Husband seeks to remove pregnant wife from life support
by Kelli
It’s hard to reach the point where you wish your wife’s body would stop….
They don’t know how long the baby was without nutrients and oxygen. But I’m aware what challenges I might face ahead.
~ Erick Munoz, who is seeking to have his pregnant wife Marlise’s life support removed in Texas, where it is illegal to do so when a patient is pregnant, as quoted by ABC News, December 23
The Munozes have a one-year-old son together (Mateo, pictured) and Marlise is in her second trimester of pregnancy with their 2nd child. Erick has stated that Marlise did not wish to be kept alive artificially, though she never signed a DNR. According to doctors, their preborn baby has a “normal heartbeat.” (Video at link.)
Dec.26, 2013 1:00 am |
Euthanasia |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I saw this on the news the other day and from what Ive read they are both paramedics. Now I am a DNR myself because I do not ever want to have a tube feeding or be on life support. I want my wishes to be granted in my living will. Idk what they can do with her being pregnant though. This is a tough one because I have worked in LTC for years and that is NOT living….its existing.
If there is no hope for recovery and this woman is brain dead then her wishes to die without life support should be granted…could they sustain her life until the baby was full term?
Oh…just read shes never signed a DNR. That could present a problem. This is where I am not on the PL team. I have taken care of people who were comatose for 15 20 years. A G tube will keep your body alive but laying in a bed for years has always seemed pointless to me. Man made the G tube and I am simply a person who doesnt believe in life support unless there is hope. My mom is also a DNR. Not pleasant to have to perform CPR on a 98 year old frail woman because the family wants her alive.
The word of the day is SONOGRAM.
The word for later might be ADOPTION, because the dad does not appear to want that baby.
Show their little boy a ultrasound of his sibling so he can talk some sense into his father.
There is no greater love than the love for YOUR child (and in this particular case an extension of love for your wife). I don’t think Mr. Munoz knows what love is. Some express love but when it truly matters in the face of a challenge, this word becomes just a sham. Easier route is always the way to go because after all its only about me, me, me…
The medical ethicist stated: “It could be a huge challenge for the fetus.” So that also means that it COULD NOT BE.
Love always has a deeper meaning Mr. Munoz. Choose life.
This is a sad story. And even with all our medical advances we somehow manage to be a culture of death. One where some people are so adverse to self-sacrifice they delude themselves into believing selfishness is actually compassion (which means co-suffering, to suffer with someone, not putting someone out of their misery).
Important info:
http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/do-you-need-an-advance-directive/
And more important info on how sneaky the culture of death can truly be:
http://www.patientsrightscouncil.org/site/polst/
“Oh…just read shes never signed a DNR. That could present a problem. This is where I am not on the PL team. I have taken care of people who were comatose for 15 20 years. A G tube will keep your body alive but laying in a bed for years has always seemed pointless to me. Man made the G tube and I am simply a person who doesnt believe in life support unless there is hope. -
Hope for what? Being normal? My cousin drowned and was under water for a good 20 min. He was resuscitated by paramedics. After a few days his parents asked for him to be taken off life support. The Dr threatened them over it but he was taken off life support. He didn’t die. He does require tube feeding. And he does spend his life in bed. Unless his parents feel like putting him in a wheelchair and taking him outside or anywhere else. So should they starve him to death? He’s certainly severely brain damaged but he’s also aware of his surroundings and those around him. He cries when he hurts and he laughs and smiles over what he likes. Who decides if his life is “worth” living? Is it morally ok to end his life because he can’t feed himself and depends on others….much like a child. But of course he has no “hope” of being normal.
MM I have been a nurse for 28 years. I have had patients beg me to let them die! They never wanted the G tube…their families did! As I have said…I do NOT wish to live this way. If anyone puts me on life support I will be back to haunt them!
Heather, with all due reepect, some depressed people beg to die. It’s only later that they realize that they were wrong.
I was once so sick in the hospital from pneumonia that I feelings of wanting to die. Thank goodness I never expressed these thoughts because someone may have taken me up on it!
I don’t think this mother would want her baby to die. And I really don’t think the baby wants to die.
Sorry we werent meant to live forever yet some families want CPR done on 100 year old mom or dad….barbaric!!!
I would never want to be kept alive through extraordinary means or life support. If that was his wife’s wish I don’t see a problem with that, but I don’t think her baby got any say in the decisions. This case is awfully sad, is it medically possible to keep the baby alive if she’s on life support for at least several months so the baby can live?
My father was 57 when he was killed by a speeding driver, two weeks after our firstborn met us for the first time. My father never met him being an ocean away but how he looked forward to his first grandson was an inspiration. If I had the chance to keep my father on life support I would forever but he died instantly. I owed my father as much for all he has given me and my sister.
So this man wants to let his wife AND baby die?
Sorry this doesn’t seem very clear to me.
I understand people have very STRONG opinions on both sides of the life support issue. BUT what are in the best interests of this mother and child??
And maybe she didn’t want life saving measures but what about during a pregnancy??
I will pray this daddy keeps his wife alive until their baby can be safely delivered and then let his spouse go.
Heartbreaking.
MM
So you get to decide for others’ what is “normal?” You get to decide for others what hope looks like? You get to decide who has a life deemed “pointless?”
ALL life is precious. We err on the side of life. I wish we could all agree on that.
And yes I have worked with people who could not communicate, could not hear or see or take care of any of their own personal needs. But because they were human beings I offered them the respect and dignity and love and care that ALL human beings deserve.
“I will pray this daddy keeps his wife alive until their baby can be safely delivered and then let his spouse go.”
I think that’s what the Texas law is there for, hopefully he doesn’t win his petition. His wife may have wanted to die in this state, but the baby made no such decisions.
“Sorry we werent meant to live forever yet some families want CPR done on 100 year old mom or dad….barbaric!!”
Yeah that’s pretty barbaric if the elderly person had no wish for extraordinary measures. Perhaps they just wanted comfort care until they died a natural death? My ex works as a CNA and has told me stories of people who insisted feeding tubes and such be put into their elderly parents, against the parents wishes, and then need came to visit even.
DOES THIS EVER MAKE ME INCENSED? The rank …. right word -is …STUPIDITY on top of IGNORANCE! this goes especially to you Heather!
When I traveled to Germany in 1981, I SAW A YOUNG MAN (15-16) walking (really staggering, banging from one-hall wall to the opposite side of the hallway) as he careened his way (unaided) down the hall. I asked my companion about him. “He was in a serious car accident about 1 week ago and was in a coma since! What you witnessed was him after 3 days of cell injections.”
I subsequently learned there are a large number of things (often lack of oxygen) that do damage to nerve cells. Only if the core of a cell is damaged is the-game-over, otherwise the nerve cell can be fixed. A damaged cell, with its nucleus intact is only ‘FUNCTIONALLY-dead’ and can be repaired with cell treatments.
This is NOT orthodox medicine (what Heather practices) and is far safer than drugs and is ‘smarter’ too, because it reaches far beyond the medical-enclave, we call orthodoxy.
John I am very sorry we do not see eye to eye on this. I took care of a hispanic woman back in 2004. Her son wanted a tube feed and full CPR. This woman was on anti depressants through her g tube. She ripped her tube out so many times we had to put mitten restraints on her. She yelled day and night ” let me go and meet my maker!!” She was in her 90s and her son did it to her! She finally had a massive heart attack and died.
Want life support? FINE Dont? FINE! I do NOT and it is in writing. And my last wishes had better be respected!!!!
And this woman is a paramedic so she knows what being in a PVS means. She doesnt want her body to remain alive if she is going to be brain dead. And I forget who said it but it is so true!!! We have so many people on life support and very few family members who WANTED this NEVER visit!!!
When should we let go? The body was meant to live and die. Would you actually agree that a 103 year old frail lady should be revived through CPR? Then their ribs are fractured and they generally die in the hospital or return to LTC worse off then they ever were. Its not uncommon for them to suffer another heart attack or a multitude of health problems.
Heather there are many, many stories, and often they apply to the ‘orthodox perspective’. Strange, I’ve been studying nutrition and alternate medical practices for decades now, and they seem to embrace 130yrs as the human’s average lifespan … that’s close to DOUBLE what it is now! I met a priest from northern-Africa, the ‘average’ lifespan was 29 yrs in his nation. He had never met anyone older than 80.
… ‘the concept that ‘I-KNOW’ soon devolves into ‘I-KNOW-EVERYTHING-worthwhile, and ‘I-KNOW-BEST (after all I am experienced -nurse-widow-depressed). Please start living outside the norm, in a world filled with hope and real possibilities. The reason Cell Therapy is not common medical practice is ???? To me that is rank injustice for those trapped-in their body.
Heather I think it’s weird when people act like death isn’t a natural part of life. I think people should be able to make their own decisions on whether to allow extraordinary measures or take themselves of life support (if they are still conscious or have someone designated to make that decision). There’s nothing immoral about natural death, with the person’s say so. But the baby in this case hasn’t got any input on the situation at all, so I don’t think it’s justifiable to let the baby die,
And so the alternative Heather?
Starving them to death? Barbaric.
Animals and inmates on death row get better treatment than that.
Well, according to people who work with hospice and such, it’s completely natural for people who are dying to stop eating and such at the end of their lives, and it’s not painful for them. So I think “starvation” might be a scare term. Is it better to force a tube in them, against their wishes, to drag out their deaths a couple months? Seems like that shouldn’t be anyone but the patients decision.
And Heather was talking specifically about CPR, where no one would be starving to death if it wasn’t provided.
Deluded,
Terri Schiavo.
Starvation isn’t a “scare” term and since when have you known me to try and “scare” others with “scary” terms??
How do you know it’s not painful?
So back on track here please. Should this husband be able to kill his wife and child?
I know next to nothing about the Terri Schiavo case, so I wouldn’t comment on it.
From what I have been told by those who work in hospice, people naturally stop eating at some points before their death. Their bodes prepare for death by shutting functions like that down (I’m not talking about temporarily disabled people who might need a feeding tube, or permanently disabled people who may need a feeding tube for their lifetimes). That’s okay, it’s how life goes. Nobody is barbarically torturing anyone by providing comfort care instead of invasive interventions (at the patients request, of course). 90 year olds shouldn’t have broken ribs from CPR they never wanted or feeding tubes put in without their requests.
And Carla you’re obviously not listening to me, like I said the baby hasn’t got a say in any of this so of course the baby shouldn’t have to die because of his or her parents wishes on their own end of life care, I think at the least the woman should be kept alive until the baby can survive on his or her own, then the woman’s wishes for life support can be considered.I don’t know how medically possible it is, but the baby’s life should be attempted to be save,
And I don’t think it’s fair to say people are “killing” their family members by removing life support, that’s just mean. They aren’t putting a gun to their head, they aren’t ODing them on deadly drugs. Generally they are trying to respect their family members wishes for extraordinary measures,
Being this woman is brain dead, its likely once they remove her from a ventilator, she will die. There will be no issue of “starving” her.
Terry Schiavo was brain damaged, not brain dead. Two distinctly different situations.
This woman is dead and is “alive” only because of a ventilator and artificial feeding. After the baby is born, I think it is the proper course of action to remove the ventilator unless there is some miraculous change in her condition.
Its people in this situation that organ harvests are performed on. If I never do another one it will be too soon.
Sorry.
I get too caught up in Heather’s stories and anecdotes.
Should this husband be able to take his wife off life support thus killing his child?
Good grief Deluded. I am not being “mean.”
“They aren’t putting a gun to their head, they aren’t ODing them on deadly drugs.”
You are absolutely correct DLPL. These family members are not even brave enough to PULL THE PLUG so they have a “medical professional” PULL THE PLUG for them. But that makes all the difference I guess…
No Carla, I’ve said from my very first post on this thread that the baby’s life should be preserved if medically possible, even if it involves postponing the mother’s end of life wishes. I’ve said that multiple times. There’s no evidence, apparently, that the baby is dead, so the baby’s life should be attempted to be saved even if the mothers cannot be.
I don’t think you’re being deliberately mean, I just think people aren’t particularly kind when they say that those who sadly have to take their loved ones off of life support are killing them. And people who work in hospice and allow people (according to the patients own wishes) to die natural deaths instead of interventions are not killing or being barbaric either.
Yes Thomas. Thank you.
Now my brain is wondering how often this does happen? Is that why Texas has the law? What states have laws to prevent a child dying along with mom?
I read more stories about husbands that do everything they can to save their child when their wife is brain dead. Thank you Lord.
Must research.
Deluded
Then if I have offended anyone THEY can comment to me and I will apologize.
Wishes or not loved ones LIVES are ended when the plug is pulled. Yes?
“You are absolutely correct DLPL. These family members are not even brave enough to PULL THE PLUG so they have a “medical professional” PULL THE PLUG for them. But that makes all the difference I guess…”
Well if you wish to remain on life support indefinitely, you need to get the appropriate legal paperwork and make sure your wishes are respected legally, just in case someone has a different idea when you’re incapacitated. I don’t get your complaint, would you be happier if either the family member had to remove tubes and such (which they aren’t qualified to do and could end up injuring the patient and causing pain) or no one should ever be removed from life support?
“I read more stories about husbands that do everything they can to save their child when their wife is brain dead. Thank you Lord. ”
Yes some people do protect the child. Others don’t, which is why i agree with the Texas law. The baby is unable to advocate for his or herself and obviously has a “pro-choice” father who believes the mothers wishes trump the child’s rights. Not cool.
“Wishes or not loved ones LIVES are ended when the plug is pulled. Yes?”
People die naturally when life support and extraordinary measures are ended.
Folks,
“Pulling the plug” is only necessary because we have technology to keep brain dead people alive. This woman and her child would both be in their graves without it.
When I am involved in an “organ harvest” I keep people alive and when the organs are “harvested” life support is shut off. Is this murder? Is it “pulling the plug”?
Are you convoluting this issue on purpose DLPL? Are we not qualified to PULL THE PLUG? This is what happends first and tube-removal follows. If anyone wants their “loved one” removed from life support, they can PULL THE PLUG (turn off the switch to be more precise) and have a “medical professional” remove the tubes. I bet if there was a directive for family members to PULL THE PLUG themselves most would be singing a different tune.
Just imagine all the energy this man is wasting on having the PLUG PULLED instead of fighting for the baby’s life.
What in the world do you mean by pulling the plug Thomas? Turning off the ventilator? Is that what you are referring to?
Its okay deluded and Carla…thats why Iþdid eventually switch to hospice. And believe what you want but people dont die kicking and screaming on hospice. The body begins to shut down from the end stage of a diseaae. But some nurses lol because weve been called murderers before. Thats rediculous. Okay in this case please let the baby live and then remove the life support.
I know that you have difficulty processing “pulling the plug” concept but that exactly is what it states. There is no moral and ethical way to justify starting life-support only to pull-the-plug later. Any medical professional who somehow buys into the “legality” of such action needs to rethink their profession.
Sorry about the typos…..but did you know what generally happens to a person who is brain dead. Took care of a failed suicide attempt pt once. This guy lasted about 15 years. He missed and his mom wanted him on life support. He got bed sores he got infections. He had a catheter. He defecated on himself. I mean Ive worked LTC for years. I just dont think some families get it. This person can only flicker his eyes. They get contractures. Its not as if one day they will get up again and walk around. Get it? Brain dead.
That is ridiculous in my opinion, Thomas, there’s nothing immoral about respecting someone’s wish to die naturally. God gave us lifespans for a reason, we were never meant to live forever and eventually we are all going to die natural deaths (as long as we are allowed to do so and not harmed in some way). That’s okay, it’s the way life works. We shouldn’t be assisting anyone’s suicide, or refusing to give them treatment that they want, but we should be respecting their wishes to not have or have removed extraordinary measures and life support.
“Okay in this case please let the baby live and then remove the life support.”
Thank you Heather. That is the point all along…
Uh Thomas, that’s EXACTLY what I’ve said since my very first comment.
Sorry…ive worked in LTC for a very long time. I will never change my position. As I have posed the ?…..when is it okay to let an ill person die? Prior to a natural death most people generally lapse into a coma. Naturally food and fluids stop as the organs begin to fail. This is how the Lord designed our bodies to die.
Good then we can all agree.
So, let me get this straight. Everyone here is fighting each other over nothing? Sounds about right.
DLPL: you are not reading me at all. I think it is RIDICULOUS to put oneself ever in a position to approve of life-support measures only to be a party to pulling the plug later. In its most pure terms, placing someone on life-support means having the desire to sustain life and thus to pull the plug later flies in the face of the entire process. But as I said, a family member can shut it off only to be sure that noone else shares this burden.
Jdc lol …no just a difference of opinion.
No JDC, again people are misreading me and accusing me of things I’ve repeatedly said I don’t support. It’s my favorite thing.
Thomas I don’t think you get it. Medical professionals are legally obligated to perform life saving care if they don’t have a DNR form or another legal way to avoid doing so. In emergency situations sometimes people get put on life support that need to be taken off, through no fault of the medical professional. Also, some people prefer being on life support for a limited amount of time, and if there is no improvement they want to be taken off. You’re making it sound like medical professional are running around putting people on and off life support for fun. That’s not how it works. I don’t think it’s necessary to force family members to do so, and not everyone who wishes to not go on life support or wishes to be taken off has family.
Well all I can respond to that DLPL is that no medical professional should take any part in any decision that terminates life, whatever the circumstances are. And please, I am well aware it is not their fault and they do not run-around looking for this opportunity, but that is not the point.
Like I said many times here – if the family wants their wishes respected, they can always pull the plug themselves since that is what they desire. Nothing like personal contribution to the demise of a “loved one.”
Well Thomas all I can say is that allowing someone to die naturally is much different than deliberately killing them. Please do not attempt to do me any favors and keep me on life support against my wishes lol. If you have different wishes I hope you make sure you take the legal steps to have them protected.
We must be speaking different languages to one another because my posts have not addressed personal wishes but the concept and process of life support measures and the participation of medical professionals and family members in end of life pulling of the plug. Have I not been clear on this…
Hi JDC 4:13PM
Well I have tried to interject with some medical knowledge here but I seem to be shouting in the wind!
Thomas if a medical professional is uncomfortable with removing life support they should never have to be involved in it. I think we can agree on that much.
I think that medical knowledge notwithstanding Mary, the family should be burdened with pulling the plug and not the medical professional. That is my message but obviously we have ardent support for the medical profession to be the one pulling the plug, so be it :)
That’s my point DLPL. Yes. Medical professional and participation in life-ending procedures should never be used in the same sentence :)
It should probably be up to the medical professional if they want to be involved in ending life support, but it doesn’t mean they aren’t a medical professional if they don’t have any moral qualms with it. I think it’s ridiculous to act like anyone’s being killed there, you’re simply allowing someone’s life to end naturally. It’s not like your giving them meds to kill them or something, you’re allowing their life to leave them naturally.
You and I read the hippocratic oath differently. I am a proponent of the original but I do understand that liberal politics butchered the true meaning of the oath for the past two or so decades.
Hi Thomas R,
The “plug is pulled” in consultation with the family. In this situation with the pregnant woman, I can understand keeping the mother alive until the baby can be safely delivered and I support it.
Also, a brain dead patient is DEAD!. There is no reason to prolong their dying. Medical people may have to get adamant and even go to court at times to make this register, as heartbreaking as it is. People wanting to deny the loss of a loved one or clinging to hope is not unusual, and is to be expected. But reality has to be faced.
Also, concerning the original Hippocratic Oath, keeping dead people alive was not an issue.
Well I guess I see harm in forcing people to sustain their life against their will, when they’d otherwise die naturally. Especially if we’re talking about brain dead people who did not wish to “live” like that. I see nothing immoral or unGodly about letting their lives end naturally if it’s their wishes, and I don’t think it’s wrong for the medical staff to be involved.
Mary thank you! You put that well. The mother cant be saved…or so weve heard. Im in favor of saving the life of the baby. Its unfair to label people evil who have decided to pull life support. We arent going to give them a medication overdose to kill them. Often when a vent is removed it can take a while. When we have a 95 year old patient then think about how they have lived a good full life and let go. We HAVE to die and I have no problem respecting someones wishes.
And the decision for life support is not a nursing issue. Its between the doctor and the family and at times the patient.
I wonder if the father wins his petition and they take the mother off life-support how the 18 week old baby will die. Will he suffocate slowly and in agony inside his mother’s womb? I shudder to think of it. I don’t understand why this father wants to lose his child on top of his wife. He seems hell-bent on it.
And the comments on liberal news sources about this story are astounding. So many people rooting for this baby to die because the child “might” have brain damage from the lack of oxygen. We don’t even know if this child has any damage. And even if the child does…why do we as a society think it is okay to kill disabled people?
This child is the only full biological sibling of young Mateo. He has lost his mother. I know he will be very glad to have his sibling some day. And when this baby is born and someday grows up and reads how his dad wanted him to die inside his dead mother…gee, thanks Dad!
Totally agree Sydney. Seems to me Daddy doesn’t want to raise two.
This is so very wrong. I am very grateful for this law and pray this man loses in court.
God save this innocent little one growing in his mother’s womb.
Hi Heather,
Thank YOU! With your experience with severely brain damaged patients, you understand that this can be a very gray area. There is a distinct difference between brain damage, which can cover a very wide range of capabilities and incapacitation, and brain dead. Brain dead patients are DEAD. I’m sorry, it is what it is. We are sympathetic to a family’s agony, but keeping a corpse on life support isn’t going to resolve anything. Except in this case where the baby will at least have a chance.
Yes Mary. I think we are all in favor of letting this baby live. If the dad doesnt want the baby then adoption is a great idea. Its 2 lives here although mom is already dead. And yes Mary I think we need to educate people on what life support entails. Families can be difficult and many deal with guilt so the person in a PVS is now on life support. And as youve stated sometimes it comes down to a court battle where life support in concerned.
And the hispanic woman I mentioned in my post above also had dementia and was blind. She would scream in Spanish for us to let her die and meet her maker. I asked a Spanish speaking STNA what was she saying? She was able to get creative in pulling out her tube. We finally advanced to wrist restraints. That woman didnt die with dignity. She was in agony!!! A terrible agony until the day she died.
I refused to put my dad in a nursing home. He wanted no heroics after being diagnosed with terminal cancer. My brother and I called hospice. They were wonderful! My dad passed away in his own bed with his dog at his side listening to soft music. I swear to God….the next day his dog jumped up on the empty bed and died right where my father had. They didnt want to be apart. I told my husband I would nurse him at home should he become ill. He also did not want life support. It never came to that.
Also I have met patients who are very very afraid to die. These are generally the patients who want life support. Im fine with that.
Hi Heather,
Very touching story about the dog.
A few months before my last surviving uncle passed away this past fall, he told his daughter he was talking to my long dead father, his baby brother. His daughter is convinced he was hallucinating, I’m not so sure but of course didn’t argue. I also told my brother, who hadn’t seen “Uncle Will” in 50 years and desperately wanted to, that we had better make our visit and soon. I take these “hallucinations” very seriously, as do many nurses I know.
Anyway, without getting into a lot of family politics, his daughter finally agreed to let us visit, it worked out perfect as the guest room at the assisted living facility was also available for us. My brother and I got to spend time with Uncle Will, my brother and he had some “man to man” time, and Uncle Will passed peacefully about a month and a half later.
Hi Heather,
Have you been following the situation of that 13 y/o girl in California? How devastating and senseless. Looking at her picture, I wonder if C-pap, diet, and exercise would have remedied her sleep apnea and if her family isn’t going through these “what-ifs” in their minds. I can’t even comprehend her family’s anguish but I hope they will let her go. Even a top pediatric neurologist has declared her brain dead. When my husband’s nephew was brain dead on life support after a motorcycle accident, his mother, a nurse, looked at me and asked if I have ever seen anyone in his condition recover. How I wanted to tell her “yes” but had to honestly shake my head “no”. They made the decision within 24 hours to donate his organs. Something like this is every parent’s nightmare, and I can only see that little girl’s family being forced to making some agonizing decisions if not now…then later.
Yes Mary I have seen the case about the young girl. I have the utmost empathy and sympathy for her parents. Its a nightmare for them and I know they are searching for hope. Sad to say its another case where she will remain brain dead. Having lost people this year I understand their anguish and not wanting to let go. It hurts. Nobody wants to make that decision.
And Mary Ive had many patients tell me about visits from beyond the grave….I believe them all. Some of them would make your hair stand on end.
And Mary I also have sleep apnea. Im sure you are aware there are 2 kinds. I have to sleep on my side or I will wake up gasping for air.
Hi Heather,
On a lighter note. It occurred to me later that when I told my brother that Uncle Will had spoken to our father and we better make the trip soon, he must have thought I’d completely lost it!
For you and I this isn’t something bizarre or unusual. Other people may wonder if we’ve flipped our corks!
Mary, I don’t think you’ve flipped your cork, and I have to thank you and Heather for fighting the good fight, as medical professionals. I was only mildly surprised recently to find out how rarely medical people want extreme life-saving procedures for themselves, and also how rarely these procedures genuinely help.
I’m firmly in the DNR camp myself, and I’m lucky that all my family members are in accord about their own wishes (similar to mine). For me, I just don’t see the sense in wasting valuable health-care dollars that could be so much better spent otherwise than keeping me in a LTC facility. (Canada here.)
That said, I really hope this guy changes his mind. Despite the fact that I’ve had witnesses to the fact that I’ve decided to have only a few life-saving procedures done short-term if I should become incapacitated, I wholeheartedly would support keeping my brain-dead corpse “alive” long enough to help this baby, if this were my situation.
Of course, the most important thing is that everyone make their wishes clear as to how they want to be treated in these situations.
Hi Roxy,
Thank you. There are ways to protect yourself. First of all be certain to designate a health care power of attorney. Make NO assumptions that a spouse or relative would be designated as such or would make the best decisions for you. Put it all in writing. Though I am married my husband, youngest daughter, son, and oldest daughter have been designated HCPOA and durable power of attorney in that order. I also have in writing what is or is not to be done, and my family members know this.
You can designate whoever you want, my husband was HCPOA for a next door neighbor. If you prefer a good friend over a spouse or relative, then designate that person.
As Heather and I discussed, we hope that family in California seriously reconsiders their decision to keep their brain dead daughter “alive”. This can only add to their anguish in the long wrong and only postpones what must be heartbreaking decisions.
Ty Roxy and indeed Mary my patients have told me some stooooories! Im always happy to pull up a chair and listen. And I only share with a few people but much to my surprise they have stories too. As you said some might think were losin it!!
Hi Heather,
After my stepfather passed away, my mother always sensed his presence in their apt., even talking to him. She told me sometime later that she in fact saw him, he looked younger, and she recognized his voice when he said “hi”. She would only tell me since she feared she would be put in a nursing home if anyone knew! I told her she made have had a sleep hallucination, but she said she was sitting on the couch reading the newspaper when it happened.
Also, I have had the parents of deceased children, especially those who died suddenly and violently, tell me of being visited by their children, and that includes my husband’s sister and brother in law, who’s sad story I mentioned earlier. If anything, these parents found it comforting and I don’t doubt them. I’m talking about sane, educated, religious and non religious people. My sister in law told me there would be knocks on her back and front door and she would just say, “it’s “Cody” again”. My highly skeptical oldest daughter even witnessed it one time. Another time my husband’s sister looked out on her deck, which was full of people, and saw her son mingling with the guests. To check her own sanity she said to her husband, “look out on the deck and tell me who you see”. Her husband said “Cody, I see him all the time”.
Let’s put it this way Heather, I believe in the old adage that only the fool laughs at what he doesn’t understand. As such, I respect what I don’t understand.
Deluded….I didnt mean to gloss over your comments. You have some great points! I thought you might be in the medical profession. Its very strange that we dont address death or we cant come to terms with our given life span. My husband died at 54 one of his sons died at 26 in a bad car accident…..speeding in a GTO and hit a telephone pole. His other son died at 31 this June from esophogeal and stomach cancer. A friend of mine was killed at 22 by her 29 year old husband…planned murder suicide after she wanted a divorce. While at my husbands funeral Mr Carey ( the owner ) patted my shoulder. He said “Honey its easier if you look at it this way. It was just his time.” Every time I think of a death I think of kindly 80 year old widower Mr Carey. It brings me comfort.
I don’t understand why this father wants to lose his child on top of his wife. He seems hell-bent on it.
It’s because the baby might have suffered oxygen deprivation and thus turn out to have some difficulties. He specifically says he knows what challenges may lay ahead if the baby is born, implicitly phrased as a reason to take his wife off life support. The mere threat of these difficulties is reason enough to just pull the plug and move on.
It’s ironic that waiting until the baby could be delivered, and seeing if he actually IS brain-damaged, and then killing him if he is, would actually be more generous to this baby than people are being – but would, of course, be seen as utterly barbaric, monstrous, and absurd to even suggest. Kill it before it counts, just in case – better to kill a healthy child than let a damaged one live – that’s the humane, rational thing to do.
I think this guy needs a lot of help, personally. Raising a kid alone is a daunting prospect, exponentially so when it’s the result of sudden and devastating loss. Raising two alone ups the ante. But losing your wife, becoming a single parent, AND possibly needing to learn to navigate life with a disabled child – that is a lot for one person to handle. In my opinion, his desire to just cut his losses and wish the baby away, “just in case,” is an act of desperation, same as all the women who just want to “undo” their pregnancy and are told they can. What he needs is to be told that he is not alone, that there is support, that he will get through this. But we as a society don’t tell him any of those things. This poor man.
Oh Mary I have a good one!! I was feeding a very lethargic lady at the hospice one day. She was very slowin talking to me…drinking slowly. Suddenly she sat up and said “How are you? I havent seen you in years”! I asked her who she was talking to. She perked up and responded “My husband. Hes standing right behind you.”! Of course I saw nnobody but I got a chill up my spine. She smiled and layed back in the bed. Her husband had been dead for years. 2 days later she died.
I forgot…she also asked me “dont you see him”? She was ecstatic for that moment. Im sure he came to get her!
It’s because the baby might have suffered oxygen deprivation and thus turn out to have some difficulties. He specifically says he knows what challenges may lay ahead if the baby is born, implicitly phrased as a reason to take his wife off life support. The mere threat of these difficulties is reason enough to just pull the plug and move on.
No, it’s because his wife did not want to be kept alive by artificial life support, and he wants to fufill her wishes. This is not a concept that is particularly difficult to grasp, though it does require one to believe that women are capable of making valid decisions, and is therefore beyond the reach of most pro-lifers.
I take that pro-lifers have given up on the line that women must not be allowed to have abortions because “childbirth is natural.” After all, nothing is less natural than animating a corpse against the deceased’s wishes solely for the purpose of harvesting a fetus that, if nature were allowed to run its course, would also already be deceased.
Lisa C .Abortion is the murder of an innocent baby. Adults have a say so in end of life making decisions. An unborn baby does not.
LisaC,
Yes this is a very tragic situation, but it also begs the question: Would this young woman want everything done to save her baby?
No one is arguing that she, and all women, are incapable of end of life decisions. No one is arguing this woman should be kept alive interminably. A few more months and hopefully the baby can be safely delivered. I remember a case like this several years ago, the man was adamant his fiancée wanted everything done for their baby, and the courts allowed her to stay on life support against the wishes of her family. A beautiful baby girl was delivered, and the mother’s life support terminated.
LisaC, his wife’s wishes are why he wants to take her off life support. Someone mused about why he seems to desperately want her off life support before the baby can be delivered, and that’s what I was addressing. HE HIMSELF talks about the possible damage the baby has suffered, when talking about wanting to remove his wife from life support. It absolutely seems that the baby is a factor in his feelings and in his sense of urgency.
I am not pro-life because “childbirth is natural.” I’m pro-life because it’s wrong to kill people. And in this case I think it’s wrong to remove life-supporting measures from one person, who never consented to such a thing, on the spoken – not even written – desires of another person to not have such measures taken.
Hi Mary I remember that case too. I agree with Alexandra….we should be treating this man with the same compassion we would treat a woman considering abortion. Why not give him compassion and support? Hes just lost his wife and he is in a crisis. Just like women in crisis considering abortion. They need support too. I dont like the double standard.
Oh hi Alexandra nice to see you. This man might be afraid to raise a child alone. How many stories have you heard about women aborting because they are afraid to parent alone. Do we call them evil or wicked? Well some people do. I mean maybe he hasnt any family support. He has one child…he has to work and I say that if he cant handle a new baby then he needs to consider adoption.
Hi Alexandra,
Always great to see you here. Excellent points made.
Hi Heather,
Excellent points as well.
Ty Mary…you too. Switching gears here I remember my girlfriend reading an article in the paper when the Terri Sheivo case was going on. Pro lifers were trying to sneak food into her. Uuuuh folks Im sure Terri was NPO as she also had a feeding tube. My friend is an RN and went ” wow”! Although pro lifers may have been trying to do a good deed
that really didnt do the PL movement any favors.
My point about Terri….giving a person food or water orally when they have a feeding tube could KILL them by choking them to death. I took Terris husbands side because Terri never wanted to live that way. She even specified where she wanted to be buried and her family wanted that changed in the end. Terries husband stuck to his guns and respected his wifes wishes. I didnt agree with all of the negative press he received.
Mr Sheivo is now an RN.
And I remember Mr Shivo being called a murderer….some reports surfaced that he had strangled her. No cigar. Terry became brain damaged after a KCL imbalance due to bulemia. The coroner ruled out any foul play. He tried and tried to make Terri well taking her to specialists and all. He was given the grim news that there was no hope. Terri HAD told him she never wanted to live that way. As a husband he did the right thing IMO.
Hi Heather,
I know there was a great deal of controversy. I couldn’t understand why he didn’t just let her family have her. If they want to take care of her, let them. He could divorce her, move on with his life, end of story. I wouldn’t fault him in the least. I really don’t trust the newspaper accounts on her mental state. These people seldom have any clue as to what they are talking about.
I saw him as a controller. It struck me he had a personal score to settle with Terri’s family, and had the power to do it. Its why he stayed married to her even though he had moved on with another woman. I questioned if his motives were all that noble.
I found it interesting that one of the protesters in favor of Terri was a wheelchair bound woman who described herself as a liberal pro-choice Democrat lesbian, but as a very vocal advocate for the disabled she could not keep silent on Terri’s starvation death. This issue definitely crossed political lines for different reasons.
Agreed Mary He very well could have given the family POA. I guess he did sue and won a large settlement which he did not spend on rehab for Terry that hed promised Terrys family. That doesnt put him in a very good light. Her brain scan showed severe atrophy. Its a tough call for me. And of course Id read in numerous articles that he had choked her or beaten her into that condition. Those were proven to be false.
On 12/29/13 we celebrated the Solemnity of the Holy Family. The dignity of the human family is of most importance. The Catechism of the Catholic Church emphasizes the vital role parents play in the formation of future generations. May this father receive this gift from God before it is too late.
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