiterate, and we expect them to be trusted with teaching such a sensitive subject as sex education? Give me a break!
When I was pregnant with my second my oldest was 5. Anyone on here who knows him from what I post on facebook knows he is a very inquisitive child and uses a lot of big words and likes to discuss topics most kids would be clueless about (He tried to discuss Libya in pre-k and his teacher was astounded).
Anyhow, I have always taught him the correct names for his body parts and taught him that they are good and nothing to be ashamed of but that they are private and belong to him and not to be shared publicly. I feel there is no need for a 5 year old boy to know that girls have clitorises.
That being said my son was full of questions about his baby brother growing in my womb. He knew basics because we are a pro-life family. But he wanted to know how his brother began. We explained sperm and egg but then he wanted to know how the sperm got to the egg. How did Daddy get the sperm to my egg? It is very delicate because we want to answer his questions without being titillating.
So we bought 2 books that were great. “The Story of Me” and “Before I was Born” They explain sex discreetly and from a God-centered approach. I think too many Christians, at least those I grew up with, treated the topic of sex with embarrassment and that it was “dirty”. I want my sons to know sex is AWESOME and GOOD And will be a healthy, wonderful part of their lives if enjoyed the way God intended.
I don’t want teachers who may not share the same values as me (such as teachers living with a lover or gay teachers) explaining sex to my sons. My sons need to feel comfortable coming to their father and I for information and knowing we will always be honest with them. Kids are going to learn about sex one way or another. I don’t want them to learn society’s view of sex–that it is cheap, that it is something to do for recreation and that you can dispose of any children that result.
My son goes to Christian school so I’d be slightly more comfortable with him having “sex ed” there but even then it does nothing to address the fact that not all kids are ready for the kind of information that my husband and I have already given our son.
“I feel there is no need for a 5 year old boy to know that girls have clitorises.”
Lol if the second baby was a girl instead of a boy, you’d have to explain the basics of girl parts when he asks eleventy billion questions while you’re changing her diaper. “Why doesn’t she have a penis, Daddy?” “Are girls mad they don’t have a penis?” ”Will she grow one later?” “Does mommy have a vagina like her or a penis like me and you?” and on and on and on. But no, mine doesn’t know girls have clitorises and I see no reason he needs to know for a while.
Sydney I miss getting updates on your kid btw. How’s he doing now? I think him and my son would get along, they’d probably discuss interventions in Syria or something.
Ha Jack! I think the biggest reason I would never tell my son that girls have clitorises is that he is a playground educator. He figured out pretty young that Santa Claus was bunk despite my husband trying to convince him otherwise. He then proceeded to let all his little friends know. I am amazed their parents didn’t come after us with pitchforks!
When he learned the word penis we were at a restaurant and the waitress turned to my son who was 2 at the time and said “And what would you like young man?” My son got the most devilish grin on his face and then yelled at the top of his lungs “I would like…PENIS!!!!” and all the diners in the restaurant turned and stared. Ha ha ha. We still laugh over that. Little stinker.
You need to hop back on facebook Jack! Endless debates and good times. :-)
Lol! I love that kid. Seriously, he’s hilarious. I can just see him informing all the kids about clitorises. That would totally get the pitchforks out.
My son loves to embarrass me too. He went through a phase, when his sister was about one and he was well-versed in the differences in male and female genitalia, where he informed everyone he met, including perfect strangers, which genitals he thought they had. I swear they do it on purpose because they think it’s funny when mom and dad blush.
It wasn’t as bad as his interest in body types phase. I never used the words “obese” or “fat” with him because I KNEW he would try to inform everyone of their body types. “Hey, you’re a big lady! That’s really cool I wish my mom were a big lady! She was big when my sissy was in her tummy!” (his mother was not remotely amused at that one) “Hey, why are you so short? Most boys aren’t so short when they are grown up!” Gawd that one was awful. “Kid, STOP! I’m so sorry, perfect stranger.”
Please beware parents the comprehensive sex education bills in almost every state are part of the SEICUS curriculum being pushed endorsed, and promoted by Planned Parenthood, NARAL and LGBT activist. Illinois finally pushed the comprehensive sex ed bill through this past year after trying for years. PP, NARAL and the SEICUS folks lobbied with the pro-abort forces for this bill. Pro-life people saw PP, NARAL, radical LGBT activist, and ACLU meeting together, speaking at the legislative hearings for this bill and lobbying for this bill. When an actual copy of the SEICUS curriculum guidelines and the CPS guidelines (which was the same pretty much the same) were shown to the state reps and state senators some were against the new sex ed bill but with the arm-twisting, political wrangling and deal cutting of the Democratic party leaders they backed down and finally they pushed the bill through this year and the governor just signed it into law. Most of the parents throughout the state are totally unaware of what their kids are going to learn K-12 about sex. It is a lot more than any anti-bullying campaign let me tell you. I was able to see the SEICUS and the CPS curriculums. Only 5% of these “approved” curriculums mention abstinence, they call showering together and mutual mast——-tion abstinence. Beware parents. You must find out what is being taught in your child’s schools and what type of mindset is the person who is going to teach it. Most states except Massachusetts (maybe now Ca.) you can opt your child out of this indoctrination. Do you have any idea how much money PP is out to make by the passage of this bill? They have a financial interest in selling sexual activity to your kids, they will make millions on contraceptives, shots, pills, STD testing and treatment, IUDs and when the contraceptives fail they will make more on take-home abortion pills and surgical abortions as well. Please do NOT let PP and their endorsed sex ed anywhere near your child or your child’s school. I know parents who have decided to homeschool because of this and more will probably do so if they can financially do so.
So you believe that all parents are fairly competent?
I am of the opinion that this is the wrong question to ask. I have proposed on a different thread that we as a society have abidcated the responsibility of raising children to the public school system. Schools now not only educate our children but raise them in their own liberal notions of what a person is. Schools have become the “Nanny McPhee.” A boy and one of my sons had a disagreement last school year, not physical but involving the word “stupid” used by both in reference to one another (such controversy heh). Instead of calling me or my wife, the assistant principal stepped in and without allowing the two 3rd graders to talk to one another, “lectured” both extensively and separately . Later on when I was notified at the end of the school day that my son used the word “stupid” (again, such controversy, heh) the assistant principal “lectured” me on bullying (something to the extent of “the bigger vs smaller in name calling” came out of that discussion).
Give me a break - two 3rd graders call one another “stupid” during recess and the public school system elevates this to a big problem?
I informed him that boys will be boys and that was it. A week later the other boy and my son were best buds again in class and outside of it and acted toward each other like nothing happend through the remainder of the school year. The school blew this out of proportion, making a problem where there was none. The dem/liberal/progressive society where words such a stupid have no place because it’s not nice.
My son got the most devilish grin on his face and then yelled at the top of his lungs “I would like…PENIS!!!!”
Oh Sydney, this literally made me laugh out loud. Your son sounds awesome.
Jack, is your son kinda like the kid from Kindergarten Cop? You might not have watched that one but there was a kid from that movie that liked to inform everyone about genitalia. I think his dad was an OB/GYN, lol.
This has been part of the PP style marketing plan for over 40 years: get kids to abandon their natural modesty, tell them their parents are against them (or merely “uncool”), and voila! Lots of new STD and abortion customers in the making.
I know this is a long thread, but bear with me:
What kind of society are we creating, in which children are encouraged to become sexually active at a very young age, THEN, are discouraged from forming a serious monogamous relationship (marriage) until they are closing in on MIDDLE AGE?!?!
How trusting can I be, in a relationship, if I’ve already got almost TWO DECADES of casual sex and heartbreak behind me?!?! Instead of teaching young people that sex is serious activity that, though fun, can lead to CHILDREN and can spread disease, no, Planned Parenthood wants them to get out there and get bitter and world-weary as soon as possible. If I’ve been through over a dozen break ups before I get married at the new socially acceptable 27 (may still be too young! I hear people lament), how warm and fuzzy can I feel about my new mate, who has also been through possibly dozens of sexual partners???!!!
Clue: Endless decades of social adolescence does not a strong society build.
Heh. My son likes to inform people about genitalia. Or literally anything else he knows. Or anything he thinks. He thinks that the world is eager to know about his sister’s dirty diapers, the rock he once found at the beach shaped like a heart (six months ago that he still likes to talk about), his parent’s divorce (and prior sex life, he still talks about how he walked in on us when he was like barely four i swear he deliberately chooses to forget), what color the sky is, and what words he thinks sound weird.
Sydney’s story reminded me of a restaurant story when my oldest was about two:
My son had to use the restroom and I was busy with his baby sister so my brother offered to take him. They were walking hand in hand through the restaurant when my son looks up at my brother and says very loudly, “Do you have to poop too Uncle Billy?”
See Thomas, and I don’t think that rhetoric helps. Are you saying conservatives are never sensitive about what subjects are talked about or what words are used? Heck, most of this thread is about sensitive parents saying what should or shouldn’t be taught.
Fact is, lots of parents have lots of hot button words/issues/values/morals/beliefs and other things that they want taught/avoided/stressed/ignored, etc…
So how should schools meet the needs of everyone? Stupid – sure – but I can throw out 15 other words that well meaning people will disagree on.
It’s a people thing – not a liberal/progressive/democrat thing.
Word number 1: Reading
Word number 2: Spelling
Word number 3: Division
Word number 4: Fractions
Word number 5: Geography
Word number 6: Current Events
Word number 7: History
Word number 8: foreign language
Word number 9: gymnasium
Word number 10: art
Word number 11: shop
Word number 12: Economics
Word number 13: Literature
Word number 14: Composition
Word number 15: Drama
Gee, it’s too bad that liberals don’t agree on any of these words, because kids need more sex ed, more sex ed, and just plain more sex ed. Why should Johnny find the capital of Alaska when he surely needs to find Jane’s clitoris?
Ninek very good post.
Why would any decent, caring, protective parent allow PP (the largest abortion provider in the entire US and the world committing over 300,000 abortions a year in the US, who assures kids that their parents don’t need to know anything about whether their child has an abortion, a procedure that could potentially kill them although the school nurse cannot give their kid even a Tylenol without parental consent, PP who has never been for any Parental Notification of any kind and refuses to report sexual predators, PP who will make potentially millions of dollars off of their kids) and their minions to have anything to do with teaching their child anything.
Ninek – I don’t know if you are talking about a different post – but in reference to Thomas, I was talking about coming up with words that people would think are offensive in some situations – so while that is a cute list, you need to read the post a bit more if you are writing in response to me.
Well, ex, maybe I want our young people to get an education that doesn’t include how to put a condom on the local pedophile.
ninek – you are arguing against absolutely nobody right now.
Well, Absolutely Nobody got elected for a second term, and though you may forget, I for one remember that after his first election, he appointed a card carrying member of Nambla to preside over school safety.
ninek – you are arguing against nobody right now.
Wait, are you talking about Jennings ninek? I still haven’t been able to find any proof he was a “nambla member”.
He’s not.
Ninek is one of the three regarding the subject:
1) a liar
2) ignorant
3) works for nambla and has the mailing list and thus, has inside information
Accusing someone of belonging to nambla or anything like that’s pretty serious thing to claim.
Ninek might have being hyperbolic. Jennings did have that one scandal where when he was a teacher he didn’t inform the parents of some gay student that he was having an affair with an adult man? The kid was of legal age in that area so it wasn’t a crime, but I think I’d be pretty annoyed if a teacher was aware of my kid having sexual relationships with older people and didn’t tell me. Still, that’s a far cry from Jennings being an abuser.
I don’t make the accusation lightly, and I don’t take his own denials as “proof” of anything.
Absolutely Nobody’s track record is making it abundantly clear that our sitting president loathes not only American adults, but our children as well. Oh, sure, I’m just a big ole meanie. Sure, ex can tuck himself into bed at night, satisfied that he has done his part to make the world safe from social conservatives. Me? I’ve got a young relative that just started school, and I am honestly afraid for the little fella, afraid in the pit of my stomach. He doesn’t know why plaid doesn’t match stripes, or why a dime is worth more than a nickel even though it’s smaller,
but Nobody thinks he needs to learn how to make pedobear happy. That’s where Nobody’s priorities are.
So I’ll just sign off: Mean Ole Lady Who Doesn’t Want the School Kids to Have Any Fun.
Wait so why do you think this guy is a pedophile, and part of nambla, or what?
Gee, it’s too bad that liberals don’t agree on any of these words, because kids need more sex ed, more sex ed, and just plain more sex ed.
Yup. First day of middle school today. Student asked the teacher what kind of fish the lone fish in a small tank was. Teacher explained it was a beta fish. She added it was a male beta and that if she put a female beta in the tank with the male “he would have sex with her but then he would kill her.” Good for a lot of laughs and giggles from the thirteen year old crowd. No question was asked about beta mating habits nor was this a biology class. This was during study hall and the teacher was going over classroom rules.
But at least the kids now know that fish have sex (spawn is so old school). hee, hee, giggle, giggle, titillate the children.
It’s gonna be a long year.
And there goes Ninek, signing off and running away instead of actually supporting what she/he says.
Okay Prax that teacher sounds like a serious weirdo.
Jack, the teenager in question confided that he was upset with himself because he was having sex at the bus station with older men. Pedo-czar merely advised him to use condoms, cause that’s surely the best advice for the minor.
But hey, y’know, ex, most Catholic priests are college educated. How about we have them volunteer to come into the public school kindergartens to teach “age appropriate” sex ed?
I see that I got some likes, so I’m not alone. But I see that not all of us are beyond putting post born children on the sacrificial altar of progressive political correctness. I guess some of you won’t mind some male and female Mary Kay LeTourno’s teaching your kids the birds and the bees. I’m sure I misspelled that.
Ex-GOP to Thomas: See Thomas, and I don’t think that rhetoric helps. Are you saying conservatives are never sensitive about what subjects are talked about or what words are used? Heck, most of this thread is about sensitive parents saying what should or shouldn’t be taught.
Here’s a newsflash for you Ex – you will never protect your child from the environmental influences because well, your child is not with you 24/7. Living in the real world is tough and I teach my boys to have thick skin. Otherwise I would have sons running to the teacher or school administrators every time some kids decided to call them stupid. So boys will be boys and eventually with our help they will grow out of some behaviors. Once my children start participating in our society, they will be exposed to all sorts of “insensitive” people. And btw, is the term stupid worst for an elementary school kid than the terms penis or clitoris? With the onset of the Chicago Public Schools mandate for sex education in kindergarten, CPS 5-year olds will now ask questions such as “hey Jenny do you have a clitoris?” instead of “hey Jenny are you stupid?”
Ex-GOP, for the love of God PICK YOUR BATTLES WISELY.
Ninek: Mary Kay Letourneau was just lonely and unfulfilled. Can’t you give her a break? LOL.
BTW, she struck a plea deal back then not to have to register as a sex offender. Talk about our prosecutorial system, heh…
I just received a flyer from my sons’ school’s principal regarding sex ed curriculum for primary CPS grades (pasted below):
Sexual health education scope and Sequence
Kindergarten – fourth grade
Kindergarten
Lesson 1: Public vs. Private – Students identify public and private body parts using medically-accurate vocabulary.
Lesson 2: Good Touch, Bad Touch – Students learn that no one is allowed to touch their private parts without permission.
Lesson 3: Secrets – Students learn strategies for telling a trusted adult about a secret that makes them scared or uncomfortable.
Lesson 4: Smart About Strangers – Students learn tips for staying safe online and in the real world.
1st grade
Lesson 1: Respecting Everyone – Students use creative drawing to show that everyone is a unique individual who deserves dignity and respect.
Lesson 2: Families – Students identify diverse family structures and brainstorm ways to treat all families with respect.
Lesson 3: Families Change – Students explore ways a family can change and how to handle feelings that come with a changing family.
Lesson 4: Bullying – Students identify forms of bullying and what to do if they or a classmate is being bullied.
2nd Grade
Lesson 1: My Body – Students learn about the parts of body.
Lesson 2: All Living Things Reproduce – Students identify characteristics of all living things and study the life cycle of a frog.
Lesson 3: Gender and Identity – Students role play strategies for breaking down gender stereotypes and learn to treat all people in their community with respect.
Lesson 4: Keeping My Body Healthy – Students practice infection control strategies for staying healthy.
So what is the verdict?
The verdict? These are general statements not a complete curriculum and the scope of the lessons are unidentified. I would want to look at the actual texts, worksheets, movies, lessons before determining if I’d want my child involved.
Kindergarten Lesson 3: Secrets seems particularly incomplete to me. Children need to know how to identify a “trusted adult”. Especially since the majority of abuse is perpetrated by adults known to the victims. Children should know that NO ADULT should ever ask them to keep a secret.
2nd grade Lesson 3: based on my experience, “role play” is a term that sends up a red flag. Depending on the follow-up info, that might be a day I’d decide to observe the lesson in class, or keep my child home.
2nd grade Lesson 4: Given this is all in the context of “Sexual Health Education” are they talking STI’s when they talk infection control? To 7 & 8 year olds? Yikes. Preventing colds and flu by washing hands frequently and sneezing into your elbow has nothing to do with sexual health.
We will have a meeting to discuss the extent of this curriculum beyond the categories so I agree with you Lrning. I just emailed the principal if she thinks clitoris will be discussed? I will post an update each time she communicates with me.
Wow, ninek. No offense but that’s terrible logic. “This person made an error in judgment, so he’s obviously a child rapist”. Doesn’t follow. There are plenty of idiot adults who think “they’re going to have sex anyway” and encourage condom use with teenagers, and plenty who have the bright idea that parents don’t need to know about their kids “private lives”. That doesn’t make any of these adults necessarily people who want to have sex with underage people. You can’t just run around accusing people of being pedophiles because they made other mistakes. Now, maybe Jennings shouldn’t be in charge, that’s certainly a valid thing to talk about for someone who messed up like he did (in my opinion), but accusing him of horrible and nasty things is disgusting.
I’m gonna start accusing random people of being pedophiles for doing things I disagree with. “Oh, you cheated on your wife? That totally means you want to rape little kids.” Ridiculous.
Careful Thomas. Perhaps the next communication will be a cease and desist the sexual harassment. I wouldn’t ask such a specific question thru email. I’d instead ask for the complete list of body parts that will be included in the lesson.
Jack, I am very disappointed that you would assume I’d jump to ridiculous conclusions like the example you give. I condemn Jennings by his very own words. Mocking me is fine, I’m an adult, but who is looking out for my little relative who just started school? Who’s going to see that he is safe? Who?
This thread is getting wilder (and more irrelevant) because we make some poor initial assumptions. Kids live in a whole different ‘space’ than adults. Are adults even remotely happy? And yet we force our-adult views about what intimacy means on little, happy ones. We (adults) pervert the world … calling it unsafe!
We lecture on end yet think nothing of teaching kids (we call them soldiers) to blow-up other people. After all, this is the way to treat foreigners. Kids will play together. So why do we feel they need protection? We must indoctrinate them-kids to fear.
I appreciate you looking out for me Lrning. Below is the full text of my email to the principal.
“I have no objection to this curriculum for kindergarten. I think its appropriate within limits (does a 5 year-old need to know the term clitoris?) Would that knowledge lead the 5 year-olds to act out, that is the more pertinent question.”
I do not think its vulgar or inappropriate but judge for yourself and let me know?
I’m not mocking you, ninek, or at least I’m not trying to. I’m sorry if I hurt your feelings. I was being hyperbolic because I think it’s wrong to accuse people of being certain things with no proof.
What did he say exactly that makes you condemn him? What words?
I hope your nephew has parents, other family members, decent teachers, or other adults to keep him safe.
Wow. Stick a fork in me: I’m done.
Thomas -
I get it now – you are a helicopter parent – hover over the school and make sure they only teach the lessons you want, exactly how you want, and allow your kids to say what they want, and don’t intervene unless you want it or alert you unless you want it.
I’ve seen your type. Good luck with that!
Am I the only person who’s terribly confused at how this conversation went?
Wow. Ex-GOP, you’re amazing. Being able to identify Thomas’ parenting style based on so little information and all. Must be awesome being you. Now that you’ve got him all wrapped up with the appropriate label, you can rest easy.
Lrning -
I do feel better because I think I understand where he’s coming from now – and while I don’t agree, I understand why he feels that way.
Love,
Amazing Ex-GOP
That’s the problem with labels. You think you understand him now that you’ve stuck a label you understand on him. Forget real understanding. Whatever makes you feel better, I guess.
Lrning -
I find it more than massively ironic to be lectured from a right winger on this board regarding the use of labels – Jack can attest to the names/labels that have been flung at him and me for some of our views – and while I don’t keep a list to know if you are one of them or not – I’m darn sure you’ve never posted a message like this in defense of me. 100% sure.
1000% sure.
“Am I the only person who’s terribly confused at how this conversation went?”
Nope. There are a couple threads going on here that feel like this classic Simpsons moment to me: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCG5jphUaVA
“That’s it! You people have stood in my way long enough! I’m going to clown college!”
Wow, there really is a Simpson’s quote for every possible situation.
“lectured from a right winger“
Hahahahahaha! Oh yes, labels do seem to be a problem for you.
“Wow, there really is a Simpson’s quote for every possible situation. ”
Yes. And when I die, I want to be remembered as the person who always had the correct one ready.
Ex-GOP: I am not certain what you mean by helicopter parent? Is it that I transport my boys everywhere nowadays? LOL.
I am involved in my sons’ school’s academic and social curricula and that what a parent needs to do. It is precisely because parents have abdicated the responsibility of raising their children to the public school system – we need to be that more vigilant on how the system is handling it. No-one hovers over anybody. You seem to chastise me for asking our principal if my five-year old will learn the term clitoris. Is that hovering or is it questioning the validity of imparting this term on a five-year old?
Seriously: you seem to be one of these liberals who think that the PC movement is the best thing since sliced bread; that seems not to understand that in parenting sometimes it pays to sweat the small stuff (did you read my comment where I advised you to choose between “stupid” and “clitoris?”); that seems to think that if we just hold hands and sing “Kumbaya” everything will be honky-dory. GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!!
Now I get it: you are one of the parents who fully abdicated the responsibility of raising kids to the public school system and who speaks against any checks and balances. Your kids must be so perfect in every way.
I would leave the state. That’s disarming the community from protecting themselves from the child predators who hold positions of authority within their ranks,a nd 6% of every institution is composed of such.
I disagree CityOfAngels. One of my first supervisors imparted a very wise lesson on me years ago. At any level we have the ability to choose three venues:
– be a leader
– be a follower
– or if neither works, get the hell out.
If I leave the state that has been my home for the past 30 years, I will forfeit any tangible benefit from changes within. Are you advocating that anytime something undesirable happends, we just run away? I choose to be active in building my community a better place through my professional as well as auxillary responsibilities. Change is a local phenomenon. And besides, if I would leave the state that would be one less voice against child predators…