Supremes decline forced contraceptive coverage case
On Monday the Supreme Court declined to consider the appeal of a lower court ruling uphodling a 2002 New York state law forcing some religious employers to cover contraceptives in their health insurance drug plans, which violated their religious beliefs.
Four points on this….
1. The groups suing, which included Baptists, Catholics, Orthodox Jews, and Seventh Day Adventists, correctly argued, as quoted by the Associated Press:
If the state can compel church entities to subsidize contraceptives in violation of their religious beliefs, it can compel them to subsidize abortions as well…. And if it can compel church entities to subsidize abortions, it can require hospitals owned by churches to provide them.
2. As a DC pro-lifer involved in public policy emailed:
The very existence of this case underscores the urgent need to break the link between health insurance and employment. If we all were able to buy our own health insurance, we could group together according to our moral principles. If the Knights of Columbus, for instance, were able to sell health insurance as they now sell life insurance, then Catholics would be able to own health insurance that did not violate their conscience. Ditto for Mormons, Southern Baptists, Muslims, and so forth.
Are you aware that 46% of workers in employer-sponsored health insurance plans are in plans which cover abortion? Those people are subsidizing abortion – against their will, and probably without their knowledge.
I know that health insurance reform seems to be a long way from the life issue. But it is intimately connected to it. Everything we care about in the life battles connects sooner or later with health insurance reform.
If you want to reform health care, you have to reform health insurance. If you want to reform health insurance, you have to reform the federal tax code. That’s because when your employer buys your health insurance neither he nor you pay any tax on it – but your employer owns it and you have no choice about it. But the federal tax code is the reason individuals can not afford to buy their own health insurance.
That must change, or there can be no freedom of conscience in health insurance. So when you hear about “conservatives” wanting to create a personal health care tax credit, please understand that this is a very pro-life initiative as well as a “conservative” one.
3. Is this over? Two points of view. Arguing yes, as quoted by the AP:
“We thought the addition of Roberts and Alito and the fact that we included churches would make a difference. It didn’t. I think the battle has been fought and lost,” said Dennis Poust, spokesman for the New York State Catholic Conference, the public policy arm of the state’s Catholic bishops.
Arguing no:
“The Supreme Court likes to have issues percolate for a while at the lower courts. They also look for the best vehicle to address a specific issue. This very well could end up at the Supreme Court,” said [Jordan] Lorence [attorney for the Alliance Defense Fund].
My pro-life public policy email friend also thought no:
I think (hope?) they’re biding their time for a better case, at the right time… in which they can accomplish something definitive.
I’m glad they didn’t get into this and end up with a half-baked decision that did as much harm as good.
4. To date, 23 states have passed laws forcing employers to cover birth control pills. Who is behind the push? Planned Parenthood, which makes a ton of easy money from selling contraceptives, made all that easier by submitting claims to insurance companies. An AP article quoted the JoAnn Smith, president of Family Planning Advocates of New York State:
“Every state court that has heard this case has affirmed that the law helps to provide access to basic health care. Today’s decision by the Supreme Court not to consider the case protects the religious freedom of women and families.”
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Finally, the SC got something right.
Permitting employers to start deciding which kinds of medical coverage they are going to provide for their employees opens a huge can of worms. Health care should be the choice of just two people–the involved individual and her doctor.
Enigma,
Employers are allowed to choose health plans that don’t cover everything.
That is why the state of New York had to pass a law requiring contraceptive coverage.
The Supreme court is declining to hear a case challenging the state’s authority to mandate coverage in this particular instance, not in every instance.
Health plans can and will continue to be able to deny coverage for many services and drugs.
The case has nothing to do with health care decisions, just who pays for certain prescriptions. The individual could still go to her doctor anyway, and the two of them could still make the decision, but she would have to pay for the prescription.
By the way,
My friend’s cancer drugs cost $16,000 a month for 3 months and her employer’s health plan didn’t cover it.
Hippie,
I stand semi-corrected. Health care is not a topic with which I have a lot of experience. My sentiment still stands.
“Employers are allowed to choose health plans that don’t cover everything.”
According to what I’ve read, their choices tend to leave women out in the cold a lot more than men.
“The case has nothing to do with health care decisions, just who pays for certain prescriptions.”
So why don’t employers refuse to pay for Viagra? Isn’t it a slight double-standard to say, no, birth control is bad, but Viagra is okay?
“The individual could still go to her doctor anyway, and the two of them could still make the decision, but she would have to pay for the prescription.”
Health care exists to help a person pay for medical care. If it doesn’t, it’s not doing its job.
Some people can’t afford to pay for health care except when costs are slightly offset by health insurance.
See, I have a bit of a problem with this. I DO NOT believe that religiously-based institutions should have to cover birth control. That’s definitely not separation of church and state if the state can tell the church what to do. However, secular institutions SHOULD be required to cover contraception, as women from all walks of life are likely to be employees. Perhaps I completely missed the argument, but this is how I feel. Comments?
Oh, and Enigma…I’m pissed about that Viagra thing too. So women who don’t want to get pregnant are “playing God” but men who can’t get it up are not “playing God” when they go against what might be God’s will to get an erection. Unbelievable. Not being able to have sex isn’t a disease, either, because sex isn’t essential for life. Just like saying pregnancy isn’t a disease, because it isn’t essential for a woman’s life…maybe it was just willed by God. :D
So much for religious employers’ “freedom of choice”…
Health care should be the choice of just two people–the involved individual and her doctor.
It’s not between two people if you force a thrid party (the employer) to pay for it.
Birth control is not health care. It’s a recreational drug so people can have recreational sex any time they want rather than just infertile times. It’s the opposite of “health”care because it sabotages the health of the woman’s reproductive organs to render her infertile. All fo this with health risks disproportionate to the supposed benefits of consequence-free sex, clearer skin and fake periods. So why should any insurance plan waste money by breaking healthy organs when it could be spending money fixing what is actually broken?
OK, isn’t that just good business?
Isn’t covering contraception and strelization WAY cheaper than than covering a pregnancy, birth, and well-baby coverage?
(I have an elementary-school buddy who has a freakish Lupus-like autoimmine disoreder. All three of her pregnancies cost over one million dollars each. Her insurance company won’t cover an elective tubal for her, either…)
Laura-
So?
Laura-
So?
Posted by: Jacqueline at October 4, 2007 12:33 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
So? So covering her tubal would cost a tiny fraction of covering another high-rist pregnancy, and might save her life.
(Bunny got SO critical so fast with her last pregnancy. Her husband has said many times that if it came down to Miss B or the fetus, the fetus is toast…)
Lyssie and John, the ACLU (don’t roll your eyes, I am just explaining the logic behind the decision) press release puts it this way:
The law at issue, the Women’s Health and Wellness Act, requires insurance companies to cover women’s preventive health care, including mandating that insurance plans that cover prescription drugs do not exclude contraceptives from that coverage. The law exempts religious employers such as churches, mosques, and temples, whose main purpose is to promote a particular religious faith and who primarily employ and serve people who share their religious beliefs.
Catholic Charities, despite its name, is not a church. It does not primarily promote Catholicism, and it employs and serves many non-Catholics. Therefore, it does not meet the criteria for exemption from this law. The court case was decided correctly, and the Supremes’ declining to to hear the case reaffirms this. It isn’t up for debate.
If you want a different outcome, you must change the law. Good luck.
Jacqueline, if you want to use the rhythm method and keep squirting out those accidental babies, go for it. Most of the rest of us enjoy being mammals and have no problems with contraception. And a few of us, conscious of man’s negative impact on the ecosystem, would condemn you for contributing to a severe overpopulation problem.
Hey Ray.
“Jacqueline, if you want to use the rhythm method and keep squirting out those accidental babies, go for it.”
Modern abstinence methods are not the rhythm method. If you check the EVIL Allan Guttmacher institute Text you will see that perfect use of NFP is 99% effective. Here is a recent article from secular Scientific American saying the same thing. So it is possible to not have a child, have sex, and not tell a lie with one’s body.
“And a few of us, conscious of man’s negative impact on the ecosystem, would condemn you for contributing to a severe overpopulation problem.”
Ever been to the midwest? Or most of Canada? God love you, Ray.
Ray,
Contraceptives are not 100% effective.
My mother had both of us from contraceptive failure.
My brother has four kids from contraceptive failure.
Every contraceptive product clearly lists its failure rate on the package. That includes pills, iuds, condoms, creams, you name it.
Of course natural family planning has a failure rate too.
There is nothing wrong with having a family and many families have at least some of their children other than exactly when they would choose, and they are still thrilled to have them.
Smile, these accidental babies will be supporting you someday in the form of sky high taxes for your Medicare and Social Security benefits.
I don’t mean to be critical but, well, this comment sounds a little self righteous. Not just judging, condemning.
“And a few of us, conscious of man’s negative impact on the ecosystem, would condemn you for contributing to a severe overpopulation problem.”
Posted by: Ray at October 4, 2007 1:21 PM
We are all trying to do our best, you know, in good conscience.
Maybe there is a kinder way to appeal to someone’s conscience.
>Ever been to the midwest? Or most of Canada?
We’re not running out of space, we are spoiling our planet’s ability to keep us alive. When God said to go forth and multiply, he didn’t mean we were supposed to kill off everything else.
hippie, thanks to your side’s anti sex and anti sex-ed agenda, most people don’t have the knowledge they need to effectively use something like “NFP.” You folks have caused most women to be too grossed out about their bodies to take basal temperatures and check the consistency of their mucus.
And while you may be a supermom, showing your daughters how to fine tune their vaginas, most women aren’t. So where are women going to learn? Not in school, if you folks have your way. Where else? Sunday school? Ironically, the answer is the organization that you love to hate: people who want to learn about their options for contraception, including NFP, call Planned Parenthood.
“We’re not running out of space, we are spoiling our planet’s ability to keep us alive. ”
Ever seen people in the Midwest? Let’s just say that most of them are in very little danger of death…
“thanks to your side’s anti sex and anti sex-ed agenda”
Actually, we’re the only ones who aren’t anit-sex. Planned Parenthood? They are TERRIFIED of sex! Pills, patches, rubbers, jellys, implants? Gimmie the real thing, baby!!
“want to learn about their options for contraception, including NFP, call Planned Parenthood.”
Dude. Come on. If you’re going to a federation that butchered 264,943 human beings in one year, why would you want to use NFP? God love you, Ray.
Dearest Ray,
Catholic Charities, despite its name, is not a church. It does not primarily promote Catholicism, and it employs and serves many non-Catholics.
Yes, but it provides its services in the name of the Catholic Church to promote the values of the Catholic Church. One such value is valuing human life, human bodies and holy human sexuality. Therefore, regardless of who it employs or who it serves, it has a right NOT TO PAY for benefits that assault its values and likewise enables people in mortal sin. Those who don’t share those values also have the right to not work at that organization or pay for contraceptives themselves, but asking someone to pay for and participate in other’s immorality is immoral in itself. Not that I expect you to understand the difference between right and wrong. I thought I’d point it out nonetheless.
Jacqueline, if you want to use the rhythm method and keep squirting out those accidental babies, go for it.
With words like “squirting out” and “accidental babies,” it’s know wonder why your ilk has rightly earned a reputation for hating all life that isn’t a tree, a amoeba or yourselves. I much enjoy being a mammal- bearing and birthing live young being a major characteristic of that classification. You apparently self-loathe being a mammal enough to thwart that.
By the way, regardless of your hatefulness, no babies are ever accidents. A child is a sign of human bodies working correctly, whereas infertility during the reproductive years is a sign of the body working incorrectly. You may not desire a baby, but he/she is not an accident. What an insult to humanity, yourself included. Although you’re oblivious to that fact because you think that the sole purpose of having babies is to bring pleasure to the parents. Apparently, children have no innate value in your estimation unless wanted by those that conceive them. This again pronounces you hatred of humanity.
And NFP is 99% effective, so the odds of my giving birth to a unexpected bonus baby are about the same as yours. Only you’ll drop your chin in shock of how you could have sex and get pregnant (how did that happen? we were on the pill!) whereas I still understand the concepts of biology and basic cause and effect.
And a few of us, conscious of man’s negative impact on the ecosystem, would condemn you for contributing to a severe overpopulation problem.
Once again with that hatred of mankind. By the way: Overpopulation…we could have a lot of fun with that one if I were in the mood (which I’m not).
And condemn me all you want. In fact, I think I’ll name one of my 23 children Ray. And I’ll buy him a gas-guzzling SUV just to piss you off.
Sorry, Ray. I didn’t mean to be flippant above, but I really think that even most of the people who support legal abortion on this blog would not agree that people who want to learn about NFP would go to PP.
You’re only planning on having 23 children Jaqu? And here I was, thinking you were open to life! :)
Darling Ray,
You folks have caused most women to be too grossed out about their bodies to take basal temperatures and check the consistency of their mucus.
As opposed to womwn that loathe their reproductive capacity so much that they break their bodies to avoid monthly periods? We as Christians respect human bodies and holy human sexuality as glorious gifts and creations (as they are, that need not be polluted). We adore human biology. You apparently hate it and are so offended by it that you must take pills or have surgery to thwart it.
The Church loves sex. “Go forth and multiply,” guess what- that involves SEX.
So where are women going to learn?
From the Church! The same people that you claim are trying to keep information about sexuality and human bodies suppressed are the ones that promote and teach classes on NFP.
Oh, and by the way, as a charting woman, I can say that vaginas need no fine tuning. You simply watch and document how your body naturally works (you don’t change or manipulate a thing).
P.S. Planned Parenthood does not offer NFP classes. And anyone that would practice NFP, wouldn’t take a class on respecting life from the world’s largest murderer of children.
You’re only planning on having 23 children Jaqu? And here I was, thinking you were open to life! :)
That’s the capacity on the school bus we’re going to have to buy if we ever want leave the house as a family. And unless I have many sets of multiples, I doubt I’ll exceed 23. But we’ll see. :)
I get a headrush of glee at the fact that my happy family offends so many choicers. Bwhahahahaha.
in response to Ray K:
1. NFP is simple enough to use that it was taught to uneducated couples in India – however it does require CONTINENCE (that big bad word meaning self-control )
2. A woman’s fertility symptoms are NOT GROSS – they are a part of our body’s proper way of functioning
3. Sex is not best taught in school but by parents who should go get the classes themselves
if they don’t know
I would love the hear about ANY PP organization that even knows the basics of NFP which they likely refer to as the “rhythm method”
Hi there Patricia. To be fair, PP does have some info about fertility-awareness methods. I haven’t really read through it to see how accurate it is, although I’m not sure it would be too beneficial since I’m by no means an expert in NFP. God love you Patricia.
Once again with that hatred of mankind. By the way: Overpopulation…we could have a lot of fun with that one if I were in the mood (which I’m not).
Climate change, plummeting fish stocks, unsustainable agriculture, where we start? I don’t hate mankind, but there are too many of us for our little planet to support.
And condemn me all you want. In fact, I think I’ll name one of my 23 children Ray. And I’ll buy him a gas-guzzling SUV just to piss you off.
How very Christian of you! “I’ll have all the kids I want, even if it screws it up for everyone else!” I’m sure Jesus would be proud.
Thank you Bobby – although I wonder just when they would get to it after all the other methods ;)
I used NFP for 15 years and spaced my children every 2-3 years with this method and breast-feeding
It WORKS and there are no negative side effects, spiritual, physical, or otherwise
Ray,
You wrote:
“hippie, thanks to your side’s anti sex and anti sex-ed agenda, most people don’t have the knowledge they need to effectively use something like “NFP”
Well, once I was discussing birthrates here with Doug who pointed out to me that both the marriage rate and birthrate dropped dramatically (like 40-50 %) during the Great Depression all without birth control or abortion or sex ed.
Now either they were a lot smarter back then or….
Anyway, its cheap and easy to sign up for NFP classes and that would definitely count as sex ed. Also, people who want to conceive often use fertility awareness to get pregnant without being grossed out.
I only briefly skimmed the info from the link you sent me Bobby:
Some inaccuracies:
for example: “Do not depend on charting your fertility pattern if you have irregular periods”
Hogwash- most women are irregular afterall we’re not clocks
It is precisely because of this irregularity that women can effectively use NFP because it relies on the woman’s day to day fertility symptoms.
It’s the getting to know one’s body that is the difficult part.
I wouldn’t be getting my NFP info from PP but Couple to Couple League or Billings – people who are THE EXPERTS
A woman using this method is likely to have only one partner (formerly this was known as a “husband”)in a stable relationship (known at one time as “marriage”)
However, if you’re gonna have FWB or other situations well…..??????
Jaqueline,
“It’s not between two people if you force a thrid party (the employer) to pay for it.”
Employers aren’t forced to pay for medical care. Most offer it as a benefit to attract skilled workers.
“Birth control is not health care. It’s a recreational drug so people can have recreational sex any time they want rather than just infertile times. It’s the opposite of “health”care because it sabotages the health of the woman’s reproductive organs to render her infertile. All fo this with health risks disproportionate to the supposed benefits of consequence-free sex, clearer skin and fake periods. So why should any insurance plan waste money by breaking healthy organs when it could be spending money fixing what is actually broken?”
Birth control pills do have medical uses, even by your terms. How do you think they treat ovarian cysts? How do you think they treat women with chronic painful periods? I’ve known people who have taken birth control for both of these reasons.
Birth control doesn’t sabotage anything. It allows a woman not to be enslaved by her body’s natural inclinations. Since when have humans ever hesitated before altering anything simply because its natural?
Precious Ray,
Somehow I find it impossible to taking a rebuke about my Christianity someone like you.
I’m sure Jesus would be proud.
I try my best to make Him so.
By the way, have you ever asked why you’re so hateful towards strangers and human life in general? Might I remind you that you first accosted me with your condemnation, I merely responded. You came with your insults towards me (and humanity) with no provocation. And then you get all high and mighty when I respond in a less than charitable way towards you?
Be hipocritical and rude all you please, but don’t expect me to be offended when you attack me, I defend myself, and then you turn around accuse me of unChristlike behavior.
Bobby,
“Actually, we’re the only ones who aren’t anit-sex. Planned Parenthood? They are TERRIFIED of sex! Pills, patches, rubbers, jellys, implants? Gimmie the real thing, baby!!”
PP is in no way terrified of sex. Promoting healthy sexual practices and teaching people ways to avoid pregnancy does not indicate a fear of sex. Rather, it embraces the notion that women, as well as men, should be able to enjoy sex without fear of an unwanted pregnancy.
Enigma,
“Birth control doesn’t sabotage anything. It allows a woman not to be enslaved by her body’s natural inclinations.”
I guess it’s a case of semantics: women are not enslaved by her body’s natural inclinations
A woman’s body is designed to have a baby after sexual intercourse. And since that’s a real consequence of intercourse, it’s best (for mom and baby) within marriage. It’s natural and healthy. In fact contraception enslaves women – to men. How many men would even consider dating a woman who doesn’t “put out”? I doubt very many. I think a great many women are FORCED in a subtle way to give in to men’s sexual advances in the hopes that they will secure the man as a future spouse – much to their great disappointment later on.
Enigma,
I’m not going to rehash every anti-pill debate I’ve ever had. I’m sure you’ve read some of them.
I have endometriosis (chronic pelvic pain) and the fluke side effect of the pill is pain relief- A fluke side effect that is accomplished by breaking functions that are working properly (like ovulation). I found an alternative to deal with my actual disorder, not some pill that breaks what’s working to inadvertently relieve the pain (but yet not actually FIX what was truly wrong). If women didn’t cop-out and accept a chemical dependency (a pill a day) for their legitimate medical concerns, perhaps real medications would be developed that actually address these issues. Women are getting screwed (and screwing themselves by accepting half-ass treatments). Women deserve better than to be thrown only temporary relief for real medical problems at the expense of their reproductive health.
Any supposed benefits from the pill are off-set by the risks and the fact that you’re intentionally harming your fertility. Chronic painful periods- Had them. I treat them by avoiding caffeine, complex carbs, excessive sugar and, if necessary, I take an anti-inflammatory like Naproxen. I don’t take a pill every single day to ruin my cycle (at the risk of blood clots, strokes, weight gain, etc.) simply to avoid a few days of pain that is easily controlled. And, since I changed my lifestyle, my painful periods all by disappeared, whereas pill users’ pain would return without the pill. And by the way, having a baby typically stops monthly menstrual pain.
Employers aren’t forced to pay for medical care. Most offer it as a benefit to attract skilled workers.
Did you not read what this post was about? Large employers are forced to provide benefits and in those benefits they are forced to include contraceptives. How is that now “forced to pay”?
It allows a woman not to be enslaved by her body’s natural inclinations.
You are saying there is something inherently wrong with women’s bodies that is enslaving. Our bodies are naturally BAD and we must take a pill to fix them. I disagree. My body is naturally GOOD. I pity any woman detests her femininity so much she sees her body as a ball and chain rather than a beautiful creation. I am not a slave to my natural body functions. Neither are you. Embracing the beauty of the human body is a wonderful alternative to misogynistic self-loathing.
PP is in no way terrified of sex. Promoting healthy sexual practices and teaching people ways to avoid pregnancy does not indicate a fear of sex. Rather, it embraces the notion that women, as well as men, should be able to enjoy sex without fear of an unwanted pregnancy.
Enigma, if they are afraid of the natural consequences of sex (pregnancy), then they are afraid of sex.
Sex can be completely embraced without any fear. Ask Bobby, MK, Milehimama, or Patricia. Not only without a fear of pregnancy, but without a fear of diseases, or a fear of heartbreak. In fact, sex can be met with joy. The joy of anticipating a child! Sex is not meant have any downsides. It’s all a wonderful gift from God (if you accept it as it, don’t pervert it or use it out of context).
We Catholics that don’t mess with the sex act don’t fear it at all. We embrace every aspect of it completely.
hippie, thanks to your side’s anti sex and anti sex-ed agenda, most people don’t have the knowledge they need to effectively use something like “NFP.” You folks have caused most women to be too grossed out about their bodies to take basal temperatures and check the consistency of their mucus.
Ironically, the answer is the organization that you love to hate: people who want to learn about their options for contraception, including NFP, call Planned Parenthood.
Posted by: Ray K at October 4, 2007 1:57 PM
That’s FUNNY Ray. I highly doubt that PP supporters are using NFP. And if you want to know why people don’t know about NFP it’s because it’s FREE! That’s right; no one can get rich off of it so why push it? The drug companies can’t charge for it, the doctors can’t get a kick-back from it so why bother? And it might work (gasp!) and take away PP most lucrative business.
When’s the last time you saw an NFP commercial? I saw three “Pill” commercials watching Oprah. Give me a break, the Pro-lifers are all talking about it and trying to get through the blank-stares from people like you.
Actually, we’re the only ones who aren’t anit-sex. Planned Parenthood? They are TERRIFIED of sex! Pills, patches, rubbers, jellys, implants?
I agree with Bobby. Users of these chemicals and devices are obviously terrified of sex. Saying otherwise is like saying, “I’m not afraid of dogs, as long as they’re muzzled.” Yes you are afraid of dogs, or you wouldn’t require a muzzle.
“I’m not afraid of sex, I just need a rubber, jelly, pill or implant between us.” If they aren’t afraid of sex, why do they require such devices?
They are afraid of sex because sex causes babies. But babies are nothing to fear. See:
Actually I don’t think that people are afraid of sex, they’re afraid of babies.
For people who support the “choice” to abort, the baby is the problem, hence the abortion, the contraception etc.
Except, the baby isn’t the problem, the SEX is!
Some researchers are now suggesting that contraception may actually create a fear of pregnancy in women, further exacerbating the problem.
Making babies and having sex are difficult to separate, hard as people have been trying since the sexual revolution. This divorce has never really happened- as evidenced by nearly 50 million abortions in a age where birth control in available at any grocery store or gas station bathroom. Sex and babies are linked by cause and effect. Period.
I hide my annoyance when someone says, “I can’t be pregnant right now!” Actually, if you’ve had sex, you CAN be pregnant right now. You see, that’s how people get pregnant.
Or when someone says, “But I used a condom. How did this happen?” Someone put their penis into your vagina and ejaculated sperm, which traveled upwards to the egg. That’s how this happened.
I just hate it when people do the act that causes pregnancy and have the audacity to be shocked when the act causes pregnancy. It’s cause and effect, people, despite your efforts to the contrary.
Hey there everyone.
First of all, I don’t like how other pro-choicers are so adamant about making derogatory comments about women who WANT to have large families. There will be other couples who choose NOT to have children at all, so it all balances out. Jacque, if you want to have a gazillion kids, GO FOR IT!! This is one chick that’s happy with your choice.
Also, can anyone put me in contact with Carder? She mentioned that she instructs NFP use, and I wanted to get more info from her if I ever wanted to get off the pill and revert to a more natural, holistic method of not getting pregnant when I get married. I am not big on taking medicines in general, I usually just let my body take care of sicknesses by itself, so cycling off of the pill might be nice if I can figure out a way to control my dysmenorrhea (spelling) without it. I might look into vitamin K treatments.
Oh, and Bobby, when is your little girl due? I heard that you’re gonna be a daddy. :D
*Lyssie*
“I can’t be pregnant right now!…But I used a condom. How did this happen?”
I can’t gain weight right now! But I threw up. How did this happen?
Hi Lyssie.
“Oh, and Bobby, when is your little girl due? I heard that you’re gonna be a daddy. :D”
She is due 5 weeks from today, November 8. It seems like it might actually happen! God love you.
Okay Jacq – THAT is the cutest darn baby I have ever seen! (Barring my own anyway.)
But I have one other thing to say to RAY…
I live in a very affluent area. Not b/c I am wealthy, my husband teaches here. Anyway my husband and I have a barely 2200 SF house that we share with our dog and six kids – 14 if you count the neighbor kids that are always here. I drive a conversion van that is several years old but I plan on getting at LEAST 10 more out of, my husband walks to work as often as he can and only my oldest son and daughter get all new clothes, the others have at least some hand-me-downs.
By comparison my wealthy neighbors have maybe a 3 or 4 person household yet have mansions – and I’m talking about 5000 SF. They remodel their houses on a whim, buy a new car every other year, buy their 1 or 2 children the latest gadgets every chance they get, including new computers and IPods. Their “weekend shopping spree” equals three of my kids wardrobes in quantity. And, in the few blocks surrounding me, there are no less than 3 Hummers as well as assorted Expeditions, and every matter of SUV – to carry their TWO children.
Now you tell me who has the greater impact on the planet? I’m not complaining, I love my house and having a TON of kids running around but your “overpopulation” argument is WEAK! The number of people aren
That’s exciting, Bobby. My boyfriend’s sister is due with her little girl in late December, and I guess, as a female, I’m getting into “excited over baby” mode. :P
How’s your wife doing, and did she think of any names yet? (This is gonna be your first baby, right?)
(Sorry if I’m being intrusive, but I’m addicted to the characters on this blog. :D )
Yes, this is our first. My wife is doing pretty well. It’s getting harder and harder for her to move around, and she gets heartburn at night, but other than that pretty well. We are down to about 6 names; Genevieve, Gloria, Gianna, Bella, Anna, Anilia, Josephine. Probably one of those. And, no, you’re not intrusive. I love talking about my family! God love you.
Of the names you listed I would choose Josephine, after the feminine name of the cross-dressing saxophone player in SOME LIKE IT HOT (played by Tony Curtis).
Bobby,
Gianna. What a lovely name! She’s also my patroness. I love all the other names as well. I hope to have a Gianna myself one day.
Lyssie,
I want whatever God has for me. It may be a gazillion kids or it may be one or two- but I’ll gratefully accept them all. I hope to adopt as well. I chose social work because I wanted to make myself as attractive as a foster/adoptive parent as possible.
I don’t know Carder’s contact info, but here’s a link that might help.
http://www.nfpandmore.org/nfphowto.shtml
And Patricia, Milehimama and Bobby can testify to the benefits of NFP. Good luck to you.
Hey everyone, Happy Feast Day of St. Francis of Assisi!
Peace and all good! – Pax et bonum!
And to all you parents, congrats on your families. Keep having more kids! We love em.
“How can there be too many children? That is like saying there are too many flowers.” – Blessed Mother Teresa
Some resources for couples:
For NFP info:
The Couple to Couple League: www ccli org
CREIGHTON MODEL FertilityCare? System
The CrMS finally allows a woman to unravel the mysteries of her menstrual cycle! An authentic language of a woman’s health and fertility.
http://www.creightonmodel.com/
and
NaProTECHNOLOGY (Natural Procreative Technology) is a new women’s health science that monitors and maintains a woman’s reproductive and gynecological health. It provides medical and surgical treatments that cooperate completely with the reproductive system.
NaProTECHNOLOGY com
Just recommendations that I have heard very good reports on. NaProTechnology helped David and Margaret Bereit conceive their two “miracle babies” as they put it.
By the way, I’m not pro-NFP.
I think the Bible condemns marital abstinence for any reason other than prayer. To me, avoiding children through abstinence has the same end as avoiding children through contraception. Yes you change your behavior rather than pervert the act, but exactly what reasons justify you telling God, “Don’t bless me now!” Sex is supposed to be unitive and procreative. TO only have sex during the infertile times is to intentionally deny the procreative aspect of sex.
Why would any married couple not want a child? I think all those reasons boil down to a lack of faith in God’s provision and promise.
Jacque, the Catholic Church’s teaching is that there must be very serious reasons for practicing NFP, and it cannot be used indefinitely. The principle is that every conjugal act must be open to the transmission of life. This is not the same as every act must intend to conceive. This as I understand, is my Church’s teaching. But I need to study this more.
A very sad news story from Chicagoland today:
Pregnant woman killed in Deerfield shooting, suspect wanted
October 4, 2007 – Police have now released the identity of a woman who was shot to death in Deerfield Thursday morning. She is identified as 42-year-old Rhoni Reuter. She was pregnant, the Lake County coroner said.
Reuter died of multiple gunshot wounds, the coroner ruled in a preliminary report.
Police do not have a suspect in custody, but said the public is not in danger.
The shooting occurred at the Deerfield Crossings condominium complex, located at 441 Elm, around 8 a.m. Nearby Shephard Middle School was placed on lockdown for a few hours while officials worked the scene.
….
An autopsy on the victim was performed Thursday afternoon. Preliminary results say the victim was carrying a child, but it was undetermined how far along she was.
“It does go to show that shootings can happen anywhere any time, any place unfortunately,” said Stephanie Janower, mother of a sixth grader.
Story from ABC7 Chicago – http://tinyurl.com/2wq5kc
Jacque:
Thanks for the information. Either way, I think it’s a tad insulting to think that there must be something wrong with a married couple who doesn’t want children. Do you really think it’s impossible for a couple to be completely happy without children? I realize that yes, kids can be a wonderful thing, but many married people have an absolutely wonderful thing going without children.
Bobby,
I’m partial to Gianna or Josephine. My youngest is named Theresa Josephine because I prayed to both St. Theresa and St. Joseph. She was born in 1997, St. Theresa’s centenary! But, I didn’t want to leave out St. Joseph – so he’s in there to, name wise.
“My youngest is named Theresa Josephine”
Oh nice! I love St. Theresa. In fact, my dad suggested that name for our daughter to me in an email just yesterday! But alas, it didn’t make the list. Always a good idea to not leave St. Joseph out :) God love you.
Laura, I didn’t mean my comment as derogatory. I just simply typed how I felt about her question about why married couples wouldn’t want a child. I truly didn’t want to start anything. I respect her views as much as I respect yours.
Peace to you all..I’m off to visit the boyfriend, whom I miss dearly. :)
Hi Laura.
” I just thought I’d warn you about Jaquelines years of experience and wise advice.”
I agree, definitely. I’ve only been in contact with Jacqueline a couple weeks, but I can already tell that she has really studied the issues and definitely knows what she’s talking about. God love you, Laura
Patricia,
Jacqueline,
Lyssie,
Laura likes to lie, twist words and plagarize, which is why I don’t indulge her in conversation. But I’ll correct her lies:
Here’s the truth: I recently turned 27 a month ago (I’m 3 years shy of 30. I know when you’re as old as Laura, 3 years ain’t much but it is when you’re young like I am). And I cured my endometriosis with diet, exercise and natural supplements (vitamins, soy products and omega 3’s). I take an Aleve when I have an rare bout of normal menstrual cramps (which is only every few months since I am caffiene free) but other than that I take no medication for a disease that I’m no longer afflicated with. So no, I don’t have endometriosis that I treat with pain pills. That’s a lie. I am disease free, have minimal PMS and don’t take daily pills like Laura does to combat her fear of developing the endometriosis I have already conquered.
The only thing Laura said that isn’t a lie is that I am a virgin (which she thinks is an insult, as if having sex is an accomplishment reserved for only a certain caliber of people.) I am quite pleased with my choice to abstain, especially in light of Laura’s insisting that no one can be expected to do that. Myself, my boyfriend (and many of my ex boyfriends) and dearest friends have all made that lifestyle choice. Laura degrades it- I have no idea why. We don’t have the fears and worries (AIDS tests, pregnancy scares) that other people our age needlessly have. We’re happy this way. I think that infuriates Laura the most.
I don’t believe in ostentacious chemical alterations of healthy female bodies and had years of go-rounds with several abusive gynos because of my personal opposition to premarital sex and rejection of the pill. Having searched far and wide to help myself treat my condition without jacking with the parts of my body that actually were healthy, I feel qualified to condemn the pill as an injustice towards women with medical needs and an all around bad idea. I studied it extensively to see if I could take certain parts of it and leave others (you can’t)- but I was pleased to find an all-natural solution. When you’re on the pill, you no longer have your natural period, mucus, etc. to gauge your reproductive health, so if something were to go wrong, you wouldn’t know. With charting, you know something’s wrong with your body before a doctor can even diagnose you. Likewise, you know when you’re fertile and when you’re not for purposes of getting pregnant or avoiding pregnancy. Being all natural is better than being chained to a pill. I think you’ll like it.
I know you didn’t mean your comment as derogatory, but Laura did. All she does is spew venom. I don’t know what I did to incur her wrath (other than shoot down every ignorant assertion or lie that she posts). Just a likewise warning: take anything she says (or cuts and pastes and claims as her own) with a grain of salt. If she lies about me, can we believe anything she says about herself?
Funny, you sid this in a post earlier today:
I have endometriosis (chronic pelvic pain) and the fluke side effect of the pill is pain relief- A fluke side effect that is accomplished by breaking functions that are working properly (like ovulation).
Then this:
And I cured my endometriosis
Make up your mind…
My bad. I should have said “had.” So it’s my typo against your blatant lies.
Now show me where I said that I was 30 and currently treat my endometriosis with pain pills. I haven’t taken pills for my endo since I was 21. Haven’t needed them.
And own up to your posts, Laura.
Wow! Welcome to persecute Jacque day! Between the unprovoked spontaneous personal assault from Ray— followed by the completely characteristic
(and likewise unprovoked) bitter lies from Laura, mind you that neither of the personal attacks being at all pertinent to the topic at hand, I’m wondering how I merited all the attention?
People are awful testy about my desire to save sex, pursue natural remedies and have any children I concieve. I’m flattered that the worldly find my life so offensive. Apparently I am doing something right! Go, Jacque, Go!
By the way, endometriosis isn’t pelvic pain, it’s pelvic destruction.
You can mask the symptoms, but you can’t arrest it without hormonal or surgical means. Pregnancy helps.
Go, Gerbil, Go!
That last line reminded me of this Stephen Lynch song. =P
“which [Laura] thinks is an insult, as if having sex is an accomplishment reserved for only a certain caliber of people.”
What makes you say that?
“Apparently I am doing something right!”
yes, you are Jacque. Good for you.
Laura, please debate the issues, and refrain from insulting and/or slandering the commenters here. I’m going to remove the inflammatory posts so that the discussion can continue.
Read the whole sentence and understand the context. Enigma stated chronic painful periods as a reason to use the pill. And I said that I once had them (HAD them) and I treat them with diet changes and an anti-inflammatory, that even if I still had them I wouldn’t take a pill every day to avoid pain for only a couple of days a month when a Naproxen could cover it.
Read what I said:
“Chronic painful periods- Had them. I treat them by avoiding caffeine, complex carbs, excessive sugar and, if necessary, I take an anti-inflammatory like Naproxen.”
Notice that I said I’ve had them, not HAVE them. No typo there. And once again, we’re talking about painful periods, not for the endo. Sporadic menstrual cramps is not endo- it’s quite common.
Occaisionally I still have normal menstrual cramps, nothing an Aleve can’t fix. And you can see that those are rare because I avoid caffeine, like I said. Caffiene is often the culprit for painful periods.
My point was that Enigma’s justifications for the pill are all surmountable. I handled chronic painful periods and endo without the pill because I refused to accept that I’d be on a pill for the rest of my life rather than getting a real cure. (That was one reason- I was also in a 3 year relationship headed toward marriage and didn’t want to be on an abortifacient after I got married and started having sex. I also wanted babies and that’s hard to do if you’re taking a pill to render you infertile, and so on…).
I don’t know why I’m indulging you. Laura, you got caught lying and now you’re trying to turn it around and accuse me of lying to take the attention of yourself. And then you got caught not signing your posts, either.
Everytime you address me you end up looking more and more vapid, regardless of the topic. Whether it’s the Texas Futile Care Law (yeah, attack my level of expertise in that one, I DARE ya.’), abortion, advanced directives, contraception, etc. you have no clue what you’re talking about and resort to personally attacking me to avoid admitting that you are ignorant. I challenge you to a civil conversation about a topic without personal attacks or vacant, smarmy sarcasm. If you are incapable of that, then you really should learn when to shut up.
By the way, have you ever asked why you’re so hateful towards strangers and human life in general? Might I remind you that you first accosted me with your condemnation, I merely responded. You came with your insults towards me (and humanity) with no provocation. And then you get all high and mighty when I respond in a less than charitable way towards you?
Jacqueline, apologies for getting personal. You are in the crossfire between me and the Catholic Church. I regard the Church’s policy forbidding birth control and abortion as reckless and irresponsible, due in part to the aforementioned overpopulation issue. All of us, most especially in this country, use obscene amounts of fossil fuels and other nonrenewable materials to support our daily lives. Even if you don’t drive a car, every time you take a shower, run any water at all, heat or cool your house, multiply that by millions, then consider its effect on the thin atmosphere that protects us from death in space. Watch Al Gore’s film, An Inconvenient Truth, to learn more. And that doesn’t even mention all the poisonous chemicals being spewed into the air and water by corporations, in order to give us the things we consume.
I don’t hate humanity, I am hopeful for it, but right now I fear for its future as it overwhelms this Earth like locusts.
Increasing efficiency and using less will help, but not if there are more and more of us doing the consuming. Things aren’t yet dire enough that I would advocate active population control, but in light of the current situation, I regard forbidding contraception and abortion, and especially encouraging high birth rates (don’t get me started about the Mormons) as verging on a crime against the rest of humanity.
This is one of the few subjects out there that can really heat me up. And for you to joke about buying one of your 23 kids “a gas-guzzling SUV just to piss you off,” well, let’s just see who is laughing when the sea level has risen by several feet, causing misery for millions of people as they are flooded out of low lying areas.
And let’s see what the world has to say about the Catholic Church’s policy when we hit 10 billion and people are starving and thirsty. Where does it end? 20 billion? 30 billion? Or does it end when the population collapses because the planet’s ability to feed us has collapsed? I’d prefer to not see that happen.
So right now, if someone wants to wear a rubber or take the pill, I say let them. If someone can’t afford these things in this or any other country, give them for free! If a woman in the first term or so realizes she is not prepared to bring another human into this world, don’t force her to do it. And, (and I know you are going to love this) if a terminally ill patient in excruciating pain wants to end it now, let them. That’s right, I support the right to die.
It doesn’t help that in my experience of Catholicism, and I was raised Catholic, I experienced little but hypocrisy from the Catholics around me, and I never, for even a moment, not even a child, believed in the infallibility of the Pope. I am a proud ex-Catholic, who believes that we are here on this planet to learn and that there wouldn’t be much to learn if was a perfect place, but that doesn’t mean that each of us shouldn’t do everything we can to make it more pleasant for everyone else, and to help our fellow man in need. I also don’t believe in heaven or hell. Rather, since we come back to earth over and over, I believe that we create heaven and hell right here on earth, and we are really good at hell. Think about Nazi Germany, Cambodia, and present-day Iraq before you scoff.
Jacqueline, my wife and I have a kid on the way, our first, due in a couple of months. I want a future for them as good or better than mine looked, as I was growing up. To me, that means plenty of clean air, water, and food, among other things, not the dystopia that I see the Church encouraging, in the name of following the “word of God.” If that offends you, then too bad. I will be right here fighting for it nonetheless.
By the way, endometriosis isn’t pelvic pain, it’s pelvic destruction. You can mask the symptoms, but you can’t arrest it without hormonal or surgical means. Pregnancy helps.
It’s a hormonal imbalance that isn’t treated by introducing an additional hormonal imbalance. The pill introduces abnormal hormones.
By the way, eating a diet rich with the naturally-occuring estrogen in soy and flax seed oil while avoiding the unnatural hormones that are pumped into meats (like beef) can allow the body to stabilize. Also, avoiding caffiene and sugars that aggravate the condition advocate self-healing. Every morning I have a meal replacement shake made with soy milk and a tsp. of flax seed oil for omega 3’s. I don’t do caffiene or chocolate. I feel fabulous. If I had a t-bone and eggs with a double shot of espresso in the mornings, maybe I wouldn’t have gotten better.
I also have a totally normal 28 day cycle, I ovulate right in the middle and all of my exams look great. I haven’t been scoped or had surgery because I have no signs of endo, and a sonogram of my girly parts revealed no cysts. That’s why I consider myself cured.
Instead of hissing, “no you’re not cured,” you could try being happy for me.
Ray, do you have any figures on the birth rate for the U.S.A. and European countries?
It’s a hormonal imbalance that isn’t treated by introducing an additional hormonal imbalance. The pill introduces abnormal hormones.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
It often has nothing to do with hormones.
It has everything to do with having escaped endometrial cells ravaging your pelvic cavity, and can be caused by something as simple as a ceasarian.
Ray, Ray, Ray,
First, I want to apologize for all the hypocritical catholics you ran into. For all I know, I just might have been one of those two-faced catholics you ran into but I didn’t know it. So, sorry.
What gives me hope in your regard is that I have seen angrier, more seething, murderous experts who know-better-than-what-the church claims make absolute humble 180* turnarounds once they’ve calmed down and tackle each argument one at a time.
Congratulations on the baby, by the way. Hope she/he adds joy and hope to your life. Too bad she’s/he’s going to take up more of my air, my food, my water, my fossil fuels, my land etc. But you know what? It’s all good. I’m willing to share.
How about you?
It has everything to do with having escaped endometrial cells ravaging your pelvic cavity
Caused by a hormonal imbalance. Endometriosis is auto-immune in some women. I was diagnosed at 14. No trauma, no c-section.
And by the way, they don’t escape, they overgrow. And you must have excess hormones to cause this overgrowth. When hormones straighten themselves out (like after having a baby), endometriosis often stops completely.
People are awful testy about my desire to save sex, pursue natural remedies and have any children I concieve. I’m flattered that the worldly find my life so offensive.
Jacqueline, in no way do I find it offensive, and from a pro-choice point of view I certainly say do what you want in this matter.
I’d also say it’s crazy to think that another given person or people in general should do it your way.
Doug
Clarification: They overgrow up and out of the uterus and go other places, but it’s not a normal volume of endometrium that “escapes” the uterus. It’s an excess of endometrium caused by an excess of hormones that spills out of the uterus and lodges other places.
I’d also say it’s crazy to think that another given person or people in general should do it your way.
Not my way, God’s way. I didn’t invent abstinence.
And it’s not crazy to think that people should act in a way the begets good fruit, rather than the world’s way which begets heartache, disease and death.
Desiring people to have self-respect, healthy bodies and living children (rather than poisoned or dismembered children) ain’t crazy at all. I think hating on me because I have self-respect, a healthy body and would never kill any of my children (despite their affect on global warming) is pretty crazy.
That was me…Sorry.
Enigma at October 4, 2007 9:15 PM
“Besides, isn’t the planet also a gift from God? We seem to have no problem destroying or altering it.”
gosh, I’m almost tongue-tied by your extremely perceptive and truth-seeking mind. Bravo, bravo! ((and in NO way is this even a wee bit facetious! A few months back, we were graced with another PC’er who articulated with ease, just like you. Her name is Rae and she is nothing short of a marvel.))
Like you though, I got fed-up with our world, but I always fractioned it into two intermeshed thrusts …. part human and part divine. Doing this does have its own set-of-problems but it does clarify certain other phenomenon. So, let’s take a look at your quote above: God indeed did give us this gift of a planet (a universe too) – for which I am continuously astounded by its beauty(precious), and …. on and on. The second part of your quote is that something is screwy/out-of-whack here and, it is us humans causing this. So is this problem with God or with us. If we have a problem with God (including His existence), why not take-it-up-with-Him … He’s not stupid nor unaffected by us! If we’ve put-ourselves in an envfironmental corner … then we should be able to fix it. [Many decades ago some ocean-scientists tested the waters orf the Pacific and found that there was a chronic shortage of iron.
As an experiment to see what would happen, they ran a motor boat and slowly spilled about 2 lbs of iron filings over the side. Within seconds a phytoplankton bloom 25 miles long developed. (Phytoplankton are THE basic vegetation of the oceans … it is these plants that manufacture 80% of the planet’s oxygen; they also live-off carbon dioxide ((the no-no gas of modern environmentalists)) + they are THE food source of all aquatic creatures. So why not spread iron filings on ocean waters? The promotion of abortion to ‘solve’ human over-population (as Ray perceives it) is just one more human manipulation/’alteration’ that solves zip.
The continuing problem is that we are deeply flawed and do not get-rid-of-this when we grow up. We are ‘flawed’ … at the very center of who we are. Since we are flawed, how can a person be free and flawed? Perhaps freedom IS SO IMPORTANT, that is the reason why we are flawed … if we were perfect, then there would be no place to grow to! ….. Is a world of Super-men/super-women a freer/better world? If everyone had $10 million and we all lived comfortably … would we seek comfort/wealth the way we do now, as THE solution? Just as comfort/wealth are not our ‘answer’, so control is not THE answer, and definitely abortion is not any where near a solution.
“I’d also say it’s crazy to think that another given person or people in general should do it your way.”
Jacqualine: Not my way, God’s way. I didn’t invent abstinence.
We are people posting on a message board, and it indeed is your way, regardless of what you might ascribe it to. Had you grown up in a different country or family, etc., with a different religion, you would likely believe different things just as strongly as you do now.
……
And it’s not crazy to think that people should act in a way the begets good fruit, rather than the world’s way which begets heartache, disease and death.
“The world’s way” may be as good or better than yours – it depends on the situation. Not letting a woman have a legal abortion may well bring the heartache, rather than prevent it.
……
Desiring people to have self-respect, healthy bodies and living children (rather than poisoned or dismembered children) ain’t crazy at all. I think hating on me because I have self-respect, a healthy body and would never kill any of my children (despite their affect on global warming) is pretty crazy.
I don’t think you should be hated, personally, but if you advocate taking away the freedom that women have in the matter, you better believe that lots of people aren’t going to like that. Self-respect may lead a woman to end a pregnancy just as well as to continue one.
Doug
Had you grown up in a different country or family, etc., with a different religion, you would likely believe different things just as strongly as you do now.
The Holy Spirit drew me to Christ, from whence my beliefs and values flow. This is irrelevant to my environment. God would have pursued me regardless of my family, country, etc. Furthermore, my beleifs are radically different from those I was raised with and even more different from my cultural environment. As you can see, I don’t hold viewpoints that are popular. So to say that I am a mouthpiece for a pre-packaged ideology is completely false. But- right is right and wrong is wrong and I’m not the first to discern between the two- The Church was the first. This is a large part of why I became Catholic four months ago.
“The world’s way” may be as good or better than yours – it depends on the situation
AIDS, broken families, women 9 times more likely to kill themselves because they aborted, women suffering disproportionate for alcoholism, drug abuse, eating disorders traced to their abortions- that’s the fruit of extramarital sex.
Besides some ill-gotten fun that it brings, how has indiscriminate sex made the world a better place? Martial sex produces good fruit- love, bonding, commitment, children. Extramarital sex does not. It can easily be said that the world’s way is not as good or better than God’s way.
Self-respect may lead a woman to end a pregnancy just as well as to continue one.
I guess we have a differing definition of self-respect. I respect myself not to have sex with and possible produce a child with someone that I wouldn’t want to interact with for the next 18 years (and possibly the rest of my life). A woman that has sex with someone whose child she wouldn’t have doesn’t respect herself enough to choose a better partner. I only have sex with someone committed to me for life. That’s self-respect.
Not letting a woman have a legal abortion may well bring the heartache, rather than prevent it.
How many people regret their bundles of joy vs. regret killing their bundles of joy? There is heartache in life, period. But abortion is a gratuitous heartache since it’s a gratuitous procedure that results in a gratuitious death.
And by the way, they don’t escape, they overgrow. And you must have excess hormones to cause this overgrowth. When hormones straighten themselves out (like after having a baby), endometriosis often stops completely.
Posted by: Jacqueline at October 5, 2007 7:38 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nope, they can escape during a caesarian of even by having a steer step on your uterus. (Ask my friend Sally) You don’t need any kind of hormonal imbalance to get endometriosis.
Ray,
Jacqueline, my wife and I have a kid on the way, our first, due in a couple of months.
Congratulations on your first child! Despite your convictions, I hope you’ll give him or her a sibling. There’s nothing like sister/brotherhood, especially when you’re adults needing to borrow money :o) or help caring for your aging parents.
It doesn’t help that in my experience of Catholicism, and I was raised Catholic, I experienced little but hypocrisy from the Catholics around me
I apologize for what you endured. This same reason is why I denied Christianity for so long (the Bible thumpers in the Bible Belt were telling me I was going to Hell and then stealing from my locker and sleeping with my boyfriend behind my back). But I realized that I am not responsible for the immoral actions of others, only myself. So I couldn’t deny God based on some supposed followers of His that obviously weren’t His followers at all. Then I developed a personal relationship with Him apart from rules and mandates. This is the most fufilling relationship of my life. Despite your distaste towards the Bride of Christ (which many people have, seeings that there are over 30,000 Protestant denominations), I hope that you won’t let theology get in the way of having a relationship with God through Christ.
and I never, for even a moment, not even a child, believed in the infallibility of the Pope.
A lot of Christians don’t beleive in the infallibility of the Pope either. They’re called Protestants.
I also don’t believe in heaven or hell.
Just because you don’t recognize this as literal doesn’t absolve you of spending a literal eternity in them, if indeed you are wrong. You have a lot banking on being right in this instance.
You are in the crossfire between me and the Catholic Church.
I’m a recent convert to the church, in part because I respect its hard and fast commitment to morality in the face of societal opposition. The Church’s stance of birth control and abortion reaffirmed my trust in Her teaching, since God’s opinion and law doesn’t change based on market research and climate changes. I doubt God would say, “Oh, you’re poisoning the earth. It won’t sustain much more. Now it’s acceptable to start killing your kids, killing your ill and vulnerable.”
Regardless of your environmental concerns, I don’t think killing ourselves or killing our children is the right approach. My tofu-eating and recycling is pretty inconsequential when it comes to protecting the environment. But I don’t intend to stop showering or kill myself anytime soon. I also won’t kill any children God gives me (and they will shower also).
This is one of the few subjects out there that can really heat me up.
Killing human life really heats me up. I don’t beleive any cause can justify it and the end of protecting the planet doesn’t justify the means of killing our own children.
If that offends you, then too bad.
I’m not the least offended at your convictions about proper stewardship of the earth. What I am offended by was your spontaneous and uncalled for personal attack on me because I morally oppose birth control. I do think you are downright paranoid about global collapse so much so that it’s Chicken Little-esque. I also think that your priorities about killing human life so those that do survive get to enjoy a less-populated and less polluted world is morally unacceptable. There is a responsible compromise that doesn’t involved dismembering the preborn, or euthanizing the ill.
In conclusion, I’m sorry that your convictions for proper stewardship and protection of the Earth (which pleases God is not done is a manner contrary to His Will) has led you to drive a wedge between yourself and your creator. I hope you don’t think crusading for the Earth is a good trade at the expense of your soul. You can both protect the earth and please God, as long as His way is put before your own.
Nope, they can escape during a caesarian of even by having a steer step on your uterus. (Ask my friend Sally) You don’t need any kind of hormonal imbalance to get endometriosis.
And those are average everyday occurences that account for the endometriosis nearly 90 million million (most of which have never been pregnant)?
This is the exception, not the rule. The rule is an estrogen surge.
Yet another stark example showing that Alito and Roberts are NOT pro-life justices.
Of course, I and others who had looked over Alito’s previous pro-abortion decisions during his 15 years on the circuit court could have told you that he wouldn’t give pro-life decisions. Pro-life judges at least find a way to make pro-life decisions rather than giving pro-abortion ones.
There are 0 pro-life judges on the Supreme Court.
I guess we have a differing definition of self-respect. I respect myself not to have sex with and possible produce a child with someone that I wouldn’t want to interact with for the next 18 years (and possibly the rest of my life). A woman that has sex with someone whose child she wouldn’t have doesn’t respect herself enough to choose a better partner. I only have sex with someone committed to me for life. That’s self-respect.
Jacqueline, I think that is totally fine, and there’s no reason for you to do anything there but what you want. Yet many people simply don’t want kids, period, at least not at the time, regardless of who they are or are not with.
……
“Not letting a woman have a legal abortion may well bring the heartache, rather than prevent it.”
How many people regret their bundles of joy vs. regret killing their bundles of joy? There is heartache in life, period. But abortion is a gratuitous heartache since it’s a gratuitous procedure that results in a gratuitious death.
Your opinion. Meanwhile, the vast majority of women who have abortions are glad they did so, and would do the same thing again in similar circumstances.
Ann Landers had the interesting poll in the 1970s, asking if parents could have it to do over again, would they have kids? A surprising 70% answered “no.” I think the percentage would be lower now, for Americans as a whole – I think the majority of people who have kids are glad, on balance, yet it goes to show that often, you never know….
Doug
Ann Landers was (and is) strongly pro-abortion.
Meanwhile, the vast majority of women who have abortions are glad they did so, and would do the same thing again in similar circumstances.
Says who? Naral? Planned Parenthood?
John,
Speaking of flawed, you wrote:
If everyone had $10 million and we all lived comfortably …
Posted by: John McDonell at October 5, 2007 9:16 AM
If everyone had $10million, it would only be worth $10.
The only reason that $10 million is worth so much now is that so few have it.
There is no way for everyone to be idle rich.
Someone has to work.
Precisely hippie,
all of us strive to be wealthy-comfortable … why is that so???? [When traveling to the city’s center, I make a point to go through the richest neighborhood of our town … never in million years would I wish to enter the poorest regions on purpose … why is that? We are sold that wealth and comfort count … for what??]
Just where is wealth? Why do we wish to be idle … or do we wish to be idolized and envied?
Wealth means you get more than you give.
John,
I think you may have misinterpreted my post a little bit. I was attempting to undermine Jacqueline’s argument that using contraceptives is impermissible because it alters one of God’s gifts by arguing that people alter the world, another one of God’s gifts, all the time.
Of course, this argument only logically makes sense if one believes in God and thinks that the natural world is a gift from God. Since I don’t believe in either of those statements, I’m making an argument that doesn’t make sense to me logically.
“Like you though, I got fed-up with our world, but I always fractioned it into two intermeshed thrusts …. part human and part divine.”
I get frustrated with humanity and its callous disregard for the health of the planet on a regular basis.
“Doing this does have its own set-of-problems but it does clarify certain other phenomenon.”
I’m genuinely curious here, what phenomenon does it clarify and what other problems does it create?
Since you’re sharing your views, I should probably share mine as well. I deny the existence of all but the physical realm.
“The promotion of abortion to ‘solve’ human over-population (as Ray perceives it) is just one more human manipulation/’alteration’ that solves zip.”
I’ve never advocated abortion to solve over-population. I will, however, advocate birth control to help curb the issue of over-population.
“The continuing problem is that we are deeply flawed and do not get-rid-of-this when we grow up.”
Agreed. To be human is to be imperfect.
“We are ‘flawed’ … at the very center of who we are. Since we are flawed, how can a person be free and flawed?”
I don’t see how you have connected those two. Humans can never be free of their imperfections, that is true. But does that mean that humans can never be free in other respects? I think not.
“Perhaps freedom IS SO IMPORTANT, that is the reason why we are flawed … if we were perfect, then there would be no place to grow to!”
Hmmm. So we are flawed because freedom is so important. I don’t agree. In my estimation, one could be perfect and yet still need freedom to be able to develop to her fullest potential.
“….. Is a world of Super-men/super-women a freer/better world? If everyone had $10 million and we all lived comfortably … would we seek comfort/wealth the way we do now, as THE solution?”
I would argue that an empty emphasis on material fulfillment leads us to turn our backs on what is truly important in life and what makes us feel alive. Goods, luxury, wealth, and comfort cannot make a person happy. They cannot produce a fulfilling life if they are all that one seeks.
“Just as comfort/wealth are not our ‘answer’, so control is not THE answer, and definitely abortion is not any where near a solution.”
There is rarely a single correct answer to anything in life. Well, anything important at least.
Abortion can be the answer if one asks the right question.
Hi hippie,
because I’m not intimate with wealth (although I do crave it): I like to turn things around a bit and quote my brother. He said: “Apparently St Jerome (the first scripture scholar) was asked what was the difference between justice and charity. Jerome’s answer: justice is when you give the excess from what you need to survive; charity BEGINS when you give from what you need to survive.”
Under this perspective, I have not engaged a just person (especially me), let alone a charitable one. Such a very long way to travel yet ……….
John, an excellent post about wealth. It is not going to make you happy!!
Hi Enigma,
the problem this split often creates is what the Catholic Church calls angelism. It presupposes that the corporal and spiritual are almost opposed to each other and you get an over emphasis on one (usually spiritual) and shun the other (usually the body). However, this often happens these days when someone like you perceives only the physical as real and the rest illusory or as unproven.
I have to smile a bit, because it is exactly these that make life wonderful … things like: courage; fidelity; patience; respect … on and on. I suspect that you too (and Doug) thrive on such intangibles – we ALL do! Gotta admit though, proving something like courage is a frightful task – something I sure do not strive to do. Simply acknowledging this in a person is sufficient for me.
I am sorry about the concept of flaw and freedom. As I get older (and things are obviously more prone to fall apart), is freedom tied to these aspects or can I actually become freer with age. Or, can a person in prison be free? Can a severally disabled person (whose body is his/her prison cell) be free. In a similar way a person is loved not in-spite of their faults, but they are loved BECAUSE of their faults.
[To me this aspect of freedom puts the coffin nails to Doug’s understanding of freedom, as the exercising of ‘wanted’ and ‘unwanted’ status.]
John,
“the problem this split often creates is what the Catholic Church calls angelism. It presupposes that the corporal and spiritual are almost opposed to each other and you get an over emphasis on one (usually spiritual) and shun the other (usually the body).”
If I believed in the existence of both a spiritual and a physical realm, I would think that they would compliment, not oppose one another.
“However, this often happens these days when someone like you perceives only the physical as real and the rest illusory or as unproven.”
I’m kind of the antithesis of anything spiritual. And yet then I go out and inadvertently have what some would classify as spiritual experiences.
“I have to smile a bit, because it is exactly these that make life wonderful … things like: courage; fidelity; patience; respect … on and on. I suspect that you too (and Doug) thrive on such intangibles – we ALL do!”
Indeed. But I would argue that these intangibles are a part of the physical realm.
“I am sorry about the concept of flaw and freedom. As I get older (and things are obviously more prone to fall apart), is freedom tied to these aspects or can I actually become freer with age.”
Um…I have no idea. Its an intriguing thought though.
“Or, can a person in prison be free?”
I would most emphatically state that they cannot be.
“Can a severally disabled person (whose body is his/her prison cell) be free.”
Based on my own experience, I would state that this individual could not truly be free. I would be interested in hearing your take on this.
“In a similar way a person is loved not in-spite of their faults, but they are loved BECAUSE of their faults.”
I don’t know if its so much because of their faults or in spite of them. I really have a hard time believing that people care about me precisely because of my flaws. I would prefer to believe that they can look past them and recognize that my flaws do not define me.
Thanks Enigma,
for interest in something many would consider a zany concept. Such a notion as free-yet-incarcerated has for decades been taught by an RC nun who is a specialist in Zen … forget her name … if still alive would be in her 80’s by now! Her ideas intrigued me as well because I had practiced my own meditation for many years previously and one of its fall-outs was a sense of freedom … a busting-out of physical restraint … a busting out of jail (even mental jails) … not that these were not really there — these definitely were, but the bondage was much less important.
the meditation technique is very simple: Lie on a carpeted floor without a pillow or distracting noise (eg. music). If you are on your back, certain areas will be very painful. At these very spots, imagine your body slowly sinking into the floor. For me, the last of these ‘spots’ was the back of my head. So, I imagined that the floor accepted me as if it was water. First up to my ears, then up-up to the tip of my nose. Finally, I felt as if held by a string. Then I was floating … AND MY MIND FLIPPED … because I EXPERIENCED what freedom means. The experience is very personal and hard to put into words (words seem like ties, more than agents to help).
Should warn you though: even if this technique is simple – it cannot be said to be ‘easy’.
her name is Elaine MacInnes …
http://buddhistchannel.tv/index.php?id=66,2123,0,0,1,0
John McD,
A nun practicing Zen?
Without sounding critical, but isn’t that a conflict of interest? I read the link . Perhaps you could shed some light.
I’ve been studying John of the Cross for about a year now, and it would seem that going beyond what’s been defined as authentic spirituality (according to him and the Church) Zen might be pushing the envelope?
From what I’ve heard on the matter, the significant difference of these meditations is not so much the what but the Who.
Interesting that no one in the hierachy hasn’t said anything to her about “embracing another religion” according to the article.
And what of obedience?
Hi carder,
initially, I had some of the same problems, but after studying it for some decades, she is now a Master …. her Zen title, meaning teacher. She is incredibly down-to-earth. The practice of Zen (meditation +) does not necessarily incorporate the more ‘spiritual’ aspects – Buddhism …. apparently even this is a much more secular practice than any Western concept of religion … we would have a very tough time noting any kind of Western religiosity at all.
I think in many ways, it is akin to the practice of Tse Chi.
…. should be tai chi (sorry)
John,
That sounds interesting. I’ll have to try it some time.
Normally, I’m fairly terrible at meditation. Well, except for mindfulness meditation.
I guess my views on freedom are a bit more traditional. I do believe that, ultimately, freedom is determined by the mind but that the body must be free to enable the mind to find the highest state freedom.
Ann Landers was (and is) strongly pro-abortion.
Could be, Bethany, but this was over 10,000 people responding, 70% of whom said they would not have kids, had they to do over again. It wasn’t what Ann thought, it was what newspaper readers though. Heck, Ann was surprised.
Doug