Stanek weekend question: How should religious institutions handle out-of-wedlock pregnancies?
Jivin J reported last week on a teacher who was fired from a Christian school because she got pregnant while unmarried, which violated her contract.
In that mother’s case, the school displayed hypocrisy by allegedly inviting the father of her baby to take her job.
I’ve seen this up close and personal a couple of times. One church handled it abysmally, and one church handled it gracefully.
What do you think should be done in situations where an unmarried employee of a religious institution gets pregnant or gets someone pregnant?
Mar.16, 2013 8:13 am |
Weekend question |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Those in a place of leadership who are to be role models are biblically held to higher standards. If the organization truly embraces this then policy needs to reflect that and dismissal needs to occur.
We don’t know all the details of this story. One article states, “In a bizarre twist, the school reportedly went on to offer the pregnant woman’s job to her then fiance.”
Did the fiancee become a husband before he started working there? Was he required to sign the same contract before starting to work there? If he signed the contract after he was married, it is a whole different thing and he is not breaking the contract unless the contract said, “you must be a virgin.” If he started working there before he was married and the school knew he had a pregnant girlfriend and that the child was his, this would be blatant discrimination.
The article I read goes on to state, “Teri James, 29, told the news outlet that she did sign a two-page contract with San Diego Christian College that included a provision agreeing not to engage in “sexually immoral behavior including premarital sex.”
It doesn’t say that your sexual history must be as white as the snow.
“I needed a job in this economy and so I never thought that anything would happen,” James explained to “Today.””
Well, something did happen and she was held accountable. What would be the point of the contract if they didn’t expect accountability?
This smells of entitlement to me but I’d have to know more details that surround her husband’s hiring to know for sure.
Who is the woman in the painting holding the pregnancy test?
Idk how i feel about this. I mean if a job has a policy to dismiss then as Mary said policy follows. Example I live by the Cleveland Clinic..they have a no nicotine policy and they draw your blood. If a nurse is overweight they are given the option to follow a weight watchers program ..if caught smoking. NOW the cc is buying all of the hospitals in North East Ohio so if you dont go with the program your fired. But isnt this kinda why women abort? Loss of a job?
In this case she signed a contract and violated that contract. She should have resigned as opposed to making the school fire her. Why they would offer the job to the man who engaged in pre marital sex makes them look hypocritical for sure. It is unclear from the article if he accepted the position or got married. They get an F for their handling in my book.
Here is another issue related to this and we are in discussion about this right now. How do churches handle the onslaught of unmarried pregnancies of members. One friend is not pleased that there are an onslaught of baby showers in the church and it is celebrated giving into the idea that sex among unmarried and resulting pregnancy is no big deal and the abstinence message is outdated because all are having sex outside of marriage in this sex saturated culture. They also act like being a single mom is just fine like the father in the child’s life is purely optional. What message does this send.
I can see it both ways. I have a situation where the pastor of our small church came to me and said that he needed advice. A young unmarried girl who used to come regularly had stopped coming and he reached out to her to say she was missed. She told him she was pregnant and had few friends and needed a lot of help with the baby who was arriving soon. She asked for help. He did not know how to handle it and asked for my advice as the pro life liaison. As a church we do not want to wink at sex outside of marriage but we want to bless the baby and help the mother. She could have covered it up with an abortion. She has already made the decision to parent so adoption is off the table. I suggested I would hold a shower in my home for her and spoke privately to the women one on one explaining that we are not celebrating sex outside of marriage but she did make the choice for life and we want to support her and bless the baby.
My own daughter got pregnant as a teen and a friend held a shower for her saying the same thing. She was not trying to encourage teen sex but she was blessing the baby and supporting the mother who choose life. I agreed that is the way to handle it.
Oops my phone rang…if caught smoking youre fired.
Oops my phone rang…if caught smoking youre fired.
What a relief. I thought things were getting even more ridiculous in our country than they already are if one would have to go to Weight Watchers if they were a smoker!
I worked in a Christian school for many years and was also a parent of 3.I totally understand the desire to have teachers who are good role models for children and teens. However, no teacher is perfect as we are all human. School leadership are also to be role models of love and mercy. If a teacher has fallen pregnant outside of marriage and her job is on jeopardy would you rather she is sent off or even worse still aborts the child? What does this teach children? All it shows them is that sins should be covered up or hidden and they cannot be forgiven by God. Yes, it’s awkward, but handled properly it is an opportunity for grace to shine. It would require the teacher to have a repentant attitude and the students would need to know that. The world is full of children born in less than ideal situations, but each one is precious in the eyes of God. They are all to be welcomed, even if we do not condone the circumstances. Expecting good role models is great, restoring fallen role models is a demonstration of grace.
Hi prax…im serious. If a nurse employed at the Cleveland Clinic is a smoker they do not get hired. And if they have a weight problem ( by Ccs guidelines ) they have to lose weight! I was floored by that!!
If you were grandfathered in you may smoke in your car.
My phone internet and facebook are alk linked together…sometimes the phone rings through when im on line.
This is a tough one, and I think very related to abortion. (Heavy dose of my own personal opinion ahead, for what its worth, which isn’t much to most of you…).
I, personally, don’t believe many women, when setting their goals, say that they want to get pregnant and have an abortion. But pregnancy does happen – throughout history, women have had sex, and in many cases, become pregnant when they didn’t want to.
What happens next is a decision – and what I mean is, women weigh the pros and cons. Financial situation, college, work, goals, family structure – they look at the options in front of them and make a decision (and let’s just, for a moment, get past the rhetoric of this decision – yes, the decision is brutally murdering a baby or letting it live. My answer isn’t about the morality of abortion – it is about the reality of it).
It seems to me that there’s a couple of strong indicators that will drive the option towards abortion. One is money – health care is expensive, day care is expensive, loss of wages is tough. A lot of factors there.
Secondly – support. Who will be there to help? Has the “father” disappeared? Family? Friends? Church? Who will be there to help in raising the child?
Sexual sins are an easy target for churches and Christian institutions because they are visible. How many times have we heard of people fired in these situations because of pride? How many times have churches shunned people of greed? What about gossip? I’ve never seen it – never heard it – but pregnancy – that’s a different story.
I, personally, think that every time Christian institutions lead with shame and not love, that the end result is a better chance for abortion.
Now, I’m not saying that personal conduct doesn’t matter – but again, I think it is interesting to see what sins people get riled up about, and what ones they don’t – and how much they lead with shame and judgement compared to love, support, and restoration.
Aaagh cant focus today if a nurse who applies for a job at the CC she will not be hired if she is a smoker
If the employee knows and believes that premarital sex is sinful, then it’s not a big deal. Just let mercy and grace cover the situation, and move on. We are all constantly in need of forgiveness.
The problem is that quite often, people in situations like this refuse to admit that what they did was actually sinful. And when that’s the case, it’s a no-win for all parties involved. Certainly, the employee does not want to be fired, but she may not want grace or mercy either, because forgiveness implies that she did something morally wrong, which she does not believe she did. We live in a culture where any talk of sin, guilt, and repentance is automatically labeled “unloving.” And so Christian organizations find themselves in a bind. If they say premarital sex is no big deal, then sin just gradually grows. If they come down hard on premarital sex, they get accused of being harsh and condemning.
People don’t like being in the wrong. They crave personal affirmation. They want to be told that their mistakes are not really mistakes, but just personal choices which others are too narrow minded to accept. We all want to be like the Pharisee, thanking God that we’re not like other people, and none of us want to be like the tax collector, begging God to forgive a miserable sinner. And it’s so heartbreaking, because God, and most of the church really is ready to forgive any sin, and let it be in the past. But still, so many wished to be loved because of who they are instead of loved despite who they are.
There is a danger within the pro-life movement to become so reflexively concerned with the danger that a woman might abort her child that we blind ourselves to other moral realities for which the churches are responsible.
Certainly the specter of losing her job might lead a woman to abort her child, and that’s the elephant in the room on this thread. While this is a distinct possibility, it needn’t be all-or-nothing. Certainly, if the school were to dismiss the teacher it could do so in a way that helped her to be able to find employment elsewhere, helped her with some material needs, offered her severence pay and continuation of medical benefits for a time.
The point here is that the school’s first priority is the moral formation of its children. Teachers teach not only by their sound classroom pedagogy, but by the moral witness of their lives. Children cannot view the teacher in compartmentalized fashion, and conflate the immoral with the kind and popular elements of the teacher’s personality.
This, or course, leads to an examination of the teacher’s responsibility toward her students and her employer. If she is going to bring the child into the world, will she marry the baby’s father? If so, she ought not be dismissed. A common sin is rectified by entering into holy matrimony for the sake of the child as well as the parents. It should never be the sin that leads to termination of employment in these situations, but the decision to engage in a persistently immoral alternative lifestyle.
If the teacher doesn’t know the father, or hooked up in a bar, then there is probably an alternative lifestyle well underway and a rank hypocrisy of a teacher who holds herself out to the children, their parents, and the school administration as living a life that she indeed does not. It’s called hypocrisy, and the church has every right to terminate her employment.
If we in the pro-life community are so concerned that the child might be aborted in such a case that we would blind ourselves to the needs and desires of the entire school and church community, then we are allowing ourselves to be held hostage by one moral value to the exclusion of all others. The problem, then, is with us, and is one of a serious spiritual imbalance, bordering on idolatry
If the teacher cannot or will not marry the father, is leading a duplicitous life, and would kill the child, then we have all the information that we need to suggest her employment at that school was a bad fit from the start.
Of course, hiring the baby’s father in the mother’s place is even more odious and invalidates the church’s claim to the moral high ground.
Gerard –
What other sins would you advocate firing for – or stronger yet, would you think that a Christian organization should be obligated to fire somebody so that the moral formation of individuals is not compromised?
If somebody asks for a raise that seems out of line, should they be fired for being greedy?
If an employee goes to the boss and talks about another individual, and various claims are exaggerated or unsupported, is the organization obligated to fire that person for gossip or lying?
If a person ranks themselves highly in an annual review, or brags about a job well done, should pride be their downfall?
I’m not dismissing what you wrote, and you obviously can’t even answer those questions – the realities are more complicated with other sings.
And that is my point – how do these organizations differ between the more overt sins and other sins, and where do we draw the line?
I mean, some Christians would argue that a person that shops at Wal Mart or buys certain products should be fired – would you support that?
In the Gospels, for every one time Jesus mentions sex, he mentions poverty seven times… I say sack ’em if they don’t sell all that they have and give to the poor (but then most of us would be out of a job I fear)
“In the Gospels, for every one time Jesus mentions sex, he mentions poverty seven times… I say sack ‘em if they don’t sell all that they have and give to the poor (but then most of us would be out of a job I fear)”
Lol I like this. I always wondered why some Christian churches were SO harsh about sex “sins” and didn’t seem to care about greed and uncharitable people, which it seems to me from reading the NT that Jesus cared about those sins quite a bit. And I don’t remember him telling the adulteress that she needed to be shunned, he seemed like she was forgiven. I don’t get it. I’m fond of Jesus’s teachings even if I don’t believe the theological side, and I don’t get where people get all this shaming and judgement and still say they are acting Christ-like.
I have seen some churches and Christians that beautifully handled making sure that people knew they believed behavior was wrong while still offering love and support, but I’ve met the opposite of that too. It’s not pretty.
We need fewer cases like this. One way is to form more “Virginity Clubs.” I saw representatives of a “Virginity Club” on a talk show. To be a member, you must never in your life had engaged in either vaginal or anal sex. By having social groups that only virgins can join, we will make it more likely people will stay virgins.
Of course, that definition does allow a bit of leeway. The people in the club haven’t necessarily abstained from every possible sex act. However, they have abstained from sex acts most associated with major consequences, both in pregnancy and disease transmission.
Holding someone to their contract is not shunning or shaming them, it is holding them accountable.
Maybe this case is not an entitlement one but rather a “gotcha” one. If it is found that the school did offer the father a job after firing the mother and while he was still having premarital sex, I believe the school should be held accountable.
I mean, some Christians would argue that a person that shops at Wal Mart or buys certain products should be fired
I have never heard anyone argue this. How many Christians have you heard argue this, Ex-GOP? Has anyone else here heard people argue Walmart shoppers should be fired?
I always wondered why some Christian churches were SO harsh about sex “sins” and didn’t seem to care about greed and uncharitable people,
I have found that many of those with the most sex “sins” are also greedy and uncharitable. Do I need to make a list of the problems revolving around the sex “sins”?
I’m fond of Jesus’s teachings
This is great Jack but if you are going to use some of Jesus’s teachings to make a point, make sure you learn more about His other teachings as well.
On the one hand, this teacher broke her contract. Also, as a Christian teaching in a Christian school, she set a poor example by defying clear teachings of God’s word. Thus her contract was properly terminated.
On the other hand, the man they hired also defied what the Bible says. Whether or not he was previously working for the school with a contract, or not, isn’t really the issue. A Christian school should not be hiring someone who has had premarital sex especially if their contract is against that, and especially when they just fired someone for that.
The school is indeed hypocritical for doing hiring this man. It reminds me of those who brought to Jesus a woman caught in the act of adultery. The men wanted to know if they should stone her to death, as their law would have allowed.
Where was the man whom she had been caught in the act with? He was an adulterer too. No wonder Jesus said that the one among them who was without sin should cast the first stone, at which they all were compelled to leave.
Jesus told the woman that no one else condemned her and He wouldn’t either. Yes, He also told her to go and sin no more. But it is clear that He was also telling those men, and by extension the adulterous man, that they should go and sin no more as well.
The school honored its contract by firing the woman. They dishonored the spirit if not the letter of its contract, dishonored her, dishonored themselves, and frankly dishonored God by hiring the man who was every bit as guilty as he was according to the Bible which a Christian school should honor even more than any contract.
Like the men who wanted to throw the stones, they showed a lack of compassion for this woman. Then they rubbed it in her face by hiring the man. Very disappointing. They should seek repentance and forgiveness.
“Holding someone to their contract is not shunning or shaming them, it is holding them accountable. ”
I think the controversy is where the line is between holding someone accountable and just punishing them.
“I have found that many of those with the most sex “sins” are also greedy and uncharitable. Do I need to make a list of the problems revolving around the sex “sins”?”
No, you don’t need to list them, I’m well aware. My point was that it seems weird to me the reaction people have to sexual mistakes as compared to most other mistakes. I don’t see people talking about the horrors of not giving time and money to charity near as much as I see them decrying all forms of non-marital sexual activity, and even some forms of marital sexual activity. I simply don’t see why sexual sins are so much worse, hold so much more stigma, and are given consequences that other sins (that are talked about in the Bible just as much) are near given a free pass.
” This is great Jack but if you are going to use some of Jesus’s teachings to make a point, make sure you learn more about His other teachings as well.”
Tell me what I am missing then. I am actually curious how people see these issues.
Actually, as an addendum to my previous comment, I do think that the Catholic Church actually does pretty good with the charity thing, most of the missions and other charitable agencies down here are Catholic, and charity seems to be pretty ingrained in being a good Catholic. So that particular beef of mine might be more with Protestant churches, though I don’t know how Catholics who don’t do charity are viewed or treated within their churches as compared to those who commit sexual sins.
fyi
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH SECOND EDITION
III. MORAL LIFE AND MISSIONARY WITNESS
2044 The fidelity of the baptized is a primordial condition for the proclamation of the Gospel and for the Church’s mission in the world. In order that the message of salvation can show the power of its truth and radiance before men, it must be authenticated by the witness of the life of Christians. “The witness of a Christian life and good works done in a supernatural spirit have great power to draw men to the faith and to God.”88
2045 Because they are members of the Body whose Head is Christ,89 Christians contribute to building up the Church by the constancy of their convictions and their moral lives. The Church increases, grows, and develops through the holiness of her faithful, until “we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ.”90
2046 By living with the mind of Christ, Christians hasten the coming of the Reign of God, “a kingdom of justice, love, and peace.”91 They do not, for all that, abandon their earthly tasks; faithful to their master, they fulfill them with uprightness, patience, and love.
The reason for the disproportionate emphasis on sexual “sins” may be that this is the area in which human beings are most likely to be weak. Sexual sins may be seen as more superficially attractive than greed.
Tell me what I am missing then. I am actually curious how people see these issues.
I won’t be doing that anymore, Jack. You can search for yourself if you want and maybe you’ll start seeing things a bit more clearly. I have talked with you before about things and think I even recommended a book or two to you that you’ve agreed to look into. I never hear anything back about what you are or are not learning.
I don’t know how Catholics who don’t do charity are viewed or treated within their churches as compared to those who commit sexual sins.
You forgot to put the quotes around the word sin after the word sexual in the above sentence. Oops.
You’ve also stated that you wouldn’t have minded if your wife looked at porn while you were married but then you go on to tell how abusive she was. Do your children get to see their mother at all? If so, how often?
frankly dishonored God by hiring the man who was every bit as guilty as he was according to the Bible which a Christian school should honor even more than any contract.
Can you link to the article that says the school hired the man, Victor?
Does anyone know who the woman in the painting is? Where did the photo come from?
” I won’t be doing that anymore, Jack. You can search for yourself if you want and maybe you’ll start seeing things a bit more clearly. I have talked with you before about things and think I even recommended a book or two to you that you’ve agreed to look into. I never hear anything back about what you are or are not learning. ”
I’ve learned a lot by talking to you and others on this site actually. I’ve been around two years, have softened my position on lots of issues (I actually have more respect now for Christianity than I ever did before, mostly due to some of you folks). I’m sorry that you don’t feel that I have learned anything or whatever. I haven’t read those books yet, I do admit, I’m not the best reader.
” You forgot to put the quotes around the word sin after the word sexual in the above sentence. Oops. ”
That’s because I don’t really consider it wrong to sleep with someone you married anyway a few months later. Maybe it would have been better if they had gotten married first, but it’s not like they were sleeping with different people.
” You’ve also stated that you wouldn’t have minded if your wife looked at porn while you were married but then you go on to tell how abusive she was. Do your children get to see their mother at all? If so, how often? ”
I don’t understand how me not particularly caring if she had looked at some porn equals me not being able to care when she was abusive. I’m not really seeing the connection, but you seem to be suggesting I’m a hypocrite for caring about one but not the other? My kids see their mom Wednesday nights and Saturdays, unless she requests to keep them longer or on different days which I usually oblige especially if she wants them to see their grandparents. Again I’m not sure what this has to do with anything.
Jack,
My point was that it seems weird to me the reaction people have to sexual mistakes as compared to most other mistakes. I don’t see people talking about the horrors of not giving time and money to charity near as much as I see them decrying all forms of non-marital sexual activity, and even some forms of marital sexual activity. I simply don’t see why sexual sins are so much worse, hold so much more stigma, and are given consequences that other sins (that are talked about in the Bible just as much) are near given a free pass
Let me put on my theologian’s hat. Ahem.
The reason sexual sins are so important is because they are reflective of the head of the snake of all other sins. Namely, it’s reflective of disobeying the First Commandment – having no other gods than God.
Throughout the Old Testament, Israel is pictured as God’s Bride, and any disloyalty is equated with infidelity. The same goes for the Church in the New Testament.
There’s been a lot of talk about the contract between the school and the teacher. For Christians there is talk of the Old and New Covenant (Contracts). And extrra-marital sex is a symbolic as well as an actual violation of the future Marriage and the current (at least prospective) marriage in this lifetime.
Hans – yes, they are important. But so are sins of money, because they show a dependence on worldly things rather than putting that faith and trust in God. And so are sins of the tongue – gossip and slander – if you take out lessons about money, treatment of the poor, and guarding one’s tongue, a large chunk of the Bible would have to be axed.
I’m not saying sexual sins are not important – but I sure would have a hard time elevating them above other sins, to get to the point of saying those certain sins should matter to employers while others don’t.
I think another easy thing about sexual sins is because it often is “those” people – easy to point a finger. Harder to point on things like greed and pride, since those are such matters of the heart…but how many people are without fault in those areas?
Prax -
Members of this board have said shopping at certain places is an evil – Paladin and I had a great conversation on that once. For instance, some places mistreat workers. Some have abortion coverage in employee plans for workers.
If a Christian university found that one of their employees was donating to Planned Parenthood, should we axe them?
What if they went on a Susan G Kolman breast cancer walk – should we fire them?
Members of this board have said shopping at certain places is an evil
This is what you said, “some Christians would argue that a person that shops at Wal Mart or buys certain products should be fired.” Have you ever heard any Christian argue that a person that shops at Walmart or buys certain products should be fired?”
Years ago, I applied for a job at a private school. I was not yet married but had a small child. I did not get the job and was just told they selected someone else. I remember being upset because in my mind I thought I was more qualified than the person they hired. At the time I did not recognize my thinking errors, my sins, nor my arrogance. I was just huffy that I did not get what I wanted and felt entitled to. The school had every right not to hire me. Maybe I should have sued?
you seem to be suggesting I’m a hypocrite for caring about one but not the other
It is you who used the word, not me. Pray about it and it might become clearer to you.
” It is you who used the word, not me. Pray about it and it might become clearer to you.”
What’s your issue? You obviously have some problem with me at the moment since you brought up my personal life on a thread that had nothing to do with it.
At the time I did not recognize my thinking errors, my sins, nor my arrogance.
I’m sure there are times when I still am missing much, much in the above sentence.
Seriously, Prax, what do my ex or my kids have to do with this thread? I hate it when people bring stuff up like that for no apparent reason and then won’t tell you why. Drives me crazy.
Why do sexual sins get so much attention?
Simple, because they are precisely the sins that are most commonly declared to be not sins at all, or even positive goods. Sure, you can dig up a few cranks who think the poor should be left to freeze or starve to death, but by and large just about everyone agrees that caring for the poor is a good thing. In contrast, check out this report from Pew about sexual morality: http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2010/12/20/files/2010/10/Marriage.pdf The numbers on moral acceptance of premarital sex are absolutely brutal, and they haven’t gotten any better since the study was conducted in 2007
“I don’t get where people get all this shaming and judgement and still say they are acting Christ-like”
“it seems weird to me the reaction people have to sexual mistakes as compared to most other mistakes”
The problem is people always look at the way Christ treated repentant sinners and then say that unrepentant sinners should be treated the same. That would be an abdication of our duty as Christians to try to lead unrepentant sinners (who don’t feel they’ve even done anything wrong, or who in the same breath say, “what I did is not as bad as this other sin”) away from sin. Jesus was very clear in multiple passages that leading others to sin, enabling them in their sin, or not urging them to turn away from sin makes you complicit in the sin. You will be judged as harshly as they are in the end and it will be the opposite of a defense to say that you made them feel good about sinning by being super duper nice to them. Our confused world thinks that’s love, but it’s actually a form of indifference and hate.
” The problem is people always look at the way Christ treated repentant sinners and then say that unrepentant sinners should be treated the same. That would be an abdication of our duty as Christians to try to lead unrepentant sinners (who don’t feel they’ve even done anything wrong, or who in the same breath say, “what I did is not as bad as this other sin”) away from sin. Jesus was very clear in multiple passages that leading others to sin, enabling them in their sin, or not urging them to turn away from sin makes you complicit in the sin. You will be judged as harshly as they are in the end and it will be the opposite of a defense to say that you made them feel good about sinning by being super duper nice to them. Our confused world thinks that’s love, but it’s actually a form of indifference and hate.”
No, I actually do get the difference between the unrepentant and repentant thing. I just wonder where the line is between loving correction or being overly harsh. Like, if there’s a pregnant unmarried young woman in your church, she knows that she screwed up and feels bad about it. Does she need more sanction or how do you deal with that situation? I know some people think it’s wrong to give baby showers to unmarried mothers even if they are repentant. Is that right? And it really does seem to me that people see these sins as worse, than a lot of others, but what Hans said makes some sense I guess. I still think greed could be considered putting money and material possessions over God, which seems like it would be breaking the 1st Commandment too.
In this situation with this woman who got fired, it appears she got married soon after getting pregnant. Isn’t that what you are supposed to do if you commit a sin? Realize you did something wrong and try to rectify it? So it seems like the school could have made their point about morality better if they had hired her back after she got married. I don’t think that would have been condoning the immoral action (having non-marital sex) but rewarding the moral one (getting married to the person you slept with).
Hi Jack, the Bible says sexual sins are a sin against your own body. I also think because sex has the power to create new human life it is taken very seriously by God. God wanted children raised by a mother and father because it is best for the child. When people misuse sex we see a whole bunch of societal ills.
I went to a very strict fundamentalist Christian college. The faculty were supposed to be role models. So I have a hard time feeling sorry for this woman. She signed a contract. I would HOPE that if she was hired at a Christian college she was professing to be a Christian (and really was). I would hope that she would realize that sexual sin is not unforgivable (David’s sin with Bathsheba) and would repent and return to fellowship with God. And I second whoever said maybe the university could help her find a new job and help her with baby items etc…There is no need to be uncharitable but she should not continue to work in a place as a role model for young people when clearly she is not repentant of her immorality (I base this on her accusatory attacks on her former employers). She seems to take no responsibility for her poor choices.
When faculty sin that could be a time to talk to the students about making godly choices and how even when we sin God can forgive and restore us. This could have been a good teaching opportunity.
i think Phillymiss said it beautifully.. Too many people want to excuse what they did instead of owning up, apologizing, getting right with people and God and moving on.
“There is no need to be uncharitable but she should not continue to work in a place as a role model for young people when clearly she is not repentant of her immorality (I base this on her accusatory attacks on her former employers). She seems to take no responsibility for her poor choices.”
Yeah, if that’s what they are doing that makes sense. I do think that it might be an even better teaching opportunity (since she got married) to show the kids that you can start getting right with God by doing the moral thing, getting married to the father of the baby. I think it would be a good lesson in that everyone screws up, but nothing is unforgivable and you can rectify your mistakes somewhat by doing what is right after you make a mistake. And I haven’t seen if she sued before or after her now-husband was offered a job. If it was before, I can see your point with being unrepentant, but after? He committed the exact same sin. how does that show kids any better than if she came back to work after getting married?
Jack – Jesus, without the “theological side,” is either a liar or a lunatic.
“Jack – Jesus, without the “theological side,” is either a liar or a lunatic”
I have no idea how to answer that whatsoever.
Sydney. well put. i had to go yesterday couldnt get posts to come out right due to phone ringing work n tons of of other things.
Jack,
Well, it’s true. He didn’t claim to be only a good teacher or philosopher. He claimed to be the Same “I Am” that spoke to Moses through the burning bush.
” Well, it’s true. He didn’t claim to be only a good teacher or philosopher. He claimed to be the Same “I Am” that spoke to Moses through the burning bush.”
Tbh it’s hard for me to reconcile the fact that I do genuinely like a lot of Jesus’s teachings and think he’s pretty much awesome but I can’t seem to convince myself he’s God. Or that God exists.
Well, God believes you exist. That’s half the battle. ;)
CS Lewis wrote that Jesus could be doing only 1 of 3 things: telling the truth, telling a lie, or he was crazy. I think that’s what Lifejoy meant.
What if the school offered the father the job so that the family would still have the income? The father didn’t sign or violate a contract yet, so it’s not as hypocritical as it looks. Maybe?
Ex, the woman didn’t allegedly sign a contract not to be greedy. However, unethical employees often lose their jobs when their unethical actions are discovered, such as embezzling. Just because Jesus preached forgiveness doesn’t mean you should let an employee steal money because holding him accountable would be “judgmental.”
The way humans are constructed may mean that we are especially likely to fall prey to sexual “sins.” It is also possible that this area in emphasized because so often people believe — wrongly — that it only affects the individuals who engage in sex acts.
Of course it does not. Some sex acts can lead to pregnancies which lead to abortions and to children being brought up in circumstances likely to produce criminality or mental illness. It also leads to babies placed for adoptions which is not a good thing but I will not say why. You can look up yourself the special problems of adoptees.
Sex also transmits diseases, at least one of which is currently potentially fatal.
My friend Yuri Nesterenko, founder of the Anti-Sexual Stronghold and an atheist, thinks we must de-emphasize sexuality because it puts passion above intellect, the quality that most distinguishes humans from other animals.
Hmm… Tricky situation. I worked in a Catholic School in UK. We had all kinds of people working – married, cohabiting, gay, different religion, you name it. We even had an openly gay “married” teacher as the Co-ordinator for Religious Education… My mom was horrified when I told her that, as where we come from only people who aren’t openly living a sinful life would be allowed to work in a Catholic school. I don’t know what’s worse – having people who live in mortal sin teach children about God and morals or running an establishment like a “religious police” – where anybody who can be proven of sinful behavior is fired… Seems like 2 extremes, but how to find that golden middle?
Jack-
I know that feel, bro.
ninek,
What if the school offered the father the job so that the family would still have the income? The father didn’t sign or violate a contract yet, so it’s not as hypocritical as it looks. Maybe?
That’s kinda been my interpretation of things from the start.
Sometimes when id go to the aborton clinic people of different religions would throw digs at each other. My dad was a protestant n my dad was Catholic. I just identify with being Christian. I didnt much like the tension when people would argue. we had an athiest in our group. He never told us not to believe in God but hed make it clear that he was not interested in conversion. As long as we were all there to save unborn babies it didnt mattter to me.
Oops my mom was a protestant
Prax – I think that’s Mary mother of Jesus photo shopped…..
Did I miss a punch line with that?
Good discussion here on an important topic, at least for Christians. We had basically the same discussion in our apologetics class today.
I’m of the opinion that certain sins are looked at as more repulsive than others depending on what percentage of people commit them within the church. 100% have lied, 50%+ get divorced, 20-40% experience unplanned pregnancy in some way through someone, 10-25% experience homosexual behavior in some way through someone. All depending of course.
However the Bible does specifically talk about sexual sin, but i haven’t studied it deeply yet.
Jack ~ I’m glad you’re honest – it should be hard for you to reconcile, because it’s impossible. It’s hard for me to reconcile that you could believe that the human spirit is confined to the accidental physical world. God exists, but He might not be who you think He is or who you want Him to be. He’s far greater than that.
In my opinion, Christian employees of Christian institutions who get pregnant out of wedlock or through other inauspicious circumstances should be treated with nothing but compassion, love, and grace. If Christians want to be an example of Christ to the world, we need to exemplify Christ’s love. The school’s decision to dismiss this employee is contrary to Jesus’ teachings and is thus, by it’s very nature, hypocritical, even if the school hadn’t increased the depth of their hypocrisy by offering the job to her fiance. It’s disgusting to argue that abortion is murder and then to punish someone who does NOT abort an unplanned pregnancy, particularly by depriving her or him of the means by which he/she makes a living. The school should apologize to this woman and to the student body for failing to show even the faintest modicum of Christian compassion.
“I’m of the opinion that certain sins are looked at as more repulsive than others depending on what percentage of people commit them within the church. 100% have lied, 50%+ get divorced, 20-40% experience unplanned pregnancy in some way through someone, 10-25% experience homosexual behavior in some way through someone. All depending of course.”
Actually I think you have a great point here, Jamie. People do tend to judge more harshly those who commit sins that they themselves haven’t committed. And the more pervasive an activity is the less condemnation it’s going to get.
Religious institutions should welcome out of wedlock pregnancies with extreme charity, mercy, and openness. Welcome them. Welcome them. She/he/(they) is(are) not a criminal(s), she/he is a victim – a victim of the culture wars, a victim of misinformation. Even if she is deceitful, and is purposefully flaunting the rules she agreed to – welcome her still, and all the more. Drown her with love and support – and see what happens. This is the time to increase the love, not to turn it off. Show her Christ’s mercy and the ideal Christian you want her to be.
She/he is not a Catholic or Christian pro-abort politician. Unlike these politicians, if this is intentional she is not corrupting others as much as she is corrupting herself.
In fact, give her a raise.
Perhaps someone can explain because there are indeed times when im not clear on sin and iif one holds a higher degree of punishment then another. For example…stealing food at a store vs child molestation. Do we love and forgive child molesters? Sometimes religion confuses me but i do know that many of my sins were awful. ive always believed that God takes some of the worst and turns us around. Most people who became christians were at one point in life terrible people .That is why I believe a lot of people have a huge misconception that christian. people believe they are better walking around like perfect snobs with their noses in the air. not me. i try to help others.
Also, kudos to the school for having such a policy and contract. The contract is a good idea. It just shouldn’t be executed in the way it was. This is a teaching moment for everyone in the school.
Sorry for my typos..typing from a small phone
“Also, kudos to the school for having such a policy and contract. The contract is a good idea. It just shouldn’t be executed in the way it was. This is a teaching moment for everyone in the school.”
That’s why I think it would have been cool if they had let her keep the job on the stipulation that she get married, at the very least. Could have been a good lesson in forgiveness and mercy and doing the right thing after making a mistake.
Heather, I do think it’s possible to forgive someone for doing something terrible (like child molestation) but realize that they aren’t safe to be around and need to be kept from harming others.
And this teacher became weak in her flesh…happens to me a lot. Policy isnt always fair but I do hope she finds another job.
I agree Jack but you and i are both parents. If someone molested one of our kids do we say I must forgive you and love you but do we/can we really mean it?
Idk Heather, even thinking about my kids being hurt like that makes me absolutely furious so I figure it would take a long, long time before I would be able to come close to forgiving someone who did something like that. I think I have mostly forgiven people who have done things against me, though, so I don’t think it’s completely impossible to forgive those types of people.
When it comes to my kids though, it would be incredibly difficult.
If someone stole 50$ from me i would be ticked off but i could say i forgive you…and i could mean that but i wouldnt trust them around my money or in my home again.
Jack I agree with you on this one, except I don’t agree with your stipulations. No stipulations are necessary.
This woman is about to fall away, it is the time to catch her.
“Jack I agree with you on this one, except I don’t agree with your stipulations. No stipulations are necessary.”
I personally don’t agree with any stipulations, I was just throwing it out there as a compromise for people who think that she needs to bear consequences.
In today’s culture, where abortion is so prevalent and so easy to be obtained and she had so much to personally lose by going through with this pregnancy she should be applauded by this school for keeping this baby.
The more I think about this the more I become I annoyed with this school’s reaction. They are almost acting as bad as the hypocritical Catholic and Christian pro-abort politicians, basically saying “I am personally Christian, but publicly I am not.”
While I understand and sympathize with Dr. Nadal’s points I disagree with them (and his take on their actions is about the most reasonable defense this school could possibly espouse.)
I should add this woman should drop the lawsuit – that is a bit much on her part. She signed the contract. If she didn’t like the contract she shouldn’t have signed it. This lawsuit is just as shameful as the school’s reaction. Basically, these eye-for-an-eye actions by both the school and this woman are what Jesus tried to teach us to avoid doing.
I hadnt seen where she had filed a lawsuit. I wonder how it will go. Im divided here. Would it have made a difference if shed married the guy and kept the pregnancy quiet until then? Indeed policy is policy but as ive stated sometimes this is a huge reason for women aborting. Society will say they dont discriminate against pregnancy in the work force awww but indeed they do. If 2 women meet the same qualifications for getting a job and one is pregnant….guess whose getting the job?
The school should offer to give her back her job (with the same contract) and she should accept the offer. If this job offer is not accepted, they should just go their separate ways. Case closed.
Just like id mentioned the Cleveland Clinic…get caught smoking and youre canned. Test positive for nicotine in a blood test…not getting hired. If you weigh too much by their standards you must join a weight watchers program.
The school could explain to their students that in welcoming back this teacher, this prodigal daughter, they are exercising the mercy of the Father, that they are refusing to act like the jealous older brother and that they will not begin a wayward journey of their own making. This school should not forget the mercy Jesus extended to them. By accepting this mother the school would be forming the moral character of the students by exemplifying charity in truth. The truth is that we are all in need of mercy.
A big theme in the Bible, OT and NT, is that people in positions of authority were not acting accordingly.
Whatever the correct thing to do is, I don’t really know. But firing her for a contractual detail in a position of authority is the same as Jesus getting upset with the Pharisee and calling them a brood of vipers. THey were given positions of authority and were not using them well.
One of the prohets – I cannot remember which – has God saying he wishes he sould just round up all of Israel like a dove rounds up her fledglings under her wing – but they have scattered, against God’s wishes and instructions.
The woman strayed from God’s plan and from her contract. This really hurts the feelings of her heavenly father, who will continue to love her and continue to shower grace on her.
As a kid, I upset my parents plenty of times. It hurt them to see me doing the wrong things. I was maybe 6 or 7 and stole from a sibling. True, my sib had to watch their money more closely. We all still love each other.
If a politician does something bad, he or she can still be a citizen and constituent, but they might have to step down from their position.
There is no comparison between her sin and the sins of pro-abort politicians. She had pre-marital sex, yes it is grave, but it is not as grave as establishing laws that allow the slaughter of children. No comparison.
Her position of teacher is one of authority as is the position of the school administrators. On the surface it appears that the school administrators have exercised their authority as poorly as this young woman. Without knowing all the details, I hope they tried to celebrate her pregnancy, the new life. If she was aware of her sin, and asked forgiveness, the school should have granted it. If she is obstinately thwarting the rules then their actions were appropriate, as long as charity was shown to her along the lines Dr. Nadal suggested.
All institutions are federally mandated to provide abortifacents for their teachers.
Why shouldn’t they also provide them with jobs?
Every one is a sinner. The baby was a resulting grace from a forgiving God, not a product of sin or evidence which would be better off destroyed or covered up. School’s should be the first to recognize when there is a life lesson to be learned and jump to teach kids how to do the right thing. That’s the difference between those who teach wisdom and those who teach basic knowledge.
Should our children steal, we would want them to confess, and be forgiven. Should our children get pregnant out of wedlock, we would want them to be forgiven as well. We would not want them to be fired from their jobs for choosing life, after choosing death. It sends a real message of hypocrisy to our children, and earns their rightful disrespect. If you want to be a hero get Planned Parenthood out of high school sex-ed classes. Don’t ostrasize pregnant women.
“If you want to be a hero get Planned Parenthood out of high school sex-ed classes.” – what, you think that would have prevented this situation from happening?
I’m weighing in late on this, so don’t even know who will read my post. But I am a woman who was kicked out of a Christian college at the age of 20 for being pregnant. I then went on to have an abortion. There is a reason why 70% of women who have abortions say they go to church. Facing the criticism from Christians is very difficult. Pregnancy is a “sin” that cannot be hidden (unlike pornography, lying, greed and the like).
I then, 7 years later, found myself pregnant while the director of a pro-life pregnancy center. Where most boards would have fired someone in my position, those grace-filled people surrounded me with love and grace, allowing me to STAY ON THE JOB while pregnant. Yes – I was very repentant. I offered to resign. You see, I was separated from an ex-husband, and the father of the baby was not my husband. I went to work, day after day, with my ever-growing sin before me.
I was not supported openly by my church, and once my divorce was final, the only pastor we could find to marry us was an Episcopal priest who was on the board of Planned Parenthood (oh the irony). He extended grace to us more than others. I “waddled” down the aisle and married my current husband 6 days before my son was born. (that was almost 22 years ago).
I fully understand what it takes to walk through the fear of that unintended pregnancy. And now, as the director of another pregnancy center for more than 11 years, I understand the desperation women face when contemplating abortion. I stood up in the face of my pregnancy the 2nd time. The first time I didn’t have the courage, and lost out on my first child – living with regret for 29 years now.
He who is without sin should cast that first stone…
Hi Robin, I read your comment. Thank you. I think it is absurd for religious institutions to shun women who are pregnant out of wedlock. I am so sorry that you were treated so badly.
There is this sense that pregnancy is a sin, but all it is, if anything, is an indication that you HAVE sinned. Past tense. I’m pretty sure that Christians believe that…everybody sins. I always find it telling when people confronted with exactly what they claim to believe – ie, that everybody sins but that everybody can be redeemed – pearl-clutch and wonder what to do, what to do.