Mile high abortion, miscarriage, or murder UPDATE
UPDATE, 4/2, 3:50p: I’m moving old updates to page 2. Read the story in chronological order from the airplane graphic, below. Here’s the latest, from Click2Houston.com, today:
No charges will be filed in the case of a fetus found in a trash bin on an airplane….
Investigators said the 14-year-old mother was returning from New York with a chaperoned school group.
Police presented the case to the Harris County District Attorney’s Office, which declined to charge the girl or the apparent 14-year-old expectant father.
These 2 should be in 8th grade. Will MSM check to see whether these kids’ school taught comprehensive sex ed or abstinence ed?
Click on graphic above to link to video news story.
Yesterday afternoon a mother on board a Continental flight somewhere between NY and Houston delivered a preterm baby, or “apparent fetus,” as the Associated Press called him/her…
A mother would not normally miscarry on the qt. Did she take RU-486 and have abort too quickly? Was she trying to hide her pregnancy? Was she a young victim of rape/incest, perhaps unaware she was even pregnant? Was she an illegal alien or on the lamb, thus averse to attention? Why didn’t she flush the baby? Was s/he too big? Did she kill the baby?
Interesting that the FBI and Houston medical examiner are involved. Such incredible discrepancies in our laws. Had this mom aborted in a mill….
UPDATE: Since I started writing this post, there has been a new development, as reported by ABC:
[D]etectives have located a girl who they believe might have delivered that fetus while on board that Continental aircraft. They’re trying to determine if that fetus was born dead or alive….
An autopsy on the fetus is scheduled for today…. That will help determine if the child was ever alive or if it was stillborn….
Law enforcement tells us that if this was a miscarriage that occurred on board the plane, there may have been no crime committed….
Again, police are now interviewing a girl who they believe may have been involved with this case. It’s unclear at this point how old she is, where she is from, and what exactly led to any placement of the fetus in the airplane’s trash.
[HT: son Tim and reader Charles]
UPDATE, 4/1, 3:45p: From the Associated Press:
A 14-year-old girl on a return flight from a school trip delivered a stillborn fetus in the bathroom of an airplane and disposed of it in a waste bin, police said Monday.
The girl, whom police did not identify, said she didn’t know she had been pregnant. Preliminary autopsy results indicated the fetus was stillborn and not viable, police said.
“We’re dealing with a scared child at this point,” investigator Keith Lovelace said.
Now the question is, who impregnated the scared child?
[HT: moderator MK]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
jill is getting desperate about something to get hysterical over –
So sad they know it’s a baby but are too stubborn to say it. I’m confused though, why does it matter if the baby was born alive or not, is it a person??
My heart goes out to the baby and the girl. If she had a miscarriage, maybe she could have asked for help?? Of if she meant to kill her baby, my heart still goes out to her. What a desperate girl. SAD.
RU486 doesnt work that late in gestation, does it?
A born baby is still a “fetus”.
This political correctness crap has gone to far!
The PC crowd should be outraged over this. They are the ones who insist on the correct medical terminology be used.
Definition of fetus:
2. In humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo
Definition of baby:
1.
a. A very young child; an infant.
b. An unborn child; a fetus.
c. The youngest member of a family or group.
d. A very young animal.
Imagine this! It is the word baby that can be used for both descriptions, not fetus.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/5661688.html
March 31, 2008, 10:43AM
Police talking to juvenile suspected in plane-fetus case
TR –
RU486 is for pregnancy termination at 7 weeks gestation or before. However, some have illegally (or without prescription) taken the med well after that, causing major complications to the baby if it is born alive and to the mother.
I am a carbon-based life-form.
TR, the articles don’t say how far along the baby was. RU-486 is supposedly ok through the 49th day, 7 weeks. But people take it later. It’s easily available by the black market. Planned Parenthood has been known to dispense it later.
TR, the articles don’t say how far along the baby was. RU-486 is supposedly ok through the 49th day, 7 weeks. But people take it later. It’s easily available by the black market. Planned Parenthood has been known to dispense it later.
Posted by: Jill Stanek at March 31, 2008 1:07 PM
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This would have to be much later in gestation than that or there wouldnt be any question at all about potential viability.
I am hoping that maybe she didn’t know she was pregnant…but in this day and age, that seems so impossible to me. It is very tragic. I hope we can find out the details of this…I feel bad for everyone involved.
I am hoping that maybe she didn’t know she was pregnant…but in this day and age, that seems so impossible to me. It is very tragic. I hope we can find out the details of this…I feel bad for everyone involved.
Posted by: Elizabeth at March 31, 2008 1:48 PM
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The article said it was a juvenile – that could be anything from 12 to 17
And where was this juvenile’s parents?
How detached do you have to be from your children to not know or even suspect that she is pregnant?
Elizabeth,
You’d be surprised at how “detached” some parents can be.
Sometimes, all it needs is just a working, single parent … or two working parents who may not have the time to spend with their children…
That doesn’t mean they’re bad parents.
Do try not to assume all families are the same.
Elizabeth
they don’t need to be “detached” not to notice. first of all, some girls themselves don’t even know that they’re pregnant until they go in to labor, and second of all, a lot of girls that do know they’re pregnant are able to hide it very well.
if you consider how common it is for parents to see their kids without much clothing on, especially this time of year, its not too hard to imagine even a very caring parent who’s daughter wears loose jeans and hoodies may not notice a pregnancy.
If you can’t take the time to notice that your child is having severe issues, like being pregnant, you’re a bad parent, because you aren’t PARENTING at all.
Okay maybe you’re not a BAD parent, but an Absentee parent at the very least.
Don’t condescend to me and assume I think all families are the same. I don’t. I know MANY single-parent families and 2-parent families that both do a very good job taking care of their kids. Why? Cause they take the time to be there and talk with their kids, so even when they can’t be there physically because of work, they know their kids can talk to them. I never said they had to be there 24/7 to be a good parent, but for heaven’s sakes, you don’t know your 12-year old is pregnant?
first of all, some girls themselves don’t even know that they’re pregnant until they go in to labor, and second of all, a lot of girls that do know they’re pregnant are able to hide it very well.
Amanda, the first scenario I can believe for very young girls yes.
The second is possible if you’re parents aren’t paying attention enough to notice.
As a parent of a 2-year old, I make it my job to get into my daughter’s brain so I know what she is thinking, so I know when she’s suddenly going to run and dump her whole cup of juice on the floor. I know how she acts before she does it, her mannerisms, everything. That’s because I pay attention. No matter how well a teenage girl may hide a pregnancy, there are little signs, because someone can not be going through something that huge and not act a little strange. It’s just up to the parents to be paying attention. And if they’re not, well, then we have babies in airplane bathrooms.
If the girl was obese, she could have hidden the pregnancy without too much trouble. I’ve known very overweight women who actually lost weight during pregnancy because they were eating better. And it’s rare, but once in a while a woman does go to term without realizing she was pregnant herself. Again, this is more common if the woman is obese.
But it is disturbing that this is a case where it’s not obviously a miscarriage — evidently the baby was large enough to be noticed in the trash — but despite it’s being born, they’re still referring to him or her as a “fetus”.
When you get to the poin where you can’t legally determine if a death was the death of a human being without a medical examiner, things have gotten screwy. Imagine if instead of age or location being the deciding factor it was race, and you had to wait for DNA tests to tell you if the body was sufficiently “human”.
Christina,
That is a good point.
We have fallen down a slippery and sad slope here I think.
(And just for the record, Amanda and Edyt, I do not completely blame the parents in any way. I just think that these situations with young girls could be avoided more if parents were more involved)
I was about 110 when I got pregnant with older son, and about 120 with younger son. I have a fairly small bone structure. I was still a good five months along with both of them before I began to ‘show’. If I was lying flat on my back I could tell but that was only because I knew. Its possible the girl wasnt visibly pregnant and either had not told her parents or didnt realize it herself. Its also possible she miscarried, paniced, and didnt know what to do and didnt know what to tell anyone. Given some of the news stories Ive read, really abominable judgment on the part of ‘juveniles’ isnt surprising.
“Sometimes, all it needs is just a working, single parent … or two working parents who may not have the time to spend with their children…”
ACK…I can’t believe I’m going to say this…..I’m going into shock…..did I just see pigs flying past my window????
I agree with Edyt on this.
Another thing to think about: The parents could be the best and most observant parents in the world but because of outside factors the teen becomes extremely rebelious and pushes everyone, especially her parents, away from her. I know I did that and I put my poor parents through hell. There is no way they would have known anything about me unless I told them.
I am not trying to say that the parents are to blame because I am sure that there are parents who care and are observant and maybe wouldn’t be able to tell…
But like I’ve said, parental involvement is key to preventing things like this from happening. Open lines of communication for parents and kids would help I think.
Yeah…I would think it would be pretty easy for a young teen to just not know she was pregnant. I mean, if she’s, say, 15, she might only have had her period since age 14. When I was that young, I was really irregular and my symptoms changed each time. If she wasn’t gaining much weight or looking any different, she probably just wrote it off.
Jill, 1:07, said,
“TR, the articles don’t say how far along the baby was. RU-486 is supposedly ok through the 49th day, 7 weeks. But people take it later. It’s easily available by the black market. Planned Parenthood has been known to dispense it later.”
We don’t know all the facts yet, but don’t you wonder how Planned Parenthood will react to this story? I can’t wait to see the spin on this one. The legalization of these “morning after pills” (whether used in this case or not) has sure opened up a new can of worms for the courts to deal with.
Planned Parenthood tells girls and women to “stock up” on the morning after pills, “just in case”. Who is legally responsible when a 15 year old girl takes the medication incorrectly. What is she legally required to do if she aborts her baby in a public place like an airplane? The problems for women who take the pills are endless the way the law stands.
From the post:
“Was she an illegal alien or on the lamb, thus averse to attention?”
ROFL!!! I think that if she was on a lamb, people would have definitely noticed.
I think the word you’re looking for is “lam”….
“Yesterday afternoon a mother on board a Continental flight somewhere between NY and Houston delivered a preterm baby, or “apparent fetus,” as the Associated Press called him/her…”
yes, thats the AP, filled with pro-abort feminists. No surprise the lousy scum.
“Such incredible discrepancies in our laws. Had this mom aborted in a mill….”
I know, the problem is we have too many pro-abort judges thta can twiest any way they want.
I was about 110 when I got pregnant with older son, and about 120 with younger son.
TR….What is your secret? I haven’t heard of such things since biblical times!!!
(just kidding….honestly, though…I did have to read that twice to get its meaning! That first sentence really threw me off!!!)
Anyway, it will be interesting to see how this story develops. I don’t want to speculate until I get more facts…but my heart goes out to the girl who lost her baby, and the cleaning crew that found the baby. Could you imagine? How traumatic for all involved!
A born baby is still a “fetus”.
The PC crowd should be outraged over this. They are the ones who insist on the correct medical terminology be used.
Valerie – that does seem odd, since fetus is for unborn, still in the womb, etc. I don’t “insist” that correct terminology be used – there’s no reasonable expectation for that, in the first place – but yeah – weird for the Associated Press to say it.
Story Update
Seems the girl was 14, in 8th grade, neither she nor her mother knew she was pregnant, and police say it was a stillborn. Preliminary autopsy revealed it was a miscarriage, though police are looking into whether or not the baby took a breath, which would change this from a bizarre occurrence into some sort of crime.
“If she just went to the bathroom and when she had this it would seem to me more like a spontaneous miscarriage,
Thank you for the update, Edyt.
Although, I must admit, this story seems a little bit, well, odd to me.
A miscarriage doesn’t really come without pain right? So if this girl was in pain, why wouldn’t she tell her mother? I know if I was 14 and having cramping and all that, it would freak me out, and force me to ask my mom about it. (Especially if I didn’t know I was pregnant..the pain would probably freak me out more) But that is just me. Was her mom on the flight with her? Cause if she was in the bathroom for a while, wouldn’t her mom check on her?
I don’t know..some parts of this story still leave me wondering.
Elizabeth,
She was 14! What mother would possibly think their 14-year old was pregnant if she complained of bad cramps. When I had bad cramps (menstrual), my mom didn’t care much. I just kept hearing her horror stories about her “cycle” over and over again…like THAT was supposed to comfort me. Anyway, kids that age are always complaining about being sick to get out of things. If the 14-year old had no idea she was pregnant, and the mother didn’t either, wouldn’t a miscarriage be the LAST thing that each would think about?
@JLM: Hahaha, your mom did that too? So did mine. Of course it turns out mine were worse than mine…I don’t think my mother ever had cycles that lasted a friggin’ month… and then not have one for nearly a year (though that was awesome).
And just to note, when you’re really, really irregular (like I am) you may not get a period every month, or even every few months. There was a point in time where I went a whole year without getting a period and it wasn’t because I was preggers, and had I been preggers I probably wouldn’t have known it until I started feeling fetal movement.
A lot of 14 year old girls are highly irregular, chances are good she had no idea she was pregnant and was just used to skipping several months of periods like she normally did.
Elizabeth… shes an 8TH GRADER!! If I was that age and told my mom my stomach was hurting, she’d probably tell me I had cramps or food poisoning and tell me to go to the bathroom in case I got sick.
A lot of the 13 to 15 year olds I saw at the school for pregnant teens had NO idea they were pregnant until they were 5 or 6 months along. Many of them were very close with their moms, who also had no idea.
I think you might be slightly underestimating how common it is for people to just have no clue.
JLM,
Oh I know about all that, I just imagine the pain of a miscarriage of a later-term baby might be more than that of menstrual cramps. Especially if the “fetus” looked like a baby at that point…which obviously it did for the crew to notice that it was in the trash.
I’m not trying to say she did anything to the baby, I’m just asking questions for the sake of being curious.
Rae,
Well, my mom’s WERE much worse than mine, though. She’d get “it” for 21 days straigh, not kidding, then one week without it. The one week with out it, she’d be pms’ing REALLY BAD!!! It was terrible! Thank God she FINALLY had a hysterectomy!!! So, all in all, I guess she had a very good reason to minimize mine!!!
Rae, but the good news, is that your body does change as the years go by, and so do the “cycles”. I heard, and I don’t know if it’s true or not, that the “cycle” changes every 7 years. Yours may get better over time!
I think you might be slightly underestimating how common it is for people to just have no clue.
This is true…I knew I was pregnant when I was like 3 weeks pregnant. But my periods had been regular since the age of 12, then, at 19 I had my “period” and it went away a day later..and THAT never happened to me. EVER. So I knew something was up.
I, for one, hope that she didn’t know and that no crime was committed. Even if it was all accidental, I am sure it will have an effect on her emotionally/psychologically, and I hope she has the support to deal with whatever feelings come about as a result of this event.
@JLM: I just take BC and makes things *much* better. My mom has finally gotten somewhat regular now…and she’s 46! It took her 30 years to get regular. Both of my grandmothers have had hysterectomies (though one was for uterine cancer…) and my aunt had a complete hysterectomy due to really severe ovarian cysts. My mom was looking into a hysterectomy a few years back but apparently her doctor was like, “Uh, just wear Depends or something.”
Needless to say, my mother quit going to him. :-p
’twill be my destiny to also get a hysterectomy someday, though I’d rather get one now because I hate my cycles so very, very much. Unfortunately there is no real medical reason for me to get one so insurance will not cover it. :(
@Rae,
I would LOVE to have a hysterectomy, too. But, like you, no medical reason for it. So, instead, I’ll keep doping myself up on pain killers to kill the pain, while destroying my liver in the process. Life isn’t fair!
@JLM: Who needs livers anyway? Useless organs! The only time livers are useful is after a night of heavy drinking. I kid, I kid.
And I’ll keep “doping” myself on “female steroids” (birth control) till I get breast cancer or a heart attack. Whoot for medicine!
woo-hoo!!!!
@JLM: I just want to apologize to previously being rude to you in some of our previous discussions (I think it was about homosexuality?). It was poor behavior on my part. In case you don’t remember this, it was likely that it happened when I was posting as “Ari-chan”.
Rae,
No need to apologize, but I thank you and accept it. I also want to apologize to you if I offended you in any way, or if I was rude to you. I know my comments can be pretty blunt at times. My mind races faster than I can type, so I really don’t get the “fluff” out too much.
I always did, and still do think that you are one amazing woman!!! Thank you for being you!
Rae, “A lot of 14 year old girls are highly irregular, chances are good she had no idea she was pregnant and was just used to skipping several months of periods like she normally did.” This chatter is so casual, much like casual, or friend sex. If the 14 year old was not giving herself up for the eventual cash source for planned parenthood she wouldn’t have to wonder why she’s late, am I pregnant, or I might have an imapcted bowel!
@Anonymous: I have no idea what you’re talking about.
Anon,
Neither do I!
Anon….
umm….huh?
To Rae, “I have no idea what you’re talking about.” Ditto. So much casual chatter about this girl’s period. I wonder if she gave herself up in the very school where she’s “protected” from her GASP! parents, so she can be used by “friends” and with the help of the school nurse get secretly driven to planned parenthood to get cleaned out and readied for the next one. If only boys were taught that sex with girls could cost them $600.00 they might start thinking with their other head. Maybe the next generation anyway. Was that so hard?
@Anonymous: I was merely stating a fact that irregular menstruation is common for girls that age and that it was very possible that she had no idea that she was pregnant.
That’s it.
I still have no idea what you’re getting at. You’re just raving about PP and I’m not sure how that’s connected to the story at hand especially since it appears as though the girl had a miscarriage…
anonymous: You got some spalinin to do. WHAT was THAT all about???
@Mike: *whew* glad I’m not the only one who has no idea what anonymous is saying. :)
Anon – is there something wrong with discussing the menstrual cycle? Is there a way other than “casually” it should be discussed?
And what the HECK does this have to do with her planning on going to Planned Parenthood? Don’t you think you’re a bit out in left field with the assumptions here? As it stands right now, this is a story about a young girl who had no idea she was even pregnant – yet you’re assuming she was going to have an abortion… so i repeat… HUH??
Did you just need an excuse to rant?
Rae, Yep, I hear what you’re talking about. There’s a larger story here than menstruation and miscarriage. It’s that we are talking about a young teen being used for sex, and being ok with the same disposal methods as pro baby killers. And since you missed it, I’ll repeat; If only boys were taught that sex with girls could cost them $600.00 they might start thinking with their other head. Maybe the next generation anyway. Was that so hard?
Rae, “As it stands right now, this is a story about a young girl who had no idea she was even pregnant – yet you’re assuming she was going to have an abortion…” Could she possibly have known she had sex, or was raped? Was it so wrong to mention the truth about “most” girls in this situation, rather than this bloody chatter about periods and frequency? This is what happens when a subject as serious as girls being used for sex gets watered down to bodily functions.
@Anonymous: How does what you’re saying pertain to the situation at hand? I’m not okay with her “disposal methods” and I think it’s very sad that it happened that way.
What makes you think boys shell out the bucks for abortions? I’d be willing to wager a bet that it’s usually the girls who are forking over the $$$ to abort their children because their loser boyfriends “haul azz” out of the picture as soon as she gets knocked up.
I’m going to have to agree with Amanda, I think you’re just looking for an excuse to rant.
@Anonymous: Of *course* she had sex! But you don’t always get pregnant after having sex, but you can’t get pregnant without having sex in the first place. I’m saying that it’s likely she had no idea she was pregnant because of irregular periods, and that’s why something like this could have happened! The fact that she likely had irregular periods is why she had no idea she was pregnant and had the unfortunate opportunity of miscarrying on an airplane!
Are you purposely being dense or are you just looking for a reason to argue?
Rae, Mike, etc… Perhaps you are all assuming I’m someone I’m not, misleading you to interpret why I believe this real life, now real death, story has a deeper meaning. Remember Rae, I once reminded you where assuming gets us, especially when you are so quick to accuse me of assuming.
@Anonymous: Why do you “believe” that this story has a deeper meaning? When did we discuss where assuming gets us? I don’t think I’ve ever talked to you.
I apologize if you think I’m assuming you’re just here to pick a fight, but that’s honestly what I am getting from you because you really aren’t making *that* much sense in your posts.
Rae, “but you can’t get pregnant without having sex in the first place.” Profound! Please calm down, this isn’t about who wins. A real girl, either was used, raped, or gave herself up for some casual sex, and, well the consequences are “potentially” dangerous, especially for that little baby boy who will never know the answer we will never get, or the life he deserved to have.
@Anonymous: I really don’t understand why you think this girl aborted or was going to have an abortion? Where are you getting that from?
Call me stupid, but I’m really not understanding your position, or where you’re coming from *at all*.
Anon ….
a few things…
1. you assume she was “used” for sex. I worked at an entire school of girls her age and younger who were pregnant (and NOT aborting). Yes they are young, but often the fathers are the exact same age, and in relationships with these girls. Its not fair of you to assume she was “used”.
2. “being okay” with “disposal methods”??? How the HECK do you know she was “okay” with it?? How do you know she wasn’t scared out of her mind, disoriented, in pain, etc… and had no idea what to do?
3. Young boys are not usually the ones who end up paying for abortions. Its usually the girl, and sometimes her parents.
4. Guess what. Menstruation being irregular at her age is a REALITY. a FACT. It has nothing to do with whatever complicated conspiracy you have spinning around in your head. Plenty of girls who have no intention of EVER having an abortion have irregular periods and don’t realize right away that they are pregnant. This has absolutely nothing to do with Planned Parenthood. Its just the way young women’s bodies work. Pregnancy and menstruation ARE bodily functions.
Rae, You can’t see the sense in my posts with all that emotion. It’s senseless to discuss how the human female body works when the larger story here is what is missing when young girls are so easily used and discarded. When I was 14, well never mind, purity is hardly a virtue understood even on a pro-life blog. Yes, we haven’t ever talked. But we did have a seemingly endless banter one night when I had hoped to help you understand that for most babies in the womb today, theonlything2fear is their potentially homicidal mother. TTFN!
Ciao?
Rae, 1. I never assumed she was used, please respond to the language as written. 2. She was ok with it because she hid it. How does a bleeding 14 year old decide she doesn’t need medical attention and is mindfull enough to throw the baby away in the trash? 3. And your point to my point is to prove your ignorance about what? I stated how a boy might see the consequences of his actions if he KNEW the consequences of his actions. You’re assuming. 4. Yep, OK, I get it, Uh Hu. Please go now in peace, assuming you have proven your point about bodily functions. I’ll sign off for now, and really please calm down, neither of us can win the race for any young girl faced with these difficult decisions…
How bout the Houston police interview the girl, find out who molested her, and prosecute them.
@theonlything2fear: Um…I didn’t make any of those points…that was Amanda.
Amanda, you said you suspected certain young girls at a high school were having sex. We need to make sure girls like these are provided with comprehensive sexual education that guides them towards more healthy behaviours. Making sure they are informed about the multiplicity of STDs out there today and how they are transmitted. Making sure young girls get a chance to see an ultrasound of a pregnant mother’s womb. Teaching them about the developemental stages of human life. They should be taught what condoms are so they know that condoms use is only 50% effective in preventing STD’s(per the CDC). They should be educated so they uderstand that the pills and shots available to reduce a woman’s fertility do not “prevent” pregnancy. Education without any agenda except to provide girls with honest information about the consequences of being sexually active. We could really make a difference in a lot of girls lives.
Truthseeker – this was a special school for pregnant teens – it was already a little late for that.
I was about 110 when I got pregnant with older son, and about 120 with younger son.
TR….What is your secret? I haven’t heard of such things since biblical times!!!
(just kidding….honestly, though…I did have to read that twice to get its meaning! That first sentence really threw me off!!!)
Posted by: JLM at March 31, 2008 7:25 PM
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I realized after it posted that it didnt come out right –
She could have known she was pregnant but not realized she was having a miscarriage – when she went to the bathroom she didnt know what to do or who to talk to – she paniced, put the fetus in the trash and went back to her seat dazed or even in a state of shock. We’re talking about a juvenile here – judgment is often not a strong suit at that age.
14?! 8th grade?! I just feel so sad for her. She must have been pretty freaked out. I used to teach Middle School. Some of the best years of my life were spent with those sweet, funny, awkward and brutally honest adolescents.
I used to teach middle school too, Carla! We have lots in common!
This story is awful. It reminds me of the story of the baby in the sewer system several weeks back …. Jill can you give us an update on that one? Never heard what happened.
Gaaaah, middle school. I’ve been convinced for years that if there is a hell, it’s middle school. Geh. Worst three years of my life.
Erin…agreed!! I HATED it. I figured I knew how awful it could be and wanted a better experience for the ones I taught. Man, I miss it. My students are now 25 or so, married, with kiddoes…..wah.
Kristi,
How cool is that?? Will we go back to The Hormone Jungle?! That is the question.
for me: NEVER!! I really was not a fan. I taught 7th grade and my students are now graduated and in college.
Unfortunately I had a little reunion with one former student yesterday …. I was volunteering at the Preg Center and she came in for a preg test.
Not the first time this has happened, but still very ackward!
I imagine so. :)
Have they figured out if this “apparent fetus” is a fetus yet?
Not sure Janet.
Maybe this apparent baby is a baby.
Gaaaah, middle school. I’ve been convinced for years that if there is a hell, it’s middle school. Geh. Worst three years of my life.
That’s purgatory…it prepares you for the actual HELL: high school!
It must require days of tedious testing in order to determine if an apparent fetus is a baby, or if the apparent baby is just a fetus.
Ugh, so much work to be done.
I just watched The Silent Scream on YouTube. I am sickened.
I just watched The Silent Scream on YouTube. I am sickened.
Posted by: Carla at April 1, 2008 3:27 PM
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http://www.plannedparenthood.org/issues-action/abortion/anti-abortion-video-6136.htm
PP but the facts are still the same
The Facts Speak Louder than “The Silent Scream”
In the mid-1980s, leaders of the anti-abortion movement produced a video called The Silent Scream. The video, epitomizing the anti-abortion agenda and strategy, tried to shift the focus of the abortion debate away from compassion for the health and needs of the woman to an exaggerated concern for the fetus.
Although riddled with scientific, medical, and legal inaccuracies as well as misleading statements and exaggerations, The Silent Scream is still wildly popular with anti-abortion zealots. And it continues to be a key tool in their propaganda efforts.
Originally designed to frighten American women away from choosing abortion, the video is now shown worldwide to troubled women who turn to so-called “crisis pregnancy centers” for assistance with their problem pregnancies. Clips from the film even run continuously on the World Wide Web.
As soon as it was released, Planned Parenthood
http://eileen.250x.com/Main/7_R_Eile/SilentScream.html
Wow TR. I have kept you quite busy, I see.
My expert opinion-I am still sickened.
http://www.violence.de/prescott/humanist/abortion.html
Wow TR. I have kept you quite busy, I see.
Posted by: Carla at April 1, 2008 3:48 PM
***********
Took me maybe 90 seconds
Thats what I thought – she was young, she didnt know what was going on, and after she went to the bathroom she panicked and didnt know what to do. Still – an example of how little parents can know about what is going on in their childs life.
Yes, I see where you get the same ol tired PC phrases from. Thank you.
Wow, TR, you got all that un-biased research right off of PP’s own website.
Bravo.
Now, if only PP weren’t such liars then MAYBE we could take their “expert testimony”…and do something other than shove it up our a*s
Hi Elizabeth!! :)
Hiii Carla, how are you doing? I have class tonight. :( Booooo class…actually I don’t mind biology class at all…if only I could get out of speech class. Sadly, it IS a requirement for my desired program. Only 7 more weeks though and then summah-time!!
MAYBE we could take their “expert testimony”…and do something other than shove it up our a*s
:: laughing ::
Gotta love it.
P.S. Elizabeth, is there a video that goes with that?
Doug, I’m always glad I can get a laugh. :)
Ooooooh-let the countdown begin Elizabeth!! I am very proud of you!! Now get to class, missy!
Hey Carla,
I still haven’t watched Silent Scream yet, but TR’s cold-blooded cut-and-paste drivel from the PP website in a frantic attempt to discredit a film that we can see with our own two eyes made me think of the balcony scene from the movie Schindler’s List. If you saw it, you would remember vividly the scene of the Nazi noncholantly shooting concentration camp prisoners from many yards away while smoking a cigarette. He might as well be shooting clay pigeons.
I guess he figured they were just bundles of undifferentiated cells, too. Look at them flinch and fall. No big deal, really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5I91j3a8q9g
Hey, you could look at it this way…by him shooting the concentration camp prisoners from afar, they neither experienced fear in anticipation of being killed, nor did they suffer for even a moment since they were shot with perfect precision. And you could even say that their killings were merciful and in their best interests, since they had a high probability of having suffered greatly by being worked and/or starved to death, and if not, then gassed. So, I guess that Nazi was actually doing the prisoners a favor, right TR?
TexasRed: I once corresponded with a doc in India who uses RU-486 for second trimester abortions.
Elizabeth, the large majority of miscarriages are pain free, subclinical events. Often the pregnant woman doesn’t notice it at all–it just seems like a slightly heavier menses.
If our beloved Bobby Bambino reads this…
Do you like Ultimate Fighting?
http://www.ufc.com/
If you like pro wrestling…..?
Is anyone else as surprised as I am that 14 year olds are taking school trips to NYC? Kids are growing up way to soon these days!
What will they look forward to when they are 18? 25?
We’re talking about a juvenile here – judgment is often not a strong suit at that age.
Nobody has mentioned the fact that this girl was only fourteen. TR says judgment is often not a strong suit at that age…well then why are these kids being given birth control without their parents knowledge? Why are they being taught how to do something (have sex) when even TR admits that their judgment is not their “strong suit”?
What is a fourteen year old doing pregnant to begin with?!?!?!?!
Just crazy…
Somg,
Tell that to Bethany about the pictures of her Blessing. Just a picture of menses right?!
mk, if she was pregnant, there’s a very likely chance she wasn’t being given birth control.
Besides, stop trying to control other people’s children. Who gives a damn who she had sex with? She’s not your kid, her body is not your body… shit happens in the real world sometimes!
@MK: Just gonna say, but one of my good friends has been having sex since she was 12-13 and it was with her 12-13 year old boyfriend.
OH, I get it! This was an early April Fools joke right?
We now have the proabort MSM telling us that BEFORE we even become pregnant with a FETUS we are carrying an APPARENT FETUS.
Like I’ve always maintained, the proabort’s will NEVER EVER admit to what a woman is actually pregnant with – A BABY!!
TR your 3:45pm post is filled with so many fallacies it’s really not worth responding. Your sources are from 1985 and are not unbiased research. BEEEEEEPPP
Try again.
BTW this statement is a complete LIE!“Planned Parenthood takes great care to advise and counsel women and their partners of the various options for managing an unwanted pregnancy. These include continuing the pregnancy with the options of keeping the child or giving it up for adoption, or having an abortion.”
This goes against everything this monolithic organization is promoting – rampant free sex with no obligations, no responibility and quick no hassle-abortions.
Edyt,
Get off YOUR high horse, please! A girl of 14 is SOMEBODY”S responsibility and HER BODY is both her and her parents responsibility!
Your so called “shit” shouldn’t be happening to a 14 year old girl!
Now the question is, who impregnated the scared child?
I pray to God that this young, scared girl wasn’t raped or abused, and that the person who may have done this to her didn’t put fear into her by telling her SHE would be killed or her family would be killed if she “talked”….
Patricia,
Like I’ve always maintained, the proabort’s will NEVER EVER admit to what a woman is actually pregnant with – A BABY!!
I like to interchange fetus and baby in my common conversation, since I don’t care what I call it. I’ll even admit to it being alive and human. OOOH does that totally rock your perception of pro-choicers?
TR your 3:45pm post is filled with so many fallacies it’s really not worth responding. Your sources are from 1985 and are not unbiased research. BEEEEEEPPP
Try again.
Silent Scream was created in 1980 and is not unbiased.
Get off YOUR high horse, please! A girl of 14 is SOMEBODY”S responsibility and HER BODY is both her and her parents responsibility!
Your so called “shit” shouldn’t be happening to a 14 year old girl!
Yes, she is her parent’s responsibility and I expect them to look into this matter further, in the privacy of their own home. That girl’s sex life is not your business to discuss.
And no, it shouldn’t happen to a 14 year old, but guess what, it does. She happens to be a product of abstinence-only education and honestly I can’t blame her for not knowing having sex gets you pregnant. I can’t blame her for not recognizing pregnancy symptoms. I can’t blame her for not using protection (or not using it correctly, whatever the case may be).
In fact, there’s no sense in blaming anyone because you and I don’t know the full situation. Nor should we. It’s none of our business. :)
LOL – “Silent Scream” is the biggest fake
I’ve know girls younger then fourteen who willingly had sex. They wanted to. Although I don’t think that a child under say… 16 could really understand sex they could certainly want to and urge their boyfriends to have sex with them. This society is just messed up. We give kids whatever they want, we treat them like these little perfect angels that are sent from God to do nothing but shine beacons of light into our lives, they aren’t. They’re just people. And people, young people, need rules and boundaries. They need their parents to grow up and take care of their kids instead of expecting society to do it.
This society, the pro-life society, sends the message, go ahead and have a baby, everyone else will take care of it. It seems like we tell our little girls the best thing they could be is a Mommy so they get pregnant and expect the world to bow to them.
Edyt:
“I like to interchange fetus and baby in my common conversation, since I don’t care what I call it. I’ll even admit to it being alive and human. OOOH does that totally rock your perception of pro-choicers? ”
No Edyt it doesn’t rock my perception because I’m quite aware that most proaborts (you are so NOT for choice in any way at all so I don’t use that term) could really care less about the girls and women in these types of predicaments otherwise they would never offer the crazy half-assed solutions that they do. Just remember Edyt that expendibility can work at BOTH ends of the spectrum too.
And where in your crystal ball does it state that this girl was the product of abstinence education? Another LIE that you proaborts like to float around.
This is likely a young girl who was abused and who PP would love to help cover up her victimization.
Stop dreaming Edyt and get into the real world. Teaching children at age 8 and 10 to put on a condom and have sex does not PROTECT them. This is a terrible form of abuse and shows a profound lack of respect and understanding as to how children develop emotionally, psychologically and sexually.
As the authorities identified her in the story, she is a “child”. A child deserves to be protected, not corrupted.
And it is everyone’s business when a minor child is in this sort of predicament – giving birth on a PLANE. Get a life Edyt!! Society has a vested interest in protecting a young girl.
“Society has a vested interest in protecting a young girl.”
Well society didn’t get pregnant, give birth to this girl then raise her for fourteen years. No one ever wants to blame the parents.
And where in your crystal ball does it state that this girl was the product of abstinence education?
Well, considering she’s only 14, and our current president has mandated funding for ab-only education for the past several years…
I’d say that’s “logic” not a crystal ball. Teehee, did you just call me a witch? :P
Teaching children at age 8 and 10 to put on a condom and have sex does not PROTECT them.
No, you’re right, it doesn’t. But if we educate our children we empower them to make the right decisions for themselves. Some will chose to have sex, some will choose to be abstinent. The important thing is that we teach them the right information and allow them to make their own decisions. Yes, they’re young, but you cannot keep them in a glass jar forever.
As the authorities identified her in the story, she is a “child”. A child deserves to be protected, not corrupted.
I agree. But we don’t know the circumstances of her pregnancy. She may have chosen to have sex on her own with someone she loves. We don’t know. So we cannot judge. Got it?
And it is everyone’s business when a minor child is in this sort of predicament – giving birth on a PLANE.
She didn’t give birth, she miscarried. Approximately 2/3 of all pregnancies end in miscarriage, often before the mother even realizes she was actually pregnant! Yes, it’s awful a child had to go through that, but I don’t believe pouncing on her or her parents for corrupting a child is the right choice.
We should be looking at this situation and contemplating what we can learn from it… not who can we blame. Honestly, what good did blaming people ever do?
No, you’re right, it doesn’t. But if we educate our children we empower them to make the right decisions for themselves.
At 8, and 10 which is when it’s not regularly done. These are children who can’t even brush their teeth on a regular basis! What a total joke you people are!
My point about the abstinence ed stays. YOU made an assumption EDYT!
She gave birth that’s what it’s called when a baby passes through the birth canal EDYT! She miscarried and gave birth to either a stillborn baby or a live baby who did not live long.
As for the witch comment, that was YOUR idea not mine!
RE my post at 9:37pm
At 8, and 10 which is when it’s not regularly done. These are children who can’t even brush their teeth on a regular basis! What a total joke you people are!
should read:
At 8, and 10 which is when it’s regularly done!
Ah, time for my beauty sleep!
Way to ignore my post.
Jess,
I have no problem blaming the parents…
Which is part of the reason I find sex education in schools to be a joke..abstinence-only and comprehensive..It’s ALL a joke. Most kids in schools today don’t even know who the first 3 presidents of this country were, and we expect the schools to talk about SEX to our kids. PLEASE!
Parents should start doing their job.
This society, the pro-life society, sends the message, go ahead and have a baby, everyone else will take care of it. It seems like we tell our little girls the best thing they could be is a Mommy so they get pregnant and expect the world to bow to them.
Posted by: Jess at April 1, 2008 9:17 PM
Sorry Jess but that’s an asinine statement. We in NO WAY say everyone else will take care of it. We want the girls to realize the consequences of their actions. Yes, they can give the baby up for adoption but they need to deal with the 9 months of pregnancy. It’s the Pro-abort side that tells them don’t worry, do what you want there’s always a way out.
Everywhere you turn women who have children are looked down upon. Take Amanda(?) and her blog that Jill references. To her women who have children are the dregs of society. I’d like to visit the world you live in if you feel that society tells women the best thing you can be is a mommy. With 6 kids I’d be a celebrity!
Kristen, 10:26 p.m.
I totally agree!
Jess,
I don’t know really ANYONE that is telling little girls that they should have children and be Mommy’s.
But in a society that does nothing but downplay the role of mothers and what they do, there has to be SOMEONE out there that stands up and says that being a mother IS an important job AND one that counts! If you interpret that as being, “Oh, hunny go pop out some kids and you’ll be fine,” then you have a long way to go in your understanding of what we are actually trying to say here.
Jess,
Way to ignore my post.
Can you slow down your thought process and post one or two thoughts at a time instead of ten? It makes replying a bit easier:)
….This society, the pro-life society, sends the message, go ahead and have a baby, everyone else will take care of it. It seems like we tell our little girls the best thing they could be is a Mommy so they get pregnant and expect the world to bow to them……
I’m not sure what the point of your post is and how it relates to this story. Can you clarify? Thanks.
Something occurred to me. If a crime was committed….the baby was still alive after delivery and was discarded alive into the trash, which state law would be used if the plane was in the air, or would it be considered a federal crime?
I hope this isn’t a stupid question.
It’s a federal crime. The FBI would have to investigate it.
And no, that’s not a stupid question.
I wanted to add … just because it’s a federal crime doesn’t mean the punishment would be greater. It just means she’d be tried in a federal court, rather than a state court. Does that make sense?
> And no, that’s not a stupid question.
Phew! Thanks for the answer. Yes, it does make sense.
I think its strange so many of you either believe or WANT to believe this girl was a victim somehow of who ever fathered her baby.
I know that image of the older, persuasive, pressuring boyfriend comes to mind in situations like this a lot… but I gotta tell you guys, and I was surprised when I found this out, but out of the 20+ girls in the program for pregnant teens I was working with, the vast majority of the mom’s boyfriends were the same age, and in some cases even younger. Not victims. Not used. Not raped. Not pressured. In fact a few of them told me quite bluntly it was their idea to have sex, or even that they got pregnant on purpose.
Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying its GOOD that girls that young are choosing to have sex, far from it, but its quite possible she is FAR from the victim a lot of you seem to feel she is.
Elizabeth, the large majority of miscarriages are pain free, subclinical events. Often the pregnant woman doesn’t notice it at all–it just seems like a slightly heavier menses.
Posted by: SoMG at April 1, 2008 5:48 PM
*****
SoMG,
It probably feels more like somebody sticking tools in cervix to hold it open while sticking a vaccum in and sucking a fetus out.
Amanda,
I do find that interesting as well..but we do see many times images on tv and the media of guys being the ones pursuing the sexual relationship..so I imagine that may be where it comes from.
It’s stereotypical to think that the guy’s are the ones always the first to bring up sex in the relationship.
But I do find something very tragic about a 14-year old wanting to get pregnant. Especially since it is dangerous for such young girls because their bodies are still growing and forming. It is quite a problem with no simple solution.
Amanda said:
but I gotta tell you guys, and I was surprised when I found this out, but out of the 20+ girls in the program for pregnant teens I was working with, the vast majority of the mom’s boyfriends were the same age, and in some cases even younger.
*******
Amanda, why do you find it strange that a person would think it s important to find out “who” impregnated the fourteen year old girl. We will either find a rapist/molester that needs to be taken off the streets hat we find the answer to that question. If even one out of twenty of those girls was raped, we must find these predators and bring them to justice, if we don’t, they will likely re-offend over and over and over till they are stopped. comprende?
I think it is negligent for any responsible member of society to find out a pregnant fourteen year old and not determine “how” she got pregnant. Even if it was a fourteen year old boy that got her pregnant, it is in everybodies best interset that the boy be found and that he get “counseling” at a minimum.
Truthseeker… I have to laugh when people “respond” to a comment without actually RESPONDING to anything that I actually said.
I NEVER said people shouldn’t find out how she got pregnant, never even HINTED at that. I said I think its odd everyone is assuming she’s a victim when its more likely, stats wise, that she isn’t.
If you want to say stuff, just say it… don’t try to frame it like its a response to my comment, when I wasn’t saying anything even CLOSE to what you’re insinuating I did.
Imagine this: Obo said that babies were punishment for a mistake.
Well, he’s right about one thing, unborn infants are babies.
Go Mamabama!!!!! I think you’re getting it.
Amanda,
I found it offensive when you stated that people WANT to believe she is a victim. Maybe you could answer this question for me.
If it is constructive for responsible adults to find out if a fourteen year old pregnant girl was raped, then why do yo find it so strange that people engage in conversation about her as if she could be a victim?
Why the heck would you be offended unless you are one of the people who insisted on talking about this girl like they knew she was a victim without knowing ANYTHING about her or how she got pregnant?
And are you seriously asking me why I find it strange that people are reaching conclusions with no facts or evidence to back it up?
The answer is because its a stereotypical assumption reached through absolutely ZERO evidence. How can you be objective about something when you’ve already painted the picture of her in your mind as being a victim? Like Elizabeth said, its all based on false gender stereotypes and not at all based on reality.
As a mommy I am feeling for everyone involved. A 14 year old is a child. She was pregnant. Yes, I have a picture in my mind but not the facts. I can’t help wondering about her, her parents, the baby, the boy that was involved….
As for sex ed…abstinence may be taught in schools but it is also taught in HOMES across the land. I love my children dearly and would die for them. I will protect them with everything in me. My son is 11, my daughter will soon be 8.(Also have 2 more sons)What kind of parent would I be if I threw some condoms their way and explained how they might “protect” them some day. Do you honestly think I would rely on latex to protect my children from diseases that could possibly KILL them??!! A condom hardly protects you from a broken heart either, does it? My children know the FACTS and the TRUTH. Saving yourself for marriage is the best protection there is.
Wow, TR, you got all that un-biased research right off of PP’s own website.
Bravo.
Now, if only PP weren’t such liars then MAYBE we could take their “expert testimony”…and do something other than shove it up our a*s
Posted by: Elizabeth at April 1, 2008 4:01 PM
***********************
Do you want to pretend the experts are all pro choice advocates? Fine – check them all out and tell us what you come up with. I find it hilarious that you can talk about ‘dishonesty’ in light of all the lies in The Silent Scream.
Yes, I see where you get the same ol tired PC phrases from. Thank you.
Posted by: Carla at April 1, 2008 3:58 PM
**********************
Its called being honest and telling the truth – a foreign concept to you, I know –
“Especially since it is dangerous for such young girls because their bodies are still growing and forming.”
Elizabeth, do you think a ten or eleven year old who was raped should be able to get an abortion? Do you think she should at least get the morning after pill?
PamamaMama trying to draw parallells between The Silent Sc(re)am and the Nazis is sheer hysterical idiocy. Refusing to face the facts about the film just makes you look poorly educated and uninformed.
We’re talking about a juvenile here – judgment is often not a strong suit at that age.
Nobody has mentioned the fact that this girl was only fourteen. TR says judgment is often not a strong suit at that age…well then why are these kids being given birth control without their parents knowledge? Why are they being taught how to do something (have sex) when even TR admits that their judgment is not their “strong suit”?
What is a fourteen year old doing pregnant to begin with?!?!?!?!
Just crazy…
Posted by: mk at April 1, 2008 7:14 PM
*****************
What in the world are you ranting about? Who is ‘teaching’ these kids ‘how’ to have sex? where do you get that bizarre idea? do you really believe they need to be ‘taught’?
TR your 3:45pm post is filled with so many fallacies it’s really not worth responding. Your sources are from 1985 and are not unbiased research. BEEEEEEPPP
Try again.
**************
‘Not worth’ responding too? ROFL – yeah, right. ‘Its wrong but I just cant be bothered to prove it’.
I wouldnt be surprised to find out the 14 year old girl was impregnated by her same aged boyfriend
Well what do you guys think of when you think of baby? I mean, they’re doing an operation on a baby, do they mean while still inside of the mother? Or do they mean a ten month old? My baby has a cut, how did it get a cut in your uterus? Is the baby going to die? Or is it an 11 month old with a paper cut? A baby and fetus are still human, a teenager and senior citizen is still a human but you wouldn’t refer to a 70 year old as a toddler. It would be confusing.
Well what do you guys think of when you think of baby? I mean, they’re doing an operation on a baby, do they mean while still inside of the mother? Or do they mean a ten month old? My baby has a cut, how did it get a cut in your uterus? Is the baby going to die? Or is it an 11 month old with a paper cut? A baby and fetus are still human, a teenager and senior citizen is still a human but you wouldn’t refer to a 70 year old as a toddler. It would be confusing.
Well what do you guys think of when you think of baby? I mean, they’re doing an operation on a baby, do they mean while still inside of the mother? Or do they mean a ten month old? My baby has a cut, how did it get a cut in your uterus? Is the baby going to die? Or is it an 11 month old with a paper cut? A baby and fetus are still human, a teenager and senior citizen is still a human but you wouldn’t refer to a 70 year old as a toddler. It would be confusing.
The answer is because its a stereotypical assumption reached through absolutely ZERO evidence. How can you be objective about something when you’ve already painted the picture of her in your mind as being a victim? Like Elizabeth said, its all based on false gender stereotypes and not at all based on reality.
Posted by: Amanda at April 2, 2008 8:23 AM
**********
Amanda, HELLO, anybody home. By federal law this girl is below the age of sexual consent so it is not stereo typical at all to look at her as a victim. Somebody becomes a victim of rape when the sex is not consentual. Therefore it is not stereotypical, but rather is it logical, rational, and noble to support her as victim as she deals with what has happened to her. Nobody said she IS a victim of rape. Everybody is saying that it is important to have an investigation to find out wether or not she was a victim of rape.
“By federal law this girl is below the age of sexual consent so it is not stereo typical at all to look at her as a victim. ”
Uhhh… again you’re making assumptions. How do you know the father wasn’t under the age of sexual consent as well? Because you’ve got a built in stereotype of an older boy/man impregnating her. With ZERO evidence to base that from. While that kind of thing DOES happen, in most cases both mother and father are below the age of consent… so to automatically peg the GIRL as the victim is…
Drum roll please?
A gender stereotype!! Which is my whoooooole point.
You’re still trying to frame your responses like I’m saying no one should care how she got pregnant. Still haven’t said anything like that …at all. But hey, whatever floats your boat my friend.
Hello again Amanda…anybody home????
The EVIDENCE is that she is fourteen years old. Further investigation will determine wether or not she was raped, but further investigaion is not required to determine she is a victim. That means, according to current federal law the fact that she is fourteen makes her a victim because she is not able to legally consent to sex with a partner of ANY age.
Colorado RTL took the audio of the Life Dynamics PP
sting – where they tell an underage girl to call back
and not mention the age of her adult male impregnator –
to Colorado’s Republican Attorney General, John Suthers.
His deputy, Jason Dunn, told us there was nothing that
could be done!
William Brennan is a professor in the St. Louis University School of Social Service. His most recent book, Dehumanizing the Vulnerable: When Word Games Take Lives, is a Loyola University Press bestseller in its third printing.
Anti-Fetal Rhetoric: America’s Best-Loved Hate Speech
As children we sang, “Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt A. me.” We were wrong. Violent words pave the way for violent deeds. Name-calling is an indispensable component of all levels of oppression, from discrimination to segregation to enslavement to outright annihilation.
The annihilation started by Roe v. Wade large-scale, legal killing of humans before birth persists unabated, and numerous explanations have been advanced for this tragic state of affairs: rampant materialism, the sexual revolution, a narcissistic culture, a pervasive sense of alienation, the lack of moral absolutes, the decline of religion, an encroaching culture of death, and a media elite beholden to the abortion establishment.
All these likely play a role in keeping Roe v. Wade the law of the land. But name-calling – degrading language – is central to the success of this contemporary war on the unborn.
Leslie, the unborn in this argument are just as human as you and me. Call the unborn anything, and that still holds true. Terminology doesn’t make them any more or any less human.
Materialism, etc., – yes, I think you could say that is part of the reason that people don’t want to continue all pregnancies. But really, what of it?
If a given woman doesn’t want to because she will make more money, etc., or even just because she thinks it will improve her financial condition, so what?
I don’t think you have any real need for one more person on earth to the extent that we tell the woman “no,” regardless of what her reasons are.
Doug
Uhh… truthseeker? Hon… there is no “federal age of consent.”
Consent varies from state to state.
In Arkansas, a 14 year old can have sex with anyone under 18.
Mississipi has no age of consent, but if you’re 17 or older you can get penalized for having sex with someone who is 14-16 and anyone can get penalized for sleeping with someone under 14. It seems that a 14 year old can have sex with another 14 year old.
Pennsylvania is 13 as long as the partner is less than 4 years older.
Tennessee … age of consent is 13.
Again, there’s no federal age of consent.
Colorado RTL took the audio of the Life Dynamics PP sting – where they tell an underage girl to call back and not mention the age of her adult male impregnator
IMO this type of clowning around just demeans Life Dynamics and further makes them look like nutjobs.
That said, there is a balance to be drawn between the privacy of the girl and what I consider a need to prosecute older guys if rape or statutory rape occurred.
Truthseeker and Leslie – agreed that it’s statutory rape, at times, but if the girl and boy would both be 14, for example, then I hardly think it’s the same thing as if the boy is significantly older.
Jess: A baby and fetus are still human, a teenager and senior citizen is still a human but you wouldn’t refer to a 70 year old as a toddler. It would be confusing.
Jess, I think “baby” is fine for the unborn, i.e., it’s well-understood and does fit according to some dictionary definitions. Of course, dictionaries are descriptive, not prescriptive, so no big deal there.
That is not to say that stating, “It’s a baby” is any meaningful argument in the abortion debate, same as for “It’s not a baby.” I have heard so much wrangling back and forth over the years about that one word – wrangling that I consider a big waste of time.
I hear what you’re saying about the stages of development, and personally, I think a “baby” can be a newborn or infant, then a toddler, then a child, etc. Yet it’s also not so simple, because of our language and all the shades of meaning. It’s well-understood to say, “I’m going to have a baby,” but also, if somebody asks a pregnant woman, “Is there a baby in there,” and she says “yes,” then who can really argue with her? And what would be the point, in that circumstance?
Doug
Again, there’s no federal age of consent.
Posted by: Edyt at April 2, 2008 1:20 PM
******
yup – you can get skrewed by the federal government regardless of your age and its perfectly legal
the large majority of miscarriages are pain free, subclinical events. Often the pregnant woman doesn’t notice it at all–it just seems like a slightly heavier menses.
Posted by: SoMG at April 1, 2008 5:48 PM
What a ridiculous comment!!! SoMG, you’ve clearly never experienced a miscarriage before.
And let’s not forget, that the miscarriage in question — the 14yr old girl on the plane — was apparently a 2nd trimester miscarriage.
Have you ever experienced a 2nd trimester miscarriage, SoMG??
Well, I have. And I can tell you unequivocally it was the most painful experience of my entire life. (and by painful I mean physically painful). It made giving birth to my daughter feel like a walk in the park. I was hooked up to 2IV’s of Nubain and still the pain was so bad I was screaming at the top of my lungs.
Now, I don’t presume to know what type of pain this 14-yr-old girl was in (or wasn’t in) while on the plane. Every experience is different. But for you to state that most miscarriages are pain-free events is inaccurate and very misleading.
Anybody here ever had a “pain-free subclinical” miscarriage in the 2nd trimester? I’d love to hear your story.
“Especially since it is dangerous for such young girls because their bodies are still growing and forming.”
Elizabeth, do you think a ten or eleven year old who was raped should be able to get an abortion? Do you think she should at least get the morning after pill?
I think both would screw her body up immensely for the rest of her life to be honest. In the physical sense I mean. But being pregnant at such a young age is dangerous too so I don’t know. Are girls getting their period that young? I got mine at 12, and I was the first according to all the little girl-friends I had at the time.
“but further investigaion is not required to determine she is a victim. That means, according to current federal law the fact that she is fourteen makes her a victim”
Um. Wow. Where to begin.
1. If she and the father of this baby were the same age, and she consented to intercourse, how is she a victim?? There is absolutely investigation needed to determine that to be true or not.
2. Current federal law? Really? Care to cite in “Federal law” where it says a 14 year old who consents to sex is automatically a victim regardless of the age of the person she had sex with?
3. You are proving my point. Its clear that you WANT to paint a picture of this girl in your mind as a victim, for reasons I do not understand. Allowing yourself to believe anyone that age who has sex must be a victim is a dangerous mindset. The majority of sexually active teen girls are consenting and willing sexual partners…NOT victims. To treat them as such is underestimating them a great deal, which will make it a lot harder to get through to them and change their risky behaviors.
Trust me. I went in to my internship staring at the bulging bellies of 13, 14, and 15 year old girls. My immediate gut reaction, due to the exact stereotypes I am discussing here, was that the fathers were older, and maybe had pressured them. BOY was I wrong. As I said before, several of them, including a 13 year old, told me it was HER idea to have sex with her 14 year old boyfriend, but that she was opposed to birth control for religious reasons. She was quite proud to be pregnant. She was young, but she was FAR from a victim.
Amanda,
How many of those young pregnant girls had fathers that were involved in their lives?
That phrase…14 year old mother…..keeps ringing in my head.
How many of those young pregnant girls had fathers that were involved in their lives?
I think the question here is also, How many of those young pregnant girls had ANYONE that was involved in their lives?
Agreed Elizabeth!! :)
Carla –
This would be an estimation because even though I discussed it with all of them, I didn’t keep records on that question, but I’d say with this group it was about 50/50.
There were 23 girls in my class, and 17 who showed up regularly. Of those 17 girls, 3 of the fathers came to the class with them, and 1 of them had a new boyfriend who came with her (not the father of her baby). A handful of them (4 or 5?) said the father was active, or if not him, at least his parents.
In the case of the youngest girl in my class (12 when she concieved), her parents had kicked her out, and she was living with the father (14) and his parents, though they were no longer a “couple”.
It seemed like the younger they were, the more likely the father was involved, probably because they were SO young that their parents still had some means of ensuring their kid did the right thing. I’ll have to check with the girl who ran the 17-19 year old group and see if there was a significant difference in the dad’s involvement that could be connected to age.
The one girl that really pops out in my head as being a victim was actually 16. Boyfriend was 17. Proposed to her because she wanted to be engaged before she lost her virginity. She got pregnant, he vanished. She was an emotional wreck – cried every week, and still wore the engagement ring even though the boy had changed his phone number and not contacted her for months.
Meanwhile, I had a 15 year old who admitted with a smile on her face that she poked holes in the condoms her boyfriend wore, “cuz his parents are loaded”. (would Truthseeker still want to claim she is automatically a victim too I wonder??)
The one girl that really pops out in my head as being a victim was actually 16. Boyfriend was 17. Proposed to her because she wanted to be engaged before she lost her virginity. She got pregnant, he vanished. She was an emotional wreck – cried every week, and still wore the engagement ring even though the boy had changed his phone number and not contacted her for months.
Meanwhile, I had a 15 year old who admitted with a smile on her face that she poked holes in the condoms her boyfriend wore, “cuz his parents are loaded”. (would Truthseeker still want to claim she is automatically a victim too I wonder??)
WOW to both of those stories, Amanda. The first one is very sad, and the 2nd one is just disturbing frankly.
I’m sorry sweets. I meant how many of the girls had THEIR own fathers involved in their lives? or their mothers? I’m confused.
I knew a girl once who got pregnant on purpose by a guy who had another kid that he didn’t take care of, because she was jealous the other girl had a kid by him and she didn’t. They got married but he cheated on her a lot, including with his first baby’s mother, who got pregnant again by him while he was married. So, if you’re keeping count that’s Baby Mama #1: 2 kids, no dad, and Baby Mama #2: 1 kid, no dad.
Needless to say, that worked out just lovely for all of them.
Speaking from experience here. Neither of my parents were involved in my life. I sought love and affection in some pretty scary relationships.
The lack of parental involvement in most cases has a lot to do with the risky behaviors of young people.
I remember teaching middle school. I had just lost a child to miscarriage and was devastated. One of my students (15) told me she was pregnant! With twins! She was thrilled…
Ugh, Carla :(
I’m so sorry.
I def. agree w/ you that the amount of parental involvement (or lack of) in many cases is connected to behavior in kids this age.
I can not IMAGINE being 13/14/15 and being thrilled to be pregnant! CRAZY!!!!!
I do see this play out often at the Preg. Center where I volunteer though. Very young girls being totally bummed when her preg test comes back negative. Not the majority, but it happens.
Thanks Kristi. No worries. I have a wealth of info for my younguns, eh? :) All of my experiences have taught me a thing or ten.
Our culture downplays the important role that parents play in the lives of their children. Involved, loving parents who keep the lines of communication open have much more influence than the culture thinks, states, believes.
All of my experiences have taught me a thing or ten.
LOL, Carla!!! I’ve never heard that one before!!!
Meanwhile, I had a 15 year old who admitted with a smile on her face that she poked holes in the condoms her boyfriend wore, “cuz his parents are loaded”. (would Truthseeker still want to claim she is automatically a victim too I wonder??)
Posted by: Amanda at April 2, 2008 4:35 PM
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YES
But I stand corrected that the law is a state law and not a federal law. Regardless of how old the male is, when a fourteen year old girl has sex she does not understand the possible long term ramifications of her actions. The state recognizes this and so should you. It is possible that both participants could be “victims” if neither really grasps the ramifications of what they are doing.
I’ll call a fetus a baby if I can call a baby that’s already born a post-baby.
Carla –
I think almost all of them were living with single moms – most of their moms were young too. Its very clearly a cycle, which is why I don’t place too much importance either way on the type of sex ed they’re getting at school – I think its plain to see that these behaviors stem from home life.
“No crime”???
If the girl is 14 then there certainly is a crime – sex with a minor!!!
How awful for the poor child to suffer such horrible physical pain and then the emotional pain of knowing a baby had died. Both of these children will be in my prayers.
Meg-
I think we’ve covered this…both people involved were 14-years old…no statutory rape. No crime.
Meg,
I will also say a prayer for her and a prayer for her baby.
Elizabeth, no crime for statutory rape, but yes a crime for killing the baby.
Thank you Amanda.
Most of the students I taught had horrid backgrounds and had nobody who really seemed to care about them one way or another. Well, I did. :)
I admire you for being with these girls. It must have been hard. I am sure for some the urge to have a baby “someone to love me unconditionally” was pretty strong. Strong enough to poke holes in a condom even. sigh
HI JLM!!!
Sorry I missed ya! I probably should have written
“I learned a thing or twenty!! :)
Truthseeker…. did you not read the article?
She miscarried, a non viable, still born…. no one killed a baby.
Amanda,
I was thinking of the other thread where the fourteen year old tried flushing the live third trimester baby down the toilet.
I’ll call a fetus a baby if I can call a baby that’s already born a post-baby.
Posted by: Jess at April 2, 2008 10:20 PM
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How bout post womb dwelling bundles of love?
Oooh. I like bundles of love!!
“post womb dwelling bundles of love?”
Ok
I’ll call a fetus a baby if I can call a baby that’s already born a post-baby.
Posted by: Jess at April 2, 2008 10:20 PM
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Post-baby? How about a baby-baby?
Janet, I think she’s referring to stages of development.
Just like you probably wouldn’t call an toddler a “teenager”, you shouldn’t refer to a fetus as a “baby”. Or you wouldn’t call a catapillar a “butterfly” because it hasn’t reached that stage of development yet.
It’s not an argument about abortion at all, just proper word use.
I have no problem calling an unborn baby a fetus..it is a natural stage in development.
But I do find it more appropriate to use baby in the context of “I’m going to have a baby” which is completely accurate wouldn’t you say? Since we’re talking in future terms and in the future after the fetus comes out, it is a baby. Well, a neonate technically. But I don’t hear many people saying, “Look at my little neonate, how adorable” lol.
Wow, it is REALLY late….
Hi Elizabeth,
I just threw a shower for a friend. A baby shower. Not a fetus shower. She is huge with child. Even my 2 year old knows that a swollen belly=baby!!!!
But Carla if I were pregnant and I said, “I have a baby” you would think I wasn’t pregnant, but already had a child who was out of my womb. Could be confuseing.
No. Point to your belly say “I have a baby” and I would nod and smile and totally get what you are saying. It’s the mom thing and I hope that one day my sweet Jess, you will KNOW of what I speak. Oh, and I would also ask to rub your belly and feel a kick or two. :) You can politely decline.
Mine too Carla…she pointed to her grandma’s belly and said “baby”
Needless to say, my mom was NOT pleased! lol
@Elizabeth: Oh my goddess…that happened to my mom once too! My poor mother carries all her weight around her midsection (as do I…ugh, it sucks being an “apple”).
My dad looks like he’s going to have twins…:-p
Hi Elizabeth,
I just threw a shower for a friend. A baby shower. Not a fetus shower. She is huge with child. Even my 2 year old knows that a swollen belly=baby!!!!
Posted by: Carla at April 4, 2008 6:55 AM
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What do you imagine a fetus can use? are there any gifts FOR a fetus? The items wont be used until she HAS her baby and its no longer a fetus. Its a baby shower because the items wont be used until there IS a baby and that means birth.
my uncle says he has “Dunlap Disease.”
The belly done lapped over the belt.
“Oh, and I would also ask to rub your belly and feel a kick or two. :)”
Carla, you don’t have to wait for me to get pregnant to do that : )
@TexasRed who stated, “Thats what I thought – she was young, she didnt know what was going on, and after she went to the bathroom she panicked and didnt know what to do. Still – an example of how little parents can know about what is going on in their childs life.” AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH! A not so silent scream! She didn’t know what was going on? She was bleeding! You don’t have to know WHY you’re bleeding to know something is very wrong.. Bleeding is what, take it or leave it now? Yes, she’s young, but old enough to have sex. There are consequences to having sex. The girls get used, the boys have a few minutes of fun and then the nightmare begins. Am I? Could I be? I missed my…! The tragedy in this girls life stems from her ability to “throw away” life like garbage. Don’t tell me about miscarriage. Tell me why any young girl’s life in this country of excess is so empty that she’s looking for sex, alcohol and drugs to amuse herself. By the way, the CDC statistics support the 4,320 silent screams really did happen today, and yesterday…