Weekend question 1-16/17-10
AZStarnet.com reports on a microcosm of a nationwide phenomenon:
As the 37th anniversary of Roe v. Wade approaches, Tucson is seeing a increase in anti-abortion activism….
The election of President Obama, the push for health-care overhaul and Obama’s push for the Freedom of Choice Act – which would eliminate all state restrictions on abortion access – have increased activism, said Kelly Copeland, a local activist.
“We’re in danger of losing everything we’ve gained for 37 years,” said Copeland, a Catholic who plans to open a crisis-pregnancy center on March 25.
The national shift has brought out more activists locally, he said. Beginning last spring, for example, biannual meetings of Tucson for Life, which typically included about 15 attendees, shifted to monthly meetings averaging about 80 activists….
So this past year’s national pro-abortion political activism, often successful, has spurred tangible national, state, and local pro-life activism.
Which side is winning?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Jill, If the Tea party movement keeps going the way it has, then I have no doubt who will win. Those who stand for life! However, Brandi Lozier said, that the christians in the country if they really wanted to, could end abortion in this nation if they wanted to. Just google Brandi Lozier on youtube, and you can listen to her for your your selves! RJ
I used to be an avid emotionally involved Dallas Cowboys fan.
My kids would see me watching the game and ask me, “Are the Cowboys winnng?”
To which I learned (after many painful lessons) to respond by answering, “I don’t know……yet.”
The ‘scoreboard’ was not often a reliable determinator of what was to be until the last second had ticked off the game clock.
After almost four decades and over 50 million murdered children it would be difficult for even the brightest optimist to conclude, “Our team is winning.”
Unfortunately all of our dire projections of what would happen next, have already happened next.
America is a post christian culture, devolving into an anti-christian culture.
But the suffiency of HIS grace is not strained.
Histroy teaches us that empires rise and empires fall. The ‘book’ teaches us that every kingdom will fail and fall, save one.
This one kingdom will prevail over all the others, because the KING cannot fail.
This kingdom does not consist of rules and regulations about do not touch, do not eat but instead exists in the HOLY SPIRIT.
As many as are led by HOLY SPIRIT are sons of God.
The world is changing, but HE is not.
Which side is winning?
HIS!
yor bro ken
“christians in the country if they really wanted to, could end abortion in this nation if they wanted to.”
Here’s the thing – not all Americans are Christians and not all Christians are anti-choice. Somehow, I don’t think that the liberal Protestant churches, those without religion (and they are growing per recent polling data), and non Orthodox Jews will allow the “Christians” to foist their theocracy on them. Just saying….
Yor Bro Ken…you took the words right out of my mouth! Christ will always be on the pro-life side because He conquered death. And we know that Christ will ultimately be victorious so we know we are on the winning side.
Tomorrow is our local march for life and I am going to carry a sign for the first time ever. I just want everyone who walks by to know MY BABY was unplanned. Being unplanned does NOT mean you’re not a person!
Artemis,
Who’s talking theocracy? I don’t think we have to worry about The Sun King returning to rule the good ‘ole USA. Moral behavior goes beyond any religion.
RJ,
I agree with you!
Artemis,
I listen to you and others bemoan a “Christian theocracy” that is certain to descend on us all should abortion become illegal or medical personnel practice according to their religious convictions.
I was alive long before Roe and I don’t recall that we had any “Christian theocracy” in place.
Obviously I have a terrible memory.
Would you please enlighten me as to who the Christian theocrats were that ruled the United States prior to Roe??
Artemis says “will allow the “Christians” to foist their theocracy on them.”
For the millionth time…opposition to abortion is not a religious issue. It spans all faiths, and no faith. Just as an atheist can recognize that is wrong to kill a 5 year old, so can the same atheist realize it’s wrong to kill a preborn child.
I honestly think that pro-lifers, eventually, are going to win this one. I think this for two reasons.
One, the pro-life movement is more motivated. Life is a pretty serious force to have driving you. Choice isn’t bad, presuming that “pro-choice” isn’t actually “anti-child,” which is something that pro-choice rhetoric sounds more and more like lately. But it just doesn’t have the same punch to it as fighting to save innocent human beings from being slaughtered. There aren’t a whole lot of bigger goals to fight for, honestly.
Two, pro-choicers are exhausted. You see this over and over in multiple ways. People actually saying, “We’re tired of this issue. Make it go away.” The mounting anger and frustration as it does not go away. The flat refusal to actually answer pro-life arguments whilst throwing up entirely transparent ad hominem like “Pro-lifers are really anti-woman!” or “You’re all just religious fanatics!” And the smaller and smaller pro-choice counter-demonstrations in the face of a more mobilized and energized pro-life activism. This is what happens when a movement gets tired. And you can not win a political battle that you have no energy to fight.
I don’t think we’ll win in the next five-to-ten years, but I think we’ll win in my lifetime. So long as we stay energized and focused.
Artemis, I’m an atheist, and if Christians want to band together to “foist” their “anti-choice” beliefs on me and the nation as a whole, I’m down with that.
Keli Hu,
You can also add demographic to the equation. Pro-lifers tends to reproduce more, have more kids ect. Pro-choicers want to live their lives and die without or with few children. I don’t know how many pro-choicers have 6 kids, they usually have 1 or 2 children with a few who have 3 and a rare 4. Children generally accept the values of their parents with some exceptions. A Pro-life family with 6 children will quickly outnumber a pro-choicer with 1. Perharps this is why they dislike the Duggars who choose to have 20.
Let’s not forget the woman, men and children who are standing up and saying that abortion has hurt them.
Pro-choicers rhetoric that abortion has nothing but positives consequences is being seen as the lie it is. How often do they insist that woman are relieved to have an abortion, that it is nothing more than a simple surgery such as taking a tooth out. They insist that there are no emotional or physical consequences and that it is not a baby or again that an unborn baby doesn’t feel. Pro-choicers grasp to any reason to rationalize to themselves their pro-choice stance and fail to see reality: abortion is choosing to end the beginning life of a unique and innocent human being.
People are growing and maturing and simply realizing the empty shell and empty promises that abortion offers.
Here, pro-choicers want to “eliminate” the stigma of abortion. It is interesting that in countries where there is little stigma such as Russia and China, abortion is called the reality it is: legalized murder. It is also very interesting that Russia now has a no abortion week where doctors try to convince woman to keep their child and don’t do abortion.
Put everything together and abortion is bound to lose.
You can always tell what is truth because it stands the test of time. Truth doesn’t need to argue. It just IS. All lies unravels onto themselves by themselves
Are unborn children being killed? Yes.
Then the abortionists are winning.
Our movement has almost totally failed in this struggle and the abortionists have had nearly free rein to kill 50,000,000 people over the course of 37 years. Where’s the success? Partial birth abortion ban? Doesn’t save any lives. Parental consent? Saves a few lives, but just snipping around the edges and the killing goes on.
The point is, our movement does not know what it is doing. Pro-life conventions don’t stop the killing, marches for life don’t stop the killing, bloggers don’t stop the killing, lobbyists don’t stop the killing, filing briefs with the Supreme Court doesn’t stop the killing, fighting some anti-life president or another’s “abortion agenda” doesn’t stop the killing, personhood amendments (which always lose) don’t stop the killing, “pro-life” presidents putting abortionist “justices” on the Supreme Court doesn’t stop the killing, pro-life voter “increment” doesn’t stop the killing, NRTL, AUL, ALL, ARTL, SuzyB, none of them stop the killing.
The killing just goes on year after year and we can’t seem to stop it. It is now worth nearly a THOUSAND Vietnams and still it continues devouring our future.
We have committed almost every strategic mistake imaginable and have badly blundered away a very winnable cause. If we were not letting clueless Republican Presidents put abortionists on the Supreme Court, we were letting the GOP pay lip service to our cause while undermining us behind the scenes or we were letting the abortionists take control of all the institutions in society or we were letting the unions beat us every election year or we were conceding the pro-life Black and Hispanic vote to our opponents or we were letting the abortionists evade debate and argument and carry the day in the court of public opinion with campaigns of drivel, doublespeak and disinformation. We have allowed the Catholic Church over forty years to slowly unravel and to accept and grow comfortable with abortionist politicians masquerading as “Catholics” while allowing Protestant and other churches mostly to remain silent.
If we do not get our act together soon and develop a solid strategy for winning this struggle, we may never win.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEeU-Flwfgo Please give your opinion. RJ
Right now, pro-choice is winning.
Pro-life needs to change it’s strategy. Praying in front of clinics and holding signs clearly hasn’t worked for the past several decades. We need a culture change to nature and more peace. Abortion will follow the culture. If the culture becomes more about life- ALL life, including humans, nature, and peace- and less obsessed with progress versus past, then people will become pro-life.
Until we work to change the culture, pro-choice will win.
Just saw this posted on haitirescuecenter.wordpress.com/
“Any Doctors or Nurses who wish to volunteer for service in Haiti are requested
to contact the Dominican Red Cross VIA FAX if you do not speak Spanish
They are operating the staging area hospital and distribution at the border in
Jimani and already have teams with back up in HAITI
Calle Juan Enrique Dunant #51, Ensanche Miraflores,
Santo Domingo, Republica Dominicana.
Teléfono: 809 334-4545, 809-412-8207
Fax: 809 412-8360, 809-238-5252
US Southern Command is working to indentify more doctors, nurses and other
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Send e-mail with:
Name
Contact Info
Area/s of specialization
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to:
Tony Colmenares
colmenarest@usa.redcross.org
786-566-0551-cell
He is coordinating for SouthCom.”
I know there are a lot of nurses on this board,so I thought I’d pass it along.
“For the millionth time…opposition to abortion is not a religious issue. It spans all faiths, and no faith”
So how do you account for the Episcopal Church which adopted a pro-choice position at General Convention in the 90’s? The UCC, Unitarians, and many Methodist groups, are also pro-choice as are Reform and Conservative Jews based on the Talumudic teachings of their rabbis. Many of these clergy are escorts at women’s health clinics. But they’re gonna burn in hell…I know….
And as far as “pro-life” winning by breeding like rabbits – good luck with that. In these tough economic times, the idea of living in third world, multi baby squalor isn’t all that appealing. The Irish Catholic church tried the demographic thing (no abortion, no birth control); but Irish women (smart gals) just said no and now they travel to Britain for their abortions.
But if you think “pro-life” is winning, dream on. “Pro-life” just doesn’t resonate with educated, middle class women – even Republican women who, in the more affluent suburbs, tend to be pro-choice. (Think Christie Todd Whitman). It’s comments like those found here that galvanize us. Thanks for the energy. As far as going back to the “good old days” of the D&C and the back alley – never again. We’re here and we’re not going away. And “praying” outside clinics – it really makes you look rather – ah – pathetic. But if it makes you feel good….
So how do you account for the Episcopal Church which adopted a pro-choice position at General Convention in the 90’s? The UCC, Unitarians, and many Methodist groups, are also pro-choice as are Reform and Conservative Jews based on the Talumudic teachings of their rabbis. Many of these clergy are escorts at women’s health clinics. But they’re gonna burn in hell…I know….
Posted by: Artemis at January 16, 2010 5:43 PM
*waves arms in massive, over-emphasized “slow down” motion*
Hold it, wait, slow down, halt, cease and desist, stop.
You mean to say, it’s okay for religious groups to be involved in the abortion debate on your and that doesn’t violate the separation of church and state, but when religious groups are involved on the pro-life side, it obviously and automatically does?
That’s it, you must be a troll. Either that or you have perfected the art of doublethink.
Yes, Artemis is a troll. He doesn’t answer any of the important arguments that are sent his way. It’s a waste of time hammering the same points over and over again only to have the troll duck and sidestep.
Looking over the first 17 comments, my own view probably most resembles “yor broken” [kbhvac above on Jan. 16 at 12:00 p.m.]. But I share both the hope and discouragement of other pro-life posters as well.
I became involved in the right-to-life movement in 1972. Even in those earliest days it was my expressed opinion that we would not ultimately make major strides against the “death culture” until or unless we had major moral, cultural and political change rooted in a major spiritual renewal of vital Christianity. I also believed then, as I do now, that our battle needs to be faithfully continued on many different fronts.
Echoing back to the reference to the earlier post by kbhvac, I do not know if our decadent, increasingly anti-Christian nation can be averted from disaster. But I do believe that a Holy God as represented by Jesus Christ and the truths of the Scriptures will eventually triumph.
I desire that He will help me and others to walk in His pathway.
Hey Ray,
I like your comment and believe that we are on the cusp of the spiritual renewal with the subsequent moral and cultural improvements to which you refer. And it will be in this new spiritual environment that we will be able to effect the change required in our laws and judiciary to rid our nation of this evil.
Therefore I am very optimistic, and at the same time deeply saddened by the fact that, like Joe said, we lost another 3-4000 children again today.
So today I’d have to say satan won. But I believe momentum is on our side and that in the coming years we will get stronger and stronger, take the fight to him, beat him soundly and establish proper protections for preborn children.
No one should be allowed to kill preborn children, even their mothers.
Remember all you post-abortive Moms out there – there is forgiveness in the shed Blood of Christ.
We have all sinned and fallen short of His Glory.
Go get ’em all you Pro-Lifers down in Houston this weekend! Our prayers are with you!
Artemis:
Go see “The Book of Eli” movie and you will see where our country is extrapolated to as a result of asking Him to leave.
It is foolish and arrogant to think we can live apart from God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit on which our country was founded.
What happened in Haiti will be considered a picnic if our country does not turn back to God and soon.
Artemis, I’m banging my head on the desk here over your complete lack of logic.
Somehow the fact that some religious groups support abortion supports your assumption that opposition to abortion is based only on religion?
Huh? You realize that this makes absolutely no sense. Your argument does nothing to support your claim. Please, try again.
Ed:
Can you biblically support your comment?
I believe we are in the last dyas, i.e., Christ’s return is very, very close.
Just look at the signs bro….Israel, Iran, just everything.
Nat Hentoff is a liberal, atheist who is pro-life.
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/12/nat-hentoff-laid-off-by-villag.html
Jill, I was in Tucson on Saturday. There were over 1200 who attended the mass at St. Augustine Catholic Church celebrated by the Bishop, more who attended a prayer service near by and then they all walked 4.5 miles to Holy Hope Cemetery for a memorial remembrance where over 3500 people gathered. There was a lot of energy and the crowd was made up of all ages. It was very encouraging. Next Sunday there will be a march and rally in Phoenix. As you know these marches and rallies occur throughout the nation over the next week.
Hey Phil,
I believe we are living in the last days as well, Joel 2.28-32, Acts 2.17-21. I’m assuming maybe that you’re refering to my comment “in the coming years” and that perhaps you believe we don’t have two more years? that Jesus will return before 2012?
Wouldn’t that be great! (However, there are some things I’d like to do before He comes.) I just don’t know, “no man knows the day or the hour” Mk 13.32
He is coming back for a church “without spot or wrinkle” Ep 5.27, and I don’t think we’re there yet.
But I don’t consider myself an expert on last days eschatology. I’m sure you know a lot more than I do about the subject.
I guess I don’t have any scriptures that prove we have at least 2 more years. Over the years, I’ve seen books and heard prophecies and testimonies that Jesus would return in year x or year y and years x and y have come and gone. In fact, I was told by a bible teacher in high school not to bother getting a college education because Jesus would return before I had a chance to use it. That was about 30 years ago.
I just plan and work as if He isn’t coming back for 20 more years, but try to be ready in case He comes back today :D
Which side is winning?
Yesterday at a prayer service in Saint Patrick’s Cathedral, Archbishop Dolan shared with us remarks recently made by an avowed abortionist, who told Abp. Dolan that the pro-life movement is winning, because we’re changing hearts.
I believe that Gerard.
You know Phil, I just dozed back off and had a dream. It had that spiritual/prophetic kind of a feel to it. (I guess according to Ac 2.17, that makes me an old man.)
It was very brief, just one scene. I dreamed that I could see and hear a garbage truck picking up trash one block over and that it was very early in the morning, like maybe 5:30-6:30 AM.
Now they usually pick up trash in my neighborhood around 9 or 10 AM. So here’s my interpretation: Get your spiritual house in order, and your trash out to the curb, because He’s coming in an hour that you do not expect.
Parable of the Expectant Steward
?“Let your waist be girded and ?your lamps burning; and you yourselves be like men who wait for their master, when he will return from the wedding, that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately. ?Blessed are those servants whom the master, when he comes, will find watching. Assuredly, I say to you that he will gird himself and have them sit down to eat, and will come and serve them. And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. ?But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would ?have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. ?Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” Lk 12:35-40
I realize that my unbelieving friends out there will probably attribute my dream to the chicken fingers and BBQ sauce I had as a late night snack :)
As an aside, if you’ve never seen the testimony of Stojan Adasevic, it is an absolute must read. You can find it near the bottom of the Conversion Stories listed in the Archives section of this site.
Powerful
FYI, Adasevic was the foremost abortionist in Serbia for over 26 years and killed an estimated 48,000 children.
Posted by: Artemis at January 16, 2010 5:43 PM
“So how do you account for the Episcopal Church which adopted a pro-choice position at General Convention in the 90’s? The UCC, Unitarians, and many Methodist groups, are also pro-choice as are Reform and Conservative Jews based on the Talumudic teachings of their rabbis.”
——————————————————
artfullymixedup or artfullymissed the point,
In the context of a ‘theocracy being foisted’ upon Americans your claim is nonsencical.
[Is that kind of like ‘hellth scare’ being rammed down or shoved up a majority of americans orifices?]
If christiandom/judaism in america is divided on the issue of abortion, aren’t both sides using ‘religion’ to promote their respective perspectives.
If the progressive sectarian humanists, which are represented by some old mainline christian denominations and some liberal strains of Judaism prevail, won’t they be maintaining their ‘theocracy’.
You just happen to agree with their position so their theocracy is OK.
In reality though neither camp has ever managed to achieve a ‘theocracy’ in the United States.
Art, you are stupid, but you are not stupid enough to actually believe what you post, therefore you are artfully dishonest.
Though I do believe in a GOD, even if I were an atheist/humanist the science would convince me that the pre-natal child is a fellow member of the human race and therefore has the same rights, worth and value as you enjoy.
The folks that penned the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution were a helluva lot more intelligent and better educated than either you or I and they made some declarations that they said were self evident which were not necessary to justify their separation from the Brittish monarchy.
They could have cut the sheets soley on the basis of taxation without representation.
But wise and clever men that they were they understood there are only two possble sources for our ‘rights’: God or government. If you deny the existence of God then you make government ‘god’ and nothing or no one is ever secure.
Think about that for a while and determine which worldview is most likely to produce a just society with coherent laws that protect all people regardless of their ‘religious’ perspective.
If you need some real life experience to see what sort of hell on earth a godless humanist state produces just spend some time in China or N. Korea or Cuba.
If you do not have the resources to go to one of those bastions of socialism, then just make some inquiries in the community in which you live and find some refugees who have chosen to leave their home and immigrate to America.
Ask them if they would want to take their children back to enjoy the ‘workers paradise’ they rejected.
Ask them if they see more danger from a ‘christian theocracy’ or the ‘hope and change’ of the progressive/liberal humanists who now control all the branches of our federal government.
yor bro ken
Ed:
I don’t subscribe to the Mayan Calendar, Nostradamus stuff as I believe all this stuff is of the occult, i.e., December 21, 2012 as the last day. The truth is no one know the exact time.
The demons know their time is near and it doesn’t surprise me that they are increasing their demonic activity throughout the world. Legalized abortion is evidence of this.
Having said this, our Lord said we can know when a storm is coming by the signs. Similarly, the signs of he end are everywhere around us as well as the fulfillment of many, many OT prophecies, the first and foremost being the restoration of the country of Israel in 1948. This cannot be ignored.
Hey! This is from my town :D Unfortunately, it didn’t mention the March for Life that Kelly Copeland organizes every year. We had ours saturday, but no word of it in the paper.