Miscarriage of cruelty
I met moderator Bethany a little over 1 year ago via email when she sent me photos of her recently miscarried 6-week-old baby, who Bethany named Blessing.
I posted Blessing’s photos, and to this day Bethany receives emails and comments from mothers wanting to share with Bethany the pain of the loss of their baby.
But the dark side of the world is inhabited by twisted, hurtful people. Over the weekend, Bethany received 2 emails from “Barbra Walters” with photoshopped pictures of Blessing. Bethany gave me permission to post.
See more photos on page 2. Can’t fathom evil people who would do this. Sorry, Bethany… :(
Apr.15, 2008 6:40 am |
Miscarriage |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
I am so sorry Bethany. My heart hurts but my righteous anger burns.
“Barbra” has some real issues!
Bethany: My heart goes out to you. “barbra” is a cruel b*&%$.
:(
We do keep trying to say that once you let something as hideous as abortion into your heart it’s only a matter of time before everything else is colored by this type of thinking.
As awful as these photos are, they don’t really surprise me. These pictures pale in comparison to actually killing your own child.
Yes, we often use pictures of aborted babies to get our point across, but we ALWAYS show these little ones respect.
This is just deplorable. I wonder how the real Barbara Walters feels about her name being used in this way. Maybe we should send her a copy.
Chris A, I read your blog post, and it does not refute my position. Which is:
If you’re a person and you’re located inside another person’s body, then the other person has the right to kill and evict you when she wants, because it’s HER body.
Nowhere in your long post do you refute this position.
Keep trying.
This brings tears to my eyes. Bethany, I can’t even begin…
Bethany – I am so sorry. We need to pray for this Barbra and all others of like mind.
And yes – I think we should send the real Barbara Walters the email that was done in her name.
Somg – the reason that we should not abort is because abortion ends a human life – plain and simple.
Things may not be convenient or ideal, but we as a civilized people should not end the life of another human – and certainly not because of location. The woman may have the power – but that does not make things right.
Whites used this excuse when Black Americans were south of the Mason-Dixon line. Did their location make it ok to lynch Blacks? No – humans are human no matter their location. And if we think that humans have an intrinsic dignity, then they need to be treated with respect, not torture, maiming, slavery, abortion or other atrocity.
Chris A, you wrote in your blog post:
“The pre-condition which initially raises this issue is that the mother consented to intercourse, but not the resulting pregnancy: hence the abortion.”
I disagree with you here: I think by consenting to sexual intercourse the woman DOES consent to the risk of pregnancy, but she does NOT commit or promise to carry the pregnancy to term.
I once knew a woman who had the following engraved on her diaphragm (in small letters): “If you form in my uterus, oh not-yet-conceived fetus-to-be, I offer you a few weeks of intrauterine life there, until I learn I’m pregnant and get to an abortion doc. That’s ALL I offer you; take it or leave it. Preferably leave it.”
You wrote: “Thompson et al. concede that the [UNBORN] child is indeed a human being. However, the extent of her rights as a human being are contested, immediately indicating that the unborn’s personhood is not considered the same as that of the born human being,”
Wrong. In my view, the unborn’s personhood IS considered the same as the personhood of the born human being. Born human beings are not allowed to enter and occupy the body of another person without the other person’s continuing consent. With respect to the right to occupy other person’s bodies, the born and unborn are treated exactly alike–both require the other person’s CONTINUING consent, and are subject to being killed and removed from the other person’s body if that consent is withdrawn.
You then posted a long section on personhood, which is irrelevent to me, because I recognize that the unborn is a person who should enjoy all the same rights that the born enjoy, (but not SPECIAL rights.)
SoMG,
Your sociopathy is showing again. I don’t know if you noticed, but some depraved person took liberties with photos of Bethany’s baby. I realize that sometimes, due to your lack of empathy (which is not your fault as your simply lacking this human element) you need a little prompting as to how regular folks should react to something.
Posting that it doesn’t matter if a baby is a person, killing it is perfectly accetpable, on this particular thread, is, to say the least, uncool.
Don’t worry. Hang around with people that actually have the ability to feel emotion long enough, and you’ll be able to imitate it in due time.
Keep trying.
-both require the other person’s CONTINUING consent, and are subject to being killed and removed from the other person’s body if that consent is withdrawn.
And this always leads to the question of Siamese Twins. Who decides which twin gets the upper hand and has the other killed?
JoyfromIllinois, you wrote: “Somg – the reason that we should not abort is because abortion ends a human life – plain and simple. ”
That’s a reason you might use to CONVINCE a woman not to choose abortion, but it’s not a good enough reason to deny an abortion to a woman who wants one.
If you’re a person and you’re located inside another person’s body, then the other person has the right to kill and evict you when she wants, because it’s HER body.
Once again, MK, unable to refute the argument with logic, uses words like “sociopathy” and “uncool” instead.
She does this because she knows she cannot refute the argument with logic.
This conversation about bodily autonomy is inappropriate for this thread.
I think that the woman who sent those was most likely post abortive. I could be wrong, but I can’t imagine anyone else who would sit there and take so much time manipulating those photos, and send them with the intentions of being cruel like that. I feel that she is not thinking rationally.
She kind of reminded me of Sally, who is post- abortive and feels the need to demean my experience with cruel words. So like some of you said, I do feel sorry for her, and I told her that I was sorry about her abortion, and hope that she will find a way to heal her hurting heart.
Thanks for all the kind words, all.
I moved it to this thread because the other thread is at the bottom of my screen and soon will not show up, and Chris A reproached me for not responding to his argument.
Oh, my goodness. Bethany, I am so so so so very sorry. Those pictures are disgusting and I am having a very hard time not wishing the worst upon the person who would do this. *hug*
How about moving it to the thread below this, SoMG?
*hugs Bethany again for good measure*
This makes me cry. :(
SoMG – I’m not arguing with you. I’m done. You’re showing us all right here, and right now that you have no idea how to treat living human beings, full grown adults
because you are not respecting Bethany as a PERSON!
Grow up.
Because right now, you’re no better than the idiot that insulted Bethany above. Go away. You don’t know what decency and respect means.
——
SoMG at April 13, 2008 7:39 PM
SoMG – Like I said before, if a sociopath were to put a pencil within 3 inches of my eye, I would feel threatened and kill the sociopath in self-defense. Context is vital to the moral scope, but you chose to ignore that point. So, like Doug, if you don’t respect me enough to read what I wrote, in particular, when I refuted your argument I have no reason to believe you care enough about me as a person.
And If you don’t care about me, when you have every reason to believe I’m an intrinsically valuable human being like yourself, why would you care about an unborn human being?
And since you don’t believe consent implies on-going agreement, why should anyone trust you?
I don’t wish to associate with people who don’t care for me, and who I don’t trust with my life. Nor do I want them having anything to do with the ones I love, including making law that will impact our posterity.
So SoMG – I’ll refrain from arguing with you and urge others to do likewise.
She does this because she knows she cannot refute the argument with logic.
No, actually I used those words because my friend Bethany doesn’t need to hear you cold an callous outlook on life.
And I use the term “sociopath” because I feel bad that you don’t understand simple etiquette and I thought I would help you along.
I don’t look at calling you a sociopath as an insult tho, any more than I would look at calling a diabetic a diabetic. You were born without a conscience, through no fault of your own. I’m just trying to help you understand how “normal” people work. It really is necessary in the real world. I’m assuming, possibly inaccurately, that you don’t want to advertise this shortcoming. If you don’t care, then I will no longer point out your social faux pas’. Just trying to save you some embarassment…
I moved it to this thread because the other thread is at the bottom of my screen and soon will not show up, and Chris A reproached me for not responding to his argument.
Now you see there, you’re just proving my point. Any normal person would realize that the greater offense would not be neglecting to answer someones question, but rather bringing up this particular topic on this particular post…
Chris A–in other words, you can’t refute my argument, so you’re walking away in a huff.
A more mature approach would be to acknowlege that my position withstands all your arguments, and that right-to-lifism is wrong.
Okay SOMG, you win all arguments because you say so. Feel better?
Bethany, I think you need a wonderful vacation….We should all send you on a cruise to the Bahamas with your hubby. Rae, MK, and I will babysit your three little ones. Deal?
Lyssie, that sounds like a LOT of fun! :) I’m in! :) hehe
Bethany: I don’t win ALL arguments but I do win this one.
None of you has refuted it; you all resort to insults or walking away in a huff. That’s the equivalent of admitting you lose.
SoMG,
This came up months ago, but I recall that you stated that your mom had 4 abortions; 3 pre-Roe and 1 post-Roe. Do you think having lost 4 siblings may have contributed to this sociopathy that keeps being referred to? I will respect your wishes if you choose not to elaborate on that.
Plus, what is the significance of the Spirit of Martin Gardner?
Wrong. In my view, the unborn’s personhood IS considered the same as the personhood of the born human being. Born human beings are not allowed to enter and occupy the body of another person without the other person’s continuing consent.
If another person, by their own action, plugged someone into their body, and because of their actions, the person would have to remain plugged in for 9 months, in order to stay alive, I believe that they should be required to keep them plugged in the entire nine months, as it was their own ACTION which caused this person to be dependent on them. This cannot happen in real life, but a hypothetical like this is the ONLY way to get a correct analogy of this situation. Yours is not a perfect analogy, not in the least.
And by the way, Marykay did refute your argument, by bringing up Siamese twins.
Carder, I must have missed that SOMG’s siblings were aborted. How sad, and interesting, to realize this must be part of the reason why he has chosen to live his life in the manner he has. What a sorry thing his mother did to him by taking away his siblings.
Oh and let me add to that hypothetical, the person who plugged the person into their body knew full well beforehand that there was a risk this would happen, that the person would become dependent on them for 9 months. So plugging them in, and then unplugging them, knowing that they were dependent on them to live, would be murder.
Bethany,
It was one of those if-you-blink-you-missed-it kind of moments on the blog. I don’t recall any discussion about it later, but he was elaborating on how his mother is prochoice.
Insightful, I thought.
And left me all the more curious.
But we’re talking about mom here, so I’ll understand if he doesn’t want to “go there”.
Bethany, first of all siamese twins are irrelevent to the abortion question. Certainly bringing them up does not refute the argument that the pregnant woman owns her body and is entitled to kill and evict anyone who is located within it.
You wrote: “If another person, by their own action, plugged someone into their body, and because of their actions, the person would have to remain plugged in for 9 months, in order to stay alive, I believe that they should be required to keep them plugged in the entire nine months, as it was their own ACTION which caused this person to be dependent on them. ”
That’s because there was a person to begin with, who lost something (independence) by being plugged into the other person. That places an obligation on the other person to restore what was lost (independent life).
In the case of pregnancy, THERE WAS NO PERSON until the conception (plugging in) occurred, hence nothing was taken away, hence there is no corresponding obligation.
This raises the question: who is worse off, an unborn person who gets aborted, or someone who doesn’t even get conceived at all? At least the aborted unborn gets to enjoy a few weeks of intrauterine life; the unconceived person doesn’t even get that. Should we be campaigning against chastity, which prevents people from being conceived?
For an article length refutation of the bodily autonomy rights using the conjoined twins analogy, see “The Natural-Artificial Distinction and Conjoined Twins: A Response to Judith Thomson’s Argument for Abortion Rights” by Brian Parks in ‘The National Catholic Bioethics Quarterly’ Vol. 6, Number 4, Winter 2006. Amazing article.
Bobby B, link, please.
Carter, I have no problem with my mother’s abortion history, and I am not a sociopath, that’s just a word some people here like to throw around.
Martin Gardner was a debunker of false science, including Intelligent Design (which was known as Creationism when he wrote about it.) In his spirit I debunk Jill’s bullshit (such as the alleged link between abortion and subsequent breast cancer, and the myth that relationships end after abortion.)
SOMG, do you wish you had been aborted, along with your siblings?
I remember one time I think you had said that you would rather be aborted than to not be in existence at all. Now it is starting to make more sense to me, why you say this.
Bethany, first of all siamese twins are irrelevent to the abortion question. Certainly bringing them up does not refute the argument that the pregnant woman owns her body and is entitled to kill and evict anyone who is located within it.
Are the twins who are connected in body not persons? Are they not owners of their own body?
Do they not have unique interests, unique feelings, and unique minds, in most cases?
Why should a siamese twin be denied the same privilege that a woman has, when she desires to have her own body, to herself?
That’s because there was a person to begin with, who lost something (independence) by being plugged into the other person. That places an obligation on the other person to restore what was lost (independent life).
doesn’t matter. There is still a person there, and it was directly a result of the actions of the person who put that person there.
It isn’t about “resoring independence”. It’s about allowing the person the basic right to live. Period.
Carder, sorry I misspelled your name (“Carter”)
Very well.
Were her abortions a result of being pressured to abort? Did she go through alot of hassle to find a clandestine abortionist? Was she too young to have been able to make her own decisions? Married? When did you arrive? Before, in between, or after terminations?
Is she proud of all of them or felt that some were unwarranted.
I’m not saying you’re a sociopath BTW. Just repeating the language here.
Was it in the 40’s, 50’s, or 60’s?
A more mature approach would be to acknowlege that my position withstands all your arguments, and that right-to-lifism is wrong.
You’re not really lecturing US on maturity are you?
The siamese twin refutation has EVERYTHING to do with your statement. Each twin requires another persons body to live. By your rules they each have the right to “evict” the other.
And your mother remained married after the abortions? She’s still with the man that fathered your brothers and sisters????
“Bobby B, link, please.”
I wish I could. I don’t think it’s on the internet. I requested the article through school. Tell you what. I can scan it in and then someone (Bethany maybe) could help me put the pdf on the internet. The article is at school, and I won’t be in again till Thursday, but I will do it then.
Somg seems intent upon derailing this thread.
Bethany, the pregnant woman has the same right to kill and evict siamese twins from her body has she has to kill and evict anyone else who is located there. Because it’s HER body.
Giving a person a few weeks of interuterine life does not obligate her to give it more life.
And I’d rather be conceived and aborted than never conceived at all.
Bobby, I may be wrong but I think you can purchase it at this link:
http://ncbcenter.metapress.com/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,5,10;journal,6,29;linkingpublicationresults,1:119988,1
And yes, if you send me the PDF, I can upload it for you, Bobby.
I take full responsibility for being the one that claims SoMG is a sociopath. I do not make that accusation lightly. I don’t believe I have ever said anything even remotely like this to anyone else on this blog ever. But I believe what I say. I’m really not trying to insult him. I honestly believe that he has no conscience, and I have never heard him utter a word of empathy or sympathy to ANYONE on this blog.
I have heard him, often, speak coldly and unfeelingly about the unborn, Terri Schiavo and anyone else that he “deems” unworthy. Including his own siblings.
I stand by my statement.
Somg seems intent upon derailing this thread.
Maybe we should all reply to his posts in the other topic (the one below this one), that way we could keep this one on topic. What do you think?
Carder: “Were her abortions a result of being pressured to abort? ”
No.
“Did she go through alot of hassle to find a clandestine abortionist? ”
Some hassle, not “a lot”.
“Was she too young to have been able to make her own decisions? ”
No.
“Married? ”
Yes.
“When did you arrive? Before, in between, or after terminations?”
Between.
“Is she proud of all of them or felt that some were unwarranted.”
She’s neither proud nor ashamed. Just part of life.
Bethany, the pregnant woman has the same right to kill and evict siamese twins from her body has she has to kill and evict anyone else who is located there. Because it’s HER body.
Then why doesn’t a siamese twin have the same right to kill and evict the other twin from her body, since it is HER body?
“If you’re a person and you’re located inside another person’s body, then the other person has the right to kill and evict you when she wants, because it’s HER body.”
This position merely shows, sadly, how much our law and culture is based upon a male model of the body, and a male notion of bodily integrity. It doesn’t account for a perfect normal, natural, non-pathological condition of more than 1/2 the popultion.
S.
Bethany: I agree. Could you please delete my comment from 9:16 since I wasn’t following my own advice? Thanks.:)
Aha, I see, MK, you’re talking about ALREADY-BORN siamese twins.
I would say if one of the twins wants to be separated, and the other does not, then the one who wants to be separated should have his way.
SOMG, I have replied to your comments here:
https://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/04/proliferations_18.html#comments
No problem , Carrie. Copy and paste it so you can transfer it too.
Bethany:
When Jesus Christ, our Savior, was on the cross, he was spit at, mocked, given vinegar to drink and left to die.
He cried out to his Father and said, “Forgive them for they know not what they do”.
Do not let the actions of some make you bitter. For that is the goal of the evil one. Just forgive and pray for them.
If the MSM got a hold of this story and the responses of SoMG, I think it would make headlines around the world for this is the ultimate expression of hate. I also suggest that you contact an attorney since it would appear to me that a line has been crossed. I will see what I can do to get these e-mail photos to John McCain. It’s about time we renew the national debate over abortion and its supporters.
The person or persons that sent you these grotesque e-mails and SoMG’s repsonses would then feel what true righteous anger is.
I suggest you forward this story to Sean Hannity and Bill O’Reilly because very simply, another murder has been attempted, the murder of your soul. But, you are an overcomer and will be made stronger by this assault.
SoMG:
Keep posting.
Losing a wanted pregnancy is painful no matter how ‘far along’ you are. I think its worse when you are farther into gestation. I miscarried my first planned pregnancy at about that same point in gestation. My cousin lost twins at six months. I dont believe the two can be compared. But it still hurts for a wanted pregnancy to miscarry.
TexasRed, I am sorry for your loss.
Hisman, thanks for the kind words.
Bethany, Jill, MK, Vakerie, Jacqueline, Jasper, Bobby, John L, John M, JLM, Janet and all those who love all life:
A ethical if not legal line has been crossed here. This is hate speech pure and simple and needs to be tried in the court of public opinion.
I suggest you send these e-mails to the real Ms. Walters to show what someone using her name is doing.
I think she’d would proably seek legal action against this person. If she didn’t then that would then become an issue.
You need to go major public with what has happened to you.
The world needs to see this and the inherent cruelty of most, not all, of the pro-abort side.
Bethany: I still can’t believe that someone would attempt to do that to Blessing. I just shake my head sometimes. You have alot of people here who will continue to defend you and Blessing against this kind of vicious assault!
TexasRed:
I am sorry for your loss. I can’t imagine what that must feel like.
Wow, people are REALLY sick. Bethany, I am so so sorry, you are the sweetest person, and I imagine this must anger some people. You have a big heart and are a great, wonderful, strong mother! All your kids are lucky to have you, including your little Blessing. :hugs: Don’t let them get to you Bethany, it angers people when you stand up for what you believe in, and they will stoop to UNSPEAKABLE levels to silence you. Don’t let them.
I don’t know, Hisman, Ms. Walters supports “choice” of killing babies this age, I believe, and probably wouldn’t think anything of the pictures… and Barbra is spelled wrong, not to mention the email it was sent from was an anonymous yahoo email: (barbra_walters_1967@yahoo.com)
I don’t know who would send something like that, but at the same time, I do feel that whoever it is is lashing out because my pictures expose the reality of what is in the womb, and she cannot handle it, because if she accepted my pictures, she would have to accept what she did when she had an abortion. (My assumption that she had an abortion is only an assumption, but I honestly can’t see anyone who hasn’t had one, lashing out in this manner).
I hope that having shown these pictures publicly has at least helped some others see the reality of what lengths some people will go to, to intimidate and harass those who actually care about their unborn children. If they truly supported choice, then they would not demean my photos and they would not demean my miscarriage experience.
I acknowledge that there are some pro-abortion proponents who do not do these things. But many, many do act this way towards those who do not share their opinions. The most ironic part of this is, that they call pro-lifers misogynists, when it is in truth the pro-abortion supporters who end up doing the most to hurt women and allow women to be hurt.
Anyway, that’s why I gave Jill permission to post these pictures. So that others can see what extent these people go to to prove their point that unborn children are worthless.
Believe me, a subpoena is a powerful tool.
This thing can be found.
It’s time for battle.
Thank you Elizabeth and Carrie. (hugs!! )
We love you, Bethany! I promise I’ll send you pictures of my murals as soon as I can…although compared to yours, they’re like doodles. I also had to make the ping pong table less detailed and more simplistic so that people could help me paint it…but my wall mural was as detailed as I could make it. :)
The mascot of the co-ed professional fraternity I’m pledging is the wyvern, or a humble dragon incapable of breathing fire, and it has two legs. It’s a symble of humility and service. :)
I’m sorry this happened to you Bethany. This is pure evil. Have you tried right-clicking on name “Barbra Walters”? and selecting properties? Sometimes it gives that actual email address. It’s more than likely, I believe, that it is someone who has posted here before.
MK:”We do keep trying to say that once you let something as hideous as abortion into your heart it’s only a matter of time before everything else is colored by this type of thinking.”
very True MK.
TexasRed:
I am sorry for your loss. I can’t imagine what that must feel like.
Posted by: HisMan at April 15, 2008 9:50 AM
************************
At the time I accepted that something must have been wrong with the pregnancy or it wouldnt have ended naturally the way it did. I still feel that way. And I went on to have two perfect sons whom I probably wouldnt have had if the first pregnancy had continued.
I should probably point out that the wyvern comment is in reference to what I drew and painted…..wyverns are in two of the three paintings I’m talking about. :)
Bathany:
Please contact Alan Sears at the Allied Defense Fund. He’s here in Phoenix.
Here’s a link:
http://www.alliancedefensefund.org/whatwedo/litigation/default.aspx?cid=3145
Let me know if he responds to you.
oh, you already answered it.(barbra_walters_1967@yahoo.com)
they probably created the account for the sole purpose of pulling this stunt.
TexasRed:
I am sorry but I don’t understand your post.
Since I really want to understnad could you please expound a little more?
I am so glad that you had two perfect sons. I bet they bring a lot of joy (and chaos) to your life. I know I had 4 boys.
Lyssie, that mural sounds awesome. Can’t wait to see it.
Jasper, I did right click on the properties. The email address is Barbra_walters_1967@yahoo.com.
Thanks Hisman. :)
I have to agree with HisMan on this one, Bethany…this is a direct personal attack on you, and if there’s any legal action you can take, I’d jump on it. I know I would if someone were to take pictures of my beloved grandmother (who passed) and make horrifying, terrible pictures “glorifying” my loss of her. I’m sure it’s no different than with Blessing. Forgiving’s fine…but so is litigation!
Pro-lifers:
Do not make the mistake of sending any e-mails to this person.
Whoever did this can be tracked down.
Bethany,
…a little late but I also offer sympathies for the loss of the little one…I share your pain.
This BarbaraWalters is sick.
I don’t know if legal action is the answer. As Bethany knows, no one is ever going to “get away” with anything. Whomever did this will someday have to answer to Our Lord for this. That thought is terrifying enough.
Bobby: You may be right. :(
Bethany,
This person is sick. Lord have mercy on B.W.
I believe God will use this incident to change many hearts about abortion. Blessings is still the most precious little baby, she lives on in Heaven! God bless you.
Lyssie, and Hisman, I’ve been thinking about it but can’t seem to wrap my mind around the idea how it could be a legal issue. I mean, it was indeed a personal attack, but so was that man who was calling that man n*gger over and over and being really disgusting and rude, a couple of threads before this one. And all of the slander that Planned Parenthood does towards CPC’s, and other things like that. I don’t know if he was actually violating any laws by doing so, as horrible as it was, and I just don’t know if what was done here was a legal violation of any kind, since my pictures were posted publicly.. I would guess that if the person who emailed me with these pictures had posted them publicly herself, it may have been a different story, but she sent them to me personally through a private email. Since I wasn’t threatened physically, I don’t know exactly what crime this would fall under, except the crime of just being really mean, and I don’t know that there’s any penalty for that. I could be totally wrong, but these are just my thoughts on the matter.
Another thought, this is why I sort of expected something to happen to the photos. When I first posted them a year ago, Amanda had told Jill:
“You have posted photographs of a deceased fetus, from a woman who had a miscarriage only 2 weeks ago. She is still in a state of extreme grief, and possibly shock. While she has every right to do what she wishes with these photos, you posting them is a different story. At this point, ANYONE could copy these photographs from your website and use them out of context, alter them, publish them, etc., compromising the privacy of this woman. Even though she gave you the blessing to do whatever you wanted with them, I think the responsible thing to do would have been to publish her story and her links, but refrain from posting the pictures. If someone were to use these images in some sick way (which has happened PLENTY of times by pro lifers AND pro choicers), you could be held responsible, as Bethany could quite easily, and justifiably, say that she was in a state of grief and had not thought out what could happen to those photographs should they be posted for a large audience on the internet.”
And I had responded to Amanda:
“I can assure you that although I am still in a state of grief over losing my child (who I named Blessing), I was fully aware that posting them on the internet does pose some risks. However, I am willing to take those risks for the pro-life cause.”
I appreciate so much your willingness to defend me and my baby. You are both so very sweet and thoughtful!!
TexasRed:
I am sorry but I don’t understand your post.
Since I really want to understnad could you please expound a little more?
I am so glad that you had two perfect sons. I bet they bring a lot of joy (and chaos) to your life. I know I had 4 boys.
Posted by: HisMan at April 15, 2008 10:15 AM
***********************
Whats not to understand? When I miscarried I wasnt very far along and at the time I accepted that there must have been something wrong with the pregnancy or I wouldnt have miscarried. Its always difficult to lose a wanted pregnancy, but I believe when you are further along and miscarry then its more difficult emotionally. A cousin of mine lost twins at six months gestation. I cant compare my miscarriage at about 8 or 9 weeks with her loss. How is this confusing for you?
TR,
I am sorry for your loss. I don’t think I knew that.
Loss is loss and grief is grief. None of us can claim we are immune to suffering in this life.
TR, I believe it was the child who was wanted, not really the pregnancy…just wanted to clarify on this point because I know I never wanted any of my pregnancies (except the first because I thought pregnancy would be cool!), but I always wanted my children! Pregnancy isn’t always fun. The morning sickness is the worst. And I always hated the way I looked when I was pregnant, even though I always thought other pregnant women were adorable! My point is, there’s a difference in not wanting a pregnancy, and not wanting a child. I’m sure you already know that though.
I am thankful to hear that you were able to have 2 boys after your miscarriage. Maybe one day I’ll be as blessed, to continue having children.
Bethany,
BW is obviously someone who has NO sense of compassion or human dignity.
I’m sorry he/she did this, and that you can see beyond the ignorance and just pity this person for their lack of feeling.
Hi Folks:
newer refute to SoMG …. in case you need someone who is adamant – like SoMG
please listen to this clip http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/229 it may take several re-listens, because there is SO MUCH! Jill had her stroke in Dec 1996, (11+ years earlier) and it still is so ‘fresh’ that it seems like yesterday. Being such a long time from the event-itself means that it is ‘pregnant’ with meaning.
For this discussion, it is important to note the different qualities assigned to each half of the brain. The right-half assumes that ‘we are one being’ …. brothers in the family of man where peace is the primary goal.
The left-half is quite a different place: it is noteworthy how many of the left-brain’s attributes SoMG relies on for his assessment of credibility. This is especially relevant because all language including definitions AND logic are left-brain activities. And the whole self-identification of ‘I am’ is also usually a left-brain activity.
It does seem that SoMG certainty stems from a large left-half brain-dominance. Not balancing with the expressions of his right-brain-hemisphere leads to the ‘sociopathy’ seen by mk.
TR,
I am sorry for your loss. I don’t think I knew that.
Loss is loss and grief is grief. None of us can claim we are immune to suffering in this life.
Posted by: Carla at April 15, 2008 10:34 AM
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I dont really view it as a loss. At the time I was sad that I miscarried but I believed then and I believe now that something must have been wrong with the pregnancy, with development, or I wouldnt have miscarried. My due date was early September of 75. My older sons due date was December of 76. I dont believe I would have gotten pregnant that quickly after having a baby, so I wouldnt have my older son. And since we only wanted two children I probably wouldnt have had my younger son either. So I believe everything worked out for the best.
Bethany:
I remember when you posted about your dear, dear child, Blessing, how you knew that there was a reason for the conception and miscarriage.
Events happen that change people’s opinions. William Wilberforce ended slavery in England when the horror of the slave ships was exposed. MLK’s assasination, as bad and horrfying as that was, accelerated the civil right’s movement, the diary of one little girl, Anne Frank exposed the terror of Hitler from a child’s persective, 9/11 woke people up to the real threat of terrorism.
It is my opinion that what was done to you and your baby is so outrageous and so revealing that is must be told to the world.
We are to be salt and light. Salt is an irritant but also a healer. Light defeats darkness.
I can’t tell you what to do, however, I believe this is one of the reasons Blessing was conceived and then taken by our Lord. Even the least of these can change the world. Remember how the infant Christ changed the course of history simply by being born. Satan was so threatened than he had all male children 2 years and younger murdered by King Herod. The same conductor is orchestrating this hatred towards you.
It’s time for courage Bethany, it’s time for action. If this had been done to one of your live children, the FBI would be on it. This is what should happen now.
I really urge you to pray earnestly about this and then follow what God is telling you to do. If it feels overwhelming and bigger than you, it’s from God. Remember, you and He are a majority and this one event can turn the tide on abortion.
I can’t guarantee what will happen, but something will. I do not believe our world or the church has becomes so callous as to not understand what is going on here.
Really, the whole abortion debate can be summed up in those photos and the vicious comments of one pro-abort that followed. That person has chosen, either intentioanally or unintentionally, to carry the mantle for the entire abortion industry and should now be held accountable for the words written.
TR, I believe it was the child who was wanted, not really the pregnancy…just wanted to clarify on this point because I know I never wanted any of my pregnancies (except the first because I thought pregnancy would be cool!), but I always wanted my children! Pregnancy isn’t always fun. The morning sickness is the worst. And I always hated the way I looked when I was pregnant, even though I always thought other pregnant women were adorable! My point is, there’s a difference in not wanting a pregnancy, and not wanting a child. I’m sure you already know that though.
I am thankful to hear that you were able to have 2 boys after your miscarriage. Maybe one day I’ll be as blessed, to continue having children.
Posted by: Bethany at April 15, 2008 10:36 AM
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I dont really differentiate between wanting the pregnancy and wanting a baby. But if you have rough pregnancies then I guess its something you just have to endure. I had very easy pregnancies, no complications, was healthy as a proverbial horse – things just fell apart when I went into labor with elder son and wound up needing an emergency c section then spent a week fighting an infection and a long time getting my strength back. But that didnt keep me from having younger son just under 20 months later.
TexasRed:
Thnaks for that. It’s hard for a man to sometimes understand a woman’s perspective. I just wanted to make sure I understood out of respect for you. Hence, just a little clarification was needed. That’s all.
HER body… what about the baby’s body? Who’s going to speak up for him or her? He or she cannot because they are in a location (supposedly safe in mama’s womb) where their voice cannot be heard- but believe me- when they are aborted their little mouths open wide and cry out in an unheard scream. This open-mouth cry has been recently seen on the new 3D/4D ultrasounds. Go to prolife.com to see this amazingly true heart wrenching video.
Bethany, this is so disgusting I don’t even have the words for it. If someone did this to the pictures of my son I think I would absolutely lose it.
Clearly, you are being attacked b/c the pics of Blessing are so effective in proving the truth of the unborn. You know you have been effective when the other side starts attacking you.
How sad it is that we live in a world where a perfect stranger will go to such lengths for the sole purpose of hurting someone they don’t even know.
Kudos to you for the way you’re handling this. I’m so sorry that this has happened.
My question is: if a child is not wanted why not have a hysterectomy or better yet not have sex in the first place? I’m so sorry Bethany that there are people in this country that have nothing but a cold heart, just pray that God changes them. I am a mother of 5(five) to repeat 5 children and one child that I gave up for adoption at the age of 15 and I can’t imagine not giving them LIFE. My prayers are that God blesses you with all the good HE has for you. Maggie
My question is: if a child is not wanted why not have a hysterectomy or better yet not have sex in the first place? I’m so sorry Bethany that there are people in this country that have nothing but a cold heart, just pray that God changes them. I am a mother of 5(five) to repeat 5 children and one child that I gave up for adoption at the age of 15 and I can’t imagine not giving them LIFE. My prayers are that God blesses you with all the good HE has for you. Maggie
Posted by: M. Petro at April 15, 2008 11:57 AM
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Dont have sex except to get pregnant is really one of the most idiotic arguments an antichoicer can come up with. “Why have sex if a child isnt wanted”? Youve got the be joking. And what kind of doctor would perform a hyst just to prevent pregnancy? Sheesh!
HER body… what about the baby’s body? Who’s going to speak up for him or her? He or she cannot because they are in a location (supposedly safe in mama’s womb) where their voice cannot be heard- but believe me- when they are aborted their little mouths open wide and cry out in an unheard scream. This open-mouth cry has been recently seen on the new 3D/4D ultrasounds. Go to prolife.com to see this amazingly true heart wrenching video.
Posted by: A Kramer at April 15, 2008 11:41 AM
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Kramer, you dont know what youre talking about. And youre proving just how poorly read and ignorant you are about this subject and fetal development.
Shush, TR.
TR, stop the insults or I’ll be forced to delete your posts.
TR, stop the insults or I’ll be forced to delete your posts.
Posted by: Bethany at April 15, 2008 12:27 PM
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Why do you want to pretend the truth is insulting, Bethany? what did I say that wasnt the truth? or are you going to try again to pretend that The Silent Scream is the truth, and it wasnt called into question as soon as it was first shown? and that a panel of experts gave detailed explanations WHY TSS wasnt honest or factual?
Stop acting like everyone is dumb simply because they do not agree with you. If you have some information you want to give others, give it without the insults. It’s possible. This is your warning.
Thank you to all who have said the kind words.
Stop acting like everyone is dumb simply because they do not agree with you. If you have some information you want to give others, give it without the insults. It’s possible. This is your warning.
Posted by: Bethany at April 15, 2008 12:33 PM
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Im not ‘acting’ any way. Are you going to try to pretend The Silent Scream wasnt called into question as soon as it was shown, and that a panel of experts in various medical fields listed why it was neither factual nor honest? Are you going to make that assertion? The paucity of your arguments arent my fault, Bethany, even if you want to try to pretend otherwise.
More evidence of pro-choice depravity.
TexasRed is right here–THE SILENT SCREAM is bull****, and was recognized as such immediately after its release.
*hugs Bethany* What a jerk.
It’s messed up, but the anonymity of the internet can somehow turn the most normal people into the biggest losers of all time. Also, it’s perfectly legal, HisMan. Whether it should be or not, I don’t know, but our legal code hasn’t evolved at the same pace that our technological capabilities have. General douche-baggery is epidemic on the interwebs. I know it doesn’t make you feel better, but I got TONS of hatemails after my abortion, too (Not from here, from the lovely college kids on facebook). Some people just get a kick out of preying on people. I can’t say that I get it.
Bethany,
My hugs and love to you. This person is obviously very distorted. I am thinking drugs may be involved at some level here too.
Hard to believe that people can be so cruel.
You are always so graceful in the way to handle situations. I know you will do what’s best for you.
Im not ‘acting’ any way. Are you going to try to pretend The Silent Scream wasnt called into question as soon as it was shown, and that a panel of experts in various medical fields listed why it was neither factual nor honest? Are you going to make that assertion? The paucity of your arguments arent my fault, Bethany, even if you want to try to pretend otherwise.
Where was I speaking of the Silent Scream, TexasRed? Can you show me the post where I was talking about the Silent Scream, because I certainly don’t see it.
Words like “idiotic” and “delusional” and “stupid” can be left out of your arguments, and everything would be just fine. I believe I was very clear in my post to you.
Erin,
Long time no posting! How are you?
I hope you are healed up and back to your busy life.
This maybe a stupid question that reflects my age, but…….how did people on facebook know to send you hateful e-mails??
Did people close to you gossip and tell people?
Was it an organized assault?
Bethany,
Just had a lightbulb moment. (sorta) Recently on the Today show they had this woman who was an attorney and gave up her practice to work with the internet abuses.
She was on speaking about the horrible incident where those cheerleaders were beating up on one of their friends.
I will see if I can find her name and send it to you. I just think that someone should be notified. It would be interesting to see what she would have to say???
How is harrassment legal?
Couldn’t you go to the cops and they can find out who exactly sent the emails?
Elizabeth- technically, they aren’t doing anything illegal. Wouldn’t you say that the WBC harrasses people on a daily basis? Yet, it’s still legal. Sick, but legal.
Sandy- actually, I was in a group discussing abortion and brought mine up- the next day, more than 50 messages in my inbox telling me that I was a stupid slut, murderous whore, blah de blah. Thing is, I don’t think that there was actually any form of political or religious fervor to them. It’s just people being hateful because they can. Some folks get a kick out of it.
TexasRed is right here–THE SILENT SCREAM is bull****, and was recognized as such immediately after its release.
Posted by: SoMG at April 15, 2008 1:03 PM
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Yup! And that was decades ago. But we still get people insisting the fetus ‘screams silently’ during an abortion and ‘there is a film to prove it’.
As a result of AOL discussions on religion and reproductive freedom I’ve received email that would curl your hair including condemnations to hades, threats of violence and even a few death threats over the years. I take it with a grain of salt. No one Ive butted heads with on line would really be stupid enough to try to find me in the real world.
Oh Erin, I know…but when I went to the police because my daughter’s loser dad was harrassing me via the internet…they were going to investigate to make sure it WAS him (even though I already knew it was) and they said I could charge him with disorderly conduct. But he did things more intrusive I guess you could say than what happened to Bethany. He hacked into my facebook account and changed my password..then sent obscene emails to my friends. So it’s a little different.
Well, you can’t say I didn’t warn, you Texas Red.
About being *insulting* and of course YOU define what that *means*?
Did you happen to notice that Bethany is a moderator? So YEAH, she does get to decide what that means. I mean besides your blatant rudeness to umm EVERYONE, I would say you’re pretty insulting. What you get out of being that way I’m not really sure, but hey, whatever floats your boat.
Did you happen to notice that Bethany is a moderator? So YEAH, she does get to decide what that means. I mean besides your blatant rudeness to umm EVERYONE, I would say you’re pretty insulting. What you get out of being that way I’m not really sure, but hey, whatever floats your boat.
Posted by: Elizabeth at April 15, 2008 2:14 PM
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There is nothing more insulting than insisting total strangers have some obligation to continue a pregnancy just to keep YOU happy, and that is the bottom line for the antichoice side.
I am so sorry this had to happen to you Bethany. Like Erin, when I first started joining pro-choice groups on facebook I would constantly get sent nasty messages. Anyone who harasses someone via internet is just pathetic. A complete loser who has nothing better to do in life then try to bring people down to their low, low level.
Always remember, you were the best mother Blessing could have asked for and you should be proud that the both of you are able to help so many people dealing with miscarriages.
Where was I speaking of the Silent Scream, TexasRed? Can you show me the post where I was talking about the Silent Scream, because I certainly don’t see it. (My comment to Kramer was what got your nose out of joint – that and saying ‘sex is only for making babies’ was an idiotic argument – their comment about the ‘fetus screaming silently’ and ‘the film’ that proves it was an obvious reference)
Words like “idiotic” and “delusional” and “stupid” can be left out of your arguments, and everything would be just fine. I believe I was very clear in my post to you.
Posted by: Bethany at April 15, 2008 1:15 PM
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Im not responsible for antichoicers coming up with idiotic arguments, making stupid comments or coming up with delusional fantasies, Bethany. And whining ‘Ill just show her – Ill delete her posts!’ wont make anything Ive said less true and it wont make the truth go away.
The bottom line for the anti-abortion side is to keep babies from being killed. It has nothing to do with our happiness, but the happiness of those children who have no voice. That’s pretty much it.
Thanks, Jess, and Elizabeth, and everyone else. You are all just so sweet, honestly.
Ugh TexasRed like some huge loser in my school was quoted in the school newspaper saying people who smoked took away “her right to choose” not to smoke because she has to walk by them while they’re smoking. I mean get over it. Sure smoking isn’t the healthiest thing you can do by far but this girl was FAR from a health nut. I mean get over it it’s about 3 seconds on smelling smoke.
People should calm down about things that really don’t effect them.
I mean like contraception. Who cares if I’m on the pill? I know the risks. I would rather take my chances with those risks then let my period take over my life. And don’t tell me I could stop cramps by eating right and exercising. I probably eat the best out of anyone here and I probably get the most exercise. Seriously I’m not as stupid as some of you think.
People should calm down about things that really don’t effect them.
Oh, you mean like starving children, homeless people, animal abuse/neglect, child molestation, etc.
Those things don’t effect me personally, so I guess I’ll stop having a problem with them. Go ahead and keep raping children, child molestors, because it doesn’t effect me so I’m not gonna get all up in arms about it.
Wow.
Bethany,
I am sorry that some complete idiot did this to you! It is so unbelievably juvenile. I think maybe your little baby has really made someone uncomfortable with their “choice”.God bless you!!
And SoMG you are soooo off base on this one- everyone should have ignored your attempt to derail this post.
I wonder why you couldn’t focus on this one……..
Jess, I don’t find you to be stupid at all.
But I do think the idea to only be concerned with things that effect us directly is.
Elizabeth 2:41 so true!
The bottom line for the anti-abortion side is to keep babies from being killed. It has nothing to do with our happiness, but the happiness of those children who have no voice. That’s pretty much it.
Posted by: Bethany at April 15, 2008 2:31 PM
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No, its not. No babies are killed in an abortion. There are no ‘children’ involved. Insisting ‘yes it is because thats how I think of it’ doesnt change the fact that I dont agree and I never will. Youre talking about mindless insensate oblivious nonviable tissue and cell structure. Thats fact, not opinion. Trying to pretend ‘its a baby’ is just melodramatic hysteria. You think strangers should have some obligation to continue an unwanted pregnancy just to make you happy. Its no more complicated than that. The embryo/fetus is oblivious. It doesnt have an opinion. It doesnt know anything. Your antichoice position is all about YOU, Bethany – not about any embryo or fetus. Your position is all about you, and your feelings, and your insistance that total strangers have some responsibility to keep you happy.
I am sorry that some complete idiot did this to you! It is so unbelievably juvenile. I think maybe your little baby has really made someone uncomfortable with their “choice”.God bless you!!
That is my hearts desire, Patricia. I would love to think that possibly this person was convicted and maybe even would have a change of heart one day about abortion.
Right now, obviously, this person is in a stage of denial.
Hi Erin,
I was wondering where you were! I am so sorry that you received so many hateful emails on Facebook. Sick!!! Um…I might have to steal your phrase Douche-baggery. Hope that’s ok. :)
Hi Bethany,
You are always so humble and forthright and I appreciate how you rise above what anyone can say.
Blessing is beautiful to so many!!
No, its not. No babies are killed in an abortion. There are no ‘children’ involved. Insisting ‘yes it is because thats how I think of it’ doesnt change the fact that I dont agree and I never will. Youre talking about mindless insensate oblivious nonviable tissue and cell structure. Thats fact, not opinion. Trying to pretend ‘its a baby’ is just melodramatic hysteria. You think strangers should have some obligation to continue an unwanted pregnancy just to make you happy. Its no more complicated than that. The embryo/fetus is oblivious. It doesnt have an opinion. It doesnt know anything. Your antichoice position is all about YOU, Bethany – not about any embryo or fetus. Your position is all about you, and your feelings, and your insistance that total strangers have some responsibility to keep you happy.
Keep telling yourself that, TexasRed.
Hi Bethany,
You are always so humble and forthright and I appreciate how you rise above what anyone can say.
Blessing is beautiful to so many!!
(((((hugs)))))) Carla!
No Elizabeth I mean… Like my friend dates around. If I were her I would pick the nicest guy and start a relationship. But it’s not me and it doesn’t effect me so why should I tell her to settle down? Same with my sister, wonderful boyfriend I think she doesn’t care too much for the relationship. She says she doesn’t need anything serious now so that is fine.
I’m sure many homeless people, abused children, negelected animals would love your time and energy helping them. So go for it.
But does that mean I want your opinion on my birth control? I haven’t even had sex a month and don’t care to for another, so it’s just me, just me and my pills, no babies or anything.
No, its not. No babies are killed in an abortion. There are no ‘children’ involved. Insisting ‘yes it is because thats how I think of it’ doesnt change the fact that I dont agree and I never will. Youre talking about mindless insensate oblivious nonviable tissue and cell structure. Thats fact, not opinion. Trying to pretend ‘its a baby’ is just melodramatic hysteria. You think strangers should have some obligation to continue an unwanted pregnancy just to make you happy. Its no more complicated than that. The embryo/fetus is oblivious. It doesnt have an opinion. It doesnt know anything. Your antichoice position is all about YOU, Bethany – not about any embryo or fetus. Your position is all about you, and your feelings, and your insistance that total strangers have some responsibility to keep you happy.
Keep telling yourself that, TexasRed.
Posted by: Bethany at April 15, 2008 2:52 PM
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Its called reality.
Ugh TexasRed like some huge loser in my school was quoted in the school newspaper saying people who smoked took away “her right to choose” not to smoke because she has to walk by them while they’re smoking. I mean get over it. Sure smoking isn’t the healthiest thing you can do by far but this girl was FAR from a health nut. I mean get over it it’s about 3 seconds on smelling smoke.
People should calm down about things that really don’t effect them.
Posted by: Jess at April 15, 2008 2:34 PM
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I can see the argument indoors, but not out doors.
People should calm down about things that really don’t effect them.
Oh, you mean like starving children, homeless people, animal abuse/neglect, child molestation, etc.
Those things don’t effect me personally, so I guess I’ll stop having a problem with them. Go ahead and keep raping children, child molestors, because it doesn’t effect me so I’m not gonna get all up in arms about it.
Wow.
Posted by: Elizabeth at April 15, 2008 2:41 PM
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People who are hungry, homeless people, child molestation, animal abuse / neglect DO effect me because it all has an impact on society. If I were to end a pregnancy how would you even know, let alone be impacted by it? How would society be impacted by my choice to not continue a pregnancy?
You would be ending a child’s life like all of the other 4,000 women a day. That affects us all.
Please do not call me stupid, ignorant, hysterical, an idiot. It’s gettin old, TR. Really.
OHHHH I get it…so because we have opinions you guys don’t agree with, then we should shut up?! Come on now..that is just discrimination. Maybe some people like abusing animals or molesting children. What business is it of your’s? Oh because YOU care now, that makes it okay to have an opinion? That is ridiculous.
I frankly don’t care if people use birth control..if they really want to put artificial hormones in their system, GO AHEAD! They’re the ones who are going to have to deal with those side effects years down the road, not me. But I view abortion as an injustice, just as you view animal abuse an injustice, Jess. Just because you don’t see it that way doesn’t mean I should “calm down about stuff that doesn’t effect me.”
You would be ending a child’s life like all of the other 4,000 women a day. That affects us all.
Please do not call me stupid, ignorant, hysterical, an idiot. It’s gettin old, TR. Really.
Posted by: Carla at April 15, 2008 3:25 PM
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No child involved. And you arent affected at all if some stranger ends her pregnancy. You wont even know it happened unless someone tells you. What is ‘getting old’ is the fantasy that you should be making decisions for total strangers and what they think feel believe need and want somehow just isnt at all important. Its somehow all about you. And i dont believe Ive called you stupid etc at all today. Yet.
I frankly don’t care if people use birth control..if they really want to put artificial hormones in their system, GO AHEAD! They’re the ones who are going to have to deal with those side effects years down the road, not me. But I view abortion as an injustice, just as you view animal abuse an injustice, Jess. Just because you don’t see it that way doesn’t mean I should “calm down about stuff that doesn’t effect me.”
Posted by: Elizabeth at April 15, 2008 3:29 PM
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Robbing women of their right to bodily autonomy and self determination is an injustice but you dont have any problem at all with that.
How about this then? Everyone knows someone who has had an abortion or been involved with one. Man or woman, teenager, mother, sister, friend, roommate. That affects us. I often wonder what my old roommate thinks. She drove all of her friends for their abortions, including me!!
Someone else’s abortion affects me personally when they call me in tears and want my help.
Robbing women of their right to bodily autonomy and self determination is an injustice but you dont have any problem at all with that.
I’m not robbing women of anything. They rob themselves of it through their own choices. But hey, if they want to be slaves to their hormones, go ahead. I’ll continue to help them give life to their babies.
TR:”No babies are killed in an abortion. There are no ‘children’ involved.”
..thats has to be the QoTD.
TR, when your baby kicked for the first inside of you, what did you say? “oh, the fetus just kicked” or “oh, the baby just kicked” ?
,i>TR, when your baby kicked for the first inside of you, what did you say? “oh, the fetus just kicked” or “oh, the baby just kicked” ?
maybe she said “The Non-viable insensate mindless tissue kicked!”
I’m not robbing women of anything. They rob themselves of it through their own choices. But hey, if they want to be slaves to their hormones, go ahead. I’ll continue to help them give life to their babies.
Posted by: Elizabeth at April 15, 2008 3:46 PM
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Slaves to their hormones?
TR’s actually been quiet for an hour? Maybe she’s loading up on caffeine for the next 6 hour rant. Lol.
Laura,
I would answer you if I actually thought you wanted to have a conversation and not just twist words so you can insult me.
But you don’t.
No, Hun, you’re babbling-
“Slaves to their hormones?”
“Help them give life to their babies?”
What does any of that meeeeeeeeeean?
Go clean up some dog sh*t Laura.
Go clean up some dog sh*t Laura.
Posted by: Elizabeth at April 15, 2008 4:51 PM
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Hey! My boss’s niece got chosen for that “Step It Up and Dance” thing, but she had to decline when she was picked up by that Cirque de Soleil “Beatles” show in Vegas.
Go change a crappy diaper, loser.
Awww that’s cute…Step It Up and Dance..as though THAT’S real dancing haha..my brother was just offered a contract with the Milwaukee Ballet.
Awww that’s cute…Step It Up and Dance..as though THAT’S real dancing haha..my brother was just offered a contract with the Milwaukee Ballet.
Posted by: Elizabeth at April 15, 2008 4:58 PM
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Isn’t it GREAT that me, Kimmi and your brother are all doing EXACLTY what we wanted to do with our lives?
It’s a good thing we weren’t slaves to our hormones!
There isn’t a full moon for five more days. What’s going on?
Prayers for those who have been hurt
Bethany,
My heart goes out to you over this unbelievable cruelty. I’m afraid however that when we acknowledge someone’s appalling stupidity and cruelty in any way, we dignify it I’m concerned that by acknowledging this person and his/her act, you are giving him/her the satisfaction of knowing how they have hurt you. He/she wanted to hurt you and can now be assured he/she did. This person is getting exactly the attention and response he/she desired.
How disappointing it would have been to this person if you had said absolutely nothing.
Its been my experience in my many years that nothing frustrates and disappoints people like being completely ignored, especially when they are making such an effort to hurt you through an unkind comment or action. As either Ann Landers or Dear Abby said, there are times when silence says more than any words.
Again Bethany, my deepest sympathy to you and your family.
Well, Laura’s timing’s always been a little off Janet. Apparently she doesn’t need a full moom to be a werewolf.
“Youre talking about mindless insensate oblivious nonviable tissue and cell structure. Thats fact, not opinion.”
TR: You have NO concept of what you’ve just written and have shown how completely ignorant you really are.
If it was mindless insensate nonviable tissue then why do scientists spend so much time working in the lab with even 3 and 4 day old embryo’s. Once conceived, the zygote begins to rapidly develop and differentiate. You KNOW it’s viable, living and developing constantly and rapidly.
Go take a biology course and learn about embryology and neonatology before you spew your misinformation on this board.
I’m so sick of you spouting off about things you know nothing about and wasting the time of people who want to have an intelligent discussion –oh that brings me back to insensate nonviable tissue….
I’m doing exactly what I want with my life.
Off to biology class!
Well, Laura’s timing’s always been a little off Janet. Apparently she doesn’t need a full moom to be a werewolf.
Posted by: Patricia at April 15, 2008 5:15 PM
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Please.
I asked her what she meant by those two “unusual” statements and she told me to go clean up dog s**t.
(I scooped the dogs’ yard at 6:30 this morning. I’m not doing it again…)
I am so sorry that someone would be so sick to do something like this to you, Bethany. I hope you don’t take these individuals as a representation of all pro-choicers. Taking advantage of someone’s tragedy is NOT what we are about.
I am deeply sorry. God bless.
you need to redo it Laura….
Elizabeth that was a bit uncalled for. And Laura that was uncalled for as well. Changing babies diapers is very important job, same as cleaning up after dogs. If no one did that, babies and dogs would become disgusting and sick. We can all agree that no one wants that.
same as cleaning up after dogs. If no one did that, babies and dogs would become disgusting and sick. We can all agree that no one wants that.
Posted by: Jess at April 15, 2008 5:45 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Cleaning up dog turds is evil. I usually have a neighbor girl I pay to keep my yard scooped, but she was sneaking back home through her bathroom window, stepped in the toilet, and broke her foot.
(The irony? I had the exact same accident 7 years ago breaking into my own house after locking myself out.)
Patricia: Well, Laura’s timing’s always been a little off Janet. Apparently she doesn’t need a full moom to be a werewolf.
It’s NOT Laura specifically, the whole day has been weird. It’s probably the nature of the story,more than the commenters themselves. The title is “Miscarriage of Cruelty”, after all.
Mary:I’m afraid however that when we acknowledge someone’s appalling stupidity and cruelty in any way, we dignify it I’m concerned that by acknowledging this person and his/her act, you are giving him/her the satisfaction of knowing how they have hurt you.
I agree, Mary. I’m all for ignoring the cruelty, but sometimes when it gets too personal, it’s human nature to want to confront it. Sometimes how to best handle it is a tough call.
TR:
Your posts are hard to understand.
Even, if we assume everything you say is correct about abortion, insensate cells, etc. you do lack basic manners and etiquette. The inability to show any compassion towards someone who has literally been assaulted is beyond understanding. I really hope your two boys aren’t witnessing your behavior because you are the type of parent that breeds Columbine type assassins.
Yet you express concern for the homeless, animals, etc. Your writing and your expressed sentiments are inconsistent. A mindset that is a breeding ground for family dysfunction.
My guess is you’ve never even seen the inside of a homeless shelter. Perhaps you’ve driven by one and felt a tinge of sympathy? No one who has true love for other people can say the type of things you say, “for it is out of the heart that the mouth speaks”.
I know people that are involved in homeless shelters and none of them are anything like you, not a single one.
I think TR is pretty easy to understand. She knows everything there is to know about everything. We are all idiots. Easy peasy.
No, Carla,
I think TR is just your typical left wing ultra liberal proabort who believes in the sacrament of abortion. Her “thinking” is irrational, insane and completely inconsistent.
Nothing difficult to understand at all, really.
TR also likes to ignore the reality of abortion.
She wants women to have a choice, but unfortunately women have been lied to by the abortion industry into thinking that all they carry is a blob of cells, that it’s an easy procedure, that you will be so relieved afterward, there are no long term risks, etc…
The PC world continues to fight to keep women ignorant by not wanting ultrasounds made available to women and they continue to use the blob of tissue nonsense.
They want abortion on demand with no parental consents, no gestational limits, and no informattion given to women about abortion.
It’s not about helping women. It’s about making money.
I hope that having shown these pictures publicly has at least helped some others see the reality of what lengths some people will go to, to intimidate and harass those who actually care about their unborn children. If they truly supported choice, then they would not demean my photos and they would not demean my miscarriage experience.
Bethany,
EXACTLY!!!!!
When I first posted them a year ago, Amanda had told Jill:
At this point, ANYONE could copy these photographs from your website and use them out of context, alter them, publish them, etc., compromising the privacy of this woman.
hmmmmmmmmm…where is our pro-abort friend Amanda, anyway?????
No, Carla,
I think TR is just your typical left wing ultra liberal proabort who believes in the sacrament of abortion. Her “thinking” is irrational, insane and completely inconsistent.
Nothing difficult to understand at all, really.
Posted by: Patricia at April 15, 2008 7:04 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yet the Supreme Court agrees with Red.
Why do you suppose that is?
(By the way, calling Red an “ultra left-wing liberal” will get you laughed at. Don’t mess with Texas.)
If they truly supported choice, then they would not demean my photos and they would not demean my miscarriage experience.
Hun, there are gonna be jerks on both sides. I have never said anything to the effect of demeaning your miscarriage. I really do support your choice to have children and it’s sad when miscarriages happen, because the couple was really hopeful about having a child and have been denied that opportunity (at that time, at least).
@JLM: Amanda (if it’s the same Amanda I’m thinking of) would never do something like this. Besides, I think she’s in Morocco for a few weeks and has been in Morocco.
That was kind of rude of you, especially if you’re referring to the Amanda that typically posts on here (not Amanda Marco-whatsit, who has posted here a grand total of like…2 times).
@Bethany: You already know my thoughts on these vile pieces of swamp water (actually, that was an insult to swamp water, swamp water is no where near as vile).
*hugs*
Janet, 5:53PM
Good point.
Rae, 8:17PM
I agree. Any nutcase could have done this for whatever sick satisfaction it gave. I agree Amanda would never do anything like this. One must be very careful about insinuating who may be responsible. You know what they say about the word (you make an)ass-(out of)u-(and)me
Rae 8:29PM
I second that.
Excues me, Roe v. Wade was made by a politicized Supreme Court whose real decision that they could legislate from the bench.
All we have to do is get two more pro-life judges, and we will, and the Roe v. Wade abomination will be reveresed, never to be enacted again. And history will judge 1973-2010 as the darkest period in American history.
And TexasRed in no way represents Texas.
I agree, Jess. It was uncalled for. But I’m tired of Laura pretending to engage me in discussion so she can insult me. SO, I beat her to it.
HisMan,
Please, an update on your nephew in law.
And I’d rather be conceived and aborted than never conceived at all.
Posted by: SoMG at April 15, 2008 9:13 AM
What!? This is possibly the most ridiculous statement ever made.
To have lived a short life is better than to not have lived at all, what’s not to get, Anonymous?
Hi Mary:
My nephew-in-law passed away a few days ago. He was only 40 years old and married to my niece for two years. He was a very strong man and a great guy. He was a law engorcement officer. He played football at Arizona State University and was dealing with some recent headaches and back pain. They think his death was caused by a bad reaction to the pain killer Oxycontin and something else.
His funeral is on Saturday.
Whe God calls, that’s it. We all need to be ready to go at any time. That’s why I try to stay close to my Lord.
HisMan,
I am SO sorry! That is so awful…I will continue to pray for you all!
I’m so sorry this happened to you. Sounds like the work of a turd who more than likely does not care about the issue and just want’s to be a ***hole (pardon my French).
Edyt or SoMG, does that mean to get pregnant is better than to not get pregnant?
HisMan, My condolences to you and your family.
HisMan: that’s one possibility.
If McCain is elected I’m more worried about fiscal meltdown than abortion rights.
He has said nothing about how he will deal with the national debt. He will make the Bush tax cuts permanent and continue pouring money we don’t have into the Iraq rat-hole handing out government money to George W Bush’s old coke-snorting buddies from Skull and Bones who own stock in private quasi-military contractors in Iraq. Additionally, he has said nothing about how he will handle the explosion of entitlement costs as the baby-boom retires.
That means we will continue running our government on money borrowed from foreigners. The national debt will continue to rise, at an increasing rate. Our currency will continue to be devalued at correspondingly increasing rates. That means inflation. Any account you have in dollars (like your IRA) will lose its value and become worthless.
Societies die when they go bankrupt. It can happen quickly.
We desperately need a President who will have the guts to raise taxes.
(Sigh) I miss Ross Perot.
HisMan,
I am so sorry for your loss. We will keep you and his family in our prayers. God bless you all.
BarbaraW, if you are reading this. Let me borrow a phrase from that red-headed bearded guy outside the abortion mill in Rockford…..
“You are a degenerate”!! You are a degenerate!
A worthless degenerate!! You are a degenerate!
To have lived a short life is better than to not have lived at all, what’s not to get, Anonymous?
Posted by: Edyt at April 15, 2008 10:45 PM:
Somg or Edyt,
does that mean to get pregnant is better than to not get pregnant?
That’s right SoMG, let’s take your solution to the extreme. Isn’t that how you solve a polynomial differential equation?
The government keeps everything we make.
That’s called communism.
Count me out.
“Truthseeker” : I would say it’s better FOR THE FETUS if you get pregnant. Isn’t a short existance better than no existance? Isn’t a short life better than no life?
To have lived a short life is better than to not have lived at all, what’s not to get, Anonymous?
Posted by: Edyt at April 15, 2008 10:45 PM:
SoMG or Edyt, does mean you think it would be kinder for women to stop using birth control and get abortions instead?
SoMG, does that mean you think it would be kinder for women to stop using birth control and get abortions instead?
And if it is a kind thing for her to get pregnant and abort instead of using birth control, then it is an even kinder thing to let the baby live to term?
SoMG, are any kights going on for you?
Should be lights
SoMG, kinder is better
HisMan, I know you hate the idea of increasing taxes, but we have a huge debt we have to pay back. We cannot afford to act like children anymore. And who ran up the huge debt? George W. Bush and the Republican Congress. (In case you’d forgotten.) The coming tax increases will be THEIR fault, not the fault of the fiscally more responsible legislators who pass them.
And I’ll tell you something else: there is no reason to think John McCain will seriously try to cut spending. Even his old “anti-pork” buddy Former Senator Phil Gramm campaigned for the Superconducting Supercollider (remember that? A federally-funded multi-billion dollar machine which would have measured something meaningful to maybe a few hundred specialists in the whole world) when he thought it would be located in his state.
“Truthseeker”, you wrote: “And if it is a kind thing for her to get pregnant and abort instead of using birth control, then it is an even kinder thing to let the baby live to term? ”
I agree that it’s kinder to grow the pregnancy and give birth than it is to abort. Giving birth is an ordeal to be undertaken out of kindness and love for your child, not because of a government mandate.
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven.
I agree that it’s kinder to grow the pregnancy and give birth than it is to abort. Giving birth is an ordeal to be undertaken out of kindness and love for your child, not because of a government mandate.
Posted by: SoMG at April 16, 2008 1:04 AM
SoMG, then why do you say you are proud to be a part of so many abortions?
With a “goo-goo-goo” and a “gah-gah-gah”.
Why don’t you work at helping support mother’s through their pregnancies instead? Don’t you feel as though you are acting unkind when you assist ine termination of a pregnancy?
Because I believe the patient is entitled to behave unkindly if she wishes.
Why don’t you work at helping support mother’s through their pregnancies instead? Don’t you feel as though you are acting unkind when you assist in the termination of a pregnancy?
Because I believe the patient is entitled to behave unkindly if she wishes.
Posted by: SoMG at April 16, 2008 1:13 AM
SoMG, So you are o.k. with being unkind yourself, as long as somebody else is o.k. with it too? Why do you let someone eles desires move YOU to unkindness?
And because medical (non-surgical) abortion alleviates the harmful effects of the black markets in abortion services which exist in places where abortion is illegal. A medical abortion–even a misoprostol-only abortion–is much safer than a surgical abortion performed by an unlicenced, untrained, criminalized abortionist, especially in third-worldy places. So I am proud to have participated (a little bit) in the emergance of medical abortion techniques into the medical mainstream.
“Truthseeker”, you wrote: “So you are o.k. with being unkind yourself, as long as somebody else is o.k. with it too? Why do you let someone eles desires move YOU to unkindness? ”
Because by being unkind to the fetus I am being very kind to the patient.
These pro-aborts are getting less and less pro-choice by the year. They are showing less and less respect for the choice not to abort. They are getting more and more hostile to women who love their babies and want to give them life. It’s best not to even tell people if you are pregnant anymore, because you don’t know what they’re reaction will be.
Cheer up, Ceecee! The development of genetic technology has made it possible to prove the identity of the father of your baby and sue him in court for child support. This is a powerful legal tool for pregnant women who choose not to abort and whose partners try to abandon them. And it’s all thanks to the biotech industry!
That’s the real message of the Lewinsky scandal–genetic technology made it possible to prove sexual activity in court. Twenty years earlier he’d have gotten away with it because his DNA couldn’t have been identified.
SoMG, These women knew these other persons would need six months of her nurturing once they were welcomed in. Bodily domain would not apply. It’s called having to be responsible for your actions. You call the fetus a person and still work towards assisting them in murder. Why do you let someone eles desires move YOU to facilitate the murder of other persons?
It’s not murder; it’s justifiable homicide.
Have you really convinced yourself that killing a person because another person wants you too is o.k. ?
If the target is located inside the patient’s body, then yes.
Why? You admit they are completely different equal persons. Just what is it about being in the woman’s body that makes you feel justified in killing someone?
I mean, if they really equal persons then five months is hardly too much to ask to save someones life is it? Especially when you are partly responsible for the life to begin with. Why should the mother not have to take some responsibility since she welcomed the baby in?
These pro-aborts are getting less and less pro-choice by the year. They are showing less and less respect for the choice not to abort. They are getting more and more hostile to women who love their babies and want to give them life. It’s best not to even tell people if you are pregnant anymore, because you don’t know what they’re reaction will be.
Posted by: Ceecee at April 16, 2008 1:38 AM
Cheer up, Ceecee! The development of genetic technology has made it possible to prove the identity of the father of your baby and sue him in court for child support.
Posted by: SoMG at April 16, 2008 1:55 AM
CeeCee isn’t talking about a father who leaves a pregnant woman, she’s talking about pro-choicers like you who are likely to ask if she’s aborting or not.
Because it’s HER body. That means (to me, anyway) that SHE gets to decide who else gets to live inside it, and for how long. She gets to decide when and for whom to use her life-support functions. They belong to her. The same way your arms and legs and lungs belong to you.
I mean, if they really equal persons then five months is hardly too much to ask to save someones life is it? Especially when you are partly responsible for the life to begin with. Why should the mother not have to take some responsibility since she welcomed the baby in?
Posted by: truthseeker at April 16, 2008 2:23 AM
That’s the million dollar question!
Janet, you wrote: “she’s talking about pro-choicers like you who are likely to ask if she’s aborting or not.”
And what is so un-pro-choice about asking that question?
It is Janet. And in many cases I bet the father would be willing to take financial responsibility too.
SoMG:
I didn’t say it was un-pro choice. I said the question was typical of you, a prochoicer because abortion is viable option for you.
A pro-lifer like CeeCee or me would be appalled to have someone ask if was aborting. It’s not an option.
“Truthseeker”, you wrote: “I mean, if they really equal persons then five months is hardly too much to ask to save someones life is it? ”
Not too much to ASK FOR but yes too much to take by force.
truthseeker:It is Janet. And in many cases I bet the father would be willing to take financial responsibility too.”
I agree. I just got the impression that CeeCee wasn’t specifically talking about the baby’s father with her comment.
Somg,I don’t want to take the baby or anything else by force.
Janet,
I was just speaking from my own point of view cause I know I would have absolutely no problem assuming full financial responsibility if it would help save one of my children from abortion.
Janet, you wrote: “A pro-lifer like CeeCee or me would be appalled to have someone ask if was aborting. It’s not an option.”
And yet right-to-lifers who feel just like you do have abortions, all the time. Before their own unwanted pregnancies they all felt just as sure as you feel that abortion would never be an option for them. Some of them show up again at right-to-life protests soon after their abortions.
SoMG, What did you mean by asking to much to take by force? I don’t want to take anything by force?? Your argument isn’t making sense…
truthseeker:
Gotcha. I thought you were female, am I wrong? Sorry!
Forgive me if I interrupted your discussion. It’s late…good nite!
“Truthseeker”, you wrote: “Somg,I don’t want to take the baby or anything else by force.”
That’s a lie. You want to force pregnant women to endure full-term pregnancy, labor and delivery against their wills. That’s taking something from them by force.
It was good to here from you Janet. Sleep with the peace of Jesus Christ.
Regarding the woman’s “responsibility” to the other life inside her body: I once knew a woman who had the following engraved on her diaphragm (in small letters): “If you form in my uterus, oh not-yet-conceived preborn-to-be, I offer you a few weeks of intrauterine life there, until I discover I’m pregnant and get to the abortion doc. That’s what I offer you; take it or leave it. Preferably leave it.”
SoMG,
I did not lie. I am not forcing her to do anything. What I am doing is forcing her NOT to do something. NOT to kill other people. Carrying a baby to viability is a LOT less violent then killing somebody.
And writing that on your diaphram would only prove that you goofy
Accusing people of lying when they are not is usually a sign that you have no rational response to their point. turnaround is fair play
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth. Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.
Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God. Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven.
You wrote: “What I am doing is forcing her NOT to do something.”
It comes to the same thing. You are taking control of her life-support functions away from her and forcing her to sustain life inside her body against her will.
You wrote: “Carrying a baby to viability is a LOT less violent then killing somebody. ”
Similarly, taking transfusable blood by force from an unwilling donor is less violent than watching a patient die for lack of it (since death is a greater violence than inconvenience) but we still don’t do it. Why not? Because it’s HIS (the donor’s) blood. Sometimes the least violent, most life-sustaining action is not the ethical one.
SoMG,
Comparing a mother sharing her blood and an adult being tied down to some other adult during a transfusion is completely invalid. The only thing a pregnancy and a blood transfusion have in common is that both circulate blood between two persons. It is a natural bodily function for a woman to share her blood with her baby and it does not limit the woman like a typical blood transfusion. Can you please keep you anaolgies realistic?
Why do you keep saying I am forcing her to do anything? I am just telling her the same thing I tell anyone else. She is the one who chose to engage in intercourse and create that life. I am just applying the law equally to the baby. You are the one who said they are equal persons.
Or Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name. Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
SoMG,
Aha, I see, MK, you’re talking about ALREADY-BORN siamese twins.
*
I would say if one of the twins wants to be separated, and the other does not, then the one who wants to be separated should have his way.
You’re still missing the point…if the twins decide that they want to be separated, and death will result for one of them, which twin gets to live? Which twin gets to decide?
Twin A no longer wants to share a body with Twin B. Twin B is cramping her style and needs Twin A’s body to live. She is using Twin A’s body to stay alive. Does Twin A have the right to kill twin B, to evict her, so that Twin A can gain bodily autonomy?????
Yet the Supreme Court agrees with Red.
Why do you suppose that is?
(By the way, calling Red an “ultra left-wing liberal” will get you laughed at. Don’t mess with Texas.)
Only some of them do, and that could change…
My goodness!! I read through several of these comments and I’m astonished at the ‘argument’ FOR abortion. First, even with a tattoo on her abdomen, an unborn child cannot read. Secondly, one needs to realize that intercourse has a result of pregnancy, so YES, the woman DOES CHOOSE to become pregnant. (Just like if you drink and eat you will need to urinate and defecate – what goes in, does come out – and at the time it wants to). The argument that the unborn baby is an unwelcome parasite is just the most dishonest statement ever. It simply boils down to the most SELFISH life wanting to convenience itself by killing another life – pretty obvious to anyone who is the slightest bit willing to accept reason and logic. This DOES refute the previous statements, the other writer is just not accepting it as such.
“It simply boils down to the most SELFISH life wanting to convenience itself by killing another life – pretty obvious to anyone who is the slightest bit willing to accept reason and logic”
And Rebecca, the things is, SoMG has no problem with that conclusion.
Hey Bobby – if you have time, please read:
Bodily Rights or Lileigh’s Location (part 1)
I’d like to know from you if that addresses some of the arguments made here on this blog and to which I’ve been accused of ignoring.
You can leave comments there, rather posting them on a topic thread that has nothing to do with my argument.
I’m still working on Part II of Lileigh’s Location which takes up the second issue:
2. Morality: Agency – Rights and Responsibilities
Here’s the scope of morality:
1. Is pregnancy a prima facie moral good or evil?
2. Is consent to sex also prima facie consent to pregnancy?
3. Is protection of life an implied moral responsibility?
6. Are human rights and responsibilities ‘detachable’ or intrinsic?
4. Are human rights exclusive of human responsibilities?
5. Is absolute bodily sovereignty an intrinsic moral human right? If not, how and by whom is it granted?
I’d appreciate your insight on the first part, while developing the next part. Thanks.
I’m there my friend. I’ll give you feedback by the end of the day. God love you.
What a precious little baby, Bethany! In the midst of your own pain and suffering, your courageous love did not forget others. You took what was obviously an emotional risk in showing others the truth of what a human being looks like at this early stage of pregnancy. It highlights even more for me the miracle of life. Your Blessing truly is a gift who illustrates not only the beauty of human life but also the frailty. Try and forgive those who do not understand this yet, for a soul who does not perceive the value of a human life, a soul who has no natural inclination to love and protect particularly the most vulnerable among us, is living in a darkness so deep that they can not fully enjoy the beauty of the most important, natural things that God has provided in this life, including love. In the past I have received similar, gut-gnawing emails, and all I can say is while they hurt, they are not the truth. In fact they represent and perpetuate deception; evil is alive and well. And so is Blessing who rests in the arms of our Father Who Is all that He said He Is! Much love, encouragement and gratitude to you!
Thank you so much, Ashli!
Good quote of the day question, Jasper!
Truthseeker, 3:16 a.m.
I LOVE that! Thank you..that has always made me smile!
HisMan 11:57PM
My deepest sympathy to you and your family. How tragic.
SoMG,
Aha, I see, MK, you’re talking about ALREADY-BORN siamese twins.
*
I would say if one of the twins wants to be separated, and the other does not, then the one who wants to be separated should have his way.
You’re still missing the point…if the twins decide that they want to be separated, and death will result for one of them, which twin gets to live? Which twin gets to decide?
Twin A no longer wants to share a body with Twin B. Twin B is cramping her style and needs Twin A’s body to live. She is using Twin A’s body to stay alive. Does Twin A have the right to kill twin B, to evict her, so that Twin A can gain bodily autonomy?????
Posted by: mk at April 16, 2008 6:23 AM
mk:
The cuter one gets to live.
mk: The cuter one gets to live.
Posted by: Janet at April 16, 2008 12:22 PM
Sorry, I was just being facetious.
SoMG: And I’d rather be conceived and aborted than never conceived at all.
Edyt: To have lived a short life is better than to not have lived at all, what’s not to get…?
WHY???
“It simply boils down to the most SELFISH life wanting to convenience itself by killing another life – pretty obvious to anyone who is the slightest bit willing to accept reason and logic”
What an excellent statement – and yes most proaborts would agree with this wholeheartedly except for the word selfish! and maybe “Killing”!!
I LOVE that too Elizabeth
And I am very glad that you LOVE it too. I LOVE that Sermon on the Mount.
If you’re a person and you’re located inside another person’s body, then the other person has the right to kill and evict you when she wants, because it’s HER body.
A lie repeated over and over doesn’t magically become truth.
Chris: SoMG – Like I said before, if a sociopath were to put a pencil within 3 inches of my eye, I would feel threatened and kill the sociopath in self-defense. Context is vital to the moral scope, but you chose to ignore that point. So, like Doug, if you don’t respect me enough to read what I wrote, in particular, when I refuted your argument I have no reason to believe you care enough about me as a person.
Chris, I haven’t followed your and SoMG’s debate, but you really don’t “prove” anything or refute, but rather state your opinion as if it’s some sort of external truth, and it’s not.
Doug, how do YOU define external truth?
Chris, I haven’t followed your and SoMG’s debate, but you really don’t “prove” anything or refute, but rather state your opinion as if it’s some sort of external truth, and it’s not.
Amazing how the same statement could be turned on you.
“Chris, I haven’t followed your and SoMG’s debate, but you really don’t “prove” anything or refute, but rather state your opinion as if it’s some sort of external truth, and it’s not.”
Bethany: Amazing how the same statement could be turned on you.
No, if something is my opinion I say so – I don’t pretend that it’s external or “absolute.”
Doug, how do YOU define external truth?
Janet, things which exist independent of the mind, things with physical existence, matters of logic. That’s about it. If A is part of B and B is part of C, then is it not true that A is part of C?
If a thing has physical existence, do you or I have to be aware of it? No – either it’s there or it’s not, regardless of what we think.
Same with “objective” and “subjective.”
Does a thing exist in the mind and belong to the entity thinking (subjective) or does it belong to the object of thought (objective)? Or, if we extend it to human experience, is it just that some of us think/feel a thing, or is it universal experience?
For a thing to be “moral” or “immoral,” does there not have to be “somebody” having desires and caring one way or another, in the first place?
A thing may exist, have physical reality, etc., or we may speak of an action, but where do thoughts in the moral realm, all the “goods, bads, shoulds, should nots,” etc, come from without there being a consciousness to feel them?
This isn’t ruling out “higher” beings than us earthly humans, either – if there are conscious entities elsewhere, aliens, spirits, gods, etc., then they too may have their feelings – I’m just saying that there has to be a mind with the internal feelings (subjective) before there could be any morality.
Tony: A lie repeated over and over doesn’t magically become truth.
But, one “Oh Crap…” can wipe out a whole bunch of ‘Atta Boy’s…
Consent to sex IS prima facie consent to pregnancy.
Pregnancy is a major purpose of sex, not a side-effect.
The act may be pleasurable and relationship bonding, but mainly to induce us to engage in the act to reproduce. Look at other animals. Most do not even have sex for pleasure. Now, we are a type of animal that looks at offspring differently and raise them in bonded relationships, so that is why sex bonds relationships. Most acts do not result in conception (though this only applies to fertile days because of medical technology. The probability of conception has been estimated above 25% on the most fertile day assuming no contraceptive use), since if every sex act resulted in reproduction, it could not be used for bonding relationships to support effective reproduction.
Child support laws illustrate this intuition. After all, no “duty of due care” defense exists for child support payments.
Suppose sex were seen as a side-effect of reproduction as car crashing is of driving. Lets suppose you drive carefully, but a child runs right in front of your car. He is not old enough to know better. You would not be financially liable for his/her injuries, since you exercised the duty of due care. Most of us agree with that.
However, none of this analysis can be applied to sex-pregnancy as pregnancy is a fundamental purpose of sex.
Wow. I am so extreemly sorry about this whole thing. As if it’s not hard enough to lose your baby, but to have ignorant people throw it in your face is brutal. How inhumane these fools are. One said you have the right to “evict” the baby because it’s in your body and its your choice. Yes women do have a choice. They have a choice to keep their legs shut. They have a choice to use birth control. They have a choice to use a condom. They have a choice it’s just not the choice that they want. How pathetic. Im really sorry about the loss of that beautiful baby and my heart grieves for the mother. How pathetic these pro-choice people are. This baby was miscarried not aborted. They need to think twice about their stand, because it’s disgusting.
Madi