Was Lisa Madigan misleading?
Three aldermen in the City of Aurora have introduced a parental notification ordinance so the local Planned Parenthood could not abort underage girls without their parents knowing.
The State of IL passed a parental notification law in 1995, but it laid dormant 12 years awaiting judicial bypass rules, which finally came from the IL Supreme Court a year ago. The Supremes instructed rabidly pro-abort Attorney General Lisa Madigan (she voted as state senator against IL’s Born Alive Infant Protection Act) to have the injunction overturned. When she tried a delay tactic, they wrote her a directive to knock it off, which she did. The ball has now been in U.S. District Court Judge David Coar’s court several months to decide whether state courts are ready to handle any need for judicial bypass.
So there is still no IL parental notification law. Back to Aurora. Madigan was asked her legal opinion on the city ordinance. In a letter stating she thought it was illegal, she also said this (click to enlarge):
What do you think Madigan was stating?
She’s sayin’ the state has the authority, and that the General Assembly says it’s the only authority, thus the city can’t make up its own rules.
Doug
It depends where you go. One of my girlfriends had an abortion at Planned Parenthood and I’m pretty sure we paid about $40 on a sliding scale. Another girlfriend went to a private practitioner and we paid $200, sliding scale. I can’t remember what the specific procedure was, but both were done at the beginning of the second trimester, if that makes an impact on the costs involved.
Posted by: Doug at October 30, 2007 5:39 PM
Doug, I hope you don’t mind my post transfer. This sheds a little light on why you are so PC. You and Hal.
One of my girlfriends had an abortion at Planned Parenthood …..Another girlfriend went to a private practitioner
I knew it. I just knew it.
Heather, no problem with the post, but what do you think that has to do with being PC? I was just showing an example of how the charges can be vastly different.
Or, are you thinking that that was my own personal story? It wasn’t – it was a quote from the site at the link I posted above the quote.
There have been no abortions in my family and I’ve never been involved with a woman or girl who had one.
Doug
Bethany, So did I. Doug, have you ever felt regret?
There have been no abortions in my family and I’ve never been involved with a woman or girl who had one.
Then what in the world got you interested in the topic of abortion to begin with? :-S
Doug, are you sure about that? No abortions from girlfriends/wives?
I think you got it backward. we had an abortion because we’re pro-choice (and wanted one), we’re not pro-choice because we terminated a pregnancy.
Bethany, right. I’m not buying it. There must be a good reason. Doug, I’d also like to know why you post under the names of “Rosa” and why did you post as Barbara Streisand earlier? Are you a male or a female?
Right Hal. After your wife’s abortions you figured you had better be able to justify both of your wrong actions with the word “choice.”
Hal, come on. It’s not that your “pro-choice” that I find puzzling if you hadn’t had personal experience with abortion. It’s the idea that you would stand there and debate it day after day, if you had no experience with it. Why defend something so strongly, if you’ve had no experience with it? Obviously, in your case, the reason you spend time debating it is directly because of your experience with them. You may have been pro-choice before the abortions, but I seriously doubt that you would have defended your thoughts on it on a message board day after day before the abortions. Correct me if I’m wrong.
We were both pro-choice decades before even meeting each other.
Yes, that’s what I said. Were you debating every day on message boards to defend abortion before your abortions though?
Hal, you have also mentioned that you and your wife never discuss the abortions. I find that hard to believe. I have a friend who aborted 7 years ago. She still brings it up to me, and she’s just my friend.
Heather, just trying to be funny with the other names. My real first name is Doug and I’m 48 and I live in Ohio though I’m rarely home, working all over the dang place.
You all were saying “hi so-and-so” and “hello Heather” so here comes “Barbara Streisand” and she says “Hello, Dolly.”
Maybe not your brand of humor.
Yes, I am sure about the no abortions. That’s because I know my wife and sister well and have known my girlfriends well – there haven’t been many. I don’t think any had abortions and I do think they would tell me. I’ve never been one to give anybody any grief for it.
I realize that “never say never” may apply and that I’m just not aware of one or some, but I really don’t think that’s the case.
One girlfriend in Canada had had a son when she was a teenager, and she gave him up for adoption. I was going with her when the boy was 17 years old, and the rules there were that the child can find out who the mother is if he wants to, and my girlfriend was a bit freaked out by the idea. She was curious but also somewhat fearful of how it would be.
That’s as close as I’ve come personally to most of what we talk about here.
If you’re pro-life then you should not give ANY SUPPORT WHATSOEVER to a “parental notification law”.
Its an evil law that further legitimizes the slauhgter of innocent babies and will be used as precedent to support the ongoing murder of babies for 100+ years to come!
If a law ends with “…and then you can kill the baby.” then its is a PRO-ABORTION LAW and you are not to support it but must speak out against such a law because it fundamentally UNDERMINES the personhood of the preborn.
For those who don’t know, a parental notification law for murdering children means that if a girl is under 18 then its ALLRIGHT TO GET AN ABORTION as long as she notifies a parent OR goes behind her parent’s back to a judge and gets a judicial bypass.
Parental concent for abortion is just as vile and evil as parental notification for rape. If you wouldn’t support parental notification for rape, then how can you support parental notification for murder which is a crime far worse than rape????
Was glad to hear former congressman BOB DORNAN come out strongly against such bills as parental notification for slaughtering babies on today’s Bob Enyart LIVE which should be available here @ 9 ET.
Doug, then why not become pro life? It’s easy. I promise. How can you defend something that has never affected you personally?
Yes, that’s what I said. Were you debating every day on message boards to defend abortion before your abortions though?
Posted by: Bethany at October 30, 2007 6:21 PM
-well, the internet didn’t yet exist. But I get your point.
Hal, you have also mentioned that you and your wife never discuss the abortions. I find that hard to believe. I have a friend who aborted 7 years ago. She still brings it up to me, and she’s just my friend.
Posted by: heather at October 30, 2007 6:21 PM
–Nope, it never comes up. We have full and busy lives.
Well, my friend has a full and busy life too, but she still mentions the abortion from time to time.
“Maybe not your brand of humor.”
I appreciate your brand of humor Doug, even though we disagree mightily about many things.
Doug, then why not become pro life? It’s easy. I promise. How can you defend something that has never affected you personally?
Posted by: heather at October 30, 2007 6:24 PM
–Heather you can’t mean that. Many people have opinions on abortion debate who have never had to face the issue personally. I, for example, had opinions for years before the question ever effected me personally.
Bethany, the abortion argument is interesting to me because it gets people fired up and it also takes us all down to the unprovable assumptions we all make.
I’ve always liked to argue, and within America Online I found message boards where people debated topics and in manners from the massively complex and reasoned to the ludicrous and simple.
It taught me just how different people can be, and how differently we can think – far more than I’d ever known before.
At first I pretty much just raised Cain with those I felt were nutjobs, but as time went along I learned some profound things about what is true for all of us, what some of us want, etc.
Down at a basic level, I look at suffering. I see the suffering of a woman who wants to end a pregnancy, and who is legally denied from doing so, as much greater than that of the unborn (if there’s any in the first place) and as much greater than that of people who are opposed to abortion.
I know it’s argued all the time, but I see less suffering with having the way things are, rather than with having abortion be further restricted or banned. I am for less suffering.
Doug
Doug, less suffering means ending abortion. Hal, why couldn’t you view a simple little abortion video? You are so pro abortion. Have been for years, huh? Don’t you want to watch what you stand for?
Doug, you have just admitted that you will argue just to argue. Are you really that bored?
Doug, then why not become pro life? It’s easy. I promise. How can you defend something that has never affected you personally?
Heather, because I want to see women stay as free as the are in the matter. I want that more than I want to see every pregnancy continued.
I am not saying that abortion is “good.” From several standpoints it’s preferable not to be pregnant in the first place – risk, cost, and of course one may have feelings and beliefs of it being wrong, undesirable, etc.
I would rather there be zero unwanted pregnancies. Yet reality is that they exist, and at that point I want women to be able to do what they want.
Doug
Not bored, Heather.
Doug, you want women to do what they want? Even if it means being super irresponsible to get what they want?….I disagree. What about the baby that in conceived as they do what they want? Now they don’t want to be pregnant, so, again, they do what they want.
Don’t you want to watch what you stand for?
Posted by: heather at October 30, 2007 6:36 PM
–I think people should have heart surgery if they need it, but I don’t want to watch it.
Bobby, bless you – you are a very good man and I’m sure a great mate and future father.
One very *real* moment from this past week – your reaction to the picture of “Baby Malachi.” You and I do indeed disagree in large measure about some things, but yeah, that was sad.
Doug
Doug, you want women to do what they want? Even if it means being super irresponsible to get what they want?….I disagree. What about the baby that in conceived as they do what they want? Now they don’t want to be pregnant, so, again, they do what they want.
Well, Heather, they are not responsible to what you/i> want.
Yes, you can say that there’s a “baby” there in the case of a pregnancy, but I still prefer that the woman can have an abortion if she wants to, up to a point in gestation.
Hal, you wouldn’t even watch “The Silent Scream.” The posted part was not bloody or even all that graphic. It was all on the ultrasound. Just some “tissue removal.” What’s wrong with that?
Doug, if the picture of baby Malachi was “sad” then you should start rejecting abortion. This is happening 4000 times a day in the USA, and it’s just not acceptable. Doug, please reconsider your position on abortion. Come on neighbor!
Hal, it also took you some time to come up with this as your reason not to watch.
“that [baby Malachi] was sad.”
That stuff just kills me, man. I can’t look at it without starting to tear up.
Doug, here is a video on an actual first trimester abortion. It’s called “The Choice Blues.” Please watch it. You will see small hands, arms, and legs pulled out of the woman’s open cervix.
heather- some people thrive on debate. It’s not out of boredom- it’s more like a hobby.
Bobby, he was so mangled.
Erin, I know. However, you are also here because of your personal experience. Hal is here because of his.
heather- I was very active in the pro-choice cause before my abortion. SAWRTC just didn’t seem to start yelling about you guys until afterwards.
Doug, then why not become pro life? It’s easy. I promise. How can you defend something that has never affected you personally?
Posted by: heather at October 30, 2007 6:24 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I know just so many young girls who have used abortion so they wouldn’t have to throw their lives away – you know – become ignorant, uneducated, unemployable Wefare-sucking machines with no future for themselves or their children. You see these women fall into traps like alcoholism and raise their children in totally dysfunctional homes.
Just the idea of ending up that way – a fate worse than death – is the kind of thing that made me pro-choice.
And I know of many girls who had abortions, and threw their lives away anyway.
I would love to see Robert Dornan run for President! I don’t think he will, but he’d be great if he did.
I also know of a woman who aborted 7 times. She is now sterile thanks to that “choice.” She has a daughter, and she’s always drunker than a skunk. So, did the abortions cure her of her alcoholism? Nope. In fact, I’m sure that the abortions contributed to her condition. She almost drank herself to death. She also subjects her daughter to verbal abuse. She has an education. Heck, she had that before her abortions. What’s your point? No. Pro choicers don’t drink.
Hi Bobby! Isn’t it almost “D” (delivery) Day? How exciting!!!
You’re right, Heather, abortions don’t cure alcoholism. Does this surprise you?
Somg, no.
I know just so many young girls who have used abortion so they wouldn’t have to throw their lives away – you know – become ignorant, uneducated, unemployable Wefare-sucking machines with no future for themselves or their children. You see these women fall into traps like alcoholism and raise their children in totally dysfunctional homes.
Just the idea of ending up that way – a fate worse than death – is the kind of thing that made me pro-choice.
Posted by: Laura at October 30, 2007 7:13 PM
There are just as many that turn their lives around because of an unexpected child. They want to make a better life for the baby and do things they normally wouldn’t have (like finish college) to insure a better life for their baby.
Bobby, when is the baby due? Have you named her yet?
There are just as many that turn their lives around because of an unexpected child. They want to make a better life for the baby and do things they normally wouldn’t have (like finish college) to insure a better life for their baby.
Posted by: Kristen at October 30, 2007 7:27 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Nope. The true stats on teen motherhood are heinous. Both the mothers and their children are fairly doomed:
Babies of teen mothers have 21% higher probability of low birth weight, increasing possibilities for infant death, blindness, deafness, chronic respiratory problems, mental retardation, mental illness, and cerebral palsy. It doubles chances for dyslexia, hyperactivity, and other disabilities.1
Teen mothers start parenthood with few viable economic skills. Forty-one percent of mothers under 18 finish high school, compared to 61% of 20- to 21-year-old first mothers. A scant 1.5% of teen mothers earn a college degree by age 30.1
Making matters worse, in the past 25 years, the median income for college graduates increased 13%, while the median income for high school dropouts decreased 30%.1
Frighteningly, babies of high school dropouts have an eight times higher risk of being killed than those of college graduates.3
Teen mothers are mostly single parents. Eighty percent of fathers do not marry mothers and pay less than $800 annually in child support, important income for poor children.
Children living apart from fathers are five times more likely to be poor than children from two-parent homes. Children of uninvolved fathers are twice as likely to drop out of school, abuse alcohol or drugs or go to jail, and four times more likely to need help for emotional or behavioral problems.1
So, if teen mothers have no functional family of origin, no
Well, I can understand that post, but you cannot guarentee that the post abortive woman won’t end up a “welfare sucker” herself. She just might wind up with AIDS. My old friend collects disability. Don’t ask me why. She’s claiming a nervous breakdown. She lost it in the turn after her hysterectomy. *sound of car breaks, crashing and shattering glass*…. Nope. Who can predict? That’s someone who’s life is a mess.
My point? Women who have abortions aren’t always better off. Sometimes I think they end up cursed. I can’t help but to see the dysfunction in their lives.
My point? Women who have abortions aren’t always better off. Sometimes I think they end up cursed. I can’t help but to see the dysfunction in their lives.
Posted by: heather at October 30, 2007 7:52 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Do you have any statistics, or do we just have to listen to those stories you glean from bad daytime talk-TV shows?
yes. I’m afraid you would have to listen to me drone on. I’ll spare you tonight.
Do they become alcoholics, Heather?
yes.
people all react differently to the circumstances in their lives. Many women never get over an abortion. Many women also feel what they did was the right thing at the time and feel only relief after one. For some women, a baby changes their lives in a good way. For some, a baby and being a single mom destroys them.
Since women are all so unique, and competant enough to make their own descions, I am PRO-CHOICE. Emphasis on CHOICE. I have never had an abortion. I have only slept with one man. I doubt I will ever be in that situation where I need an abortion. I love babies and hope me and Mister DrunkenFlicka will have lots of them when we are ready. But I am so damn glad abortion is there for me if my back is against the wall. Even if I dont choose it.
I am also Pro-Choice because Pro-Lifers are liars and notorious manipulators of the truth, and I can never support dishonesty, especially propaganda-dishonestly that is just meant to lure people in like sheep. I am Pro-Choice because Pro-Lifers have grotesquely patronizing views of women and treat them like indecisive children or victims, where Pro-Choicers respect women, their intelligence, their autonomy, and treat them like adults capable of being responsible for their choices and having acurate medical information. Look at the contrast between a site like this or American Life Leauge or Human Life International and RHReality Check or good Pro-choice sites.
DF, whatever. @@
Pro-Lifers have grotesquely patronizing views of women and treat them like indecisive children or victims, where Pro-Choicers respect women, their intelligence, their autonomy, and treat them like adults capable of being responsible for their choices and having acurate medical information. Look at the contrast between a site like this or American Life Leauge or Human Life International and RHReality Check or good Pro-choice sites.
Posted by: DrunkenFlicka at October 30, 2007 8:37 PM************************************************************************ What did you say? We treat you like a child? Well, stop acting like a child when it comes to your vagina/reproductive system. Exercise some self control. Nobody wants to babysit you. Abortion is terribly irresponsible!
DrunkenFlicka,
Look at the contrast between a site like this or American Life Leauge or Human Life International and RHReality Check or good Pro-choice sites.
You lost me here…
American Life League is a pro life site.
I miss Jasper. I see his “Quotes of the Day” but I never seem him anymore…
Heather, abortion has never affected me personally either, yet I’m still pro choice, and adamantly so, but am fully capable of comprehending the reason why people are pro-life. It all depends upon view points and eventually comes down to whose rights trump whose.
where is jasper? i miss him too.
It all depends upon view points and eventually comes down to whose rights trump whose.
Posted by: Dan at October 30, 2007 8:54 PM
Who’s rights trump who’s? Nope.
Laura: bad daytime talk-TV shows
Some of the women on Jerry Springer have big hair.
meant whose [sp]
ok heather, so whose life is worth more? The mother or the fetus?
You guys don’t believe my stories? I swear to God on my children’s lives that they’re all true. You just wish that they weren’t. Wise up. There are 1.3 million abortions per year in the US. I’m sure you guys know them too.
Dan, both.
heather, you cant always get things both ways, and that certainly holds true for abortion.
Dan, come again.
Day time talk shows? No. I like CNN.
“Isn’t it almost “D” (delivery) Day?”
Oh yeah! She’s due on November 8. We won’t have a name until she’s born, I think. Gotta see her first.
you cant always have both. If both are valued equally, than why dont pro lifers advocate the death sentence or life sentences for punishments if abortion ever became illegal?
OOOOOO, that’s right around the corner! Please send piccys.
Dan, Oh I DO!!!
Hi Heather
jaaaaaaasssppper! You guys kicked our butts out of the World Series…Congratulations though.
Dan, please go to the Peyton Place post. You can see where I have expressed myself.
lol, heather, kicking your butts is an understatement ;)
and you are one of few, i can assure you that.
well, i just finished my school work and sending out my college apps, so I need to go shower, and then im gunna read and go to sleep.
Nothing against you guys, Im just loving Wicked, so I want to finish it ASAP
gnight all.
No. I’m not. Now, are you from Boston,Dan?
Hey Dan. A priori, in a society where abortion is illegal, the women who aborts her child is committing murder and hence should be punished as a murder would be. However, most pro-lifers emphasis the mitigating factors that almost always will be present in abortion cases. These are things like their level of knowledge as well as outside pressure. In fact, we in the pro-life movement are really only interested in putting away the abortionists, not punishing the women. I think a lot of the understanding is that the law would be willing to lessen or even drop an aborting women’s sentence for information leading to the arrest (and possibly conviction) of the abortionist. I guess the same kind of thing happens with small time drug dealers- they get a smaller sentence for information leading to the arrest of a big time drug dealer. I hope that makes sense. God love you, my friend.
“OOOOOO, that’s right around the corner! Please send piccys.”
Oh yeah, I certainly will. I can’t wait!
And Dan, good luck with the college apps. Let me know where you get in and, of course, where you decide to go.
Thanks Heather… Cleveland put up a better fight than Colorado…
jasper, did they? Our teams always seem to do this. They get sooo far, and then they just give up. I don’t get it, but I’m not a sports fan either. Anyway, I hope you guys take it all the way! I’m rooting for you.
jasper, did they? Our teams always seem to do this. They get sooo far, and then they just give up. I don’t get it, but I’m not a sports fan either. Anyway, I hope you guys take it all the way! I’m rooting for you.
Posted by: heather at October 30, 2007 9:43 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yes, clearly you spend all day watching the news channels…
Heather, it was Episode #9,485 of “Cleveland Teams Find A Way To Lose.”
Heather,
I’d simply like to dispute your contention that everyone who’s on this site (or at least everyone who supports abortion rights) has had previous experience with abortion. I’ve had no such experience in my life.
Wicked? Gregory Maguire’s Wicked??
Thanks Heather, we finished off Colorado 4 games straight to take the World series. It took all seven games to get through Cleveland…. Now the New England Patriots are kicking butt. Big game against Indy this weekend, both teams are undefeated…
Laura,
I was intrigued by your annotated comments, so I looked a few of them up, I will look up the rest later. Since some of this material was referenced by the *2* people who spoke at Aurora’s council meeting last week, I’ll look them up.
But one interesting thing caught my eye, so I thought I would post a quick followup. #1, which I think you referred to the most, was paid for by :
http://www.teenpregnancy.org/
Which has on it’s board none other than :
Vanessa Cullins, MD, MPH, MBA
Vice President for Medical Affairs
Planned Parenthood Federation of America, Inc.
And :
Whoopi Goldberg
Actress
Trustee Emeriti
And :
Katharine Graham (1917-2001)
Chairman
Washington Post Company
And :
Judy McGrath
Chairman and CEO
MTV Networks
Not exactly a conservative brain trust, to say the least. But I did find this one interesting :
Sister Mary Rose McGeady
former President and CEO
Covenant House
(also an Emeriti)
Covenant House, even though they aren’t in Chicago, rang a bell. So when I looked them up, guess what. Among other things, they are a crisis pregnancy center. In fact, their website ( http://www.covenanthouse.org/pro_motherchild.html ) has this wonderful splash when you pull up the Mother/Child Program :
Mother/Child Program
The Covenant House Mother/Child Program provides services to homeless pregnant women and young mothers with children. The purpose of the program is to provide long-term housing, health services, counseling, employment training and parenting skills workshops to young mothers so they and their children can look forward to a brighter, more stable future.
Covenant House staff and volunteers work intensively with young mothers, addressing topics common to pregnant and parenting teenagers such as the need to lead a healthy lifestyle, child bearing, single parenthood, day care, schooling and employment.
Meet Maxine
Maxine came to Covenant House at the age of 16 — pregnant and the survivor of a decade of physical abuse. Through the Regional Training Center, she obtained an entry-level position with a law firm as a Data Entry Clerk. Her daughter began receiving Early Intervention Services at the Infant Toddler Center.
Six months after coming to Rights of Passage she earned her GED and as a result was given a promotion at work as well as a salary increase. She is an extremely loving and caring mother who often baby-sits two to three other children in addition to her daughter. Her daughter even received an award for the best behaved toddler at the Infant Toddler Day Care Center graduation.
Ultimately, Maxine found her own apartment and embarked on a life as the capable and independent mother she never had.
So this would seem to be the antithesis of your point. When given proper support, young mothers can be most wonderfully successful. So why not give them the support (and the hand up) they deserve, rather than the quick and deadly choice of an abortion ?
Meanwhile, the betting public at INTRADE thinks Ohio will go Democratic in ’08. If that happens, it means, the Dem’s nominee–whoever she is–wins!
The big question is whether or not the Democrats’ gains in the Senate will make enough of a pro-choice majority to break a filibuster of FOCA. Not forgetting that at least two Republicans, Arlen Specter and Olympia Snowe, will support FOCA and vote to break the filibuster.
We’ll be able to stop fighting over Supreme Court justices.
From http://feministing.com/
“Missouri Governor Matt Blunt has put an anti-choice group in charge of convening a task force in his name to investigate the “impact of abortion on women.” Of course, every member of the task force is anti-choice. I’m sure this will be an “objective overview of the impact of abortion.”
“The forced-pregnancy movement uses tactics like this — bullshit committees stacked with anti-choicers and testimony from biased “experts” — to introduce inaccurate or slanted information about abortion into the public record, which can be used to prop up anti-choice legislation and legal decisions. So trust me, these task forces are a big deal. ”
Day time talk shows? No. I like CNN.
Posted by: heather at October 30, 2007 9:09 PM
………………………………..
I Like Ellen.
Hey Dan. A priori, in a society where abortion is illegal, the women who aborts her child is committing murder and hence should be punished as a murder would be. However, most pro-lifers emphasis the mitigating factors that almost always will be present in abortion cases. These are things like their level of knowledge as well as outside pressure. In fact, we in the pro-life movement are really only interested in putting away the abortionists, not punishing the women. I think a lot of the understanding is that the law would be willing to lessen or even drop an aborting women’s sentence for information leading to the arrest (and possibly conviction) of the abortionist. I guess the same kind of thing happens with small time drug dealers- they get a smaller sentence for information leading to the arrest of a big time drug dealer. I hope that makes sense. God love you, my friend.
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at October 30, 2007 9:22 PM
………………………….
Being that a priory is a religous establishment, I find it interesting that you feel that such an establishment is/should be involved in law enforcement. Do you not find the concept of inquisition repugnant Bobby?
Doug, you want women to do what they want? Even if it means being super irresponsible to get what they want?….I disagree. What about the baby that in conceived as they do what they want? Now they don’t want to be pregnant, so, again, they do what they want.
Posted by: heather at October 30, 2007 6:42 PM
………………
This doesn’t make sense. If one puts a great deal of effort into anything, irresponsibility becomes a matter of opinion/judgement.
Tripping out over what a conceptus might want if it could want is silly, has nothing to address to the real lives of women and does nothing to address the reality of gestation.
Hal, you wouldn’t even watch “The Silent Scream.” The posted part was not bloody or even all that graphic. It was all on the ultrasound. Just some “tissue removal.” What’s wrong with that?
Posted by: heather at October 30, 2007 6:48 PM
……………………
Scarey Movie was such a better ‘stab’ at a horror flick.
My point? Women who have abortions aren’t always better off. Sometimes I think they end up cursed. I can’t help but to see the dysfunction in their lives.
Posted by: heather at October 30, 2007 7:52 PM
……………………………….
Cursed by whom? You? Do you consider yourself to be a witch?
COMA begins with a cool 1970s-style d&c.
And right now I’m watching THE UNBORN on the SciFi Channel. With Brooke Adams.
Does anyone else remember IT’S ALIVE?
SoMG,
No wonder you’re so twisted. You should try the Bells of St Mary or the Song of Bernadette. You know, you are what you eat…
Dan,
ok heather, so whose life is worth more? The mother or the fetus?
We’re not advocating killing the mother. So the question “Whose life is worth more” doesn’t really apply.
The only “life” on the line is the childs. The real question, I believe, is “Which right is more important? The right to do anything that you want? or the Right to live?”
And I’m pretty sure you know our answer. I wish all the questions in life were that easy.
HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY,
HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY,
HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY,
HAPPY HALLOWEEN!!!!!!!!!
Sally asked “Do you consider yourself to be a witch?”…No, but my husband sure thinks that I am! ROFLMAO!
Laura, I can’t help but to laugh. I am not on welfare, and I do have an education. Actually, Jacque has found a way that I could actually prove this to you. Why do you keep focusing on me as your “welfare poster child?” If you would like to ask me something, please feel free.
Doug, are you serious? [about the sports thing]
SoMG: Meanwhile, the betting public at INTRADE thinks Ohio will go Democratic in ’08. If that happens, it means, the Dem’s nominee–whoever she is–wins!
Heather, good morning, and don’t forget – no voting more than once in our Buckeye state.
Doug
MK, to SoMG: You should try the Bells of St Mary….
Ha! Gotta love it…..
Happy Hallowe’en!
Hey, does this mean Zeke is gonna blast off with posts about how bad Hallowe’en is?
Doug
Heather, heck yes I’m serious.
Cleveland had Boston 3-1 in games. All they had to do was win one more.
“Okay guys, how can we manage to lose three games in a row – any suggestions?”
There were plenty, as there usually are, and they implemented a few of them.
Doug
Happy Halloween. Doug, why would they implement it? Oh, and don’t forget the Browns/aka Clowns.
Happy Halloween everyone.
Tuesday, November 29, 2005
Abortionist Hagiography
Amy Welborn has the loving LA Times profile of Dr. William F. Harrison. At 2,100 words, it’s a pretty fair-sized devotion for a newspaper. It is, I’m afraid, more horrifying than you could even imagine:
Now 70, Harrison estimates he’s terminated at least 20,000 pregnancies. . . .
Harrison warns every patient he sees that abortion may be illegal one day. He wants to stir them to activism, but most women respond mildly.
“I can’t imagine the country coming to that,” says Kim, 35, in for her second abortion in two years. . . .
He calls himself an “abortionist” and says, “I am destroying life.”
But he also feels he’s giving life: He calls his patients “born again.”
“When you end what the woman considers a disastrous pregnancy, she has literally been given her life back,” he says. . . .
His Fayetteville Women’s Clinic occupies a once-elegant home dating to the 1940s; the first-floor surgery looks like it was a parlor. Thick blue curtains block the windows and paintings of butterflies and flowers hang on the walls. The radio is tuned to an easy-listening station.
An 18-year-old with braces on her teeth is on the operating table, her head on a plaid pillow, her feet up in stirrups, her arms strapped down at her sides. A pink blanket is draped over her stomach. She’s 13 weeks pregnant, at the very end of the first trimester. She hasn’t told her parents.
A nurse has already given her a local anesthetic, Valium and a drug to dilate her cervix; Harrison prepares to inject Versed, a sedative, in her intravenous line. The drug will wipe out her memory of everything that happens during the 20 minutes she’s in the operating room. It’s so effective that patients who return for a follow-up exam often don’t recognize Harrison.
The doctor is wearing a black turtleneck, brown slacks and tennis shoes. He snaps his gum as he checks the monitors displaying the patient’s pulse rate and oxygen count.
“This is not going to be nearly as hard as you anticipate,” he tells her.
She smiles wanly. Keeping up a constant patter ? he asks about her brothers, her future birth control plans, whether she’s good at tongue twisters ? Harrison pulls on sterile gloves.
“How’re you doing up there?” he asks.
“Doing OK.”
“Good girl.”
Harrison glances at an ultrasound screen frozen with an image of the fetus taken moments before. Against the fuzzy black-and-white screen, he sees the curve of a head, the bend of an elbow, the ball of a fist.
“You may feel some cramping while we suction everything out,” Harrison tells the patient. . . .
When he’s done, Harrison performs another ultrasound. The screen this time is blank but for the contours of the uterus. “We’ve gotten everything out of there,” he says. . . .
For the few women who arrive ambivalent or beset by guilt, Harrison’s nurse has posted statistics on the exam-room mirror: One out of every four pregnant women in the U.S. chooses abortion. A third of all women in this country will have at least one abortion by the time they’re 45.
“You think there’s room in hell for all those women?” the nurse will ask. . . .
Amanda, a 20-year-old administrative assistant, says it’s not the obstacles that surprise her ? it’s how normal and unashamed she feels as she prepares to end her first pregnancy.
“It’s an everyday occurrence,” she says as she waits for her 2:30 p.m. abortion. “It’s not like this is a rare thing.”
Amanda hasn’t told her ex-boyfriend that she’s 15 weeks pregnant with his child. She hasn’t told her parents, either, though she lives with them.
“I figured it was my responsibility,” she says.
She regrets having to pay $750 for the abortion, but Amanda says she does not doubt her decision. “It’s not like it’s illegal. It’s not like I’m doing anything wrong,” she says. . . .
His first patient of the day, Sarah, 23, says it never occurred to her to use birth control, though she has been sexually active for six years. When she became pregnant this fall, Sarah, who works in real estate, was in the midst of planning her wedding. “I don’t think my dress would have fit with a baby in there,” she says. . . .
The last patient of the day, a 32-year-old college student named Stephanie, has had four abortions in the last 12 years. She keeps forgetting to take her birth control pills. Abortion “is a bummer,” she says, “but no big stress.”
Harrison does not get frustrated with such patients.
He has learned to focus on the facts he considers most important: This woman does not want to be pregnant. He can give her back control of her life and keep a child from coming into the world unwanted. He believes in this so strongly, he waives his fees for women who can’t come up with the money.
9:51 AM | posted by Jonathan V. Last Permalink
Posted by: heather at October 27, 2007 1:04 PM
Laura, I just cut and pasted this from another thread. Do these women really seem like college material to you? They can’t even seem to figure out how to prevent an unwanted pregnancy to begin with.
The Browns ruined Tim Couch’s career, I will never root for them again (unless they’re playing the Steelers).
And you don’t have to have had an abortion or had a wife/girlfriend who has had an abortion to be able to argue for choice. I haven’t had one, and I am pro choice and would defend a woman’s right to bodily autonomy any day.
JKeller,
I too would fight for a womens right to bodily autonomy. I don’t want to see her raped, beaten, or kept from getting treatment for breast cancer (as is being done in Saudi Arabia).
However, the right to abortion, supercedes being for a right to bodily autonomy and crosses over into the right to take another person’s life.
I would defend a womans right to bodily autonomy.
You would defend her right to kill her own children.
JKeller, I’m not picking on you, but you asked me a question from another post. I was asking Hal if he had ever watched the abortion video “The Choice Blues.” You responded with “Why? Do you want us to feel guilty?” Did you ever watch it? If not, why not? Also, why would you feel guilt? I don’t feel guilty about stealing, because I don’t steal.
My point. If you have never personally aborted, there shouldn’t be any guilt. If you feel some guilt over what you support, perhaps it’s time to rethink your position.
Doug (AKA He who chooses his words very carefully, yet still can’t outsmart God)
Val sent me this today, and I sooooo thought of you…;)
Be careful what you wish for.
******************************************************
An atheist was walking through the woods.
“What majestic trees”!
‘What powerful rivers”!
“What beautiful animals”!
He said to himself.
As he was walking alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him. He turned to look. He saw a 7-foot grizzly bear charge towards him.
He ran as fast as he could up the path. He looked over his shoulder & saw that the bear was closing in on him.
He looked over his shoulder again, & the bear was even closer. He tripped & fell on the ground. He rolled over to pick himself up but saw that the bear was right on top of him, reaching for him with his left paw & raising his right paw to strike him.
At that instant the Atheist cried out, “Oh my God!”
Time Stopped.
The bear froze.
The forest was silent.
As a bright light shone upon the man, a voice came out of the sky. “You deny my existence for all these years, teach others I don’t exist and even credit creation to cosmic accident.” “Do you expect me to help you out of this predicament? Am I to count you as a believer”?
The atheist looked directly into the light, “It would be hypocritical of me to suddenly ask you to treat me as a Christian now, but perhaps you could make the BEAR a Christian?”
“Very Well,” said the voice.
The light went out. The sounds of the forest resumed. And the bear dropped his right paw, brought both paws together, bowed his head & spoke:
“Lord bless this food, which I am about to receive from thy bounty through Christ our Lord, Amen.”
JKeller,
I find it interesting that pro-choicers are forever singing the praises of education, education, education.
If only people knew about birth control, there would be less pregnancies! We need to EDUCATE them.
But when we agree and say, yes, and we need to educate them as to what abortion is and what abortion does…suddenly education is simply a venue for producing guilt.
If you deny that educating people on birth control is the same as promoting sex, then why is showing a video of an abortion all about promoting guilt.
We both want the truth shown. Why should we look at your “truth” if you refuse to look at ours?
I know just so many young girls who have used abortion so they wouldn’t have to throw their lives away – you know – become ignorant, uneducated, unemployable Wefare-sucking machines with no future for themselves or their children. You see these women fall into traps like alcoholism and raise their children in totally dysfunctional homes.
Just the idea of ending up that way – a fate worse than death – is the kind of thing that made me pro-choice.
Posted by: Laura at October 30, 2007 7:13 PM
Laura,
I have to say that many share your attitude that women who get pregnant young are losers. I think we should be tolerant of others. I think your stereotyping of them is cruel and sadly this kind of thinking leads to the kind of descrimination and derision that most hurts these women. Teen moms are beautiful and wonderful people who love their kids and want what is best for them. They are just like we are. They have hopes and dreams. They care about others. They are just as good as everyone else. They may not share your values exactly, but their lives are not a fate worse than death. Their lives are filled with hope and joy. Their lives are not thrown away. They find parenthood fulfilling. It makes their lives worth living. They are entitled to their feelings and they are entitled to the same respect as everyone else.
Actually, Heather is trying to instill guilt, but it’s not working.
Nobody wants to watch the stupid video because it’s revolting.
For instance, I don’t like turds. I don’t want to watch videos of turds. I really don’t want to watch a video close-up of someone producing a turd – even if it’s set to music.
I’m not ashamed of turds.
I have no problem admitting that I myself have life experience with turds, I have no guilt related to turds, and if it’s THAT important to you, I’ll hold on to the next one as long as I can and try to find it a nice home.
I still don’t want to watch the video.
Sally,
“Being that a priory is a religous establishment”
I wrote “a priori,” not “a priory.” According to dictionary.com (definition 3), a priori means “not based on prior study or examination; nonanalytic.” So for example, another sentence one would use it is “A priori, everyone is innocent until proven guilty.” It’s just kind of like what we know without really studying something. So it has nothing to do with religion. God love you, Sally.
hippie, thank you. This attitude is what causes many young women to lose hope. So, they kill their children.
Laura, do you have a problem with admitting that you can act like a turd sometimes? Um, pooping is something normal and natural. It’s like pregnancy. Abortion is not natural. Hal and JKeller should watch the video.
Laura,
I didn’t realize that there was debate about “turds” going on anywhere in the world.
There is a debate however about abortion. And one of the ways your side believes that we could reduce the number of abortions, is to educate.
So do we.
If a debate about “turds” comes up, and a video would help to educate me, then I would watch one.
I’m sure you look at animal scat all the time in your line of work because it is necessary.
If it becomes necessary, I’ll look at it too.
Right now a million and a half babies are being killed a year, and a whole lot of people are denying that they are indeed babies. I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask them to watch a video that will help them to “see” that these are indeed babies that are being destroyed.
And please, don’t try to tell me that it’s grossness offends you!
You are the queen of vulgarity and shock…
Not to mention, you claim to have already watched the video…
Also, if my “guilt tactic” isn’t working, then why hasn’t Hal watched the video? It’s because he is guilty as hell, and it would make him feel like a turd!
Laura,
The stats you post are far from heinous.
They represent percentages of percentages.
For example 21% higher risk of low birth weight.
Instead of 1 in 1000 there are 1.21 in 1000
hardly heinous
Or 100 of 1000 abuse reports.
Far less than 1% of the population are ever reported so we are talking far less than one tenth of 1%
Some of the stats are not even about teens. They are general population stats regarding abuse.
What is heinous is the attitude of society that is fine for girls to have sex but not the natural consequence, a baby.
If we say okay to sex, then we say okay to babies and parenthood.
‘Yo, Control Freak-
Nobody wants to watch your video.
Nobody cares.
We’ve seen it all before.
Let it go…
Heather,
I have tried to watch “A Silent Scream” and can’t get beyond two minutes into the film because that commentator bores me out of my mind.
I haven’t watched the other videos because, ultimately, I see no need to. Medical procedures tend to look nasty. I’m the type that can’t even tolerate it when medical shows get graphic.
Simply because a certain procedure looks nasty does not mean that the procedure itself is at fault.
Hippie,
“If we say okay to sex, then we say okay to babies and parenthood.”
And who are you to decide what everyone else consents to? What gave you the right to dictate to other people what they themselves have or have not agreed to?
Laura,
you said you saw a breast cancer study from Harvard this year that included abortion stats.
I looked for it on the internet, but didn’t find it.
Would you mind posting a source.
Thanx
Enigma, yeah, right!
Laura, you let it go!
Enigma, you must have a very short attention span. That video is not long at all. Is your guilt getting to you? Laura, the only thing that you want to do is to have everyone here agree with your view on abortion. It’s not going to happen.
Enigma,
wrote,
And who are you to decide what everyone else consents to? What gave you the right to dictate to other people what they themselves have or have not agreed to?
Posted by: Enigma at October 31, 2007 9:16 AM
I think you missed the point.
I think it is wrong to tell teens that we tolerate their having sex but that we don’t tolerate them having children.
Of course lots of teens and others have sex and don’t get pregnant. Fine. However, some do get pregnant and then all of a sudden society no longer is so supportive once that baby is here. Society derides them and acts like they are losers. I think we should support teen moms as much as we support access to birth control.
Abortion and Breast Cancer: No Link
No Extra Breast Cancer Risk in Women Who Have Abortions
By Daniel J. DeNoon
WebMD Medical NewsReviewed by Louise Chang, MDApril 23, 2007 — There is no link between abortion and breast cancer, a 10-year study shows.
Researchers base the findings on a study in which they followed 105,716 women for 10 years. They found no link between abortion and breast cancers that occur before menopause.
Earlier large-scale studies showed no link between abortion and breast cancers that occur after
menopause.
“The globality of evidence supports no link between induced abortion and breast cancer,” Harvard researcher Karin Michels, ScD, PhD, tells WebMD.
The Michels study shows a longstanding “scientific consensus,” says Michael Thun, MD, vice president for epidemiology and surveillance research at the American Cancer Society in Atlanta. Thun was not involved in the Michels study.
“There is no evidence that having had an abortion increases the risk of breast cancer,” Thun tells WebMD. “This is a subject that has received a lot of visibility; something that has been looked at repeatedly. There is strong scientific consensus this is the case.”
Abortion and Breast Cancer Risk
At one time, researchers did suspect a link between abortion and breast cancer. Researchers who asked women about their abortion history found that women with breast cancer were more likely than healthy women to report having had abortions.
But this kind of study — called a case/control study — is not considered particularly reliable. A person with a medical condition is more likely to report an unusual or embarrassing event than is a healthy person. That’s particularly true when the event is an abortion.
“Abortion is such a personal and sensitive piece of information,” Michel says. “If just you just ask random people, you get much more underreporting then you do when you ask women with breast cancer, who are much more likely to reveal all sorts of information if you ask them.”
Three studies that looked at women’s records about abortion before breast cancer developed found no link to breast cancer. Three studies that asked postmenopausal women about their abortion history and then observed them for long periods of time also found no link to breast cancer.
In 2003, the National Cancer Institute convened an expert panel to analyze these studies. It concluded that abortion did not affect breast cancer risk. Michels was a member of that panel.
“No study should be interpreted on its own,” Michels warns.
Heather,
“Enigma, yeah, right!”
Believe what you wish. Frankly, I could care less.
“Enigma, you must have a very short attention span. That video is not long at all.”
The version that I looked at was ten minutes long. I will not force myself to be bored to tears for ten minutes unless I have to. Someone should seriously tell that man that it wouldn’t kill him not to talk in a monotone.
“Is your guilt getting to you?”
I love how you assume that since I don’t jump when you tell me to that I have something to feel guilty for. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I have my own life and don’t meekly have to do anything that you ask.
Okay then @@.
“I think it is wrong to tell teens that we tolerate their having sex but that we don’t tolerate them having children.”
really? I think society should tolerate teens having sex (if by teens you mean 18 and 19) but we don’t tolerate them having children. I wouldn’t make it illegal to have a child at 18, but we sure should advise against it.
Well, off I go. Have a nice day everyone!
Here is the abstract of the study cited by Laura.
The full text costs $15
There is generally enlightening info in the full text.
Recently I read an article posted by Somg which had similar conclusions in the abstract plus lots of interesting details in the full text.
I like to read the full text because you find out more about how they get the numbers as well as incidental findings such as the following gems from an article posted by Somg from the NEJM:
“With each one-week increase in the gestational age of the fetus, however, there was a 3 percent increase in the risk of breast cancer.
The increased risk among women who had had second-trimester abortions finds biologic support in experiments in rats and is in line with the hypothesis of Russo and Russo.”
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Induced and Spontaneous Abortion and Incidence of Breast Cancer Among Young Women
A Prospective Cohort Study
Karin B. Michels, ScD, PhD; Fei Xue, MD; Graham A. Colditz, MD, DrPH; Walter C. Willett, MD, DrPH
Arch Intern Med. 2007;167:814-820.
Background Induced abortion has been inconsistently associated with breast cancer risk in case-control studies. Retrospective cohort studies using registry information in Scandinavia have not suggested an increase in the incidence of breast cancer, although data on individual reproductive factors were not accounted for.
Methods We examined the association between induced and spontaneous abortion and the incidence of breast cancer in a prospective cohort of young women, the Nurses’ Health Study II. The study included 105 716 women 29 to 46 years old at the start of follow-up in 1993. Information on induced or spontaneous abortions was collected in 1993 and updated biennially. During 973 437 person-years of follow-up between 1993 and 2003, 1458 newly diagnosed cases of invasive breast cancer were ascertained.
Results A total of 16 118 participants (15%) reported a history of induced abortion, and 21 753 (21%) reported a history of spontaneous abortions. The hazard ratio for breast cancer among women who had 1 or more induced abortions was 1.01 (95% confidence interval, 0.88-1.17) after adjustment for established breast cancer risk factors; among women with 1 or more spontaneous abortions, the covariate-adjusted hazard ratio was 0.89 (95% confidence interval, 0.78-1.01). The relation between induced abortion and the incidence of breast cancer did not differ materially by number of abortions (P for trend = .98), age at abortion (P for trend = .68), parity (P for interaction = .54), or timing of abortion with respect to a full-term pregnancy (P for interaction = .10).
Conclusion Among this predominantly premenopausal population, neither induced nor spontaneous abortion was associated with the incidence of breast cancer.
Author Affiliations: Obstetrics and Gynecology Epidemiology Center, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology (Drs Michels and Xue), and Channing Laboratory, Department of Medicine (Drs Michels, Colditz, and Willett), Brigham and Women’s Hospital, Harvard Medical School, and Departments of Epidemiology (Drs Michels, Xue, Colditz, and Willett) and Nutrition (Dr Willett), Harvard School of Public Health, Boston, Mass.
Here is the most salient point of the abstract and the factor that accounts for finding that induced abortion is not related to breast cancer.
“The hazard ratio for breast cancer among women who had 1 or more induced abortions was 1.01 (95% confidence interval, 0.88-1.17) after adjustment for established breast cancer risk factors; among women with 1 or more spontaneous abortions, the covariate-adjusted hazard ratio was 0.89 (95% confidence interval, 0.78-1.01)”
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
The “adjustment” for established breast cancer risk factors is the age of mother at time of first full term pregnancy and the age of the woman at the end of the study.
As far as can be determined from the abstract, the study is basically well designed. The biggest limitation is that the women are predominantly premenopausal and were only followed for ten years which, in terms of breast cancer, is not really that long.
Hal,
I will give you an example. My friend was in college. During that time she had two abortions so she could finish her education. As soon as she graduated she worked as a nanny then married a guy with a high school education. They promptly had two kids struggled for a while and now they are doing great. She never went back to work. How would her life have been so different if she had married during college? I am not saying all women are like she is. Some want careers etc. Some want a career as a mom. What is the difference if they start at 17 or 25 like my friend? Her parents pushed for that college education. She graduated with a 2.1 gpa. No career. Good husband. Good mom. Her choice.
hippie, 17 is too young to get married. (almost always, i’m sure there are exceptions). Sounds like your friend had some good times in college, and maybe was more ready to settle down later than if she married too young.
Hal,
No offense, but many millions of women for thousands of years married very young and had long and successful marriages. Not 100% of course but we don’t have 100% successful marriages anyway. I am not in favor of pushing teens to marry but why should they be so strongly discouraged from it if it is what they want? If they are in a loving relationship why not encourage them to marry. Why can’t we respect, and I mean really respect an honorable decision like getting married when she is pregnant? Instead of saying flatly she is too young without any regard for her right to live her life her way. I think that is judgemental and unfair. Teens are not idiots.
I feel there is far more evidence that teens can be good parents than there is to the contrary. They have done it for thousands of years.
Right now a million and a half babies are being killed a year, and a whole lot of people are denying that they are indeed babies. I think it is perfectly reasonable to ask them to watch a video that will help them to “see” that these are indeed babies that are being destroyed.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Really?
There’s a Halloween thread on this site that features a “baby” suspended over a barbeque.
Since it looks like a baby, it must really be one.
Hi Laura,
Did you read the full text of the study cited in the article you posted?
I could only get the abstract without spending $15.
Laura,
And I have a new grandson, but since he looks like a plastic doll on a bar-b-que pit, he must be made of plastic.
Logic is not your forte.
Laura, Laura, Laura,
Really?
There’s a Halloween thread on this site that features a “baby” suspended over a barbeque.
Since it looks like a baby, it must really be one.
See what I’m sayin’? You need to be educated. You can’t tell the difference between a live human being and a halloween display. For the record, the headless guy ain’t real either. See Daniel Pearls video for a real beheading.
Oh, come ON. The commentator from Silent Scream sounds like the teacher from Ferris Bueller’s Day Off.
Also, I’ve seen footage of a pretty hard-core liposuction procedure that made me a lot more nauseous than the ‘Choice Blues’ or whatever that was.
“The commentator from Silent Scream sounds like the teacher from Ferris Bueller’s Day Off.”
Ben Stein rocks!
“Why can’t we respect, and I mean really respect an honorable decision like getting married when she is pregnant?”
You can respect it, I don’t. 25 is a good age to start thinking about getting married. This isn’t the Middle Ages.
“Also, I’ve seen footage of a pretty hard-core liposuction procedure that made me a lot more nauseous than the ‘Choice Blues’ or whatever that was.”
Yea, sure Erin.
Hi Bobby,
I was looking at some stats and had a question for you.
1,248,547 women were tracked for a total of 25,850,000 person years with 8903 incidences of breast cancer.
I divided the person years by the women to get about 21 years per woman.
Similarly 280,965 were tracked for 2,697,000 person years with an incidence of 1338. Also by dividing person years by women, I got about an average of 9 years of follow up per woman.
Just to get a low ball estimate of the incidence rate, I figured I would need to multiply the second groups rate by 2.3 to compensate for the 12 additional years follow up.
Of course breast cancer rates increase with age and are not constant, this estimate would be below an adjusted for age rate.
Even so, using the steps above, I got an incidence rate for the first group of .00713 and .00999 for the second group. About 30% difference.
What do you think?
Hi Hippie. To be honest, I actually don’t know too much statistics, but I’ll give it a shot.
First, I think the “people years” stat loses a lot of important information. Some women would have been observed for 25 years while another could have been observed for only 1 year. Also, age is very important because a women who is observed for 10 years at age 20 needs to be differentiated from a women who has been observed for 10 years at age 60. You didn’t really have anything to do with all that, though. That’s more of something to note when reading the paper.
But onto my second point, the multiplying by 2.3 is actually redundant. Actually, I can’t quite figure out your .00999 stat, but multiplying both the number of women and the number of women with breast cancer by 2.3, and then dividing those numbers gives you the same thing as dividing without multiplying by 2.3. Since I can’t get your .00999 number, maybe I’m not understanding something. Let me know. God love you.
See what I’m sayin’? You need to be educated. You can’t tell the difference between a live human being and a halloween display.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
…And you don’t know the difference between a baby and an embryo.
You were the one that claimed that if it looks like a baby, it must be one. I was only using your logic process.
Thanx Bobby,
I got the .00999 by dividing the number of cases by the number of people then multiplying by 2.3 to make up for the 12 years of followup.
Why is the 2.3 redundant?
The first group was tracked an average of 21 years the second group an average of 9 years. The 2.3 is to make up for the 12 missing years.
The study tracked no calendar period for an age of subject below 12 years. Subjects were followed beginning at their age of last reproductive event either last delivery or last abortion. Since we know the average age of reproductive life is 30, one group was tracked on average from 30 to 51 and the other from 30 to 39, with individuals tracked anywhere from far less to far more.
Ah okay. The way you did it then, no, the 2.3 is no redundant. So you have
(1338/280965)*2.3
That gives me .01095, so I suppose there may be some rounding error on one of our parts. In any case, though, another way of looking at what you did was to take the number of women with breast cancer, multiply it by 2.3, and then divide by 280965 (since multiplication commutes with division.) So, to be honest, it seems to me that the .00999 statistic has no meaning. I don’t know if there’s a way to compare the data in the manner that you wish to. God love you.
Laura,
And you don’t know the difference between a baby and an embryo.
That’s because there isn’t one.
But you’d know that if you took the time to “educate” yourself…;)
Jill,
Who are the people in the picture?
“That’s because there isn’t one.”
Ba-zing!
Laura,
And I have a new grandson, but since he looks like a plastic doll on a bar-b-que pit, he must be made of plastic.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If we use your logic, yes.
YOUR assertion that if it look like a baby, it must be a baby. It means your grandson must be a plastic doll because he looks like a plastic doll.
I maintain that an embryo and a baby are different things even though they may have a similar appearance.
I’m going to assume that your grandson and a plastic doll are different things even though they are similar in appearance.
Thanks Bobby,
I was just looking for a simple way to get the incidence rate given that none of the variables (years, subjects, ages, or raw incidences) were constant. I thought I could multiply and divide to get a rough estimate.
Kind of like saying 50 people eat 500 hot dogs over 20 years while 70 people eat 200 hot dogs in 13 years. Then multiply and divide to get hot dogs per person per year
“women are all so unique, and competant enough to make their own descions, I am PRO-CHOICE. Emphasis on CHOICE. I have never had an abortion. I have only slept with one man. I doubt I will ever be in that situation where I need an abortion. I love babies and hope me and Mister DrunkenFlicka will have lots of them when we are ready. But I am so damn glad abortion is there for me if my back is against the wall. Even if I dont choose it.
I am also Pro-Choice because Pro-Lifers are liars and notorious manipulators of the truth, and I can never support dishonesty, especially propaganda-dishonestly that is just meant to lure people in like sheep. I am Pro-Choice because Pro-Lifers have grotesquely patronizing views of women and treat them like indecisive children or victims, where Pro-Choicers respect women, their intelligence, their autonomy, and treat them like adults capable of being responsible for their choices and having acurate medical information. Look at the contrast between a site like this or American Life Leauge or Human Life International and RHReality Check or good Pro-choice sites.”
Posted by: DrunkenFlicka at October 30, 2007 8:37 PM
DrunkenFlicka,
Your post is hilarious. I honelsty can’t stop laughing. SHEEP??? I think you are the head ewe in the herd. BAAAAAA BAAAAAAA
You are all about CHOICE? What about the young girls driven to the clinics by their parents or boyfriends and emotionally forced into abortion??
Why is no one available at the clinic to give them other options or support for their choice? Abortionists just want to collect their money.
What about the women on the table who say they changed their minds, but are still forced to go under the procedure?? Where did their choice go?
LIARS??? You want to talk about LIARS???
PP sneaks into Aurora under false pretenses, lies on documents to build their abortuary.
How do you support this dishonesty??
LIES??? Hummmmm……. let me think.
“It is just a blob of tissue.”
“You are still in legal abortion status we can go ahead with the procedure.”
“It will be like getting a tooth pulled.”
“PAS???? No such thing. Get on with your life”
“Yes, our clinic is sanitary and meets all health codes. Ooopppss.. forgot, silly us, no we don’t have any running water or soap in the building.”
“All of our staff are trained and/or licsensed medical professionals.”
Do I need to go on???
Prolifers treat women like children or victims????
No, that’s your sheep herd that does that.
You convince women that they are weak and can’t continue with pregnancy. You treat them like they are victims of circumstances instead of holding them resposible for getting pregnant in the first place.
Maybe you should sober up to the truth. What a joke.
http://surgeries.justsickshit.com/graphic-surgery-video-page-more-sick-surgeries/
Surgeries in progress. The liposuction ones…ugh. So gross.
Thank you, Sandy!!
JKeller: The Browns ruined Tim Couch’s career, I will never root for them again (unless they’re playing the Steelers).
Ha! Right on, JK! My main deal with NFL football is having the Steelers lose. Afraid this will be one of those years for having to just hope somebody knocks them out of the playoffs. Don’t feel too bad, though, what with Indy and New England on the job.
Doug
She’s claiming a nervous breakdown. She lost it in the turn after her hysterectomy. *sound of car breaks, crashing and shattering glass*…. Nope. Who can predict? That’s someone who’s life is a mess.
Heather, I realize that I don’t know everyone, but every woman I do know that has had a hysterectomy is very happy with it.
What is “the turn after her hysterectomy”?
Doug
Doug (AKA He who chooses his words very carefully, yet still can’t outsmart God)
Val sent me this today, and I sooooo thought of you…;)
MK, that’s a great story – I love stuff like that.
If there is an all-knowing god, then yeah, I reckon I can’t outsmart “him.” Heck, probably wouldn’t even give the old boy, if he is an old boy, a run for his money.
O’ course, if there is an all-knowing god then we do not have free will, so who needs to be smart, in that case?
Rochester Doug
I wrote “a priori,” not “a priory.”
Bobby, I thought she was doing it on purpose. Gotta love this stuff.
Dawg
Indeed! Ya don’t see stuff like that much!
I maintain that an embryo and a baby are different things even though they may have a similar appearance.
Actually, it would make more sense if you said that “even though an embryo and a baby do NOT look that similar, they are scientifically same thing, an individual human being”.
Sometimes how we perceive things isn’t always how they are. An embryo does not look like a newborn baby. So although an embryo may not look exactly like a baby, it is a human being. Just as a toddler may not look like an adult but is still a human being.
I think you got it mixed up somehow. ;)
MK,
“And you don’t know the difference between a baby and an embryo.
That’s because there isn’t one.”
This little exchange reminded me of a question that I’ve been meaning to ask you for a while. Correct me if I’m wrong, but according to you a baby is created at conception because at that moment when the sperm and the egg fuse, all of the elements that are needed to create a baby are there. (Like in your cookie dough=cookies example.) Using this logic, why isn’t a child an adult? After all, the child has everything within it that it needs to become an adult (save for time and maturity), so why isn’t the child an adult?
Doug, the woman who had the hysterectomy, HAD to have to have the operation as the result of 1 too many abortions. She kept experiencing continuous vaginal bleeding. The hospital doctors told her that they would have to remove her uterus. The procedure left her feeling deeply depressed. I couldn’t figure that one out. I figured that after 7 abortions, she didn’t WANT anymore kids. She told me “I did want more when the time was right.” *gasp* I guess the choice is no longer hers to make.
Erin, the liposuction video didn’t bother me at all.
Enigma: Correct me if I’m wrong, but according to you a baby is created at conception because at that moment when the sperm and the egg fuse, all of the elements that are needed to create a baby are there. (Like in your cookie dough=cookies example.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You just touched on my favorite hypothetical questions, one that I’ve never had a pro-lifer answer:
You are sitting in a fertility clinic when the big quake hits.
You just have time to get out of the building with;
A) An eight-month-old baby, or
B) A nitrogen tank with 800 frozen embryos
You can only carry one.
Certainly if you believe that an embryo is a human being you grab the nitrogen tank and let the kid die in the rubble?
Certainly saving 800 “babies” is better than saving just one?
Sandy is a notorious liar and manipulator of the truth
Here’s the truth for all to see Sandy
http://www.abortionno.org
To answer Doug’s question:
There is nothing good about Halloween. It has no redeeming value whatsoever.
There is nothing good about Halloween. It has no redeeming value whatsoever.
Posted by: Zeke13:19 at October 31, 2007 7:24 PM
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I’ve always felt that it was the best time to provide sexual favors and sacrifices for my Dark Lord Satan.
Either that or eating all of the fun-size Snickers. (It doesn’t count if you just eat tiny portions – all 300 tiny portions…)
Zeke, Sandy is pro life. ????
You just touched on my favorite hypothetical questions, one that I’ve never had a pro-lifer answer:
You are sitting in a fertility clinic when the big quake hits.
You just have time to get out of the building with;
A) An eight-month-old baby, or
B) A nitrogen tank with 800 frozen embryos
You can only carry one.
Certainly if you believe that an embryo is a human being you grab the nitrogen tank and let the kid die in the rubble?
Certainly saving 800 “babies” is better than saving just one?
Posted by: Laura at October 31, 2007 7:19 PM ************************************************* This will never happen, so why worry about it?
Here’s a great question for the pro choice crowd. How many of you will watch the video that Zeke has posted????? It’s an actual abortion in progress. Hal?
There are 18 women sitting in an abortion clinic right before a big quake hits. The abortionist can only abort one baby. Which woman does he chose? …Dig?
heather- how many of these ‘abortion in progress’ videos do you need to post? I don’t really mind, nor to I enjoy, seeing footage of an abortion. Nor do I like seeing footage of any surgical procedure. It doesn’t affect me any differently. It’s always the same ‘eww, gross’ factor no matter what it is.
Erin, Zeke just so happened to post it again. I wondered if there were any takers.
Heather: This will never happen, so why worry about it?
Posted by: heather at October 31, 2007 7:41 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
hy
Mine won’t either, but why answer these questions? I suppose you would figure it out when the time came. BTW Erin, happy halloween!
Which woman does he chose? …Dig?
Posted by: heather at October 31, 2007 7:49 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Dig?
(I KNEW IT! HEATHER’S A BEATNIK!)
nite nite all..
Laura,
How much does a nitrogen tank weigh? Will it need special provisions if it’s moved? Will there be someone to implant the embryos and ensure that they get a chance to live?
Helium tanks are too heavy to move.
Zeke,
Buddy. I’m pro-life.
Re-read the post. I think I did a pretty good job. I have made these statements before and no pro-abort ever responds to these arguments.
Where is DrunkenFlicka??
Out in a field somewhere no doubt chewing on pasture grass with Laura. BAAAAAAA BAAAAAAAA
BAAAAAAAAA BAAAAAAAAA
“heather- how many of these ‘abortion in progress’ videos do you need to post? I don’t really mind”
Sandy: Out in a field somewhere no doubt chewing on pasture grass with Laura. BAAAAAAA BAAAAAAAA BAAAAAAAAA BAAAAAAAAA
Oh ho – you think that sheep are somehow “disreputable”? Untrustworthy, gullible, light-weights, pantywaists, smooth, soothing, and those which will assuage all your fears, yet also vengeful and apocalyptic?
Well, Sandy, they are all that, and much, much more. They lull us into a false sense of security. They know much, and guess more. They watch. They wait, They grow strong. They war among themselves while we languish. One day they will mount their attack!
Doug
Da Zekester: To answer Doug’s question: There is nothing good about Halloween. It has no redeeming value whatsoever.
Dang, Holmes – did you take a triple dose of “Restraint” pills today?
SoMG: And right now I’m watching THE UNBORN on the SciFi Channel. With Brooke Adams.
Does anyone else remember IT’S ALIVE?
All I can think of is “Alive” – the Piers Paul Read book about plane crash, Andes mountains, survival, cannabalism, etc., but I know it’s not the same thing.
But you bet I will always remember Brooke Adams.
Hoo Aah.
Doug
Laura, The stats you post are far from heinous.
They represent percentages of percentages.
For example 21% higher risk of low birth weight.
Instead of 1 in 1000 there are 1.21 in 1000
hardly heinous
____
Hippie, ain’t that like the increased chance of breast cancer, if any, due to having abortions?
Laura: Dig? (I KNEW IT! HEATHER’S A BEATNIK!)
Her Bohemianess fairly drips off of her.
Okay, maybe that’s an exaggeration.
Doug
Bush is NOT pro-life!!
Just because National Right To Life gave him a 100% pro-life rating does not make him pro-life!
He allows for all sorts of horrible exceptions and even gave some federal funding that would go toward destroying embryos which is NOT AT ALL a pro-life gesture.
Bush put 2 justices on the Supreme Court that have no problem at all upholding Roe v Wade. Alito has a history of giving EXTREMIST PRO-ABORTION DECISIONS. Read the actual decisions and about them here http://shadowgov.com/Focus/focus.html#AlitoReportCard
Bush has made sure that there are 0 pro-life justices on the Supreme Court.
And Bush and other alleged “Christian” “Conservative” people and groups claim that we are just ONE JUSTICE AWAY from being able to overturn Roe v Wade.
NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!
You know, those ABORTION IN PROGRESS videos really shouldn’t bother anyone. Why are pro choicers so afraid of the truth? Heck, I figured most of you would just dismiss it as a fake anyway. I don’t mind watching a liposuction procedure. I actually support cosmetic surgery. So, I had better be able to watch something that I support. Jill even posted the “Frontline” video. Guess what? No pro choicers watched. Only a few of you watched “The Choice Blues.” and I really don’t see where any of you watched “The Silent Scream” either. Laura even said that I was using a “guilt tactic.” Um, why would anyone feel guilt when you guys keep on saying that “IT ISN’T A HUMAN.”…Do you hear yourselves sometimes?
Besides, I can’t make anyone feel guilt. I just wanted your feedback.
Here’s a great question for the pro choice crowd. How many of you will watch the video that Zeke has posted????? It’s an actual abortion in progress. Hal?
Posted by: heather at October 31, 2007 7:43 PM
I won’t be watching it. Ever. I won’t watch graphic videos of medical procedures. How many times have you watched the Zeke video? Do you enjoy seeing that sort of thing? Aren’t you a nurse?
No. I don’t enjoy it, and yes. I am.
Hi Enigma.
“Using this logic, why isn’t a child an adult? After all, the child has everything within it that it needs to become an adult (save for time and maturity), so why isn’t the child an adult?”
Here is the answer: you are confusing the accidents with the substance. This also happens in the old “an acorn is not an oak tree” argument. The difference between a child and an adult is accidental i.e. how they look, their size, etc. But the a child and an adult are of the same substance i.e. they have the same nature which is a human nature. What MK is saying (and what any book on human embryology will tell you) is that at the moment of conception egg and sperm cease to exist and a new “thing” is present. There is an ontological difference between an egg and a fertilized egg. Any other changes that the fertilized egg undergoes are then accidental. You will never find any other ontological change that the fertilized egg goes through, all the way up to adulthood. This is a crucial distinction in philosophy: the accidents and substance of a being. Hope that helps. God love you.
Esther, I was pointing out the fact that it is a really great way to see “choice” in action. It’s only a small piece of tissue, right?
“The Silent Scream” either. Laura even said that I was using a “guilt tactic.”
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No, I said that you were trying to instill guilt and, as usual, failing miserably.
You did NOT just identify yourself as a nurse.
yes. Would you care to look up my license?
Laura, it is working, because they can’t watch it.
You know what? It’s the first of the month. I have to go shopping. My food stamp card is now activated.
Jacque has found a way to look up nursing licenses on line. I’ll even give you my PN number. Welfare mother? Try taxpayer and hard worker. Going back to school in January.
“It’s the first of the month.”
Get up, get up, get up, So cash your checks and come up!
Bones Thugs and Harmony. Yes. They are from Cleveland.
“Bones Thugs and Harmony.”
Oh yeah! Every first of the month, I bust ’em out!
No. I don’t enjoy it, and yes. I am.
Posted by: heather at November 1, 2007 8:33 AM
Hmm. You’re sure pushing it on everybody else as if you enjoy seeing that sort of thing.