Abortion industry vs. the hope that “all men are saved”
by Carder
Think of all not just the actual abortionists and their immediate staffs, but the manufacturers of the killing instruments, the builders of the abortion chambers, the landlords who own the building, the deathscorts, the politicians who support this either through commission or omission, the people who are the government workers who support these politicians, the Catholic clergy who don’t speak up, the Catholic clergy who actually support it.
Think of ALL of them and many more .. the people who vote these evil people into office, the people who make the advertisements for Planned Parenthood, the business that print up their posters, who maintain their websites, think of ALL of them and then ask yourself – do we REALLY have a REASONABLE hope that all men are saved?
Just a couple of seconds reflecting on the question proves its utter stupidity. How dare Catholic clergy make this inanity sound like the norm.
~ Catholic apologist Michael Voris, tearing into a salvation theory held by certain clergy, Church Militant.TV, December 16
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Michael Voris – what do you prefer – that they be consumed by the fires of hell, or baptized with the fire of the Holy Spirit?
Some thru the water, some thru the fire, but all thru the blood of JESUS!
Being ‘born again/saved’ is a singular experience, a momentous moment in eternity. Salvation is a process in which we are transformed and conformed to the image/character of the SON of GOD (JESUS) and a son of GOD, many of whom JESUS is bringing to glory. (It’s in the ‘book’.)
When I was born again/saved,HOLY SPIRIT baptized me into the body of Christ.
I was saved, I am being saved and I will be saved by HIS grace.
HE alone is able to make me stand and present to HIMSELF without spot or wrinkle on ‘that day’.
I know in whom I have believed and HE is able to keep ALL that I have entrusted to HIM.
This Michael Voris fellow must be a lot of fun at parties…
Voris is not a theologian; not a priest; not the Pope; and thankfully, not God.
May not be a theologian but his theology is sound. It is not feasible that all men have avoided damnation. Obviously I wish the best for all and maybe some have had last minute conversions and confessions but that is not likely
That picture is creepy.
Michael Voris has a way of hitting the nail on the head.
He is often accused of wielding the hammer with excessive force. But the reality is that the nail still demands to be struck.
We will never rid the world of sin as long as our preachers ignore the reality of sin. And many will go to eternal damnation because our preachers refuse to talk about it.
From the Bible, St. Paul tells us that such teachers will be held responsible for what they fail to teach. Jesus also laid the same responsibility on the teachers whom He encountered.
As a Roman Catholic I was always tought from a very young age that we are responsible for each other’s salvation. Our mission is to be the light that leads others to Christ and to that end we are to promote His covenant with the world. Although each one of us is responsible for our own sins, others will be held responsible for contributing to them - so in that sense Voris hit the nail on the head.
Maybe I’m misreading this, but it doesn’t sound to me like he is saying God can’t save certain people, but that certain people obviously are not saved, and we can see that by the fruit on their tree. (Matthew 7:16-29)
I’m not Catholic, but to me he sounds dead-on in his assessment. To think that people who do such things are redeemed is just nonsense. However, that does not mean they cannot be redeemed, forgiven, set free, and transformed by the power of Christ.
I’m old-school in that I go to confession. Certain sins are not subject to absolution and I would guess that it may take the act of the Pope in certain instances. I know many who had to do quiet a bit to be absolved at some point as the priest declined to do so initially.
Paladin, can we have your input here.
I thought you were supposed to hope all men are saved? Is he saying that some people obviously aren’t saved, or that you shouldn’t hope for it? I am quite confused.
Hope without concrete deeds means nothing.
If you watch the video, he is specifically refuting the idea that almost everyone goes to Heaven. Most of the video he is using the holocaust as an obvious example, he shows a movie clip (from 2001) where the architects of the “final solution” applaud the industrial scale of their killing machine, and he points out the thousands complicit in carrying it out. He also points out how abortion is similar. Of course, as Jesus himself said, simply calling someone a fool is enough to put your soul in danger. We hope that all are saved, but evil exists, even within us.
Ah, whenever I want a bit of a pick-me-up I just watch me a bit of voris.
Reality says:
Oink, Oink!
No Del, that’s you saying those words. You can only read my words, which at no point included the words you’ve written. You cannot hear me if at some stage I did happen to say those particular words, which I haven’t. So it is all on you my friend. :-)
I never can unnderstand how realitys comments get through when they are all a bunch of gibberish….head scratch. Biggest troll on the blog.
Like the one above mine….huh?
Pro-tip to everybody: If you ignore trolls, they might just quit.
I’ve tried that JDC, it doesn’t seem to work :-)
Besides which, I’m happy to point out their errors.
I really wish Voris was a Cardinal or the Pope. We’d be a lot better off. Did you hear Francis replaced Cardinal Burke at the Vatican with ‘Wuerl The Girl” ?
http://spectator.org/articles/57167/reaping-wuerl-wind
To Jasper: We should not be so harsh on Cardinal Wuerl or Pope Francis, and we should not view this rotation to the bishop-appointing council as a rebuke to Cardinal Burke.
Sure, we’d all like to see Pelosi and Biden and their ilk excommunicated from the Catholic faith that they so boldly insult. But excommunication is a medication for sinners, urging them to repent and come back. If we had hope of Pelosi’s conversion, we should use it.
But instead, we expect that liberal media and politicos would not repent. They would accuse us of imposing our religion upon politics, and stir up even more anti-Catholic fervor. Pelosi would encourage even more confused and lukewarm Catholics to deny our faith and ignore our bishops — and our voice in the culture would be even less than it is now.
Cardinal Burke is speaking to the whole world when he says that Catholic politicians who support abortion are deserving of excommunication under canon law. But that doesn’t mean that it would be prudent to do so.
Pope Benedict had Pelosi in his office, gave her a stern rebuke in private, denied her a photo-op, and issued a press statement about the firm nature of their private discussion. That’s about as public as a private rebuke can get! But Pelosi is still cheeky enough to claim that abortion is “sacred ground” for her.
The bishops, cardinals and popes have done what they can. It is up to the Catholic laity to pray for the likes of Pelosi and Biden, and remind them constantly that they are an embarrassment to us and to Christ.
I really don’t understand why some people have such a problem with Pope Francis, he’s one of the main reasons I decided to give understanding Catholicism (and Christianity in general) a shot again instead of just giving up on it and going full blown atheist. What do his critics think he does so wrong?
We cannot KNOW where people will go in the end. However, we can judge actions. The judging of the action as good/right or bad/wrong is not saying there’s no hope for a person will, in fact, repent, or that the person is for sure going to Heaven, it’s using one’s conscience to make a decision. Which, is what we are called to do. We are called to exercise our consciences to make good, moral decisions.
Deluded Lib Pro-Lifer– It is often a “vogue” thing to blast the Catholic Church, the pope (no matter who is pope) and the Catholic Church’s teachings. It’s been happening for a very long time. As a Catholic, it makes me terribly sad because I love my faith and Pope Francis is a very gentle soul–who is, in fact, continuing B16 and JP II’s miniseries–but in his own way. He hasn’t changed the faith–there are there are things that cannot be changed and things that can (like the missal changing to be closer to the Latin translation–the meaning didn’t change, just some of the words–people freaked out about it, because, of course the media made it sound like it was a panic thing or the Church was doing something weird…when in fact, nothing really changed, just the words. But the meaning and the Mass itself remained the same). The way one pope does things may not be exactly the same as the way another pope goes about it, but it doesn’t always mean they’re doing entirely different things. JP II was loved for his openness, the way he was so approachable and insightful. When B16 was working in office under JP II he was seen as harsh, and then when he was pope the media thought he had changed or something. He hadn’t changed. His job had changed, but he was still the same man. Perception isn’t always reality.
“But excommunication is a medication for sinners, urging them to repent and come back. If we had hope of Pelosi’s conversion, we should use it.”
I would say Pelosi needs that medication more than anybody.
I disagree Chris:
We have faith that all men are saved but hope is althogether a different consideration. I think that faith/hope are very frequently confused and misunderstood.
“Deluded Lib Pro-Lifer– It is often a “vogue” thing to blast the Catholic Church, the pope (no matter who is pope) and the Catholic Church’s teachings. It’s been happening for a very long time. As a Catholic, it makes me terribly sad because I love my faith and Pope Francis is a very gentle soul–who is, in fact, continuing B16 and JP II’s miniseries–but in his own way.”
Thanks MiT. I like Pope Francis because he does pretty much exude compassion and love, you can almost literally see it. I’ve never got that sense from any public religious figure in my memory, ever. Everything he says really shows that he tries to love all people while being firm in his religious and moral beliefs. I just really like him, I think it’s really sad he gets bashed so much.
Given Jack’s comment above and what Jasper said earlier, does the fact that the new pope appears to be more popular amongst non-catholics than previous ones, and we are told he has said catholics should stop obsessing about social issues, are some catholics feeling less than comfortable or happy with him?
I may be mistaken, but as I understand it, excommunication refers to the existence of a spiritual “break” in the relationship between the person and God (and thus the Church) which is so serious that it goes beyond merely a sin. The Church merely recognizes this fact in a formal manner when someone is declared excommunicated.
The main issue with Pelosi, Kennedy, Biden, Sebelius and our own Granholm (former Gov of MI) is that their public example tends to lead other Catholics away from a relationship with God, particularly in their statements regarding abortion. Granholm actually stated in during a public appearance that as a good Catholic, she could support embryonic stem-cell research with a clear conscience. That is scandal.
Micheal Voris does have a point, but his comments could be construed as condoning the judgment of another person’s soul (or state thereof). I still support his right to say it, but if, for example, my children were listening to his comments, I would talk to them about the difference between judging a person’s actions, and judging the person.
BTW, Merry Christmas, everyone! :)
In 1913 during the Marian Apparitions of Fatima, The Blessed Mother appeared to the three children and told them, “Souls are falling into Hell like snowflakes.” Quite a mental picture for contemplation.
I believe Mr. Voris’s point is that he hopes God does not expect him to share heaven with riffraff like Nazis, Kinkos’ sales associates, abortionists, and Protestants.
This is a wee bit of tricky reflection – about who will be saved/go-to-heaven. First off, we ned to get a grasp about just what is being talked about. Heaven is not a ‘space’ that is God’s residence or home-building. It is easier to think that ‘heaven’ is another word for God, in the sense that we become one in time and space with He who is ‘all in all’. It is like entering forever Moses’ burning (without-consuming) bush on Mt. Sinai.
Secondly, I think we need reflect seriously on the relationship between Jesus and His Abba. Without doubt, I’d be all over anyone at all (in all time, because His death is sacrificial) connected with Jesus’ death. [In case you are wondering: that means, you, me, M. Voris, Fr. John Barron, our-Reality, on & on … every one of us.]
But this did not happen, did it? Instead Jesus invited a stranger who was crucified too, into His paradise; and He asked/prayed that we be forgiven. [I think Abba answered that prayer.]
The only thing and Voris does not mention is this, God’s mercy. If we think/experience mercy as INFINITE … then all is possible … a NEW LIFE & a NEW BIRTH . resurrection … of love; hope; peace; joy and LIFE.
Reality–Pope Francis didn’t say those things weren’t in important, and given the fact Pope Francis does uphold Catholic teaching and Catholic teaching says abortion is wrong, I’m sure he’s not in favor of it or changing anything the Church believes in. The media makes popular bits and pieces of what Popes say without the whole picture–and then even if they are given the whole picture, the media (and some other people) sometimes/often choose to either misunderstand, misrepresent, and/or misconstrue it, which is what you’re doing here.
You’re posing the question as if Pope Francis said to stop caring about those things entirely, which is NOT what he said. And he also didn’t say social issues had no place, he just wants the focus to be on God, which, for me, as a practicing Catholic, that makes perfect sense. Obsession can lead to “tunnel vision” which can cut God out of the equation, which is what Pope Francis does NOT want Catholics to do.
Reality, show me where Pope Francis says abortion or homosexuality are not grave sins and I will show you a Catholic who is upset with him.
I’ve looked around, MIT and truthseeker, but I cannot identify the comment that you both appear to be responding to. You have addressed your responses to me so all I can say is:
I did not say the pope said ‘those things’ weren’t important.
I did not say the pope says the catholic church’s position on abortion or anything else should change.
I did not draw any conclusions, I asked a question, using the terms appears and we are told. Therefore I haven’t misunderstood, misrepresented or misconstrued anything.
I did not pose the question as if to say he said to stop caring about ‘those things’.
I did not say he said social issues had no place.
Nor did I say he said abortion and homosexuality are not grave sins.
What I actually said was that this pope appears to be more popular with non-catholics than previous popes. This is based on what Jack had said as well as many media reports and articles.
I also said that we are told he has said catholics should stop obsessing about social issues – and you have stated something along those lines in your comment above MIT.
My question was premised on the idea that if the pope becomes popular with non-catholics, does it mean he may be dismaying some catholics.
That’s all it was.
The short answer to your question is “no it doesn’t mean that.”
Chris Arsenault asks, ”Michael Voris – what do you prefer – that they be consumed by the fires of hell, or baptized with the fire of the Holy Spirit?” That question is nonsensical, for Voris’ preferences are irrelevant, as are Arsenault’s and mine for that matter. No one is doubting God’s ability and desire to save all men. However, we have free will and some decide, via the choices they make, that they simply will not to be saved. Honoring the free will of those who choose separation from Him, God indeed will not save them. This is not a difficult concept.
Thank you for your response truthseeker. That wasn’t difficult now was it.
I’m not sure that Jasper shares your enthusiasm though, given his I really wish Voris was a Cardinal or the Pope. We’d be a lot better off. Did you hear Francis replaced Cardinal Burke at the Vatican with ‘Wuerl The Girl” ? comment.
I’m sorry I misunderstood you, Reality. What truthseeker said, then.
Thanks MIT.
Have an excellent christmas :-)
I’m guessing that Mary probably really was a teenager when she gave birth to Jesus, but wasn’t that normal for that time in history, where people didn’t live nearly as long?