Doctors Aren’t Always Right About PVS
By Bethany Kerr
I’ve been thinking a lot about Lauren Richardson’s story, and about the comments thrown around about her by people supporting her starvation and death. Comments such as:
“Lauren CAN’T think. Nothin’ up there anymore. Lauren has left the building. Breathing doesn’t mean life- brain means life. If the right circuits aren’t firing, she’s got no capacity to think.”
“I do think it’s selfish of the father to prolong everyone’s suffering because he can’t handle the fact his daughter has passed on.”
One study, among many others, has shown that at least 40 percent of patients diagnosed as PVS were actually conscious of their surroundings.
What makes this even more disturbing is that researchers are unable to identify any predictors of recovery, which would help doctors to determine who might- and who might not- wake up.
So how can one possibly know for sure whether Lauren Richardson, Terri Schiavo, and countless others deemed “PVS”, are not actually aware and fighting to live?
Why are we so hasty to kill those who may desperately desire to go on? 
There are hundreds upon hundreds of accounts of people who were deemed brain dead, minimally conscious, PVS, or who had been in a coma for dozens of years, but later came out, and lived to tell their stories.
I am posting below some examples of these individuals. Some of these stories you may or may not remember. My point through all of this is: we simply do not know everything there is to know about how the brain functions. If we have to err, we should always err on the side of life, not death!
Boy in So-Called “Persistent Vegetative State” for Two Years Awakens
Jesse Ramirez Wakes From Coma as Terri Schiavo-Type Battle Rages
As Terri Schiavo Begins to Die, Jason Childress Continues to Live
Haleigh Poutre’s Family Wants State Officials Punished for Ignoring Abuse
Doctors Able to Stimulate Brain Damaged Man’s Speech, Movement
Man woken from virtual coma after six years
Swiss Euthanasia Group Under Fire After Painful Assisted Suicide Death
Comatose Mesa man walks out of hospital-Wife had pulled his feeding tube after a week
Woman’s Starvation Stopped in Terri Schaivo-Like Situation
British Researchers See Normal Brain Activity in Another “PVS” Patient
Comatose Woman’s Awakening Brings Call for More Brain Disability Study
Sleeping Pills May Wake Up PVS Patients
Woman Details Her 20-Year Coma
I felt trapped inside my body’
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
“If we have to err, we should always err on the side of life, not death!”
Yes!!!
Good Article, Bethany!!
Thank you, Elizabeth! :)
YOU ROCK BETHANY!
Love it!
There was another story (unsuccessful in finding) about a woman who went into a coma after giving birth. They put the baby on her chest every day for skin-to-skin contact. She was in the coma for 3 months. She shared later that she could hear the activities going on around her. From what I remember, she shared that it was like being trapped under ice and that she desperately wanted to communicate to those around her. That had to be the height of frustration. I just remember her being so grateful that her husband didn’t give up on her!!!
I wish I could find the story. I thought I saw it in World Magazine. Maybe someone else remembers this story?
Beautiful story! If only lawyers and judges would read it….
Very nice, Bethany. I checked out many of the stories. I suppose many of us put ourselves in their shoes and say, “Well, I wouldn’t want to live like that.” How are we to know what someone is really thinking and feeling if they are “trapped?”
Kay –
Do you remember when your read the article? few months ago…couple years ago?
Do you remember her name? or anything that can help me search for you? Even a “sounds like” kinda name works. I’ve found a couple already, but I don’t think they are the ones you were talking about….I’m trying to find the final outcome for the stories I’ve found and will post them ….
here is a story about Chastity Cooper.
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2001/07/26/loc_mom_in_coma_for.html
findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4161/is_20010805/ai_n14534424
I can’t find if Chastity ever ‘woke up’, but she was diagnosed as being in a PVS however when her daughter was born she smiled. when her newborn daughter is placed next to her she will hold her hand and when her 2 sons are in the room she watches them and smiles.
In the first story they had no idea what caused the coma and said that there was a little hope of recovery.
In the second story the man was only in a coma for two weeks before he woke up.
The man in the virtual coma could still move his fingers, his head and his eyes.
People said Terri could move her eyes and look around but in her autopsy they found out she was blind.
Is it just me or is everything on here in italics?
Jess, why does the length of time matter? My mom was in a coma for a month after her car accident…and? Should there be a specified amount of time people are allowed to be in comas before we decide to get rid of them? If you think that..maybe YOU should be the person to decide the specified amount of time.
People said Terri could move her eyes and look around but in her autopsy they found out she was blind.
And?
We already know that Lauren had no desire to go on. She told her mom that it would be “gross” to live like Terri Schiavo. Then she went out and overdosed on heroin, while pregnant.
Elizabeth,
I mean her family kept saying she could see and look around but she couldn’t. As for the time I’m saying people should at least take a year or so and get a second opinion, or for that matter a few opinions. Maybe they shouldn’t rely on one doctor to say the person is in a PVS. I think in Terri’s case though several doctors said PVS with no hope for recovery and she remained so for over a decade. And maybe they should take her off her feeding tube for awhile. It might jar her into a more conscious state. Maybe that’s what happened to the man who woke up two weeks after going into the coma?
Bethany, if you’re out there in cyberspace thank you for the nice vegan website. It sure was neat. Hm, maybe your family is going down veggie lane? : )
Jess, we are trading our meat about 4 times a week for bean dishes, for health reasons (and to save money). It’s actually pretty fun to try out new dishes which don’t have meat..it forces you to be really creative..and it’s easier to digest.
Of course, I still LOVE a good steak. But I have lost 5 pounds in the last couple of weeks, just by cutting out the caffiene and cutting down on eating meat. I now weigh about 126 pounds.
As for the stories you brought up about the people in Coma’s, why did you avoid addressing the people who had been in a coma for 20 years and came out, such as this woman:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/03/earlyshow/series/main713797.shtml
Who, when asked about certain things that happened while she was in a coma, she remembered them. She was aware of her surroundings, even though she was “gone” to others. She was there, she just couldn’t move or express herself.
Kay, Valerie, thank you for the stories! they are wonderful.
I mean her family kept saying she could see and look around but she couldn’t. As for the time I’m saying people should at least take a year or so and get a second opinion, or for that matter a few opinions. Maybe they shouldn’t rely on one doctor to say the person is in a PVS. I think in Terri’s case though several doctors said PVS with no hope for recovery and she remained so for over a decade. And maybe they should take her off her feeding tube for awhile. It might jar her into a more conscious state. Maybe that’s what happened to the man who woke up two weeks after going into the coma?
Many blind people will move their eyes in the direction of a voice they hear…and I have no reason to believe that Terri couldn’t have done the same. I don’t know if you’ve seen the videos of her responding to her father when he was telling her jokes. She laughed at the “punch lines”, and she smiled.
When asked to open her eyes, on one video, you could see her open them for them.
And maybe they should take her off her feeding tube for awhile. It might jar her into a more conscious state.
When there is evidence that a sleeping pill like Ambien could awaken a PVS patient (as I posted above), why not just give the patient the sleeping pill, instead of denying them the basic right to food and water?
That was very rare. Also what did the doctors say about it? Did they say there was a chance she would come out of it? I think they said there wasn’t any chance. I guess at that point it’s up to the family and the person’s living will.
Oh and we weigh the same! And beans are probably one of my favorite foods, in Mexican cuisine you can really replace meat with pinto beans. Hm, I think I’ll do Mexican tonight, now I’m hungry for beans!
That was very rare. Also what did the doctors say about it? Did they say there was a chance she would come out of it? I think they said there wasn’t any chance. I guess at that point it’s up to the family and the person’s living will.
If you’ll take a look at the study I posted, 40 percent of the time, doctors are wrong when they diagnose patients as being PVS. 40 percent is not a small number, or rare, in my opinion.
Oh and we weigh the same! And beans are probably one of my favorite foods, in Mexican cuisine you can really replace meat with pinto beans. Hm, I think I’ll do Mexican tonight, now I’m hungry for beans!
Very cool…that makes me feel better. I wish I weighed 118 again, but I doubt I’ll ever get there! :) haha
If you’re looking for a southwest taste, you might enjoy this pinto bean burger that I posted about on my blog…. take a look and see what you think. It’s yummy!
http://bethany.preciousinfants.com/2007/12/11/southwest-pinto-bean-burgers-with-chipotle.aspx
oh I guess you’d have to find an egg substitute for the egg, and leave out the sour cream, if you’re doing it vegan style though. ;-)
“If you’ll take a look at the study I posted, 40 percent of the time, doctors are wrong when they diagnose patients as being PVS. 40 percent is not a small number, or rare, in my opinion.”
That’s why I feel in these cases it’s so important to get more then one opinion. If my Grandma trusted the first doctor she went to after Lime disease and losing use of her left arm, she would have had to undergo a very painful and dangerous surgery and months of physical therapy. The second doctor told her it would clear up over time, no surgery and a few months later it’s beginning to get better.
And I meant it was rare for her to come out of the coma after 20 years.
“One study, among many others, has shown that at least 40 percent of patients diagnosed as PVS were actually conscious of their surroundings.”
Wouldn’t that only be 40% of people who came out of PVS therefore be less then 40% of people in PVS come out of it?
Bethany,
I wish I could give up caffeine…I’m afraid I would die..it’s the only thing that keeps me up to do homework.
And I just had Mcdonald’s for lunch..ick..I really need to eat better.
“oh I guess you’d have to find an egg substitute for the egg, and leave out the sour cream, if you’re doing it vegan style though. ;-)”
Lol, I’m sure I can find a soy “egg” and soy “sour cream”.
Wouldn’t that only be 40% of people who came out of PVS therefore be less then 40% of people in PVS come out of it?
I may be too tired today, cause I just don’t understand the question…?
I wish I could give up caffeine…I’m afraid I would die..it’s the only thing that keeps me up to do homework.
And I just had Mcdonald’s for lunch..ick..I really need to eat better.
Elizabeth, it wasn’t too hard for me…I never have drunk coffee or cokes for the caffiene. For my husband, however, he had withdrawal symptoms for a week. He had a severe headache and at times, nausea. He’s feeling much better now, and he has lost 15 pounds. In less than 2 weeks, no kidding.
And I know the feeling. I LOVE mcDonalds. just thinking about it makes me want to drive over there and get a Big Mac.
“And I just had Mcdonald’s for lunch..ick..I really need to eat better.”
What a coincidence I’m watching “Super Size Me”. If I can suggest something it’s always helpful to me to have easy snacks on hand, like carrots and apples, they’re just so easy. I have a basket of apples always in my room, courtesy of our dinning commons : )
Lol…it’s terrible.
I have bad withdrawals from caffeine too…but I did find this new vitamin energy drink..it’s by the same people who make vitamin water so maybe I can switch to that..it’s gotta be better than soda.
Bethany,
You said,
“If you’ll take a look at the study I posted, 40 percent of the time, doctors are wrong when they diagnose patients as being PVS. 40 percent is not a small number, or rare, in my opinion.”
The survey said,
“One study, among many others, has shown that at least 40 percent of patients diagnosed as PVS were actually conscious of their surroundings.”
So does that mean 40% of PVS patients come out of it or 40% of people who come out of it were aware of their surroundings?
No, actually I think you did mean 40% of PVS patients come out of it. My mistake. How do they come out of it?
What a coincidence I’m watching “Super Size Me”. If I can suggest something it’s always helpful to me to have easy snacks on hand, like carrots and apples, they’re just so easy. I have a basket of apples always in my room, courtesy of our dinning commons : )
Thank you Jess…I really don’t eat that bad..I eat the most fruits and veggies out of everyone in my house, and I love them for snacks. Sometimes I just crave some Mcdonald’s though lol…and it’s right up the street.
Jess –
Are you a Vegan? (I want to make sure I’m not reading more into this than what is there….)
I tried to be a vegetarian but got real sick. The doctors said it was the way my body digested certain proteins….blaa blaa….
Could you recommend any book on veganism? I’ve read a few, but they contradict each other and I have no idea which ones are right! I’m asking because I don’t know which vegtables are the closest to meat proteins…..etc….and I know that is real important in a good vegan diet.
Can ya help?
(then can ya help me in forcing my very Irish meat and potatoes type husband to follow along?!)
;-)
“brain dead, minimally conscious, PVS,”
Minimally conscious is still conscious and shouldn’t be grouped with brain dead and PVS.
Is brain dead the same as PVS? Does anyone ever come out of being brain dead?
No, no, no, Jess. What I am saying is that the studies show that at least 40 percent of the time, people who are diagnosed as PVS, actually are not. And they actually are capable of thinking, and understanding their surroundings, but simply cannot express it, because they are literally “trapped” inside their bodies.
Plus, there are no predictors, or indicators of recovery, so doctors will never REALLY know which ones will make it out and which ones won’t. And which ones are aware and which ones aren’t.
Minimally conscious is still conscious and shouldn’t be grouped with brain dead and PVS.
If 40 percent of people diagnosed with PVS actually are not PVS, then how can you know that for sure?
Jess –
wikipedia actually has some good info on this….
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistent_vegetative_state
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_dead
Is brain dead the same as PVS? Does anyone ever come out of being brain dead?
Jess, my point was that doctors are wrong about ALL of these situations much of the time. Doctors don’t know everything about the brain, and never will know everything there is to know about how it works. Which is why it is so easy to make a false diagnosis, and which is why we shouldn’t trust a doctors diagnosis of PVS 100 percent.
Even several doctors diagnosis could be flawed.
I believe that the noted effects of Ambien were only noted in patients who had been initially mis-diagnosed with a PVS, and were actually in a MCS, a Minimally Conscious State. There’s a difference.
Watched Super Size Me too! Ugh. I couldn’t eat at McDonalds for a really long time. Why does it taste and smell so good but I regret it about an hour later? I can blame it on the cherubs can’t I? After all they wanted their Happy Meals. :O
Valerie, I actually just started the vegan thing, I’m doing it for Lent. I also hope to raise a bit of awareness about animal cruelty in the meat industry. I’ve been “vegan” for about four days and have yet to make it one day with absolutely no animal products. I had about a fourth a cup of lactose free milk with my cereal yesterday, they were out of soy milk.
I’ve been a vegetarian for 12 years though and I get protein from milk (I drink Smart Milk) and peanut butter, cheese, eggs and whole grain bread. I don’t know if that’s close to meat proteins. As for your husband, I’m an Irish gal myself who loves the potatoes. There are so many Mexican foods you can replace with beans or potatoes. Also vegetarian Mediterranean food always has a lot of flavor.
Is it strange that Super Size me made me REALLY crave some McDonalds?
Would brain dead mean that a person was being kept alive my machines? If that happens to me my husband knows to donate all of my organs, kiss me goodbye and pull the plug.
Terri was not brain dead.
Yes, I may have made a mistake in putting brain death in there, since I really don’t have that much knowledge about it. My understanding of it was that doctors had considered Terri brain dead as well, but if I’m wrong about that, I apologize.
Wow Bethany those numbers are high. I guess I have to say leave it up to the persons living will. There’s a 60% chance they will stay like that forever, I guess they just have to choose what they feel would be best. I still think it should be mandatory to get multiple opinions before declaring someone PVS or brain dead.
Bethany,
I am just typing out loud. :) Brain dead to me means that you are kept alive by machines. Your heart only pumps and you breathe because machines do that for you. Do you remember Karen Ann Quinlan? She was taken off all life support and lived many years after that.
“Is it strange that Super Size me made me REALLY crave some McDonalds? ”
Ugh that movie was disgusting, especially when he found a hair in his yogurt. A woman at my work found a hair in her salad, when I asked if she wanted a new salad she said no she just wanted to let us know there was a hair in it.
I don’t remember Karen Ann Quinlan, but I say, if your body is using machines to to keep it unnaturally alive, then there is nothing morally wrong with a relative pulling the plug. When it comes to basic food and water though, that’s a whole different story! We shouldn’t ever deprive someone of food and water. It’s just heinous.
Wow Bethany those numbers are high. I guess I have to say leave it up to the persons living will. There’s a 60% chance they will stay like that forever, I guess they just have to choose what they feel would be best. I still think it should be mandatory to get multiple opinions before declaring someone PVS or brain dead.
how are they going to choose if they are already trapped in their body? If they haven’t made a living will, why do we have the right to say, okay, we’ll starve you to death, even though there’s a 40 percent chance you could feel the horrible agony of starvation.
“I don’t remember Karen Ann Quinlan, but I say, if your body is using machines to to keep it unnaturally alive, then there is nothing morally wrong with a relative pulling the plug. When it comes to basic food and water though, that’s a whole different story! We shouldn’t ever deprive someone of food and water. It’s just heinous.”
I can agree with you on that.
I agree, Bethany. Starving someone hardly speaks of love and compassion.
I am wondering if Terri had watched the story of Karen Ann Quinlan and stated, “Where there is life, there is hope.” Someone correct me if I am wrong.
Bethany I am a couple of years older than you. Just a couple. hee hee
I can agree with you on that.
Jess, then do you agree that it would be wrong to kill Lauren? She is not hooked up to any machines to live…she is only being given basic nutrition which every person should have the right to. The method of getting it to her is a little different, but really, why does that matter?
I dont see how starving a person to death, when there is a chance they could be feeling every moment of it, is fair or ethical.
Bethany I am a couple of years older than you. Just a couple. hee hee
LOL
Bethany,
I guess I agree that her feeding tube should be kept in as long as her father is willing to care for her and assume responsibility.
Jess, I love you!
I love you too Bethany!
I also don’t think people with Down Syndrome should be forced to abort by their families. I read the saddest story about a young woman who was died during a late term abortion she was brought to by her family. These women should be allowed to give birth.
I don’t think Down Syndrome should be a reason to obtain a late term abortion either.
Hey Jess,
Had a hamstah catastrophe the other night. My daughter, age 7, dropped Sniff’s hamster ball with him in it. The end popped off and he fell out and lay there. Motionless. My husband picked him up and he came around and he is as frisky as ever!!
I always think of you when I think of hamsters. :)
Carla,
Lol, did you hear how Kerry gave his daughters hamster mouth to mouth after it fell into a lake? Also, that’s the defense of hamsters. Lay still on their backs. Not a really good defense, IMO.
Carla,
Are you saying that Sniffs was PVS there for awhile but came out of it? lol
That is what I told my son! Sniffs was stunned! Our cat just happened to be sitting there, staring at him. Sorry, but I draw the line at mouth to mouth as much as I love our furry friend.
MK,
I would need a second opinion on that! ha
Carla,
You mean mouth to mouth from the cat?
“Sorry, but I draw the line at mouth to mouth as much as I love our furry friend.”
It’s ok it can go horribly. A friend of a friend tried to do mouth to mouth and the hamster popped : (
“Look the cats giving Sniffs mouth to mouth!”
*pause*
“OMG no he’s not!”
CATastorphe
ewwww
A popped hamster? No fun.
MK,
Mouth to mouth on neither. Griffen the cat can try to give Sniffs the hamster mouth to mouth. I already have an inkling of how that would go…
Jess, then do you agree that it would be wrong to kill Lauren? She is not hooked up to any machines to live…she is only being given basic nutrition which every person should have the right to. The method of getting it to her is a little different, but really, why does that matter?
I dont see how starving a person to death, when there is a chance they could be feeling every moment of it, is fair or ethical.
Bethany,
I totally agree with you.
P.s. those onion rings I saw on your blog look positively delish. I LOVE onion rings…oh how I wish I had a deep frier to make them myself.
Elizabeth, Thank you! Actually, I just used a regular cooking pot (like what you’d make soup in)…the oil was only about 2 inches deep! :)
Where there’s a will, there’s always a way!
A friend of a friend tried to do mouth to mouth and the hamster popped : (
Ewww!!
Oh ok, I will have to try that Bethany. I love onion rings lol.
Hi Valerie!
Thanks for looking! This story came out roughly about the time just before Terri died. I was wracking my brain about names but I DO remember seeing a picture of her in the hospital bed with the baby on her chest. For a minute I was wondering if I had imagined the whole thing but then I remembered the picture of her. She actually looked like a friend of mine which kind of sealed the memory of that photo. I might have seen it online. Maybe a name will come up. All I can think of is my friend’s name!
I WISH I only weighed 126! Jesus.
I’m working on it though. I can fit into this pair of khakis that I couldn’t fit into at the beginning of the year! Wore them today. Nice morning surprise :)
Why is everythign in italics?
I asked the same thing. Glad it’s not just me.
Jess, PIP, what browsers are you using? I don’t see any italics but now that you both mention it, I wonder what’s going on. I use firefox.
It’s just on this post.
I just tried it in Internet Explorer and it still looks good on my end. I am not sure how to troubleshoot this problem, since I can’t see it. Anyone else see it in italics?
I have checked the HTML coding in my post and it appears to be fine. I might check and see if the first few comments don’t have any html errors.
PIP and Jess,
Put down the bong and repeat after me…there are no italics…there are no italics…
Kay, 6:07,
Does this sound familiar?
Gradually I’ve begun to remember bits of my comatose state: The swimming-through-mud feeling of trying to surface to awareness. The frightening dreams. The intense and very real spiritual warfare, a battle as unto death. The fog of being strapped in a chair with daytime television on to “stimulate” me, vaguely registering that people were in my room, but unable to comprehend that, let alone communicate. It was like watching someone through opaque glass underwater, visible but obscure and unreachable. And the weeks of living in the shadowland between my coma and full awareness, with times of frustration beyond belief.
I remember Tim holding one of my hands, a neurologist the other, and telling me to squeeze their hands. Unable to do so or to speak, I felt my brain screaming, “Why can’t I do this? Maybe I’m dying.” Later, my inability to use the call button left me banging a spoon on the bedside table for an hour and a half. No one came. They thought it was the repetitive motor response of a brain-damaged woman.
It’s on freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1068783/posts
I googled: “woman in coma 3 months newborn lays on chest”
I hope that’s the one. If it is, I got lucky.
I’m on Safari. This is the only thread it has in italics.
PIP,
You brought your computer with you on safari?
How come Jill gets to go to Hawaii and you get to go on Safari and Bethany and I have to do research!?!?
mk:
I’m on Safari too! Haven’t seen any wildlife yet. No italics either.
MK,
Just lucky I guess ;)
Janet, you are on safari, and you don’t see italics?
Wait yeah I’m on Safari too.
“PIP and Jess,
Put down the bong and repeat after me…there are no italics…there are no italics…”
OMG how did that elephant get in my room!!! No seriously it’s in italics.
Is brain dead the same as PVS? Does anyone ever come out of being brain dead?
Jess, my point was that doctors are wrong about ALL of these situations much of the time. Doctors don’t know everything about the brain, and never will know everything there is to know about how it works. Which is why it is so easy to make a false diagnosis, and which is why we shouldn’t trust a doctors diagnosis of PVS 100 percent.
Even several doctors diagnosis could be flawed.
Posted by: Bethany at February 11, 2008 2:56 PM
…………………………..
Bethany, you saw MRIs of Teri Schiavo’s liquified brain. The diagnosis of brain death and continuing decline was very clear. Nothing to miss-diagnose. You have no details of the brain dead heroin addict and will not until her death, yet would like to pretend that you ‘know’ something about her medical condition.
You are quite frankly, exploiting her brain death for your agenda. And doing a poor job of it.
Hey Bethany,
Just what is your agenda, young lady??
My agenda is to get this country to turn progressive. No, we should go Communist! I have no problem waiting in line for four hours for tampons. You shouldn’t either.
No we’re going to turn into an anarchy of cute proportions. http://hamsterforpresident.com/
Trust me you guys will be happier without law and order and electricity.
They won’t give funding for sex education or birth control, but if you have a kid you don’t want you have the right to eat it.
Jess,
Tofutti is the absolute most delicious totally nondairy soy sour cream, soy ice cream and soy cream cheese products.
Kroger carries it and so do kosher grocers.
I had meningitis and for like four days I couldn’t tell sometimes if I was awake or dreaming or how much time was passing. I remember that I did get up to go to the bathroom so I’m not likening it to any of these conditions described here. It is just that the descriptions of how everything is so distorted when your brain is affected just reminded me of that experience. People would talk to me and I sort of ignored them and it was like I couldn’t think of anything to say to respond so I just lay there and didn’t say anything. I hadn’t thought about that in years.
Jess,
Is your hamster prolife?
Carla,
He doesn’t support abortion but like I said, he supports eating your children if you just can’t handle them. You know when you reach number 33 and you don’t have any more nest space, or if someone bugs you when you’re trying to care for them or if they don’t squeak when you clean them.
NEVER bother a hamster with newborn pups.
Bethany, you saw MRIs of Teri Schiavo’s liquified brain. The diagnosis of brain death and continuing decline was very clear. Nothing to miss-diagnose.
It hasn’t been posted yet, but check out the article that Mary Kay will be posting later today. It will be titled, “No Brain, No Pain?”, and it shows evidence that might surprise you, Sally.
Again, we simply do not know everything about how the brain works.
You have no details of the brain dead heroin addict and will not until her death, yet would like to pretend that you ‘know’ something about her medical condition.
Where did I say I “know” something about her condition, Sally? In fact, I think I was quite clear on the fact that we all “do not know” exactly how her brain is functioning or to what level she is conscious of her surroundings. She obviously has some consciousness, as you can see her responding to her father in the videos on Youtube.
You are quite frankly, exploiting her brain death for your agenda. And doing a poor job of it.
I’m not exploiting a brain death, because Lauren isn’t brain dead. Sorry to burst your bubble, Sally.
Hey Bethany,
Just what is your agenda, young lady??
lol
Sally, now that the topic has been posted by MK, I am going to paste it here to help you understand what I am saying:
“The youngsters, ages 1 to 5, are shown smiling, laughing, fussing, crying; they appear alert and aware of what is going on around them. Yet each of these children was born essentially without a cerebral cortex. The condition is called hydranencephaly, in which the brain stem is preserved but the upper hemispheres are largely missing and replaced by fluid.
Merker (who has held positions at universities in Sweden and the United States but is currently unaffiliated) became interested in these children as the living embodiment of a scientific puzzle: where consciousness originates.
The tacit consensus concerning the cerebral cortex as the “organ of consciousness”, Merker wrote, may have been reached prematurely, and may in fact be seriously in error .
Just read this in the paper.
http://www.startribune.com/local/east/15545747.html
Bethany, you saw MRIs of Teri Schiavo’s liquified brain. The diagnosis of brain death and continuing decline was very clear. Nothing to miss-diagnose.
It hasn’t been posted yet, but check out the article that Mary Kay will be posting later today. It will be titled, “No Brain, No Pain?”, and it shows evidence that might surprise you, Sally.
Again, we simply do not know everything about how the brain works.
You have no details of the brain dead heroin addict and will not until her death, yet would like to pretend that you ‘know’ something about her medical condition.
Where did I say I “know” something about her condition, Sally? In fact, I think I was quite clear on the fact that we all “do not know” exactly how her brain is functioning or to what level she is conscious of her surroundings. She obviously has some consciousness, as you can see her responding to her father in the videos on Youtube.
You are quite frankly, exploiting her brain death for your agenda. And doing a poor job of it.
I’m not exploiting a brain death, because Lauren isn’t brain dead. Sorry to burst your bubble, Sally.
Posted by: Bethany at February 12, 2008 8:05 AM
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I’m not the one attempting to draw a simularity between abortion and this person’s medical condition of which we have no pertinent details. The exploitation falls on your shoulders Bethany. As well as the assumptions and imaginings of what you would wish for this case to mean to you.
Sally, now that the topic has been posted by MK, I am going to paste it here to help you understand what I am saying:
“The youngsters, ages 1 to 5, are shown smiling, laughing, fussing, crying; they appear alert and aware of what is going on around them. Yet each of these children was born essentially without a cerebral cortex. The condition is called hydranencephaly, in which the brain stem is preserved but the upper hemispheres are largely missing and replaced by fluid.
Merker (who has held positions at universities in Sweden and the United States but is currently unaffiliated) became interested in these children as the living embodiment of a scientific puzzle: where consciousness originates.
The tacit consensus concerning the cerebral cortex as the “organ of consciousness”, Merker wrote, may have been reached prematurely, and may in fact be seriously in error .
Posted by: Bethany at February 12, 2008 4:26 PM
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You have taken the quote out of it’s context. This is called manipulation and misrepresentation.
Jess, PIP,
I cannot tell a lie… Yes, I see italics too. Sorry for the fib earlier!
Sally, here, read the whole thing, so you can see that in it’s context it says the same thing.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/10/magazine/10Fetal-t.html?_r=2&pagewanted=1&oref=slogin
And yes, I’m exploiting Lauren’s situation for my agenda- My agenda, which is to save Lauren from starvation.
Hi Janet!
I meant to reply much earlier than this but anyway…I am back now!!!
WOW! GOOD JOB in finding it. That was the very one! I was thinking about hitting Free Republic for a search but thought if I couldn’t find it on the internet at large, I probably wasn’t going to find it there either. Thank you so much! Now I have it for keeps in my files. :)
Gratefully,
Kay
Kay,
I’m glad that’s the right one! My pleasure!