Memorial Day: Remember Me
Do not complete this day without offering the least you can, tears of thanks.
Better to watch in enlarged view here.
[Hat tip: readers HisMan, Mike]
May.28, 2007 6:45 am |
Uncategorized |
[Hat tip: readers HisMan, Mike]
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
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Mike
Thank you for a wonderful video! Have a great holiday everyone. God bless our troops.
There could not have been any better music selected for this video! The video is just awesome!
Mike
Well, I’m off to march(?) in the memorial day parade here. Our respect life group put up a fight and were allowed in. We’ll be passing out “lifesavers”, but were told not to carry posters or pass out literature…
Anyway, I’m killing two birds with one stone.
The video was great. Happy Memorial Day, all.
And to the troops.
We love you.
We miss you.
and
We thank you.
mk
Well, I’m off to march(?) in the memorial day parade here. Our respect life group put up a fight and were allowed in. We’ll be passing out “lifesavers”, but were told not to carry posters or pass out literature…
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hey! Great way to take a day chosen to honor American heroes and make it ALL ABOUT YOU and your little agenda.
(Gee, maybe I should try to my giant “freedom-of-choice” uterus float in the Christmas parade…)
“freedom of choice uterus float” …..How dumb!
I happen to think that men who have fought and died so that we could live, is a life issue.
And I’m pretty sure that in the next few years there won’t be any “Christmas” parades. They’ll all be “winter parades” so you can float anything that you want.
Including your overinflated ego…
MK, LOL. Didn’t she just say that you were trying to make it all about you? She always comes here and tries to make it all about her!
Your exactly right MK, good for you.
God Bless our troops and their families…
My thoughts are with the troops and their families.
My friend Eric, a Navy journalist, is getting sent out to Iraq today for a couple months. If everyone can send whatever thoughts/prayers you want, it’d be appreciated.
Erin, I’ll say a prayer for him.
Thanks for the tears…. I miss my friends in Iraq so much and want them home now….
Erin,
My thoughts and best wishes to your friend. Our vets and servicepeople throughout history and today are all to be honored and remembered on this day.
I take tremendous pride in the fact so many of my male relatives served in WW2 and that my father was one of the surviving members of the 101st Airborne at the siege of Bastogne.
Which reminds me, I need to call my uncle who is a surviver of the WW2 South Pacific campaign. A very happy Memorial Day to everyone. God Bless our veterans and servicepeople.
To all those who have served and are serving this country in the armed forces:
I remember.
I am proud of you.
To my son Phil who just completed his sixth mission to the Middles East:
God couldn’t have given me a better son. Thanks for protecting me, your mom, and your three brothers and sister, and the people of this country, even those we disagree with on issues of life.
John 15:13 “There is no greater love than to lay down one
I emphathize here. A lot of my friends from Military School are serving overseas in Iraq, and a friend of mine, Jason Gore, recently lost his life over there. My thoughts, my best wishes, and my support to the troops.
MSG John Preston Hajny, SJNMA 04
SFC Andrew Hajny, SJNMA 04
1LT Paul Hajny, SJNMA 04
They were all in my company my new boy year. Preston was my CO, Paul was my platoon leader, and Andrew was the other platoon leader. They’re a set of identical triplets, and they’re all stationed in Iraq, along with many 04 and 05 graduates.
John 15:13 “There is no greater love than to lay down one
Jill,
Hardly. HisMan is pointing out that our servicepeople, his son included, are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for our country, and that there is no greater love for their fellow man than this. Like HisMan’s pride in his son, I too am very proud of my own relatives who did the same in WW2. That certainly doesn’t mean I wished they had died. I’m very thankful they all came home.
jill:
I won’t even give your question the honor of a response as it is highly insulting and extremely viscious as it’s intent was not hidden in it’s sarcasm. You obviously have no class to be able to ask such a hateful question and that on Memorial Day. When I show my son this post he will roll his eyes at your monumental stupidity. Your desire to kill obviously is not confined to your pro-abort stance and travels from you dark heart to your mouth.
Jill Stanek:
I highly recommend you have jill banned as she is obviously trying to cause mischief by cleverly using a small j in jill and will obviously not restrain from using any opportunity to hurt. I consider her question to be no better than a pornographic display and considered as such with regards to her future postings. What a disgrace to post such a question to a father who could love a son no more than me. You make me wretch jill. I am formerly asking Jill to ban you.
HisMan,
I agree. A post like this to the parent of anyone, but particularly a serviceperson, is an absolute disgrace. It speaks volumes of the poster. To say she has no class is to give her too much credit.
HisMan, thank you to your son, to you and your wife, and the rest of your family for your love and sacrifice.
His Man and Mary, I will second the motion. Check out a pro choice blog sometime. I’m not condoning it, but this is how a lot of them talk!
Heather4life,
I know what you mean. This is not about a blog though but about San Francisco, you know that great bastion of choice and tolerance, banning ROTC in the schools. From what I can gather from the interview on the O’Reilly factor, it was only because this was a military organization, though I am certain San Franciscans, in spite of their seething contempt for the military and their love of peace and tolerance, wouldn’t hesitate to call on the military in time of need.
Anyway, the program was totally non-discriminatory, it had students who were low-income, minority, both genders, and differing sexual orientation, so discrimination could not have been the excuse. Most important, the students were in this program by choice, and with parental consent.
I never did hear the rationale nor was any concern expressed for the rights of these students, especially those who had put so much work and time into a program they very much wanted to be part of and a program they wanted to keep.
What’s really sad Heather is that this program probably provided many of these kids with the order and discipline they otherwise lacked in their lives. It also provided them with opportunities to better their lives. I understand in San Francisco its not considered politically correct to better yourself through the military. Its far more acceptable for these kids not to better themselves at all.
Anyway, this from the people who preach to the rest of us about the importance of freedom of choice and tolerance.
And the conflation/inflation demonization begins a new….
Once again, it appears wit = attack/viscious/threatening/pornography(??)/…
I suppose this means it’s OK to find jill and run her down in the crosswalk or something.
What’s wrong with you people? You say the stupidest @#$% about “Pro-aborts” but piss and moan like toddlers sent to bed early when someone does it to you.
“…but this is how a lot of them talk!”
Speaking of how they talk… just got this AFA action alert and reminded me of you all.
“…and then escalated into a ‘vicious attack’ on Christianity in general and Catholics in particular.”
Maher [impersonating Falwell]: We weren
Cameron,
Please take a shot of Jack Daniels, calm down, and try again. You’re writing a lot but really saying nothing.
Mary…
JD in the morning?
It’s no wonder you can’t figure out the working parts of brick.
I rest my case.
Cameron probably doubles as jill. Ya, he’s been drinkin.
Mary, I think it’s going to take more than one shot of Jack. Something like a labotomy.
Allow me to add this. Cameron seems to want anything but a debate. He comes on swinging. He has a habit of name calling. Some of his favorites are idiot, tard and retard. He always replies with LMAO. That stands for ‘Laughing my ass off.’ Cameron, your ass must be gone from all the laughing you do. I think the reason he comes here is because he and his pro choice buddies on the PC blogs are too much alike. He can’t have any fun there.
Let’s get an honest show of hands… who here has complained about political correctness?
for cameron, midnite, rae, diana, less, somg, erin, dan, etc:
Gonzales v. Carhart, April 18, 2007 (Upholding Congress’ 2003 PBA Ban)
Verbatim quotes:
“Dr. Haskell went in with forceps and grabbed the baby’s legs and pulled them down into the birth canal. Then he delivered the baby’s body and the arms-everything but the head. The doctor kept the head right inside the uterus… The baby’s little fingers were clasping and unclasping, and his little feet were kicking. Then the doctor stuck the scissors in the back of his head, and the baby’s arms jerked out, like a startle reaction, like a flinch, like a baby does when he thinks he is going to fall. The doctor opened up the scissors, stuck a high-powered suction tube into the opening, and sucked the baby’s brains out. Now the baby went completely limp… He cut the umbilical cord and delivered the placenta. He threw the baby in a pan, along with the placenta and the instruments he had just used.”
Wow jasper, that is so obviously horrid, demonic repulsive. I ask anyone, could you do that to a baby? Those of you “pro-choice” if this is something that you are fighting for choice about, you might as well be sticking the scissors in yourself!! It’s much easier to fight for “pro-choice” when you don’t have to see, hear or do the murdering!! How disgusting!!!!
jasper, I have heard that story many times before. That pig Haskell is from my state. I’m ashamed of that. How dare anyone take a human life this way. Especially to an innocent unborn child. That is point blank homicide! Abortionists should be thrown in prison!! I pray for that day when this becomes a crime!!!
Jasper:
I know what abortions are and how they are preformed. Do you really think “shock” value will change my opinion after a decade?
How could anyone do this for a living? Ah, just go to my clinic, kill babies, throw em in the garbage. Your heart has got to be made of solid stone. You have got to be a psychopath! As a mother allowing this to be done to her baby… same rules apply. Sick. Beyond sick. And don’t tell me that the child can’t feel pain. Bull sh**!!! How could they not???
I meant as far as a mother [see above]
I was driving behind this woman yesterday. She had a very tiny bumper sticker that said: Keep abortion legal. She also had a NARAL sticker on the bumper. I wondered if she even knew what she really stood for. Keep child murder legal. I wanted to pull over and hurl.
I would not consider having an abortion a symotom of APD. Nope, doesnt fit the criteria…
I really wonder what must go through their minds when they jam those scissors into the back of that defenseless child’s skull. Would they seek pleasure in blugeoning an adult over the head with a baseball bat? I wondrer how many of these cowards will cry like babies when the time comes for them to meet their maker.
Dear God, someone just said Jack Daniels. That is the magic word. Do not taunt a southern girl the night before her last final with the best thing man has ever created.
I must be the only southerner that cant drink Jack Daniels…
“I wondrer how many of these cowards will cry like babies when the time comes for them to meet their maker.”
allong with assuming he’s a single parent that writes books, you’re assuming there is a maker.
Cameron, are you smashed? I’m afraid I don’t follow you….. as usual.
midnite, sometime things are done that are so disgusting and horrible and people don’t really understand what actually goes on. It’s not “shock value” it’s called truth. This is an example of such horrible truth that one can almost read it! Would you be there watching midnite and not be bothered? Would you be standing there telling the doctor to go ahead, stick those scissors in, it’s not as bad as it sounds!
http://uab.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=30047154&id=1570620187&op=7&view=all&subj=2211053431&aid=-1&oid=2211053431
Here is Cam drinking the day away
*blows kiss @ Cam*
If someone were to do this to a dog, they would be in jail. But some fight for the right to do this to a human! A child no less!
Luvmy5kids:
Trust me, I know what *actually* goes on. I’ve watched a video of an abortion (in my Psych Development class). Please dont try to “dumb me down” and think I dont know what really goes on, b/c I do.
wow midnite and you still think it’s “O.K.”
not murder huh?
Those out there who have never seen an abortion or heard it discribed this way need to, if they are “pro-choice” “pro-murder” Many would change their minds. I know not ALL of “them” are not as callous as some!
http://uab.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=32042353&id=8231729&op=7&view=all&subj=2211053431&aid=-1&oid=2211053431
hehe, heres another one
don’t think I have to try to “dumb you down” midnite, I think what you say does well for yourself.
*sigh* People like luv are the ones who keep me from even considering being prolife, just so you guys know. Self-righteous hoo-hah just doesn’t do anything for me.
Heather, I also would like to see them cry like babies when they meet their Maker.
I am not callous first off. secondly, abortions are not murder. Have you ever bothered to read a law book and know the three things required for a murder? B/c abortions dont have them present. Sorry, they are killings, but alas, not all killings are illegal (i.e. war, self defense)
Erin, I don’t think it’s people that keep you from being pro-life, i think it’s an obvious disrespect for life, it’s called selfishness, wanting your own happiness and fortune, opportunity, things…on and on and on, and putting all that before the right of a child to have his life. Don’t blame your selfish behavior on others.
I has amarettoz!
*catches kisses… blows one back
You know something luvmy5kids: I dont remember verbally attacking you and calling you stupid or dumb….
Why is it ok for you to do it to me? Just a thought, but why are you *better* than me.
And just so you know, I am a very nice person. Dont attacke me and I’ll be nice to you (ask Heather, we had a lovelt conversation yesterday)
Yeah, see, that’s what I mean. God forbid that I want to have happiness and opportunity! Oh noes! I better stay in the kitchen and pop out 7 babies!
It’s a vagina, not a clown car, luv.
And seriously, why is the fetus always a he? “right of a child to have his life” “Killed your son in the womb”…who are you to say it isn’t a she?
Luv, and yes, it is self righteous junk that keeps me from considering the viewpoint. I see wonderful sweet people like Heather who are honestly the most concerned about bringing a child into a life. Heather is always most worried about ‘the babies’. You seem to only care about harrassing people who don’t agree with you. That’s why I like Heather. And why I don’t really like you. You’re spiteful- Heather is honestly concerned and wants what she believes is best. You are nasty and accusatory. That’s not going to encourage ANYONE to agree with you.
you’re right some killings are legal, they didn’t start out that way, some selfish people made them legal, that doesn’t make them right. If you use law to decide what is right your in trouble. I’m guessing then that if Pr. Bush passed a law to kill all abortion doctors then you would agree with it. Only after it has become legal of course, because then it is right?
Legal does not = right!
hey cam, I got a great one for this site, but I think Jill would have a hernia if I posted it….
I guess I missed the part where I told you to stay in the kitchen and pop out 7 babies. No one is telling you to have children, I’m just telling you that is is wrong to kill the child that you have already made.
By the way, rapists put their “happiness” and fulfillment before the life of their victim. Just to compare a little.
Incest5,
Since you seem a lil’ clueless… abortion has never really been illegal until recently, when medical procedure made it easy and safer, that’s when people tried to ban it outright.
Did I ever say that if something is legal it is automatically right? No I did not. I simply pointed out that abortions are not murders.
You know something, you really have an attitude problem.
luv- yeah, because my career as a historian or valuing my eyesight or my autonomy is totally comparable to rape. I see it now. I’m a terrible, terrible person. I should burn in hell.
Do you have a job, luv? Where did you go to college? What was your major? When did you get married?
Step off. I have a very good relationship with most people on this site(I think?) and I don’t feel like being reamed instead of being debated with.
“abortion has never really been illegal until recently, when medical procedure made it easy and safer, that’s when people tried to ban it outright.”
This is incorrect – “The law with respect to abortion in mid-19th century America followed existing common law of England in all but a few states. Thus, no indictment would occur for aborting a fetus of a consenting female prior to “quickening.” But, by the time of the Civil War, an influential anti-abortion movement began to affect legislation by inducing states to add to or revise their statutes in order to prohibit abortion at all stages of gestation. By 1910, every state had anti-abortion laws, except Kentucky whose courts judicially declared abortions to be illegal. In 1967, forty-nine states and the District of Columbia classified the crime of abortion as a felony.”
J. Lewis and Jon O. Shimabukuro, Congressional Research Service
Updated January 28, 2001
Abortion Law Development: A Brief Overview
http://www.policyalmanac.org/culture/archive/crs_abortion_overview.shtml
nope you just said that not all killings are illegal and you think abortion is killing but ok?
It’s not my decision on what another woman does with her body, and it is none of your either.
I would not *PERSONALLY* have an abortion (unles I was raped or my life was in danger), but I dont have the right to FORCE my opinions on someone else.
Do you understand the words that I am typing?
And rape and forced pregnancy are not illegal for the followers of parthogenic Jesus.
Erin, just wondering why the personal questions, are you wanting to get to know me, because honestly I welcome that, and I could get to know you, and truely I’m sorry if you felt insulted, I do have very strong feelings about this issue and while I don’t think I really called you any names, I am sorry that you were offended. The Dr. Haskell thing is so disturbing that I feel like I need to defend those children to the bitter end. Again, I’m sorry.
I just dont understand how some people would want to *force* a woman whose been raped to carry the fetus to term. I think that would fall under cruel and unusual punishment…
Cam, any thoughts my dear?
Watch ‘The Choice Blues’ Actual abortion in progress. Guys, not only do abortionists hate babies and kill them, they despise women too. Try Death Roe. com. Those bastards call women “tramps” “hoes” and “sluts” all in a days work! Former abortionist Brian Finkle is rotting in an Arizona prison. This dirty old fool raped and molested women for YEARS before being sentenced to 35 years in the slammer. ha ha! What goes around comes around! He brags to his fellow inmates about how he got to play with women’s [slang for vagina] and [slang for breasts] every day. He added “They were all a bunch of tramps, and they couldn’t keep their legs closed.” “They deserved it.” Google his name all you doubters. I hope you do!
“This is incorrect” Read your post!
No… just inaccurate. There were no “complete” bans on abortion until medical science made them easy and safe.
I want women to have the right to care for their own bodies, just don’t want them killing children. Someone needs to be the voice for the child because they can’t defend themselves.
As for Cameron, I know better than to respond, I learned very quickly how those things go on here.
hey how about my apology luv? You called me stupid/dumb in a round-about way….
I ask because a woman who never followed a career path that she was passionate about, who never were married and having children without ever following a career or without going to college, while that is their choice and I respect that, cannot have any comprehension of what it can feel like to realize that your entire life, everything that you have ever worked for, can be yanked out from under you if you are busy and forget to take a pill one day. The generalizations that you tend to make about pro-choicers are offensive. We are humans too. Comparing other people that have different opinions from you to rapists is terrible. I understand passionate viewpoints. I have several myself. But generalizations are stupid and hurtful and just a bad thing in general.
Heather that is horible that a doctor would do that. But not all abortion doctors are that way. A few bad apples gives them all a bad name. There have been plenty of cases of other doctors and dentists (even priests) molesting and raping people. There are just sickos in this world that we live in.
OK, Heather, I have a question. Say you go to a barbeque. A really fun barbeque. With a bunch of friends. And beer. Beer is important. You meet a really nice guy who recently moved into your neighborhood. Super nice guy. You like him, seems like a very nice man, well-to-do, smart, kind. Eventually, you find out that he is a doctor who performs abortions. Does the entire impression of the fellow just go out the window? Automatically, “EVIL BABY KILLER”? I’m not trying to be offensive, I’m honestly curious about how you’d react to that situation.
midnite, I agree, but this is a pro life site, so I found it fitting that I should bring up a corrupt abortionist.
That is very true Heather, and it is fitting. But one should realize that not all abortion doctors are going to be that way.
Alot of southerners are racist, does that mean that ALL southerners are racist? (serisoulsy, not baing a smart @$s, just asking a question.)
I’m 31 got married in 1994 because I loved Mark,
1 year and 9 months later had our first child. Four months ago had our fifth and last child.
Being a wife and mother was the career path that I chose, it is what I was passionate about. I emotional and financially supported my husband while he went to college and got a job and I still support him in that.
The equal of having “everything” yanked out from under me one day would be to lose my husband or one of my children, while I would be incredibly upset and sad and hurt, life would go on and we would still be happy.
“pro-choice” people are not all the same and have different reasons for being such, I know that. But this is a debate, that’s why we are here, on this site.
Hey Cameron, Midnite, Erin:
What are you guys all planning on doing this summer?
Work, school, travel?
And Luv:
Still WAITING for my APOLOGY….
“Cam, any thoughts my dear?”
Moral absolutism and Divine Providence.
The jesus freaks think that @#$’s got a plan for every soul that he’s created, and men have no choices beyond embracing wussyness and complacency… aka all has been preordained, and I
HisMan:
School and work (no time for traveling).
I work 30+ hours a week and go to school 17 hours a week. I dont have time for anything really.
Please run this name Yvette Chambers. She was sexually violated just minutes after her abortion procedure. The guy asked her out to lunch.
Heather, I know that bad things happen to people in abortion clinics. But I also realize that not all doctors are going to act like that. I find that horrid and repulsive.
Another reason I am on BC, I dont want to put myself in that situation.
Erin, may I counter your bbq situation? You go to a BBQ and meet a really nice guy and so on… then you find out he is just out on parole, he was in for murder, does that change your opinion of him or do you go out on a date?
I think some of the difference for us is that many of you see the difference between “pro-life” and “pro-choice” is just a difference of opinion, life the difference between UPS and FedEx.
Most of us “pro-lifers” think of it as a fact, it’s killing an innocent child, doesn’t matter why they are being killed, it’s just that it is happening.
Does that make sense?
Erin, I just read your question. I would not date an abortionist. I could not. Please don’t think that I am trying to start a riot, but it is offensive to my gender.
“What are you guys all planning on doing this summer?”
I’m firing-up another round of experiments. I’m also taking an undergraduate under my wings, and putting him to work here in the lab. We have the program here where we try to encourage minority students to get into the sciences. African americans are not well represented in science. There’s also the RA work (compiling surveys from this accademic year). We have to report to NSF and decide if we want to file for grant renewel. In addition to all this, I have comps and prospectus defense.
Speaking of African Americans, Dr. Edward Allred want to wipe them off the planet. This abortionist hates minorities, and a lot of women have died in his care.
Luv:
Still patiently waiting
What’s HisMan doin’ this summer?
Family vacation plans??
HisMan- working. I have an audition on Monday for a two-month run of Into the Woods, which would be really good money if I got cast, but if not, I’ll probably waitress.
Ok midnite, where did I offend or call you names?
Show me.
I am a *BAD* waitress.
“Being a wife and mother was the career path that I chose, it is what I was passionate about. I emotional and financially supported my husband while he went to college and got a job and I still support him in that.”
Good for you “luvmy5kid”, you are doing the most important job there is. You will never regret it either.
and for “Your heart has got to be made of solid stone” you couldn’t be more correct, as you can see, unfortunatly, that fits the description of some of the commenters here.
I hated being a waitress, people around here don’t understand how little waitress get paid in wages and they are horrible tippers. Can’t even get 10% out of them!
don’t think I have to try to “dumb you down” midnite, I think what you say does well for yourself.
Posted by: luvmy5kids at May 29, 2007 11:40 AM
Very round about way of calling me dumb.
thanks jasper, I know how important it is and I’m trying to do my best. I will never regret it!!
We have a great time as a family!
Jasper,
You think the most important job a female can do is a be a mom?
Wow, thats all I have to say, is wow.
ok midnite, I’ll apologize, I was quoting you though!
I will definately say that if you are a mom, then your most important job is to be that mom and a good one!
Um, no you were quoting me in that phrase.
And thank you for the apology
Well good thing I am not a mom then. B/c I wouldnt consider that my most important job if I was. Yes it is important but not the *most* important.
“You think the most important job a female can do is a be a mom?”
yes I do midnite, (of course females can have all kinds of careers) but raising and shaping a child’s life is very important and is very underrated. It too bad you have that view about stay-at-home Mom’s, it’s quite ignorant.
how many Moms are going to say at the end of their career “geez, I wish I spent more time at the office”
“Um, no you were quoting me in that phrase.”
What?
Jasper,
Please dont assume that I have a mindset about anything. I have no problem with stay at home moms. I wish I could do that, but I cant. I want a career (& children), and if I stayed at home to raise them, I would resent them.
And, dont call me ignorant until you look in a mirror
I am off to lunch. Jasper, please feel free to respond, I shall return later
midnite, you’re at work?! What do you do?
“and if I stayed at home to raise them, I would resent them”
you shouldn’t resent them, why? cherish them, their your kids, spend time with them.
and yes, your statements are very immature, maybe not ignorant.
luvmy5kids,
you know, from what I posted up top (Dr. Haskell), if that doesn’t change somebody to prolife, I honestly don’t know what will. some of them even joke about it…..
Cameron:
That sounds like a full schedule. I assume you are trying to get your Doctorate. I know it will pay off for you.
My wife used to work in the Microbilogy Dept. of the Strong Memorial Hospital (U of R) and I got to know a lot of the scientists there. One thing you have to have in that and similar fields is P-A-T-I-E-N-C-E.
I am very glad that you are helping minorities. I grew up in Rochester, NY and my best friend was an African-American who, while he was five years older than me, took me under his wing and really got me interested in math and science. He is a Senior research Scientist with Xerox now. I miss not seeing him anymore.
Erin:
My nephew went to Carnegie Mellon University in PA. He lives in LA and is now trying to break into acting. He has been on a few episodes of Desparate Housewives and other such TV shows. He’s a Robert DeNiro type and I think he will hit it big someday. He’s just not going to give up. His wife has been in Broadway plays and has an excellent voice. I think she will do well. They have a little boy who is a gem and have managed to keep him at the top of the list and still pursue their dreams.
Midnight:
No such thing as a bad waitress. My daughter works at a Bistro making salads for people. It’s a cool concept. In a way she’s a waitress. Sometimes I don’t like the way people can be rude though. Why would you call being a waitress “bad”?
As far as me:
We’re trying to build a house, so, we’re on a tight budget. We probably won’t be doing much this summer.
Last summer my wife and I went to Maui and spent 4 days there and 5 days in Lanai. We snorkeled, hiked, saw petroglyphs carved in stone, jeeped across the mountains, etc. I ended up golfing with Antonio Tarver (the boxer in the lastest Rocky movie and Justin Peele a tightend for the Miami Dolphins). That was cool, however, we kind of blew our vacation budget for a while.
Well, I hope all you guys stay safe and learn a lot this summer. This time in your lives is awesome. Unencumbered and free. Cherish it. Perhaps you’ll be able to see things from a different perspective about abortion and all. I know you all feel strongly about what you believe. The important thing is to not close our minds and hearts and to just be open to change. I have changed substantially over the last 30 years and believe things that I would have never dreamed of when I was in my 20’s. We’re all on a journey so the key is to enjoy the trip.
Erin, did you say that you wanted to get into acting?
yes, jasper, apparently so, it’s just sooo hard to see why others aren’t so upset by stories like that.
jasper, you are so right. How could anyone find that funny? It’s one of the sickest things I have ever heard. I think about my newborn daughter, and all she wants is for someone to hold her and snuggle her.[ tears in eyes while typing] I couldn’t imagine allowing someone to puncture her skull and toss her aside like garbage. The way that that pig SOB Haskell does. Again, I do not hate women who have had abortions, but the act itself sickens me to my core!
right there with you Heather, tears and babies and all.
yes, Heather,
I’m glad this procedure is illegal now but I posted it because many here still think abortion should be legal up until birth.
Although the bad news is; these demonic pigs can still rip the limbs from babies while there in womb, they can also still inject them with a poison needle and burn them to death.
I have also come across those lists where they actually speak vile things about the aborted children. I think someone in Hell must run those sites.
Jasper, in whole I am not immature, when it come to children yes I am. I am in only child and only been around a few kids (4) in my lifetime (that were not my age). So thus, the BC, and why I am waiting to have children. Although, I may not be able to any ways.
Luv:
I rent limousines. Job is boring, but it pays the bills and I dont have to pick up trys of heavy stuff (bad back). At least prom season is over and the annoying highschoolers are not calling me anymore…
Jasper, in whole I am not immature, when it come to children yes I am. I am in only child and only been around a few kids (4) in my lifetime (that were not my age). So thus, the BC, and why I am waiting to have children. Although, I may not be able to any ways.
Luv:
I rent limousines. Job is boring, but it pays the bills and I dont have to pick up trys of heavy stuff (bad back). At least prom season is over and the annoying highschoolers are not calling me anymore…
oops sorry for double post
I know guys. We all must stick together no matter what. I have been ridiculed for my beliefs. I have been called a Jesus Freak, b****,flake, hypocrite, idiot, gestator, etc. I have been told to **** off by Danielle. Not only am I talking about this site, but in every day life. Some pro choicers just don’t understand. Will they ever? Press on [as His Man says] …..gotta run. See you all later.
Hey Heather, I’ve never called you any of those things, I think you are very respectful, and on the whole, I like you.
Nidnite: “I know what abortions are and how they are preformed. Do you really think “shock” value will change my opinion after a decade?”
No, sadly, I don’t think it will change your opinion. I realize that now.
I would love to act career but it just isn’t realistic for me, unfortunately. I’m good(or I’ve been told) but it’s not realistic. If it was, I’d have taken my scholarship to Tisch and been in NYU, hands down.
I just went to PP to pick up my birth control for the month. I got spit on on my way in. They don’t even DO abortions on Tuesdays.
This is why I have such a hard time with some of you lifers.
Jasper, please dont be *sad* for me, lol. I am a grand person you just wont bother to look closer at me.
“They don’t even DO abortions on Tuesdays.”
how kind of them!
Can I ask you how many protesters were there Erin?
Little group. Ten to fifteen. Couple of them had signs. Seriously. I had a massive spit right on my back. I WAS GOING IN TO PICK UP BIRTH CONTROL. I am really, really pissed off. This never happens when I take Dan with me. He would have kicked some people in the face. I’m so incredibly pissed off right now.
remember erin that you don’t want to be lumped together with all choicers so don’t lump all lifers together either. we didn’t spit on you and i don’t think most of us would.
“I WAS GOING IN TO PICK UP BIRTH CONTROL”
You, by getting your birth control there, are supporting their murdering business.
jasper, you’re an idiot.
I got spit on. I’m PISSED OFF. What, I was going in to pick up birth control and so it is suddenly OK for someone who has never met me in their life to hack a spitwad onto my back? Yeah, sure. OK.
Jerk.
No, I didn’t say it was OK to spit on you.
It just that you shouldn’t be supporting the business that killed your son.
See, there it is again! How come it’s always an assumed ‘him’?
jasper, by buying birth control, I’m preventing the possibility of my needing another abortion. Especially considering it’s Dan and my last night together for several months and there will be a lot of sex happening tonight. Oh noes! I’m going to stay up all night making love with my boyfriend! It’s terrible!
Jasper PP does many other wonderful things besides Abortions. Ever bothered to look?
Erin,
If you and Dan are not responsible to raise a baby (your and dans words, not mine) you should not be having sex, what if you get pregnant again, what are going to do?
“PP does many other wonderful things besides Abortions.”
why isn’t abortion a wonderful thing Midnite?
“You, by getting your birth control there, are supporting their murdering business.”
By tithing, you’re supporting fascism.
Last I checked, PP is an .org… not a .com.
Jasper,
First sex is not just for preocreation. If that were the case I would have over 100 children by now. Try again.
Also, I am not going to answer your 2nd question b/c I dont feel like having you twist my words around to fit your agenda. I’ve explained that I wish abortions happened less. Keep up, plese.
procreation.
Hands are going faster than they keyboard lets me.
Why isn’t surgery in general a wonderful thing?
Oh… that’s right, it’s uncomfortable and invasive.
“By tithing, you’re supporting fascism”
No Cam, talk to Hugo Chavez in Venezuela
surgery is meant to heal, not kill.
“I’ve explained that I wish abortions happened less.”
midnite, why should abortion happen less?
ok, back for a sec. midnite, I know that you and I get along okay. You have never called me names. Neither has Erin. jasper, I have heard stories about these babies living through the salt poisonings. I have also heard of abortionists strangling them to “finish them off.” jasper, I don’t know if you have any children, but have you ever heard the whimper of a defenseless new born. Oh, if I ever saw a murdering abortionist do such a thing, I’d have no problem kicking their balls off! I swear!
One abortionist exclaimed “Aborted babies go into the garbage.” he continued “That’s all they are anyway… garbage.” This is a deceased human being! This isn’t a used Kleenex.
Now that statemtn, if he made it, is uncalled for. Not to mention just horrible in general. Jasper once again, I am not going to answer so you can twist my words around.
“jasper, I don’t know if you have any children, but have you ever heard the whimper of a defenseless new born.”
Yes, I have 2 boys: ages 6 & 4. Yes, I have heard that cry, it can make anybody melt with love. (we’ll, most of us).
Abortionists: these creatures are truly souless.
They are not creatures Jasper, they are humans, accept that fact.
jasper, right. Babies need us. We all needed someone to care for us. We may depend on someone to care for us again one day. I mean to tell ya, I have heard some horrid stories. Jill informed us all about these aborted babies being shelved to die. Could you imagine being born and left cold and naked on a shelf to die alone? Could you hear that little whimper or cry? What does that abortionist say? “Oh well he/she will probably die in a few hours.” ‘Frankly, I don’t have time to worry about it.”
I believe that is infanticide, not abortion.
“They are not creatures Jasper, they are humans, accept that fact.”
Fascinating you have to argue what is human and what is not.
Wow…this has become quite an angry thread this afternoon.
Dare I say I *must* be having sex because I’m on birth control and I will *eventually* have to go to PP to get my birth control because I won’t be on my parent’s insurance forever and I am *not* paying 30 bucks or more a month to control my endometriosis.
I’d like answers from all the pro-choicers on this site:
Do you gnerally like children? What about hours old newborns?
what is infanticide?
I like children, to a point…as long as I can give them back to their parents once they start misbehaving. :-p
I find newborns to be kinda creepy looking…babies don’t really look that cute until at least a month later (of course, this is just my opinion).
However, I don’t truly have a problem with children, I just don’t want my own kids and I plan to adopt older children.
Infanticide is basically a living newborn child being left to die.
i’m wondering how midnite would discribe infanticide.
Infanticide: The murder of an infant.
Infant = a born human under the age of 12 months.
Yes, Rae is right.
I’m sure nothing that awful goes on in our wonderful, free country!
@Luv: It does. I take it you are not familiar with the girl from Oakdale, Minnesota who gave birth and then stabbed her baby girl over 100 times?
Infanticide is commonly practiced in African countries as well as many Asian countries and it is usually girls as girls are seen as “worthless” in those cultures.
Erin and Midnite,
Concerning Jack Daniels, either of you southern ladies like Southern Comfort? My idol Janis Joplin used to swig it right from the bottle. What a gal.
The dehumanizing rhetoric here again, made me think of the stuff Nazis said about Jews.
Planned Parenthood as money-grubbing business… “Jewish God is Money”
Graphic portrayal of abortion as evidence of cruelty…. images of kosher butchers as evidence of “Jewish Cruelty”
Abortion responsible for all U.S. Problems (e.g. racism, cancer, depression, diminished tax revenue, etc…)… “the whole misfortune was brought to Germany by the Jews alone.”
Abortion as genocide (e.g. Jill
but I’m sure doctors don’t do it!
@Mary: We northerners can’t hold our liquor…at least my family can’t anymore (thank goodness we got past the rampant alcoholism in my family). My dad gets tipsy after a few bloody marys and I fall asleep (like…stone cold asleep) after a small glass of cheap wine and a small cup of Bailey’s. :-p
Yes, I guess I generally like children. As I stated earlier, I’ve only been around like 4 children in my life (only child). The ones that I am around, I love. Never been around an hour only newborn, so I cant answer that question for you.
the infantcide that is
I have a question for the pro-lifers..
Do you like infants more than adults and adolescents??
sorry i’m behind
sorry again, I don’t answer Cameron questions.
I cant drink whiskey anymore, (I got EXTREMELY sick off of it at 16) and the smell makes nauseous. When the BF drinks it I wont even kiss him.
Evan Williams & Jameson fan here. And the occasional Wild Turkey : ).
I don’t like Jack Daniels – too sweet for me.
luvmy5kids and Rae,
Concerning the disposal of females. Over 20 years ago I read an article by the late Dr. Robert Mendelsohn in which he charged that 4 out of 5 of the fetuses aborted for being the “wrong” sex in this country were female.
I remember columnist Ellen Goodman years ago trying to play sex selection down, saying sex selection abortion was done in only the rarest of situations. She didn’t specify how she knew the supposed rarity of sex selection abortions for a fact, even when I wrote and asked her for her source. This was in the days when ultrasound was not routinely performed and women were not routinely made aware of the fetal sex. That didn’t mean they couldn’t find out with the help of a sympathetic doctor. This obviously created a quandry for feminists as well, considering how Ms. Goodman was trying to downplay this. I also asked Ms. Goodman what would stop a woman from having a sex selection abortion if she wanted it and why Ms. Goodman even had an issue with them. I didn’t get a response to those questions either.
Since ultrasounds are more routinely performed now, one would wonder if this trend has continued. What would stop it? People write articles bragging of their “selective reductions” of multiple fetuses, so why would sex selection be an issue? If the trend did continue, then apparently Asia and Africa aren’t the only continents where females are devalued.
Mary- actually, I’ve never been a fan of SoCo. I can take it in a mix, but I’m not a big fan of it plain.
And actually, no, I’m not a fan of children. I tolerate them, but I’m not good with them and I’ve never really liked them.
I like babies when they are quiet.
It surprises me that luv is the only person saying that it’s wrong for someone to spit on me because I’m going into PP and that none of you guys would do something like that.
No whiskey, I could gag thinking about it… yuck
Wild Turkey and Ale-8, tastes like Scope, very good.
BTW, I like kids you know to look after for a while and make funny faces to make them laugh, but I’m glad to give them back to their parents, especially for a dirty diaper :-)
And newborns are cute in terms of thier tiny-ness, but they kind of look like aliens otherwise. (At least the ones, i’ve seen)
@Erin: I’d go with you to PP and if somebody spit on you I’d spit back.
@Mary: It is really unfortunate how females are so devalued, even here in the US. A woman and I work with were ranting about this at lunch last week and she was kind of pickin’ on one of the guys who works there who is from India about how he’d only marry a subservient girl who’d do whatever he asked…I dunno. Yeah…I know that probably doesn’t fit or whatev, in my mind there was a connection. :)
Erin, I’ll go with you but I wont spit, I’ll knock a (insert vulgar word here) out!
Erin,
I haven’t gone through all the posts so I didn’t pick up on that. It is despicable for anyone to spit on you for any reason. I respect peaceful protest, I do not support verbally abusing people or physically assulting people in any manner. I would consider spitting on you to be physical assault.
I’m very sorry this happened to you and I condemn it.
By the way, I had three babies and I liked them better when they were quiet too.
Erin,
I would also like to go on record as saying that it is totally wrong for someone to spit on someone else.
I had a friend who if someone would even inadvertantly spit on her she would throw up. This would have been a good idea for you to have thrown up on the person who spit on you. (You know, an eye for an eye and all) ;-)
@Mary: My mom wishes my brothers and I were still babies because when we were babies she could dress us up as she liked and we wouldn’t talk back (plus it’s cheaper buying baby food and diapers than it is paying for two kids in college! :D).
I shudder at the memory of clothing and haircuts I had as a baby…I had a mullet, my mom thought it was “darling”.
Heh, OK, I feel a little reassured. Now I won’t go back and spit on them(though Dan threatened to break some skulls), and Mary, I even agree with you that they have every right to peaceful protest. I strongly disagree with it, especailly since I think it can be very stressful to the women, but it’s completely legal and it’s their right.
Rae,
We mothers think some of the darnedest things are cute, though in my totally unbiased opinion my little ones always looked darling! My daughter got back at me as she got older by telling me what a dork I looked like. She did give me some good fashion advise and looking at my old pictures, she was right! I mean mom pants! UGH
@Mary: Tee-hee. You should see my mom’s 1980’s poodle perm. She had pretty short hair, but she’d always perm the crap out of it so it looked like she had a Brillo pad on her head.
She let me run around in SPANDEX SHORTS. How cruel is that? :-p
What about stirrup pants?
Those were horrendous.
Rae, I wore spandex shorts, and the leggins too, haha, we are children of the 80’s afterall
Oh gosh…I had stirrup pants. They were awful!
Remember those hideously bright shirts that had fruit and flowers all over them that clashed so horribly with itself that you would then pull to the side and tie it with a clashing scrunchie?
Oh the 80’s-early 90’s…those were the days.
Rae,
What a hoot! Imagine orange-glo spandex. Women did wear that. Believe me, many of them shouldn’t have. Wait long enough and the style will return. I’m sure you can’t wait. By the way in the early 70’s when I was in college, the “30s” were making a comeback. I really liked that style and would like to see it return.
JK,
I wore stirrup pants in 1962 and in the mid 80’s. Everything old is new again. In 1962 they were viewed as “greaser” pants. We had the “frats” and the “greasers” and the “greasers” looked a little more like hoodlums. I was too young to be either. Those bands could sure cut into your feet.
Ladies, just hope the “beehive” never returns!
My mom had a mini beehive!
@Mary: Aw gee whiz, I like the beehive…just kidding of course. I don’t have long enough hair to pull it off. :-p
I rather hope the 50’s style clothing comes back…I
and I thought my mothers big hair and bangs was bad, hahahaha
@Midnite: Did your mom have Farrah Fawcett hair? :D
“I have heard some horrid stories. Jill informed us all about these aborted babies being shelved to die. Could you imagine being born and left cold and naked on a shelf to die alone? Could you hear that little whimper or cry? ”
Yes Heather, I read Jill’s stories, only a monster could condone this.
Cameron:
Since I see babies in the womb as human beings, I like them as much as borns or adults.
The difference is that babies in the womb that are being murdered are defenseless.
It’s as if you were made somehow defenseless Cameron and I was aware of it, I would come to your aid as well.
By the way, your analagy of using Nazi’s, Jews, Planned Parenthood is a huge stretch.
You see, Jews are victimized because of their race and religion.
Babies are victimized for no other reason they they appear and exist.
To try to paint Planned Parenthood as victims is comical but tragic.
“ow I won’t go back and spit on them(though Dan threatened to break some skulls)”
what kind of man Erin, would escort you into the devils chamber. Dan has been seduced by satan, I’m sorry to hear that.
HisMan:
“Do you gnerally like children? What about hours old newborns?”
Honestly, children under the age of about 5 years make me highly uncomfortable. It’s a bit difficult to explain why, they just always have as far as I can remember.
“what kind of man Erin, would escort you into the devils chamber. Dan has been seduced by satan, I’m sorry to hear that.”
Honestly Jasper, I wonder if you just say this stuff as a parody of people who actually think like that or if you truly believe what you say. Because sometimes I can’t tell and all I can do is laugh at the ridiculousness of your statements.
The man who has been seduced by Satan is taking me out to a very romantic steak dinner in the city now. I can live with a guy who escorts me into the devil’s chamber as long as he loves me and is taking me to a wonderful dinner tonight.
And I am perfectly capable of corrupting myself- no guy has to do it to me.
Anyway, wonderful boyfriend, steak dinner, have a good night!
“Honestly Jasper, I wonder if you just say this stuff as a parody of people who actually think like that or if you truly believe what you say.”
I believe what I say.
Shocker
Erin –
Sorry about what happened to you outside of PP. Were there any escorts there that day to witness it? Because usually the escorts get to recognize the usual protesters and can idenitfy them if need be.
If it makes you feel any better, I’ve had my tires slashed, been followed to my car more than once, told to have a miscarriage, told to die, had stuff thrown at me, and been called all sorts of lovely names, of course by people claiming to be Christians.
The best part is, if you read the protesters account of the protests, they always make it sound like there were 50 people there, holding hands and praying and turning girls away from the door – when in REALITY, I’ve never seen more than 8 protesters at a time (usually it was the same 5 people though), and the “protest” usually comprises of waiting for a patient to walk in the door, ambushing her with fake pictures, verbally assaulting her, and sometimes threatening her – and of course 9 times out of 10 the girl is coming in for a pregnancy test or to pick up birth control. I had a bet with the door escort to see if anyone actually turned around and didnt come in because of the protesters. In 6 months – it never happened.
Jill are you editing my posts again??
Hello Amanda my dear…
Remember karma is a biznitch and will bite them on the arse one day for that…
Hello to you too =)
And yes, Karma showed its face quite quickly – when I told the tow truck driver what happened, he towed me for free even though I told him AAA would reimburse me later if I paid him. Then when I told the guy at the tire shop what happened, he gave me 4 brand new tires instead of just replacing the two that were slashed, but only charged my insurance for 2 and then told me he his wife was enrolled in the affordable pre natal care program at PP, so he was very grateful for everything they do in his community.
So that night when I called my mom and related the whole story, she said she couldn’t be too upset after seeing how well God looked after me.
Amanda:
I think you’re are right when you say that these are people who claim to be Christians.
It’s one thing to be against abortion and another to treat pro-choicers as if they weren’t human.
Can you suggest other ways that Christians may be able to help you see things as pro-lifers do? I’m just curious. Should we stop trying?
If pro-choicers are so against abortion why don’t they do more to help women do those things which really affects pregnancy? Why is abstinence such anathema to pro-choicers? Is it not willing to forsake sexual pleasure so that one can avoid killing a baby in the womb? Can you see how a Christian might see that as selfish?
I’m really trying to understand and make sense of it.
Erin: “Heh, OK, I feel a little reassured. Now I won’t go back and spit on them(though Dan threatened to break some skulls)”
Erin, I don’t condone protesters spitting on people walking into the clinic. And as far as Dan breaking their skulls. They only do that inside the clinic, not outside.
My stomach had an orgasm tonight. I had lobster tail and filet mignon. It was INCREDIBLE.
I’m a lurker here who is fully pro-life, a faithful Catholic, formerly Episcopalian, formerly atheist, formerly Methodist.
I want to send a plea out to my fellow pro-lifers: PLEASE remember we are talking to/ debating with human beings who are, like us, sons and daughters of God, even if they don’t know it.
There seems to be so much acrimony and ill will here, coming from both sides. Isn’t it our part to show forth Christ’s love by speaking in love even when we and others are being attacked?
No, we’re not going to stand by while babies are murdered… but these pro-choice advocates are not themselves murdering babies as we speak. They are visiting us in our forum. Let’s give them a hand up, show them there’s a higher ground where all is not darkness and shadows: and we want them to join us.
Am I the only one thinking this? We need to lead by example. Let’s not come from a place of anger but from a place of healing love and forgiveness. Let’s not excuse or mince words; but let’s not fight fire with fire, either. Let’s fight fire with water. Let’s fight hate with love. Let’s fight death with life. Please.
Erin:
God is amazing isn’t He? That He blesses everyone, despite their disobedience. Why do you think that is? Perhaps it’s not a blessing?
Think of the 50,000,000 or so human beings that will never be able to even imagine what a lobster tail and filet mignon would taste like and experience the love and friendship of a boyfriend or girlfriend.
Brett:
Welcome to the blog.
I agree with just about everything you said except that we are all sons and daughters of God. The Bible does not teach that. In fact, it says clearly in Romans that we are enemies of God and subject to wrath until we come to faith in Christ.
Please do not water down the word especially in front of non-believers and by doing so condemn yourself.
Erin, I’m sorry, I don’t believe pro-lifers spit on you, and Amanda, I don’t believe pro-lifers slashed your tires. I’ve been to plenty of vigils and protests around the country and have NEVER encountered ONE pro-lifer who behaved that way. Erin, where is your PP clinic? I’d like to research you does sidewalk counseling there.
I’m not saying either of you are lying. You may think your experience was so. Don’t believe either one happened, however.
Let me add this. I have met a lot of people that say that they are NOT religious yet they are still against abortion. Perhaps these were the people who resorted to the spitting/ tire slashing. Erin, I think spitting on someone is assault. Did you press charges?
“I think spitting on someone is assault”
I’m pretty sure you’re right. Heh, I think it was grounds for my mother to put a restraining order on her ex-husband shortly after the divorce, actually. Or, at least, it might have been a contributing factor.
I knew a woman who spit on a cop after being pulled over for a DUI. They charged her with felonious assault.
When Roberto Alomar spit on that umpire he got suspended for the rest of the season.
Brett,
Welcome. You make an excellent point. While I have seen some heated exchanges I think you will also find more personal, friendly ones as well. While we may disagree on the issue of abortion, we also share many common interests and concerns. We don’t all march in lockstep but this would be a very boring blog if we did!
Brett, some of them have already joined us.
Yes, Erin, the more I think about it, the more your assertion doesn’t pass the smell test.
Violence at abortion mills is now a federal offense. Extremely serious. Did you notify a PP mill worker? If so, PP should have been on the phone to the police faster than a NY minute. They call the cops if a pro-lifer looks at them cross-eyed.
If Erin and Amanda’s accounts are accurate, and I’m not taking a stand that they’re not, then I hope these incidents were immediately reported to the police as these are all very serious offenses, federal or not. If Amanda was followed to her car she should have returned to the building and called the police for an escort. Were there cameras in the parking lot? Amanda mentions an escort. Have they helped with legal action in the event of assualts or vandalism? Never take vandalism, or verbal or physical assaults lightly. These are potentially very dangerous people and the police would have every right to take action against them.
I’ve noticed that when animal rights people attack and verbally abuse shoppers at fur stores this is not considered a federal offense. In fact, it seems almost acceptable. I believe actess Rikki Lake was even involved in vandalizing a fur store, and she got little more than a wrist slapping and hero status. But I digress.
Its also easy to wrongly assume who the guilty party is. Several years ago someone placed a plastic grenade in front of the local outpatient surgery center that was performing abortions. Naturally it caused a ruckus. The newspaper lectured the pro-life community, who they assumed had to be guilty. Come on folks, ANYBODY could have placed this. I said that if the newspaper “knew” the person placing this item was pro-life, then they must know who did it and did they report this person to the police? We never did get an answer to that.
I’m not saying either of you are lying. You may think your experience was so. Don’t believe either one happened, however.
That…would be saying they’re lying, Jill. You can’t just think your experience was having your tires slashed: your deflated tires is pretty good evidence of it, you know, actually happening.
I do believe someone is is denial regarding what their side occasionally does.
ANYBODY could have placed this…
Yes, and who else would have wanted to?
Jill – are you really that naive to think those things dont happen at PP clinics? Employees have been murdered – shot, blown up, etc – and you dont think its possible someone was spit on or had their tires slashed? Even your pal HisMan understands this sort of thing goes on – why are you in such denial? Thats actually quite pathetic.
Mary – Yes, I called the police and filed a police report, which is why I couldn’t call the regular AAA tow truck – the NYPD send their own tow trucks. The problem with them following me when I leave is that it is a public sidewalk in New York City – they keep enough distance, but just walk behind me and shout at me. After my tires were slashed though, I stopped driving there and took the subway – its a lot harder for people to get away with that sort of thing in front of so many other people – so that was the trick to dealing with that. Plus it probably wasnt worth the 2 dollar subway fare for them to yell stupid stuff at me.
Also – yes Mary, the escorts are there to help patients get through the protesters and ensure safety for both sides by making sure the protesters maintain the proper distance from the door. They have, on many occaisions, gone to court to testify against protesters who assault patients – spitting is actually the most common. However, its purely a volunteer position, and requires the kind of patience not too many people have, so not all clinics can staff escorts during all of their hours.
Less, there was a bomb placed outside an aborion clinic in Austin by a mentally ill man with absolutely no opinion on abortion.
Aside from a random person with mental illness, it is entirely reasonable that a pro-choice person could have placed the fake bomb in order to give the impression that it was laid by a pro-life nutcase.
Amanda, I’m curious: how do you get to be an escort? What are the requirements? Is there a website or something, or do you go up to a clinic and ask? I’ve always wondered about that.
“Employees have been murdered – shot, blown up, etc
Less – if you go to the PP website and click on volunteer opportunities, then look for the clinic nearest you, there is almost always a posting for escorts. The requirements are that you are over 18, consent to a background check, and go through a training program on how to deal with the protesters. It really requires a certain type of person though – because you literally cant say ANYTHING to them. If they do something wrong, you have to fill out paperwork and notify the authorities, but you cant fight back or talk back to them. I’d explode from high blood pressure if I had to do that for 6 hours straight – it was bad enough just getting in and out of the door twice.
SH – http://www.cnn.com/US/9611/29/salvi.wrap/
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/04/13/eric.rudolph/index.html
http://my.execpc.com/~awallace/sentenced.htm
http://www.armyofgod.com/POClist.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion-related_violence
I’d still like to know if Erin pressed any charges?
Amanda thank you for the links. It is tragic abortion employees, guards, etc. have been killed and I do not advocate that course of action. However, the abortion mills and the employees that work there are responsible for the murder of roughly 126,000 babies a day worldwide. To me, that fact is much more upsetting.
also – its pretty funny that Jill rejects the reality of extremist’s actions… when most prominent pro life groups have had the decency to speak out against this behavior:
“Nearly all mainstream pro-life organizations now reject violence as a form of opposition to abortion.[8] Advocates of force tend to be small groups or lone individuals.[8]
Pro-life activism generally consists of activism such as picketing, vigils, and “sidewalk counseling” outside abortion clinics. Some of these activities become so disruptive that some governments have responded with laws that protect access to abortion, particularly the creation of buffer zones where protesters are not permitted to approach those entering or exiting facilities providing abortion.
In response to incidents of anti-abortion violence, many groups in the pro-life movement have sought to isolate themselves from violent factions in a number of ways. Many pro-life advocates have vocally condemned violent actions against abortion providers as running contrary to the values and goals of the right-to-life cause.[20]
Following the 1998 bombing of a clinic in Birmingham, Alabama, Feminists for Life offered a reward for the arrest and conviction of those responsible.[21] In 2001, Priests for Life, a group of pro-life priests in the United States, put in place a $50,000 reward for information that leads to the arrest of fugitives wanted in connection with violence against abortion providers.[22] The American Life League issued a “Pro-life Proclamation Against Violence” in 2006.[23] Other pro-life groups to take a stand against violence include Center for Bio-Ethical Reform and Pro-Lifers Against Clinic Violence.
Speakers on behalf of the Roman Catholic Church have stated that Catholic doctrine describes violent acts as being as equally detestable as war and abortion.[24] The Church withdrew funding for two Canadian groups that had resorted to harassment of abortion providers.[8] However, Catholic pro-life group Human Life International has issued statements minimizing the seriousness of anti-abortion violence (see Statements from HLI).”
As I mentioned before, not everyone that wants to see abortion abolished is a Christian. Don’t assume. I swear I have met agnostics who find abortion pathetic. There had to be witnesses surrounding “the spitter.” I’m sure at least one of them would take a stand, and they would have come forward as a witness. As Jill mentioned, what about cameras? There have GOT to be cameras in a PP parking lot. That tape should have been handed over to the police. If it was a “regular” the police should have no trouble identifying the perpetrator.
Oh, did you guys see Dr. Defense’s posts the other day? He told everyone where he believes Paul Hill’s wife and children reside. He came off as very threatening! Paul Hill’s wife and kids didn’t kill that abortionist.This works both ways. Dr. Defense also posts as SOMG. Do pro choicers condone this behavior?
The PP I interned at was in New York City – no parking lot.
There is a camera at the door, but that doesn’t do a whole lot of good for my car 200 feet away.
As for spit – you really think you could spot something like that on a grainy black and white security camera? Like I said – if there were escorts there that day, it would have been reported, but if there were no escorts, it would be her word against the protesters, and the police really can’t do much about that without physical evidence.
No, I am not saying that a camera would catch someone spitting. I am saying that had that been me, I would have reported it to the cops pronto! They have to fill out a report! I would have used my cell phone, or I would have gone into the clinic and reported what had happened. The clinic could have called the police.
SH:
http://www.usdoj.gov/opa/pr/2003/June/03_ag_326.htm
Click on the Link. On January 29th, 1998, Robert Rudolph bombed an abortion clinic in my town,(Birmingham, AL). A security guard (who escorted patients like Amanda is talking about, so yes, he was an emplpoyee) was killed and a nurse was injured severely. Rudolph belongs to the “Army of God”. He can write letters from jail talking about how “God told him to kill innocent people to save innocent babies”. It’s disgusting, but if you so wish, please check out his websit, I warn you, it is not for the faint of heart.
http://www.armyofgod.com/
The police that was killed the horrid day was my mother’s partner at Birmingham PD (south precinct). I grew up with this man, and called him Uncle Sandy. I was 13 or 14 at the time, and my mother had to explain to me about Rudoplh and what had happend. Talk about a wake up call for a young teenager. The part that is so sick about this bombing is that it was remoted detonanted. That means Rudoplh watched this Police officer walk over to the bushes and when he was standing right over the “suspicous package” he detonanted it.
Now who is going to tell me again that crazy pro-lifers (I am not saying anyoneon this site is, but yes these people DO EXISIT) dont bomb/assault abortion clinics or people?
I would have told PP “I have just been spit on!” “Call the police.” I would describe the person or do whatever it took. I would have demanded that a police report be filed.
Oh and let me tell you this. The Police officer that was murdered was Pro-Life. He died b/c of a nut job & worked there b/c of previous threats. He told my mother, I dont agree with what happens there, but it is my obligation to protect these women, whether or not I agree with their decision.
Talk about Ironic. Rudoplh killed another Pro-Lifer…
Those pics. of the aborted babies make me heart sick. I needed a reminder as to why abortion should be illegal!
No heather, click to go inside the sit and then click on rudolph’s page and read wtf he wrote about the bombing in B’ham. I am not talking about the darn pictures…
I am not a violent person, but let’s face the fact that we do have violent people in society. What about the postal worker who snaps one day? Did we see it coming? Usually the answer is no. Look at the V Tech shootings. You’re never going to rid society of every crack pot. Someone could be stable one day, and the following year they could go on a shooting spree.
No, Rudolph, I believe bombed more abortions clinics than the one in B’ham. He is also the nut that bombed the Atlanta Olympics in 96. The crazy pro-life group “Army of God” hid him, so he wouldnt be punished for his crimes.
Still havent figured out why he bombed the Olympics though, he says it was related to his “Holy war against abortions”. On that website I listed
I was in Las Vegas last year. Some guy got behind the wheel of his car and proceeded to mow over several people on The Strip! He killed several people. When police apprehended and questioned him he said, “All those people were devils.” “They were all looking at me with red devil’s eyes.” “DEVILS” So, it could be an abortion clinic or Las Vegas Blvd. If someone is mentally unstable, they could strike out anywhere.
midnite, I will check out the Army of God. Never even heard of them.
Thats the problem Heather, Rudolph was not unstable or mentally ill. He refused to even plea not guiloty by reason of insanity. He was/is just as stable as you or I. He truely believes that killing a life will end abortions in America.
And he is allowed computer access and letters to kepp “spreading the word” through his propoganda website “Army of God”. How do you think that police officer’s family feels knowing he can do this (and they do, they ‘highlighted’ his writings on the local news one night. Thats how I found that BS website), or the nurse whose face he mangled for life, or the victims from the Centinial Park he bombed?
This group is stll active in America (mainly in the south) and will probably strike again. I just dont understand how a person who is pro-life can have such high regards for the unborn but not value the life that is already here. And then have the courage and conviction to kill innocent people (like the police officer and the victims at Centinial Park).
Do you see where I am going with this?
I agree that there are lots of unstable people out there, from all political and religious stand-points, who can do a lot of damage! Unfortunately for pro-lifers it seems the bad apples out there are the ones that get all the attention, taking away from the truth of the issue
I agree SH, but it certainly doesn’t help the cause when people who do not participate in this behavior insist on denying that it goes on and accuse victims of lying.
Just as the pro choice extremists get more attention than the rest of us, pro life extremists get more attention than the rest of you. Although, I consider Jill an extremist, as she continually denies the incidences of violence by pro lifers, despite the fact that she herself posted a column advocating domestic violence towards women who have abortions.
Please, dont just look at the pictures read the literature (mainly Rudolph’s). I am hoping and praying you will see what I see (pure disregard for human life).
That group is why I am passionate about being pro-choice. I know that not everyone who is pro-life is like that (a lot of you on this site I highly respect an have given me the opportunity to re-evaluate my stance on the topic. And I dont believe any of you on here would do such a horrid thing).
But that group and Rudolph took away something very precious to me. My “uncle” Sandy. And I will never get him back or stop fighting for the injustice that was done to him.
Does this help any of you understand why I think they way I do now?
I do understand your point midnite. To me you have got to be a bit mentally unstable to commit that kind of violence. Personally, nothing would be worth going to prison over. Violence solves nothing… ARE YOU LISTENING SOMG aka DR. DEFENSE?
SH, I agree, the bad apples get all of the attention. I used to believe that every pro-lifer was like Rudolph and “Army of God”.
After talking with pro-lifers on this board and others, I have found that most are like myself, not extremists. But they are out there. And it pisses me off when people say “that it is a lie, and that stuff doesnt go on”, when it really does. I have witnessed it first hand, and suffered from someone else’s actions.
midnite, did you say that one of your family members died in that bombing? Sorry, I may have missed that.
Not to mention that group is another reason why I do not consider myself a Christian anymore or go to church. They truely believe that they are “fighting God’s battle”, by killing adults to save unborn children.
Ok, now that I am crying, I am going to get ready for work. When I have calmed down a bit, I will return
(nothing anyone did here, Rudolph and that subject makes me cry, and my heart ache)
midnite, this is NOT directed at you. It also pisses me off that that clown Dr. Defense comes on this blog and posts information about Paul Hill’s wife and children. What if some nut job caught wind of that and went after them? That’s uncalled for. Paul Hill killed the abortionist. He has been executed. Done deal. Why should his family be brought into it?
and why I am an advocate for the death penalty as well. He should’ve riden “big yellow” for what he did, but the federal gov. decided to lock him up life instead. so he can keep terrorizing the victim’s families and spreading his bigoted lies to other believers in his filth.
midnite, Please don’t cry. I have to go now. See you later.
Midnite, I am sorry you lost such a close family friend. And I understand why this would upset you. It would upset me too!
You say the Army of God website is disturbing because of the “pure disregard for human life” and that is why you are pro-choice. I know this is just one factor in why you are pro-choice, but I don’t understand why this would be one of them.
This man killed people. So because this man killed those people and someone you love, you are choosing to support the killing of even more lives? I am not trying to upset you further but this does not make sense to me.
That absolute disregard for the people working at the clinic and the police officers is the same disregard shown by abortion supporters and the medical staff that performs them. No regard is given to the babies that are killed each and everyday.
Amanda, I don’t think Jill is an extremist by any means. I highly doubt she would ever physically assault someone walking into an abortion clinic, slash tires, spit, etc. Jill is a passionate pro-life, as most of the pro-lifers here are, and has a very high regard for human life
* pro-lifer
SH – Id agree with you about the majority of pro lifers, but not Jill. Im not sure if you were around when she posted a piece called “Italian Abortion Mafia” – actually, you can blame that specific piece for the majority of pro choicers being here.
In the piece, she used an example from The Godfather and went on to say that a wife who gets an abortion deserves to be struck by her husband, and that any “real man” would have done the same.
This piece angered Italian Americans for her gross use of stereotypes, and it also angered many pro lifers who were upset by her promotion of domestic abuse. She even argued with one pro lifer by saying that “one slap does not domestic violence make”. The pro lifer replied by asking her how many slaps does it take then? Jill never responded.
I believe anyone who advocates physical violence for ANY reason – whether it be abortion (pro life or pro choice), animal rights, politics, you name it , is an extremist. I would say the same thing if a pro choice blogger advocated domestic abuse in the same way.
“I believe anyone who advocates physical violence for ANY reason – whether it be abortion (pro life or pro choice)”
Amanda, it good to see that your pro-life, I thought you were pro-abortion.
SH-
That website has pure disregard of human life of people that are already alive and breathing. They value the life of a fetus before life of another (an adult).
I dont think it is right to give more rights to the unborn than to the living. Also, I have always said I personally would never have an abortion (unles I was raped or my life was in danger). But, I dont have a say so with what another woman does with her body (make sense?).
Ahhh – Jasper the master of twisting words.
I am certainly not pro abortion. Never have been, never will be. I am, however, very much in support of the idea that women have the right to make their own decisions.
We’ll wait a minute Amanda, you said:
“I believe anyone who advocates physical violence for ANY reason – whether it be abortion (pro life or pro choice), animal rights, politics, you name it , is an extremist”
do you take back your words? I thought you were against violence for any reason?
Thats what he does Amanda, twists the words around to fit his agenda. Everyone ispro abort in his eyes, even me (although I’d never have one myself)… Makes NO sense.
Sorry to dissapoint Jasper, but I will not get sucked in your juvenile word games. If this is seriously the only way you can have a discussion, I truly pity you.
He’ll just keep asking you the same question over and over again, just to irritate you.
Amanda,
It’s a very simple question, you said that anyone who advocated for violence for ANY reason is an extremist. Do you stand by your words?
It’s hard to keep everything straight when your pro-choice, isnt it?
Amanda,
Thank you for your responses to my questions.
Midnite,
My condolenses on the loss of your family friend. Eric Rudolph is one person I feel should have gotten the death penalty as he is a deranged killer. He also bombed a gay bar as well as the Olympics. I don’t believe the Army of God hid him but rather he was a survivalist and lived in the wilderness a long time. Also, local people are believed to have kept quiet about his location. Sadly, some of the worst criminals have had their admirers.
I would like to restate a posting I put on another thread. Several years ago a news show had a debate about clinic violence. They got spokespersons from the pro-choice side and for the pro-life side, a self proclaimed “leader” of the pro-life cause who was obviously delusional and also spouting threats of violence. The National Right To Life Committee pleaded with the network to allow them to send a legitimate pro-life spokesperson. No one had ever heard of this “leader”, he did not represent the pro-life movement, and it was extremely dangerous to feed the sick fantasies of this delusional man with any kind of media attention. You wouldthink this danger alone would have made the network reconsider. No way. They were determined to prove their point, that pro-lifers support violence, and this “leader” was made to order.
This “leader”, Paul Hill, went on to gun down an abortion doctor. This may have happened no matter what, but in my opinion the network is not exonerrated. How ironic that it was pro-lifers who tried so hard to prevent the death of an abortion doctor, and the pro-choice MSM that may very well have contributed to his death.
Less,
Concerning my post about the plastic grenade. This is something any middle school child could have done. Your question as to who else would do it? Anyone for whatever stupid reason they want, especially when they know someone else is likely to be blamed.
Amanda, I looked up the article you talked about. I think you missed the point Jill was trying to make in the article. She was not advocating domestic abuse. In regards to the slap that occurs between the two main characters in the movie Jill said she understood why Michael would slap Kay – not that it was the right thing, not that she would do the same, just that she understood why he reacted the way he did.
“As I responded earlier, my point was if a man has just been told a woman has killed his child, I would not fault him for responding with a slap. I cannot think of a better reason for righteous indignation.
The “real man” comparison was to that of a coward or someone who would threaten to leave a woman if she doesn’t kill his baby.”
I don’t think Jill was trying to paint a negative picture of Sicilians or Italians or any other cultural group. She was saying that when an organization like the mafia that is generally thought of as “evil” and one of their leaders (yes fictional, but this is an illustration) reacts like that to abortion, what does that say about abortion?
The statement in quotes is from Jill, FYI.
They key there, SH, is that she wouldn’t fault the man. She wouldn’t condemn him for slapping his own wife. Violence such as this is never acceptable in a mature, healthy relationship, and the fact that Jill would associate it at all with anything positive is disgusting.
Well, I understand why Michael would hit Kay in this situation and I don’t blame him for doing so. I don’t think it is the right course of action, but I can’t blame him for it.
I agree with you that violence should never occur in a healthy relationship, but Kay herself preformed a hugely violent act when she killed their son, and she even states it was evil act. So if we were comparing violent acts, Kay is most definitely more at fault then Michael.
SH – I understand your interpretation, but I disagree. My boyfriend in college slammed me in to a wall and dislocated my shoulder because he was certain I cheated on him. Jill’s claiming that violence is acceptable in the case she mentioned is exactly the same as someone claiming that being cheated on is also a justifiable excuse to use violence. Who she was comparing a “real man” to is irrelevent. The fact is, a real man would never hit a woman for ANY reason. Punch a wall, slam a door, yell and scream – sure. But hit? There is NEVER a reason to sympathize or “understand” domestic abuse.
I must agree with Amanda on this one.
Amanda: “I believe anyone who advocates physical violence for ANY reason – whether it be abortion (pro life or pro choice)”
Amanda, it’s good to see that your pro-life now!
Jill, we have another pro-lifer!
Thats great Amanda!
Midnite – Yeah I’ve read some of his other threads. He’ll have a hard time irritating me – I find people like him sort of amusing, in a sad way.
The thing is he claims other people are immature when this is all he does. Ironic? Just a tid bit!
Another ditto for Amanda. Saying that the woman was somehow at fault for her husband’s actions takes the blame away from the abuser, where it belongs.
I’m continually amazed that anyone can look at those pics and defend what has gone on.
Amanda: “I believe anyone who advocates physical violence for ANY reason – whether it be abortion (pro life or pro choice), animal rights, politics, you name it , is an extremist.”
Amanda, what finally made you switch to pro-life?
Midnight – if he isn’t embarassed by his behavior when people like SH, Mary, Heather, and others carry on respectful conversations and actually facilitate communication are posting in the same threads, I doubt he gets how ironic it is that he handles himself in this manner.
“Jill’s claiming that violence is acceptable in the case she mentioned is exactly the same as someone claiming that being cheated on is also a justifiable excuse to use violence.”
Jill never said this was an acceptable reaction to Kay’s news
Luv:
I did not post that website for the pictures, please dont think that is why I posted it. Look at the literature (Rudolph’s to be exact), and then tell me what you think about it.
Midnite:
Wow, I checked out those abortion photos from the link that you posted, God – how cruel. I’m glad your finally seeing the evil in abortion.
Thanks again for exposing the awful killing thats going on.
Jasper,
Those pictures is not why I shared that link. Why don’t you EDUCATE yourself and read what Eric Robert Rudolph wrote about the abortion clinic bombing he did in B’ham, Ala.
I am warning you NOT TO TWIST my words on this.
Hi Midnite,
I didn’t see any Eric? But I did see those photos, god awful!. I did see Margaret Sanger though on that site, she’s pretty evil herself, starting PP and all(wanting to destroy black babies). Again, thanks for the Photos…
Midnite,
Two of your posts as to how Rudolph can still spew his deranged ramblings and harass his victims illustrate so well why I support the death penalty. These were points I made on the thread where the death penalty was debated. I have read several accounts where the survivors of the victims, and surviving victims, have had to endure this kind of harassment and in some cases the glorification of the criminal.
My heart goes out to you that your loss is compounded in this way.
Midnite, several girls from my town were injured in the Olympic Park bombing. Actually, one of them was featured about 7000 times because she told the photographers to get out of her face.
So the whole thing hit pretty close to home for me too. But the fact is, no one in the main stream pro-life movement supports the bombers.
Thank you Mary for understanding that.
Now Japer, you must look past the darn photos and click on his name, you nut. Here is the link that goes directly to where he talks about the B’ham bombing he did. Please EDUVATE yourself before you come back to talk to me about it. And you know good and well I didnt post that site for its photography.
Here you idiot:
http://www.armyofgod.com/EricRudolphHomepage.html
Click on any of them and READ
Okay, I’ve just about had it. I’m pretty near ready to snap…the kid gloves are coming off:
Jasper, you are a JERK. You are being incredibly disrespectful towards midnite while she is being quite courteous to you (though you sure as Hades don’t deserve it). Get over yourself and your ridiculous little word games. I for one am sick of having you twist the words of my friends to make them look bad and to make yourself seem so “high” and “mighty” and “noble”. You are nothing more than a misogynistic coward hiding behind his computer and his religion to say horrible things to people in teh defense of “TEH FETUSES!”
I had to get this out, Jasper, as you’ve been DRIVING ME NUTS for weeks now and I’m sick of being polite and respectful to somebody who refuses to extend the same courtesy to others.
Wow, Rae.
Thanks Rae, I appreciate it. Seriously
“This piece angered Italian Americans for her gross use of stereotypes, and it also angered many pro lifers who were upset by her promotion of domestic abuse. She even argued with one pro lifer by saying that “one slap does not domestic violence make”. The pro lifer replied by asking her how many slaps does it take then? Jill never responded.”
Actually, that was me. And I’m still waiting for an answer.
Damn it. I was getting so good at staying offline.
Rae, Midnite,
I love ya. Now, you see how I feel when you deny facts or won’t answer questions. It’s fustrating, isn’t it.
@Jasper: I don’t deny facts…but I deny lies, which you seem to have an unending pile of. I do answer your questions as well, unrealistic and pointless as they are.
Yes Rae, but midnite doesnt.
Jasper I have answered all of your questions, it’s not my fault if you choose not to read what I wrote or you cant comprehend it.
@Jasper: Who cares? That doesn’t give you the right to mock her and be condescending towards you. Why should she answer your question? You would dismiss her and/or misquote her and make her appear to be an evil, despicable woman who is being “puppeted by SATAN!” I only answered you because you wouldn’t let it go if I didn’t.
I read about Eric Rudolf, and while I strongly disagree with what he did and think it’s very bad and would never do something like this myself, I have to say I do not want the government taking away his freedom of choice. I may not agree with what he did, but that’s his own personal choice.
So, I’m pro-choice on this one…
@Jasper: You are so clever, and good job, I think you probably just insulted Midnite the best way you could. I hope you are proud of yourself (though I hope you aren’t because “pride” is a deadly sin).
You know something Jasper, I feel very sorry for your family and children. I would hate to have to grow up with a father figure like you.
And karma will come back and bite you in the arse for that one day. And I hope I am around to laugh in your face for it.
EVERYONE JASPER AGREES WITH ABORTION BOMBINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!EVERYONE JASPER AGREES WITH ABORTION BOMBINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!EVERYONE JASPER AGREES WITH ABORTION BOMBINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!EVERYONE JASPER AGREES WITH ABORTION BOMBINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!EVERYONE JASPER AGREES WITH ABORTION BOMBINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Rae,
I didn’t mean to insult anyone, I’m just for freedom of choice, who am I to force my beliefs on somebody else? Now, you can insult me however you want, call me evil, a witch, whatever suits you. I’m really not convinced what a life is, or where it’s starts, end’s. Until somebody provides me evidence, I’m going to stick with my beliefs. And Rae, please stop being so darn judgemental!
JASPER AGREES WITH ABORTION BOMBINGS!!!
Midnite,
Like I said, I personally DO NOT agree with this. Please don’t twist my words!!
@Jasper: What goes around comes around. I suppose you’ve been ignoring the fact that Midnite personally knew somebody who was killed by Rudolph so to cleverly “apply” the pro-choice thought process to what he did can seem insulting. I mean really, what Rudolph did is not like abortion, as Rudolph murdered born people, abortion kills fetuses. Big difference there (however I know you disagree). I’m not going to insult you anymore, I already did that today, and quite frankly my frustration has passed since doing so.
And where was I being judgmental? I only warned you to watch out for your ego/pride as I don’t want you to “go to hell” for committing one of those silly ol’ deadly sins and all.
“Please don’t twist my words!!”
@Jasper: Now I dare say, this is very ironic coming from you, the master of word manipulation.
Midnite, Rae,
First, Midnite, I’m very sorry for your Friend/Uncle that got killed. Of course I think clinic bombings should be illegal and Rudolf should spend his life behind bars…… I was trying to make a point here. See, it goes both ways, YOU two think aborting a 39 week old unborn baby should be legal, and that comes off very disturbing to me, just as my fake view up above was disturbing to you. Notice how you reacted to my fake view. We’ll I believe unborn babies are human and alive, and killing them is murder.
@Jasper: I too believe that they are human and alive, what else are they, fish?
And to be frank, I don’t think it should be legal to abort a 39 week old. I only said that because I figured that is what you would expect a “pro-abort” to say.
I have said it before when I was talking to Jill and MK (and yes, they do disagree with me…que sopresa, ne?) that I am personally against abortions beyond 12 weeks and I am definitely against abortions past viability. Sure, I recognize viability gets earlier and earlier as medical science and technology improves and that’s fine with me. To me, there is a *big* difference between a 12 week old fetus and a 39 week old fetus, the ability to live independently of the mother being the biggest.
The reason I think that abortion should be reduced (but not by illegalizing it, but instead by reducing the NEED of abortions) because it is killing a life (as a fetus/baby is biologically alive). It is the killing of a human life and I know that. HOWEVER, I also think that forcing a woman to remain pregnant when she doesn’t want to be pregnant to be just as bad as killing a pre-born baby/fetus. So if there was a way for babies/fetuses/embryos to be removed from the womb of the mother who does not want to be pregnant and to place it in an artificial womb so it doesn’t die and continue development until it’s ready to be “born”, then that is fine by me. I would support that whole-heartedly.
I also think that people ALSO need to learn to take responsibility for their actions and I WISH that people would not just flippantly make decisions about birth control and subsequent actions if said BC fails. I am not saying that all people who get abortions are irresponsible, but I do recognize that there are some cases where in fact the people who get abortions are being irresponsible (like thinking not using protection just that one time would be ok and they wouldn’t get pregnant but they do anyway). I don’t know whether that is due to improper education or just sheer recklessness but I do realize that it happens and I don’t agree with it. I do recognize that people should accept the consequences.
I wish that abortion would only be used as a VERY LAST RESORT (mother’s health and by health I mean stuff like cancer, not “the blues”; fatal fetal abnormality etc), and I fully support it in the event of rape (I don’t care that the fetus/baby is “innocent” of the crime, for some women it is just horribly traumatic to realize they are carrying their rapist’s baby and they should be allowed an abortion until the day comes when there are artificial wombs to “incubate” these fetii/babies to term).
Blah, I know most of you will find this “convoluted” or “full of crap”, but that is my reasoning and if you have any questions that I have not exactly fleshed out here, please feel free to ask.
And by the way Jasper, I wasn’t disturbed so much as annoyed, because I knew exactly what you were doing.
I’m curious where you stand on the death penalty Rae.
@Luvmy5kids: I think there are better ways of punishment than the death penalty. I think the death penalty is too easy for some of those criminals as they escape the years of internal torment brought upon by their own conscience (if they have one). I think instead of killing criminals they be locked up in solitary confinement for life with no communication with the outside world. No socialization. Just them alone in a room to think about what they did for the rest of their lives.
If that is considered “inhumane” or “cruel” then I say put them to work, make them do all the crappy, menial jobs that most people won’t do and don’t compensate them for it. If they’re going to be wards of the state for the rest of their lives, they may as well be useful to society instead of a burden.
Rae, I find your stance more honest than most here. Of course I disagree about the viability being important, but I am thankful to know that there are some abortions that you consider off limits or wrong.
I agree with bethany however it is frustrating to hear this…
“It is the killing of a human life and I know that. HOWEVER, I also think that forcing a woman to remain pregnant when she doesn’t want to be pregnant to be just as bad as killing a pre-born baby/fetus”
If a bad choice was made, or recklessness, or whatever, however a woman got pregnant, can she not give up a mere 9 months of her life to save a LIFE!
Rae and midnite, I must say that I really do like both of you. I am NOT some holy roller, but I feel that the 2 of you are NOT staunch “Choice” supporters. Rae, at least you admit that aborted children are human. Believe it or not, some don’t! midnite, you had a horrific experience with an abortion clinic bomber {I do remember hearing about this on the news] However, you are trying to see that all pro lifers are not bad. We are just sickened by abortion. I give you credit. I don’t feel that any of us would condone this. I know that jasper is not condoning this. For that matter, you guys have a few nut jobs on your side.-SOMG/aka Dr. Defense. This screen troll is divulging the whereabouts of Paul Hill’s family. That is totally unfair. Could I ever ask either one of you to shut this nut up? I cannot. It is not your responsibility. The abortion clinic bomber is not MY responsibility. We cannot control any body’s behavior except out own.
I completely agree, luvmykids…I’ve just heard it so often I kind of forgot to respond to it.
lol
Plus I already know the next thing you’re going to hear it “But what about rape?”
and then we have to go through the whole circular argument again…and for some reason, no one seems to recognize that unborn babies don’t lose or gain their value based on how they were conceived.
Good points, Heather!
I meant our own [see above] jasper can’t control an abortion clinic bombing anymore than I can. If someone is planning on doing it, they will do it. If SOMG is planning a “hit” on Paul Hill’s family, can the 2 of you stop him?….. I seriously doubt it!!!! Heck, I can’t. I’m rather glad that this dumb dumb came along and commented when he did. It proves that both sides have unstable people!!!! Thank you Dr. Defense aka SOMG. Thank you for making your side look BAD!!!!!
“If a bad choice was made, or recklessness, or whatever, however a woman got pregnant, can she not give up a mere 9 months of her life to save a LIFE!”
@Luvmy5kids: I agree, bad choices and recklessness for me aren’t good reasons for abortions. On the other hand, if people are genuinely trying to PREVENT getting pregnant via tubal ligation or vasectomies and/or proper and consistent use of birth control pills and condoms and they *still* get pregnant (besides being a miracle…) I would have *less* of a problem with that couple choosing abortion (I probably wouldn’t be thrilled that they were choosing to do so, but I wouldn’t feel as annoyed/pissed off as I would if they were two idiots who figured that protection wasn’t needed as it was the “first time” and they can’t get pregnant on the first time).
“and for some reason, no one seems to recognize that unborn babies don’t lose or gain their value based on how they were conceived. ”
@Bethany: As I’ve said, I don’t care about the innocence of the unborn baby in the case of rape, there are honest-to-God some women who just can’t bear the thought of carrying their rapist’s child to term and it would be cruel to force them to do so. I also recognize there are women who choose to keep the pregnancy and put the child up for adoption and that’s fantastic, but it was their decision.
Rae: “The reason I think that abortion should be reduced”
Rae: “I wish that abortion would only be used as a VERY LAST RESORT”
You see Rae, if I substitued “clinic bombing” for “abortion” in the sentences above you be trashing me like you did upthread. You see how cruel that sounds to us pro-lifers.
Just the other day you said that aborting a unborn baby who was halfway out of the womb should be legal, now your down to 12 weeks. I think that’s good, your moving in the right direction.
@Jasper: When I said the whole “aborting an unborn baby halfway out of the womb” was fine with me, I was just saying what you wanted to hear from a “pro-abort”. I didn’t agree with it. I’ve never really been a fan of abortion beyond 12 weeks. So no, I’m still in the spot I always was.
And the whole “substituting ‘clinic bombing’ for ‘abortion'” doesn’t work as they aren’t the same. Sorry, but it’s true, they aren’t, no matter how much you magically think they are.
“And the whole “substituting ‘clinic bombing’ for ‘abortion'” doesn’t work as they aren’t the same”
do they both involve killing?
@Jasper: Yes. But one is illegal, the other is not. One is murder, the other is not. One requires malicious intent, the other does not.
“But one is illegal, the other is not.”
Oh I see, that makes it OK.
“One is murder, the other is not.”
def: murder #2:->To kill brutally or inhumanly.
“One requires malicious intent, the other does not.”
No, there’s no bad intentions here. “now just hold still little baby, while a rip your arms and legs off”
@Bethany: As I’ve said, I don’t care about the innocence of the unborn baby in the case of rape, there are honest-to-God some women who just can’t bear the thought of carrying their rapist’s child to term and it would be cruel to force them to do so. I also recognize there are women who choose to keep the pregnancy and put the child up for adoption and that’s fantastic, but it was their decision.
Why is it not crueller to kill a baby? Don’t you think it is cruel to have a woman victimize another person simply because she was victimized herself? This doesn’t empower these women…it weakens them and it shows their rapist that they will not hold them accountable for their actions, and after something like this, the rapist will always have power over the woman for that reason. (this is why there are teenaged girls being sent to abortion clinics three times in 6 months- read this: “In one recent case, a New London, Conn., man was indicted in the sexual assault of a 14-year-old girl. A police investigation later revealed that the child was taken to the Planned Parenthood clinic in Norwich for abortions three times in six months, from April-September 2006.”)
A woman who carries the baby is saying to the rapist, I am stronger than you, I will not victimize another in the way that you victimized me.
Rae, I know you don’t like abortions after 12 weeks, but many women who are raped do not get abortions until after 16 weeks. Do you support abortions in this situation? And if so, what makes it different than a woman who was raped, killing her born baby when she realized that the baby reminded her of her rapist?
Would it be understandable in either case? Plausibly.
Would it be morally right? Never.
It is never right to victimize another human being because you were victimized. Two rights don’t make a wrong. This is precisely why it was wrong for Eric Rudolph to bomb the abortion clinics. It is wrong to personally victimize someone just because others have been victimized. That doesn’t justify it. Two wrongs just don’t make a right.
If you believe it’s wrong that a 12 week baby that is being aborted…then you should also agree that that baby has the same value whether he or she was conceived through love, through rape, through whatever. Does the child become less worthy of life because of the way he or she was conceived? Are you less worthy of life because of the way you were conceived? This is not right. We can’t say we place value on someone in one situation and not in another without lying to ourselves.
@Jasper: I am saying there IS a difference between the two. Bombing an abortion clinic is illegal, abortion isn’t.
There is a difference. Murder is a legal term used to define illegal killing (because I’m sure you know, not all killing is murder). So the fact that abortion is legal and bombing abortion clinics is not makes bombing abortion clinics murder and abortion not.
As for the last one, malicious intent means you want to cause somebody pain and death, which is precisely what an abortion clinic bomber wants, abortion on the other hand wants to “end the pregnancy” (yes, I realize that is “sugarcoating” it, but truly, that is what it’s about, it’s not about “killing babies” but instead it’s about “ending pregnancy), and unfortunately at this time, the only way to end a pregnancy is to kill the fetus/baby. The fact that the methods are rather…*ahem* “violent” makes it appear malicious but the mother doesn’t go in saying, “Rip this little fusker out and make it suffer as much as possible!” (Heather4Life, before you chime in, I know you had a friend who’s ex-wife called to tell him she got an abortion and that’s she’s “glad” she sucked the little “bastard” out, which is appalling to me, so don’t even go there). That, my friend is malicious intent.
I am willing to bet that on the whole, who go in for abortions are there just to end the pregnancy, not violently kill their fetus, the fact that it is killed (and in your opinion, in a violent, “malicious’ manner) is just due to the fact we don’t have the technology to remove the fetus from the womb alive and allow it to continue it’s development elsewhere.
Also, does the baby have more value when he/she is loved and wanted than when he/she is unloved and unwanted?
Do you place more value on the wanted born children in the USA, than the children who have parents who dislike them or hate them?
“end the pregnancy” (yes, I realize that is “sugarcoating” it, but truly, that is what it’s about, it’s not about “killing babies” but instead it’s about “ending pregnancy), and unfortunately at this time, the only way to end a pregnancy is to kill the fetus/baby.
But Rae, does that really sound right to you?
Rae: “As for the last one, malicious intent means you want to cause somebody pain and death, which is precisely what an abortion clinic bomber wants, abortion on the other hand wants to “end the pregnancy” (yes, I realize that is “sugarcoating” it, but truly, that is what it’s about, it’s not about “killing babies” but instead it’s about “ending pregnancy), and unfortunately at this time, the only way to end a pregnancy is to kill the fetus/baby. The fact that the methods are rather…*ahem* “violent” makes it appear malicious but the mother doesn’t go in saying, “Rip this little fusker out and make it suffer as much as possible!”
As for the last one, malicious intent means you want to cause somebody pain and death, which is precisely what an abortionist wants, Clinic Bombers on the other hand wants to “end the abortions” (yes, I realize that is “sugarcoating” it, but truly, that is what it’s about, it’s not about “bombing clinics” but instead it’s about “ending abortion”), and unfortunately at this time, the only way to end abortions is to kill the clinic workers. The fact that the methods are rather…*ahem* “violent” makes it appear malicious but the clinic bomber doesn’t go in saying, “bomb them out and make them suffer as much as possible!”
@Jasper: You are so clever. You know what? I give up. I tried to be honest and try to explain my views, but obviously, you’d prefer to make me feel just god-awful about what I think to be right. You aren’t changing my mind by changing my words to fit what you want. So you know what? Whatever, you win. I am a horrible baby-killing witch. Happy?
@Bethany: I think it’s unfortunate that that is in fact the case. I really do wish it wasn’t. It’s not right, but not wrong either.
@Bethany: I think it’s unfortunate that that is in fact the case. I really do wish it wasn’t. It’s not right, but not wrong either.
If it’s not right, but it’s not wrong, what is it?
“Whatever, you win. I am a horrible baby-killing witch. Happy?”
No Rae, I don’t think that of you!
But, I just want you to see how that sounds…
@Bethany: It’s a sticky situation, that’s what, and to be honest, I can’t describe what it is. On one hand, part of me is saying, it’s wrong to kill the baby as it is a human life, but the other part of me is telling me it’s wrong to force a woman to stay pregnant. That’s the problem I have, allowing a woman to maintain her autonomy, but in order to do that the baby has to die, or allowing the baby to live and then removing the woman’s autonomy over her body.
@Jasper: See how what sounds?
I read about Eric Rudolf, and while I strongly disagree with what he did and think it’s very bad and would never do something like this myself, I have to say I do not want the government taking away his freedom of choice. I may not agree with what he did, but that’s his own personal choice.
So, I’m pro-choice on this one…
Okay, Jasper, I get the whole parody on the “I would never have an abortion myself, but…” attitude. But Im not understanding why you would say, sarcastically or otherwise, that you think the government should allow the freedom of choice to kill adults at will when you know that this will only be used to further dehumanize the stereotypical pro-life advocate.
Rae, to see how I can just substitue the clinic bomber for the abortionist or clinic worker for baby, etc.
I want to make it clear that I not making lite of clinic bombings, they are terribly wrong and horrible.
But it so easy to draw analogies because both involve killing.
No Jasper it is not easy to draw analogies to abortion clinic bombings. Samantha T. has got the right attitude on them. Those crazy nuts make your side look bad and gives a sterotype.
That is not something to joke about either Jasper. Do I joke about abortions with you? No, b/c unlike you I have respect for the living, even if that includes you.
“But Im not understanding why you would say, sarcastically or otherwise, that you think the government should allow the freedom of choice to kill adults at will when you know that this will only be used to further dehumanize the stereotypical pro-life advocate.”
what do mean by “further” dehumanize, how are stereotypical pro-life advocates dehuman?
No, I didn’t press charges.
I’ve had a rough day, I moved out of my dorm today and said goodbye to the most wonderful man I’ve ever met. I’m going to be on the road for abother 24 hours or so, so I’ll talk to you guys later.
@Bethany: It’s a sticky situation, that’s what, and to be honest, I can’t describe what it is. On one hand, part of me is saying, it’s wrong to kill the baby as it is a human life, but the other part of me is telling me it’s wrong to force a woman to stay pregnant. That’s the problem I have, allowing a woman to maintain her autonomy, but in order to do that the baby has to die, or allowing the baby to live and then removing the woman’s autonomy over her body.
Aren’t we also removing the child’s autonomy by performing abortions on them?
If you put the two situations together, and weigh them carefully, you have:
1.) A woman, who may not have done anything wrong, temporarily has to remain pregnant. She can choose to keep the baby, or adopt the baby out ( I realize neither is a piece of cake).
2.) A child who did not do anything wrong, has to be killed, and loses all rights, including his or her right to bodily autonomy. Not only does he or she have to suffer inconvenience, but death.
Which is worse? This is how I look at it. Which right should supercede the other? Why should convenience be more important than life, especially when in the vast majority of cases, the baby was brought about by the willful actions of the mother?
Another thought…
Since you do not approve of abortions that are done out of irresponsibility, would you be willing to take a stand against soley those abortions?
“That is not something to joke about either Jasper. Do I joke about abortions with you? No, b/c unlike you I have respect for the living, even if that includes you.”
First of all Midnite, I was trying to make a point, no joking, as I said, I’m very sorry for your friend/uncle. I didn’t mean to offend you, I like you.
No, you don’t joke about abortions but I believe you said they should be legal until the 39th week.(at least you didn’t say they should not be legal when I asked you the other day). Now, I find that very cruel, hurtful, and yes, murder.
I’m sorry, Erin.
Jasper,
Midnite doesn’t answer your questions for a reason. You have a tendency to twist whatever anyone says.
Jasper,
Let me try and explain this to you one more time. Do I have a problem with abortions? Yes and no. Would I have one, no. Do I think a 39 week abortion should be done, not not unless the mother’s life is at risk or there is something terminally wrong with the baby. Can I force my opinions on anyone, no. Do I have a problem with first trimester abortions, no. Second trimester, sort of. Third trimester, see above. I agree with Rae on her stance on abortion completely. Although, I start to have an issue with it after the 22nd week or so, not 12 (where we differ on opinions). I have a HUGE problem with women who think of abortions as “birth control” and keep repeating the procedure.
HeatherB has a point, most of the time I dont answer you b/c you ask unrealistic sill questions, and if I do answer them you twist my words around, like you did with my Rudolph/bombing post. You know good and well I didnt post the “army of god” website for it’s lovely photograpy. You’re were being a pompous jerk and you know it. Never mind my feelings on the issue or that it makes me cryb uncontrolably. You DIDNT care.
I am a living human being and I deserve some respect from you. Have I ever joked about abortions on here, talking about how I love them and blah blah blah. NO. B/c first, I dont feel that way about them and second, it shows no respect for the other people on this site. I dont want to hurt anyone’s feelings and I expect the same curtesy from you.
You’re post just proved to me that you have no respect for the living beings on this planet. You only have respect for the unborn, and that just sucks for you.
@Bethany: You do have a point, though I disagree. I don’t think a fetus/unborn baby has autonomy as it is completely dependent on the mother for it’s needs until viability (which is why I become pretty much dead-set against abortions beyond that unless the mother’s health is severely at risk (meaning cancer or something else equally potentially fatal, not “the blues), or the fetus is fatally deformed. This is because at viability a fetus/unborn baby can live without solely depending on the mother’s body to survive (yes, I know a baby isn’t fully independent after birth, it still needs to be taken care of, however it can be taken care of by somebody else if the mother no longer wishes to). So I don’t see a fetus/unborn baby having autonomy until then.
As for taking a stand against abortions due to irresponsibility…I think that we should instead attack the irresponsibility part. If we start teaching/encouraging sexual responsibility and accepting potential consequences of sex this could lower the number of abortions due to things like, “Whoops! I forgot to take my pill this morning! Oh well!” I think if you look at the Double Dutch program in the Netherlands, they teach responsibility and accepting the consequences of irresponsibility in addition to the proper use of birth control and what have you. They treat abortion as irresponsible and shameful because you were too stupid/lazy to take responsibility for your actions. I think this contributes to the fact that the Dutch have lower abortion rates than the United States despite it’s lax laws as well as the higher average age in which people lose their virginity (I think it’s closer to 16, where as in the US it’s 14).
what do mean by “further” dehumanize, how are stereotypical pro-life advocates dehuman?
Well, stereotypical pro-life advocates are viewed by the average pro-choice advocate as inhumane because, as you have successfully done with Midnite, they tend to drone on and on about how horrible abortion is while disregarding the feelings of the already-birthed people walking around on the planet. I honestly feel that people who are truly pro-life and who really want to change the abortion scene would be trying to learn from each other, from women who have been in abortive situations, and taking measures to correct the problems that lead to abortion rather than personally attacking other people for their beliefs.
Ok OK, I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings.
you said: “I have a HUGE problem with women who think of abortions as “birth control” and keep repeating the procedure.”
why, as long as there done before 22 weeks, you said this was OK. So why do have a problem with women using it as birth control.
@SamanthaT: RAmen, sistah, RAmen. :D
Jasper supports the right to choose to commit murder!!!
JILL ISNT THIS GREAT?!??!!
We’ve converted one of your pro lifers!?!?!
“Well, stereotypical pro-life advocates are viewed by the average pro-choice advocate as inhumane because, as you have successfully done with Midnite, they tend to drone on and on about how horrible abortion is while disregarding the feelings of the already-birthed people walking around on the planet.”
I don’t could give a sh** about what the pro-choice advocate thinks, they could care less about the feelings of the unborn.
“I honestly feel that people who are truly pro-life and who really want to change the abortion scene would be trying to learn from each other, from women who have been in abortive situations, and taking measures to correct the problems that lead to abortion rather than personally attacking other people for their beliefs.”
I guess you haven’t been reading the thread, I didn’t attack anybody for their beliefs or call anybody names. here’s what I’ve been called:
jerk
misogynist
idiot
coward
nut
.. and accused of agreeing with abortion clinic bombings when I said no such thing, even when I was drawing analogies.
and as far as taking measures to correct the problem. Yes, like abstinance, support of Pregnancy care centers, supporting single mothers. My church donates and helps out, gives money on a weekly basis to all of these causes. So please don’t lecture me.
beautifullly put Samantha. =)
Amanda,
I glad you think that abortion is killing lives. Your making progress. Good for you.
“. and accused of agreeing with abortion clinic bombings when I said no such thing, even when I was drawing analogies.”
Oh – you mean you dont like having your words twisted in to something you never said in some pathetic attempt to be ironic?
…. interesting.
“I glad you think that abortion is killing lives”
Hahaha – and what did I think it was before, planting trees?
You see Jasper, the way you twisted my words is why I ignore you and dont answer you. You can not (or refuse not, I am not sure which one) have an ADULT CIVIL conversation. You twist people’s words around.
Thus I am going back to ignoring you.
Everyone else: Carry on
Midnite,
Please don’t slander me again, I notice you posted this on multiple threads.
“JASPER AGREES WITH ABORTION BOMBINGS!!!
awww midnite – you hurted his feeewings!!
who needs a tissue?
Oh, you dont like it when people twist your words around Jasper? So sorry. Dont do it to other people then.
ROFL Amanda… Thank you for that my dear.
CATURDAY YET?
I don’t twist your words around, I just ask you simple questions that you can’t seen to answer, because you, like most “pro choicers” can’t get your story straight. Like the question I just asked you:
you said: “I have a HUGE problem with women who think of abortions as “birth control” and keep repeating the procedure.”
why, as long as there done before 22 weeks, you said this was OK. So why do have a problem with women using it as birth control.
yes, another simple question gone un-answered, another twisting of the words by jasper. Don’t worry, I know it’s awful difficult to defend murder.
Holy fritz Jasper, just because she hasn’t come back to answer your question doesn’t mean she can’t. Perhaps she left to go to sleep? Or to go shower?
I’ve answered your questions, quit being annoying.
I just got back from my first scuba dive of the season and this thread has certainly gotten active. You’ve definitely kept things lively while I spent a few hours 30 feet under the inviting waters of Lake Michigan. Good nite everyone, I’m beat.
Mary, I hope you had a good time! The wildest thing I have ever done was fly a Cessna. Erin, where did you move? Are you going to school? I mean, why are you and Dan apart?
Here is my final say on abortion clinic bombings/violence. Of course abortion clinic violence should never be tolerated! Abortion should be abolished forever. I would love to see it become a felony. Killing babies is wrong. Just because it’s legal, doesn’t make it moral! It is a very violent act against an unborn child. The abortion clinic bomber has no right to kill people. The dirt bag abortionist has no right to kill children. The mother should never be allowed to let someone kill her child. Both acts are murder….The End.
Amanda, midnite, less, etc.: Re: your complaints to jasper that he twists your words, he does not. What he’s doing is called reflective listening. Look it up. You hear what someone says and you rephrase or “reflect” the statement back to the person to 1) acknowledge you heard the person; and 2) have the other person hear him/herself.
In his 10:55p post to Midnite last night, Jasper first explained the principle of reflective listening then demonstrated it:
“I don’t twist your words around, I just ask you simple questions that you can’t seen to answer, because you, like most ‘pro choicers’ can’t get your story straight. Like the question I just asked you:
you said: ‘I have a HUGE problem with women who think of abortions as “birth control” and keep repeating the procedure.’
why, as long as there done before 22 weeks, you said this was OK. So why do have a problem with women using it as birth control.”
Midnite, Amanda, less, all, when you whine about Jasper twisting your words, you whine at your own twisted reasoning. How many years have you spouted mindless pro-“choice” cliches to one another without thinking them through?
If you’re going to take the pro-abortion position, which is literally a matter of life and death, you’d best have thought it through completely yourself and then be able to defend it ably.
As for taking a stand against abortions due to irresponsibility…I think that we should instead attack the irresponsibility part. If we start teaching/encouraging sexual responsibility and accepting potential consequences of sex this could lower the number of abortions due to things like, “Whoops! I forgot to take my pill this morning! Oh well!” I think if you look at the Double Dutch program in the Netherlands, they teach responsibility and accepting the consequences of irresponsibility in addition to the proper use of birth control and what have you. They treat abortion as irresponsible and shameful because you were too stupid/lazy to take responsibility for your actions. I think this contributes to the fact that the Dutch have lower abortion rates than the United States despite it’s lax laws as well as the higher average age in which people lose their virginity (I think it’s closer to 16, where as in the US it’s 14).
Actually, Rae, that would be quite an improvement on the sex ed that’s being done now… I would love to see changes like this implemented in the sex education that is being taught today by Planned Parenthood…..but unfortunately I think that Planned Parenthood would shun this type of thinking due to their taught philosophy that there is no possible scenario in which having sex could be considered irresponsible.
I believe that Planned Parenthood has a huge interest in keeping children sexually active, because if they didn’t keep them sexually active, the STD rates would drop, and they wouldn’t have to do so much testing…and the unplanned pregnancy rate would drop…less abortions for them to make money with…and the birth control and condom use rate would drop dramatically as well…and I read somewhere that they get about 15 dollars of pure profit for each pack of birth control pills.
I don’t think Planned Parenthood will be the one to adopt this type of program, but perhaps some other organization will start something like this, and I would be much happier to support that than Planned Parenthood’s methods. Do you have any organizations in mind?
Jill, good point….the questions in this topic by Jasper have not been twisting anything, from what I can tell. I think the part that makes it annoying to the pro-choicers here is the fact that these questions are extremely difficult for a pro-choicer to explain, and they usually avoid these particular questions at all costs…also, most people are not as willing to continue asking them. I think it is the persistence, his unwillingness to let the subject drop, that they dislike. I honestly keep hoping that any of them will answer his questions. Rae did answer, but the question was originally directed at Midnite…Midnite keeps saying how much she hates abortions but won’t really explain why she hates them. I hate breast implants, and wouldn’t force anyone not to do them, and I can explain exactly why I dislike breast implants. Why is it that these who support abortion but say they wouldn’t do it personally, and even hate it, won’t just let us in on what’s so bad about abortion for themselves? What is this mysterious taboo?
It’s really not a tough question, but I think that they know what answering honestly would lead to, and this is precisely why the avoid answering the tough questions.
Jill,
I figured you’d take his side. And yes I know what reflective listening is. And yes I can defend my position, not my fault if Jasper cant understnad what I am talking about.
But if I had made any of his comments about abortion clinic bombings and it was a close friend of Jasper’s that had died, you would have rushed to his defense yesterday afternoon when it happened and would have benned the person who had said it. It’s not fair, and you know it.
I always answer his stupid,unrealistic silly questions b.c if I dont, he’ll drive you up the darn wall. I just find it so ironic that people like Bethany, Heather, SH, Mary can understand where I am comming from, understand my position and not TWIST my words around. Hell, even Samamntha T was appaled by what your sweet dear Jasper said to me. JILL OPEN YOU EYES. And just for once realize what he did/said is wrong. It will liberate you.
Did I miss something, Midnite? Did Jasper say something about a friend of yours?
I read about Eric Rudolf, and while I strongly disagree with what he did and think it’s very bad and would never do something like this myself, I have to say I do not want the government taking away his freedom of choice. I may not agree with what he did, but that’s his own personal choice.
So, I’m pro-choice on this one…
Bethany, this is what he said to me: But he didnt mean it, he was drawing an analogy for me. But the police officer that was murdered by Rudoloph was a very close friend of mu family, and Jasper knew that and still thought it would be soo much fun to say that to me.
Okay I looked up and here is what I found:
“Midnite, Rae,
First, Midnite, I’m very sorry for your Friend/Uncle that got killed. Of course I think clinic bombings should be illegal and Rudolf should spend his life behind bars…… I was trying to make a point here. See, it goes both ways, YOU two think aborting a 39 week old unborn baby should be legal, and that comes off very disturbing to me, just as my fake view up above was disturbing to you. Notice how you reacted to my fake view. We’ll I believe unborn babies are human and alive, and killing them is murder.
First of all Midnite, I was trying to make a point, no joking, as I said, I’m very sorry for your friend/uncle. I didn’t mean to offend you, I like you.”
Midnite, I don’t think you understand what Jasper was trying to say to you. I don’t think he ever condoned what happened to your uncle at all. I think he was trying to get you to see how seriously we look at the death of innocent babies, just as you look at the death of your innocent uncle. It hurts us terribly to think of innocent babies being killed, and I think he was wanting you to understand why we feel that way. He was not in any way trying to hurt you or tell you your uncle deserved to die, or make fun or light of your uncle’s situation.
Every single one of us on this site who is pro-life (as far as I know) think that Eric Rudolph was completely in the wrong, and he is deceiving himself when he calls himself pro-life.
Pro-life people do not have such disregard for human life, they simply don’t.
By the way, I am curious…your uncle’s death, is this what got your first involved in abortion activism?
I am very sorry for your loss.
Okay I posted while you did. I can definitely see why this would have hurt you and offended you so strongly,…
I genuinely believe that was not Jasper’s intent. He can correct me if I’m wrong. I do not believe that he meant to make light of your uncle’s tragic death, even though I can definitely see how you saw it that way.
Yes mamit is.
I have explained that I would never personally have an abortion (unles I was raped or my life was in danger, i.e. cancer, not something trivial like depression). I have always thought that. I just stayed out of the debates or politics Then the abortion clinic bombing happened, and the whole city of Birmingham was in chaos for about three days trying to figure out what happened and why. Then my mother had to sit me down at 13/14 and explain to me about a crazy pro-lifer named Eric Robert Rudolph. I was appaled that someone who cares so much for the unborn babies in the world could have such no value for human life that is already here.
Sandy worked at that clinic not b/c he was pro-choice (he was actually pro-life), but there had been previous threats to the clinic and staff. He thought it was his moral obligation to protect people going there, even if he didnt agree with what went on. I will never forget what happened to hi9m, or that there are crazy pro-lifers out there (Army of God) who think violence is the way to solve abortions. I stated earlier that I dont think anyone on this site would ever do something like. I like you, Mary, SH, Heather4life & HisMam has been quite respectful lately. Y’all have helped me re-evaluate my stance on abortions, and think outside the box.
This all started b/c SH wanted some examples of clinic violence. I linked the Justic Departments page on what Rudolph did and then the Army of God website. Rudolph gets to write his filty propoganda from jail and torment the family of his victims (talking about how God told him to kill that cop in B’ham was ok). This website posts his “thoughts” on the matter for the public to see. And Jasper thought it would be cute to say “Midnite, your finally seeing the evil of abortions, thanks for the pictures”. He knew I did not put that site up for it’s lovely photography. And then went on to say he was pro choice on bomings, b/c the Government shouldntbe able to take away someone’s right to choose (i.e. choose to bomb a clinic). I find that to be very disrespectful when he had to have seen that I lost a close family friend in that bombing. But did he care, no, he said it anyway.
I dont joke about abortions on here and say silly thihngs like, oh I’ve had nine, I love them, blah blah blah, b/c unlike Jasper, I have respect for people already born. I respect most of you one here, and I know that would hurt your feelings and plus its just plain rude and disrespectful to do something of that nature.
Jill, would’ve banned me if the tables had been reversed and I had said that Jasper, and he was the one that lost someone in the bombing.
Heather4life,
You flew a Cessna? I am impressed! Yes it was a good time. Great to be back underwater!
I actually dont think she would have, Midnite…have you seen some of the outrageous comments Cameron and SOMG and Doctordefense (a thoroughly disreputable character not to be confused with SOMG, of course) have been able to get away with saying?
A lot of those comments are very hurtful.
In fact, the statement that it’s okay under any circumstances to kill an unborn baby, even if it’s for reasons like deformity, are very hurtful as well, to us who value life in the womb, even if the posts regarding this subject not intended that way. For example, when people say that babies under 12 weeks aren’t important because they’re not viable, it is personally hurtful to me, because I feel that they are saying that my baby wasn’t worth a hill of beans. My baby was worth so much more than that. But I do understand that from their point of view, this is how they look at it, and it’s not a personal attack against me.
I think that intent has a lot to do with whether a post is viscious or not. Jasper apologized to you twice for the way his post came across to you. I don’t think that if he had meant to hurt you, he would have apologized. Do you see what I’m saying? He realized that his post came across wrong, and once you had pointed that out to him, he immediately said he was sorry.
While I know that doesn’t erase the hurt feelings it may have caused you, there’s really not much else he can do. This is an emotionally charged debate, and we are coming across to each other as words on the screen. Sometimes it’s difficult to remember that we’re talking to people and not a computer. I think that sometimes in the midst of a heated battle sometimes we say things that can come across as saying something we definitely do not mean, and did not want to come across in such a manner.
okay I guess I’m rambling and not really saying a whole lot, but I hope you understand what I’m trying to say.
andy worked at that clinic not b/c he was pro-choice (he was actually pro-life), but there had been previous threats to the clinic and staff. He thought it was his moral obligation to protect people going there, even if he didnt agree with what went on. I will never forget what happened to hi9m, or that there are crazy pro-lifers out there (Army of God) who think violence is the way to solve abortions. I stated earlier that I dont think anyone on this site would ever do something like. I like you, Mary, SH, Heather4life & HisMam has been quite respectful lately. Y’all have helped me re-evaluate my stance on abortions, and think outside the box.
Have you ever considered, instead of looking to Rudolph as a standard of what pro-life means, perhaps you could look to your uncle as the standard for pro-life, and remember what a good man he was, and what he stood for. Think about this. He was pro-life, and he put his life down to support the right to life of abortion supporters and even the people who perform the abortions he was against. THIS is the definition of pro-life. Your uncle was a hero. Don’t ever forget that.
Midnite,
Its very easy to see where you are coming from on this issue, having lost someone so near and dear.
But I would ask too that you realize that Eric Rudolph was no “pro-lifer”, he was a lunatic. He bombed indiscriminately for his own sick reasons, the Olympics and the gay bar being examples. Deranged people like him, and he is deranged, will always find justification and “reasons” for their actions. We see this in the world around us on a daily basis.
Just as the actions of the KKK do not represent all white Americans, Al-Qaeda does not represent all American Muslims, Eric Rudolph does not represent pro-lifers. As for some turning him into a folk hero, there is a long history of this despicable type of thing in our country. Charles Manson is a hero to some people! Gangsters have long been romanticized, people cheered on OJ Simpson when he was fleeing police.
Why should anyone be surprised that Eric Rudolph is a hero to some?
Again, my condolences to you and your family for your loss.
Bethany & Mary-
Alot of people on this site (you two included) have helped me see that not everyone is like Rudolph (although at one time, I did think this), and I should thank you for that.
Midnite,
And I want to thank you for making my day.
I second that, group hug time.
:)
Bethany,
A very truthful and beautifully written tribute to a police officer who died in the line of duty.
Mary, some death row inmates even marry. Look at the Menendez brothers. There have been more than a few very attractive women in pursuit of Scott Peterson, Jeffery Dahmer and Richard Ramirez.Do women like this represent all females? That’s another way of looking at it.
HisMan, I thank you for bringing this to attention. I support all the troops fully (while I may not agree with the war, and we can agree to disagree on that). My beloved boyfriend is a Marine, having served over in Iraq and Africa several times. I love him and all the others in the military that put their lives on the line for a country that sometimes doesn’t appreciate their sacrifices. While I don’t agree with the reason for which they sacrifice, I still love, honor, and respect their decisions to do what their government asks of them for what it decides is for the good of the country. That said, I still want them home and safe, sound, and secure.
*Wipes tears from eyes*
Heather4life,
How true. Did you know that at the Bundy trial women admirers showed up with their dark hair parted down the middle, a trait most of his victims shared, hoping to attract his attention and affection? I mean how nuts are people? “My friend” the ex-con always said the same thing, that he could just not comprehend this. He said these guys usually have a large number of women who think they are the one and only who understand them.
Lyssie,
Thank you to your boyfriend and all the people who serve in the military. Thank you to you and all their families and loved ones as well.
Mary, I can believe it. Ted had a lot of admirers. Where there’s smoke, there’s fire. No matter how evil a deed a person commits, they will always have admiration of some sort. Susan Smith drown her 2 sons. She is currently serving a life sentence in a South Carolina prison with no chance for parole. I heard that she recently put out an add seeking male “friends.” The add only ran for a day or two, and Smith received over 600 responses from admiring men that wanted to be with her. I think the prison pulled the add. Who can explain the human mind?
@Bethany: I don’t think Planned Parenthood teaches or sponsors the sex education that occurs in schools, the government does (hence the reason that schools that don’t teach abstinence only often have to pay for those programs out of pocket…which is incredibly stupid). I haven’t finished my research on the Double Dutch campaign and how they taught responsibility (as responsibility cannot really be taught…), but from what I recall reading, pretty much what they more or less would state in various ads on billboards or TV or whatever was, “If you have sex be responsible and use BC and condoms, because if you don’t…you’re an idiot and we will all laugh at your irresponsibility” (I could be wrong, but that is what I got out of what I read).
Yes midnite, thanks for keeping an open mind. I am sorry about your uncle. That’s tragic!
Hi midnight, Jasper……… etc.,
Strange as this may sound I used precisely the same kind of logic as Jasper to begin my pro-life journey decades ago. And while it seems unfriendly, this form of argumentation makes closely held opinions up for glaring scrutiny. I think perhaps this is a male form of reasoning that may not appeal to many women. [I sure do appreciate this for me though!]
There is a problem with this form of argumentation though ….. it leaves the defender without any clothes (and no place to hide). This is why his words were thought to twist … and leave a person more dehumanized.
Got this e-mail yesterday: “What would you do?….you make the choice. Don’t look for a punch line, there isn’t one. Read it anyway. My question is: Would you have made the same choice?
At a fundraising dinner for a school that serves learning-disabled children, the father of one of the students delivered a speech that would never be forgotten by all who attended. After extolling the school and its dedicated staff, he offered a question: “When not interfered with by outside influences, everything nature does is done with
perfection. Yet my son, Shay, cannot learn things as other children do. He cannot understand things as other children do. Where is the natural order of things in my son?”
The audience was stilled by the query.
The father continued. “I believe, that when a child like Shay, physically and mentally handicapped comes into the world, an opportunity to realize true human nature presents itself, and it comes in the way other people treat that child.” Then he told the following story:
Shay and his father had walked past a park where some boys Shay knew were playing baseball. Shay asked, “Do you think they’ll let me play?” Shay’s father knew that most of the boys would not want someone like Shay on their team, but the father also understood that if his son were allowed to play, it would give him a much-needed sense of belonging and some confidence to be accepted by others in spite of his handicaps.
Shay’s father approached one of the boys on the field and asked (not expecting much) if Shay could play. The boy looked around for guidance and said, “We’re losing by six runs and the game is in the eighth inning. I guess he can be on our team and we’ll try to put him in to bat in the ninth inning.”
Shay struggled over to the team’s bench and, with a broad smile, put on a team shirt. His Father watched with a small tear in his eye and warmth in his heart. The boys saw the father’s joy at his son being accepted.
In the bottom of the eighth inning, Shay’s team scored a few runs but was still behind by three. In the top of the ninth inning, Shay put on a glove and played in the right field. Even though no hits came his way, he was obviously ecstatic just to be in the game and on the field, grinning from ear to ear as his father waved to him from the stands. In the bottom of the ninth inning, Shay’s team scored again. Now, with two outs and the bases loaded, the potential winning run was on base and Shay was scheduled to be next at bat.
At this juncture, do they let Shay bat and give away their chance to win the game? Surprisingly, Shay was given the bat. Everyone knew that a hit
was all but impossible because Shay didn’t even know how to hold the bat properly, much less connect with the ball.
However, as Shay stepped up to the plate, the pitcher, recognizing that the other team was putting winning aside for this moment in Shay’s life, moved in a few steps to lob the ball in softly so Shay could at least make contact. The
first pitch came and Shay swung clumsily and missed. The pitcher again took a few steps forward to toss the ball softly towards Shay.
As the pitch came in, Shay swung at the ball and hit a slow ground ball right back to the pitcher.
The game would now be over. The pitcher picked up the soft grounder and could have easily thrown the ball to the first baseman. Shay would have been out and that would have been the end of the game. Instead, the pitcher threw the ball right over the first baseman’s head, out of reach of all team mates. Everyone from the stands and both teams started yelling, “Shay, run to first! Run to first!” Never in his life had Shay ever run that far, but he made it to first base. He scampered
down the baseline, wide-eyed and startled. Everyone yelled, “Run to second, run to second!” Catching his breath, Shay awkwardly ran towards second, gleaming and struggling to make it to the base. By the time Shay rounded towards second base, the right fielder had the ball … the smallest guy on their team who now had his first chance to be the hero for his team. He could have
thrown the ball to the second-baseman for the tag, but he understood the pitcher’s intentions so he, too, intentionally threw the ball high and
far over the third-baseman’s head. Shay ran toward third base deliriously as the runners ahead of him circled the bases toward – home.
All were screaming, “Shay, Shay, Shay, all the Way Shay” Shay reached third base because the opposing shortstop ran to help him by turning him in the direction of third base, and shouted,
“Run to third! Shay, run to third!” As Shay rounded third, the boys from both teams, and the spectators, were on their feet screaming, “Shay, run home! Run home!” Shay ran to home, stepped on the plate, and was cheered as the hero who hit the grand slam and won the game for his team.
“That day”, said the father softly with tears now rolling down his face, “the boys from both teams helped bring a piece of true love and humanity into this world”.
Shay didn’t make it to another summer. He died that winter, having never forgotten being the hero and making his father so happy, and coming home
and seeing his Mother tearfully embrace her little hero of the day!
AND NOW A LITTLE FOOTNOTE TO THIS STORY: We all send thousands of jokes through the e-mail without a second thought, but when it comes to sending messages about life choices, people hesitate. The crude, vulgar, and often obscene pass freely through cyberspace, but public discussion about decency is too often suppressed in our schools and workplaces. Well, the person who sent you this believes that we all can make a difference. We all have thousands of opportunities every single day to help realize the “natural order of things.” So many seemingly trivial interactions between two people present us with a choice: Do we pass along a little spark of love and humanity or do we pass up those opportunities and leave the world a little bit colder in the process?
A wise man once said every society is judged by how it treats it’s least fortunate amongst them.
May your day, be a Shay Day
May the Sun bring you new energies by day,
May the moon softly restore you by night,
May the rain wash away any worries you may have,
And the breeze blow new strength into your being,
And then,all the days of your life,
May you walk gently through the world and know its beauty and yours.
John,
That’s a wonderful story. Shay is your son, and you loved him very much. That’s something which will live forever. You will rejoice with him in heaven. He is a brave soul.
J
John, thank you for that wonderful story. I’m going to go back and read it again.
John, you’ve been gone a while and I was starting to get worried about you! I’m glad you are back and I really enjoyed your post.
thanks Bethany,
a few weeks back I spilled a pot of boiling dinner on my lap … have been recovering from the burns since!
re. my post …. it is meant to contrast human behavior … and teach us all how to become more human. Too often the points we make in this debate are lost (or considered inconsequential) by people just learning to be human. They are not bad people, they just don’t know.
“You, by getting your birth control there, are supporting their murdering business.
What kind of man Erin, would escort you into the devils chamber. Dan has been seduced by satan, I’m sorry to hear that.”
YAY DOE MORE JASPER QUOTES! THE SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS IS ALMOST BLINDING!!!!!!!!!!!!
On a serious note though, Jasper, why is getting birth control from Planned Parenthood so bad? Seems to me that they’re helping prevent Erin and I from having to come back in, and before you say if we can’t handle a baby, we shouldn’t have sex, there is no way in God’s green earth, Satan’s fiery hell, or anywhere else that I would stop having sex short of full castration. It’s just too much fun, as long as you’re safe and careful about it.
As for me leading people off the safe path to the dark side, leave it alone. I don’t make people stray from the path at all. The only thing I tell people to do is think for themselves and do what’s best for them, not what someone else bullies them into and tells them to do. No, I have not been seduced by Satan, though he did offer me some very nice looking apples in exchange for my allegiance to the dark side…. :)
The only quote that irritated me, though, was when you questioned my integrity. I understand that you don’t support abortion, but if you think that I’d be heartless enough to make Erin go through that ordeal alone, then you need to talk to me more.
Have a nice day!
“God is amazing isn’t He? That He blesses everyone, despite their disobedience. Why do you think that is? Perhaps it’s not a blessing?
Think of the 50,000,000 or so human beings that will never be able to even imagine what a lobster tail and filet mignon would taste like and experience the love and friendship of a boyfriend or girlfriend.”
HisMan, you have the most amazing talent to suck the fun and happiness out of everything. That either makes your world really easy to be in or just really freaking boring. STOP SUCKING THE FUN OUTTA THINGS!
John, I hope you are okay! OUCH!