UK pro-choice Left “can accept no opposing view”
by Kelli
The failure of this very modest amendment says a lot about the state of abortion politics in Britain.
The Left-wing establishment could not let it pass because it cannot tolerate the concept of any limit on access to abortion whatsoever. It proclaims that it wants abortion to be safe, legal and rare. But it regards abortion as a fundamental human right if not a positive assertion of a woman’s freedom to control her own destiny – and any attempt to constrict a human freedom is, obviously, a betrayal of that freedom in principle.
In trumpeting the right of abortion over any wider concerns about, say, its effects upon society, gender relations or (Heaven forbid) the welfare of the unborn child itself, the establishment Left has made its position as plain and bold as possible.
Abortion in all circumstances and for whatever reason is a-okay.
It is often suggested that pro-lifers are religious fanatics who won’t give an inch, while pro-choicers are moderate humanists. The situation is far more contrary than such clichés suggest….
The Left-wing establishment does not approach abortion with the sober minds of liberal pragmatists balancing one set of rights against another, but as fundamentalists who can accept no opposing view. The abortion industry has become their Moloch, and they will give it whatever it demands.
~ British blogger and historian Tim Stanley (pictured), discussing the failure of a sex-selection abortion ban in the UK, The Telegraph, February 27
[Photo via faculty.isi.org]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
So, let me get this straight – pro-lifers and pro-choicers have, for years, fought this fight with no room for middle ground. If you’re a pro-lifer and don’t fall right in step with EXACTLY how pro-lifers want you – and the same with pro-choicers – you’re attacked and demonized.
And then, we’re surprised when people don’t want to even talk about the subject (Churches have been the target in recent posts) or vote on any compromises (this post, house GOP)?
How are you people surprised by this? I mean, the biggest thing that surprises me on this board is how often times people are surprised by this stuff.
What makes you think we are surprised? We don’t put anything past someone who would even consider killing their unborn children. It is not surprise, we just have a hard time understanding how anybody can be so narcissistic that they have no conscience about killing unborn babies.
truth – was hoping to run into you.
One guy who was very vocal against Obamacare – he was a leader of a Sheriff’s group against it – he’s had a heart attack and his wife had had medical issues – and since he never got insurance, he now is begging people for $30K to help cover the costs.
http://www.gofundme.com/helpsheriffmack
Wanted to let you know as I’m sure you, Mary, and other conservatives are going to want to donate ASAP. Most of the donations I’m seeing are from liberals extending compassion to a guy who seemed to have so little compassion.
On your actual post – I rest my case.
Politicians, Churches, and 80-90% of the population run away from even talking about abortion exactly because of comments like that you just made.
So of course neither side is going to look for middle ground…
EGV,
FYI I have donated many times to such situations and have done so for years and continue to do so. I have no idea if these people I donated for were particularly compassionate or not or what their politics were.
You don’t get props for that Mary – that’s the type of system you support – a reckless abandonment of personal responsibility that relies on others to bail a person out.
Did you donate yet to him?
Ex-GOP,
Most people come to read this blog because we love the unborn as much as the born. All of us are brothers and sisters in the fight to make abortion a thing of the past. We are going to vary in our ideas about how to do that, our lifestyles, our politics, whatever.
Would you please refrain from criticizing others? It is IMHO becoming mean spirited. Leave it to Reality, ok?
I enjoyed the article. Worth clicking the link to read the whole thing.
Okay Sharon – I’ll try to say it in a more positive way.
It does not surprise me at all that politicians can’t find middle ground in the abortion debate. Pro-lifers have an uncompromising view of what is and isn’t acceptable, going to the point of massively demonizing a woman who wanted some rape language changed in a house bill. On the other side, pro-choicers in their blindness to make abortion seem like an oil change, have taken a radical stance that abortion is never bad at any point.
So on quotes like this, I’m only surprised at the surprise of others that the other side won’t compromise at all.
That better?
EGV,
I wasn’t looking for a round of applause. You raised the subject, I addressed it.
A system I support? Hasn’t your glorious fuehrer been running the show for the past 6 years??
“with no room for middle ground”
Would middle ground be babies that are half-dead instead of babies who are whole-dead?
“Politicians, Churches, and 80-90% of the population run away from even talking about abortion exactly because of comments like that you just made.”
Ex-RINO,
You are grubering all over this site.
The only ones who want to avoid the conversations about abortion are the pro-aborts. The extreme pro-aborts know that they are on the losing side of the conversation. The pro-choicers know have nothing to gain but shame for supporting the choice.
Pro-life politicians and churches welcome the conversation.
“Most of the donations I’m seeing are from liberals extending compassion to a guy who seemed to have so little compassion.”
Ex-RINO,
The liberals I see donating; rather than just giving an anonymous donation; are doing so just to take a dig at the poor man for needing help with his medical bills. They seem to take joy in the same way you seem to get joy out of his misfortune. Reading your posts is like submersing in swill.
Prax
Not really – but I think you know what I’m saying the pro-life and pro-choice crowds have end games that are incompatible with any sort of middle ground legislation. For instance, a lot of countries have middle ground type legislation – available and even paid for to a certain week limit, but more regulation/bans after that.
All I’m saying is it would be naive for a pro-choicer to be shocked that a pro-lifer doesn’t want to allow for abortions in some situations – and it’s naive for a pro-lifer to be shocked that a pro-choicer would allow bans of any kind. So the shock expressed in the quote of the day – I’m just shocked that they are shocked!
truth
But they are donating. As I watched earlier, it was about 10 to 1 people who disagreed with his stance.
I don’t understand how true conservatives aren’t p*ssed off over something like this. Here’s a guy that shunned all personal responsibility and now is looking for handouts. He could have afforded insurance, but skipped it to make a point, and now is stressed out (which is harmful to health) and begging society to bail him out.
Never thought I’d see the day when conservatives would say “yes – be reckless – society will pay for your mistakes – no problem!”
“now is stressed out (which is harmful to health)”
It is NOT charitable to donate five dollars just so that you can gloat and insult the man. You don’t really have a charitable bone in your body or you would give without the condemnation.
If Obamacare was really the answer this man could just buy it NOW. But the reality is Obamacare is a sham. You could add up all the five dollar donations from ‘Obamacare backers’ and it wouldn’t even cover the annual cost of a Silver Obamacare plan for one year let alone the ten thousand dollars in out of pocket copays and deductibles.
First off – if you were begging for money, you’d be a bigger fan of people who gave but didn’t agree with you, then those who agreed with you and sat on their wallets.
Secondly, he most certainly would not have spent $30K annually. Forbes has the average cost at about $350 with a deductible close to $5K. He would have been better off.
Your first sentence though is hilarious and you don’t even know it.
Universal care would be exactly what you want based on what you say is the answer.
Regardless, under Obamacare, he CAN go out and buy insurance today because discrimination against pre-existing conditions is outlawed. It wouldn’t go back and pay for old bills, but would over him forward.
The system YOU fight for would leave him will all his bills, and would DENY him future care because he now has pre-existing conditions.
So there you go again, arguing for universal care!
“Forbes has the average cost at about $350 with a deductible close to $5K.”
Ex-RINO, you just keep spreading your manure. Saying that the cost for this person with a serious illness would only be the ‘average’ cost.
truth –
See – and these are the kind of posts that make me think you shouldn’t be posting, because I have to go back to Insurance 101 to explain it to you.
Premiums are how much a person pays per month. The main thing affecting his premium rate is income, not health. Again, pre-existing conditions are not a factor in the pricing of plans.
In the world you support, the world you argue for – he would have skipped coverage with a pat on the back from you. When he had emergency care needed, he would have received those services (I believe you are a socialist when it comes to emergency care coverage) – and then if he couldn’t pay his bills, he would have declared bankruptcy, and the hospital that was stiffed the bill would have raised the rates to everybody else.
That’s what you argue for – don’t forget that.
“The system YOU fight for would leave him will all his bills, and would DENY him future care because he now has pre-existing conditions.”
Obamacare is/was a ‘terrible’ way to solve the pre-existing conditions problem. Obamacare in it’s current form will bankrupt more people due to medical care costs than pre-Obamacare. It takes away the financial security of the lower-to-middle class thousands of dollars annually that they otherwise could have put into savings or used to pay their energy bills or rent etc. It is a sham.
No it doesn’t, and if you understood healthcare, you’d know that already. But you’ve shown time and time and time again that you don’t understand healthcare.
Obamacare has out of pocket maxes – lifetime limits.
The system YOU argue for doesn’t have those limits. Family brings a severely challenged baby in the wold, and the system YOU argue for says “hey, here’s your lifetime cap – when you hit it, you are on your own”.
Again, maybe you are arguing for universal health care again – maybe you’d changed your position yet again. Would love to hear your thoughts on dealing with pre-existing conditions. Put everybody on an island?
“The main thing affecting his premium rate is income, not health -”
The only place you are a sensee of anything is in your own mind. You make things up and tell people they say things that they never said and then go into your fantasy land of teaching them health insurance 101. You need help. The premiums do not increase due to your health but the “OUT-OF-POCKET-EXPENSES” co-pays and deductibles do go up. How could a health care genius like you have failed to comprehend this?
truth
Of course if you use services and exceed your deductible, you will have out of pocket expenses.
Do you understand what a yearly out of pocket cap is?
Again though – the system YOU argue for is WORSE, and the solution you seem to be begging for is universal care.
Ex-RINO, You mischaracterize what people say and derail threads by grubering all over of this board. I apologize to all the people who have had to suffer reading your responses to my dialogues with you.
I’ll assume that’s the white flag that’s been pulled out. I would recommend you move on.
Let me give you a pointer though. Make sure when you debate something and you say something is bad, double check what you support to make sure it isn’t even worse.
You can sit on that pointer
“Most of the donations I’m seeing are from liberals extending compassion to a guy who seemed to have so little compassion.”
Some of the comments at that site are the furthest thing from compassionate.
“He could have afforded insurance”
Have you seen his bank account(s)? Maybe his choice was between making a house payment or paying the insurance. How do you know exactly?
“but I think you know what I’m saying”
Not too often actually.
Praxedes,
It is SO hypocritical that the same people who claim that conservatives have a war against women are unwilling to protect women in the womb. The people who are shocked by his still don’t understand that people who are open to killing the unborn have no consciences or scruples.
Prax –
If his bank account was so terrible that he couldn’t afford it, he likely would have received enough in subsidies to buy it.
Anyway, if you’re saying that he needed insurance, but couldn’t afford it, welcome to the “I don’t realize I’m arguing for Universal HealthCare club”. You and truth can be charter members!
Praxedes,
You are correct that Ex-RINO has no clue what this man’s financial status was or is. That is why he didn’t answer your question and he deflects with ‘likely would have received’ and blah blah blah.
The progressives can’t help but show their stripes. They are so incapable of compassion or charity that they only give any when they can gloat about it.
truth –
Arizona’s Jan Brewer took the medicaid expansion, so we can assume that he has at least a decent income.
If your argument though is that insurance is important, and that he might have not had enough money – then arguing for the position that you support is somewhere between dishonest and ignorant. You can pick.
Progressive are incapable or any real charity. But if they see a chance to gloat for a five dollar donation…
“if you’re saying that he needed insurance”
From the looks of the Go Fund Me site, he didn’t “need” insurance.
Prax –
And you and I both know that a healthcare system can’t be built like this.
Let’s face it – with healthcare, Dems win. GOP wins in other areas, but not healthcare. They used to be the party of personal responsibility – heck, Obamacare is practically a conservative’s plan (old school conservatives – not this scary type of new breed conservatives). But conservatives are losers when it comes to health care. They just are – they complain and whine and whine, and oh, do they whine – but they have no solutions. They just whine.
Oh, and they whine.
A LOT.
I’m not being mean – I just know a lot more about healthcare than you two do – I’m just being honest here. And I know that the GOP doesn’t have a credible plan, which is why there are a lot of conservatives scared that the Supremes will fail them and rule in their favor on this newest Obamacare case.
Good at whining – not good at solutions.
Bottom line of this thread.
Praxedes,
Progressives like Ex-RINO not only have no charity but then also love to bloviate. He is boasting a superior knowledge of health care but he doesn’t even know what a deductible is. Just look at this post from Ex-RINO this morning, and I quote;
“of course if you use services and exceed your deductible, you will have out of pocket expenses.”
This from the guy who is lecturing you about his superior knowledge of health care . ahahhahhahhah He doesn’t even understand that paying a deductible is an out of pocket expense. What a rube. He claims a mastery of health care expertise and doesn’t even understand the basics. Apparently he has never even had to pay for medical insurance. Either that or he is just really ignorant.
Bwah-hah-hah-hah…. The guy has no scruples though. Watch him change his story and redirect so he can keep pretending.
truth – if you have more questions/comments for me, let me know. If you want to just be done with this conversation, I really don’t blame you…
hah-hah-hah-hah-hah
I think truthseeker has run out of lines and is trying to lead the audience into laughter as a substitute. Can’t see it working.
Progressives really have no shame. You catch them being ignorant and call them out on it and they ask if you have any more questions for them. omg
truth
You haven’t called anybody out on anything substantial.
Again though, I’ve called you out regarding not understanding healthcare, not having any sort of alternative, whining, whining some more, and essentially arguing for universal healthcare.
Progressives really have no shame. – nothing to feel shame about.
You catch them being ignorant and call them out on it and they ask if you have any more questions for them. omg – LOL. That’s rich.
hah-hah-hah-hah.
Does anyone have any more questions of the bloviator?
No truthseeker, I have no questions for you at this time.
You can direct your questions to the self-ordained health care expert Ex-RINO instead. But don’t ask about anything too complex like deductibles or out-of-pocket expenses.
You can direct your questions to the self-ordained health care expert Ex-RINO instead. – at least I’d get a worthwhile answer. Not a dose of bloviating. Ex-GOP knows about a squillion times as much about the whole business than you do, that’s quite obvious.
But don’t ask about anything too complex like deductibles or out-of-pocket expenses. – if Ex-GOP did indeed mix some terms that’d be like a pinhead sized error compared to your barrow load.
You said ‘if’.
And the terms were not ‘mixed’. They were clearly used in context with the conversation at hand.
While claiming the ones the comments were directed towards didn’t understand basic health care 101. It turns out his lesson would have been more appropriate for bloviation 101
It is quite clear every time this topic arises that you are either ill-informed or deliberately misrepresenting the situation whilst Ex-GOP provides an accurate and rational approach to it.
So you agree with what he said then. Everybody is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions.
Everybody is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions, their own facts not so much.
It is the progressive way in the land where you rationalize that unborn babies are not human beings because they lack legal rights.
Only in a progressive mind are people entitled to their own facts like these; “of course if you use services and exceed your deductible, you will have out of pocket expenses.”
In the progressive mind where facts are just a colloquialism for lies and gruberisms.
“I just know a lot more about healthcare than you two do”
No doubt and being that is the case, would you please answer the following questions for me?
If there is only enough money at the end of the month to make either the rent payment or the health insurance payment, what payment should be made?
How much is the fine for not paying for health insurance?
How long can the health insurance fine be ignored before the ignorer is jailed?
How often should someone who has had pneumonia get a pneumonia shot?
Should a doctor use forceps during a delivery in order to show his/her intern how to use forceps? Should the bill reflect the use of forceps?
Does a doctor who the patient never saw but who is listed as the caregiver on the Visit Information form, get paid?
Is abortion healthcare?
I was just reading a few more comments from the left on the Go Fund Me site. I’m sure that at least a few of these folks work in healthcare.
Another question for you now, Ex:
Do you think that left-leaning healthcare providers that are capable of making comments such as those found on the Go Fund Me site are capable of being impartial when it comes to providing care to patients who disagree with them? Maybe the disagreeing sick folks will get the $5 dollar healthcare treatment.
In a so-called free country, I’m feeling a tad intimidated to voice my opinion anymore. Especially to those that know so much more than I do about healthcare.
Prax – sure – I’ll at least answer most of them.
If there is only enough money at the end of the month to make either the rent payment or the health insurance payment, what payment should be made?
– Rent. There’s no law saying that, but that’s my belief. With that being said, if your point is that healthcare is expensive and is a right for people, then the ‘too expensive’ argument is best answered with Universal Healthcare.
How much is the fine for not paying for health insurance?
– It increases the next few years, and is a percent of income. It also goes against a refund – it’s not really an issued fine – it’s pretty weak actually. I can’t answer without knowing the income level though.
How long can the health insurance fine be ignored before the ignorer is jailed?
– See – this is where right wing news fails people. The law specifically states somebody can’t go to jail for not paying. In fact, what’s crazy is, and you can look it up – the case to the supremes was almost thrown out because there really is no consequence to not paying. If a person has a refund, the government can withhold from that. That’s it. And there are hardship exemptions. So who gets fined? People who can afford healthcare, and skip it (to pass costs to the rest of us).
How often should someone who has had pneumonia get a pneumonia shot?
– I’m in the healthcare related industry, but not actually a physician – talk to your physician.
Should a doctor use forceps during a delivery in order to show his/her intern how to use forceps? Should the bill reflect the use of forceps?
– See above response
Does a doctor who the patient never saw but who is listed as the caregiver on the Visit Information form, get paid?
– See above response
Is abortion healthcare?
– I don’t know – Republicans had it in their healthcare plan for years. It still exists in healthcare plans. We regulate it in some states as healthcare. Answer probably depends on what your purpose is in knowing.
I’ll handle your second question in the next email – I appreciate the opportunity to help you with some of this info. I seriously am not trying to be an a*****e – I’m just saying that whenever I argue with you or truth on this, you guys don’t understand the laws much, and end up arguing for universal healthcare. I’m serious. You guys are bigger progressives than I am!
Your last question – most are – some might not be. Some physicians see blacks, gay people, white people, latinos, republican, democrats – you name it, and can’t be impartial.
Here’s the deal. This guy campaigned around saying that people shouldn’t get insurance – should just opt out. Now, due to his own reckless choices, he’s endangering his family’s stability – and if he was like most people and couldn’t pay these bills (he is well known, which is the only reason he’s coming up with the money) – the hospital would get stiffed, and to cover that money, they raise their rates on everyone else.
Conservatives used to be about personal responsibility. I can’t see this enough – the individual mandate was a conservative idea – it came from the Heritage Foundation years ago. So to see conservatives saying that people should skip out on their responsibility – just one more reason why I left the GOP. I hope to come back one day if they ever wise up.
“it’s not really an issued fine – it’s pretty weak actually”
“there really is no consequence to not paying”
Imagine that. Sounds like when my ex was court-ordered again and again to take a class or pay a bill or get the kids to practice, etc. He was never fined or held accountable — just empty threats. I was the one who ended up out of money because I would show up to court when I was told to, pay a lawyer when I was billed and do what I was court-ordered to do. Without any teeth in laws or orders, really what is the point? Other than that there are scums making money off of honest people who are doing everything possible to follow the law.
“I’m in the healthcare related industry”
What is your job title?
“See above response”
You will state that you believe rent should be paid before insurance but you have no opinion about someone being charged for the unnecessary use of forceps or a doctor being paid who the patient never even met? Ask the physician? You really are a hoot.
“Is abortion healthcare? – I don’t know –”
Proabort language through and through.
“he’s endangering his family’s stability”
No, he has not. His financial goal has almost been met. From what I can see, the only thing he has endangered is the idea that universal healthcare is an upgrade. Communities raise lots of money for their members who are less-known than the sheriff all the time.
Here’s the deal. Start reading the bulletin boards at your gas stations, grocery stores and taverns and find out who needs help in your community. Start a benefit for them. If you don’t feel like working at benefits, you can always pull out your wallet.
Prax
On the consequences – if I ran things, I’d make the penalty stronger. As it is, it is pretty weak – so when you were hinting people might get thrown in prison, that just isn’t the case.
On job
– I’m in operations – currently in project management. I’m clearly not a physician
On the forceps
I’ll be honest – I didn’t read the question – I skimmed it, saw that you had physician, and then skipped it thinking it was a medical question. Of course it shouldn’t be billed.
On the healthcare question
I find the question largely irrelevant – if somebody tells me what they’ll do with the answer, that is more helpful
I’ve answered all your questions – have I not? Next post – a few of my own.
Okay Prax – (or anybody else that wants to take a stab at it!)
Do you support EMTALA? That basically says that anybody in an emergency situation, or actively in labor, gets medical treatment regardless of ability to pay?
Do you believe somebody who can’t pay for medical services and has no coverage should receive non-emergency treatment? For instance, if somebody has cancer, should a facility be mandated to give them treatment even if they can’t afford it?
In 2012, the estimate for uncompensated medical care (never paid for) was roughly $49 billion. Should the federal government pay this tab, or should this shortfall be passed onto consumers through higher prices?
The ‘free market’ health care system of the US has us paying more then double what any other country in the world pays for medical care. Do you feel that statistically, the US approach is a failed experiment? If you don’t believe in Universal Care, what specifically do you think should be done?
Can you explain to me what the insurance death spiral is? Did you have to look it up?
Why would you want answers from me? So you can just continue insinuating how little I know in comparison to you? You are the expert on healthcare, remember? There’s nothing I can tell you because you already know what’s best for us all.
Abortion ain’t no healthcare doe. I know dat much.
Nice tie Mr. Stanley! I love those colors together!
Abortion ain’t no healthcare doe. I know dat much. – so you don’t support access to abortion for women whose lives are at risk?
Given that it is covered in some healthcare plans and is regulated within the same parameters as other healthcare activities it is healthcare.
Prax –
You seem to have strong feelings about how healthcare should or shouldn’t work. I know you are good at complaining about the system – I want to see if you have any ideas or feelings of how it should work? Don’t be lame. I answered all of your questions.
Ex-GOP: right back at you! And here’s one for you: an opportunity to help mothers in crisis who DON’T want an abortion, but are feeling pressured into one! http://www.youcaring.com/family-fundraiser/crisis-pregnancy-center-building-fund/310334#.VPTqJ_L2TLc.facebook
Who is Julie? Is that you Prax?
Still waiting…
Prax..
Tick, tock, tick, tock