Lisa’s story: Pregnancy, abortion, breast cancer, unending remorse
JLS Note: Not often have I read a post-abortion story that was filled with such compounded tragedy. The following is such a sad read. Thanks to Lisa for wanting to share, with the hope she can stop someone else from making the same mistake.
Guest post by Lisa
When I was 20 years old, I became pregnant and like many, I was scared and not sure what to do. I listened to family members who told me that I had my whole life ahead of me and that having the baby would “ruin” my life. One family member even told me that I would get big and fat, that nobody (including my boyfriend), would want to be with me and would go elsewhere.
I had an ultrasound at only 5 weeks along and could clearly see the heart beat on the ultrasound screen, as small as it was. I was touched by this and so was my mom (grandma), who witnessed it as well. However, as time went on, my anxiety, uncertainty, and indecisiveness grew.
When I was close to 10 weeks along, I saw another ob/gyn whom a relative recommended who performed abortions on a regular basis. She let me hear the baby’s heartbeat loud and clear, telling me that the heart beat sounded healthy for unborn babies of this age in the womb. I still could not believe in it and was very overwhelmed. She told me that the time was very close to where I needed to decide whether or not to have an abortion since I was getting close to the end of the 1st trimester and the baby was very much developed, despite he/she being about two to three inches in length.
My boyfriend at the time wanted the baby. He would lay his head on my stomach and cry, saying things like, “I’m trying my best to save you.” He knew I was very overwhelmed and stressed and was having a very tough time making a decision. He really wanted to be a dad.
On January 16, 1996, a relative who felt abortion was the “right” thing to do drove me to the clinic. I was crying the whole way there out of guilt and fear. We first got to a clinic and found out we were at the wrong place. I was still crying as I noticed a very pregnant woman announcing that she was pregnant with twins to someone. I felt then by the delay of arriving at the wrong place that this was one more sign I should not go through with it but the increasing fear and anxiety of having a baby and the unknown of it all took over once again and we headed to the other place which was a surgical center.
I sat in the waiting room and cried. My relative told me comfortingly, “I’m telling you, this is the most loving and caring decision you could make. The quality of life is as important as life itself.” Soon they wheeled me in on a gurney, me still being clearly emotional and in tears. Regardless, none of the staff or the doctor asked if I was sure I wanted to go through with this. Had they asked me, I would have said “no” and walked out.
I was soon in the operating room. I remember seeing clear coiled tubes on a table which my unborn baby would be dismembered and sucked through and I heard cheerful music being played, as if it were just another routine “surgery” about to be performed. I woke up later in the recovery room feeling very drugged and almost in disbelief that my baby was gone. A part of me had wondered if maybe they could have made a mistake and I still had my baby inside of me somehow. When I had to wear pads throughout the day due to the typical bleeding that takes place after an abortion, the reality of the permanent decision I made became all too real.
Years passed and I discovered something else I least expected, which made me realize abortion can kill or harm more than just an unborn baby. A year ago I was diagnosed with breast cancer. I had surgery and radiation and declined chemo, as well as an estrogen receptor blocking drug called tamoxifen, because both of these things can damage or destroy fertility and eggs. Being that I am in my late 30’s with no children, I just couldn’t see myself risking this. I’ve learned that even with fertility preserving methods such as freezing eggs, success rates are not very high so I made the decision not to go with all recommended treatments.
I don’t care what the doctors may tell you or may not want to tell you, abortion can greatly increase the risk of breast cancer. My type was lobular hormonal receptor positive and there are empirical scientific articles supported by research out there that clearly state there is a correlation between abortion and breast cancer because when a pregnancy is suddenly interrupted, there are changes in breast cells that take place because the cells are originally preparing to produce milk and the process is suddenly stopped, leading to the risk of irregular cell growth (cancer). These are not studies that are on religious sites or pro-life sites. THESE ARE SCIENTIFIC ARTICLES that most doctors want to brush off. Don’t get me wrong, different factors can cause breast cancer and people can get it anyhow, but more than half the people who get it are much older than I and when you hear about younger people getting breast cancer, you really have to examine the situation and be educated about the abortion breast cancer link. I’m speaking from my own experience (and others’ out there). My experience speaks for itself. Keep in mind, I never drink, do drugs, etc, and have always tried to have a healthy lifestyle.
It’s an understatement to say that I regret my decision. Not only did I take an innocent unborn life, but part of my life was robbed as well. My child will never get to call me mom or blow out his/her birthday candles. He/she never had the chance to live because someone else chose for that baby. My child would have been 17 years old last August and I’m 38 now with no children. The father of my baby in heaven has since married and states he will probably never have the opportunity to have children again. I have not tried to get pregnant due to my career not being finished and my relationship situation being up in the air. I’ve never wanted to have a child out of wedlock and wanted to make sure that if I am blessed enough to become pregnant again, I want it to be the right situation. However, it’s reality that someone in their late 30’s has a much lower fertility rate than in their 20’s or early 30’s. Eggs age no matter what, and in general, pregnancy is more difficult to achieve and maintain even if not impossible.
Not a day goes by that I don’t think of my child and what he/she would have looked like or been like personality-wise. I always remember the August due date. Please know that there is a beating heart at only 3 weeks along and people don’t even know they are pregnant until way past then. Not only do I have to live with my decision but I also have the new health concern and threat of the breast cancer returning and having to wonder if it will rob my life too soon. If it weren’t for the abortion, there is a very high chance this concern would have never had to enter my mind.
My story is proof that abortion can very well go beyond killing an unborn child; it can also haunt you later with a serious health threat (and possibly your life) down the road. I also have to now be concerned that with a possible future pregnancy, my hormone levels will go way up, possibly putting my risk of cancer recurrence very high. Not fun to have to worry about this and certainly not worth it! Although it would not replace my unique child in heaven, I pray to be blessed with another baby and that I will be given another chance to have a baby in this life, living a long life with that child.
In closing, in memory of my child, I will share my story with as many as possible, in hopes they will take my story to heart and help to save unborn babies’ lives as more people choose against abortion. Please be aware that there are millions of people who cannot conceive and are on long wait lists for adoption, while tons of unborn babies are killed and devalued through abortion each minute. Please hear me, please trust me, abortion is not the easy way out! The reality of the decision will come back to haunt you later in life, (if not right away), emotionally and/or health wise!
Please don’t hesitate to contact me at caremints@aol.com and I will be there for you. Thanks for reading my story!
So sad. :(
This broke my heart:
“My relative told me comfortingly, “I’m telling you, this is the most loving and caring decision you could make. The quality of life is as important as life itself.””
That baby had a mother AND a father who cared about him/her. That’s superior to like, what, half of people living in the US today? Lot of kids don’t even have involved dads, plenty of kids have abusive moms/dads. That doesn’t mean that people who don’t have ideal circumstances shouldn’t live. I seriously resent this relative telling her that, playing on her fears like that. Heartbreaking. I hope the relative regrets that. The relative is a doctor, for goodness sake. Does the doctor think that way about all the patients they see that don’t have good “quality of life”.
I’m so sorry that Lisa paid so dearly for this. :(
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So heartbreaking. Your sharing will save lives. Thank you
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This is so sad…
I can’t help wondering if Lisa’s “helpful” relative has in time realized any regrets for her part in this tragedy.
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Is this from the same author as the story we were presented with some months back?
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Reality, how do you feel about this story, regardless of any doubts you have of its authenticity?
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Disappointed LDPL, disappointed.
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Why disappointed?
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When the previous one was presented I wondered how long a time gap would be deemed appropriate before something similar was produced. Seems about right.
For tales which are supposed to be about something so deep and significant and life-impacting they lack heartfelt emotion or expressions of, well, anything.
“tons of unborn babies” Seriously?
They read like they are computer generated or written as an assignment by a student. Similar plotlines, a few alterations and a different emphasis on one of the alleged negatives of abortion.
There’s also the feeble attempt at the ABC claim again.
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Which previous one are you talking about? Link?
I saw plenty of heartfelt emotion in that. I think your personal bias is coming through.
And I said “regardless of your doubts of authenticity”. As in, assume that this person is telling the truth.
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And anyone who has a negative experience with anything will sound somewhat similar to a person who had a negative experience with the same thing. And any pro-lifer who writes for a wide audience will try to hit on as many of our points as they can.
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Which previous one are you talking about? Link? – I’ve looked. It appears I didn’t retain it. It was a few months back. From memory there was also a link to another site where the story was originally posted.
As in, assume that this person is telling the truth. – my imagination isn’t that good.
And any pro-lifer who writes for a wide audience will try to hit on as many of our points as they can. – exactly! It was like an amalgam of phrases gleaned from anti-choice statements.
The ABC claim really came across as a weak bit of propaganda rather than personal experience.
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I am not without compassion for this woman but I find some aspects of this whole thing troubling.
She had a devoted boyfriend who wanted to be a father. Where did he fit into all of this? We hear nothing more of him. What kind of a family member tells an expectant mother she’ll get big and fat and that no one, including her boyfriend, would want to be with her? A very cruel and sadistic one I would think. What were her boyfriend’s sentiments on this? What has her relationship with this collection of insensitive clods been over the years?
Now please, this was a grown woman. Very young yes, but an adult. I have a hard time buying, especially with a loving and supportive partner, and apparently her mother was also supportive, the notion that she was pushed into this by relatives. She did this because some “relative” thought it was the right thing? Did she in fact seek out relatives who would reinforce her decision?
Fear and apprehension are the normal course of pregnancy, even under the best of circumstances. If the staff would have asked her she would have told them “no” and left? She wasn’t a child. What stopped her from saying “no” and getting up and leaving? I’m sorry, but ultimately the decision was hers. She had love and support. That’s more than a lot of young women in her circumstances have. I have no doubt she deeply regrets her decision, but she needs to take full responsibility for it, which she does not.
As I have cautioned before on this blog, be very very cautious about making assumptions concerning the “cause” of a cancer. Nothing defies logic and rational thinking like human reproduction and cancer. People do everything “wrong” and die of old age. People do everything “right” and die young. Yes, the abortion may have caused the cancer. She may have developed cancer no matter what her lifestyle. The mother of singer Madonna died of breast cancer after having 5 children and was also a young woman. Alcohol abuse can cause cirrhosis of the liver, but people who never touched alcohol also develop the condition. You just can’t jump to conclusions.
Before she can really move forward and heal, I think Lisa needs to take full responsibility for her decision and stop blaming it on others.
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“And any pro-lifer who writes for a wide audience will try to hit on as many of our points as they can. – exactly! It was like an amalgam of phrases gleaned from anti-choice statements.”
No, she’s doing what many people do when they write about personal experiences they have with causes they want to be activists for. You use your personal experiences as anecdotes to bolster your claims. Like if you were abused as a child and then go on to advocate against child abuse, you would use your anecdotal experience along with statistics and other information.
I think the ABC link is correlative, not proven to be causation.
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“What kind of a family member tells an expectant mother she’ll get big and fat and that no one, including her boyfriend, would want to be with her? A very cruel and sadistic one I would think. What were her boyfriend’s sentiments on this? What has her relationship with this collection of insensitive clods been over the years?”
It just sounds like an emotionally abusive family, there are plenty of those running around. People get in your head and make you feel worthless. And sometimes physical and other types of abuse come along with emotional abuse. People raised like that tend to be very vulnerable.
I do agree it doesn’t seem like she takes much responsibility for her decision and I do feel bad for that father. Maybe she’ll get there soon.
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Hi Jack,
A good point. Definitely more than a few of those in my family as well.
Still, it seems like an excuse. I’m a victim. People say things to me that aren’t nice.
I’m sorry but people aren’t nice. That’s called life and it will never stop so you had better decide at some time to take control and responsibility for your life and decisions. She doesn’t. Its this person did this, this person did that. Its not I who made the wrong decision. These abusive relatives just seem a little too convenient. That’s what I find troubling.
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I am Lisa A. the author of this very true story. I find it very troubling that certain people commenting here want to believe my very true story just cannot be true and attempt to discredit it. I have posted my story before but years back, before I got breast cancer. Believe what you wish but the story is 100 % true with no exaggeration. I live with it every day of my life. Be careful before you jump to conclusions. Thank you to those who do support me, as there are plenty of you who make up for the negatively! :)
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Oh and just to clarify, the pushy relative was not a doctor. I was a young adult yes…but very indecisive and this is why if someone had asked me if I was sure I wanted to do it, I would have been honest and said “no”. I find it interesting that the pro right to kill make multiple attempts to discredit my story…not here to debate but sorry, yes, it’s true.
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Hi lisa,
As I said I have compassion for you but I only pointed out those aspects I find troubling. I don’t dispute your experience or how deeply it troubles you.
Please correct me where I am wrong. I can only go by what you say so I can hardly jump to any conclusions.
I wish you the very best and every success in your cancer treatment. I only point out that we can never assume to know what causes cancer.
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Lastly, I know for a fact I have helped to save many unborn lives so far…and probably more than I’m even aware of. I’m so thankful for that and I know the mothers are too. Nothing and nobody can change this fact. Peace.
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hi lisa,
I’m sure you have. Keep up the good work.
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As stated in my story, there can be all sorts of causes for cancer so maybe you missed that. However, lobular cancer like I had is less common (only 25% of breast cancer cases), and this is the specific type mentioned in scientific studies that abortion can cause. All I can do is share my experience…because it is quite possible.
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Thank you Mary! I sure will and feel free to pass it on to many! :)
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Hi Lisa,
THANK YOU for sharing your story. Your voice is needed!!
I will be praying for you. For your healing.
You are not alone!!
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hi lisa,
Yes it is possible, as I stated previously. I said we cannot know for certain. I point out the mother of singer Madonna and in fact my own great grandmother who had 9 children and nursed them all, and died of breast cancer. As I said nothing defies all logic like cancer and human reproduction. The abortion may well have been the cause, we do not know for a fact that it was.
Again, I wish you only continued success in your treatment and the very best for your future.
One thing lisa, when you put your story out there, people will speculate, question, and some flat out disbelieve. It comes with the territory. I have stated what my issues are and I regret if they caused you any distress. But I have to tell it like I see it.
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A personal story of abortion is what it is. Lisa’s story or Carla’s story. We share our experience of abortion to spare other women the same pain. To spare other women the lifelong regret of abortion.
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Hi Carla,
And I commend you, Lisa, and all women who do so.
However, when you put your story out there, people may speculate and question. If there is anything I am wrong about, lisa is more than welcome to correct me.
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You use your personal experiences as anecdotes to bolster your claims. – yes, but if I’m telling my story I only include my own.
Like if you were abused as a child and then go on to advocate against child abuse, you would use your anecdotal experience along with statistics and other information. – absolutely, your own anecdotal experience. And hopefully, accurate information.
I think the ABC link is correlative, not proven to be causation. – as has been shown.
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Hi Mary,
I am very protective of my post abortive sister friends. :)
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Hi Carla,
I understand and respect your position.
But as I said when any of us put our stories out there, we have to expect that people may question and speculate. It comes with the territory.
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Thanks for sharing your story and for all you do in the prolife movement Lisa. Coercion to abort during pregnancy is very real and in many cases very effective. But for the Grace of God, I could have done the same as you.
My thoughts and prayers are with you. I hope you are blessed with another baby.
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Lisa, I am sorry for your loss and I hope you are blessed with a loving husband and the baby you so desire, and soon.
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“You use your personal experiences as anecdotes to bolster your claims. – yes, but if I’m telling my story I only include my own.”
You can tell your story and use other information to make your points. Every telling of a story doesn’t have to be “this is my story” with no other information.
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Lisa, first, I am very sorry for your loss. It is the worst loss a person can bear. I cannot imagine losing a child.
That being said, how were you able to justify your abortion after having heard the heartbeat and even having seen your child on ultrasound? That distresses me. I side-walk counsel and I always think if we can just get the women into our CPC where they can see the baby they will choose LIFE. Every woman I’ve taken there has chosen life after seeing her baby but your story shows that is not always the case. What would have changed your mind?
Thank you for sharing your story. We need more women hurt by abortion to speak out. It will be the death of this evil industry.
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And I’m sorry if that sounded judgmental the way I phrased it. Not where i’m coming from at all. I know it must be hard to share your story. I am not condemning you. I just really need to understand this better so I know how to handle it if I ever encounter a woman in your situation. What do we do as pro-lifers if the mom sees her baby and still wants to abort?
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You can tell your story and use other information to make your points. Every telling of a story doesn’t have to be “this is my story” with no other information. – of course you can include information, as long as it’s accurate. But when it’s presented as “this is my story” it should only contain anecdotes that are your story, not stuff you’ve gleaned from other peoples stories. A story constructed from an amalgam of a variety of peoples experiences is not an autobiography.
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Now you’re just being pedantic Reality.
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So you’d be fine with me gathering a range of other peoples experiences and then claiming them as my own?
Shall I copy some anecdotes from a selection of other peoples autobiographies and then launch the amalgamated tales as my autobiography?
Pedantic indeed.
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“So you’d be fine with me gathering a range of other peoples experiences and then claiming them as my own?
Shall I copy some anecdotes from a selection of other peoples autobiographies and then launch the amalgamated tales as my autobiography?”
Where did any of this happen here? I see her talking about her personal experience, interspersed with facts and opinions about things at large. Where is anyone passing off anecdotes as personal experiences.
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Earlier you said And any pro-lifer who writes for a wide audience will try to hit on as many of our points as they can. To which I responded exactly! It was like an amalgam of phrases gleaned from anti-choice statements. Do you get my point? The ‘facts’ and any opinions about things at large aren’t any great issue.
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Lisa wishing you well.
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Lisa wishing you the best. Sometimes bad choices can haunt us the rest of our lives. And lisa the one taunting you here is a troll. How do his comments get through? Some of mine dont.
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Reality, as to your skepticism about the abortion/breast cancer link, please answer these questions. Do you agree with the National Cancer Institute (http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/Risk/reproductive-history) that:
1. Early age at first full-term pregnancy reduces the risk of breast cancer?
2. Increasing number of births reduces the risk of breast cancer?
3. Breastfeeding reduces the risk of breast cancer?
4. Never giving birth increases the risk of breast cancer?
5. Older age at birth of first child increases the risk of breast cancer?
After all these proven points, how can you continue to deny the ABC link?
But I know you will. Inexplicably, the NCI still does, despite the obvious. To admit the ABC link would be catastrophic to abortion promotion.
Yet the NCI admits this:
“In addition, pregnancy and breastfeeding have direct effects on breast cells, causing them to differentiate, or mature, so they can produce milk. Some researchers hypothesize that these differentiated cells are more resistant to becoming transformed into cancer cells than cells that have not undergone differentiation.”
This gets to Lisa’s specific form of invasive breast cancer, lobular hormonal receptive positive. It is the rarer form, and it “starts in the parts of the breast, called lobules, which produce milk” (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0001911/).
Is it not common sense that pregnancy interrupted while these cells are differentiating would cause mutations?
Use your head, Reality. Abortion is implicated in breast cancer both indirectly and directly.
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Lisa Hi again. You had said something that sounds a little PC to me. Now I used to be very PC. I took Depo Provera for 14 years which possibly caused chemical abortions. You said that you want it to be the right time should you get pregnant again. There really is no ” right time” and thats why people stay in a PC mindset.
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And Im with the people here who say we all must be responsible for our actions. I am a nurse and I see numerous things happen to people for making poor choices. Let me speak my mind so that you will understand what Im saying without condeming you. A friend has HIV and he admits he contracted it from making poor choices. Drug addicts make a choice to pick up the drug. My husband died this year from his poor choice. I took BC which could lead to breast cancer for me. I may one day pay for my poor choice. I did that to myself. I just wanted to clear the air here. The bottom line is we all make mistakes. We are all sinners in need of a savior. But the first step in healing is owning it. Give it to God and you are forgiven.
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Excuse me correction….my husband died last year from a drug overdose. He made a very bad choice to start messing with heroin. The reason I want to get this out is because we often disagree on women being victims of the abortion industry. I say some are and some arent. The same debate goes on with drug abuse. Like abortion there is a shame/stigma. Some people say an addict is the victim of a disease. Some say its a choice. I love my post abortive friends too. I loved my husband. I watched a beautiful person throw his life away. He left behind a wife and a 3 year old son. On that note may the Lord be with us all in this New Year…and Lisa I was pregnant at 39 so dont fret. Wishing you happiness and healing in the new year And that the Lord may bless you with a new baby!
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Speculate and question away Mary. I hope you find out what you want to know. I get asked questions. Lots of questions. Some I simply do not have an answer for.
And Reality is only here to blah blah blah and muck up the threads.
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Heather,
Is Lisa asking for advice?
I will let her speak to her own “taking responsibility.”
PS
People still tell me I need to take responsibility for mine.
Which makes me laugh.
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Carla Ive shared my advice so perhaps other women can learn from me. I was in a partnership with PP for 14 years. I severed the ties with them after chemically aborting. You never know who is reading and Depo can cause breast cancer also. You are protective of your post abortive friends? Well do I not fall into that catergory?
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“And Reality is only here to blah blah blah and muck up the threads.”
I think you’re one letter off with respect to what “Reality” does to threads.
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Well then I would have to moderate myself now wouldn’t I? :)
I like the word muck.
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Heather,
When it comes to others telling a post abortive woman to “take responsibility” I get protective. I question the reason behind it.
That is between Lisa and God. Between Carla and God. And there will ALWAYS be folks telling me that I have never taken responsibility for my abortion. As if they know the conversations God and I have had. :)
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Heather is right that we all have to own up and take responsibility for our own actions. Carla is right that we don’t know what conversations and individual has had between themselves and God. We can’t judge people’s hearts & souls, just actions, and only insofar as to how we form our own conscience, not in a holier-than-thou way. (I’m not suggesting anyone on here has been holier-than-thou or uppity on this thread, I’m merely making a statement).
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JDC and Carla: both of you have a point :)
You have to admit though that Jill’s response to “reality” is undisputable! I can’t wait to read his blah, blah, blah highly convoluted response to that…
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And my conversations are between God and I but I still listen and take advice. Im no victim. Im a sinner in need of a savior.
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And Carla who tells you to take responsibility and why? Nobody has ever said that to me. I would only like to know why people get all bent out of shape when we cant put them in the victim catergory. If you know you have been forgiven then you really can laugh as I can. I would tell them that I am forgiven now eat my dust!
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Greetings Jill.
Do you agree with the National Cancer Institute that:
1. Early age at first full-term pregnancy reduces the risk of breast cancer? – they’ve noted a statistical correlation. “pregnancy stops monthly menstrual cycles and shifts the hormone balance toward progesterone rather than estrogen. This is why women who become pregnant while they are young and have many pregnancies may have a slightly lower risk of breast cancer later on.” (cancer.org) Are you agitating for women to have completed a pregnancy by the age of 20?
2. Increasing number of births reduces the risk of breast cancer? – another statistical correlation. So women should all have multiple births?
3. Breastfeeding reduces the risk of breast cancer? – still correlation rather than identified causation. “Some studies suggest that breastfeeding may slightly lower breast cancer risk. This is more likely if a woman breastfeeds for 1½ to 2 years. But this has been a difficult area to study, especially in countries like the United States, where breastfeeding for this long is uncommon. One way to explain this possible effect may be that breastfeeding reduces a woman’s total number of lifetime menstrual cycles. This is much like starting menstrual periods at a later age or going through early menopause.“(cancer.org) How many women breastfeed for one and a half to two years? I do support breast-feeding though as it appears to be more beneficial to infants than not breast-feeding. But I don’t have the science on that at this point.
4. Never giving birth increases the risk of breast cancer? – shame on those infertile folks.
5. Older age at birth of first child increases the risk of breast cancer? – see point 1.
After all these proven points, how can you continue to deny the ABC link? – Because in the very same report that you provide the link to it says:
“A few retrospective (case-control) studies…..suggested that induced abortion…..was associated with an increased risk of breast cancer. However, these studies had important design limitations…..their reliance on self-reporting of medical history…..can introduce bias. Prospective studies, which are more rigorous in design and unaffected by such bias, have consistently shown no association between induced abortion and breast cancer risk. Moreover, in 2009, the Committee on Gynecologic Practice of the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists concluded that “more rigorous recent studies demonstrate no causal relationship between induced abortion and a subsequent increase in breast cancer risk”.
Major findings from these recent studies include the following:
Women who have had an induced abortion have the same risk of breast cancer as other women.
Women who have had a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) have the same risk of breast cancer as other women.
Cancers other than breast cancer also appear to be unrelated to a history of induced or spontaneous abortion.
We are also told:
“Pregnancy also plays a role in an extremely rare type of tumor called a gestational trophoblastic tumor. In this type of tumor, which starts in the uterus, cancer cells grow in the tissues that are formed following conception.
As in the development of breast cancer, exposures to hormones are thought to explain the role of pregnancy in the development of ovarian, endometrial, and other cancers. Changes in the levels of hormones during pregnancy may contribute to the variation in risk of these tumors after pregnancy”
so should we prevent pregnancies?
Use your head, Reality. – when it comes to something as important as this I use the heads of the relevant experts. Those who work professionally in the applicable field. Apart from those identified as distorting the science because of their activism, of course.
Abortion is implicated in breast cancer both indirectly and directly. – not according to the info outlined above.
“Some researchers hypothesize that these differentiated cells are more resistant to becoming transformed into cancer cells than cells that have not undergone differentiation.”
If you are hearing ‘blah blah blah’ you’ve probably got have your fingers in your ears because you just don’t want to hear certain things.
I’m not here to ‘muck up the threads’, I’m here to point out muck when I see it.
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Also, in regards to points 1, 2 & 4, what differences in lifestyle associated with various choices leading to delayed motherhood or less children may also have an impact? Perhaps not having children whilst young means someone travels overseas where they may be exposed to who knows what environmentally. Someone who doesn’t have children could live a life where they are exposed to all manner of things that a woman with five children may never be.
Associative, correlative or causative?
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Is it not common sense that pregnancy interrupted while these cells are differentiating would cause mutations?
So what you are saying is that miscarriages cause breast cancer? Given that maybe 20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, it sounds like you should be very concerned about the lack of attention that the medical community is giving to preventing miscarriage.
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1 Lisa – carry on. Please know that Reality is the resident contrarian here. Reality regularly has arguments get dissembled into the Marxist nonsense they represent.
2. This issue about abortion not being proven as “causal” for breast cancer: to present this argument is just plain dumb.
This was the game played by the tobacco industry.
Here is what it takes to have causal evidence: assuming that incidence by, say, the age of 60 might be 4%.
Assume abortion adds 25% to that incidence.
That would be 5%.
If every woman’s biology fit this exactly, you could get two groups of 100 women, force half to have an abortion at age 21 and half to never abort, and neither group to ever have another child (which drops breast cancer risk since those breast cells go ahead and fully mature with the pregnancy following the aborted pregnancy), and then follow them for the 40 years to age 60.
You would then see if you find breast cancer in 5 of the abortion 100, and 4 of the non-abortion 100.
But there are other influences, as well. So, instead of each group being 100, it might need to be 1,000 for the ABC signal to rise above the other noise.
Until that study is done, the pro-abortion forces can continue to claim that there is not yet causal evidence that abortion causes cancer.
Tobacco-Lung Cancer was addressed the exact same way: “you cannot prove that smoking causes lung cancer – show us the randomized controlled trial.”
That is just dumb.
What is done, instead, is to examine a lot of related research. We KNOW breast cancer rates are rising all over the world. We KNOW that a voluntary/elective abortion leaves those cells in a mid-way point. We KNOW case-control studies show a relation. We KNOW population studies show a relation. Et cetera.
At some point, you have to give up your Marxist dogma political view because the data are just too obvious.
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Reality regularly has arguments get dissembled into the Marxist nonsense they represent. – what?
This issue about abortion not being proven as “causal” for breast cancer: to present this argument is just plain dumb. = the presentation of scientific evidence is dumb when TLD doesn’t like it.
We KNOW breast cancer rates are rising all over the world. – yes. For a whole range of reasons. Including longevity.
We KNOW that a voluntary/elective abortion leaves those cells in a mid-way point. – which cells? Change =/= cause.
We KNOW case-control studies show a relation. – correlation. With a myriad of other potentially influential factors not yet analyzed.
We KNOW population studies show a relation. – of what? A relation to the increased consumption of processed foods? Diesel fumes? Carbonated drinks?
At some point, you have to give up your Marxist dogma political view – who’s that character from The Wizard of Oz? Oh yes, Strawman.
because the data are just too obvious. – the data is obvious, it says “no”.
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Lisa C,
Miscarriage and abortion are two physiologically different processes.
The medical community doesn’t try to stop them for a very simple reason. They can’t. For whatever reason the body is saying “no” and you can stand the woman on her head if you want, you won’t stop the miscarriage.
I remember when women were hospitalized in an effort to stop miscarriage. I only ended up fishing expelled fetuses out of toilets and bedpans.
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I should more accurately say “products of conception”. Often there would be no fetus, only uterine lining, placentas, and amniotics sacs.
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Don’t you think researchers might ever identify a/the cause or trigger of at least some miscarriages Mary?
Then they may be able to come up with something to reduce or stop the trigger.
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Realit,
I can’t imagine there is a “trigger”. The body is saying “no” for whatever reason, or for reasons we just don’t understand. As I pointed out there was often no fetus. Development had stopped.
I think the medical people realized they had no other option than letting nature take its course, and its taking this course for a very good reason, heartbreaking as it may be.
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I should point out that if a woman has an incompetent cervix, it can be artificially kept closed, we did a procedure called “cerclage” using a pursestring like suture. This would hopefully enable the woman to go to the point where the baby can be safely delivered. I don’t know if there have been modifications and improvements in them as its been a long time since I’ve done one. Unfortunately they aren’t always successful. I know a woman who went to term after the procedure, she did require a C-section which was prelanned, and mother and baby did fine.
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The body is saying “no” for whatever reason, or for reasons we just don’t understand. – yes, what I was saying is research may one day provide that understanding. Even if it shows nothing can be done.
As I pointed out there was often no fetus. Development had stopped. – so there is a pregnancy environment with no fertilized egg or anything? What triggered the pregnancy environment?
it can be artificially kept closed, we did a procedure called “cerclage” using a pursestring like suture. – I think I may have heard of that procedure, many years ago.
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“it can be artificially kept closed, we did a procedure called “cerclage” using a pursestring like suture. – I think I may have heard of that procedure, many years ago.”
They will still do something of that nature if they have evidence of a short or incompetent cervix. My first baby was unexplainably five weeks early, so they considered me for this. Perinatalogist found no issues on ultrasound so we declined. (They also offered hormone injections, and I said heck no).
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Hi Mary..what field are you in in nursing? I am young adult geriatric and oncology. I knew you from Operation Rescue…but we didnt blog there as we do here. Idk if you remember but I think I told you to come to this blog in 2006:)
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Id love to e mail or chat with you Mary. Also Jack…about some different issues. Ive spoken on the phone to several wonderful people on this site. I dont think a blog can convey emotion. Im just a blunt person. We all have different POVs but I hope we can remain civil. Sometimes people agree to disagree. Again..thats life.
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I don’t do phone but you’re welcome to email me Heather, just message Carla for my email. :)
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Reality,
That’s entirely possible. There is a condition in which the mother’s immune system attacks the fertilized egg/developing embryo. Likely she will just think she is infertile and never realize she was pregnant. A genetic aberration or develomental defect that occurs for who know what reason, that just is not compatible with life. Yet some of these babies will go to term, as children are born with severe birth defects. Women and their partners will be tested, the miscarried fetus/tissue will be analyzed, and no answer found. As I said, I don’t know if any such trigger could ever really be found.
There was conception but for some reason fetal development stopped. In early pregnancy we may see only the fetal sac. I’ve seen this up to 12 weeks, placental and fetal development stopped for some reason. In more advanced pregnancy, there may be a fetal demise, again for reasons we may never know, and because of better diagnostics, it can be detected sooner. Depending on when the baby died and it was detected, you may have a smaller fetus than expected at that point of pregnancy. The woman may choose to miscarry normally or she may want it induced or if possible, a D&C. If she wants to let nature take its course she is told to carefully monitor her temperture as its possible she could be developing a uterine infection.
The procedure has been around a while, I don’t know how long.
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Hi Heather,
We did e-mail at one time and my address is the same. Carla has my permission to give you my e-mail.
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Hi Lifejoy,
That’s another point. Women will go into early labor for who knows what reason? Or she may be late.
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Also just to say the man I am married to now he and I dont want children. His insurance will cover a vasectomy so hes going to get one. I am now 44 and he is 59. I am done having children. My point about Depo Provera is this…I may have aborted or I may not have aborted. I wont ever know. I never got up on that abortion table but it doesnt matter. Its all the same. I did severe damage to my life taking the poison for 14 years. Not a boyfriends fault…not my parents fault not PP fault but MINE …on that note Im putting it to rest. I know of grown women who want abortions and have them without apology.
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There is a condition in which the mother’s immune system attacks the fertilized egg/developing embryo. – I read somewhere that that happens to a certain extent in all cases.
Women and their partners will be tested, the miscarried fetus/tissue will be analyzed, and no answer found. – that can be the case with stillbirths too.
Some things are very complex. Science burrows away.
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Okay then Mary n Deluded…like the new screen name…please let me get your emails..darn Jack I get free long distance so I could call you ….wanted to go more in depth about some other issues…but okay. You too Mary.
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Im sorry I missed your e mail Mary. I use a different one to blog here but I have a new one.
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I also knew a woman who had 8 abortions…the 8th one was from my ex. She is now sterile from her abortions. A hysterectomy was required for non stop vaginal bleeding and doctors told her it was because ” youve had too many abortions.”
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Miscarriage and abortion are two physiologically different processes.
The argument about abortion causing cancer hinges on the claim that “pregnancy interrupted while [breast] cells are differentiating would cause mutations.” A miscarriage interrupts pregnancy in the same way that abortion does. Why, therefore, is a miscarriage not as much a risk factor for breast cancer as abortion? Do the breast cells know that a miscarriage is coming in advance, and therefore do not develop? Or do you believe that when a woman has an abortion, the breast cells, with the vindictiveness of a pro-life blogger trumpeting the name of someone who has had (or paid for) an abortion, become malignant, while they give the woman a pass if it was a miscarriage?
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LisaC,
A miscarriage does not interrupt a pregnancy as abortion does. Unless it is a traumatic event, i.e. the woman is in a car accident, the body will prepare itself physiologically for what is, in fact, an early labor and delivery. As I said to Reality, for some reason the woman’s body has said “no”. Miscarriage does not happen in an instant. It may occur over several days. Hormonal levels will gradually decrease. Some women will even tell you they “knew” ahead of time that something just wasn’t “right”.
Abortion is the abrupt end of a physiological process. You’re literally stopping everything in its tracks. The body is prepared to continue the pregnancy, you are fighting its efforts. Hormonal processes have been abruptly and unnaturally interrupted.
As you can see LIsaC its not the “vindictiveness of breast cells” but human physiology at work here.
What do I believe? Yes, I definitely see and understand how there can be an increased likelihood of breast cancer. Research goes both ways and I strongly urge people to do their own research and draw their own conclusions. Don’t tune out what you don’t want to hear, that goes for both sides of this issue.
In the meantime I will continue to strongly caution against assuming what caused someone’s breast cancer, or most other cancers for that matter.
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“In the meantime I will continue to strongly caution against assuming what caused someone’s breast cancer, or most other cancers for that matter.”
There are some individuals who dismiss correlation no matter how strong it is. In the absence of anything else, correlation sounds good to me as it certainly helps us advance medically and address problems.
To dismiss correlation in the absence of anything else is not wise.
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Exactly Mary!!
In a miscarriage the levels of HcG(?)gradually taper off and fall slowly as a woman’s body prepares to deliver a child that has died in utero. The gradual falling was monitored in both of my miscarriages. I went in for tests and yes indeed over a time period of a week the levels began dropping and I went into labor and delivered both of my children. One into my hand at 10 weeks and years later I had another miscarriage at 9 weeks. The body prepares itself.
In my abortion my child was killed in utero and sucked out through a vacuum hose and my HcG levels did not GRADUALLY taper off and fall. It was an immediate end of my pregnancy through abortion.
I am at risk for breast cancer because of my abortion. Another risk I was never told about.
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Hi Thomas R,
I am not dismissing correlation but cautioning that we can never assume we know what caused a person’s cancer. As I have stated before, years in the medical area have taught me that nothing defies all logic and everything we think we “know” like cancer and human reproduction.
There are just too many factors. The widow of the late actor Christopher Reeve died of lung cancer, she was not a smoker. A dear friend of mine died of lung cancer 20 years after giving up cigarettes. People smoke their entire lives and die of old age. People in some cultures smoke their entire lives and can’t understand our problem with it. Cancer does not adhere to anyone’s rules or logic and that definitely applies to breast cancer. BTW, I have also seen breast cancer in men. Obviously pregnancy would not be the cause, so what is??
Reality is correct when he points out the rare tumor caused by pregnancy. This can definitely be attributed to pregnancy. I believe this is the one suffered by Dr. Jen Arnold of The Little Couple who had a miscarriage. How terrible. An incredible woman who has overcome so many obstacles to finally have her adopted family and now this….
Its like vaccines and autism Thomas. People are convinced both ways. Personally I think the early and frequent use of ultrasound may play a role, I have seen conflicting research, but I remain convinced.
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Hi Carla,
I’m so saddened to hear of such terrible experiences. That had to be so traumatic.
Given your history of miscarriage, if it offers any comfort, is it possible your aborted child might have been preparing to miscarry as well or may have already been deceased? You would not know if your levels were decreasing, but they may have been. You can never know for certain.
Your risk for breast cancer may be there, or it may not. The risk does not mean it will occur, low risk guarantees nothing.
Talk about something bizarre. I had a nursing instructor in the early 70s who was a walking chimney, even had a portable ashtray. She’d inhale, wouldn’t exhale any smoke,(never did know where she stored it) and I’d watch in fascination during lectures as she continued yammering and puffs of smoke came out here and there, sometimes even smokerings(!) and then finally a huge burst through her nose like Ferdinand the Bull. All the while never pausing in her lecture or breaking her stride! We asked her if she feared lung cancer. No she said, we all have to die of something.
Well 20 years later I read her obit in a nursing news mag and thought the cigarettes had finally done the old girl in. Nope. I heard later from local sources that her husband OJ’d her during an argument.
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I should mention that after I left school I heard she developed cancer……of the cervix. It was easily treated. Like I said, cancer doesn’t adhere to anyone’s rules.
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“There are some individuals who dismiss correlation no matter how strong it is. In the absence of anything else, correlation sounds good to me as it certainly helps us advance medically and address problems. ”
Well yeah correlations are certainly important, especially for further research. If you want to reduce your risk of certain adverse events you want to look at the possible causes and try to reduce them. You aren’t guaranteed lung cancer if you smoke, but if you want to greatly reduce your risk of lung cancer you want to avoid tobacco products.
I think the problem comes in when people assume and possible other factors get overlooked, but I think considering the massive amounts of attention that breast cancer gets that people are on the other possibilities as well. I know that some forms of breast cancer seem to be heavily genetically influenced, for one. I think Mary’s point is that you can’t look at someone and say “ha, I totally know why you got cancer” because you don’t. My ex works in geriatric care and she had eighty, ninety, hundred year olds who had terrible, fattening diets and smoked cigars and cigarettes for years and avoided cancer, and then you have the health nuts who end up getting some horrible illness. There are a lot of factors and people have to be careful with assigning blame to one thing or another.
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Thank you Mary.
I aborted my first child and 5 years later had a miscarriage(no to low progesterone)had two children, another miscarriage(no to low progesterone)and two more.
Hearing the words “I am sorry there is no heartbeat.” have been some of the most excruciating I have ever heard. And I am not alone in that.
I am grateful for those that I offer comfort to after abortion or miscarriage. My children’s lives mean something. :)
I really do love having your medical expertise here! And the way you clarify things with your experience!
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Hi Mary,
I did not mean you personally. I just ran with that last paragraph of yours to make a point about correlation :)
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Hi Carla,
So glad to hear that in spite of all the sadness, there are four beautiful children. Your situation illustrates that so often for reasons unknown, a miscarriage will occur. No to low progesterone, for two pregnancies, normal for four. Will likely never know.
Thank you for your kind words.
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Hi Thomas,
No problem. :)
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Miscarriage does not happen in an instant. It may occur over several days. Hormonal levels will gradually decrease. Some women will even tell you they “knew” ahead of time that something just wasn’t “right”.
Absolutely Mary. My miscarriage took place over several weeks and I definitely felt different than I had in my previous pregnancies.
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But I do know Mary. I was on the pill after my abortion. Went off of it and immediately got pregnant and miscarried. Low to no progesterone.(Called luteal phase defect)
Was on fertility drugs to conceive my first two. Another miscarriage. After researching I started using natural progesterone cream. Was told I would ALWAYS need fertility drugs to get pregnant(Clomid and synthetic progesterone)yet had two more with no drugs.
:)
I am very grateful to God that He knows what happened to my babies. He knows why they passed away and now He has them with Him.
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The first signs for me that I was having a miscarriage was that I no longer was throwing up. No more nausea. And I knew. This was weeks before I delivered.
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Hi Carla,
What I meant was we don’t know why your body would be low in progesterone and then, despite being told you would “need” fertility drugs, you conceived without them. Maybe it was the natural progesterone cream. Maybe not. Maybe the problem was pill related, very possibly not. Women who have been on the pill for years will go off it and conceive and carry to term.
That’s why I say its possible you had low progesterone with your first pregnancy and may have been in the process of miscarrying when you had your abortion. I mention this possibility in the hope it will give you some comfort.
Like I said Carla, nothing defies all logic like human reproduction and cancer.
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Hi Carla,
I was worried, despite assurances the baby was fine, because my third pregnancy was so easy. My only encouraging sign was that I couldn’t tolerate the smell of coffee, always the first sign I was pregnant.
Anyway, while at work I had what I thought was a miscarriage. I was absolutely distraught and went immediately to the doctor. He looked glum as well. Ultrasound was just coming into use so he did one and to our shock, there was still a baby! He theorized that I may have had a twin pregnancy, and one failed. He said twinning occurs more than we know but the woman is never aware of it because only one twin survives. Its easy to see before the diagnostics we have today how women were misdiagnosed with miscarriage, then shocked to discover they were still pregnant.
Turns out I had a low lying placenta and spent the next 5 months bleeding until it worked its way back up the wall of the uterus as the uterus expanded. I’m sure my friend in OB considered me a colossal pain in the butt with my worries and questions. Its not a big deal until its you! My daughter was born 3 weeks early, at 6lbs, unusual for me but she was healthy and I was done with a very stressful pregnancy.
All those hot fudge sundies obviously didn’t put any weight on her!
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My first pregancy ended in abortion.
I had all of the symptoms of estrogen dominance which is what I researched and overcame.
There is an amazing reunion waiting for me. :)
I am amazed at what you have been through as well!! Wow!!
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