Newborn hospice vs. euthanasia
A comment on RH Reality Check today from a mother who aborted her handicapped baby:
I… received the news that the fetus [I] was carrying was going to die – there was not one thing that could be done, he had no kidneys and a host of other problems. I was just a little more than halfway through my pregnancy when I received the news and after weeks of agonizing, chose to end my pregnancy through early elective induction. I held my son when he was born alive and kept him with my husband and I until he died peacefully in my arms.
There’s that choice. And there’s the choice to let God decide. MSNBC reported March 24 – in a well-done article, I might add – on the perinatal hospice movement, growing as doctors are able to diagnose more fetal handicaps earlier.
There are now 55 such programs nationwide, tracked here. One person involved in the movement estimated only 10-20% of mothers receiving a poor prenatal diagnosis carry their babies to term. That jumps to 40% if given hospice support.
Here’s the bottom line, quoting MSNBC…
“It’s the worst news that anyone could get – that your child is going to die,” says [genetic counselor Cheri] Schoonveld. “These horrible feelings aren’t going to go away with a termination. But the flip side is that they’re not going to go away after a baby is born either…. ”
Having talked to mothers who aborted their handicapped babies, I’ve heard plenty of regrets. But I’ve never heard of a mother regretting her decision to protect and love her fatally ill baby until s/he naturally died. Here is 1 family’s story, from MSNBC:
[HT: readers Andy and Hannah]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Thank you so much, Jill. Have had two very close friends who allowed their unborn children to live until they died naturally. One had anencephaly and one had Potter’s Syndrome. Neither regret delivering their daughters and loving those girls up until God called them home.
Wow! The video left me speechless. My admiration for the parents is unlimited.
The video left me in tears. God has granted that family such grace to deal with that issue. They made the right choice, eventhough only for a little while did they get to experience the joy and blessing of that child with Trisomy 18.
I knew a pastor from my church who’s wife was pregnant with a baby with ancephaly. Now this baby was destined to die within minutes of birth, still they decided to keep the pregnancy and deliver the baby to term. It was a hard moment when they baby was born, as he only lived 4 hours.
I clicked it to post too soon.
Anyways the baby only lived for 4 hours, but they do not regret making their decision. Their baby was born about 2 months before mine was and the situation made me sad. I really feel for people in that situation, severe fetal abnormality that guarantees death within a short period of time. At the same time, I realize that the giver and taker of life is only God. And we must let him take reign of that realm regardless of the circumstances.
Thanks Jill
“I held my son when he was born alive and kept him with my husband and I until he died peacefully in my arms.”
It was good that they were able to hold their baby. If they had decided to wait their baby might have already died inside of her.
“It was a hard moment when they baby was born, as he only lived 4 hours.”
But they will spend an eternity with him in heaven.
“If my cup won’t hold but a pint, and yours holds a quart, wouldn’t you be mean not to let me have my little half measure full?”
— Sojourner Truth
Oh for heck’s sake Jill. This quote is a prime example why you will never be considered a legitimate journalist:
“A comment on RH Reality Check today from a mother who aborted her handicapped baby.”
You’re trying to make it sound as if this woman elected to abort a child who was just impaired or disabled. Her fetus was fatally deformed, NOT “handicapped”. The word “handicap” implies a condition that is manageable in some way, which was not the case with her situation, and yet you chose to use that word anyway.
You were supposedly a nurse, so I have to assume that you know the difference between a handicap and a fatal condition, and made your choice of words regardless, just to imply that there was something horrible about this poor woman’s decision. Sometimes you seriously need to look to the mote in your own eye Jill.
That’s a really sad situation and I emphasize with the family, but … Jill, your position on this whole situation bewilders me!
Let me get this straight…
If you induce the birth too early and that leads to an earlier death of the baby, that’s NOT abortion? Is that because you let it live for a few hours in the real world before it died?
And I’m not trying to be mean here, but I really, truly don’t understand why THIS is different from abortion, ESPECIALLY considering the argument pro-lifers make that “you wouldn’t kill a child after it was born, so why before?” Because essentially, they are killing the child. According to pro-life views, the child should have just been born and given a chance to live as long as possible using the best medical treatment available, but instead they induce delivery and let the child die early.
Furthermore, you make it sound like it’s okay to kill disabled or deformed children, but not “normal” ones.
What do you really believe here?
I think some are confusing the quote with the video.
The first mommy induced labor early(abortion)…her baby died in her arms.
The second mommy delivered her boy and he died naturally 29 days later.
But Carla I was wondering if the child would have just died in the womb? I mean, if you had a chance of letting the fetus die in the womb, or inducing labor and being able to hold him for a few hours what would you do?
I am no expert Jess but babies are in amniotic fluid and not breathing oxygen when they are cozy and safe in their mommies. The babies I knew were going to die AFTER they were delivered. They were carried to term. Both families were offered “termination” and were completely against it.
To induce labor early you are not allowing a baby to die naturally. You are choosing to abort a child that could have lived up until their due date, been delivered and held and let God decide.
What would I do? I would not seek to have labor induced and deliver a baby prematurely to die. I would not play God. I would carry that baby as long as I could and deliver naturally and hold her.
If a child dies naturally before delivery I would deliver and hold her.
I would not cause my baby’s premature death just so I could hold her.
I hope that makes sense.
But Carla doesn’t a fetuses kidneys begin working before birth? I mean, don’t they have to process nutrients from the umbilical cord? Then the wastes go back out through it?
Posted by: Edyt at March 26, 2008 7:03 PM
What the heck are you talking about? Jill quoted what RH said, not her opinion. Jill is saying that the mother should have let nature take it’s course as described in the video.
RH’s quote was about someone else and Jill was trying to point out that people SHOULDN’T induce early. You completely missed the point.
“I would not cause my baby’s premature death just so I could hold her.”
But wouldn’t you want her father and grandparents to be able to hold her and talk to her before she dies?
And I’m not trying to be mean here, but I really, truly don’t understand why THIS is different from abortion, ESPECIALLY considering the argument pro-lifers make that “you wouldn’t kill a child after it was born, so why before?” Because essentially, they are killing the child.
You are correct, that is abortion, and Jill is against that. You might be confusing the quote about the woman who induced labor early for fetal anomoly (abortion, which Jill does not support) with the video where the couple chose to carry the baby to term and he lived for 29days (not abortion, and a choice that Jill supports).
HI Jess,
A baby without kidneys can survive in the womb until delivery because it is dependent on the momma’s kidneys to dispose of waste through the placenta.
Potter’s Syndrome.
With the syndromes we have been talking about(Potters and anencephaly)babies can live until they are delivered naturally. When they are breathing oxygen on their own they do not live long. Lack of development of kidneys causes lack of development of the lungs as well.
I am not understanding your questions, sweets. You seem to think that forcefully removing a baby from their mommies is better so then everyone can hold her. Even though, everyone can hold a baby when she is delivered naturally and takes her last breath.
But wouldn’t you want her father and grandparents to be able to hold her and talk to her before she dies?
Posted by: Jess at March 26, 2008 7:28 PM
Jess, I think of course every parent in that situation would ideally like to be able to hold their child before he/she dies, but the point Carla is making is that it’s not OUR choice to decide when our child dies. ONLY God is the giver and taker of life. Not parents.
I had a little boy in 2006 who was delivered very prematurely (my body went into labor by itself and we were unable to stop it, my labor was NOT induced) ….. anyways, he did just MOMENTS before he was delivered. It pains me that I never got to hold him and talk to him while he was alive, but given the choice between letting it happen naturally the way it did (meaning I let God decide), and intentionally inducing labor early in order to possibly have the opportunity to hold him alive (meaning my drs and I decided) …… I would take the first choice everytime.
And that is because I have peace in my heart knowing that I did not CAUSE my son’s death, that his death was a result of something completely out of my control and my dr’s control …. it was absolutely without a doubt an ACT OF GOD. So I don’t have to feel guilt forever that my son died.
However, if I had allowed the dr’s to induce my labor, even knowing that he would die anyway …. I would never have that peace of mind knowing that it was out of my hands … the death of my child at that moment would have been MY DECISION and there is no way I could live with myself knowing that.
Does that make sense the way I said that?
By the way, I should add, my son did not have any type of medical condition, he was perfectly healthy, and so the only cause for his death was extreme prematurity.
With anencephaly their is only a brain stem present and usually the skull does not close in the back of the head. While in the amniotic fluid, the baby still kicks and sucks her thumb and blinks. When she is delivered a little cap is placed on her head and she passes away due to lack of a fully formed brain.
Both anencephaly and Potters Syndrome are fatal. Meaning a child does not live long after birth.
Are you saying Jess, Kill her, so I can hold her cause she is going to die anyway??
Kristi,
I am so sorry.
You make perfect sense to me. :)
Thank you Carla :)
The parents in this video are amazing, I think they are so brave.
It’s just that I always thought one of the reasons you guys wanted to wait for natural delivery is because everyone can see and hold the baby and the baby can enjoy being with their family for a few hours. I thought the fetus would die in the womb with that syndrome, thanks for clarifying. But there is a difference between the two cases, I don’t think the first baby could have survived 29 days with his problem, no matter how long he spent in the womb.
I don’t believe that God somehow decides to take someone up to heaven. It was the illness that killed these babies, not God. Say, if a person is hit by a car, God didn’t kill them the car did. Unless God controls people’s actions, which I don’t believe he does.
Kristi, I’m sorry for your loss. Do you think God took your son up to see him, or do you think it was just your body rejecting the pregnancy? I mean, your son is with God now, but before…
Agreed it was an illness that killed these babies, but I believe that God allows some people to become ill and others not. I also believe that God heals some people who already have illness.
And if someone dies from being hit by a car, it was God who controlled that and allowed the accident to result in the person’s death rather than just injury.
I believe that God knows the number of our days, He determines the date of our birth and the date of our death.
I’m not sure if you’ve shared already, so forgive me if I’m asking a repetative question, but Jess do you have any particular religious beliefs?
“Are you saying Jess, Kill her, so I can hold her cause she is going to die anyway??”
They didn’t kill him. Who knows maybe he would have survived longer? I mean, maybe there could have been a transplant?
Unless God controls people’s actions, which I don’t believe he does.
He doesn’t…that’s called free will which was given to us by God.
It was the illness that killed these babies, not God.
True, but God was there trying to ease the pain of everyone involved. At least I believe so. I believe that God shapes us in a way through experiences in our lives. In those situations, we can either turn towards God or turn away from God, either way, He is still there for us.
With anencephaly their is only a brain stem present and usually the skull does not close in the back of the head. While in the amniotic fluid, the baby still kicks and sucks her thumb and blinks. When she is delivered a little cap is placed on her head and she passes away due to lack of a fully formed brain.
My brother died of this. This was before they even knew what it was, and my mom was scared and young, and didn’t hold him. My dad went with him to be there for him when he died.
“Agreed it was an illness that killed these babies, but I believe that God allows some people to become ill and others not. I also believe that God heals some people who already have illness.”
It honestly makes me sick to believe God would kill someone’s father when they are still a little girl, or their mother when they are a young man just entering adulthood. Illness and disease aren’t from God. They aren’t holy, good things. They are evil. I mean, there is no illness in heaven.
I am a Catholic. Well, my mothers side of the family has always been strongly Catholic and our Church is like our extended family. I was baptized, received first Communion and conformation, and attended Catholic school for a number of years. I feel myself drifting further away from it though. As if that wasn’t apparent in my posts, lol. No I do believe in God and Jesus though.
It honestly makes me sick to believe God would kill someone’s father when they are still a little girl, or their mother when they are a young man just entering adulthood. Illness and disease aren’t from God. They aren’t holy, good things. They are evil. I mean, there is no illness in heaven.
Okay, but what if the father dying helped this little girl grow into a stronger person for it? Like I said, God does things to shape us into the people we are going to be. My dad’s dad died when he was 10…he dropped him off at school one day..and when my dad came home from school he was dead. Was it fair? No. Was it evil? No. It was just life, and in life, there is also death. My dad grew into a strong, wonderful dad despite not really having a dad. And my grandma grew bitter in her old age as a result of having her husband die at a young age. We can’t choose what events happen to us really, all we can choose is how we deal with them.
“And my grandma grew bitter in her old age as a result of having her husband die at a young age.”
So does God let people die to test other’s faith?
Jess,
God knows the length of our days. He knows the number of every hair on our heads. He knows when we will be born and when we will die. We all live and we all die. All of us. Some live 2 weeks and some live 102 years and it is all in His plan. I fully trust Him that when the span of my years is done, when His purposes for my life are fulfilled, He will call me home. Maybe in 2 days or 2 years.
Elizabeth,
I didn’t know that about your brother or your dad. I am sorry, sweets. Hows your girlybug?
Posted by: Jess at March 26, 2008 7:48 PM
Fair question, Jess, thanks for asking. I believe that God controlled every event which lead up to Isaac’s death, including the problems with my body. I believe that God has a very distinct purpose for Isaac’s short life. I can tell you story after story about how the birth and death of my son has impacted people in my family, and people around me, not to mention my husband and I of course.
One example: my 31-year-old uncle. After attending my son’s funeral on Sep 6, he decided he wanted to begin attending church. He went that next Sunday and continued going. In mid September (I think it was the second or third week he attended), he made a public profession of faith. He was baptised in mid October.
On December 5 he died tragically in a car accident on his way to work.
Without the death of my son, we do not know if my uncle would have received salvation before his own very unexpected death. We now have peace knowing he is in heaven.
Also after Isaac’s funeral, both my parents began attending church, though they do not go regularly and still have some work to do :) but it’s a start.
I work as a counselor at a Pregnancy Center … when my son died I took 2 weeks off. My first week back I met a young girl who came in for a preg test …. turns out she was about 18weeks along already and planning an abortion. Here I was, having just delivered a baby at that gestation a few weeks before. So I shared my story with her, and told her what a baby at that stage is like. I described Isaac to her, I told her about his little fingernails and toenails and eyelashes and eyebrows, etc,etc, etc.
One week later that girl returned and told me she decided to let her baby live.
There have been countless other women since then in crisis pregnancies who I have shared my story with. I am one of the “rare” people outside of the medical field who has SEEN and HELD a 5-month gestation “fetus” …. so i can look someone in the eye and tell them FROM EXPERIENCE exactly what a baby at that stage is like.
It has only been 1 1/2 yrs since my son’s death, so I don’t believe that we fully know yet all the ways that God intends to use his short little life to effect others.
I will never fully “understand” why God let him die, but I do not TRY to understand it. I trust that God’s divine plan is so much bigger than us that it’s sometimes pointless in those situations to try and make sense of it. When I have moments where I question “why, God?” I cling to the scripture in Isaiah 55 which says “My thoughts are not your thoughts, and my ways are not your ways, says the Lord…. but just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my thoughts and my ways higher than yours”
(paraphrasing, that’s from memory so it might not be exact)
Bottom line … God is saying …. YOU DO NOT HAVE THE CAPACITY TO UNDERSTAND EVERYTHING I DO, SO STOP TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT AND JUST TRUST ME!
You’re all crazy.
You’re all crazy.
Posted by: SoMG at March 26, 2008 8:17 PM
Thanks, SoMG, coming from you I’ll take that as a compliment :)
So does God let people die to test other’s faith?
Posted by: Jess at March 26, 2008 8:04 PM
That’s the million-dollar question I suppose, Jess. I don’t have the answer. I believe that God allows painful events to enter our lives to help mold us and shape us into who He wants us to be. But beyond that, honestly, I don’t try and figure it out, I just trust that God knows what He’s doing.
Part of “faith” implies believing in something even if you don’t have all the answers.
I’m off to bed everyone, Goodnight.
Kristi,
Thank you for sharing Isaac’s story. You are a wonderful mother.
Kristi and Kristen, thank you for the clarification. Jill’s apparent lack of blatent hatred in this post led me to believe she actually supported it.
Now I don’t feel so confused. =)
SoMG
Your so typical of people in the abortion industry – so empathetic and caring! We wouldn’t expect anything other than the comment you posted.
Kristi I am sorry for your loss.
SoMG
Your so typical of people in the abortion industry – so empathetic and caring! We wouldn’t expect anything other than the comment you posted.
Posted by: Patricia at March 26, 2008 9:44 PM
You mean like how Jill is so empathetic and caring about the woman whose post she quoted? The one who made a difficult and painful decision that Jill didn’t agree with, so Jill decided to portray that decision in an incredibly prejudicial and false light? That must be how “typical pro-lifers” are empathetic and caring.
So does God let people die to test other’s faith?
I don’t think it’s a test necessarily, because God loves us even when we turn away from Him. I’ll explain it like this: I know with everything in my body that if I didn’t get pregnant at the exact time that I did that something horrible would have happened to me. I don’t know what it is, and to be honest, I don’t like to think about what it could have been, but I was at a point to where the internal/external self-destruction I was exhibiting would have caused something very bad to happen to me.
Now, on my own, I probably would not have turned any of that around. But I really think God stepped in and gave me my baby to save me. Save me from myself. He gave me that gift and I could CHOOSE to do with it what I wanted, God couldn’t make me take the gift. And it HAS taught me more than I could have ever imagined and am so thankful for it. I know that things like illness and death are terribly hard to deal with, but it’s like the woman in the video said: “You can either go through it and accept it, go through it miserable, or not go through it at all, but what will you give up not going through it?” Does that answer your question?
Carla,
Thank you! And she is doing well, today she had one of her selective hearing days..as in, she selected not to hear anything I said. Oh well. Watching the video on this thread makes me want to go squeeze and kiss her, but she is sleeping. :)
(SoMG at March 26, 2008 8:17 PM)
You’re all crazy.
***
Well Sir, there are degrees (as with Yllas). Those hospices sound good to me. Tough situation to lose a wanted pregnancy.
Patricia:
SoMG does not represent everyone who is PC. I am PC and do not agree with 90% of the shit he says. He’s a nutter and so is Zeke…
Midnite-
I’ve missed you!!!! How are you doing?
And by nutter, do you mean, a nutter butter? lol…geez I’m hungry.:)
No one has commented on the quote from the mother in the video. She said he was “…perfect beauty and perfect innocence”.
AMEN !!!
With or without his condition, his short life had a purpose. Perhaps this “purpose” was to have pro-aborts see this situation and have a change of heart and realize that NOT EVERYONE believes that all “defective” babies be aborted.
Look around you and see how many “physically perfect” people there are out there who are self absorbed and think the “defective” don’t deserve a chance at life, brief as it may be…and then ask yourself WHAT these “perfect people” have to offer any of us, or what have THEY done that makes THEM so much more WORTHY to live.
“And by nutter, do you mean, a nutter butter? lol…geez I’m hungry.:)”
Hm Elizabeth, maybe you, me and Carla can all get together one day for a lovely peanut butter sandwich picnic : )
I guess what really bugs me is people who say we should believe in God because “God did good things” for them. Like oh, I became a Christian and then I won the lottery. How about all of us who haven’t won the lottery?
Speaking of miserable, I forgot my new running shoes at home and had to run in the old ones. My shins are killing me to the point of tears. I’m going to cave in and beg my parents to ship them up (see parenting doesn’t end at 18 it goes on forever…).
Midnite can come to. You’re all invited.
“My shins are killing me to the point of tears.”
Jess, you’re running to many miles per day (did you say 13miles?), too much in my opinion…..
Jess,
I actually thought that my life would be so much easier when I surrendered to Jesus at the age of 28. Smooth sailing, right?! We all have sorrow, grief, regret and pain in our lives to deal with. Now I know WHO to turn to in everything.
When you win the lottery you can throw the biggest peanut butter picnic EVER!! :) Take care of those shin splints, girl!
Jess, you’re running to many miles per day (did you say 13miles?), too much in my opinion…..
Jasper – Yee Haa – that’s a lot, for sure. 90 mile weeks…whew.
Jess, impressive, even if it’s less miles than that.
Seriously, I’m all about a peanut butter samich picnic after Jess wins the lottery. Hmmm, maybe after *I* win the lottery, I’ll buy a big house with a computer in every room and you can all move in..and we can talk to each other through the computer still. :) Oh and peanut butter samiches everyday!
You dont have any right to judge a woman who is having to deal with this kind of a situation.
You dont have any right to judge a woman who is having to deal with this kind of a situation.
WHERE in that article did you read a judgemental word? Or do you not read the articles and just assume there is something judgemental in them? Cause I didn’t really read anything where any sort of judgement was passed.
“Jess, you’re running to many miles per day (did you say 13miles?), too much in my opinion…..”
I do between, 4 and 15. I’ve been kinda slacking lately, also cause I don’t have my new shoes. I did 15 miles in my new ones and i felt fine but 8 miles in my old ones were the ones that killed me. Today I’m just going to go to the gym and ride the bike for awhile.
It’s ALL about the shoes.
You dont have any right to judge a woman who is having to deal with this kind of a situation.
WHERE in that article did you read a judgemental word? Or do you not read the articles and just assume there is something judgemental in them? Cause I didn’t really read anything where any sort of judgement was passed.
Posted by: Elizabeth at March 27, 2008 2:22 PM
*******************************
Obviously youre not capable of reading any of the posts written in response to the story. Your desperation to find *anything* to whine and complain about is laughable.
You are vile. Vile. I happen to know the woman you quoted above, and you could never hope to be as brave as she is. Her child had limb-body wall complex. “Limb-body wall complex (LBWC) is a rare,
complicated, polymalformative fetal malformation
syndrome …This complex malformation, has no sex or familial predilection and is invariably fatal.” (source:http://medind.nic.in/maa/t04/i1/maat04i1p77.pdf)
She found out when she was 20 weeks pregnant, and she made the decision to wait until 27 weeks (viability) to induce labor. If there was a chance for her baby, she wanted him to have it, even though she had a child at home and was risking her own health by continuing the pregnancy. She then spent 7 heart-breaking weeks carrying a child she knew was going to die, feeling him move, having strangers ask her when she was due and telling her how lucky she was.
Her son had no amniotic fluid. When he was born, he was covered in bruises because he had been banging against the sides of her uterus. He died in her arms, peaceful, loved, and finally out of pain.
To categorize such a heart-breaking tale as a woman having “aborted her handicapped child” is a lie. It does a disservice to one of the most amazing women I know, and to her son. May others have more compassion on you than you have shown here.