Nurse
Last night Rae linked to this short film in the comments section of one of my posts with a little zinger, “Hey Jill, here’s a video that might appeal to you. I bet if you were still a nurse and knew you could get away with this you’d do it in a heartbeat.”
Well, I watched the video, and aside from getting the point of Rae’s jab and finding the film a little freaky, I couldn’t tell whether it was pro-life or pro-abortion.
Bethany found some reviews, and they were mixed, too. Some thought the nurses were pro-life and some thought they were abortion clinic nurses. Some thought the mom got what she deserved, and some thought not. What do you think?
Warning: Read comments after watching video. The ending is discussed!
Mar.29, 2007 10:30 am |
Industry watch |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I believe that it’s a fed up abortion clinic nurse.I’m a nurse,and I’d never be that cruel to anyone.I’d have to put my personal feelings aside,but then again,I wouldn’t work in an ab clinic.
Whoa. Didn’t expect that.
It’s very sad and sickening to watch the mother see what she is served, but I think she (and all those having an abortion) need to see that. It’s the reality of what happens in abortion.
As far as who the nurses are, I would say the second one is a fed-up abortion clinic nurse. The first, I don’t know.
Oh,I just watched it again.I didn’t realize that she was served a dead baby.
In my opinion:
The 1st nurse is the woman’s concience because she feels guitly about what she has done and it is in a dream – This nurse leaves the room and then is somehow leaning over the bed, this doesn’t happen in reality – When this nurse leaves she rolls over on her side in a sleeping position.
The 2nd nurse then awakens her with her food and drink. But when she looks at what she is served, she realizes that she is in a living nightmare that doesn’t end. She will always be looking at the dead child that will never enter her life.
At least that is what I got from it.
So Jill…
WOULD you treat a patient that way if you knew she had an abortion? Baby dinner platter aside, obviously, would you lecture, reprimand, scold, and mistreat her for her decision?
Everyone is entitled to opinions. But no one is entitled to think that this poor woman got what she deserved. That is absolutely disgusting and a low down thing to do. I have no respect for whoever made that film and it is going to do nothing but hurt the pro-life movement.
In an effort to try to appeal to the religious side of this argument, I shall point out something:
According to the Bible, we are all sinners. Thus we have not got the right to judge others even if they have done wrong. Only God has that right.
“If your slate is clean …”
NO ONE would EVER be deserving of such treatment. I guessed the ending halfway through, but the film disgusts me for a myriad of other reasons besides the aborted fetus on a plate.
Valerie
I find your way of seeing the nurses very interesting. I wish I could have seen it like that.
Amanda & Leah
I think the makers of this short film are just trying to make the point that abortion is an act of murder. The TRUTH of the matter is what the woman in the film was served – the dead baby. the truth hurts.
I don’t see this film as meaning to condemn women who have had abortions – I think they are trying to reveal what goes on inside of many womens minds after they’ve had their abortion.
Leah
Check out Romans 8. Those that have given their life to the Lord and follow after the Spirit are not under condemnation. Not everyone is a sinner.
Did you… miss something here, Jill?
The movie is *making fun of* the pro-life position, not advocating it. The film makes you folks out to be barbarous and evil — and you posted it directly?
Jill, are you really so dead-set on playing the role of Stephen Colbert?
This is making fun of pro-lifers? Is that how they really see us?
If that’s the case, these film makers views on abortion are not the only thing that’s warped.
Nah,this little clip is about abortion itself.If it were about something good,acceptable or funny there wouldn’t be a thing to talk about.Go read the stories about the nasty abortionists out there.How about their nasty nurses.Most people that go into healthcare,do so to make others well.When a child is killed during a decision that his/her mother has made,people are going to get upset.
Yeah, this film was created to protray a nurse who’s morals were different than the woman that she was supposed to be taking care of. It’s mocking the tactics that pro-lifers use (large pictures of miscarried/stillborn babies) to try and get people to not have an abortion.
And anyone who thinks that the woman got what she deserved is a sick bastard.
It’s interesting, isn’t it, that just like abortion itself, this movie has evoked strong emotions on both sides, and neither side can “prove” what side the movie was on.
Art imitating life? Maybe that was the point of the movie.
Both sides being explored.
The pro-choice side sees the pro-life side as uncaring and cruel, insisting that a woman must carry her child to term, pointing fingers and heaping on guilt…being judgmental.
The pro-choice side sees the woman as selfish, only thinking of herself (the first thing she says is I am starving) and a person who has just committed murder, but refuses to acknowledge it.
I’m not sure the “director” wants us to know what “side” his is on, I think he’s just pointing out that both sides can appear pretty extreme. No one in the film, not the mother nor the nurse, comes off looking very good.
MK
Right MK.I was on a site filled with stories about former abortion clinic nurses and staff.One nurse said that the two most common responses she heard in the recovery room from women who’d had their abortions were[stoic] “I’m hungry” or[crying] “I’ve just killed my baby.”
Right. So, now I think about it, this film could be interpreted as supporting either side. But the first thing that occurred to me was it supporting the pro-life.
I think the argument that this woman was being self-centered (“I’m hungry”) is a little ridiculous. She’s only human. I think the fact that she was hungry was probably put in the film so that the ending could come about.
Just a feeling …
Ryan – I’m no Bible buff. You’d know better than I would. Now I’ll just have to go by the religious argument simply via my opinion, which is – unless you are God, thou shalt not judge.
Amanda, 1:32p, asked: “So Jill… WOULD you treat a patient that way if you knew she had an abortion? Baby dinner platter aside, obviously, would you lecture, reprimand, scold, and mistreat her for her decision?”
I had a patient once, no more than 30 years old. She was pregnant for the ninth time. She had aborted five times and miscarried three times because of her abortions. Her cervix became so incompetent it was floppy. But she wanted to maintain this pregnancy. To do so, she had her cervix sewn shut and was on complete bedrest.
I gave her professional care.
I actually saw this about two months ago and the website states: “A nurse doesn’t agree with her patient’s decision” (aka is against abortion/pro-life)
But I do agree that the video was created to make people think.
This a link to the website of the person who created it:
http://www.ricardlbefan.com/
I’ve only seen the prositute one.
I think it’s possible to view this video in Valerie’s interpretation, as a woman’s own inner struggle. But I think that the more obvious viewing (which might not be the director’s intent) is that it is sort of an irony about the pro-life cause. The first nurse tells her that she should die. Not a particularly pro-life statement. The nurse is angry that someone did not respect human life, but she wants to see another person dead. The girl is presented as a tragic figure. She looks young, scared, hungry, thirsty. In no way does she come across as the “bad” character. The first nurse is portrayed as cruel, unmerciless, unflinching in her disdain for the young girl. Then the second nurse comes in, seeming to offer hope to the young girl. Gone are the torments of the first nurse who reviled her and made a difficult time more difficult. But the nurse coming in the guise of comfort is once again exposing her vitriolic tendencies. Basically saying, “eat this” to use colloquial and literal terms. I definitely see this as not necessarily a pro-choice video, but as at least a message to pro-lifers. It does not help to condemn those who have already had abortions, to tell them that they should die and burn in hell. It is better to teach love and acceptance and to try and use sympathetic guidance to help someone see how they might have made a wrong choice. It does not help, if someone is drowning, to push their head under. It does not help the pro-life cause to condemn and vilify women who have had abortions.
Danielle,I just watched that video you posted.It kept my intrest,but I didn’t get the meaning.Did you?
I saw it as the lack of respect for people who go into prositution and how (some) men are so driven by their desires that they’ll do anything to satify them.
What was with the meat?
Mom,
I also watched the video…this guy is one seriously strange dude. (the director)
I think that the man came in and paid a woman for the priveledge of using her. That she died during the process as far as he was doing so was inconsequential. She took money, and said “use me”.
He paid money and said “okay”.
I think it points out the way men and women “use” each other all the time.
I don’t know if the director meant to portray this, but it also (to me) illustrated what we have been saying all along. Casual sex, sex that is for selfish pleasure and not for the unitive quality that total-selfgiving, can only lead to “death”. Death of the relationship there was none), death of the person (the prostitute), and most importantly, death of the soul(the guy).
But what do I know?
MK
That she died during the process as far as he was doing so was inconsequential.
oops, that should have read…That she died during the process as he was doing so was inconsequential.
I usually proofread before I post these things but the kids are clamoring for dinner. Barefoot and to the kitchen for me…bb later.
mk
I always find it crazy how many different interprations can come of something even as short and simple as these videos. It just goes to show that ambiguity gets people talking.
Wow. I am absolutely shocked that any one of you, who claim to be Christians, would say that this woman was treated as she deserved because she had an abortion!
Lets say for a minute I’ll agree with you that aborition is wrong. Jesus dealt with a lot of people who had done wrong…and how did he treat them? With love, patience, understanding, and respect. THAT is how he came to be worshipped. If he had walked up to them in disgust and said “you get what you deserve, you sinner”, our concept of Christianity would be VERY, VERY different.
So much for compassion and understanding… I wasn’t aware that anyone who believed in Christ felt they had any right to play God and judge women for their actions and mistreat them.
Absolutely disgusting…and so far from Christian… I’m really legitamately dissapointed and shocked. You people represent a very extreme portion of Pro Life… most that I know reach out to women who’ve had abortions with love and understanding in hopes that they can stop them from having another one. I dont know how anyone who claims a young girl deserves being mistreated for having an abortion could call themselves pro life, when that is so very ANTI life.
Whoa, Amanda, I say, whoa. You need to calm down and dismantle from that high horse.
You breathlessly said, “Wow. I am absolutely shocked that any one of you, who claim to be Christians, would say that this woman was treated as she deserved because she had an abortion!”
After you breathe into a paper bag for a few minutes, can you show us where anyone said that here?
That said, I would find it perfectly acceptable for a mother to have to see that which she just aborted.
Amanda,I didn’t see where anyone did say that she deserved it.People in society judge others every day.Like it or not,it’s human nature.When I watch the local news about a murderer being sentenced,the survivors of the victim generally get to make a speech.9 times out of 10 the surviving family member goes to the podium and tells the killer to “Rot in Hell!” and “I wish I could flip the switch on you!”Hey, that’s how they feel.I can’t change it. I’d never pull the family member aside and tell them “Hey,you were really out of line!”
Hi Jill,we must have been posting at the same time.My friend actually did get to see her aborted child @ her own request.She was about 12 weeks along @ the time of her abortion.
high horse? for being surprised anyone would support denying a patient dignity based on her personal decision? hahhaha
Im pro choice, remember? There is no high horse, I dont judge women that have abortions…its that simple. Im a Christian, and I know its not Christian to judge people.
And how can you honestly compare the family of a murdered loved one to a nurse who knows a patient had an abortion, Momof3? It wasnt the nurse’s pregnancy, it wasnt the nurses choice, and she didn’t know the patient in the first place. Having very recently gone through having a friend be murdered – I can tell you that the two are about as far from one another as two things can possibly be.
“Whoa, Amanda, I say, whoa. You need to calm down and dismantle from that high horse.”
*ahem*
Jill, I believe the correct term would be “dismount” as “dismantle” means to take something apart, where as “dismount” means to get off of something.
“That said, I would find it perfectly acceptable for a mother to have to see that which she just aborted.”
I knew you would…which is precisely why I gave you the link to this video. You’re such a kind and loving Christian woman. I wish I could be more like you. :)
Rae,
You’re such a kind and loving Christian woman. I wish I could be more like you. :)
I wish you could too Rae, I really do.
You bring this video to Jill. Jill says okay I’ll bite even though your attempt at manipulation is as obvious as a two year olds.
You, without so much as a single constructive comment, accuse her of being this nurse, and then you attack her when she put YOUR video up for discussion.
For a guy that’s so contemptuous of the misuse of the English language, your inability to communicate on anything above a first grade level is amusing.
Let us know when you have something worth saying.
mk
Danielle,
I understand you horror at the idea of christians wanting to serve a woman her dead baby on a platter.
I understand because I feel the exact same horror when I think of anyone killing their baby.
I agree that it would be unchristian to treat a woman who has had an abortion this way.
I also think it is unchristian to treat a child this way.
I try to see things the way you do when you express your difference of opinion, surely you can try to see ours.
Nobody here said that that poor wretched girl got what she deserved.
All we are saying is that the baby didn’t deserve what was done to it either.
mk
Three of my sons are in college. At different points in time, they have each come to me, independent of each other, to discuss our faith.
I realized early on that they were “spitting” back to me, things that had been told to them in their college courses.
All religions have merit. Homosexuals just are that way, we have to be more (oh God here comes that word again) tolerant.
I started to think they were being brainwashed.
It was the same words from three different sons, from three different colleges, say identical things.
Now on this site, I hear from 6 or 7 different college age girls supporting a woman’s right to choose.
And lo and behold, the same thing is happening. I wasn’t sure if I was imagining it, so I went onto a couple of pro-choice blogs this afternoon. Guess what…I could have been talking to anyone of you guys.
Personal autonomy was a favorite expression. My body…oh yeah, that one came up a lot. And let’s not forget “choice”…personal decision, not your choice, tolerance, and oh yes, fetus, feti, blastocyst, embryo…
All of my boys went through the “I’m just trying to be myself. I’m not going to be influenced by anyone or anything. I dress like this because I’m making a statement. I’m a nonconformist. stage.
Except that everyone of them looked exactly like every other college student. I would tell them if they really wanted to stand out they should put on a tie, cut their hair and take the earring out of their ear (cuz that was waaayyyy original-not).
They didn’t get it.
When I hear the same words being thrown out by young pro-choice women, I have to ask myself. If all of them are free thinkers, individuals with questioning minds, not influenced by society, able to make “decisions” for themself, by themself…
why is it, I ask, that they all sound like they are reading from a script?
Do you really believe the things you are saying, or do you just believe what you have been fed. Just wondering in all sincerity, if you have thought about this without listening to all the voices you guys are surrounded by, pounding this stuff into your heads.
Maybe you really did come by this on your own. If so, I apologize. It’s just that when I was 21, these things would never have entered my mind. Unless someone from the outside put them there.
I really, really, really, don’t mean to upset anyone. I was just thinking…
mk
Amanda,
Im pro choice, remember? There is no high horse
Sorry, I couldn’t help myself.
MK
are you seriously saying that we SHOULDNT be tolerant of homosexuals?
because if you are… that respect I said I held for you just flew right out the window.
My friend, Micheal Sandy, was set up by 4 young white guys, beaten, robbed, and murdered. He was gay and black. The boys made a fake personal ad looking for a gay black man, with the intention of beating him up. They claim they didnt mean to kill him. Mike was a devout Christian, a hard worker, a loyal friend, and a wonderful person with a wonderful sense of humor who didn’t have a mean bone in his body. He died scared, in pain, and alone on the side of a highway… because of intolerance.
You can tell me all you want that being intolerant doesn’t mean you advocate violence towards gays, but that violence STEMS from intolerance. If it wasnt for intolerance, it wouldnt happen.
I can understand and respect people for being against abortion. I can understand that we’ll never all agree. But supporting intolerance towards gays is something else entirely: its hatred and bigotry. There is nothing to debate about homosexuality. Homophobes are bigots, and I cannot respect bigots.
Hopefully you’ll meet Mike in Heaven, MK, because despite what all of the ignorant homophobes say – I know he’s there.
As far as I’m concerned,abortion is murder.You can dress it up anyway you want to,but it’s still going to be murder.{where are ya with those equations His Man?]I am not all that surprised that you are attacking Jill.I went to project Rachel a few times,only to hear women say that you pro-choicers are the first to label them nut jobs for regretting their abortions.This is why they turn to us.They want healing,not ridicule!They claim that they were taunted for naming their aborted children.They found no comfort in your lies any longer.With the nasty way most of you come off on this blog,I believe what they say.
Rae, 6:35p… “Dismantle,” “dismount”… You got me. I’m laughing so hard… I’m trying to tell my husband what I did… rofflll
MK,
While I have learned a lot from other pro-choice people, if you read my journals from before I even began looking into abortion or became political, I had the same views.
And gay people are born gay. If not, then when did you decide to become heterosexual? I have a number of gay friends who get treated like sh*t by Christian groups because their life style is a choice and a “sin.” They also get harassed by others who think that being homosexual is disgusting while religion might not be involved. Although majority of the things I’ve seen religion has been at the very root of it.
Two of my friends were being harassed just today for holding hands while walking through the college campus, while me and my boyfriend walked just a few steps behind them also holding hands. What did we do? We stood up again these people who were calling them names. Is this just going with the norm? Standing up for people’s rights is conforming now? Should I just have turned blind eye as my friends were being harassed for being in love? Which is what I see a lot of other people doing. Saying it’s their fault because they chose to be gay and not batting an eye at the horrors that the gay community faces.
While granted in high school, I probably would have leaned more toward pro-life because pregnancy/sex weren’t things on my mind, but I never understood why someone would want to force a woman to carry a child that she didn’t want. To me that seemed cruel to not only the mother, but the child as well. The supporting of gay rights has been with me since I first saw friends being harassed for who they liked. And growing up in musicals, one tends to be around a wide variety of people.
I wouldn’t say that studying vampyrism or Wiccan is going with the crowd. People tend to shy away from those things. I’ve been an atheist since I got over my Jesus phase. While my mom might have been a witch to me growing up, the over all attitude of my house was to experiment and learn.
I believe very strongly that gays should have the same rights as heterosexual couples. Also that all religions (even though I don’t agree with their belief in a God) have merits. After all who knows for certain what happens after we die. No one knows who’s right and whose wrong. Everyone has to find the religion or non-belief that fits them.
I’ve questioned society my entire life. College didn’t change any of my views, its just helped me learn more about them as well as meet people who feel the same way.
Amanda,
You just made me cry… I don’t know what I would do if this happened to any of my friends… :(
“Rae,
You’re such a kind and loving Christian woman. I wish I could be more like you. :)
I wish you could too Rae, I really do.
You bring this video to Jill. Jill says okay I’ll bite even though your attempt at manipulation is as obvious as a two year olds.
You, without so much as a single constructive comment, accuse her of being this nurse, and then you attack her when she put YOUR video up for discussion.
For a guy that’s so contemptuous of the misuse of the English language, your inability to communicate on anything above a first grade level is amusing.
Let us know when you have something worth saying.
mk”
MK-
I never accused Jill of being the nurse. I merely implied that if she could do that, she would, as she is evidently a pro-life fanatic (as are you). It’s a shame really, that people like you value the life of the unborn over the already born.
I wasn’t attacking her either, I was simply stating that she confirmed my initial thoughts.
I am also amused by your “Christian” attack on my character by claiming that I am unable to communicate. I also find it quite hilarious that you think “Rae” is a male name. If you are wondering, “Rae” is a female name, and it’s Hebrew for “ewe”. So I think you can take your little ad hominem rant against me and stuff it.
And Jill, I’m glad you find humor in your mistakes. If only you’d notice how humorous so many of your other mistakes (ie…this entire blog) are.
Thanks Danielle…
it just happened on October 12th. Its still hard because I have to drive by the spot where it happened every day on my way home from work.
There is NOTHING more evil than hatred and intolerance.
But I know he’s in a better place now where hateful fools aren’t judging him for being who he is.
The intolerance for the gay community sickens me. And until, MK or any homophobes, sit and try and comfort a friend while they’re freaking out because someone was stalking them through campus calling them a faggot they will never understand.
I have the utmost respect for my friends from Pride. They are some of the bravest people that I know. And I’ve learned so much strength from them.
I have absolutely no respect for anyone who preaches intolerance against them or who sits by apathetically while it happens.
Yeah Danielle – I think I had a harder time dealing with the bigots than Mike did. He was a lot more religious than I am… every so often someone would say or do something to him at work, and I’d be ready to blow a fuse, and he’d say something like…”dont worry about it, they’ll be apologizing to God at some point”. But the fact is – he was the type of person who just about everyone liked. At his service, several of our coworkers said that knowing Mike changed the way they thought about gays. That was really incredible…and it hurts knowing he was taken away before he could have that effect on more people. Reading this blog reminds me how badly thats needed.
regardless of what side i’m on. this is appaling. i hope no one takes this seriously because it’s a horrible ending. i can’t eat the scrambled eggs i just made.
it’s not even a good short, it’s cheesy. i can’t even take it seriously. the point of it was to understand what a woman has to go internally after an abortion. it’s all in her head. i don’t think it’s either. he’s making a point about how she knows she will be ostrasized. it doesn’t do a good job at getting the point across because it’s too ambiguous.
(i’m i film major, so that’s the snob in me haha.)
Wow, you guys really need to take some reading comprehension courses.
MK did not advocate hating, or being unkind homosexuals at all, not once. Reread her post again, maybe you’ll figure that out. Maybe not.
Wrong Bethany. MK was talking about her children coming to her during their college years, spewing “conformity.”
Her sons believed: “All religions have merit. Homosexuals just are that way, we have to be more (oh God here comes that word again) tolerant.”
And the fact that she thinks it’s just “going with the crowd” shows a lack of understanding for the gay community.
Bethany,
MK said:
“I realized early on that they were “spitting” back to me, things that had been told to them in their college courses.
All religions have merit. Homosexuals just are that way, we have to be more (oh God here comes that word again) tolerant.
I started to think they were being brainwashed.”
She is saying that the idea that one should be more tolerant of homosexuals is some leftist liberal brainwashing.
Intolerance IS hatred, and people who are hateful are unkind.
I comprehend quite well, but thanks anyway.
Abortionists are hateful and abortion is a hate crime!!!!You are condoning the murder of an innocent child!
momof3,
Do you have a mental problem? Seriously, your quote had absolutely nothing to do with want we were talking about…. And who exactly are you talking to??
momof3…
what?!?!
What are you even responding to??
Amanda –
I am so sorry about your friend. How horrible. He is watching over you and he is still letting people know how human gays are – he is doing it through you. Never lose that.
I don’t think I had a ‘straight’ male friend in college. That is why I didn’t date much. ;-) Being Catholic, I wondered about the rights and wrongs of it. I talked to my Mom about it. And I loved her response. She said that there are sins that we are allowed to judge. Stealing, Murder, etc. Things that we go to jail for. Then there are the questionable sins. The one’s we are not allowed to judge. White lies, etc. We have to let God decide if they are sinners or not, it is not up to us. She said we have to “love the sinner and not the sin. And always remember that this means we have to love everyone because we are all sinners.”
Sometimes it is difficult for me to remember that. Especially when topics like this get my blood boiling. Maybe her words can stretch out and reach some of us here.
Amanda and Danielle,
I posted this a couple of weeks ago but you guys weren’t here then. I’m reposting it again because I think you misunderstood my point about homosexuals.
When I made it I thought that you already knew how I felt.
This particular post is a very difficult one for me.
While I do believe that homosexual acts are sinful, I do not believe that homosexuals are inherently evil.
80% of children with down syndrome are aborted. 80%.
If we found a way to undo down’s syndrome in utero, I’m not sure I would think that was a good idea either. Doing something to prevent this particular gene anamoly to take place before the child was conceived might be something I would consider.
My point is that, a down syndrome child, is fully human and deserves the same respect as any other human being. They are not lesser human beings simply because they have obvious disabilities. God created them that way and they should be cherished
because of who they are, not in spite of who they are. But they are going to have to do things differently than the general population. They are called to carry a different cross than I am.
By the same token, someone born a homosexual, has differences that can and should be celebrated. Sensitivity, Creativity, Gentleness and wicked senses of humor are just some of the gifts that I have observed. However, just like a person with down syndrome, I believe they would have to do some things differently than the average person. They too, have been called to carry a different cross than I have. And I’m not sure homosexuality should be treated like a disease, and I know that homosexuals themselves should not be treated like pariahs.
They should be loved and cherished because of who they are and not in spite of who they are. We all should. But we all have things in this life that we have to overcome, whether it’s drug addiction, mental illness, infertility, hyperfertility, poverty, buck teeth…whatever.
I have five sons, and I believe it is a sin to sleep with their girlfriends before marriage. (they don’t listen of course.) This does not change my love for them. The same rule applies to homosexuals. Being homosexual is not the issue. Having sexual relations outside of marriage is.
So do we fix them? I think no, because I don’t think they are broken. But we can guide them to a happier and healthier lifestyle. And if they still choose to live where they are acting on their tendencies…well, that would be their decision. I would continue to pray for them, and talk to them about these choices, but I would never condemn them.
Heck, If I was only willing to go to a church where everyone was perfect they wouldn’t let me. And I wouldn’t be able to find one anyway. All of us are doing things that we shouldn’t be doing. All of us should remember that ultimately we are all on the same side. Each others. What else do we have?
MK
Amanda,
What happened to your friend Michael makes my stomach turn.
I am truly sorry that this happened. I hope the “men/boy” who did this to him are kept locked up for a very, very long time.
What human beings are capable of doing to each other boggles the mind.
God bless,
MK
I was pointing out that abortion was still just as much of a crime.Very violent.I also have a very dear friend that is gay.He is in the end stages of AIDS.I know all about the prejudices homosexuals face.Like I mentioned on another post,I’m not sure if it’s a chosen lifestyle or if a person is born this way.I have heard both from people in the gay community.How do we even know if THEY know.I am sorry about your friend’s brutal death as well Amanda.It’s tragic.
Hi Rae… Your name is my middle name. :P
I always thought it was really pretty. :)
momof3,
Do you have a mental problem? Seriously, your quote had absolutely nothing to do with want we were talking about…. And who exactly are you talking to??
Making a mistake and responding to the wrong post makes you mentally ill?
“I was pointing out that abortion was still just as much of a crime.Very violent.”
Mom – You’re saying that a LEGAL surgical abortion is just as much of a violent crime as a 28 year old man being set up, BEATEN, AND MURDERED because of his race and sexuality???
Wow – Im speechless.
MK – You say “The same rule applies to homosexuals. Being homosexual is not the issue. Having sexual relations outside of marriage is.”
Well guess what – our homophobic government PREVENTS them from getting married. My aunts have been together for 15 years. They would love to be married, but they CANT. So based on your interpretation of the sin, its not them thats sinning, its the government who prevents them from marrying.
Wow. Im honestly speechless.
Yes,Bethany.There accusations don’t surprise me at all.This is what I’ve heard from women whom have aborted and tried to find comfort in the CHOICE side afterward. None to be found at all!They claim that they were mocked,ridiculed and totally ousted. This is a real evil group.Amanda works in healthcare.I’d be real leary of her.I’m gettin a bad vibe.
Oh,what if I did have a mental problem? Are you making fun of me?
Yes,Bethany.There accusations don’t surprise me at all.This is what I’ve heard from women whom have aborted and tried to find comfort in the CHOICE side afterward. None to be found at all!They claim that they were mocked,ridiculed and totally ousted. This is a real evil group.Amanda works in healthcare.I’d be real leary of her.I’m gettin a bad vibe.
I’m getting the same vibe, Momof3.
And you’re so right…the poor women who suffer after abortion dont even get the care they are promised by the “pro – choice” crowd before their abortion. Pro-aborts are so concerned with proving that women don’t suffer from abortion that they totally ignore the pain and force them to search elsewhere for the comfort and forgiveness they so desperately need.
Bethany,I feel that these women are shunned simply because they came out of the darkness.The CHOICE side doesn’t ever want you to see the fetus,embryo,whatever they are calling it these days, as a human .That will blow the lid off their web of lies.When the post-abortive woman seeks solace,it’s no wonder she’s not given any comfort.
Erm, momof3,
Every single pro-chocier I know is fully aware that embryos are human. What else would they be? potatoes?
Every single pro-chocier I know is fully aware that embryos are human. What else would they be? potatoes?
Exactly, Joe…what else would they be? I’m pretty sure that’s her point.
And Bethany,
you are wrong about the focus on proving that women do not suffer after abortions. It is true that there are studies conducted in the field, but it should be as the vast amjority of studies is a search for all the bad effects on women.
i think every woman eneding comfort should be given proper assistance and it is very sad and also condmenable if that cannot be provided.
And Bethany,
you are wrong about the focus on proving that women do not suffer after abortions. It is true that there are studies conducted in the field, but it should be as the vast amjority of studies is a search for all the bad effects on women.
i think every woman needing comfort should be given proper assistance and it is very sad and also condmenable if that cannot be provided.
joe, I’m glad that you want to help those women, and comfort them…however, not all pro-choice people do. In fact, most don’t.
if you go to a Planned parenthood site, it says that any sadness the mother may feel is most likely due to hormone changes, and dismisses the fact that women might really suffer long term depression after an abortion. They offer counseling, but make it sound as though suffering from abortion is rare, which it is not.
joe it feels SO good to agree with you on something. :)
You have a bad vibe?
Because I have opinions, and a degree that backs them up, as well as years of experience actually working with the people you love to make gross generalizations about?
well yeah… I guess to you, educated, independent, no nonsense women who defend their beliefs would be a little intimidating…
Amanda,You could have degrees out the ying yang. Who cares? Where is the degree that says murder is acceptable? You say you have a degree that backs your opinions up? What does it say?
well yeah… I guess to you, educated, independent, no nonsense women who defend their beliefs would be a little intimidating…
Uh… no, I don’t think that’s it. Nice try though.
Perhaps Amanda is that nasty abortion clinic nurse in the video.You mocked that young girl in another post. The 13 year old that kept her baby. Why did you make fun of her? Was it because, in your expert opinion, she should have had an abortion? What kind of a doctor or nurse are you going to make? Where is your compassion?
“In fact, most don’t.
if you go to a Planned parenthood site, it says that any sadness the mother may feel is most likely due to hormone changes, and dismisses the fact that women might really suffer long term depression after an abortion. They offer counseling, but make it sound as though suffering from abortion is rare, which it is not. ”
Bethany-
Do you know why women who have abortions feel depressed? It’s because of people like you and other supposed “pro-lifers” who call these women whores or murderers and that they are in need of “forgiveness from the Lord”. You “pray” for them because you feel their decisions are mistakes. I suppose if so many people you meet sees your personal decision as wrong and a mistake, you’d get depressed too.
“Perhaps Amanda is that nasty abortion clinic nurse in the video.You mocked that young girl in another post. The 13 year old that kept her baby. Why did you make fun of her? Was it because, in your expert opinion, she should have had an abortion? What kind of a doctor or nurse are you going to make? Where is your compassion?”
Momof3-
In my opinion, that’s uncalled for. I know Amanda to be a very compassionate person. I think you are being very judgemental. I dare say you ought to cool your heels for a bit, calm down and quit attacking people who disagree with your views.
I mocked her?
Please re-read the post about her and explain to me how I mocked her.
I work with sexually active teen girls. Some of them have abortions, some of them dont. I don’t judge them – EITHER way. Thats why its a CHOICE. I dont understand how any one couldnt grasp the concept of that word.
Do you know why women who have abortions feel depressed? It’s because of people like you and other supposed “pro-lifers” who call these women whores or murderers and that they are in need of “forgiveness from the Lord”. You “pray” for them because you feel their decisions are mistakes. I suppose if so many people you meet sees your personal decision as wrong and a mistake, you’d get depressed too.
Nice try, Rae, but pro-lifers are the first people to step in and give comfort and love to women who have had abortions. They are most often the last to condemn them if they come to a pro-lifer for support in that time.
Type in Healing after abortion in Google, and see if any pro-choice websites come up. Go ahead, try it out.
“Nice try, Rae, but pro-lifers are the first people to step in and give comfort and love to women who have had abortions. They are most often the last to condemn them if they come to a pro-lifer for support in that time.
Type in Healing after abortion in Google, and see if any pro-choice websites come up. Go ahead, try it out. ”
Bethany-
The pro-life movement’s idea of “helping women with abortions to heal” is to make them feel as guilty as possible for ever having had an abortion in the first place and then making the ask God for forgiveness for their egregious sin. That is pretty much what I’ve gotten out of those pro-life “healing” websites, because I have google-searched them before.
Also, the majority of PP chapters run support groups for women who’ve had abortions.
Just because they dont have a website, doesn’t mean they dont exist. In this case, giving women a website with a lecture telling them why the feel a certain way would be condescending and insulting. Instead, they see licensed therapists or social workers, not self righteous people with a political agenda behind their actions.
I am a volunteer at a local organizaton to help pregnant women. This is a religious organization for women who need help financially, emotionally and spiritually when they are experiencing an unwanted pregnancy. We help them before, during and after pregnancy.
Some women who sign up eventually end up having abortions. We ask them to tell us when they are going to do it so we can call them afterward to make sure they are okay. We do not critisize, torment, or judge. Sometimes they need help going to follow-up appts and we make sure they get there. We do this because we care about the women and even though we do not agree with abortion, we do not agree with attacking people in this situation.
I personally have never met a pro-lifer who would do anything of the things they have been accused of on the site.
Valerie,
Thank you. My sentiments exactly. I’m out of sorts today, and feeling rather combative. Last night was a little much for me.
The reason we even offer post abortion counseling is because we don’t want women to get stuck in the past.
What happened yesterday is over, and today is a new day. What can we do to help you move on?
I harbor no ill feelings towards women who have had abortions. I recognize their pain. I have seen first hand the havoc it wreaks on their lives.
They can get stuck in that moment, mired in the despair. I don’t want them punished. I don’t want to add to the pain, I want to subtract from it.
But mostly I want to keep them from ever having to experience it in the first place.
Since most of the girls on this site claim they have never and would never have an abortion, they can’t know what women who have had them go through. I myself have never experienced one either, but I have talked to dozens of women who have. They are either bitter, defensive or depressed. I can honestly say, that I have never met a happy post abortive woman unless she has come to terms with the abortion and admitted to herself that she made a mistake.
Have you?
MK
“Nice try, Rae, but pro-lifers are the first people to step in and give comfort and love to women who have had abortions. They are most often the last to condemn them if they come to a pro-lifer for support in that time. ”
*dies laughing*
Pro-lifer delusions FTW!
“I personally have never met a pro-lifer who would do anything of the things they have been accused of on the site.’
I have met many and the number grows everyday.
Danielle, the examples of “pro-life” people that you had mentioned talking to did not sound pro-life at all. A person who is pro-life does not want to take the life of the mothers who abort their children. So even though you’d like all the pro-lifers to fit into that mold, you’re wrong. Has anyone here treated you with the awful unkindness that you have described coming from other sites? i don’t think so. Yet you don’t talk about any of your discussions here when you talk about the pro-life people you have met…you dwell on the most negative comments from other forums, and decide that they speak for all pro-life advocates. And they don’t speak for any pro-life advocate. A true pro-life person wants to protect life, not hurt or destroy it.
And anyone who would condemn your mother for an ectopic pregnancy is either not pro-life or is seriously misinformed about what an ectopic pregnancy actually is.
“This is a real evil group.Amanda works in healthcare.I’d be real leary of her.I’m gettin a bad vibe.”
“I’m getting the same vibe, Momof3.”
“And you’re so right…the poor women who suffer after abortion dont even get the care they are promised by the “pro – choice” crowd before their abortion. Pro-aborts are so concerned with proving that women don’t suffer from abortion that they totally ignore the pain and force them to search elsewhere for the comfort and forgiveness they so desperately need.”
Who are you to decide someone desperately needs forgiveness? That is between an individual and God, and unless I missed a memo, you’re not Him. And are you two “leary” of all the other people who post here who work in healthcare, or just the ones who disagree with your assertion that women should be forced to gestate? So you are who people turn to when they suffer after an abortion? You people who say that abortion is murder, and abortionists are murderers? I can really see that happening; a woman needs help after a traumatic experience, so she goes to someone who calls her a murderer.
I don’t call post abortive women murderers.They are quick to give themselves this label.I can’t help what I am told.Post abortive women have said to me that every time they sought comfort or solace from the CHOICE side,there wasn’t ANY to be found!!!!!!!Perhaps someone could provide a list that I am unaware of.
Sam,
Who are you to decide someone desperately needs forgiveness? That is between an individual and God,
Yes it is. The problem is the women who feel guilt after an abortion don’t believe that God would welcome them.
I’m not arguing that all women who have abortions are seeking forgiveness. I’m just saying that those who are (and these are the ones who seek out the Rachel’s Vineyards) don’t feel that they are good enough anymore to speak to God. Of course, this in not true. But they don’t believe it. We’re not forcing anyone to ask for forgiveness. We’re talking about women who are seeking it. They need to know that God’s mercy is infinite. There is NOTHING that a person can do, that cannot be forgiven. They have a hard time accepting this. Once they do, their healing begins.
mk
okay – WAAAY off topic here but what does FTW mean?
Now I know I’m getting delusional. I’m going to have to say that I agree with something Samantha T. said. You are very right when you say that forgiveness is up to the person and God. This is why I and no one I know has ever judge anyone who has an abortion.
I live in ‘the heartland’ of the USA. I’m beginning to think this must be the right place to live. I have never met a pro-lifer or a pro-choicer who acts in manners that has been described here. I hope I never do meet one like that!
I just re-read my post
The delusional thing was suppose to be a joke but I think it sounded mean, so I wanted to correct it. I meant it to mean that Samantha and I just don’t agree on much, and it is kinda nice to be on the same side even in it is just in a little way (Even though forgiveness is huge!)
Amanda, 11:12a, said, “Also, the majority of PP chapters run support groups for women who’ve had abortions.”
Amanda, I believe that to be patently false. That would fly in the face of PP’s insistence that women feel relief after abortions, not sadness. Please corroborate.
Jill – this is taken directly from the national PP website, ppfa.org
“Feelings After an Abortion
Most women feel relief. Some women feel anger, regret, guilt, or sadness for a little while. Sudden hormonal changes may intensify these feelings.
Some people who oppose a woman’s right to make her own reproductive decisions claim that abortion often causes long-lasting emotional problems, or “post-abortion syndrome.” There is no scientific proof for these claims.
Emotional Problems After Abortion
Serious, long-term emotional problems after abortion are extremely rare and less common than they are after childbirth. Such problems are more likely if
the pregnancy was wanted but the health of the fetus or the woman was in danger
having an abortion is related to serious problems in a relationship or other disturbing life events
a woman is depressed or has other emotional problems that predate her pregnancy
If you need to talk with someone after an abortion, abortion providers can talk with you or refer you to a counselor.”
All clinics have counselors and social workers on staff. The one I interned at had twice weekly support groups (1 in English, 1 in Spanish) overseen by a clinical social worker.
And YOUR statements are the ones that are patently false… PP has never claimed that ALL women feel relief after their abortions, only that MANY do. Which I know to be true both from talking to women at PP, and working with young girls outside of PP.
Amanda, I’m sorry if I wasn’t clear. I didn’t mean that you had to corroborate that PP says mothers feel relief after abortions. Of course PP would say that. And I didn’t make a sweeping statement to say PP says “all” mothers will experience relief.
I wanted corroboration of your statement, “the majority of PP chapters run support groups for women who’ve had abortions,” and not just anecdotal.
PP’s assertion that there is no evidence of long-term psychological damage after abortion is what is patently false. Again, what else would you expect the United States’ largest abortion provider to say?
Valerie, I know we are on different sides of the fence when it comes to the whole abortion debate. I understand how you would feel that a child is such a blessing, especially given what you have been thru with your son. I want you to know that even tho we dont agree on this, I have a lot of respect for the way you have fought for your family and the way you have persevered thru a difficult situation. Altho I support choice, I feel that your story is an inspiration to women to hope for the best and be strong in the face of adversity.
There is a PP down the street from me.This clinic only does abortion referrals. I’m going to give them a call tomorrow and ask them if there is a support group for post abortive women.
I am very interested to know the results, momof3.
Mom,
Ditto.
MK
Hi MK and Bethany.I’m up making the coffee.I’ll probably call around 9am[ET] Truth is,I’d really like to know.I’ve never heard of Planned Barren-hood offering anything.Well,just abortions,of course.
MK and Bethany, I wonder why everyone seems to think that we are exaggerating when it comes to the number of women we know that have had abortions.Look at how many are done each year.We’re bound to know them aren’t we? This procedure is totally abused.
Momof3 , I agree…and I would be really surprised if they did have support groups, because it would totally disprove their theory that post abortive syndrome is real. What’s the point of a support group if you feel relief? :)
And as for knowing women who have had abortions, exactly! How could we NOT know someone who had an abortion when they happen so often!
oops, that should have read, “That post abortive syndrome is NOT real”
MK,Bethany,Jill,and to all my pro-life pals.PP offers no counseling after abortion services!
Honestly.
Most women feel relief after abortion. Not all of them do. Just because PP offers counseling doesn’t negate that statement.
The services are there IF they are needed. It’s not like they force you to go through it.
One last thing…just curious. So that one PP clinic has no after abortion services. What was the point of that?
Mom –
First you said that the PP near you only offers abortion referral services. So why would they offer counseling if abortions dont take place there?
All of the PPNY chapters offer counseling, because in NY, the abortions are performed in the centers themselves, whereas in a lot of other locations, as you said, they do referrals to private clinics. Of course I cant speak for any other PP chapters, only PPNY.
I decided to call the other clinic instead.The clinic that does perform abortions.It’s in Bedford,Ohio.Nope.No counseling services.
Wait a minute, Amanda. You’re apparently trying to gloss over something you said a couple days ago. On 3/30, 11:12a, you said, “Also, the majority of PP chapters run support groups for women who’ve had abortions.”
Amanda, prove it, and no anecdotal evidence, please. I want to see in black and white.
Also, the majority of PP chapters run support groups for women who’ve had abortions.
Just because they dont have a website, doesn’t mean they dont exist. In this case, giving women a website with a lecture telling them why the feel a certain way would be condescending and insulting. Instead, they see licensed therapists or social workers, not self righteous people with a political agenda behind their actions.
Amanda, it wouldn’t make sense for Planned Parenthood to provide counseling for women after abortion, since they claim that 98 percent of women feel extreme relief after having an abortion, not sadness..and they claim that any depression after abortion is non-existant, and that we pro-lifers just “made it up”..this is a link straight from the Planned Parenthood in New York:
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/news-articles-press/politics-policy-issues/abortion-access/induced-abortion-6137.htm
I am also very interested to see if you can prove what you said about them.
Look up the specific website of a PP you want to know about by going to ppfa.org and entering your zip code, and then click on the link for services offered. If they list counseling – that means they have a social worker on staff (they cant offer counseling if they dont). Counseling is available at a one-on-one or group basis – ie, a support group.
For example, on the PPNY website, the services available are the following:
Services
Abnormal Pap Follow-up
Abortion Services – Medical
Abortion Services – Surgical
Adoption Counseling and Placement
Annual Exam
Birth Control: Pills, Condoms, Depo-Provera, etc.
Breast Exam
Counseling – Abortion
Counseling – Birth Control
Counseling – Pregnancy Options
Counseling – STD
Depo-Provera
Emergency Contraception (EC)
High Blood Pressure Screening
HIV/AIDS Testing and Counseling
Immunizations
IUD
Male Health Services
NuvaRing
Patch (Ortho-Evra)
Pregnancy Testing and Counseling
Prenatal Care
Sexually Transmitted Infection Testing & Treatment
Sonogram
Vaginal Infection Testing & Treatment
Cancer Screening (Pap Test)
Colposcopy
Cryotherapy
Diabetes Screening
Hepatitis A & B Vaccine
Paragard
Post-Abortion Exam
Ultrasound
Urinary Tract Infection Diagnosis and Treatment
I don’t see any that say post-abortion counseling… I’m pretty sure that this one: “counseling-abortion) referring to abortion counseling before getting the abortion. (as in talking to the woman about the procedure, what to expect, etc).
Why don’t you call your local Planned Parenthood and ask them specifically if they offer post-abortive counseling services?
Yep,Bethany.I’ll bet you’re correct! It’s not post. It’s pre.If PP did offer post abortive counseling,then they might have to step up to the plate and acknowledge that they really are killing babies.Why would anyone grieve over a lump of tissue?I never cried after the dentist did a tooth extraction.
Ladies – I interned there for 6 months directly under the social worker. Im pretty sure I would know more than you what they mean by abortion counseling. Its offered both before AND after the procedure, as you would clearly see on the website link I posted earlier.
What is the counseling for?
Is it specifically for helping women heal from the emotional pain after abortion?
And if so, how does that check with what Planned Parenthood states, that 98 percent of women do not have any emotional problems after having abortions, but relief?
I still am having a problem believing that it is a counseling service for post abortive women because of the above facts about Planned Parenthood.
Amanda, you specifically said PP offers “support groups for women who’ve had abortions.” That was not in the list of services you cut and pasted.
You may not understand what you actually typed. Are you now trying to equate “support groups for women who’ve had abortions” with counseling after “the procedure”?
And btw, is your wording, i.e., “the procedure” – based on all your experience as a PP intern – a demonstration of the sort of counseling that is offered? Cover-up counseling?
Amanda,
Basically all I saw when I went to your link was paragraph after paragraph denying that there is any need for counseling.
If I was depressed after an abortion (or anything thing else that I did) I would be a little put out clicking onto abortion counseling only to be told that I didn’t need it.
If I was a drug addict and went for treatment and they told me that all of their “studies” show that there is no proof that drug addiction exists, I’d probably go home and smoke some crack. or worse.
Denying a problem exists doesn’t eliminate the problem. It only eliminates the need to address the problem.
If even one women suffers from depression directly connected to having had an abortion, then the people who performed that abortion are responsible for her “follow up care”, even if and especially if her care includes psychiatric help.
mk
MK,I’m laughing hysterically at your post.[The crack part]Can’t help it.Good point though.
On a serious note,I couldn’t agree more.What if PAS isn’t really an official diagnosis?It had to be given a name by someone.Never heard of social anxiety disorder before either,but someone had to give it a name.Why can’t women grieve after an abortion? Is that wrong? Why can’t we give it a name? Most women are duped into into thinking that an abortion is not the termination of a human being. Once the procedure is done,that’s it! She is left alone to deal with her emotions.How can we be so quick to say “Ah,she’ll be alright.” I was reading about a woman that had an abortion 19 years ago.She is still grieving,but she said that it took several years to come to terms with what she had done.Should she not receive help?I have also read that PAS is in the same category with PTSD. I resent people saying that it would have happened anyway because it may not have.
I’ll bet if you went back to PP and other abortion clinics,the amount of women suffering would be staggering.The problem is,nobody in the industry ever bothered to check.Get em in,line em up,do the do,move em out….BYE!
I find the hypocrisy of the pro-abort crowd to be staggering. In one breath, they crow about fetuses being merely lumps of insignificant tissue (like a tumor) and not babies. However, when pro-lifers suggest that “mothers” who decide to abort should see the fetus before or after the procedure, pro-aborts wail about the cruelty of it.
Perhaps the pro-abort crowd could suggest that showing someone a cancerous tumor that was removed from their body is also cruel and unusual punishment.
HYPOCRISY!
It reminds me of those pro-abort politicians who say that their goal is to make abortion safe, legal, and rare. I ask them: if there’s nothing inherently wrong with abortion, why make it a goal to reduce the frequency of it?
I would love for one of the pro-aborts on this blog to tell me (with 100% certainty) when human life begins and is worthy of the most basic human rights.
Right on Jeremy! That’s their favorite thing to say.Safe,legal,and rare.Safe..not especially…legal….unfortunately…rare…Hell no.3500 abortions a day.Do you really think that 3500 abortions a day are performed for rape,incest,of to save the life of the mother?
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