Why unclean?
So far I am keeping up with my New Year’s resolution to read the Bible in a year. I’m now in Leviticus and read relevant commentary to our topic this morning. Specifically, I was reading Leviticus 11, about which animals, marine life, fowl, and insects God considered clean and unclean for eating. From the Baker Commentary:
While hygiene was important for a people dedicated to God, the primary reason for dietary regulations in Leviticus was theological.
The only flesh of animals Israelites could eat was of those which fed on various kinds of grasses. They could not eat carnivorous predators. Blood and life are synonymous (Lev. 17:11), and the Israelite had to be very careful of what he ate so he exercised respect for life. Even acceptable animals had to be slaughtered in a specific manner so their blood could be drained out in the proper way….
The only marine life permitted for food were creatures with fins and scales. Any other marine life was forbidden because they were carnivores, eating flesh and blood together.
The list of prohibited fowl in this chapter includes birds which prey on other forms of life….
Of all flying insects, only the grasshopper and various kinds of locust were allowed for food since these creatures were also herbivorous.
Warning: Bearing I Corinthians 2:14 in mind (“But people who aren’t Christians can’t understand these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them because only those who have the Spirit can understand what the Spirit means.”), we will remove any comments considered mocking or blasphemous from this post, and the threshold will be low.
BTW, as I’ve previously explained, I’ve come to believe our bodies are much better off if we follow God’s food guidelines for the Jews. It makes sense.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I swear this question isn’t intended to be mocking.
If, as you point out in the post, according to the Bible, life is equated with the presence of blood, then how can you argue (from Christian perspective) that “life” is present from conception? There’s no blood at that point. Doesn’t it make more sense, Biblically, to argue that life is present when the embryo begins to develop mature blood cells?
I agree we’d all be better off eating like that. In fact, even better yet would be to eat like Adam and Eve. Read what God told them to eat in Genesis — before death and sin entered the word.
Hiero, God is clear He created humans in His image. The theological point here is respect for life.
God puts such a high priority on this He considered even animal, marine, and bird life that preyed on other animals to be ceremonially “unclean.”
Leviticus… I always get stuck in Leviticus.
God puts such a high priority on this He considered even animal, marine, and bird life that preyed on other animals to be ceremonially “unclean.”
Posted by: Jill Stanek at February 21, 2008 8:40 AM
Wait…that doesn’t make sense. So animals who eat other animals are unclean, but people are allowed to eat (certain) animals, and that’s ok? I mean, as long as the blood is properly drained out before consuming?
Also, I don’t think that really answers my question from above. I still don’t get how you can argue from a Biblical perspective that life begins at conception.
Jill – I’m not sure about this interpretation. Pigs were forbidden, but they are not carnivorous, are they? Also, some fish with fins and scales are carnivorous, such as sharks and swordfish. And most shellfish are not carnivorous, correct? You are probably correct about our bodies being better off not eating most of the forbidden animals – shellfish are notorious full of junk, especially in our polluted world!
S.
Heironymous, from a Biblical perspective, I personally believe our life begins before conception, when God conceives of us in His mind.
“Before you were formed in the womb, I knew you and ordained you”…I believe this is the case with each soul on this earth. It’s not all about the physical body, but the soul, from a Biblical perspective.
I believe that God is the one who decides when each individual is conceived and that He has a specific plan for each and every one of them….even those who miscarry. It’s about the eternal perspective, not the earthly/temporal perspective.
This is why I know that my little babies who miscarried are in Heaven and I know that they have already fulfilled their purpose on this earth. Before they were conceived , God knew them and ordained them for a purpose, a purpose that I may never know until I reach Heaven.
Bethany, here here.
Anon, 8:48a: Sharks don’t have scales; don’t know about swordfish. Another component not drawn into this passage or discussion yet is God listed as “unclean” animals who scavenge for food. Shellfish are scavengers, as are catfish (no scales), as are pigs, for instance. In that vein, you’re right about shellfish being “notoriously full of junk.”
Bethany –
But what you are talking about is a kind of spiritual life, which I think is a separate matter from the blood/life synonymity that Jill refers to in her post.
Hiero, 8:46a, said: “Wait…that doesn’t make sense. So animals who eat other animals are unclean, but people are allowed to eat (certain) animals, and that’s ok? I mean, as long as the blood is properly drained out before consuming?”
Yes, that’s right, Hiero.
Hier,
Something happens at the moment of fertilization…something that cannot be explained or duplicated. What was once two seperate things, becomes one. (This is also what we believe happens to married couples on a spiritual level).
A sperm, which is one thing, unites with an egg, which is another thing, and at the exact moment, a third thing, completely unique from the first two, is formed.
It is this moment, this tiny second in time that new “LIFE” is created.
I looked but couldn’t find anything that said that “blood” was involved, but I imagine that in order to breathe and grow and develop, the zygote/blastocyst/embryo/fetus must use the mothers blood until it can use it’s own. Regardless, that life, which was not there prior to fertilization, is there after fertilization and is therefore sacred.
The Doctrine of the Shedding of Innocent Blood:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3722098690652929884
Anon, 8:44a: It has helped me to have Leviticus (and any other cumbersome books/passages) broken down into daily bites by this Read the Bible in a Year Bible (see in link to resolutions, above) that includes a little OT, NT, Psalms, and Proverbs each day.
But what you are talking about is a kind of spiritual life, which I think is a separate matter from the blood/life synonymity that Jill refers to in her post.
Since biologically speaking, a genetically complete, and biologically living human being is present at conception, why err on the side of death because of a passage which you may be taking out of it’s intended context?
For instance, some people say that life isn’t present until the baby can breathe, based on the verse where Adam was given the “breath of life”. However, if we were to apply this logic consistently, then it would also be necessary for each person to reach adulthood before achieving personhood, or “life”.
I don’t really have time this morning to delve into the Leviticus verses, but I will read on it think on them and try to give you a better answer later today or tomorrow (if I can).
And even so, blood is present anyway by the 2 week mark or even before that many times. Before a woman even knows she is pregnant, blood will be present in her baby’s body. So most abortions are performed after a baby already has “life” in that context as well.
“I personally believe our life begins before conception, when God conceives of us in His mind.”
That’s interesting, Bethany. When do you see it beginning? Like, do you believe that there are all the souls that will ever exist on earth waiting up in heaven for a body kind of like the LDS do? Or is it different? Thanks, God love you.
I feel that if one thinks an animal is unclean to eat, and that it would offend God, then they shouldn’t eat it. If one thinks that any animal is ok to eat because it’s received with thanksgiving, then they should eat it.
Here’s some bible verses that helped me conclude the above:
1 Timothy 4:1-5
1: Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2: Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3: Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4: For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
Romans 14:1-2
1: Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
2: For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
Acts 10:11-15
11: And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12: Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13: And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14: But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15: And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.
“The health benefits of a kosher diet have been scientifically proven in the modern era, and give sound proof that God knows best. He is not trying to restrict us by giving us health laws, He is showing His eternal love for us in ways that too few understand. He is showing us how much He loves us by guaranteeing a long and healthy life if we follow His principles.”
(all-creatures.org)
My only concern with the vegan diet, is that so many insecticides and pesticides are used. In a world filled with greed, farmers will do anything to get the most out of their crops. This didn’t happen back in biblical times. Even if one isn’t a vegan, yet still eats “clean” meats, those animals are consuming the chemicals put on their food. It makes me wonder, that if this happened back in biblical days, what would God have to say about it?
Leviticus 25:3-5
3: Six years thou shalt sow thy field, and six years thou shalt prune thy vineyard, and gather in the fruit thereof;
4: But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy vineyard.
5: That which groweth of its own accord of thy harvest thou shalt not reap, neither gather the grapes of thy vine undressed: for it is a year of rest unto the land.
How many farmers today let their land rest each 7th year?
God has removed the unclean designation from these foods, however.
My Navarre commentary has this to say about Lev. 11:
“Uncleanness came from four main sources – animals, dead bodies, leprosy, and misuse of sex. This does not mean that it is easy to see exactly why things were classified as unclean…
Novatian teaches that the forbidden foods were banned not because they particularly deserved to be but as aa way of rendering homage to God…”
“… Sometimes the uncleanness of an animal had to do with how neighboring peoples regarded that animal…the pig, for example, was used for sacrifices to the Babylonian god Tammuz.”
Hey Jill. Maybe I overlooked it, but did you mention whether or not you believe not adhering to such dietary restrictions is immoral or not? I know you’re saying that it’s much better for you, but do you consider it a matter of morality? Thanks, God love you.
Oh the Navarre! I hear that is THE best Catholic study bible. I use the Ignatiious study bible, but they don’t have any OT commentary yet. You recommend Navarre, Milehimama?
That’s interesting, Bethany. When do you see it beginning? Like, do you believe that there are all the souls that will ever exist on earth waiting up in heaven for a body kind of like the LDS do? Or is it different? Thanks, God love you.
No, not quite like that…although, it could be and I don’t know. I don’t think we ‘literally’ are there before conception, but that God knows everything about us and has our whole purpose mapped out before we are even created, before he allows a sperm and egg to unite to be “one flesh”.
And he allows each new life to be created for a specific purpose on this earth. Since he directs when conception will occur (notice how many times the Bible says, “And the Lord remembered her, and she conceived and bare a son”),
That is why I do not use birth control anymore. I feel that I could hinder or go against His plan by doing so…and I (and the world) could miss out on a blessing.
Does that make sense the way I worded it?
I wish I had more time to explain further, but I just got out of the shower and am about to go to the grocery store..
“The only flesh of animals Israelites could eat was of those which fed on various kinds of grasses. They could not eat carnivorous predators. Blood and life are synonymous (Lev. 17:11), and the Israelite had to be very careful of what he ate so he exercised respect for life.”
Hiero,
Here’s a different take on this. This statement is made in the context of “what is proper to eat, and what is not”…NOT “what is alive, and what is not”.
Blood and life being synonymous simply means that if you have blood, you have life. I don’t think it means that to have life you must have blood. One might say this is the case of the two- celled embryo. Think of the example of a tree. It has no blood, but it is alive, because of the root system it has.
I’m not a doctor or biologist, but I think one could also argue that the fertilized egg contains all the DNA needed for the baby’s full development, therefore the blood is present, but not yet in its recognizable form.
I’ve only read the Navarre Pentateuch, although I have Romans and Hebrews. It is EXCELLENT! It brings up points from Papal documents and Church fathers, but in a very accessible way. Also, it reprints the actual Latin Vulgate text so you have English, Commentary, and Latin all on the same page. I LOVE it!
I use the Ignatius RSV for my everyday, but it’s not really a commentary (although it has good cross references).
Have you seen the Vatican site Bibliaclerus? I haven’t had a chance to browse it, but it supposedly links Catechism, Church fathers, and all of the documents in the Vatican library to the text of the Scripture so you can click through.
Yeah, that definitely makes sense, Bethany. I essentially agree, I believe. BTW, it is not like the LDS believe, FYI. TTYL, LOL.
Good to know.
“I use the Ignatius RSV for my everyday, but it’s not really a commentary (although it has good cross references).”
I mean the individual books you can purchase, like http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Luke-Ignatius-Study-Catholic/dp/0898708192/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1203609873&sr=1-1 .
I haven’t seen the site you mention, but I will certinly check it out. baby is crying now, so gotta go. God love you.
Anon, 9:39a, great post. No, we are no longer forbidden to eat certain foods, but I think you and I agree God’s precepts in this regard are for our own good.
By that I am also answering Bobby’s question, “did you mention whether or not you believe not adhering to such dietary restrictions is immoral or not?”
So I would disagree with Milehi’s commentary, 9:45a: “Novatian teaches that the forbidden foods were banned not because they particularly deserved to be but as aa way of rendering homage to God…”
It is clear in every aspect that living a lifestyle God considers holy is also for our own personal well-being.
Anon also said, “My only concern with the vegan diet, is that so many insecticides and pesticides are used. In a world filled with greed, farmers will do anything to get the most out of their crops. This didn’t happen back in biblical times. Even if one isn’t a vegan, yet still eats “clean” meats, those animals are consuming the chemicals put on their food. It makes me wonder, that if this happened back in biblical days, what would God have to say about it?”
The other component to attempting to eat “clean” foods in today’s world is to eat them as they grew back in the day, i.e., organically.
Another aspect to consider with fruits and vegetables is scientists are manipulating them genetically today. Any of the aforementioned with a UPC starting with #8 in the produce section has been genetically altered. Those make me nervous.
(Any of the aforementioned with the UPC starting with #9 are organic.)
Today’s grocery store meat is also full of growth hormones, insecticides, and antibiotics. We should also steer (pardon the pun) clear of them and buy organic meats.
A lot of the genetically altered food and seed is immoral, IMO, because they are specifically engineered to be sterile. Farmers cannot save the seeds every year but must continually purchase them – a great moneymaker!
Jill,
Thank you for your response and the info on UPC codes. I didn’t know that!
I just get so scared eating anything these days. Although I’d like to eat organic, I get tired of being lied to by people who profit off of what I buy.
All in all, organic food is the lesser of the evils. However, I would be careful about Kosher foods. I worked at a company years ago, and the Rabbi would come in once a month to review a few container wash sheets and “bless” the drums of food-grade oil. The same drums of food-grade oil were also sold and labeled as non-kosher. We had to pay the “union” a LOT of money to get the pretty “K” or “circle U” stamp on our certs and labels.
2 Timothy 2:15
Anon, thanks for the info on Kosher food. I haven’t specifically focused on purchasing Kosher, just organics, but that’s good to know.
Yes, I’ve been told immoral grocery stores will call certain produce organic when they’re not. Checking the UPC is a way to confirm.
Jill,
Excellent! I’ll have to start checking the UPC’s going forward.
I really haven’t put much thought into organics until you posted this. I’ve always thought of organic foods as something the health food store nuts ate! Thank you again for posting this. I’m really going to look into finding as much organic foods as I can.
lesforlife,
I agree! The bible (God’s word) must be divided correctly. Law from Grace.
However, I think that Jill’s post was more in the direction of if we didn’t eat the foods that were forbidden when people were under the law, we would be healthier. Not that we are abiding by law, but that the health guidelines that God gave back in those days can benefit us today. The people God forbid to eat those foods couldn’t eat it. We can, now, but maybe it’s to our benefit healthwise to not eat it.
At least that’s how I see it.
I hate to break it to ‘ya, but ALL beef, pork and pork commercially produced in this country eat animal products unless labeled otherwise.
That’s what the big scare about Mad Cow is all about. All feedlots use protein and bone meal – the kind used in pet food and the sort that comes from downer animals – as a way to boost the dressed weight and yield of commercial feedlot stock. (That’s always been the joke about kosher beef. While the animal is dispatched in a cruel, “kosher” method and the hind end isn’t used, that steer was raised as a carnivore.)
Leslie, 10:59a, anon has my position exactly right: “However, I think that Jill’s post was more in the direction of if we didn’t eat the foods that were forbidden when people were under the law, we would be healthier. Not that we are abiding by law, but that the health guidelines that God gave back in those days can benefit us today. The people God forbid to eat those foods couldn’t eat it. We can, now, but maybe it’s to our benefit healthwise to not eat it.”
Laura, yes, organic meat purchased should also have specified on the package it was grown “range-free,” and/or “corn fed.”
FF, do you not have farmer’s markets where you live? Here in NYC we’ve got quite a few really good ones – New York has some great farming – so even if you don’t have a decent-quality grocery store near you, you can probably find organic, ethically-grown (or raised) food at a place like that. I was always very blah about dairy until I started getting it at a green market – now I’m a huge fan!
I really think access to healthy food is important. I know that living in NYC, I have a way easier time finding non-hormone-fed beef etc than my boyfriend’s parents in Kentucky do, and I think that’s a real shame.
I don’t know. It seems kind of lame to adopt eating habits based on people over 2,000 years ago. There’s no reason to believe you would be any “healthier” one way or the other. Why bother? I’m sure back then their diet was not something to rejoice about. The Bible doesn’t exist to tell you how to eat.
Today’s grocery store meat is also full of growth hormones, insecticides, and antibiotics. We should also steer (pardon the pun) clear of them and buy organic meats.
Posted by: Jill Stanek at February 21, 2008 10:10 AM
Whoa…..I find myself agreeing with Jill about something. I think I need to go lie down. I’ve been buying only organic dairy and meat products since I was pregnant with child #1, and feel much healthier.
Anyway, the J.O.B. kept me busy today, but wanted to say thanks to the folks who tried to answer my question.
PIP, why do you think the Bible exists? I’d be interested to hear your viewpoint.
I think that the seven deadly sins list is a better place than Leviticus to start with healthy eating – you know, avoiding gluttony, sloth…
Rugelach and challah could do any diet in! LOL
“Before you were formed in the womb, I knew you and ordained you”
So does God single out specific people for miscarriage? Like, “ok I’m going to create you and give you life and in six weeks I’ll kill you.”? And does that mean God also has control over who has sex with each other? Would he somehow prevent two people from having sex, or if he had a life he wanted to create and the woman wasn’t having sex herself then would he make a man rape her?
Milehimama-
Obviously it is a spiritual document, not a recipe book.
PIP, but what do you mean by spiritual document? And how is it obvious?
What spirit? What is the purpose of the document?
And, BTW, there are recipes…”If you bring a grain offering baked in an oven, it is to consist of fine flour: cakes made without yeast and mixed with oil” Leviticus 2:4
Anonynous: Leviticus… I always get stuck in Leviticus.
There’s some pretty cool stuff in Deuteronomy too.
That’s what the big scare about Mad Cow is all about. All feedlots use protein and bone meal – the kind used in pet food and the sort that comes from downer animals – as a way to boost the dressed weight and yield of commercial feedlot stock. (That’s always been the joke about kosher beef. While the animal is dispatched in a cruel, “kosher” method and the hind end isn’t used, that steer was raised as a carnivore.)
Laura – agreed, and it always struck me as odd that there were “Kosher hotdogs.” I mean, come on – a dang hotdog?
Mad Cow is one thing but I’m not going to worry until Mad Sheep starts happening.
Don’t know if Mad Lemming is a possibility but that could be catastrophic as well.
Doug
Deut. 25:11-12 cracks me up every time.
I always thought the reason that they didn’t eat pigs back then was because they were considered “Dirty” because people who ate pork often got various parasitic diseases like trichomoniasis (sp?).
Jewish Film Titles:
Oy of the Beholder – Singles kvetch about their awful partners.
Girls Interrupted – Women’s section of shul are told to be quiet during davening.
Seder House Rules – Zeda explains the law on Pesach.
Angela’s Kashas – Woman tells all her secret recipes.
Supernova – Rocket scientists discover powerful strain of lox.
Dredel Will Rock – Toy comes alive during Chanukah.
Sleepy Halah – It’s Friday and dad fills up on bread then dozes off.
Goys Don’t Cry – Rabbi explains why only Jews celebrate Tisha B’Av.
Goy Story 2 – Issy divorces shiksa, then marries another.
Mun on the Moon – Astronauts find hamentashen filling on the moon
Stuart Ladle – Mouse makes chicken soup for shabbos.
The End of the Affair – Sheva Brachos finishes at 3am.
Jill
I am firmly convinced that if the Biblical Jews had developed their culture in another part of the world, their Kosher laws would have been a great deal different. Having developed in the Middle East, their restrictions are not unlike the other religions of the region. Obviously just common sense if your ancestors are derived from the Middle East.
You exist because your ancestors avoided disease and ate what was healthy for their specific environment. Eating whale blubber would probably kill you. Not eating it, might have killed off the Inuits.
Jews may need to continue to eat the way their religious laws demand to remain spiritually Jewish, but I believe it is the surest way to die off when Jews are no longer limited to existing healthfully in only the Middle East.
Honestly Jill, if you are really interested in eating what is best for you, look at what your family before you ate. You wouldn’t be here if not for them. And I’m not talking about your American parents. Was it Reagan that believed that catsup was a vegetable?
Milehimama-
Isn’t the point of the old testament covenant, and the point of the new testament, the kingdom? The Bible is sorta all about God.
Adopting their dietary habits seems unimportant to me.
Law & Grace…you’ve got it, PIP!!!
I don’t know if this has diverted to an abortion discussion–haven’t read the posts. But, according to Jesus there is no need to follow the OT food regulations:
“There is nothing outside a person that by going in can defile, but the things that come out [often interpreted as stealing, adultery, etc] are what defile.” Mark 7:15
So does God single out specific people for miscarriage? Like, “ok I’m going to create you and give you life and in six weeks I’ll kill you.”? And does that mean God also has control over who has sex with each other? Would he somehow prevent two people from having sex, or if he had a life he wanted to create and the woman wasn’t having sex herself then would he make a man rape her?
No, Jess. God does not make men rape women. Evil men rape women because of their choice to follow their sin nature. They have free will to choose whether to do evil or good. God will not force them to follow Him. God, however, can intervene and bless a woman who has been raped, with conception. This is a gift of God for the woman, to help her. Children are ALWAYS a blessing, and the conception of the woman is not a curse, but a way of God turning a bad situation into a good one.
Remember Joseph, and how his brothers sold him into slavery?
One could ask, “Why would a loving God allow all of these brothers to sell their own brother into slavery like this? Why would He do that?”
However, God didn’t do that. Satan, working in Joseph’s brothers, through the sins of jealousy, rage, anger….THEY did that.
God will not interfere in the will of mankind to go against Him, however, he will intervene for those who are His people, to turn their “bad” into a “good”, which is exactly what He did for Joseph.
Joseph ended up being second to the Pharaoh of Egypt. He ended being able to save thousands and thousands of people in that land from a 7 year famine.
Our God works in mysterious ways, Jess.
But God NEVER does evil. God never is even tempted to do evil.
As for God creating life, and then taking it away. The Bible is clear that there is an appointed day of death for EVERYONE. Not just unborn babies, but EVERYONE.
Because of our sin nature, we must die, before we can live forever. Just as a seed must “die” before it can be planted and grow as a new living plant, we must die before we can live in our spiritual bodies.
I hope this helps clear that up for you, Jess.
I don’t know if this has diverted to an abortion discussion–haven’t read the posts. But, according to Jesus there is no need to follow the OT food regulations:
“There is nothing outside a person that by going in can defile, but the things that come out [often interpreted as stealing, adultery, etc] are what defile.” Mark 7:15
Leah, you are right- we do not have to adhere to the dietary restrictions of the old testament. I think what Jill is trying to say is NOT to say that we have to follow them, but that we will most likely be much healthier by doing so.
Jill feels (and I agree with her) that God made those laws for the protection and health of people, and that by following them today we could all be a lot healthier. But not that we necessarily HAVE to do them.
I agree with Jill, but I am weak when it comes to shrimp and pork!
No, Jess. God does not make men rape women. Evil men rape women because of their choice to follow their sin nature.
Forgive me for jumping in, but I think that Jess’ question dealt more with you saying that God knows and ordains people before they exist in the womb — and, as such, that people ‘exist’ in a sense before they physically exist. If a child, who will eventually be a product of rape, exists pre-conception as a soul or even just in God’s eyes or whatever, doesn’t that basically mean that God “needs” that man to rape that woman in order for the child he knows and has ordained to come to life? If the man had a spiritual intervention just before raping the woman, what would happen to the child who was supposed to be conceived?
Forgive me for jumping in, but I think that Jess’ question dealt more with you saying that God knows and ordains people before they exist in the womb — and, as such, that people ‘exist’ in a sense before they physically exist. If a child, who will eventually be a product of rape, exists pre-conception as a soul or even just in God’s eyes or whatever, doesn’t that basically mean that God “needs” that man to rape that woman in order for the child he knows and has ordained to come to life? If the man had a spiritual intervention just before raping the woman, what would happen to the child who was supposed to be conceived?
The fact that He knows beforehand that it will happen does not mean that he wanted it to happen, or even willed it to happen. Yet, He came up with a plan to turn it around for the good.
God knew beforehand that Adam would eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Yet, it wasn’t God who made him eat from the tree.
Also, regarding the hypothetical you posed, God definitely does not “need” the man to rape the woman. He could still allow the good to happen without the evil…however, He will not interfere. However, He will intervene to turn the bad into good for those who are His children.
God didn’t “need” Joseph to be sold into slavery. He could have shaped better circumstances for Joseph to have made it to the Pharoah without having to deal with that kind of thing. However, since God does not normally interfere with man’s ability to choose right or wrong, he allowed the jealous brothers to do what they wanted to do, and then used that situation in a positive way for Joseph.
Bethany,
You explain things so well!
Thank you!
:)
Thank you, JLM!
As for God creating life, and then taking it away. The Bible is clear that there is an appointed day of death for EVERYONE. Not just unborn babies, but EVERYONE.
Bethany, that sure sounds like no free will to me.
Doug,
It’s free will when you’re alive here on earth. Once you’re dead, of course there’s no more free will, silly!
As for God creating life, and then taking it away. The Bible is clear that there is an appointed day of death for EVERYONE. Not just unborn babies, but EVERYONE.
Bethany, that sure sounds like no free will to me.
What would our appointed day of death have to do with free will, Doug?
We never had the choice to choose how long we will live. That would make us gods. We are not gods.
We only have the choice whether we will choose to do right or wrong, to follow God’s will, or to not follow His will, in the days allotted to us on earth. This was our God given choice.
Thanks, Jill, for pointing out the life-blood aspect of the O.T. dietary laws. The general ban on eating bottom-feeders(scavengers)has also, I think, to do with the fact that their digestive systems are constructed differently from those of animals designated clean; the bottom feeders’ don’t remove toxins from their food, so their flesh is contaminated more by nature. Modern consumerism has contaminated the flesh of otherwise clean animals with antibiotics and growth hormones, but that is not God’s fault. “God made man upright, but they have made many inventions…” inventions which distort, pervert, and reverse God’s natural intended order.
I don’t see where the texts quoted from the N.T., I Timothy 4:1-5,Romans 14:1-2, or Acts 10:11-15, prove that it’s OK to eat anything, anymore than it’s biblically OK to knowingly consume poison.
I Timothy 4:5 qualifies meats fit to eat as “sanctified by the word of God”; the O.T. is the word of God, and “sanctifies”, e.g., sets apart, some meat as fit to eat and others as not. Prayer sanctifies the body of the eater to God; and He may well protect it thus from unknown toxins in food; but if the food is not set apart as clean by the word of God in the first place, this might be tempting God if clean food was available.
Romans 14:1-2 would seem to discuss only a vegetarian diet vs. one that includes presumably clean animal flesh, eggs, etc., and Peter himself interpreted his vision in Acts 10 stating that God had, in it, shown him not to call any MAN unclean…but he did not intend to eat any man, that I know of. As far as I know, biblically, animal flesh was not included in the diet until after the flood, when the lack of vegetation and the increased physical demands on humanity required the additional protein to survive; but even then, there were limits for the optimal protection of man, animals, and the environment the bottom-feeders help keep clean.
And, I don’t see where the time or place of the giving of these laws needs to be taken very seriously as a reason to disregard them. The construction of bottom feeders’ digestive systems and its implications are universal, and respect for the sanctity of life has never proved to be the destruction of any society that adhered to it, whereas legalized murder (the deliberate destruction of innocent human life and, I think, the needless, wanton destruction of animal life) has always led to/gone hand in hand with cruel, tyrannical (read, anti-legitimate choice)governments, genocide, mass graves, holocausts…you know, that sort of thing. I also remember reading somewhere – I think it was in one of Jordan Rubin’s books – that the life span/quality of health of Jews was noticably compromised as more “progressive” attitudes led to a disregard for the O.T. dietary laws – but the Jews thus weakened lived in other countries than Israel, and many centuries later, than those to AND THROUGH whom those laws were initially given. I’m sure the Nazis did not feed the Jews they put into concentration camps according to those laws; they hated any precept, moral, dietary, or other, that suggested that they might have to answer to a greater authority than themselves for their ideology and the atrocities that were the logical outworkings of it.
As for God creating life, and then taking it away. The Bible is clear that there is an appointed day of death for EVERYONE. Not just unborn babies, but EVERYONE.
“Bethany, that sure sounds like no free will to me.”
What would our appointed day of death have to do with free will, Doug?
If it’s appointed, then we don’t have free will and cannot change it.
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We never had the choice to choose how long we will live. That would make us gods. We are not gods.
Nobody said we have thatchoice, as far as I know. It’s not about choosing to live forever, for example, it’s being able to choose to die or not, which would mean no appointed day.
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We only have the choice whether we will choose to do right or wrong, to follow God’s will, or to not follow His will, in the days allotted to us on earth. This was our God given choice.
The salient point is that either our days are alloted, or not; either we don’t have free will, or we do.