Kill Bill II?
The March 30 question of the day on Planned Parenthood’s TeenWire website was this:
I had an abortion a little over a month ago and now I’m pregnant again. What are the risks of having a second abortion?
PP’s answer?
The risks for the second abortion are generally the same as for the first, if they are both performed at the same stage of pregnancy. There is no evidence that having more than one abortion causes any health problems.
Really? Where to begin….
First, here we see an example that comprehensive sex ed fails. In fact, according to a November 2006 Guttmacher (PP’s research arm) study, 1/2 of abortions are repeats.
Not that PP minds, but there is no excuse. Without a doubt the “family planning” industry has had face time with the mother before and after her first abortion to teach and equip her for supposed safe sex.
But, in fact, according to the Guttmacher report, “statistical models demonstrated that repeat abortions would occur even among populations with high levels of contraceptive use, due to the fact that pregnancies occur even when contraceptives are used.”
Why doesn’t MSM shout this out? Because MSM is liberal, and the goal of liberals is to live a hedonistic life without consequences.
Second, repeat abortions don’t cause health problems? Perhaps if one’s definition of “health problem” is solely nuclear attack. Otherwise health problems can be catastrophic, particularly if one ever wants a pregnancy to end with a live birth. In that case, repeat abortions can cause ectopic pregnancy, premature delivery, low birth weight, miscarriage, and infertility.
Repeat abortions would also not cause health problems if one has had a lobotomy. Otherwise, according to a study in Family Planning Perspectives, now published by Guttmacher, repeat abortions are associated with lowered self esteem, a conscious or unconscious desire for a replacement pregnancy, and increased sexual activity post-abortion.
That study also found – duh – repeat abortions may be associated with continued pressures to abort, like threats of abandonment by the new male partner. Note the word “new.” That’s because most relationships end after abortion.
I remember caring for a teenage girl who suffered a miscarriage. Imagine my surprise to find out she had had an abortion six weeks earlier. I have seen this more often than I can count. Teenage girls pregnant again and again. Also, don’t assume these pregnancies are always accidents. They’re not. Working with these girls and young women for years has taught me that its not a simple matter of handing out birth control pills or sex-ed. Believe me, I wish these problem could be solved that simply. It grates me to see prominent women and Hollywood celebrities gushing on the joys of single motherhood and our society fawning over them. What kind of message does this send? These girls and young women are very impressionable and do not see the vast difference between their circumstances and those of a Hollywood celebrity.
I haven’t met one of these girls yet who planned to go on welfare. Why, their weekend job at McDonald’s will support them just fine! You are all too often dealing with a little girl’s fantasy world where so many of these teenage girls are concerned.
I encountered one very bright 18y/o who was devastated over a negative pregnancy test. She worked at Hardee’s and had plans for college. I suggested that she at least finish college before she even thinks of having a baby, that she had a difficult enought road ahead of her as it was, and now was the time to enjoy her youth and freedom. It was obvious she was giving little thought to the work and financial support a baby would require. I never knew if she followed my advise, but I’m not willing to bet my mortgage she did.
I’ve also noticed this pattern.An abortion here,a miscarriage there.SOMG posted yesterday that complications, after an abortion,are only a pro-life myth.I don’t believe that at all,because a woman I know had to have a hysterectomy after 7 first trimester abortions.I’ve lost a lot of respect for Hollywood.These TV shows today suck! Most of these actresses today have no talent.It’s like they will put anything on.It’s all sex,sex,and more sex.
Some celebs.signed the Ms.Magazine petition. Remember? WE HAD ABORTIONS. What were they hoping to accomplish? Wouldn’t you want to keep that to yourself? Why broadcast?
momof3,
Have you noticed they recycle the same signatures time and again?
We had an incident in our city here several years ago. A teenage girl had a baby and thought she could return to school, baby and all!
The school sent her and the baby home, stating that she had to either arrange her own child care or have the school send a tutor to her home. She still went back to school with the baby and again they sent her home. She and her mother whined to the local paper about how she was being so mistreated. She wanted to go back to her school and friends and didn’t want a tutor. So there. Her mother couldn’t understand why the high school didn’t provide child care for students.
Welcome to reality! Babies are not toys, but a 24/7 responsibility, no one owes you childcare, and you can’t just take a baby anywhere you darn well please. Most important, you no longer have the freedom you once enjoyed.
The girl’s mother was quite sickly and unable to care for the child. Excuse me madame, but did you ever discuss this with your daughter? The reporter asked the girl and her mother if adoption was ever discussed. Oh sure, but she just wanted to keep the baby. I wasn’t convinced this pregnancy was any accident either.
Sadly this young woman reflected the mindset of so many of these young girls. She wound up dropping out of school, going on welfare, and working some dead end job. Not exactly what she fantasized having a baby can be about. What is really tragic is that the child will likely grow up to repeat the same pattern of behavior. I have seen so many girls and young women with such potential and opportunity end up the same way. For Hollywood celebrities single motherhood might be glamorous, for your average teenage girl, its a ticket to welfare dependency, dead end jobs, and poverty.
Mary,all I can say is I feel that our society/country is in big trouble.2 young people I know have been diagnosed HIV+.I’m seeing younger men and women in the LTC facilities with terminal illnesses.It can be so frustrating.
I’m a pro-choice voice here. One of those “I wouldn’t have one except to save my life but I think it should be legal” types.
Mary – are you pro-life or pro-choice? I can’t tell. I get that you are using that story to illustrate that teen pregnancy is not the fairytale some kids think. However, that story illustrates actually why most teens in her position would get an abortion — no childcare, no ability to continue school, etc. Also, the stigma of teen pregnancy is pretty apparent. So the pro-lifers on here should be happy to hear this story of this young woman having her baby in the face of such obvious obstacles. How can we lament her for choosing to have her baby? “she’ll be going on welfare and working some dead-end job.” That sounds pretty unmerciful and judgmental to me. I’d say that’s a problem with society and a lack of support services for pregnant women and working women. Also perhaps a problem with society not giving women the message early on that they can pursue other purposes besides having babies. Not that there isn’t personal responsibility, but if it’s happening in such wide numbers, I think it is important to examine the social climate creating this problem. And when it comes to personal responsibility, most pro-lifers say “If you did the deed, you should accept the consequences” aka have the baby. And now we’re criticizing someone who did just that because she’s not going anywhere. So see I can’t tell if you are pro life or pro choice.
Oh, momof3, the purpose of the Ms Campaign was to make abortion not so taboo anymore, to normalize it at as a moral choice. And to break the stereotype of the kind of woman who has an abortion.
I’m sure you don’t agree with the first part, but I bet you can agree that there are a lot of myths and stereotypes about who gets an abortion, i.e. that it’s only those “other” women, the women who ___ fill in the blank with your choice of category. When really it’s so common that it crosses all kinds of groups.
I thought the whole thing was tacky and lame.Actress Kathy Najimy signed the petition.This woman could have had a nanny raise her child for crying out loud.To me it screamed “I am totally selfish!” “I value my stupid acting career over the life of my child.” What was up with the comment from Gloria Steinem?? She said “I’ve never stopped being grateful that I was able to have an abortion in my early 20’s” “It was the first time I took responsibility for my own life.”Doesn’t she realize how asinine this sounds? Gloria,why didn’t you take responsibility before you took a roll in the hay with a guy that cared nothing about you?
why do you think the guy she “took a roll in the hay” with cared nothing about her? Do you know something about that relationship we don’t know?
I think many women are grateful they could have a safe and legal abortion when they were young.
I agree with Ashlee that taking the Taboo out of abortion is a good thing, and it helps with the myths and stereotypes.
As the risk of offending Momof3 (and going a bit off topic), we should probably do the same thing with marijuana. If most people knew how many good, decent, hardworking americans smoked pot now and then we could get over thos myths and stereotypes too.
Jill, you wrote: “… repeat abortions can cause ectopic pregnancy, premature delivery, low birth weight, miscarriage, and infertility.”
For evidence, you linked to a site (http://health.ivillage.com/gyno/gynobc/0,,sd,00.html) which lists possible complications from repeat abortions. However, the site does not give any NUMBERS–no indication of how LIKELY any of these complications is to occur. In other words, no EVIDENCE.
And you wonder why no one takes you seriously as a source for abortion-related information?
You also wrote: “most relationships end after abortion. ”
Where did you get this information? Any evidence? Or is this just another “fact” you made up?
Gary,I’m really not the slightest bit interested in talking about your pot habit.Get some help already….would ya??
Meanwhile, “mom of 3” continues to draw conclusions from a study group consisting of one woman. Hee hee!
SOMG,I read the artcle that Jill posted.You know there are other studies besides Jills!!They are ALL OVER the internet!I came upon Jill’s site while I was on another pro-life site.Try the Pro Life Action League.Oh never mind! You’ll probably tell me that the former abortionists are just paid actors.
“mom of 3”, the mission of the Pro-Life Action League is to outlaw abortion and to frighten women out of having abortions, not to post accurate medical information.
It is a mistake to take anything they write about abortion seriously.
It still made me a believer out of me,and I doubt that it is being used as a scare tactic.What would a former abortionist have to gain by talking about this?Perhaps they do get paid for speaking,but you can’t convince me that it’s for money.
“mom of 3”, the mission of the Pro-Life Action League is to outlaw abortion and to frighten women out of having abortions
…and one of SOMG’s missions is to scare women pregnant with disabled children into having abortions before they are born.
“cycstic fibrosis”
(sp)
SOMG,I can tell you [here I go again] of the women I know who have had abortions,one woman is still with the guy.1 out of 16.The rest are kaput!!
Oh hi Bethany.Nice to see you today.Hope you are well! I couldn’t have said that better myself!
Most relationships end. Most relationships where there’s been an abortion end. I don’t see that we can make abortion the cause of the break-ups. How many relationships would be saved if these women were not allowed to get legal abortions? Not too many I’d venture.
SOMG,you have to sell abortions.I know that you’re not happy about the exposure.It’s bad for your business.
Hal,if you are with a woman that feels as you do,that life can be discarded at your pleasure,then I’d say yes your relationship can survive.I’d also say that you deserve each other.
Oh hi Bethany.Nice to see you today.Hope you are well! I couldn’t have said that better myself!
I’m doing great, Momof3! :) Hey, if you wouldn’t mind, do you think you could stop by my blog and send me a comment or an email so that I can talk to you privately sometime? :) Thanks! :)
Yes,Bethany.I’d love to.How do I get to your blog from here?
Click on my name ;)
Thanks Bethany.Got it!You will hear from me a little bit later today.
Thanks! :)
Ashlee,
I am pro-life and have worked extensively with these young women. You very well express my point. Pregnancy and motherhood is not the fairy tale so many of these girls and young women think it is. Try to convince them of that before they become pregnant or during their pregnancies. Tragically they don’t discover this until the baby has arrived, their lives have changed, and their fantasy world comes to an abrupt halt, as did that of the young woman I discussed. The young woman I mentioned is so typical of what I see all the time. Contraception and abortion will not stop teens who want to have babies from having them. That’s the problem, they WANT to have them. I hope you read my first post as well so as I do not want to be repetitious.
You’re exactly right Ashlee, these girls and young women need to get the message that they can pursue other goals than having babies. We need to examine the social climate. The trouble is they are given the message that illegitimacy is glamorous and easy. There is no stigma of any kind. Nothing grates me like this gushing over celebrities giving birth out of wedlock. What message is being sent to very impressionable young women? What about our sex saturated media? Isn’t it ironic there is more concern over a celebrity smoking a cigarette because of the message this sends, but not over their glamorizing their out of wedlock pregnancies? By the way, pro-choice journalist Ellen Goodman, of whom I am no fan, wrote an article many years ago where she expressed concern over how illegitimacy is glamorized and how this influences teenage girls and young women. Her article was excellent though I’m afraid few heeded her.
Going on welfare and working some dead end job being harsh and judgemental? Not at all Ashlee, I’m telling you what I see happen time and again and it makes me physically sick. I’ve seen too many futures and opportunities thrown down the toilet.
As for this young woman I do not criticize her, instead my heart goes out to her. Her life is difficult, I hope she’ll finish school, and make a decent life for herself and her daughter. Hopefully her daughter will not repeat the same pattern.
If I’m angry and critical of anything Ashlee, its the social climate you mention and the simple minded mentality that simply handing these girls contraception and abortion will solve this problem. I have seen, and continue to see first hand that it won’t.
An interesting account Ashlee that proves a point you and I seem to agree on. A black professional woman was so distressed over the high birth rate of black teenagers in her city that she formed an organization of black professional women to act as mentors. Her group was highly successful in preventing pregnancies in the young women they mentored, most of whom finished high school and went on to college and successful careers, escaping the poverty and welfare dependency of so many of their peers.
Also, I agree with your point on providing services to pregnant women in need and have been involved personally in doing so.
I read that story bout the school telling the girl to provide her own child care, etc, and it is sad. A school the town over has a day care provided for the children of students attending highschool, at least that way they are able to graduate and get their diploma so that they have a shot at better jobs than just working at McDonald’s. Dont know where the money came from that allowed the school to do it, but I think its admirable, at least it helps provide the mother with the possibility of providing the child a better life.
Dan,
Please note that the school offered to send a tutor to her home and she refused. Its not like there was no help being offered to her. She had to face the realization that her life was forever changed, she couldn’t just go back to being a carefree high school girl as she obviously wanted to do. It is very sad.
We have a couple schools in my city that also offer child care. In fact, our city has many social services for these young mothers. We can only hope it enables them to better their lives.
Dr. Fritz Hubener was a rarity in Austrian 19th-century medicine. Against the dictates of the powerful Austrian Catholic Church, he advocated the right of women to terminate dangerous pregnancies, particularly when they were trapped in relationships with powerful, abusive men. One day, a woman named Klara came to him for medical advice. She was pregnant and frightened. Not the least of her fears was the fear of hell that had been put into her by a parish priest. She was a timid girl and not sure she was ready to be a mother. Dr. Hubener was, at present, the only one who knew she was pregnant besides her. He urged her to terminate the pregnancy, but in the end, out of her fear of hell, Klara declined. Eight months later, her son, Adolf Hitler, was born.
I did see the part about the tutor, and I certainly think its better than nothing, and if the girl had to choose I would certainly hope she would choose to have the tutor come to her home, or at least have found a day care that the family could afford.
Samantha –
http://www.crisismagazine.com/march2005/feature2.htm
You forgot to include the sentence that was before that paragragh…
“For this reason, few conservatives would fall for something like this imaginary editorial (written, say, in response to the claims made a couple of years ago that a drop in crime rates could be correlated to the rise of abortion):”
Valerie I didnt copy from that website; I copied from the “did you know?” misc. facts sidebar on the menu at the restaurant where I work. After I saw this post by you I asked my boss where she got the info, and she said it came in an email. Its strange that it was copied so closely. Ill see what else I can find.
The picture of the atomic explosion in relation to the topic of this article reminds me of a famous quote from Mother Teresa, “the fruit of abortion is nuclear war.”
Yes, indeed.
mom and bethany,
…and one of SOMG’s missions is to scare women pregnant with disabled children into having abortions before they are born.
It is a mistake to take anything he writes about abortion seriously.
mk
Right MK,What was I thinking??I’ve noticed that once you crank up the heat on him,he usually leaves the kitchen!
Dan,
That’s why if I was annoyed with anyone, it was the girl’s mother. Her daughter was offered home tutoring but this just wasn’t good enough. Perhaps she should have stressed to her daughter that this was the most realistic and best option available until other arrangements could be made instead of going to the newspaper. Also, where was the father of this child? Didn’t he have any responsibility of any kind?
Samantha T,
Do you also know the circumstances surrounding the births of Josef Stalin and Mao Tse-tung? These mass murderers made Hitler look tame by comparison.
Also what were the circumstances surrounding the births of Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King, Jr. or Mother Teresa? What if they had been aborted?
Exactly how do we prophesize what kind of person any unborn child will become?
Mary I would not venture to attempt to guess the lifelong destiny of an unborn child. I found the story to be interesting and of relevance to the topic at hand.
MK the link last night was just as fascinating as the rest. Padre Pio is still my favorite, tho.
Samantha,
Mine too.
Next,
Medjugorge
mk
Hal, 3:33p, said: “How many relationships would be saved if these women were not allowed to get legal abortions? Not too many I’d venture.”
If abortion were made illegal again, it stands to reason more chaste values would return. People would become more thoughtful beforet engaging in illicit sex. So I would conclude that many more relationships would properly flourish.
The girl either may not have known who the father was, or he cut and run. Sadly it still happens often enough that the father gets off scott free.
Jill,
I don’t agree that “more chaste values” would return if abortion were illegal. I don’t see any evidence of that. You might argue that people would be more careful not to get pregnant, but there are lots of ways to do that without being “more chaste.” Better birth control for one. I heard of one study showing the increase in oral and anal sex among religious high school girls who didn’t want to get pregnant. Not altoghether a good thing, and certainly not “more chaste.”
Plus, with illegal abortions still being an option, some would still see abortion as a way out if the pregancy did occur. Plus, I’m guessing abortion pills will get more effective and widespread over the next 10 years.
If abortion were illegal, it would add more stress to pregnant women, not less. That’s not a receipe for better relationships.
There are probably ways society can reduce “illicit sex,” but outlawing abortion isn’t one of them in my view. [by the way, I don’t believe in the concept of illicit sex–providing consenting adults are the participants]
Bethany, you wrote: “…and one of SOMG’s missions is to scare women pregnant with disabled children into having abortions before they are born.
“cycstic fibrosis””
The difference is that I don’t have to lie in order to do that. Scaring women out of having cystic-fibrosis babies, and telling them the correct medical facts, are completely consistant goals.
On the contrary, the Pro-Life Action League’s goal is to outlaw abortion, and to frighten women out of having abortions, BY MISREPRESENTING THE DANGERS OF ABORTION.
It’s a big difference.
Jill, you wrote: “If abortion were made illegal again, it stands to reason more chaste values would return. People would become more thoughtful beforet engaging in illicit sex. So I would conclude that many more relationships would properly flourish.”
Do you think the values of temperance flourished during alcohol-prohibition in the USA?
You have only to look at patterns of sexuality in countries where abortion is illegal to disprove your hypothesis.
According to Guttmacher, 20 million of the 46 million abortions performed annually worldwide occur in countries with highly restrictive abortion laws.
“If abortion were made illegal again, it stands to reason more chaste values would return. People would become more thoughtful beforet engaging in illicit sex. So I would conclude that many more relationships would properly flourish.”
I don’t think this is going to happen. It didn’t work with any other prohibition act, and it’s not going to work with abortion. You’d just get underground clinics popping up everywhere.
I think that fixing up our school’s sex education (which, to be frank, really sucks right now) would do a lot more good than just illigalizing abortion entirely.
SOMG is interested in learning the complications of abortion.
From Texas Health & Human Services (legal document, tested in the courts):
Emotional Side of an Abortion
You should know that women experience different emotions after an abortion. Some women may feel guilty, sad, or empty, while others may feel relief that the procedure is over. Some women have reported serious psychological effects after their abortion, including depression, grief, anxiety, lowered self-esteem, regret, suicidal thoughts and behavior, sexual dysfunction, avoidance of emotional attachment, flashbacks, and substance abuse. These emotions may appear immediately after an abortion, or gradually over a longer period of time. These feelings may recur or be felt stronger at the time of another abortion, or a normal birth, or on the anniversary of the abortion.
Counseling or support before and after your abortion is very important. If family help and support are not available to you, it may be harder for you to deal with the feelings that appear after an abortion. Talking with a professional counselor before having an abortion can help a woman better understand her decision and the feelings she may experience after the procedure. If counseling is not available to the woman, these feelings may be more difficult to handle. Many pregnancy-resource centers offer pre- and post-abortion counseling services; these centers are listed in the resource directory.
Future Childbearing and Infertility
The risks are fewer when an abortion is done in the early weeks of pregnancy. The further along you are in your pregnancy, the greater the chance of serious complications and the greater the risk of dying from the abortion procedure. Some complications associated with an abortion, such as infection or a cut or torn cervix, may make it difficult or impossible to become pregnant in the future or to carry a pregnancy to term.
Some large studies have reported a doubling of the risk of premature birth in later pregnancy if a woman has had two induced abortions. The same studies report an 800 percent increase in the risk of extremely early premature births (less than 28 weeks) for a woman who has experienced four or more induced abortions. Very premature babies, who have the highest risk of death, also have the highest risk for lasting disabilities, such as mental retardation, cerebral palsy, lung and gastrointestinal problems, and vision and hearing loss.
Breast Cancer
Your chances of getting breast cancer are affected by your pregnancy history. If you have carried a pregnancy to term as a young woman, you may be less likely to get breast cancer in the future. However, you do not get the same protective effect if your pregnancy is ended by an abortion. The risk may be higher if your first pregnancy is aborted.
While there are studies that have found an increased risk of developing breast cancer after an induced abortion, some studies have found no overall risk. There is agreement that this issue needs further study. If you have a family history of breast cancer or clinical findings of breast disease, you should seek medical advice from your physician before deciding whether to remain pregnant or have an abortion. It is always important to tell your doctor about your complete pregnancy history.
SOMG, from Michigan Dept. of Community Health (legal document, tested in the courts):
Risks Associated With Medical Abortion
There are some risks and complications that can occur with this abortion procedure. Not all risks may pertain to all patients. This procedure should be discussed with your doctor for information on the risks that apply to you.
As noted earlier, vaginal bleeding and uterine cramping will occur in almost all patients. In some cases, bleeding can be very heavy. You should expect to experience bleeding or spotting for an average of nine to 16 days. Some women experience bleeding for 30 days or more. In some cases, excessive bleeding may require blood transfusions, treatment with medication, surgery, and/or saline transfusions. Commonly reported side effects included nausea, vomiting and diarrhea.
Death related to abortion occurs in less than one of every 100,000 abortions. It is extremely important to get medical care if you are experiencing more than the usual side effects and in the event of an emergency. Talk to your doctor about complications and be sure to get the phone number of your doctor in case you have questions, have concerns, or need emergency care.
While rare, some women may experience depression, feelings of guilt, anger, sleep disturbance, or loss of interest in work or sex, as a result of an abortion. If these symptoms occur and are intense or persistent, professional help is recommended.
Risks associated with Medication-Induced Abortion
Following is a list of some of the risks which in the past have been associated with this type of abortion procedure. Not all of these risks may pertain to any one patient. This procedure should be discussed with your physician for information regarding risks which may apply to you.
Complications may include infection, heavy bleeding, and perforation of the uterus (a hole or tear in the wall of the womb).
The risks of uterine perforation and laceration are slightly greater at this stage of pregnancy than they are in an abortion done earlier due to the larger fetus and thinner uterine walls.
Other complications could include cervical incompetence (a condition in which the cervix opens up too early, increasing the risk of a miscarriage in future pregnancies) and injury to the cervix. Repeated abortions could increase the possibility of premature delivery or a low birth weight infant in future pregnancies.
Risks Associated With Dilation and Evacuation
Following is a list of some of the risks which in the past have been associated with this type of abortion procedure. Not all of these risks may pertain to any one patient. This procedure should be discussed with your physician for information regarding risks which may apply to you.
Complications may include infection, heavy bleeding, and perforation of the uterus (a hole or tear in the wall of the womb). The risks of uterine perforation and laceration are slightly greater at this stage of pregnancy than they are in an abortion done earlier due to the larger fetus and thinner uterine walls.
Other complications could include cervical incompetence (a condition in which the cervix opens up too early, increasing the risk of a miscarriage in future pregnancies) and injury to the cervix.
Repeated abortions could increase the possibility of premature delivery or a low birth weight infant in future pregnancies.
While rare, some women may experience depression, feelings of guilt, anger, sleep disturbance, or loss of interest in work or sex, as a result of an abortion. If these symptoms occur and are intense or persistent, professional help is recommended.
Maternal death occurs in less than one of every 100,000 abortions.
“The medical, emotional, and psychological consequences of an abortion are serious and can be lasting….” ~ H.L. v. Matheson, 1981
The decision to abort “is an important, and often a stressful one, and it is desirable and imperative that it be made with full knowledge of its nature and consequences.” ~ Planned Parenthood v. Danforth, 1976
I was reading another post elsewhere today.This woman had an abortion 19 years ago.She didn’t feel immediate sorrow.It can take years.I’ve heard this on other posts time and time again.Once you abort,you can’t ever go back. That’s why they say many women do the ‘replacement pregnancy’ deal. It’s the truth.My friend’s niece had an abortion about 2 years ago.She cried and cried and cried!She was pregnant again within an 8 month period,after aborting. When my friend asked her why she was pregnant again so soon ,she replied “Because I made a huge mistake.”
Ah yes Jill,more proof!SOMG-your case is weakening.
SOMG, don’t be silly. Give me quotes and stats from reputable organizations, not a pro-abortion organization.
Let me give you an example, from the NYTimes”>http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/31/world/americas/31mexico.html?pagewanted=print”>NYTimes, March 31:
“Government officials estimate at least 110,000 women a year seek illegal abortions in Mexico, and many abortion rights groups say the number is much higher. At least 88 women died in 2006 from botched abortions, the Health Ministry says, though it is far from clear that all cases were reported.”
The 2006 population of Mexico was 107,449,525, according to the CIA.
Jill, I have a question.
What, specifically, is a “live birth abortion”? It came up in your bio and needless to say, I am very confused since I have never heard of such a thing.
ID&X, yes. Is that what you’re referring to?
From the State of South Dakota (legal document, tested in the courts):
INDUCED ABORTION METHODS AND RISKS
Descriptions of abortion methods commonly used for each trimester of pregnancy are provided below. A list of references for the information is also included. The methods are listed in alphabetical order. Any of the below mentioned risks or complications can be lessened with good medical care.
Contents
First Trimester Abortion Methods (0-14 weeks of pregnancy)
Second Trimester Abortion Methods (14-26 weeks of pregnancy)
Third Trimester Abortion Methods (26-40 weeks of pregnancy)
Glossary
Explanations of Risks
Expectations after Surgery
Fetal Pain
Sources
First Trimester Abortion Methods (0
Jill, death rate for abortion is 1 in 100,000 you stated, correct?
In 2000, the MMR for pregnancy was 14 in 100,000
seems abortion is still safer
http://www.who.int/whr/2005/annex/indicators_country_p-z.pdf
Stephanie, 6:24p, asked what a live birth abortion is.
It’s also known as induced labor abortion or mid-trimester labor induction.
It is committed usually after 18 weeks.
The abortionist inserts medication into the uterus up to cervix – usually misoprostol, aka cytotec – every 4-12 hours as needed. This irritates the cervix and causes it to open prematurely. I’ve seen the process take as long as 5 days, but the medication can get the job done as quickly as one dose.
The goal is to deliver a preterm baby before s/he is viable. The baby most often dies before or during birth. From what I observed somewhere around 1/4 of the babies survived anywhere from a few minutes to as long as an 8-hour shift. My hospital would only admit to “5-10%” surviving their abortions.
Sometimes the abortionist will kill the baby beforehand by visualizing the baby’s heart on ultrasound and injecting medication through the mother’s abdomen into the baby’s heart to cause instant cardiac arrest.
Was that giant copy/paste post directed at me? Because if it was, I still don’t know what a “live birth abortion” is. =/
SOMG, even your pals at Planned Parenthood admit risks, altho they minimize them, of course:
Medication Abortion
Possible risks include
incomplete abortion
Oh. Do you mean induced labor and hysterotomy? I tried to look up induced labor abortion and mid-trimester labor induction but didn’t find any information on it. Induced labor and hysterotomy was the closest thing I found, which is also performed late in the second trimester.
Stephanie, that sounds like the right terminology. What is the definition?
Just a quick thing. I don’t think SOMG was denying that there are possible risks to abortion. It is a medical procedure after all, and all medical procedures have risks to them.
I think SOMG was saying that the risks are not as severe as they are being represented here. It COULD happen, but most likely it won’t. That’s why they say “in extremely rare cases”.
Jill, your documents from Texas and Michigan list possible complications but provide no NUMBERS, and therefore prove nothing.
The nearest thing I see to an actual number is this sentence: “Some large studies have reported a doubling of the risk of premature birth in later pregnancy if a woman has had two induced abortions. The same studies report an 800 percent increase in the risk of extremely early premature births (less than 28 weeks) for a woman who has experienced four or more induced abortions.”
A footnote would be nice here. What “large studies”? How large? Done by whom?
Also, “doubling” of the risk and “800 percent increase” are deceptive terms because we are talking about very small numbers. An increase from very very very very rare to only very very very rare can be a doubling of risk or an 800 percent increase, but still not worth worrying about.
But you already know this, Jill. Your nursing training included some basic statistics and epidemiology, right? (If not, then you need to go back to school.)
nduced Labor and Hysterotomy
Source: Human Sexuality by Simon LeVay and Sharon M. Valente
Late in the second trimester, the D and E procedure becomes more risky, and other surgical techniques may be used. In one method, the provider simply induces premature labor. This may be done by injecting a strong salt solution into the amniotic sac (saline-induced abortion). Alternatively, and more commonly, labor is induced by administration of a prostaglandin. The drug is either inujected into the amniotic sac or administered by means of a vaginal suppository (in which case, this procedure shoule be considered a meical rather than a surgical abortion). Contractions usually begin within an hour or so, and the fetus is expelled withint 48 hours.
If the woman’s health is such that labor seems risky, the fetus may be removed by means of a surgical incision in the abdomen and the uterus (hysterotomy). This procedure is essentially equivalent to a cesarean section, except that the fetus is smaller and nonviable. Both induced labor and hysterotomy are done infrequently – each of them accounds for fewer than 1% of all abortions in the US.
Is pregnancy deadlier than abortion?
No.
Even Guttmacher had to report an a comprehensive study in Finland that reported this as untrue, although Guttmacher has now removed the study from its site. However, due to the wonders of Google caching, it is still available ( here. The study is:
1. Gissler M et al., Pregnancy-associated mortality after birth, spontaneous abortion, or induced abortion in Finland, 1987
What if we allowed women to terminate their pregnancies, by doing only these live birth abortions and then did everything medically possible to save the babies life?
Then charged the mother for the procedures used to save them?
That might limit abortion…I mean they get what they want. No parasite. We get what we want. The acknowledgment that these are “human persons”.
They will already be born so that there will be no argument over whether or not they have the same rights that we do…
unless of course there is serious “Terri Schiavo” brain damage…then we could just starve them to death.
mk
Jill: Same with the South Dakota document, too. No numbers. No frequencies. Hence, no proof of anything.
Especially, the document provides no comparison to the risks associated with full-term pregnancy and childbirth.
Stephanie’s post (“I think SOMG was saying that the risks are not as severe as they are being represented here. It COULD happen, but most likely it won’t. That’s why they say “in extremely rare cases”.”) shows that she is able to read. Good to have someone like you here, Stephanie.
Jill, my statistic was for the U.S., not Finland, that was organized by what I believe is a world wide organization. Perhaps in 2000 there was a fluke for one reason or another, but that year it was higher than deaths due to abortion.
Stephanie, this part of your definition applies to induced labor abortion:
“Alternatively, and more commonly, labor is induced by administration of a prostaglandin. The drug is either inujected into the amniotic sac or administered by means of a vaginal suppository (in which case, this procedure shoule be considered a meical rather than a surgical abortion). Contractions usually begin within an hour or so, and the fetus is expelled withint 48 hours.”
Re: the 48 hours, as I said, I’ve seen it take as long as 5 days.
Jill,you’ve provided more than enough.SOMG would complain if his icecream was cold.He doesn’t want to acknowledge the truth.If he refuses to believe a thing you say,then why is he here?See,as soon as you post something factual it’s “Oh, you must be writing that yourself”,pulled it out of a hat somewhere.I’ve told him about a few things that I know to be true and his reply is always “Can’t be.” “You made that up.”
No, Jill posted documents, the problem for SOMG is that no numbers were provided, which can certainly be a valid concern in various cases. You wouldnt take your prescription unless you know how many mg of medication there were in the pill would you?
Dan, the Finnish study is unimpeachable. It comes from STAKES, the statistical analysis unit of Finland’s National Research and Development Center for Welfare and Health. STAKES researchers pulled the death certificate records for all women of reproductive age (15-49) who died and evaluated every one for pregnancy-related events 12 months before they died. Since Finland has socialized medical care, these records are very accurate and complete.
He’s an internet troll. He just says things to purposely work people up. He is here for his own sick pleasure, not for anything else. I don’t know why I ever bother replying to him.
Yes, and as I said, thats for Finland, not the U.S, unless Im missing something, which I very well could be.
Is this a world wide study or was it just finland? I believe thats the key piece Im missing
Jill, you quoted the Finnish Gissler study: “Women’s risk of death from any cause was also reduced after a birth (0.5), but it was elevated after an induced abortion (1.5) and was essentially unchanged after a spontaneous abortion or ectopic pregnancy.””
Note the phrase “from any cause”. Deaths from, for instance, car accidents, were included in this study. Hee hee!
The study is also marred by a failure to adequately address confounders. (If you don’t know what a confounder is, read a basic statistics/epidemiology text and come back when you do know.)
I’m not on PP’s board of directors or anything like that, but I would guess that these methodological flaws have more to do with PP’s decision not to reference the study than the results do.
SOMG, of all the statisticians in all the world – even Guttmacher – you’re the only one who finds it problematic. Imagine that!
As for stats, the consequences of abortion are profound. All the studies – by nonbiased sources – have been compiled into a book you can get here.
Of course, you and I both know you’re really not interested in stats.
But I’ve given you as much information as legislators and courts have determined pre-aborting mothers should receive, which is far more than your pals would like, since they fight Woman’s Right to Know laws whereever they pop up. And that’s enough for me.
Jill,
I’m not on PP’s board of directors
see, even they couldn’t stomach him…
mk
MK, I must admit that that comment made me laugh a bit
Ahhh, Dan.
It’s what I keep saying. For the most part, we’re all just people trying to make sense of things. We disagree yes, but at heart, none of us are monsters.
Then there’s SOMG. He is in a class all of his own.
mk
Yes,Bethany hit the nail on the head.He’s a troll!Probably sits around all day reading medical books and wishes he WAS a doctor.
“What if we allowed women to terminate their pregnancies, by doing only these live birth abortions and then did everything medically possible to save the babies life?”
If the pregnancy was past 24 weeks (which I believe is the earliest that a fetus can survive outside of the womb), then I would agree with you. The mother can sign away her rights as the parent.
However, it would be a waste of resources to do that when the fetus is unviable to begin with.
“Then charged the mother for the procedures used to save them?”
This I don’t agree with.
Jill: Thank you for the book reference. It looks like it might be fun to review this book. I’ll tell you in advance what I expect to see: The amplification of statistical noise.
Techniques in the amplification of statistical noise usually include:
Reliance on anecdotes
Small studies
Exaggeration of the importance of studies showing modest effects or modest changes in the frequency of rare occurrances. Going from very very very very rare to just very very very rare can be reported as a 1000 per-cent increase but it’s still very very very rare.
Failure to acknowledge studies which contradict the hypothesis (studies that show beneficial effects of induced abortion, for instance)
Detailed studies of individual members of small, self-selecting groups. Such as WEBA (“Women Exploited by Abortion”.) or right-to-life church groups.
Reliance on studies with acknowledged methodological flaws, such as failure to address confounders.
Studies funded by politically biased organizations
But I won’t pass judgement until I read it.
“Then charged the mother for the procedures used to save them?”
This I don’t agree with.
why?
MK, I dont wanna speak for stephanie, but part of it may be that there are people who have abortions who cant afford much care aside from the abortion. They wouldnt be able to pay for the extra procedures to save the fetus and give it a chance to live. It would likely restrict access to abortion for those in the lower class.
Actually, I presented this scenario facetiously.
But as long as you brought it up…
They wouldn’t be able to pay for the extra procedures to save the fetus and give it a chance to live.
Exactly! A reduction of abortions.
mk
and an increase of children living in poverty who resort to crime to survive.
Yeah, Dan pretty much said what I was going to say.
Jill, you wrote: “SOMG, of all the statisticians in all the world – even Guttmacher – you’re the only one who finds it problematic. Imagine that!”
I don’t follow you. Are you trying to say that no one besides me has criticised the Finnish study or the conclusions it has been cited to support? As I recall the authors acknowledged its limitations and flaws themselves.
“Of course, you and I both know you’re really not interested in stats. ”
Umm… Sorry, that’s wrong.
Dan and Stephanie –
Have you ever heard of government help? They do have that you know. If women of lower class, even with abortion legal, have a premature child, the government has assistance.
How do I know this? My son was born at 31 weeks. After insurance paid what they would pay, we were left with almost $100,000 owing. We received assistance to help. We also had infant physical therapy and ocupational therapy paid for, and the therapists even came to my house! We had his evealuations paid for. We had some of his vaccines paid for. And he still has evaluations that are being paid for.
hmm…exactly why can women not afford to either keep the baby or have an abortion if MK’s suggestion happened?
Valerie,Is your son doing alright now? I hope so.
Mom –
Yea – he has an autistic spectrum disorder, which could mean alot of things. He has a speech delay and development delay but they are optomistic that by the age of 7 he will be caught up and have very minor problems afterward.
Thanks for asking! ;-)
Valerie,that’s encouraging news.I’m sure everything will be okay!
The government does has assistance, but the sad thing is is that not everyone qualifies for it, and it is highly unlikely that the govenrment can/will be able to spot everyone who cant pay for the bill themselves. Even with government assistance, Im sure there are families that are still left to foot a bill that makes life much more difficult for a time.
and Valerie, Im glad to hear about the optomistic report for your son. I had a camper last year who was autistic, and it was difficlt having to take care of him for 12 to 36 hours (theres an overnight once and awhile). It was challenging but it was a rewarding experience, it just made things a bit more difficult, especially for someone who was then entering Junior year of high school just tying to earn a bit of money and gain experience with kids. What made it more difficult was the group of kids I had were all cliquey by this point, and werent very accepting and/or simply were plain out mean.
there was supposed to be a wish for luck and hope at the end of that post, but for some reason or another my keyboard didnt type it out. Sorry bout that
Dan –
You would be surprised how many people qualify for assistance. You just have to ASK for it and that is where most of the problems begin. Also, if your doctor doesn’t tell you about them, its kinda hard to know about them. The only reason I knew was because my sister is a Developmental Therapist for the county that she lives in so she knew where I should go. THAT is where the education needs to be. Where to to get the government to help you when needed!
Thanks for the well wishes for my son.