Pro-life vid of day: Pro-lifer attacked in downtown Ohio
by Kelli
Yesterday, Created Equal’s Seth Drayer was attacked both physically and verbally while doing a pro-life outreach in downtown Columbus, Ohio. In an email, Created Equal’s Executive Director Mark Harrington responded:
Violent attacks on pro-lifers are becoming more common. Pro-lifers need to be winsome and be willing to take verbal and physical abuse if necessary in order to remain faithful to our pledge to be non-violent. We also should take precautions to reduce the likelihood of these attacks, be prepared to film them and prosecute the perpetrators (if necessary) to the fullest extent of the law. We understand the risk we take each time we go into the marketplace of ideas with a message as counter-cultural as showing the victims of abortion. However, despite the threat we will not shrink back from representing the victims.
WARNING: Profanity –
[youtube]http://youtu.be/g67z_xBe07Q[/youtube]
Email dailyvid@jillstanek.com with your video suggestions.
[HT: Jill]
We practice peace. We think about it, work for it, discipline our own who are tempted to violent activism.
Pro-borts do not have a language for peace. They do not talk about it amongst themselves. The do not urge their devotees to practice restraint of their own tempers. Many of them have killed their own children, and suffer from repression of that.
So this is their natural behavior, just as we saw during the Texas state house demonstrations.
Be careful out there.
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[…] they’re seeking that coveted “angry Burger King employee” vote. (Disclaimer: I’m sure very few Burger King employees are that […]
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[…] they’re seeking that coveted “angry Burger King employee” vote. (Disclaimer: I’m sure very few Burger King employees are that […]
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I feel sadness & yet compassion for this woman. That kind of anger & defensiveness comes from pain & hurt Maybe she’s post-abortive (or has helped someone close to her have an abortion) & being confronted with the images & fetal development was triggering. This is why it’s a good idea to have post-abortion healing resources on hand when doing such displays. All I can say further is just keep this woman in your thoughts/prayers and kudos to the young man for keeping his cool inspite of the confrontation.
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This should not become an insult to Burger King or to Burger King employees. Her behavior is not their fault, in any way.
Victoria Duran will probably lose her job for this. In addition to those charges of assault and criminal damage to property. My guess is that a person with so much anger and so little self-control probably has a tenuous grip on her job, anyway.
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What do you hope to accomplish by posting her name & employer on here, Del? Getting her harassed & threatened by the anti-abortion extremists & haters lurking? I read two dozen or so of the comments on the article on this incident over at The Blaze & the comments there varied from insults & low-blows to hateful wishes of horrible things on this woman. Is this how we want to display ourselves, encouraging hateful messages to vigilante justice? Let the police do their job & just remember to be careful out there.
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Is this stuff really more common now, or just getting more reported?
In the early nineties my mother and her friends would drag me to protests and block the pathways (they were not a peaceful prayer group), I was like four or five at most. I got spit on and shoved and screamed at and told I was going to hell with my parents and other violence. The adults got worse towards each other. This is one of the reasons I believe in FACE and small (like eight feet is reasonable) buffer zones. I think protesting is a fundamental right but to prevent violence you need boundaries. Florida was a dangerous place for both pro-lifers and choicers for a while.
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“What do you hope to accomplish by posting her name & employer on here, Del?”
Well, if the names and employers of people who do these things frequently become public it might discourage others from doing the same.
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What do you hope to accomplish by posting her name & employer on here, Del?
She was already identified by local media, and she defended her actions when they interviewed her.
http://www.abc6onyourside.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/caught-camera-prolife-activists-confronted-attacked-woman-33154.shtml#.U77oyvERGlM
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“Well, if the names and employers of people who do these things frequently become public it might discourage others from doing the same.”
At the same time, it can encourage violence towards them and others. Ladybug does has a point (in cases where the person doesn’t out themselves). And I bet you ten bucks Burger King fires her.
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“At the same time, it can encourage violence towards them and others.”
True, it’s a difficult issue. Preventing violence against all, including perpetrators, should probably take precedence over deterrent effects. I suppose. It’s just that people like this woman are so hard to sympathize with.
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What if this woman came to someone’s house who had a prolife bumper sticker or yard sign? Someone who did not have witnesses or a camera available?
I agree this woman is probably post-abortive but as angry as she is she could really hurt someone younger/older/smaller/weaker. Or God forbid worse.
I hope she gets help and I wish where she works had been blurred out.
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My gut feeling is the nasty comments written about this woman elsewhere are made mostly by proaborts. One guy says some terrible things about her and then let’s the cat out of the bag about his views by adding, “can’t imagine she’ll ever need an abortion anyway.”
Prolifers don’t believe women NEED abortion. Proaborts do.
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Ladybug says:
What do you hope to accomplish by posting her name & employer on here, Del?
That information is already viral. My post said that we should not let others label Burger King badly on account of her behavior.
Pro-lifers know Burger King: It is a subsidiary of Pepsico. Pro-lifers respect Pepsico: As much as a multinational megacorp can, Pepsico respects pro-lifers. They quit using fetal stem cells to test flavor enhancers, as we had long requested.
So we thank Pepsico and their subsidiaries, including Burger King.
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I just see so much sorrow in this young woman. She seems so world weary and hurt….and so very young. This is all she knows how to do, and that, too, is really, really sad.
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Racist? They look like two average looking white guys to me. No white sheets or anything.
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I guess the white male abortionistsm who maim, injure, and even kill women but get a slap on the wrist are using their white male privilege too, but that’s acceptable.
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I love the fact that they reported it as “Pro-Life” and not Anti-abortion. It’s says something when the media reports as such.
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Pro-lifers need to be winsome and be willing to take verbal and physical abuse if necessary in order to remain faithful to our pledge to be non-violent.
“Winsome”? That one made me laugh.
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Whew! So glad there was that buffer around the nazi death camps. It made it so much safer for everyone (but the Jews).
That’s pretty much how what you said resounds with me Deluded. But I forgot–you hate comparing one genocide with another.
You support FACE? Are you aware that FACE has been used to sentence good pro-lifer to prison? Pro-lifers who are out there, reaching out to the women and SAVING LIVES?
When I see pro-aborts acting like this woman did in the video I am never surprised. Abortion teaches us that violence is an acceptable answer to dealing with people who upset you or get in your way or interrupt your life in any way. This is the abortion mentality being acted out in front of us.
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I don’t get the racist angle on this.
Is the woman in the video not white? Weird. Maybe she’s part Hispanic, but honestly, she’s def part white. Stupidity to claim racism.
It’s like it’s the only thing she could think of. When some people have no facts or arguments, they start frothing at the mouth and randomly cry, “racism!”
This happens on every level of our society and govt. While racism does still exist in places, I’m hoping more people can see when the race card is played as a simple distraction technique.
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“You support FACE? Are you aware that FACE has been used to sentence good pro-lifer to prison? Pro-lifers who are out there, reaching out to the women and SAVING LIVES?”
I support FACE and small buffer zones because I watched people getting punched out, knocked down, spit on, shoved, etc before they existed. I was only four or five I think, I should not have witnessed such violence nor had it directed at me. I believe those laws allow pro-lifers to exercise their constitutional rights while protecting people (somewhat) from violence. Abortion seeking women are not helped by physically being blocked from clinics, peaceful talking and support is where it is at and I dont believe blocking clinic access assists in that goal of getting rid of legal abortion.
And no I do not personally compare tragedies. I believe it is dishonoring the victims. Abortion victims deserve their own attention. So do Holocaust victims. So do Rwandan and Armenian victims.
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“don’t get the racist angle on this.
Is the woman in the video not white? Weird. Maybe she’s part Hispanic, but honestly, she’s def part white. Stupidity to claim racism.”
Lol I’m half white and half Cuban and I get amused when white Hispanics claim racism. If any minority group faces little racism it is white Hispanics.
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If any minority group faces little racism it is white Hispanics.
May be, Jack, but “downtown Ohio” still sounds awfully awkward.
: P
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White is a “race”, Hispanic is an ethnicity (it just means you come from a country that primarily speaks Spanish, lol).
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“White” ain’t really even a race, Holmes.
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Race doesn’t even really exist, Watson!
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“Winsome”? That one made me laugh.
They probably hold their signs in a puckish manner.
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This is one of the reasons I can’t sidewalk counsel, etc. If someone started attacking me, I would definitely be defending myself. Wouldn’t look as good on camera. I’m amazed at people being able to stay so calm in the face of physical violence. I could ignore the words, but the rest – that’s a level of grace I can’t imagine.
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Yes, Hispanics can be any race. I was surprised when I met some Argentinians who were very Nordic looking. I work on the weekends in a neighborhood that is mostly Hispanic — predominantly Puerto Rican but there are Dominicans and some Central Americans. People often speak Spanish to me and I wondered why because I don’t “look” Puerto Rican or Central American. Then someone told me they thought I was Dominican! Interesting, especially since I don’t speak a word of Spanish.
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Most of the Cubans in the US are pretty light, because Cuba is seriously racially segregated by color (higher classes tend to be whiter, colorism is terrible there, and it was mostly upper and middle class people that ran from Castro). I just find it funny when people tell me I can’t possibly be Hispanic because I have blue eyes and relatively light skin. I respond in Spanish usually lol.
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This is her mom’s response about her daughter’s actions.
http://www.myfox28columbus.com/news/features/top-stories/stories/mother-woman-attacked-prolife-activists-reaches-out-group-33191.shtml#.U8FvCfldWa8
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CT: This is one of the reasons I can’t sidewalk counsel, etc. If someone started attacking me, I would definitely be defending myself.
Yeah, I was thinking, like:
http://imageshack.us/a/img856/3416/nkue.png
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Race doesn’t even really exist, Watson!
Jack, it’s somewhat mutable, and we often see “race” used the wrong way and/or in the wrong context. We can say “the human race” or refer to more specific things – which generally go to physical characteristics – there are certainly Negroid, Caucasoid, and Mongoloid, as well as things like “Nordic.”
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Doug my point is that we are so intermixed and we are all the same species, that “race” as a category is nonsensical to me. If you run a DNA test on someone who is “white” you are likely to find a good portion of “non-white” DNA, same for anyone of any race in countries that aren’t heavily homogeneous (like Japan). Most racially categorization is just based on skin color and facial structure, while their DNA might tell a different story. So “race” is a complicated thing.
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Jack – I agree it’s complicated. Genetically, we are all one race, to be sure, and chimpanzees are what – 98.3% the same as us?
Still, we do also refer to skin color and facial structure, as you mentioned, and while that doesn’t always really “follow” DNA beyond a certain point, it too is a valid definition for “race,” per dictionaries.
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[…] Harrington and director of training Seth Drayer sat down with Fox & Friends to discuss the recent attack on Seth and intern Ian in downtown Columbus, Ohio. Saynsumthn’s Blog reports: “We’re […]
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In regards to the mom’s response, I’ve worked w/ individuals w/ autism & autism spectrum disorders for 5 years now & it doesn’t appear this young lady has autism (Aperger’s perhaps), as much as a strong opinions & poor impulse control. Even if she does have a developmental disability, that’s no excuse for her behavior, she is an adult & high-functioning enough to know right from wrong & be able to use healthy coping mechanisms for her impulsiveness & temper. To me, it sounds like her Mom is covering for her & enabling her to avoid taking responsibility for her actions. Even if she is post-abortion, it doesn’t justify her actions. If this is the same person in this prior arrest photo from 2 years ago, then it appears she’s been in trouble w/ the law before:
http://www.northplattepost.com/2012/04/25/have-it-your-way-fresh-and-hot-sheets-wednesday-425/
Also, pro-choicers & individuals who’s issue is with the group’s anti-abortion message (in addition to the graphic signs) are more or less saying “Those mean old antis provoked this poor autistic young lady in anger w/ their signs, she coudon’t help her reaction! Shame on them! How dare they say she attacked them!” *eye roll*
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Ladybug: I’ve worked w/ individuals w/ autism & autism spectrum disorders for 5 years now & it doesn’t appear this young lady has autism (Aperger’s perhaps), as much as a strong opinions & poor impulse control. Even if she does have a developmental disability, that’s no excuse for her behavior, she is an adult & high-functioning enough to know right from wrong & be able to use healthy coping mechanisms for her impulsiveness & temper. To me, it sounds like her Mom is covering for her & enabling her to avoid taking responsibility for her actions.
Could be, Ladybug. Anymore, it’s amazing how many cases of autism, ADD, ADHD, etc., there supposedly are.
Obviously, more cases are put under that umbrella now, while in the past quite a few people were just called mentally retarded.
Still, sometimes I think it’s just that the parents were lazy, and that perhaps warming up the kid’s backside a few times might have done wonders.
That gets into the whole corporal punishment deal, and I’m not saying that “all kids need to get beaten.” I know that “no spanking” works fine in some families. Then, I have seen others where I cannot but believe it was heavily called for.
I have nothing like your experience, but a few times, with people 15 to 20 years old, roughly, I’ve seen actions that are quickly followed up with, “I have ADD….” It was obvious to me that they knew exactly what was going on, and that they were used to giving the “ADD” excuse.
To be incapable of what society says is “right” behavior, and then to be accused of willfully doing wrong, must be hurtful, indeed, and I’m not at all saying ‘most’ cases are mis-diagnosed. But I sure think at least a few are…
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“Still, we do also refer to skin color and facial structure, as you mentioned, and while that doesn’t always really “follow” DNA beyond a certain point, it too is a valid definition for “race,” per dictionaries.”
I just don’t like it!
My favorite was when the white supremacist got his DNA tested and he ended up having like 18% sub-saharan African DNA lol (like most people do, we all came from Africa at some time or another, just some of us have African lineage more recently or to a greater extent. But anyway, I get what you’re saying but since there is more genetic variability between people of the same phenotype “race” than there is between different races, I just think the classification is rather nonsensical.
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“Still, sometimes I think it’s just that the parents were lazy, and that perhaps warming up the kid’s backside a few times might have done wonders.”
I’m really, really anti-corporal punishment, don’t get much into it on this blog but the evidence suggests that it not only is less effective than other discipline types, it can actually make behavioral problems worse, along with long term effects. And plus, what does that really teach them “behave or I’ll hit you”?
What if we did the same to adults? Can you smack your employees if they don’t do what they want? Can you take a belt to some guy who’s annoying you at the bus stop? Nope, the only people that we’re allowed to hit whenever they misbehave are the smallest, most vulnerable people and I think it’s sick.
Speaking of ADD and ADHD, my son’s old pediatrician tried to get me to put my five-year-old (almost six) on Adderall because he’s hyper and has trouble concentrating sometimes. Nope. There’s enough drug addiction and mental issues in my family that I don’t think giving my tiny kid amphetamines is a good idea, at all. There’s a way better than even chance that he’ll have the genetic propensity for addiction, don’t agree with giving him highly abused drugs at such a young age. I’ve tried behavioral therapies and other things that worked really well so far. I’m not saying that ADD and ADHD aren’t real things or that some people need medication (I have a pharmacy of psychoactive drugs for me, lol) but I think people should be careful when we’re talking small children.
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I just don’t like it!
It’s rather tribal, exclusionary, etc….
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My favorite was when the white supremacist got his DNA tested and he ended up having like 18% sub-saharan African DNA lol (like most people do, we all came from Africa at some time or another, just some of us have African lineage more recently or to a greater extent.
Yeah, definitely had to put on the lollerskates there. : P
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But anyway, I get what you’re saying but since there is more genetic variability between people of the same phenotype “race” than there is between different races, I just think the classification is rather nonsensical.
I don’t see how that can be, Jack. Granted that there can be variability between people of the same “race,” but when we look at people of different “races,” then I can only say that on average there would be a greater amount of variability.
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Here: http://www.pbs.org/race/000_About/002_04-background-01-02.htm
Goes over some of this. Backs up what I’ve been saying, more variation between these subgroups than between the groups themselves. Most racial differences (not all) are just phenotype.
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Jack, I only know what I’ve read, and stories I’ve heard, but surely, on the whole, we prescribe too many drugs in this country.
I’m really, really anti-corporal punishment, don’t get much into it on this blog but the evidence suggests that it not only is less effective than other discipline types, it can actually make behavioral problems worse, along with long term effects. And plus, what does that really teach them “behave or I’ll hit you”?
For all I know it may be less effective, overall, and even counter-productive. I still think that in some families, it works when nothing else really does.
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What if we did the same to adults? Can you smack your employees if they don’t do what they want? Nope, the only people that we’re allowed to hit whenever they misbehave are the smallest, most vulnerable people and I think it’s sick.
The relationship between adults is rarely anything like parent and young child. Babies are born as little packets of pure self-interest. Almost all of us have ideas about how society should be, and there is a lot of learning that has to happen on the part of the individual for societies to function as we desire.
Yeah, they are the “smallest” because they start out really small…. Many times, negative reinforcement is going to be necessary to modify somebody’s behavior. That is not saying it has to be corporal punishment, but gotta be somethin’ goin’ on that the kid doesn’t like.
Time-outs, being sent to one’s room, loss of TV privileges, etc. – this will work with some kids, but not all. Sometimes you gotta light ’em up.
And really, among adults, it happens. Probably not much in white-collar boardrooms, but among the more blue-collar, the military, etc., oh yeah, physical punishment and other things that are not strictly legal or generally accepted by society go on all the time.
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Can you take a belt to some guy who’s annoying you at the bus stop?
This just cracked me up – I picture a Monty Python type of deal – it would probably be a rather innocent thing the guy did, and then the other dude whips off his belt and totally lays into the guy.
To be serious, I have never seen anybody do much bad stuff at a bus stop.
Now, then, other drivers….There, I say yes to corporal punishment, right on up through capital punishment. : P
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That’s because most human variation falls within, not between populations. About 85% of all genetic variation can, on average, be found within any local population, be they Swedes, Kikuyu, or Hmong. About 94% can be found within any continental population, consistent with what the Rosenberg Science study found. In fact, there are no characteristics, no traits, not even one gene that turns up in all members of one so-called race yet is absent from others.
Jack, very interesting read there, thank you. Fascinating stuff, and I can see that if we include the non-operative “junk DNA,” then it stands to reason that more differences could be hidden, than would be apparent to the eye, say.
Okay, so more variation occurs within populations than between them – no argument there.
However, that still does not disprove my thesis – that people of different “races” would still vary more from each other those of the same “race.”
As the article notes though, we have always been on the move.
Let us say we have populations of dark-skinned Africans in Africa, and light-skinned Caucasians in the US. The article says there is more variablity within the groups than will be found between them. Okay, I accept that.
Let us say we give that difference a number, a “95” since that is the percentage the article attributes to the variation found within the populations of continents. The difference between the populations is then only a “5.”
Now let us say we have dark-skinned African-Americans, and light-skinned Caucasians, both in the US. Here, it is not like there is a trade-off with offsetting factors or a “zero-sum” game.
It’s actually going to be additive, i.e. we are still talking about the population of a continent, and thus we have the “95,” but now we also have all or part of the “5” as well.
The only way this would not be operative is if all the continents had the exact same mix of the “genetic “footprints” indicating the continent from which an individual’s recent ancestors came.”
In essence, while we acknowledge the greater variation that can occur within populations, much greater than is present on the basis of “different race,” alone, when we compare different physical appearance within a population, that gives us the greatest variability of all.
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Okay, I was beaten near constantly as a kid so I am not exactly an impartial party on the corporal punishment deal, full disclosure.
But really, about all the evidence suggests that spanking is a “discipline” method that not only is less effective than others, it has far reaching negative consequences and can even perpetuate the behavior the parent is trying to correct. Generally, it is shown that the child tries to hide the behavior instead of correct it, and natural consequences and positive and negative reinforcement that doesn’t involve violence are superior methods. Even for those bad kids like me who “deserved” to be hit.
And plus I don’t see how it prepares them for society, at all. It just teaches that if you are bigger and stronger you can make others do what you want, thats a terrible message in my opinion. Never spanked my kids ever and I constantly get compliments on their behavior (except my three year old is having a tantrum phase which os normal).
I simply dont agree and never will that any child “needs” to be hit.
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“pro-lifers” are not helping their cause by stopping buses filled with illegal immigrant children and screaming at them like they did outside of San Diego recently. It was a disgusting display. I am not in favor of all these children coming across our borders illegally, but they had no choice as they are too young to realize what is going on, and were sent here by their parents. I have never seen such hypocrites as I did last week on the news when those buses were stopped, filled with children as adult pro life people screamed at them to get out of the country. Then you wonder why Obama got re-elected in 2012?
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T.J. Were the folks screaming at the children wearing items that said prolife? Otherwise, how can you say they are “prolife”? How do you know the screamers wouldn’t have rather these children been killed before birth?
I am prolife and don’t advocate screaming at anyone but I am embarrassed to admit that I have lost my cool with my own kids a time or two to the point of using swear words. Not okay.
Obama got reelected because he is a smooth talker and many didn’t take the time to educate themselves about him. Plus our country has sold the killing of children as a freedom and a right and people have been dumbed down for a long time.
They’re waking up now, though.
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“T.J. Were the folks screaming at the children wearing items that said prolife? Otherwise, how can you say they are “prolife”?”
Magical, mystical powers of stereotypes I am guessing. Stereotypes are great, they mean you don’t have to learn anything about individuals and can put them in a box (like pro-lifers = automatically hate immigrant children). Must be nice to live in a world where things are so simple and black and white.
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Okay, I was beaten near constantly as a kid so I am not exactly an impartial party on the corporal punishment deal, full disclosure.
Jack, I am sorry, and that is too bad. It’s easy to understand how you feel.
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But really, about all the evidence suggests that spanking is a “discipline” method that not only is less effective than others, it has far reaching negative consequences and can even perpetuate the behavior the parent is trying to correct. Generally, it is shown that the child tries to hide the behavior instead of correct it, and natural consequences and positive and negative reinforcement that doesn’t involve violence are superior methods. Even for those bad kids like me who “deserved” to be hit.
There is no way that you deserved it, that much. There is a difference between punishment and abuse.
Even time-outs, being sent to one’s room, etc., can have “far reaching negative consequences” if taken too far. “The child hides the behavior…” – dude, they try and hide stuff all the time, regardless of what the the punishment would be. ; )
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And plus I don’t see how it prepares them for society, at all. It just teaches that if you are bigger and stronger you can make others do what you want, thats a terrible message in my opinion. Never spanked my kids ever and I constantly get compliments on their behavior (except my three year old is having a tantrum phase which is normal).
I simply dont agree and never will that any child “needs” to be hit.
Perhaps, if anything, it is that the best methods are more time-consuming for the parent, then. That’s why the other methods are used…?
I believe that your kids are great, Jack. For that matter, our whole block in the 1960s and 1970s had great kids too, though, and I imagine that every one was spanked.
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Jack: Magical, mystical powers of stereotypes I am guessing. Stereotypes are great, they mean you don’t have to learn anything about individuals and can put them in a box (like pro-lifers = automatically hate immigrant children). Must be nice to live in a world where things are so simple and black and white.
Point taken, Jack, but as far as “a world where things are so simple and black and white,” look around at your fellow pro-lifers.
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“There is a difference between punishment and abuse.”
Don’t see it. If I slap someone (even lightly or on the butt because for some reason that’s an acceptable way to hit kids) or punch them I’m still committing violence against someone, it’s just a matter of degree. I don’t see the difference personally, maybe I’m just heavily biased but it all just seems like hitting to me.
“Even time-outs, being sent to one’s room, etc., can have “far reaching negative consequences” if taken too far. “The child hides the behavior…” – dude, they try and hide stuff all the time, regardless of what the the punishment would be. ; )”
Of course kids try to hide stuff, all the time. My daughter hid her brocolli under the sofa the other day, lol, to be literal. But the point is that corporal punishment teaches less about why the behavior is wrong or unacceptable, and more about “don’t do this or I will hurt you”.
http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx
Look it’s not just me, it’s the APA and other resources that are pretty clear this is a bad way to “discipline” children. There’s just not a good reason to use it over other methods of discipline.
And of course other discipline methods can be abusive or have negative consequences if taken to far, but most of them don’t have inherent problems like corporal punishment.
“Perhaps, if anything, it is that the best methods are more time-consuming for the parent, then. That’s why the other methods are used…?”
Of course. Consistently reinforcing a discipline method that doesn’t have the immediate results that hitting your kid until they stop the behavior is much more time consuming. But that’s not an excuse for doing it.
And people get angry and frustrated, and take their anger out by spanking. No one can convince me that this isn’t part of corporal punishment a lot, I’ve seen it when parents “spank” their kids over stupid kid stuff that doesn’t even deserve punishment, it’s just annoying normal kid stuff that you have to deal with.
Plus with other discipline methods you don’t have to worry about accidentally killing or injuring your child if you lose control or something. And there’s research linking certain sexual fetishes to spanking as well, so there’s THAT.
Nope, nope, nope. I think it should be illegal to hit anyone. Especially tiny humans.
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“Point taken, Jack, but as far as “a world where things are so simple and black and white,” look around at your fellow pro-lifers.”
Yes, but these are stereotypes directed at ME, and are therefor much more important and serious. ;)
I don’t like the stereotyping that goes on either side.
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“There is a difference between punishment and abuse.”
Jack (DLPL): Don’t see it. If I slap someone (even lightly or on the butt because for some reason that’s an acceptable way to hit kids) or punch them I’m still committing violence against someone, it’s just a matter of degree. I don’t see the difference personally, maybe I’m just heavily biased but it all just seems like hitting to me.
Jack, not to beat a dead horse (yuck yuck) but yeah, it’s gonna be a matter of degree, sure, but I’d say punishment is intended to affect the child’s behavior – as any discipline method is. Abuse is when it’s an emotional reaction on the part of the parent, and/or when permanent or semi-permanent harm is done. My opinion.
Spanking = not abuse, unless it is to such a degree that it’s abuse.
Hitting that causes bruises, broken bones, bruised ribs, black eyes, etc. = abuse.
On spanking, heck man, I was in Junior High School in the early 1970s, and those were the days of the wooden paddle or “board of education.”
In 7th grade, Mike Quinlan and I raced, to see who could get the most “whacks” by the end of the school year. Now, we started late, in the spring, so the totals weren’t world records or anything. He ended up winning, 48 to 46. Those were the days of wearing 7 pairs of underware….
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[…] has already had quite a summer, and it has only begun. On June 9 it made national news after an abortion proponent attacked another of its […]
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[…] the verbal and physical attack by a woman in downtown Columbus, Ohio, Created Equal’s Mark Harrington and Seth Drayer have […]
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Awesome post at 4pm DLPL!
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Thanks Prax, I really do not like getting into the spanking debate because it usually goes downhill fast but I really cannot stand it how people talk about how some kids “need” to be hit. They don’t.
“Jack, not to beat a dead horse (yuck yuck) but yeah, it’s gonna be a matter of degree, sure, but I’d say punishment is intended to affect the child’s behavior – as any discipline method is. Abuse is when it’s an emotional reaction on the part of the parent, and/or when permanent or semi-permanent harm is done. My opinion.”
It can be your opinion, if you wish, but the evidence on this one is clearly in my camp. Spanking has a lot of negative consequences, is less long term effective, and there is simply no reason to have it legal to hit people just because they are small and immature and you have authority over them.
“In 7th grade, Mike Quinlan and I raced, to see who could get the most “whacks” by the end of the school year. Now, we started late, in the spring, so the totals weren’t world records or anything. He ended up winning, 48 to 46. Those were the days of wearing 7 pairs of underware”
Wow, it sure sounds like corporal punishment encouraged good behavior! :)
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