“The Obama debate every American should see”
By Terrence Jeffrey in today’s Townhall.com, an excellent, clarifying commentary:
The most telling debate Barack Obama ever had was not with John McCain but Patrick O’Malley, who served with Obama in the IL Senate and engaged Obama in a colloquy every American should read.
The Obama-O’Malley debate was a defining moment for Obama because it dealt with such a fundamental issue: The state’s duty to protect the civil rights of the young and disabled….
Then-IL state Sen. Patrick O’Malley, whom I interviewed this week, contacted the state attorney general’s office to see whether existing laws protected a newborn abortion-survivor’s rights as a U.S. citizen. He was told they did not….
So, O’Malley — a lawyer, veteran lawmaker and colleague of Obama on the IL Senate Judiciary Committee — drafted legislation.
In 2001, he introduced three bills. SB1093 said if a doctor performing an abortion believed there was a likelihood the baby would survive, another physician must be present “to assess the child’s viability and provide medical care.” SB1094 gave the parents, or a state-appointed guardian, the right to sue to protect the child’s rights. SB1095 simply said a baby alive after “complete expulsion or extraction from its mother” would be considered a “‘person, ‘human being,’ ‘child’ and ‘individual.'”
The bills dealt exclusively with born children. “This legislation was about preventing conduct that allowed infanticide to take place in the state of IL,” O’Malley told me.
The Judiciary Committee approved the bills with Obama in opposition. On March 31, 2001, they came up on the IL senate floor. Only one member spoke against them: Obama.
“Nobody else said anything,” O’Malley recalls. The official transcript validates this.
“Sen. O’Malley,” Obama said near the beginning of the discussion, “the testimony during the committee indicated that one of the key concerns was — is that there was a method of abortion, an induced abortion, where the — the fetus or child, as — as some might describe it, is still temporarily alive outside the womb.”
Obama made three crucial concessions here: the legislation was about 1) a human being, who was 2) “alive” and 3) “outside the womb.”
He also used an odd redundancy: “temporarily alive.” Is there another type of human?
“And one of the concerns that came out in the testimony was the fact that they were not being properly cared for during that brief period of time that they were still living,” Obama continued.
Here he made another crucial concession: The intention of the legislation was to make sure that 1) a human being, 2) alive and 3) outside the womb was 4) “properly cared for.”
“Is that correct?” Obama asked O’Malley.
O’Malley tightened the logical knot. “(T)his bill suggests that appropriate steps be taken to treat that baby as a — a citizen of the United States and afforded all the rights and protections it deserves under the Constitution of the United States,” said O’Malley.
But to these specific temporarily-alive-outside-the-womb-human beings… Obama was not willing to concede any constitutional rights at all.
To explain his position, Obama came up with yet another term to describe the human being who would be protected by O’Malley’s bills. The abortion survivor became a “pre-viable fetus.”
By definition, however, a born baby cannot be a “fetus.” Merriam-Webster Online defines “fetus” as an “unborn or unhatched vertebrate” or “a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth.” Obama had already conceded these human beings were “alive outside the womb.”
“No. 1,” said Obama, “whenever we define a pre-viable fetus as a person that is protected by the equal protection clause or other elements of the Constitution, what we’re really saying is, in fact, that they are persons that are entitled to the kinds of protections that would be provided to a — a child, a nine-month-old — child that was delivered to term.”
Yes. In other words, a baby born alive at 37 weeks is just as much a human “person” as a baby born alive at 22 weeks.
Obama, however, saw a problem with calling abortion survivors “persons.” “I mean, it — it would essentially bar abortions,” said Obama, “because the equal protection clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an antiabortion statute.”
For Obama, whether or not a temporarily-alive-outside-the-womb little girl is a “person” entitled to constitutional rights is not determined by her humanity, her age or even her place in space relative to her mother’s uterus. It is determined by a whether a doctor has been trying to kill her.



Obama, however, saw a problem with calling abortion survivors “persons.” “I mean, it — it would essentially bar abortions,” said Obama, “because the equal protection clause does not allow somebody to kill a child, and if this is a child, then this would be an antiabortion statute.”
This is barbaric. Why has this yet to be discussed in the Presidential debates?
Wow, simply wow! I said to someone the other day, I can not put someone who doesn’t understand that abortion is wrong in charge of anything, let alone the troops and our country. These comments from Obama make me fear him even more. God help us.
Janet, I also would really appreciate that being brought up in a debate. I can’t fathom why it has not.
I can fathom why it is not….it is such a small issue in our world today that we don’t have the time to talk about it….
It might not be in line with your priorities but you may want to start worrying a little more about economics, war, social security, health care, roads, bridges and medicare before you start worrying about the unborn………Let’s go ahead and deal with the issues of the living.
Our country is about to go over a precipice from which it will not recover.
PeachPit, the aborted survivors ARE living US Citizens, left to die.
My Bethany’s back!! Missed you, girl!! :)
LOL Bethany…..LOL…LMAO….Let’s concentrate on the living..let’s vote more John McCain so more american’s can die….one issue voters are the smartest folks I know.
Peachpit made my point before I ever got a chance to post.
I was going to say people worry more about their checkbooks (note it was FIRST) then they do anything else.
Unseen children in the womb or unseen children being left to die in abortion mills are just that..unseen.
How a society treats the least and the most vulnerable use to matter. Now the vulneralbe are what the left says they are.
There was a time when the child in the womb was first in that line.
So, now we march off to the drumb beat of the left that has finally sounded so long and so loud our society has forgot true common decency.
Peacpit said it well, to hell with the child in the womb, what does it matter if they are being torn limb from limb, poisioned, being delivered feet first and having their brains sucked out….IT’S THE ECONOMY, STUPID!
How horribly said for the Peachpits of the world.
They’ve allowed their souls to be aborted.
PeachPit,
No time to talk about abortion? How cold. Potholes, flu shots and big screen TV’s are much more important than UNBORN babies.
PFPP.
Praying For Peach Pit.
This prayer to St. Therese seems especially appropriate today. Please pray each day until the election.
St. Therese, our holy sister and ever faithful friend,
remember your promise to do good upon earth…
enfold in the mantle of your protection all our children,
the unborn babies in danger of abortion,
those suffering unspeakable abuses, our troubled youth,
the unloved and unwanted,
and those struggling with teenage pregnancy.
Ask your own loving parents, Zelie and Louis Martin,
to pray for restoration of respect for family life
and for God’s blessing and help
for all parents everywhere.
Implore Our Heavenly Father
to quiet the fears of our children,
return peace, innocence and security to their hearts,
and give them the comforting awareness of His love.
Make our cries of outrage heard
by officials of every land,
as we pray for an end to the violence and evils
that besiege our society.
We earnestly pray that the true understanding
and value of life be made known and respected by all.
We thank you, dear St. Therese, for all the graces
you will obtain for us and for our precious children
during this Centenary Year of your holy death
and throughout the years to come.
We ask all this from Our Heavenly Father,
in the name of Jesus His Beloved Son,
and through Their Holy Spirit.
Amen.
With Ecclesiastical Approval
http://www.carmelnuns.com/Therese_Children.html
Who is running John McCain’s campaign? They have an ace in their hand and they’re not playing it.
Our country is about to go over a precipice from which it will not recover.
Posted by: HisMan at October 8, 2008 9:01 AM
Don’t worry, HisMan, just release your secret video.
Interesting debate. Rather than portray Obama as a baby killing monster, it appears from his comments that he was thinking seriously about these ideas and trying to find solutions.
I copied and printed that out to say during my hour for 40 days of Life later today, Janet.
Saint Theresé of the Child Jesus is my parish’s patron.
Yes, Hal, he was trying to find the solution to calling a born baby a “child” because we couldn’t do that, it might screw with people’s minds and think that the unborn are actually ALIVE. Ugh. We wouldn’t want that now would we?
Hey Obama, they’re people, just like black people are people too.
hal,
Thinking seriously? I’d hate to see him on a bad day. This story makes me sick….
hal,
We don’t need more of Obama’s “thinking” at this point. We need prayers and lots of them.
PeachPit,
Would you vote for someone who supported rape, who said that he will make it his number one priority in office to make rape “safe, legal, and rare”?
There are lots of kids in our country who’s dad and mom’s limbs were ripped off of them by an unnecessary war…
How many unborn babies volunteer to be aborted peach pit?
All those people’s mom’s and dad’s who died VOLUNTEERED. They knew what they were getting into. It’s A LOT different.
PeachPit,
…and who will take care of those “wounded” who have no children because they were aborted? You cannot win with your argument.
My Bethany’s back!! Missed you, girl!! :)
Carder, I’ve missed you too!! It’s good to be back.
PeachPit @ 8:58 AM
OOps, carla wrote that! I don’t know why I saw Carder, but I miss her too! :)
LOL Bethany…..LOL…LMAO….Let’s concentrate on the living..let’s vote more John McCain so more american’s can die….one issue voters are the smartest folks I know.
That’s so cute, Peach Pit…completely ignoring my point and responding to something that wasn’t said.
I would love to see Terence Jeffrey have a discussion with Sarah Palin and her team about this issue, and then have Gianna Jesson join Sarah up on stage during the final week of the campaign to nail Obama with this full force.
It would be like that scene in “A Few Good Men” – with Tom Cruise’s character provoking Nicholson’s character to blow it while on the stand and under oath.
I’d love to see that because McCain could later thank Rob Reiner and Aaron Sorkin (the writer – who also did Westwing etc.) for the inspiration.
Obama can’t handle the truth.
Interesting point in the debate. McCain was asked who he would pick for Secretary of the Treasury, and he said “Warren Buffett” Mr. Buffett, who most Americans trust a great deal more than Paulson,is a strong supporter of Obama.
In other words, the person who McCain trusts to have the judgment to handle the most important issue, the economy supports Obama and believes Obama would make the best president. Interesting.
Posted by: PPC at October 8, 2008 10:24 AM
Hmm… I heard Meg Whitman.
PPC, I thought what he said was strange too. I heard McCain say “Warren Buffet … is a friend of Mr. Obama…” or something to that effect, almost like he was thinking aloud, but not really giving Buffet as an answer. Then he went on to mention Meg Whitman (as Kristen said)….
Yes McCain mentioned Meg Whitman too, which was very ironic since E Bay just announced it was laying off 1,600 workers, due to poor business conditions.
hey folks,
I think you missed the point … so did Obama … and so did The IL Attorney General,
these are HUMAN rights that are innate …ie. not a government handout ….
these are NOT birth-rights/personhood rights/sentient-rights /rights that exist because of pain.
A living-HUMAN has a basic set of values (HUMAN rights) that is independent of how anyone ‘feels’ (wanted/unwanted) about it. There is no legitimate way of eliminating HUMAN rights … Obama, Doug and Hal all recognize these pre-born as both living and HUMAN. There is no need to have these rights re-affirmed at birth.
“Susan Thompson: Susan was born on June 15, 1932 in Omaha, Nebraska. Warren and Susan were introduced to one another by Warren’s sister Roberta Buffett who was Susan’s roommate at Northwestern University.
Susan and Warren Buffett were married in April 1952.
Since “1977 Susan and Warren Buffett” lived apart. She moved to San Francisco to work on her singing career. Susan and Warren remained friends and even vacationed together at times.
Susan is said to have approved of Warren’s relationship with Astrid. Gifts to Warren’s friends and acquaintances often included notes signed by Warren, Susan, and Astrid.
She died at the age of 72 on July 29, 2004 after suffering a stroke. She was in Cody, Wyoming at the time of her death. Warren was with Susan when she died.
…………Buffett lived a liberal lifestyle. Warren’s wife passed away and He recently married his mistress of 20 years.
Now if he is a social liberal, he would blend witbh Obama.
why would anyone care about those details of Mr. Buffett’s private life?
He seems like a good guy, but I’m not sure he should be Secretary of the Treasury.
Let’s just admit it.. Mcain/Palin is a horrible combo and the Republicans screwed up royally… Obama is gonna win and after the second debate I have to give it to him…He has clear cut plans and Mcain just kept saying..” I’m a Maverick” ” We are American’s”… Where is his plan? and the plan he gave was weak. It is a sad day for the Republicans…Not to mention what was he thinking with healthcare…I am a MD and that would be a travisty… Wow…
Is Planned Parenthood the replacement for the klue Klux Klan? It (planned parenthood) has exterminated innocent babies of colour beyound the wildest dreams of the Klan. The white cone headed suits of the Klan are replaced by Lab coats. There is no doubt that racist America had members worry about being outvoted by minorities.
Do you all know there would be millions more voters of age today if they had not been eliminated. they would of course be in homes that are more liberal and would be a dominating voting block. They would have been the tipping point for Algore aND KERRY.
I remind them that they aborted the votes that would have won Florida.
“Do you all know there would be millions more voters of age today if they had not been eliminated.”
No, I don’t “know” that. Abortion generally tends to delay the age a woman has children, not reduce the number of children she has. So, I would agree that because of legal abortion there are fewer people in the US, but I doubt it’s “millions.”
Darlene,
Since your an MD, what is your position on the BAIPA??? Do you agree with Obama?
Do you agree that socialized medicine is the way to go?
Sandy, sadly Obama is not advocating socialized medicine. Unless you think that is what Members of Congress currently have.
….Do you all know there would be millions more voters of age today if they had not been eliminated. they would of course be in homes that are more liberal and would be a dominating voting block. They would have been the tipping point for Algore aND KERRY.
I remind them that they aborted the votes that would have won Florida.
Posted by: xppc at October 8, 2008 1:01 PM
Pro-aborts don’t believe this logic. They’ll tell you that being PC is not a genetic trait. They are counting on some pro-choicers converting to the pro-life side and pro-lifers becoming pro-choice to keep their numbers up through generations. Go figure.
“They’ll tell you that being PC is not a genetic trait.”
Well….it’s not….
bethany,
My Bethany’s back!! Missed you, girl!! :)
~
Carder, I’ve missed you too!! It’s good to be back.
That was Carla, not Carder. I only bring it up, because Carder has disappeared off the face of the earth!
mk,
I think carder was around within the last week…. or maybe two?
“They’ll tell you that being PC is not a genetic trait.”
Well….it’s not….
Posted by: prettyinpink at October 8, 2008 2:20 PM
My point. That’s obvious to anyone with an ounce of brain, but they’ll still say it every time the topic comes up!
Yes McCain mentioned Meg Whitman too, which was very ironic since E Bay just announced it was laying off 1,600 workers, due to poor business conditions.
Posted by: PPC at October 8, 2008 11:09 AM
Well, Meg Whitman stepped down as of March 2008 so it doesn’t appear it was her bad management.
LOL Bethany…..LOL…LMAO….Let’s concentrate on the living..let’s vote more John McCain so more american’s can die….one issue voters are the smartest folks I know.
Better yet, let’s vote for Obama. That way he can take all of the troups OUT of Iraq and put them IN Afghanistan…and double them, cuz what the heck!
“Do you all know there would be millions more voters of age today if they had not been eliminated.”
No, I don’t “know” that. Abortion generally tends to delay the age a woman has children, not reduce the number of children she has. So, I would agree that because of legal abortion there are fewer people in the US, but I doubt it’s “millions.”
———————————————–
Um, can you do math? Because for every abortion a woman has, there is one fewer living child that she has….
A woman who goes on to have four living children… would have had five ….
A woman who goes on to have two living children… would have had three…
Or more, if they had more than one abortion.
It doesn’t “delay the age at which they have children”… it just delays the age at which they allow those children to live.
The only way your statement works is if those children were not, in fact, children… bringing us back to the comment I have seen on here many times… what were they, precisely? Because ultrasound puts to rest the lie of “blob of cells”….
Elisabeth,
You’re forgetting that women are able to control exactly how many babies they will have because now we have birth control that is the perfect antidote to getting pregnant in later years, and there’s always abortion, of course if the birth control fails.
Elisabeth,
My last comment should be directed to Hal.
hal @ 1:16 PM
45 Million. Do the math.
http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/index.html#US%27
According to the shirt I have from this year’s Pro Life Memorial Day, its nearing 50,000,000 Million. That’s over 1 MILLION a year since 1973.
So much for RARE.
Obama must believe that by promoting abortion you can reduce abortion. Huh.
I learned in class on Monday that 3,000,000 individuals die every year from malaria- a disease that has been eradicated in the US thanks to DDT.
Just thought I’d share.
I learned in class on Monday that 3,000,000 individuals die every year from malaria- a disease that has been eradicated in the US thanks to DDT.
Just thought I’d share.
Posted by: Rae at October 8, 2008 7:06 PM
——————————————-
Interesting tidbit, but I’m not sure what point you are making… could you please elaborate?
And instead of food and medications for diseases like malaria, third world countries are sent birth control. They need food, then they need medicines for disease, not contraception.
I’ll type slow. Say you have an abortion at 18 and two children in your late twenties. If you hadn’t had that abortion, you would not necessarily raise three children. You would have have the one at 18, and maybe another one, and then use birth control or sterilization to have no more. Thus, either way, two voters are brought into the world. It doesn’t happen this way for everyone, but it’s false to assert that we’d have 50 million more people if not for abortion. Many of the people here now would never have been conceived in the first place if the aborted “babies” were not aborted. I understand you would find this preferable, but my point was very specific @1:16.
“Legalized abortion gave these mothers an option and thus reduced the number of at-risk children who might otherwise have grown up to become criminals (note that abortion doesn’t mean fewer children per-se, it may simply delay childbearing to when the mother is not poor, a teenager or unmarried which works just as well.)”
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2004/03/teenage_pregnan.html
When we quit sending guns to countries, maybe we won’t have to send abortion pills, because raising a kid in Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan or whereever might actually be viable and a hopeful idea. Right now though we leave mothers with little logical choice but to abort. War is hell.
I’ll type slow. Say you have an abortion at 18 and two children in your late twenties. If you hadn’t had that abortion, you would not necessarily raise three children. You would have have the one at 18, and maybe another one, and then use birth control or sterilization to have no more. Thus, either way, two voters are brought into the world. It doesn’t happen this way for everyone, but it’s false to assert that we’d have 50 million more people if not for abortion. Many of the people here now would never have been conceived in the first place if the aborted “babies” were not aborted. I understand you would find this preferable, but my point was very specific @1:16.
“Legalized abortion gave these mothers an option and thus reduced the number of at-risk children who might otherwise have grown up to become criminals (note that abortion doesn’t mean fewer children per-se, it may simply delay childbearing to when the mother is not poor, a teenager or unmarried which works just as well.)”
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2004/03/teenage_pregnan.html
Posted by: hal at October 8, 2008 7:47 PM
———————————————
I think it is probably false to assume that either position is totally accurate. And you don’t need to type slowly on my behalf…. if you require it, please feel free.
It is equally likely for either outcome… although I would add that if that original baby had been born and then put up for adoption, it is far more likely that the mother would go on to have her “planned” two or three or whatever children later (although I don’t know that all pregnancies, even those that are wanted are necessarily “planned”… or that women necessarily have a set number of children in mind that does not vary despite changes that occur as she goes through life), which would then result in numbers closer to those that the pro-life movement sets forth.
I was pointing out merely that your stated position is just as false as the other extreme.
You also seem to have missed the point that the very quote you cite states “MAY”, not “WILL”.
@LizFromNebraska: Medicines are not going to get rid of malaria, food isn’t going to help either.
What needs to be done is we need to get rid of our restrictions on DDT because soft bird eggs is not as important as not having 3,000,000 people per year dying.
@Elisabeth: I just thought it was interesting, because it’s such a high number and people are always saying how high the number of abortions per year are. Yes, the number of abortions are disgustingly high- but I would consider the number of malaria deaths just as disgustingly high- if not more. Every 2 years, the same number of people die of malaria as the number of people who died in the Holocaust. That’s pretty fricking sad if you ask me.
@Elisabeth: I just thought it was interesting, because it’s such a high number and people are always saying how high the number of abortions per year are. Yes, the number of abortions are disgustingly high- but I would consider the number of malaria deaths just as disgustingly high- if not more. Every 2 years, the same number of people die of malaria as the number of people who died in the Holocaust. That’s pretty fricking sad if you ask me.
Posted by: Rae at October 8, 2008 8:31 PM
—————————————–
Okay, gotcha. I agree that we need to be just as caring and vigilant about other medical issues that impact the world around us. That is what I spend my nights doing… doing whatever I personally can do to care for those people for whom the situation demands that they cross my path in the pediatric emergency department, the pediatric burn trauma unit, or the pediatric floor. Believe you me, I could come up with hundreds of different issues that concern me and that I fight, in my own small way, to rectify on a daily basis. Don’t even get me started on children in cars with either no car seat or in an improper restraint… or riding bikes without helmets!
I figured it was something along those lines, but I have found in these types of venues it pays to ask rather than assume….
About the contention that an election shouldn’t be about one issue. The election of 1860 in essence was about one issue-SLAVERY. In 1934
Germany the one issue was the RACISM of Hitler
and the Nazi party. There were ancillary concerns
for sure during those times but these were the pre-eminent issues.
? You Jill for what you are doing.
Actually, Rae, Liz makes a good point. Instead of giving third world countries what they really need to eradicate disease, etc., birth control and “family planning” services (abortion and sterilization procedures) are forced upon them.
Actually Eileen #2, I understand that- but do you know why they do that? Why they push BC instead of real medicine?
It’s all about price. It’s cheaper to push condoms and BC pills than it is to produce new anti-malarials that work better than Quinine (even though now there is resistance to Quinine…).
The biggest problem is the fact that DDT is illegal and it is against our own laws to provide DDT to other countries.
Thanks Eileen!
From http://www.cdc.gov/Malaria/
Malaria is a mosquito-borne disease caused by a parasite. People with malaria often experience fever, chills, and flu-like illness. Left untreated, they may develop severe complications and die. Each year 350-500 million cases of malaria occur worldwide, and over one million people die, most of them young children in sub-Saharan Africa.
This sometimes fatal disease can be prevented and cured. Bednets, insecticides, and antimalarial drugs are effective tools to fight malaria in areas where it is transmitted. Travelers to a malaria-risk area should avoid mosquito bites and take a preventive antimalarial drug.
Good job Liz! You can use Google and copy-paste.
Hal:Say you have an abortion at 18 and two children in your late twenties. If you hadn’t had that abortion, you would not necessarily raise three children. You would have have the one at 18, and maybe another one, and then use birth control or sterilization to have no more. Thus, either way, two voters are brought into the world. It doesn’t happen this way for everyone, but it’s false to assert that we’d have 50 million more people if not for abortion. Many of the people here now would never have been conceived in the first place if the aborted “babies” were not aborted. I understand you would find this preferable, but my point was very specific @1:16.
“Legalized abortion gave these mothers an option and thus reduced the number of at-risk children who might otherwise have grown up to become criminals (note that abortion doesn’t mean fewer children per-se, it may simply…
From a pro-life standpoint, a woman who had one
abortion and subsequently two children in effect
had three children. It’s just that one of them was not allowed to be born. I also should point out that some types of birth control are abortifacients. In addition this is not just a numbers game where one can speculate about this
or that demographic outcome. WE are talking about the termination of a human life. As far
as the deaths from malaria you are talking about
3,000,000 world wide. The number of abortions
globally speaking is much greater than this.
There are solutions for the malaria-death problem,but looking at the much greater resources committed to fighting AIDS one can see that funding to combat any particular disease
is sometimes predicated on certain popular cause
or political consideration.
Also, there is no incentive for bigpharm to make these drugs unless government steps in. They wouldn’t be making much profit, would they?
In an election year, people will bring up issues such as war and the economy. These are important but God did not create these. These things are man-made. God did create life and gave us a share in creating it. Abortion is a direct affront to, and contravention of, the Creative Will and Love of God.
Thankfully, ours is also a God of Mercy but if we elect the most pro-abortion candidate ever to the presidency it just scares me about what could be on down the road.
Were you trying to insult me, Rae, or were you being sarcastic? I’ve been using computers since my family had a Commodore, then our Gateway computer in 1993, and using the internet since 1996. *rolls eyes*
I was just looking up information to see if there was any medicines that we had that could be sent to those who are in more Malaria prone countries.
Oh, Elisabeth, I can’t wait til I get to work in the hospital and help people as you are! I’m also the same way about car seats, restraints, and bike helmets. I see kids ALL THE TIME without helmets and I can’t staaaaand it.
P.S. I don’t want to pry or force you to reveal any personal information about yourself, but I was just curious as to where you went to nursing school. You can get my email from one of the mods and email me privately if you wish to let me know that way!
Elizabeth… check your blog.
@Liz: I was being a brat. Sorry.
The best way to help would be to get over the whole “vaccine against malaria” pipedream and start working on DDT derivatives or using DDT period to kill the Anopheles gambiae mosquito populations.
Anyway, this is a fruitless conversation. I wasn’t really planning to go anywhere with my initial statement that malaria kills 3,000,000 people per year worldwide (majority of the deaths are children under the age of 5).
So…
janet asked:
“This is barbaric. Why has this yet to be discussed in the Presidential debates?”
Because the McCain campaign is hellbent on losing the election, that’s why!!
Its hard to think of it any other way after having watched the campaign operate over the last 6 months or so!
Rae, the DDT thing has been an issue for me for a while. It angers me so much that those people are dying needlessly! The fact that environmentalists were so much more concerned about birds than they were with the lives of human beings…it’s just disgusting to me.
It’s the same thing with abortion. Either way, human lives are disregarded and destroyed for some agenda.
John M: Obama, Doug and Hal all recognize these pre-born as both living and HUMAN. There is no need to have these rights re-affirmed at birth.
John, you’re talking about two different things. One is physical state – and indeed, agreed that living and human apply.
Rights are attributed status, however, and that’s another deal.
Still, Doug, John M. logically concludes that human rights logically apply to living human beings.
It seems reasonable to attribute human rights to human beings.
Ezek @ 1:17,
janet asked:
“This is barbaric. Why has this yet to be discussed in the Presidential debates?”
Because the McCain campaign is hellbent on losing the election, that’s why!!
Its hard to think of it any other way after having watched the campaign operate over the last 6 months or so!
There are days I say the same thing. When’s he going to close the deal? Time is running out.
FoxNews just showed a clip of a rally in Wisconsin where an angry man stood up and told McCain how tired Americans are of what’s going on in Washington. He got a standing ovation! Finally! That’s the kind of energy McCain’s campaign needs. Keep it going!!!
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
The ACORN voter registration scandal is growing. It’s reported that ACORN used convicted criminals to gathers voter registrations.
Still, Doug, John M. logically concludes that human rights logically apply to living human beings.
Jon, not “still.” That’s a given, but it does not mean that it works backwards, i.e. while of course the adjective means a certain thing, it does not mean, not at all, that all the object of the adjective, the “beings” necessarily get attributed rights.
Does other than a human being have “human intelligence”? No
Does that mean that any and all human beings have “human intelligence”? No.
In this case, “human” is necessary, but not sufficient. Good concept to know.
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Can we grant “human rights” to a dog? No.
Does that mean that any and all human beings have rights? No.
Necessary , but not sufficient.
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It seems reasonable to attribute human rights to human beings.
It’s not a question of “reasonable” or not. It’s a matter of definition. By definition, it can be no other way.
Are all footballs balls? Yes.
Are all balls footballs? No.
Janet: The ACORN voter registration scandal is growing.

You’re not making a whole lot of sense, Doug. You and Hal recognize the pre-born as human beings. Human beings get human rights. Do you really want to dispute this statement?
Hi Doug,
this is why the little word ‘innate’ means so much. It puts to rest all frivolous possibilities. It means that if a being is recognized as being a unique alive human being these ‘rights’ are but one aspect of being a living human. There is no need or that being to reach person status. Then it becomes a question: Can any person eliminate human rights?
You’re not making a whole lot of sense, Doug. You and Hal recognize the pre-born as human beings. Human beings get human rights. Do you really want to dispute this statement?
Jon, I am making sense.
Yes, human beings and no other beings, get human rights. That does not mean that all human beings get rights, though.
That would be true if only one human being got rights, Jon, by the way – you could still say the same thing.
this is why the little word ‘innate’ means so much. It puts to rest all frivolous possibilities.
John, if there is a “frivolous,” here, it’s setting out as a premise that which is not accepted. Rights are not “innate.” Rights are a mental construct, they are ideas which reside in sentient minds. They are concepts which, in the eye of the beholder, are held to be applied to various individuals or groups.
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It means that if a being is recognized as being a unique alive human being these ‘rights’ are but one aspect of being a living human. There is no need or that being to reach person status. Then it becomes a question: Can any person eliminate human rights?
Well, status is what we are debating here. “Rights” don’t have external physical reality; they don’t exist outside the mind; if there was “nobody” to consider them and/or desire them, there would be no such thing.
Even aside from that, what you and some others want is for certain status to be accorded to the unborn. You want personhood to be deemed to be present for the unborn.
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Can any person eliminate human rights? That’s arguable, but I think in the main, yes. Not that a person (short of a monarch, for example) can wave a magic wand and change society’s position, but if Joe Blow kills Roger Dodger, then Joe has pretty well put an end to Roger’s rights.
Not that society then says that Joe was in the right, but now that Roger is dead, does the body, does the “he” that remains, really “have rights”? There are rules and laws concerning the treatment of corpses, but that’s why I say “pretty well put an end to the rights” – the being that was Roger had rights but now that he’s dead things have changed (a lot), the right/wrong/good/bad of it notwithstanding.
So, to summarize, yeah – somebody can eliminate human rights, pretty much. Maybe a better way would be to say “negate rights.”
Hi Doug,
… and this is done by ‘killing’. Seems very similar to abortion
We’ve already covered sentience and rights for a person sleeping and comatose. Would really like you to comment on Dr Jill’s interviews with Oprah. Click on the picture. Download the flash player to Firefox. Close all Firefox sites. Re-open Dr Jill’s site; click the picture again and watch one of four interviews. http://www.drjilltaylor.com/
Doug said, “Yes, human beings and no other beings, get human rights. That does not mean that all human beings get rights, though.”
But that’s not what I said, Doug. You’re being obtuse and dishonest now. Here is what John McDonell implied or said many comments ago, and what I have said:
Human beings get human rights.
All human beings get human rights. Why? because human rights are for human beings. That’s why they’re called human rights. By virtue of being a human being, I get the corresponding rights. If you want to argue what those rights are–if any–then that’s a different matter. But so far you’ve refused to deal honestly with the terminology. What you really claim to believe in are “person rights.” In your terminology, a very young fetus is not a person. You’re still wrong, but at least you then show greater consistency.
JohnMcD,
Thanks for the heads-up on Dr. Jill’s interviews with Oprah!
God bless you!
Human beings get human rights.
All human beings get human rights.
No, Jon, the most that can be said, from that is that no other species get human rights.
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Why? because human rights are for human beings. That’s why they’re called human rights. By virtue of being a human being, I get the corresponding rights.
Not necessarily. As we have it now, you were attributed rights at birth, so yes, you have them, but again – “human rights are for human beings” just means that non-humans don’t get them, not that any and every “human being” does.
Heck – you’re dissatisfied with the situation because not all human beings (using a broad definition) are granted the rights.
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If you want to argue what those rights are–if any–then that’s a different matter. But so far you’ve refused to deal honestly with the terminology. What you really claim to believe in are “person rights.” In your terminology, a very young fetus is not a person. You’re still wrong, but at least you then show greater consistency.
Not at all. Personhood and the status of having been attributed rights are the same thing, here. If there is dishonesty, it’s on your part – not acknowledging that it is the lack of the unborn being granted rights that has you wishing things were different.
John M: and this is done by ‘killing’. Seems very similar to abortion
One is a case of rights being negated. The other is a case of rights not having been attributed in the first place.
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We’ve already covered sentience and rights for a person sleeping and comatose. Would really like you to comment on Dr Jill’s interviews with Oprah. Click on the picture. Download the flash player to Firefox. Close all Firefox sites. Re-open Dr Jill’s site; click the picture again and watch one of four interviews. http://www.drjilltaylor.com/
Okay, John.
: : : :
I downloaded the first one, and watched it. Very similar to the presentation of hers you linked to some time ago. Fascinating stuff. If there is inner peace to be gained by accessing our right brains – sounds good to me.
My uncle suffered a stroke in July, a bad one, and it’s his right brain that is affected. No sight in his left eye, his left side paralysed. He’s recovered quite a bit, but the prognosis is not for full recovery. He’s still his old self – sense of humor and all – so it’s not like he’s now purely “left brain,” but I wonder if his experience is in any way the “opposite” of Dr. Jill’s.
Doug, stop talking about human rights as they have been practically applied; I’m obviously discussing the theory. Theory is rarely perfectly applied.
According to Fowler’s 1964 Concise Oxford Dictionary (my personal dictionary), one definition of a right–the definition relevant to us–is “justification, fair claim, being entitled to privilege or immunity, thing one is entitled to.” Obviously if a right is a human right, then it is something that a human being is entitled to. His humanity entitles him to it. He has a claim to the thing because he is a human being. Obviously, every human being has a claim to the thing. If an entity is disqualified from a human right, the entity is disqualified because it is not human.
Of course, you don’t want to admit that–by definition–all human beings have human rights. Your earlier admission that a human fetus is a human being implies that a human fetus has human rights. But you know the easy way out of the dilemma: deny human rights and espouse person rights. You can define the person philosophically without the constraints imposed by natural science.
A human being has human rights.
Jon: According to Fowler’s 1964 Concise Oxford Dictionary (my personal dictionary), one definition of a right–the definition relevant to us–is “justification, fair claim, being entitled to privilege or immunity, thing one is entitled to.”
And that is of course in the eye of the beholder.
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Obviously if a right is a human right, then it is something that a human being is entitled to.
Yes, but in no way does that say that “all human beings” get it, or even that any more than one human being, necessarily, gets it.
A right that one human being, versus zero members of other species gets, is still a “human right” as opposed to that of the other species.
Can a member of other species be Pope? No. Does every member of the human race get to be Pope? Of course not. Nevertheless, being “Pope” is only for humans, versus any and all other species. It’s a “human” deal, just like “human rights,” but in no way does that necessarily apply to “all.”
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His humanity entitles him to it. He has a claim to the thing because he is a human being. Obviously, every human being has a claim to the thing. If an entity is disqualified from a human right, the entity is disqualified because it is not human.
No, you are mistaking a smaller set for a larger. We do not apply human rights to other species, but that does not mean that we apply them to all “human beings” as you use the term.
And it is that fact that has you dissatisfied with things, here, in the first place. It’s not the species that is in question, it’s our policies that you want changed.
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Of course, you don’t want to admit that–by definition–all human beings have human rights. Your earlier admission that a human fetus is a human being implies that a human fetus has human rights. But you know the easy way out of the dilemma: deny human rights and espouse person rights. You can define the person philosophically without the constraints imposed by natural science.
You are confusing physical state with attributed status.
You have not proven that all human beings have “human rights” or even “rights” at all, and moreover – it is the fact that rights are not attributed to the unborn that has you bumming out, anyway.
Yes, if we go with, “human organism” or “living human organism” then the unborn qualify as “human beings” but that has not even gotten to rights yet. The manner in which we treat the unborn is a separate matter.
Natural science has nothing to do with rights.
I said, ‘According to Fowler’s 1964 Concise Oxford Dictionary (my personal dictionary), one definition of a right–the definition relevant to us–is “justification, fair claim, being entitled to privilege or immunity, thing one is entitled to.”‘
You said, “And that is of course in the eye of the beholder.”
Most definitely, Doug. You are arguing now what the human right is, not who has it. And I had suggested to you that you take this escape route.
Doug, I submitted human rights and definition as keywords in the Google search engine. Here is a passage from the first Web page that I chose to look at. The page was published by the online magazine Modern Communism and is entitled, “A Modern Definition of Human Rights.” I am not a communist, and neither are you, but let’s see what the communists mean by the term human rights. Who has them?
The starting point of CPC(M-L) on the question of human rights is that a modern definition of human rights must be based on what is required by all human beings to exist. In other words, when we talk about human rights, we are talking about those rights which flow from the simple fact that a human being exists and from no other considerations.
There are also other categories of rights which exist in a complex, modern society, such as the rights of women, children, workers and minorities. These categories of rights belong to individuals as a result of their membership in a collective within society. The issue of minority rights can be dealt with in a modern and comprehensive way only if every individual’s rights are guaranteed by virtue of their being human…
In the next issue of Modern Communism we will begin the discussion of the social and personal rights which flow from the definition of human rights as those rights which belong to individuals by virtue of their existence as human beings. In future issues we will follow this logic and look at some of the consequences of this definition.
Jon: I said, ‘According to Fowler’s 1964 Concise Oxford Dictionary (my personal dictionary), one definition of a right–the definition relevant to us–is “justification, fair claim, being entitled to privilege or immunity, thing one is entitled to.”‘
You said, “And that is of course in the eye of the beholder.”
Most definitely, Doug. You are arguing now what the human right is, not who has it. And I had suggested to you that you take this escape route.
Wrong. It is the fact that you think the unborn are justified in being attributed rights that has you arguing, in the first place.
In your eyes, the “entitlement” and “justification” is there, but that in no way means that another given person will agree, or another given group, or society as a whole.
I’m not “arguing what the right is,” I’m pointing out what reality is – that your opinion is not mirrored by society. When it comes to us as a society, we don’t “behold” the same things you do, here, and thus you are dissatisfied with the situation.
I’m saying that you are not “entitled” to have your desire trump the desire of the woman who is actually the one pregnant, and society agrees with me. It does not “have” to be that way, but as of now it is that way.
Rights are a matter of being “beheld,” of being granted, accorded, attributed, etc. A matter of society deeming them to be present, or not.
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I said, “Obviously if a right is a human right, then it is something that a human being is entitled to.”
You said, ‘Yes, but in no way does that say that “all human beings” get it, or even that any more than one human being, necessarily, gets it.’
Huh? You’re ignoring logic. The human being has the human right.
No. It is the fact that the unborn aren’t attributed rights that has you bummed out, from the get-go.
Human rights are not for other species, no, but in general we are talking about born people when we are talking about those who have human rights.
You want the situation to be different, but as of now it’s not different.
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You said, ‘Can a member of other species be Pope? No. Does every member of the human race get to be Pope? Of course not. Nevertheless, being “Pope” is only for humans, versus any and all other species. It’s a “human” deal, just like “human rights,” but in no way does that necessarily apply to “all.”‘
I don’t think anyone posits a human right to be pope. If there were such a human right, then of course every human being would be entitled to be a pope. There were once three concurrent popes, but they didn’t get along very well.
My point is that being Pope is just much a “human” thing as are “human rights.” Neither are going to necessarily apply to every “human being,” though.
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You said, ‘No, you are mistaking a smaller set for a larger.’
No, I’m not. Women’s rights are for women. aboriginal rights are for aborigines. Human rights are for human beings. You’re the one who’s illogical. I can’t believe you’re still trying to argue that human rights are for a subset of human beings. What good are they then?
Not all women have what we say are “women’s rights.” Not all “human beings” as you use the term have human rights. That’s a given – that’s what has you wanting a policy change in the first place.
I don’t need to “argue” about the subsets, etc. – it’s self evident. We don’t attribute rights to the unborn as we do to born people.
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Let’s say there is a human right to life.
I’m certainly willing to discuss such hypotheticals with you.
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In your world, human beings don’t have it (this human right does not depend on being human but on something more restrictive); in your world, an undefined subset of human beings has it, which is to say that nobody has it. Nobody has it even though the words imply that human beings have it.
You began with a hypothetical, but then jumped off the track. If you want your hypothetical, fine, but that’s not “my world.”
In our world, in reality, we attribute rights in a variety of ways. Born people, pretty much across the board, are attributed rights. Some come with age or experience, but birth is the big dividing line, and there too it doesn’t “have” to be that way in any necessary external or “absolute” way, but it is that way, and it’s been that way for thousands and thousands of years.
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I hear you on “theory,” but let’s look at the real world. Let’s look at reality.
If, hypothetically, you want to go with the notion that all human organisms have rights, then okay – and obviously that’d be different than our world. Even then there’d be the question of the rights of the unborn versus the rights of the woman.
In the next issue of Modern Communism we will begin the discussion of the social and personal rights which flow from the definition of human rights as those rights which belong to individuals by virtue of their existence as human beings. In future issues we will follow this logic and look at some of the consequences of this definition.
Jon, I think they were talking about born people. Didn’t see any mention of the unborn, of “babies,” etc. in that article.
The Manitoba branch of the Communist Party of Canada was pretty much just bitching about Canada there, and from what I saw it’s with respect to born people. The Communist party of Canada supports legal abortions.
I do not believe that they would imply that the unborn have rights, quote them all you want.
I do realize that some people think the unborn should have rights, though.
Doug said, “Jon, I think they were talking about born people. Didn’t see any mention of the unborn, of “babies,” etc. in that article.
No, they were talking about all people. They were talking about a “definition of human rights as those rights which belong to individuals by virtue of their existence as human beings.” As Doug said, he didn’t see any mention of the unborn, of “babies,” etc. in that article. And I was talking about what they were talking about. What did they say?
“In other words, when we talk about human rights, we are talking about those rights which flow from the simple fact that a human being exists and from no other considerations.”
Doug has admitted that a human fetus is a human being. The human fetus exists. Therefore, it has human rights.
Doug said, “Jon, I think they were talking about born people. Didn’t see any mention of the unborn, of “babies,” etc. in that article.”
No, they were talking about all people. They were talking about a “definition of human rights as those rights which belong to individuals by virtue of their existence as human beings.” As Doug said, he didn’t see any mention of the unborn, of “babies,” etc. in that article. And I was talking about what they were talking about. What did they say?
Jon, since they are for legal abortion, to maintain they were talking about the unborn simply does not make sense. You can always ask them….
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“In other words, when we talk about human rights, we are talking about those rights which flow from the simple fact that a human being exists and from no other considerations.”
They are using the term in the sense of “legal human being,” i.e. one with rights already attributed, and in this case that is at birth.
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Doug has admitted that a human fetus is a human being. The human fetus exists. Therefore, it has human rights.
Yes, “human being” applies, when we go with a broad definition – nothing more than “living human organism.” But that does not mean that rights have been attributed.
Moreover, it is the fact that we don’t accord rights to the unborn, as we do to born people, that is the reason for your argument in the first place, Jon.
If we did, you’d be happier and it wouldn’t be the same argument for you.
And you’d be happier, Doug, if you had won the argument.
As a human being, the human fetus has the same human rights that every other human being has.
Animals have animal rights.
Women have women’s rights.
Aborigines have aboriginal rights.
Americans have American rights.
“Gays” have “gay” rights.
Pianos have piano rights.
Human beings have human rights.
And you’d be happier, Doug, if you had won the argument.
Jon, you haven’t even gotten to the argument yet. The argument is over whether or not we change our policy.
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As a human being, the human fetus has the same human rights that every other human being has.
No it doesn’t, and it’s that fact that you wish wasn’t present.
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Animals have animal rights.
Well, some animals do – it varies greatly with region, species, etc.
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Women have women’s rights. Aborigines have aboriginal rights.
Same deal – it varies with the place and time.
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Americans have American rights. “Gays” have “gay” rights. Pianos have piano rights.
Non-sequitur.
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Human beings have human rights.
The correct way to state it is that only humans can have human rights.