This past year saw great successes in the pro-life movement’s fight to stop abortion, beginning with the January 14 Time magazine cover story, which set the tone.
What do you think the top pro-life story of the year was? After I get several suggestions, I’ll post a poll.
Violations will be deleted and you may be banned.
Threats will be immediately reported to authorities.
Following these rules will make everyone's experience visiting JillStanek.com better.
Our volunteer moderators make prudent judgment calls to provide an open forum to discuss these issues. They reserve the right to remove any comment for any reason. Jill's decisions on such moderations are final.
Go to gravatar.com to create your avatar.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I’m going to go with the closing of 93 abortion clinics because that will likely have a larger practical effect on the abortion rate than any other story. A close runner up is the CDC reporting a decline in the abortion rate for 2010, as this shows the success of previous efforts.
Gosnell, hands-down!
The real pro-life ‘story of the year’ is the rise of the abolitionists.
Nothing else will have comparable long term effects.
The principle of the God-given, UNALIENABLE nature of the individual right of every single person to live, and the explicit, imperative Constitutional requirement that EVERY person be equally protected, in every jurisdiction in the land, are in the end the ONLY two real moral, constitutional, legal, and political arguments against the practice of human abortion.
Sacrifice that sacred principle, and that absolute requirement, as too many have done for forty years, and you’ve already surrendered.
Examine your arguments and the policies you support. If those arguments and policies are in fact Utilitarian in nature, instead of moral and Constitutional, abandon them. They’re wrong, and in the long haul, they don’t work either. We have decades of hindsight to prove it.
And please, stop giving aid and comfort to politicians who have no clue about these crucial things.
http://www.equalprotectionforposterity.com/the-equal-protection-for-posterity-resolution.html
“The real pro-life ‘story of the year’ is the rise of the abolitionists.”
In what way did the abolitionists rise this year?
“The real pro-life ‘story of the year’ is the rise of the abolitionists.”
Awesome, abolitionists are the reason abortion will stay legal in the United States. Eventually you can chip at abortions rights no longer as evidenced by Albuquerque abortion ban that FAILED! Hahaha The American people look at the arguments of abolitionists and reject them every time. Women reject them every time at the ballot box. I love abolitionists keep up the good work antichoice movement!!
Your first mistake is thinking that abortion is legal in the United States.
It is not.
The only way you can claim that is to either ignore the explicit, imperative requirements of the Fifth and the Fourteenth Amendments, which are a part of the supreme law of our land, that every innocent person be equally protected in their right to live, or by agreeing with Justice Blackmun in Roe that the child is not a person. Which are you doing?
Sorry, but there are no exceptions to “you shall not murder,” or “no person shall be deprived of life without due process of law.”
Three quarters of the American people claim to be Christians. If even half of them would stop making exceptions to equal protection under the law, the practice of human abortion in this country would end practically overnight.
JDC, there are 50 abolition societies now, with 200 planned by the end of 2014, I’m told.
That’s pretty significant.
Tom -
That site is laughable.
If you think Obama is a socialist, you might be the illogical, blind person on earth.
The page on gay marriage is just laughable – the site cites popular opinion, cherry picking information to patch together an argument that just doesn’t hold up.
The ‘tea parties’ link doesn’t even work, which is actually quite fitting, seeing that rule by the tea party wouldn’t quite work.
A bunch of links at the bottom of the site don’t work either. Again, thanks for coming by the site, and thanks for the moment of humor.
There’s probably not any ground for any kind of a decent conversation with someone who can’t see that Obama is a socialist – to put it more mildly than he deserves – who apparently supports “gay marriage,” and despises tea party folks.
I note that you failed completely to notice that the topic being discussed is abortion, not any of the things you railed at, and that you didn’t address any of the moral, constitutional or legal issues being raised.
I agree – there is no decent conversation to be had. I’d have to be able to talk to somebody educated enough to know about various political and economic systems. For somebody to actually witness the Obama administration and come out thinking Socialism – it shows such an extreme lack of understanding of the subject that I would deem that person a novice.
Tom – we need smarter people in office. If you are going to continue to run for things – I’d seriously hit the books. I’m not just trying to ruffle feathers. The information I read wasn’t fit for the logic of a 7th grader. Seriously.
I would say that the most significant accomplishment of the PLM this year has been the unity they have found in shoring up their commitments to incrementalism and regulationism along with the great resolve and unity they have demonstrated in opposing immediatism and abolitionism.
The Prolife Movement’s unified call for compromise and positive embrace of pragmatism has been quite impressive. The vast agreement about lesser evils being greater goods, and baby steps into burning buildings to purposively not save some in order to possibly save others, demonstrates a true commitment to defending the life of the PLM. This unity around preserving the PLM is incredible. Even pro life groups who hate each other have come together to hate abolitionists groups and unified around a common enemy in AHA.
I’d say that this unified voice against abolition embraced by leaders of the PLM has been THE top Pro Life Story of 2013 for this action has the most promise in keeping the Pro life movement going strong for another 40 years.
I would say a big story is a certain pro-life leader who says that it’s cool to physically assault and destroy the property of abolitionists outside abortion clinics if you are “defending your woman like any man worth his salt” from their sharing of the Gospel with her. (We have screenshots)
Another big story was the pro-life journalist who repeatedly made false statistical claims, even claiming that 50% of abortions had been cut, in order to bolster the end of the year fund raising for LifeSiteNews. They were publicly confronted many times and instead of backing up their claims like any honest journalist would they blocked people who challenged their false numbers and spread libel about them through social networking to silence anyone who called him on his lies.
(Again, there are screenshots)
Tom,
You will find out, as everybody else on this site already knows, that Ex-GOP spends his time trying to ridicule and belittle people about everything and anything he can in order to avoid addressing the abortion issue. I hope his abuse doesn’t make you quit posting. If he goes after you like that it likely means that you are correct and he has no answer to your post so he rants and ridicules.
Id say the bickering about abolitionists vs. incrementalists is for people who place a higher value on defending their own sensibilities than they do on ending abortion.
One of the common tactics employed by people who wish to avoid serious or difficult situations and discussion is to label them as bickering and sidestep any debate or consideration of whether or not there is a point behind the so-called bickering.
I am not over valuing any sensibility or critiquing anyone for simply doing something different in the fight against abortion. I am an abolitionist and I oppose any and every idea, organization, institution, or practice which works (intentionally or inadvertently) to protect or temporize the continued destruction of human beings under the covering of law.
There is a reason that the people who are working to abolish human abortion spend time dismantling various pro life schemes which keep it legal or regulate in ways which make it harder to abolish or draw people into the fight in such a way that goes beyond voting, marching, or attending events and presentation put on by pro life leaders.
A huge story of this year is that the PLM has become what the pro-choice movement used to be; fighting not for the abolition of human abortion, but to make it more “safe” and slightly more “rare” all while further codifying its legality. I suppose that this would fall under the rubric of Mr. Hunter’s first comment…
Question for you abolitionists. If there were two kinds of sprinkler systems available but only one would guarantee that the buildings could not burn down and the other would stop 99% of fires but they knew that allowing the installation of those sprinklers would still end up in the death of some people if the fires were started using certain accelerants; would you support legislation that required all buildings install one of these two sprinkler systems or would you vote against the legislation period because it codifies allowing some people to die in some fires that arsonists commit.
That’s a totally incomparable analogy. We’re not talking about a fire that may happen someday in the future. We’re not talking about an imaginary system that is designed to stop that hypothetical fire. We’re talking about massive, institutionalized murder of human beings. So many have been killed since this type of murder became legal in the United States, that it’s rivaled only by people such as Mao Zedong.
That’s not something that should simply be regulated. It’s something that should be abolished. Totally, completely and for all time, abolished.
http://blog.abolishhumanabortion.com/2013/03/immediatism-compromise-and-question-of.html
You said I was looking to sidestep any debate so I put forward an analogy so I could gain some perspective on your sensibilities as a person and where you are coming from but you refused to answer the question put forth to you. Think of it as a conversation instead of a debate and feel free to answer.
I understand if you need to take some time and think it through. You do realize that the link you directed me to was not relevant to ‘my’ question that I posed because in my analogy we are talking about trying to stop the evil perpetrated by arsonists and not just discussing fireman rushing into fires (we both agree on that).
Would an abolitionist have paid for a seat at one of Michelle Obama’s fundraisers to keep partial birth abortion legal? How would they have voted if they were a senator when the partial birth abortion law was passed? Would they have joined forces with Barack Obama and Planned Parenthood in their fight to keep partial birth abortion legal? If they would not have voted to make PBA illegal then how do they deny culpability for their vote when the next baby gets stabbed in the head with a scissors?
I don’t know if it was the top “pro-life” story, but seeing the Republicans and the pro-life movement rally around HB2 in TX was horrible. It used to be that the pro-life movement’s only exceptions were for rape, incest and life of the mother (which is about 1% of all abortions). But in Texas, they included rape, incest, life of the mother AND conception to 20 weeks. So, this so called “pro-life” legislation now has exceptions of about 99% of all abortions. Not that we (abolitionists) support any exceptions, but this was the most pro-abortion pro-life bill ever! If we continue negotiating with some of God’s children, to supposedly save some other of God’s children, abortion will never end. There is a reason we shouldn’t negotiate with terrorist and a reason we cannot negotiate at the expense of God’s children (ALL are created in the image of God). God’s commandment is “Thou shall not murder.” He didn’t follow that up with any exceptions. The negotiations have failed as they are not God honoring. Be faithful and keep His commandments. Be a Christian and love ALL of your neighbors:
29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’[a] This is the first commandment.[b] 31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’[c] There is no other commandment greater than these.” Mark 12:29-31
And claiming that the closing of clinics will eventually end abortion is a joke. The abortion industry is after your children, folks. There have been so many recent murder super stores built by the abortion industry that will take up the slack. It was all “Planned.”
https://www.facebook.com/notes/abolish-human-abortion/recent-regional-murder-super-centers/619488154783869?notif_t=notify_me
Yes truth – roll out the welcome mat – I’m quite confident that you astute reasoning skills are going to lead these folks to a higher understanding of how the pro-life movement works. I’ll sit back and enjoy this one. Your first analogy certainly was a hit.
To answer the question though:
– The Medicaid and insurance expansion are big stories – in Mass, abortion rates went down as more people were insured and stepped into economic security. As more Americans know that a baby won’t bankrupt them, they’ll opt for life.
– The improving economy is another huge factor and pro-life story.
– Republicans in some states actually giving a darn. In some states, Republicans have actually delivered some legislation to the pro-life cause instead of just talking about it. We’ll see about the effectiveness, but at the very least, it is undeniable that it has at least gotten people talking about, and thinking about abortion. There are those who seem to want the topic left alone in society and forgotten about – but I’ve seen more stories on abortion this year than I have in years past.
Clayton / Rance –
A question for you as I’ve looked around the sites that you posted. Maybe it is there – I just don’t see it.
What’s the end game? What are the concrete steps here? Are they?
1) Keep converting people, and don’t pass any abortion bills until the general tide has shifted regarding a total ban on abortion.
2) At that point, vote in new legislators at the either the federal level (to introduce a constitutional amendment – or get a state that is willing to pass a full ban. Either, of course, depend on a stacked supreme court – so I suppose step 1a is to vote in enough folks to reshuffle the scotus deck.
3) Then let the legislation work through the courts – a total ban, and pray that the supremes let it stand?
Is that the path? I’m not looking for fluffy or flowery language and arguments here – what are the actual steps you see and hope play out?
Tom Hoefling says: December 28, 2013 at 11:31 pm There’s probably not any ground for any kind of a decent conversation with someone who can’t see that Obama is a socialist – to put it more mildly than he deserves – who apparently supports “gay marriage,” and despises tea party folks.
Tom,
I give you five stars for discernment.
The EX-RINO is an blindly enfatuated devotee of the boRAT and his fellow democRATs.
Never mind that the boRAT’s voting record in the U.S. Senate was to the left of Bernie Sanders, a self confessed socialist.
The boRATs voting record would have been even further leftward if he had not voted ‘present’ so often.
Keep up the good work, Tom.
“I am aware that many object to the severity of my language; but is there not cause for severity? I will be as harsh as truth, and as uncompromising as justice. On this subject, I do not wish to think, or to speak, or write, with moderation. No! no! Tell a man whose house is on fire to give a moderate alarm; tell him to moderately rescue his wife from the hands of the ravisher; tell the mother to gradually extricate her babe from the fire into which it has fallen; — but urge me not to use moderation in a cause like the present. I am in earnest — I will not equivocate — I will not excuse — I will not retreat a single inch — AND I WILL BE HEARD. The apathy of the people is enough to make every statue leap from its pedestal, and to hasten the resurrection of the dead.”
abolitionist-William Lloyd Garrison
Surprise of the year – somebody who hates facts, logic, reasoning, and balance is in support of somebody with a very sketchy website.
Surprise of the year.
“JDC, there are 50 abolition societies now, with 200 planned by the end of 2014, I’m told. That’s pretty significant.”
Fair enough. Thanks for answering my question.
Still waiting to see what abolitionists bring to the table. Other than threads like this.
The closing of 93 mills.
Gosnell.
Ex I answered your question but it is stuck in moderation.
This is the comment that Brian Wagnon has been trying to post:
“Funny that you mention flowery language Ex. I think you understand some of our strategy. We are trying to stem then turn the tide. This of course is dependent on the providence of God, but we are seeking to 1) seed the culture with the ideology of abolition. It is amazing how foreign a concept it has become only 150 yrs removed from the End of slavery, but it is an ideology that some people grasp right ahold of (like myself) and that many utterly reject offhand without much investigation of their own (many times because their church leaders/others who influence them spiritually tell them [wrongly] that it is not centered on the Gospel and that they should “keep the main thing the main thing.”) 2) abolitionist societies will flower all over the country and will continue in stage 1 in their locality and will cooperate with other societies statewide and nationally then 3) there will be weeding. Some people (who have been at least marginally with us) will reject abolition for various reasons even after considering it. Others, by witnessing the falling away and discussions among abolitionists and anti abolitionists will become abolitionists, including some church leaders. We are in this stage with both stage 1 and 2 continuing. Stage 4 is revival among the churches in America. Then something like you described can happen.”
Brian Wagnon
HI FOLKS,
I realize that many folks here think my ideas so nonsensical that they just slide-out-of-memory as if nothing had been said, but I’ll give it yet another go:
Jill wanted to know our PL ‘story-of-the-year’. Without doubt, it was the birth of Liam, my bro’s first grandson! Such an idea may seem preposterous. but I seem to think that THE PL-EVENT of ALL TIME was the birth of a babe named Jesus, and with Him New Hope, New Joy, New Love and New Life! I forgot … He was most unwanted, so His efforts were ignored, just like what I’m about to suggest is: Obama means little to LIFE, SO WHY DO WE OBSESS ABOUT HIM?.
Carla, you wanted ideas, here’s a few:
Try: because memory is triggered by scent … wearing baby-powder when intervening at abortion clinics.
because learning/truth begin through hearing … play sounds like a schoolyard at recess; or a laughing baby.
Shifting towards truth. Right now 2-3 people form 1 human life … 1) the pre-birth; 2) so-called 0 – @75yrs; 3) personal selection of death-style. There is only one life for each one-of-us, and it demands continuity … the three being one, but we must DEFEND ALL. Rather than argue from a position of independence, maybe try ‘belonging/inclusion’ … ‘We Are Family” … all of us.
We now know all kinds of things about pregnancy (age of gestation being one of these discoveries) …. should we initiate a ‘naming’ ritual that we use to NAME A HUMAN pre-birth?
My votes for top stories:
-93 closures
-Gosnell trial exposing the reality of supposedly “safe, legal” abortion
-Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act passing House and pain-capable unborn child protection laws passed in several states
-Despite the disruptions caused by abortion advocates, Texas Gov Rick Perry called a special session and Texas HB2 was passed
-Estrela Report (would have declared abortion a “human right”) rejected by UN
-Pro-life Pope Francis named Person of the Year
John, I like your ideas.
Correction to my previous post: it was the EU that rejected the Estrela Report, not the UN
Abolitionist believe ALL abortion is wrong because it is the murder of our children. ”Pro-life” regulations are teaching that it is only wrong, for reasons like insurance not paying for it:
http://www.grandhaventribune.com/opinion/community-columnist/752031
(Or if you haven’t seen an ultrasound, used a licensed physician, done after a certain age, not waited 24-72 hours, etc.)
We don’t need new laws/regulations. We need those in authority to uphold the oaths they have taken:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=9151320251110
I wasn’t looking for ideas for myself John although those are good. :)
I am wondering what abolitionists do besides argue with prolifers and proclaim that they KNOW HOW TO ABOLISH ABORTION!!
If you know it…..then do it.
Quit complaining that we don’t.
Besides this site:
http://abolishhumanabortion.com/
Please also look here:
https://www.facebook.com/AbolishHumanAbortion
Please keep scrolling down the Facebook page to see examples of activism. Please take the time to read and watch the videos. There are many examples, from several different abolitionist societies.
And, our goal is not to argue with pro-lifers. The majority of us were former pro-lifers. Some were also formerly pro-choice and some are also post abortive. We’ve woken-up and realized that murder by abortion, of every single child, is wrong. And, if you cave and are willing to negotiate/regulate, abortion will never end. Others commenting on this thread are praising Texas HB2, which although was labeled “pro-life” has about 99% exceptions (rape, incest, life of the mother AND conception to 20 weeks). Sometimes the most effective thing you can do is to not do something. Nobody who says “I’m 100% Pro-Life!” should ever rally to support a bill that is only 1% pro-life (not that abolitionists support any exceptions). At times when exceptions are to be included in so-called pro-life bills, is the time we must stand firm and say; “no, I am sorry, but we cannot support this bill. ALL were created in the image of God and ALL men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” If we quit supporting legislation with exceptions the politicians will change or be changed. Politicians work for us, not the other way around. We need to hold them accountable. Listen to this sermon:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=9151320251110
I blocked ya’ all on facebook awhile ago.
It was after Todd Bullis told this post abortive mom and lead mod here that I was part of the problem.
I wish you much success Rance. Sincerely.
I just wish you didn’t have to burn so many bridges to do what you think is right.
Our end goal is the same.
Abolish abortion.
EX-GOP says: “I agree – there is no decent conversation to be had. I’d have to be able to talk to somebody educated enough to know about various political and economic systems.”
I am one of those people born and raised under the socialist umbrella and you still made fun of me and branded me uninformed for calling O’s policies pro-socialist . I think you are not open to anything beyond your myopic pseudo political analysis. Your contribution thus far to the conversation is demeaning those that disagree with you. Nice going!!!
I have to agree with a commenter that Gosnell topped it this year. Pro-life is making strides by exposing such practices as this will resonate with the people and change hearts in the end. It also shed light on our commander-in-chief and his priorities as well as the liberal media’s hypocricy. I think this story will be remembered for a long time.
Top pro-life story of 2013: the story of the non-coverage of the Gosnell trial.
For the media to ignore the Gosnell trial was one thing.
To be called-out on it was another.
Little by little, the general public is catching on that the news media perceive a purpose higher than reporting news.
You asked, Carla…
And, you said; “I blocked y’all.” So who burned that bridge? You can certainly unblock us.
Please consider reconnecting with Todd. He is just trying to speak the truth in love. These conversations are difficult for us, too. As I mentioned, many of us were pro-life and it is difficult to take this stand of total abolition and loose some friends. I defended the pro-life movement just as you are doing. I took offense in conversations when AHA came on the scene, too. In fact, I told them that the only reason that they were going to be effective was because of all of the “good” done by the pro-life movement. I just kept digging into it on my own, doing my own research. In the end, I came to realize AHA was right. Please keep looking into it. You said above that “our end goal is the same.” And we recognize this. We know what is happening is not intentional. However, look into it. Abortion will end once the culture changes. Then, the laws will follow. Compromising bills and legislation that continue to go into effect are only prolonging the day of abolition. Please talk with Todd again, message the AHA page if you would rather talk with somebody else (or write to me if you wish).
Please also listen to Matthew Trewhella’s sermon:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=9151320251110
And this sermon by Mark Driscoll, on the sixth commandment:
http://marshill.com/media/ten-commandments-set-free-to-live-free/vi-do-not-murder
Thank you.
Yes I did ask.
I held out on facebook for A LOT longer than many of my friends. Truth be told.
To block those that attack me and my abortion story is not burning bridges.
Anywhooooooo…..thank you Rance. How refreshing to read you reach out to me.
I will think about what you said.
God bless you!! I mean that.
The abolitionists I have met are all not really looking for dialogue. They are so laser focused they continually respond with links to why they do they do and reject any fresh conversation. Point in case is my several early morning posts from wee-hours of Dec. 29th which they have ignored.
This one, truthseeker?
Would an abolitionist have paid for a seat at one of Michelle Obama’s fundraisers to keep partial birth abortion legal? How would they have voted if they were a senator when the partial birth abortion law was passed? Would they have joined forces with Barack Obama and Planned Parenthood in their fight to keep partial birth abortion legal? If they would not have voted to make PBA illegal then how do they deny culpability for their vote when the next baby gets stabbed in the head with a scissors?
If so, the issue is that these types of bills should have never been created in the first place. ALL were created in the image of God. Why are you calling out different methods? They all murder other human beings!
“Until we start fighting for the person, instead of arguing at what point a baby can be killed, the focus of these court challenges will center on “access to kill” rather than equal protection under the law.” ~Tom Shaw
Tom Shaw is an abolitionist.
http://www.iowahouserepublicans.com/members/tom-shaw
Please click to see the image:
https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/s720x720/1480777_617128351686516_1965083879_n.png
John, I love your ideas. I already use baby lotions because I love the smell!
Woman at baby showers often play games that involve baby names and one of the biggest questions pregnant women are asked is, “Do you have names picked out yet?” We need to keep talking about the humanity of the unborn until hearts are changed.
I have to agree with you that the biggest prolife story of all time is the birth of the unplanned Baby Jesus!
As far as the prolife movement stories, we are making strides in so many areas and so fast, it is hard for me to pick a top one.
“Compromising bills and legislation that continue to go into effect are only prolonging the day of abolition. ”
Any proof of this? What I see is the more abortion is restricted, the less tolerant people are of it all together. Possibly because of the work pro-lifers do to bring as much national attention to all abortion while trying to get these restrictions in place.
I’m pretty sure the babies who are saved because of “compromise” laws are grateful.
I’m not sure what the biggest pro-life story of 2013 was. I support the criminalization of abortion NOW yet I would never support parachurch organizations like Abolish Human Abortion, nor would I advise anyone else to, either.
However, I CAN tell you what the biggest pro-life story of 2014 will be.
Babies Are Murdered Here.
Coming January 22, 2014 (the 41st anniversary of Roe v. Wade) on YouTube.
This film will rock your pro-life world.
– Shane
Roe v Wade was more than 40 years ago, how much more proof do you need?
“Roe v Wade was more than 40 years ago, how much more proof do you need?”
You don’t understand what proof is? How long would abortion would have been legal if no one had ever attempted incremental laws? Facts and figures please. I’ll wait.
Deluded, if you want proof that your favorite incremental laws aren’t working, swing by Chicago so I can show you the result of your unGodly legislation.
http://youtu.be/ZsLE20p9oo4
I agree with Padma that Pro-life Pope Francis named Person of the Year is a big one in spite of the media and others trying everything to try to portray his as a proabort.
I went to a prolife dinner this year and an old woman who had been to many, many years of the same dinner was commenting about the delicious menu. Then she stated, “I wonder what will be on the menu next year?” Eye opener for me.
Young people have grown up with the internet at their fingertips and they are not as easily fooled as our generation was. They can check out different sites and see who lied about Pope Francis and question what else those folks might be lying about. They can find pictures of ultrasounds and aborted fetuses. They can read stories like Carla’s and Abby’s. They post photos of their friends and their own ultrasounds on Facebook. They talk with each other about the subject of abortion rather than avoid it. They support young friends who become pregnant rather than encourage their silence and shame.
The younger generation is the true prolife generation and they will be the folks that stop this evil giant of abortion. Through loving ALL — not by bickering about the best way to end abortion.
“If so, the issue is that these types of bills should have never been created in the first place.”
From my perspective, in order to make any strides of any significance, organized causes cannot fall into this trap of using shoulds. Simply because a ‘should’ is very difficult to overcome in the real world. To accomplish the goal of reversing Roe vs. Wade, all of us have to have two feet firmly planted on the ground and consider the concrete rather than the abstract. The concrete is the reality that 1) these bills exist and 2) they are being supported by many in society.
So, to put this as mildly as I can Rance – YOU HAVE LOST FOCUS.
\\1)these bills exist and 2)they are being supported by many in society.\\
Yeah. I used to think that made them right, too…
Overturning Roe v Wade would not end abortion. Do your homework. Abortion must be abolished.
And no, my focus is fine. I now have great clarity, thank you very much.
Hey Ryan – do you have anything against The Windy City?
Thomas, having lived here my whole life, yes I do. Do you have anything to say about the actual video or are you just scared that your precious “pro-life” victories mught be challenged?
Well I hope you are not in the vicinity of Midway, just kidding :)
“Yeah. I used to think that made them right, too…”
What did you have for lunch Rance? Seriously - who said pro-lifers here think that this makes them right? Our focus is different. We prefer to address what we are dealt with concretely instead of approaching this good fight from the perspective of shoulda/ woulda/coulda. It may serve you best to be reality-driven and consider what we are up against instead of abstract rationalizations. You are forgetting that this is not a homogenous society and in order to reverse Roe vs. Wade we must think of how to best reach all.
Alienation is very easily accomplished if one loses sight of the prize.
Thomas, your focus is evil. Period. You may have focus but it directly contradicts God. You are right, in order to overturn Roe v wade we would have to compromise and play ecumenical games. In order to actually end the practice of murdering children, we have to focus on the cross, refuse to compromise and alienate all who reject Truth.
Lose your focus Thomas, it’s dragging you to the devils work.
btw, you still refuse to respond to my video.
Ryan, if I may, Chicago (and beyond for that matter) needs pragmatic pro-lifers. Can you appreciate what I am attempting to convey here?
Seeing as the PLM is defined as “pragmatic” and Chicago holds one of the largest and most “pragmatic” groups in the nation, I think you need to figure out what you are trying to convey yourself. What Chicago, and every other city, actually needs is GODLY men and women to rise up a moral standard based 100% on Scripture, abandoning compromise, mens traditions and pragmatism for the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the power that ONLY comes through it.
Until that day, legal or not, mothers will continue to murder their children.
Rance,
Sorry something is up with my email.
There was a thread on Abolish Abortion facebook page months ago that I was commenting on and Todd Bullis stated that I was part of the problem.
And that was that. :)
Thanks, Carla. You should have my email now, from Jill. Please write when yours is working again. Thanks, again. (And you can delete these messages, if you want).
Carla, I don’t believe you are part of the problem. You are the whole darn problem and by now you should realize this.
Just my way of saying I’m thinking of you! <3 Hope all is well with you and your beautiful family.
Oh, and I’d like to add that it was outspoken women like you who spearheaded the whole prolife generation. You have my utmost love and respect.
Ryan - you are no Knight of the Teutonic Order and this is not the Crusades. HEAR ME!!!
Thomas, you are so right. There is only one way to abolish sin and evil, to abandon God and behave like the sinful, evil people we are trying to stop so they feel more comfortable with it.
I can’t believe all these years and I never thought of that…
You are conversing with someone raised under very strict Roman Catholicism Ryan. One who still practices old-world Catholicism as a matter of fact. I don’t think you understand of what it takes to bring people closer to God, to be a missionary of His message.
For the record, it is only by the grace of God I sit across from my clients and not in their chair. We all sin. Now the trick is to be able to bring the sinner back on the right path. God does not condemn sinners and allows them a chance of redemption. Now, take you for instance – you sin daily and yet you stand , is it not amazing :)
For the record, it is only by the grace of God I sit across from my clients and not in their chair.
Love this.
T Russell Hunter – thanks for the reply.
And this might be covered in a lot of other conversation on this thread which I’ve skipped – but it seems like an abolitionist would then root for the worst in the short term to shock people towards a total ban. So an abolitionist would want a repeal of partial birth abortion laws and week limits and allow abortions up to birth – IF GIVEN THE OPTION OF SOME RESTRICTIONS VS NONE AT ALL.
I know your preference is a ban – but it seems to be that short of a ban, you want nothing – and thus would want a repeal of current restrictions. Is this correct, or am I missing something?
Thomas R -
I’ve tried many of times to actually argue using information. The problem is, even when confronted with facts, you seem to cling to wrong information. Doug pointed it out the supreme court contraception post – he said he had laid out information to you, and you still plunged forth with wrong data.
My issue on this page is that somebody said “hey, go to this site”, and it was a site so laughable and incomplete it couldn’t really even measure a response. When somebody says something like “9/11 was an inside job” or “the holocaust never happened” or “Obama is a socialist” – I mean, how do you respond to that? It is such a hack statement to make, lack of any sort of understanding of facts, and a declaration built on skepticism and paranoia, not on actual facts. Any argument about socialism and Obama starts with speculation of what a person THINKS he would do if given the chance – not based on any sort of thing he’s actually done.
S&P with the best year since the late 90’s – yes, quite the sign of a Socialist.
I don’t speak for anyone or any site Ex. And if you pay attention I always refer to O as a pro-socialist, a big difference. This leaning however has a real chance to develop into a full blown love of the socialist agenda. I sincerely hope not.
And as far as the SCOTUS, nowadays the majority are so far left that I don’t know what your point is. Any dissent from a conservative is drowned out.
Thomas -
By statistical methods, this court is the most conservative in the history of the court.
http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/03/29/supreme-court-may-be-most-conservative-in-modern-history/?_r=0
There are four far right conservatives, and Kennedy has leaned more to the right than to the left.
How do you get that the majority are “so far left” and that “any dissent from a conservative is drowned out”? By nature, the Supreme Court publishes a minority opinion – and any justice can ask questions during hearings. What do you mean by “any dissent…is drowned out”?
Praxedes,
You are probably right. :)
Thank you dear friend.
Ok, so the abolitionists reappeared & hijacked another, what otherwise could of been a productive discussion, to promote their movement, sow seeds of discontent, & attack any goodwill efforts the pro-life movement makes. Why not just ignore their posts & move on? We know where they stand & they’re not willing to hear anyone else’s views or budge on their view points. IMHO, it’s a waste of time & effort to engage them.
Wow, Ladybug. If you read the comments you would see that many if not most of the abolitionist were formerly pro-life. It would seem that if you valued us being “on your side” before you would at least be willing to learn why we had a change of heart. You said we hijacked the site to promote our movement, sow seeds of discontent and attack any goodwill efforts the pro-life movement makes. However, no, I am sorry, but that is not our motive. Our motive is to share what we have realized. To share what we have learned. To share how compromising bills/legislation only prolongs the end to abortion. I’m sure you’ve heard the expression “we don’t negotiate with terrorists.” Well, the same principal applies here. If we are willing to negotiate, at the expense of some of our (God’s!) children, abortion will never end.
Consider this:
“If, to please the people, we offer what we ourselves disprove, how can we afterwards defend our work? Let us raise a standard to which the wise and the honest can repair. The event is in the hand of God.”
– George Washington
We need to be faithful to our Lord. His commandment is “Thou shall not murder.” He listed no exceptions. He didn’t say, “Thou shall not murder, unless you do it before 20 weeks.” Or, “Thou shall not murder, unless you have seen an ultrasound.” (Or you’ve been raped, been through a waiting period, etc.) We have not been faithful to the Lord’s commandment. What we have done has not been God honoring.
Please do your own research as we have done. Consider all. The abortion rate is very poorly recorded. In fact, some states don’t record. Clinic closings should not be celebrated and they will not end abortion. New regional abortion super centers are being built https://www.facebook.com/notes/abolish-human-abortion/recent-regional-murder-super-centers/619488154783869 The abortion industry has “planned” the closings, so they can kill more in these highly productive “clinics” that meet all of the latest regulations. Think there isn’t anything to the new Houston clinic also being a surgical ambulatory facility? If you tell them they need hospital admitting privileges, they are going to build “hospitals.” Although PP’s press releases say they are doing this so they can do vasectomies, I believe that if the truth were known, you wouldn’t need a 75,000 sq ft, 6 story facility, unless you planned to step-up the number of abortions.
And since Plan B is available over the counter, how can we honestly say the abortion rate is declining?
Be honest with yourself and consider everything. Just because a bill is labeled as “pro-life” does not mean that it is. Texas HB2 had over 99% exceptions (rape, incest, life of the mother AND conception through 20 weeks). If the pro-choicers read that bill, they would have supported it, too. That surely was not a step in the right direction. And after 40 years, is surely wasn’t a good start. If we believe these things, we are only fooling ourselves.
We must be faithful to our Lord. That is the only way abortion will be abolished.
Hey Ex: since there are far left justices on the Court, dissent is meaningless, published or not.
And your Kennedy comment made me spill my coffee that’s how hard I was laughing…
“To share how compromising bills/legislation only prolongs the end to abortion. I’m sure you’ve heard the expression “we don’t negotiate with terrorists.” Well, the same principal applies here. If we are willing to negotiate, at the expense of some of our (God’s!) children, abortion will never end.”
Rance I want to have a serious discussion with you about the statement above. First a simple question – where did this get AHA thus far? You are not dealing with machines or some alien life form. You are dealing with fellow human beings and the realities that exist as they would in any “progressing” society. Forget the law-makers for a minute and just think that the women who have abortions do not need condemnation but God’s love and mercy so that they can transform and praise the Lord as a changed person. What would you like to do, disregard them as persons or even worst, harm them? These women are alive by the grace of God, not your grace or mine or your “movement’s.” God is not after their demise and neither should you be.
I have said this before, this is not the Crusades and so AHA strategy, short of an Armageddon, is a lost cause. Condemnation and hatred have not gotten AHA anywhere as far as I can tell. And your “non-violence” disclaimer is a joke. AHA is full of pure hatred and that is not very Godly, is it?
How have we been violent?
http://abolishhumanabortion.com/why-abolition-must-be-non-violent/
Is this being violent?
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=618664271532924&set=a.152089084857114.37654.146273698771986&type=1&theater
Violence does not have to be physical Rance: words suffice. Just think about the vocabulary AHA uses: is that welcoming or alienating? Hatred-filled rhetoric rings a bell?
Thomas, I want to try something that might be new for you. Let’s play a game called, “Back That Statement”. {crowd cheers}
You claim our non-violence “disclaimer” is a joke. Can you demonstrate one single instance of an abolitionist using violence?
After that you claim, “AHA is full of hatred”. Can you demonstrate one act of hatred from AHA?
**Be warned, there is a catch to this game. If you cannot answer, then you are guilty of the sin of bringing false witness against us and need to repent. God is clear as to the punishment for refusing to repent of your violation of the Law, it has nothing to do with me, Rance or any other abolitionist here. It is Gods Word, His command, His promised consequences.
AHA is full of pure hatred
Thomas; Again, I was trying to share what we have learned and I was trying to share it in love (which you are calling hatred). You would have to consider all that was written above to understand that I am only trying to bring clarity.
I am sorry that you are only hearing hatred for what I am trying to share in love. I guess we were not meant to communicate with each other.
For one thing you hate anyone and anything that does not abide by our God. I say our because I have informed you once before that I know Catholicism from its pure dogma, not the watered-down version presented in the Americas. I am not bearing false-witness because I have already stated that your violence is not physical; you do manage to do more harm with the words however. See, I come from a nation that was and still is 95 percent Roman Catholic. Your strategy perhaps would be a hit there but here you are loosing battles left and right. Sit on this.
You are quick to disown a fellow human being because they are not you. We are left to manage ourselves and let me remind you that we were all created in God’s image and that He is in each and everyone of us. To disown another human being is to disown Him. Did you miss that in CCD?
Abolitionist T. Russell Hunter walking through a “save” at an abortion clinic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAR5G4gqts8
For the record Rance, when I refer to “you” I refer to AHA and not particular persons. I hear you but I cannot get over some of the things AHA propagates. This is coming from a 100 percent old-school Roman Catholic for what its worth.
Thomas. Okay, you said: ”Forget the law-makers for a minute and just think that the women who have abortions do not need condemnation but God’s love and mercy so that they can transform and praise the Lord as a changed person. What would you like to do, disregard them as persons or even worst, harm them?”
And I’ve showed you a couple of examples of how we conduct ourselves at the clinics. So, where do you get that we condemn moms or disregard them or want to harm them? That just isn’t a fair statement.
Evangelization Rance is more than words. Think of Mother Teresa and her works that lead people to Christ and you will get the picture.
But again, we haven’t condemned, disregarded or attempted to harm women who have had abortions. Why would you say that?
Uh telling people who oppose abortion as much as you do that they are evil and part of the problem is kinda violent language imho. It’s not a way to sway people to your thinking.
Maybe try saying things like, “could you check this out?” or “this has been known to work in the past” or “we might want to try looking at it from this view” or “it’s great we can communicate and work together to find the best way to end abortion asap” or “we can do this together” or “this worked for me this week”
The “save” at the abortion clinic is not just something abolitionists do. I did the same thing with a scared friend. My mom did it with me. Many other prolifers do it with others. God didn’t just bless the abolitionists with the ability to “save”.
People are hearing hatred because of the way you express yourself. It may not be your intent, but it is what is coming through.
Good afternoon Praxedes, thanks for chiming in :)
Thomas, when I said this: “To share how compromising bills/legislation only prolongs the end to abortion. I’m sure you’ve heard the expression “we don’t negotiate with terrorists.” Well, the same principal applies here. If we are willing to negotiate, at the expense of some of our (God’s!) children, abortion will never end.”
Did you think I meant women are who we are negotiating with? It’s not. I mean the politicians and the abortion industry.
Bills and legislation start out “100% pro-life,” correct? Then, they come back with “well, we can get this passed, but we need to give them rape, incest and life of the mother.” My point is that we must stand firm. All of the politicians have taken oaths to protect everyone. No exceptions. We must demand that they do their jobs. If they won’t, then the bill wasn’t worth having anyway. Either all are created in the image of God (as you and I both agree) and all are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights (including the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness) or nobody is.
I’ve been trying to do that all through this thread, Praxedes. I haven’t called anyone evil. I am trying to point out why abortion will never be ended as long as we are willing to continue negotiating. And read back through the thread to see how many times I said “we.” I used to be pro-life and do consider myself to be part of the problem, too. I am trying to be civil through these discussions.
The only reason for showing the save and the video describing the event was to show we are not violent. Not physically or in word. We know everyone is working to save as many as possible at the clinics.
And we know it is both of our intent to end abortion. Again, I am just trying to explain, as best as I can, why we do not believe we should be supporting any legislation with exceptions. If you take Texas HB2 as an example again, they will just be sure to have the abortion prior to 20 weeks. There is even language within the bill stating this:
(4) restricting elective abortions at or later than 20 weeks post-fertilization, as provided by this Act, does not impose an undue burden or a substantial obstacle on a woman’s ability to have an abortion because:
(A) the woman has adequate time to decide whether to have an abortion in the first 20 weeks after fertilization; and
(B) this Act does not apply to abortions that are necessary to avert the death or substantial and irreversible physical impairment of a major bodily function of the pregnant woman or abortions that are performed on unborn children with severe fetal abnormalities.
We cannot see any reason for rallying around bills like these. And I don’t mean to sound hateful, disrespectful, etc. But can you, if you give this full consideration, come up with any reason for politicians passing this bill? It won’t save any babies. Planned Parenthood already built new clinics to work around the other restrictions. Seriously, if you take a hard look at this, why would we (any of us) rally around to support the bill? Myself, the only reason I can think of was to advance Rick Perry’s political agenda. (Who will probably be running for president in 2016?) Who now has the support of the pro-life movement?
And again, I am trying to share in love. I had hoped that, since I was a former pro-lifer, people would appreciate what I was trying to share. I was not coming here to hate, burn any bridges, sow seeds of discontent or call anyone evil. As much as I would rather not believe this, I think we have been led down a primrose path to keep the donations flowing. (Maybe not all organizations, but how many emails have you received over the last few days for end of year donations?) How many have proclaimed pro-life wins? How many have said the closings of 85 to 93 clinics is success? I keep saying consider all, but have you considered all? Yes, some clinics have closed but you know what, those seeking abortions are still going to get them done. We’ve all seen it. The clinic in the next town or state gets busier. In Texas, it has even been the next country. So although that will show as a reduction for Texas and the US, Mexico’s just increased. And again, as linked above, there are new, massive, regional abortion super centers going up. The clinics that were closed were planned. The abortion industry does not have any intention of doing fewer abortions. Quite the opposite. We must envision complete abolition. How many pro-life organizations have paid employees and pension plans? Does that sound like anybody who envisions abortion being abolished? This was linked earlier, but please listen to this sermon. Hard truth, but please keep in mind that he was a former pro-lifer, too:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=9151320251110
“This is coming from a 100 percent old-school Roman Catholic for what its worth. ”
That’s part of the issue, AHA tends to be pretty anti-Catholic. They barely like you guys more than secularists. And you can’t degrade the pro-life movement without degrading Catholics, considering Catholics mostly started it and kept it going while most non-Catholic churches and secularists weren’t doing it.
They don’t have anything to add instead of saying what we are doing is wrong. That’s really it. I’ve read most of their site, and it’s just evangelizing. Which is fine in some ways, but I’m gonna go ahead and keep supporting strategies that save some babies instead of losing them all while we try to change the culture. There’s really no arguing with them.
That’s precisely why I’m “rubbing it in” with my Roman Catholic spiel DLPL. But I don’t think that neither Rance nor Ryan caught on :(
Yeah, now at least we see you were only looking to fight.
Deluded Liberal Prolifer said: “I’m gonna go ahead and keep supporting strategies that save some babies instead of losing them all while we try to change the culture. There’s really no arguing with them.”
Yep. That is one of the primary differences between prolifers and abolitionists. You guys think that saving some babies and leaving the culture the way it is (which in turn keeps abortion from being abolished and keeps you in the business of saving some babies) is a good strategy while we believe that we can save babies as we seek to transform the culture with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
“You guys think that saving some babies and leaving the culture the way it is ”
Now see this is where YOU are wrong (and seriously, seriously annoying). No pro-lifer wants to leave culture the way it is. Every single pro-lifer wants a pro-life culture where all unborn babies are WANTED and protected legally, even from their own mothers who would do them harm. The thing is, we don’t sit on our hands and just throw some pamphlets around moaning about how laws that save some babies are evil. We can save babies while we change culture. In your way, many people would be dead today instead of alive because of these “compromise” laws you hate. That’s unacceptable to me. It’s like refusing to hide Jews in your basement because you can’t save every Jew from the Nazis.
And I’m sorry, not everyone is going to become an Evangelical Christian. Your starting point sucks to begin with. Pro-life should be an inclusive movement, where Christians (of all denominations), other religions, and those of no religion at all can come together to protect the youngest among us. Abolitionism is an exclusive movement by default, and exclusive movements are pretty much always doomed to fail for lack of numbers and “true believers”.
I agree with you one hundred percent DLPL. Even the most ardent Roman Catholics know what true evangelization entails (see my reference to Mother Teresa above). This is the reason we run from any association with AHA. The cause is noble but the strategy is below what a Christian needs to represent.
I just took the time to read your December 31, 2013 at 1:29 pm post Rance. Personally, I think you make it easier on pro-aborts. How can AHA not consider 93 abortion “clinic” closures a success is just plain ignorant of the purpose of the cause to end abortions. The alternative, in the face of the fight pro-aborts put up, would be to allow these “clinics” to remain open for “business,” all or nothing?? No wonder AHA limps through its mission…
Been telling you that PP was building super centers. This is from their recent report:
Though abortion clinics are closing, PPFA said it has opened 30 new health centers in the last two years. Several of these are mega-clinics that include abortion services.
http://www.bpnews.net/BPnews.asp?ID=41742
And:
— Distributed 1.59 million “emergency contraception” kits, an increase of about 160,000 over the previous year for drugs which have abortion-causing properties.
You want to bet that PRO-LIFE will be successful in closing them while AHA whines and throws tantrums, not moving an inch in its mission. See, we do and AHA talks. Like I said, you make it easier on pro-aborts but PRO-LIFE proactively addresses anything we need to save pre-born children. You keep on talking while we roll up our sleeves and get to work :)
Rance, I didn’t say it was you who called anyone evil. Anyway, I checked and it was another abolitionist who called Thomas’ focus evil not Thomas himself. My apologies.
It’s like refusing to hide Jews in your basement because you can’t save every Jew from the Nazis.
Agree. We all do what part we can and are called to do. Those who hid the Jews were powerless to do more than that during that time and space. Others were able to do different things at different times. Still others were there at the end to do different work towards the same goal.
God is using all of us who love the unborn in this Battle.
Praxedes: that was Ryan, the ground-will-fall-from-under-your-feet-if-you-don’t-abandon-your-ways fellow. Rance is a little more refined.
Are you reading this Mr. Hunter :)
gosh I just wish you could hear your own ‘mess’ !! Jesus Himself came across pretty much the same situation. He talked about what-to-do when ‘enemies’ sewed darnel with the wheat. Jesus’ solution ‘LET THEM GROW TOGETHER!’… in-other-words we are stuck together and STOP this silly navel-gazing. All we get from that is finger-pointing (not saving-babies, but finger-pointing!)
Oven and over AHA pointed to a major flaw in PL LEGISLATION. And they are 100% correct. People can’t see the evil of abortion BECAUSE PL-LEGISLATION IS ENACTED to educate, FAR TOO LATE ! Picture a 5 yr-old coming home from school asking all sorts of questions about the 4D images she/he has just seen in school. Why do we not have legislated-science in all schools and not rely on the (guessed) information.we all grew-up with?
Lots of these have already been said, but here are mine:
– Rejection of the Estrella report. They’re like, really, really mad about this.
– Closure of 93 abortion clinics.
– The new abortion law in Spain. They’re like, really, really mad about this. It will be the first time a European Union member has gone from sanctioning abortion on demand to making it less legal. There is still a lot of work to do and the new law isn’t perfect (particularly when it comes to enforcing it), but this is still a huge victory and an important step forward.
(not going to waste my time with the trolls)
Pro-life should be an inclusive movement
Agreed. But Prolife should be an extinct movement by now. Listen to one another. Sit and think.
Thomas -
I’m still trying to understand your initial statement (and holding back from attacking – I’ll hear you out).
Can you give me an example to back up this statement? “Any dissent from a conservative is drowned out.”
Also – how do you figure that Kennedy leans left? From 92 to 2005, he voted with Rehnquist 92% of the time. He was put in by Reagan – struck down gun control bans, voted with the boy scouts, and voted for corporations in the citizen’s united case? Please back up your statements.
Senator Proposes Decriminalizing Rape, in Certain Circumstances
http://www.kevinmnelsoncia.com/36/post/2014/01/senator-proposes-decriminalizing-rape-in-certain-circumstances.html
I quit reading the article, Rance, once I figured out your headline was a sick attempt to get me to read the article. You might have some great stuff in that article and now I’ll never know.
The headline has nothing to do with the article, folks.
Not a good way to get others to trust you, btw.
I didn’t write the article, but that is actually the author’s title, not mine. LOL. If you’ve already invested 1 or 2 minutes to read the first part, you need to invest another 1 or 2 minutes to finish it to understand his points.
Oh, brother…
Oh we got his points, Rance. They are idiotic. It’s just more “cry cry we can’t make abortion illegal immediately so who cares about those babies restrictions save”.
Speaking of rape, did you know that marital rape was once essentially legal until very recently in this country. In AHA land, I suppose we should have repealed all rape laws until that horrible loophole was closed. Who cares if the laws would have protected many women, men and children from rape? We would be “compromising” with evil to have ANY laws other than total abolition on the books.
I don’t NEED to do anything you tell me to do.
Oh, sister…
Praxedes: No, you don’t need to do anything. However, the article makes some great analogies. But because you took offense to the article, you were just attempting to make me look untrustworthy. And then you immediately denounced the article, hoping others wouldn’t read it. Although, at the same time, you admitted that you didn’t or wouldn’t finish it.
If you all agree with and believe that God’s commandment is; “Thou shall not murder.” Then how can you justify negotiating with some of God’s children, to supposedly save some of His other children? You can’t. He didn’t follow-up the commandment with any exceptions. In being willing to regulate abortion, you are just prolonging what you say you want to end. If we continue negotiating/compromising/regulating, we are giving our stamp of approval that some abortion is acceptable, as long as it is done by a certain time or as long as certain conditions are met. Please consider what has been happening. It will never end if we are willing to negotiate. If there was ever a time to stand firm, it should be for the lives of our own children. All of our children.