New poll/Old poll
The new poll question is up:
Wiki defines a community organizer as one who rallies people living in close proximity to act in their common self-interest. Do you agree with Democrat Congressman Steve Cohen that, like Barack Obama, Jesus was a community organizer?
My previous poll question asked whether John McCain’s selection of Sarah Palin as his running mate changed your vote…
It appears according to our readers, Obama was the net winner. Bear in mind Vizu tracks only the most recent 500 votes when looking for your own brightly colored flag…
As always, make comments to either this or last week’s poll here, not on the Vizu website.
Sep.20, 2008 10:15 am |
Polls |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
It seems to me as I read the narratives in the gospels that Jesus resisted people efforts to make him a ‘community organizer’. He refused to be tricked into becoming a tax protestor or a rebel. He declined repeated invitations to be king. He was content to be the son of God.
When he rode that donkey into Jerusalem, the people literally worshiped him. In just a few short days the same people were calling for him to be executed in the most painful and humiliating way possible.
Popularity is fleeting and people are fickle.
Being a community organizer is a good thing if what you are organizing the people to do raises their standard of living as well as improve their quality of life, and if it makes them more responsible and productive citizens.
Jesus left there and went to his hometown, accompanied by his disciples. When the Sabbath came, he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were amazed. “Where did this man get these things?” they asked. “What’s this wisdom that has been given him, that he even does miracles! Isn’t this the carpenter? Isn’t this Mary’s son and the brother of James, Joseph, Judas and Simon? Aren’t his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. Mark 6:1-3
The Lord Jesus Christ began His public ministry at the age of thirty, and the ministry lasted three years on this earth. His Holy Spirit continues His ministry even now, but He Himself has gone into heaven.
As Lord Jesus Christ, He is the eternal King, the Saviour, and God’s promised Anointed One, the Messiah. He is His people’s chief Prophet, to teach them God’s Word. He is His people’s only High Priest, who offered Himself as a bloody sacrifice to satisfy God’s justice and save His people. Though He is God, He became like a slave to suffer the consequences of sin in the place of His people so that they can live forever. Now He reigns in heaven, waiting for His enemies to be made His footstool.
The Lord Jesus does organize a community of those whom He calls out from the world; i.e. He is the head of His church. If I have understood correctly, Mr. Obama’s employer was a church. A true church trains and supports missionaries, not the Wiki-defined “community organizers.” The communities which missionaries organize are new churches, feeding on the Word of God and learning to follow the great Shepherd. The communities which Mr. Obama tried to organize apparently had no purpose other than to succeed economically, to get people jobs. (Someone correct me if I’m wrong.) That may be a laudable goal for a social worker, but it’s heresy for a missionary. It’s not his job; it’s the social gospel, a false gospel.
If he had been a community organizer working for some charitable organization or the government–not a church–he might have fulfilled his job description. But working for a church to organize new congregations around the social gospel, he was an enemy of Christ. (I’m not commenting on his political credentials here; I’m questioning his claim to be a Christian.)
When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” “But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”
Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.” Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.
From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life. Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. “Never, Lord!” he said. “This shall never happen to you!” Jesus turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men.” Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?” Matt. 16:13-26
A premise like that (Jesus was a community organizer)displays the profound ignorance of the left when it suits their purpose to advance their agenda.
If that’s how they want to package Jesus, then turn around and advocate the death of unborn children, they’ve completely missed the boat on Who Our Lord is and what His mission consisted of, not to mention that He established a Church so as to make sure clowns like that don’t go around wailing about community organizers.
September 20, 2008 10:37 AM
Nice post, kbhvac.
Organizers of Iran rally threatened with loss of tax-exempt status if they invited Palin. Obama campaign responsible:
http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/20/report-organizers-of-iran-rally-threatened-with-loss-of-tax-exempt-status-if-they-invited-palin/
Such wonderful quotes above kinda emphasizes that Jesus is very, very special. However, much as these scripture quotes imply a strength-of-God, it does not account for the mind-heart-boggling experience of actually befriending Him. He is not only savior, He is my Brother … or my Brother is my Savior. He finds me precious and I sure do not know where that comes from!!!! …. Could it be Abba???
Maybe we should take a look at the word ‘community’ It is a matching of two short Latin words ‘cum’ and ‘unus’. It literally means: ‘together one’. It is such a special word that many Christian churches have ‘communion’. For Catholics it is ‘communion’ which makes them ‘community’.
Well, IMO, the mainstream media is doing a great job of villifying Palin. Everything from her make-up, hairstyle,her parenting, her firearms stance, anything and everything is put out as to WHY Palin will make a terrible representative for the American people.
BUT, when you get right down to it, the REAL reason why the MSM don’t like her and especially women working in the MSM, is that she does not support ABORTION. Period.
Her life is completely antithetical to the feminist lifestyle – SHE BEARS BABIES, LOTS OF THEM AND EVEN KNOWINGLY, BABIES WITH GENETIC DISORDERS.
This is so against the grain for the MSM liberal bigots, that they will do anything to ridicule this woman.
I’m betting that if she were proabortion, we would be hearing a completely different story.
Shows you how much the feminists really respect “choice”.
Agreed, Patricia. I just read on Lifesitenews the intense hatred of Palin by so many feminists. Yikes.
Carla: yeah it was the US mag cover that got to me today when I was doing my grocery shopping. I almost went POSTAL!
It was something about her parenting mistakes. Good grief I nearly lost it at the checkout!
it’s because they’ve been caught in a lie, Patricia. The lie of abortion, “we NEED the ‘right’ of abortion to be equal, productive as, successful as, and powerful as men.”
This is not and has never been true. It has never been proven so untrue as it has since Sarah Palin.
X,
The feminists are in an uproar judging by the comments I have read on other blogs. Yeesh.
They can’t figure out why they are so angry and filled with hate. You have hit the nail on the head there. Palin has gotten to where she is without an abortion!! *gasp*
September 20, 2008 10:37 AM
Nice post, kbhvac.
Doug,
Thanks for the kind words and the encouragement.
yor bro ken
Yes, ladies…
Gov. Sarah Palin is to radical abortion-loving feminists as holy water is to Lucifer.
Oh, isn’t the writhing, screaming, and gnashing of teeth horrible to behold? It has drawn the wolves out of hiding, their sheep’s clothing laying crumpled on the ground in the form of “the cloak of feminism”. Liars.
This is actually a really cool question! I think Jesus was a community-organizer to a point, but he was also there to teach people–all who would listen–what they can do to live a better, more godly life. Jesus was brilliant and preached love and acceptance and all the GOOD of GOD.
Jesus should run for president… and he should be Canada’s PM as well.
Here’s a question:
If you were doing a documentary on pregnancy/parenting and education, what would you call it?
Jesus should run for president… and he should be Canada’s PM as well.
Posted by: Leah at September 20, 2008 5:55 PM
NOPE. If he ran for PM in Canada, the liberals would have Hugh Hefner as a candidate, and he WOULD win. It’s that bad here…………
Patricia: lol
I don’t think Jesus would belong to a party. He’d start his own: The Jesus Party.
The Lethbridge MP Green candidate looks pretty good… but whenever I say that I want to declare firmly: “I AM NOT A HIPPY!!!” They’re talking a lot about giving money to educational institutes, which I obviously support. But of course–this is Lethbridge (moreover, this is Alberta)… the Conservative will win.
Education, though… it’s good.
Hey… there were so many votes, mine got erased. Not cool. I like seeing my little isolated Lethbridge flag. Boo.
PIP, I’d definitely go with some sort of pun…but I’m weird like that. :)
I agree with Lauren, a pun would be good.
If you think community organizers are bad what do you think of evangelists or missionaries? They must be universally horrible people too.
“NOPE. If he ran for PM in Canada, the liberals would have Hugh Hefner as a candidate, and he WOULD win. It’s that bad here…………”
Not much different in the States Patricia, Hugh Hefner would be running ~50/50 against Jesus…
I am uploading march 30 2001 transcript that is read by me. It is part 1 I suppose but I figure since C-span won’t show Obama opposing born alive, I’ll read the speech he gave. Everytime I visit my channel, I’ll hear that on autoplay and everyone else will too. Stay tuned if you’re interested. Clicking on my username will take you to it. At the moment the dog is on autoplay but that will change once this finishes uploading.
Hey, Leah, way to go Lethbridge!
I lived in Calgary for 3 years, long time ago!
are you voting Green?
I am voting PC because we have a fantastic prolife, profamily guy!
I made the comment I did above because it’s a take-off on the fact that we couldn’t get EWTN in Canada but we did get the Playboy channel. Yeah Canada! We really have our priorities bass ackward!
It’s no lie though that Pontius Pilate was a governor.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBZIy9vIXBM
prettyinpink @ 6:07 PM
Inside:Out
To all Christian prolifers:
Continue to pray for this nation, John McCain and especially for Sarah Palin. The Lord has laid her especially on my heart because the enemy of human life, Satan, hates her. Jesus said “I have come to give you life, more abundantly” The enemy comes “to lie, KILL, steal and destroy” The anger and hatred that is being directed toward her is a manifestation of hatred Satan has toward us becaues he knows that he is defeated by the power of the resurrection of Jesus, who gave his life that we might have LIFE. He paid the ultimate sacrifice for us so we would not have to pay the ultimate price of eternal death, which is eternal separation from God.
God has encouraged me not to worry, stress out and not to fear, so I am encouraging you also. Jesus said “Fear not, I have overcome the world” If fear grips your heart (as it sometimes does me) remember he is in control. He alone “puts up kings and puts them down” “The heart of the king is in God’s hands”. He put John McCain, Sarah Palin in the unlikely positions of candidates for President and Vice-President of the U.S. (who would of thunk it). God allowed this past couple of weeks 2 major hurricanes to devastate this nation and the banking empires, stock market and the US economy to be totally shaken up. Everything that can be shaken will be shaken that is not grounded in HIM. Pray and fast for the souls and hearts of your nation and the nations of the world. Tell those who don’t know Him about His love and the plan of salvation through Jesus, God’s Son. “If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sins and heal your land” 2 Chronicles 7:14. God bless you and may God save the United States from the physical and spirtual enemies of LIFE.
Thank you, Prolifer L.
I appreciate your spiritual insight. I’ve noticed how diabolical the rage against Sarah has been. Limbaugh even went so far as to call the seething liberals as an atttempt to destroy God, which I interpret through my prolife lenses the goal of abortion: an attempt to destroy God by destroying His image in each and every human life.
Amen. Amen. And amen.
Chris, 8:20 that’s good!
The words “self interest” and Jesus do not belong in the same sentence. Never do you see in the scriptures that we are to put our own needs before those of others. We are to be servants not selfish. I can’t imagine what Christ must think of any professing Christian attempting to compare Him with the likes of a lying ungodly man such as Obama. Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.
Thank you carder for your spiritual insight as well. The divine destiny, purpose and legacy that is in every human life is an affront to everything Satan stand for. Nothing makes Satan happier than to see God’s creation, made in God’s image and likeness destroy human life and a man’s legacy. For a mother to “choose” to take her innocent child and destroy his or her life is the ultimate insult to God, the Creator and the enemy enjoys it.
When Sarah Palin held her baby Trig in her arms at the RNC convention it enraged Satan and the pro-aborts “How dare her show the world their so-called “right to choose” is “the right to choose” to kill a beautiful, innocent child. The baby that “never should have seen the light of day” was shown to the whole world and the shamefulness of abortion was exposed. God showed me this was his doing and his doing alone. Pro-lifers he orchestrated what has happened and he let me know this was not an accident. He is in control. Keep praying and fasting, especially for Sarah Palin, her family and John McCain as well. Pray for the hearts of the people of this nation to be transformed so they will “choose life that they and their seed may live”.
And while I don’t have a dream to share as it seems to be the trend as of late, I will share an experience.
The other night I went to bed distressed over the whole possibility of Obama winning the election, knowing that unborn children would have guaranteed death sentences under his regime. I woke up the next morning and out of my heart came, “Lord, if it is your permissive will that Obama becomes president, then I will gladly embrace martyrdom. So be it. If your wrath means my death for the Innocents, then grant me the grace to embrace it as other courageous martyrs have before me.”
By that definition I think its clear Jesus was a community organizer of sorts. Jesus does exactly that, he walks among the sinners, accepting them and rallying to shed their sins confess and follow the ways of the Lord, which is certainly acting on their self interest. It is on a FAR FAR FAR higher scale than anyone else, not only because of the mission but because it continues to this day.
Here are the names of Jesus Christ. “Community Organizer” is not listed, however, King of Kings and Lord of Lords is one of my favorites:
Adam, the Last (1 Cor. 15:45)
Advocate (1 Jn. 2:1)
All & in All (Col. 3:11)
Almighty (Rev. 1:8)
Altogether Lovely One (Song of Sol. 5:16)
Amen (Rev. 3:14)
Anchor (Heb. 6:19)
Ancient of Days (Dan. 7:9-11 with Rev. 1:13-16)
Angel [of the Lord] (Gen. 16:9-14; Gen. 48:16)
Anointed, His (Ps. 2:2). See also Messiah.
Apostle (Heb. 3:1)
Arm of the Lord (Isa. 53:1)
Alpha & Omega (Rev. 1:8; 21:6)
Author (Heb. 12:2)
Balm of Gilead (Jer. 8:22)
Beginning (Col. 1:18)
Begotten (One and Only – John 3:16)
Beloved (Eph. 1:6)
Bishop of your souls (1 Pet. 2:25)
Blessed and only Potentate (1 Tim. 6:15)
Branch (Isa. 11:1; Jer. 23:5; Zech. 3:8; 6:12; Rev. 11:1)
Bread (John 6:32-33; 6:35)
Bridegroom (Mt. 9:15; Jn. 3:29; Rev. 21:9)
Bright & Morning Star, see Star.
Brightness of His (God’s) glory (Heb. 1:3)
Captain of their salvation (Heb. 2:12; Josh. 5:4)
Carpenter[‘s son] (Mt. 13:55; Mk. 6:3)
Chief[est among ten thousand] Song of Sol. 5:10)
Child, [the young] (Isa. 9:6; Mt. 2:8-21)
Chosen of God (Lk. 23:35)
Christ (Mt. 1:17; Mk. 8:29; Jn. 1:41; Rom. 1:16; 1 Cor. 1:23)
Comforter (Isa. 61:2; Jn. 14:16)
Commander (Isa. 55:4)
Consolation of Israel (Lk. 2:25)
Corn of Wheat (Jn. 12:24)
Cornerstone (Eph. 2:20; see also Isa. 28:16)
Counsellor (Isa. 9:6; Isa. 40:13)
Covert (Isa. 32:2)
Creator of all things (Col. 1:16)
Daysman (Job 9:33)
Dayspring from on high (Lk. 1:78)
Day Star (2 Pet. 1:19). See also Bright & Morning Star.
Deliverer (Rom. 11:26)
Desire of all nations (Hag. 2:7)
Door [of the sheepfold] (Jn. 10:7, 9)
Emmanuel (Mt. 1:23; see also Isa. 7:14; 8:8)
End, see Beginning & the End. End of the Law (Rom 10:4)
Express image of His (God’s) person (Heb. 1:3)
Faithful Witness (Rev. 1:5; 3:14; 19:11)
Faithful & True (Rev. 19:11)
Father of Eternity (Isa. 9:6)
Fellow of God (Zech. 13:7)
First & the Last (Rev. 1:17)
First begotten of the dead (Rev. 1:5)
Firstborn Firstfruits [of them that slept] (1 Cor. 15:20, 23)
Foundation (Isa. 28:16; 1 Cor. 3:11)
Fountain (Jer. 2:13; Zech. 13:1)
Forerunner (Heb. 6:20)
Friend of sinners (Mt. 11:19; Lk. 7:34)
Fulness of the Godhead (Col. 2:9)
Gift of God (Jn. 4:10; 2 Cor. 9:15)
Glory of God (Isa. 60:1)
God (Jn. 1:1; Mt. 1:23; Rom. 9:5; 1 Tim. 3:16; Heb. 1:8)
Good Master (Mt. 19:16)
Governor (Mt. 2:6)
Great High Priest (Heb. 4:14)
Guide (Ps. 48:14)
Head (even Christ) (Eph. 4:15)
Heir of all things (Heb. 1:2)
Helper (Heb. 13:6)
Hiding Place (Isa. 32:2)
High Priest (Heb. 3:1; 7:1)
Holy Child (Acts 4:30)
Holy One [& the Just] (Acts 2:27; 3:14)
Hope of Israel (Jer. 17:3)
Horn of salvation (Ps. 18:2; Lk. 1:69)
I AM (Jn. 8:24, 58)
Image of [the invisible] God (2 Cor. 4:4; Col. 1:15)
Intercessor (Heb. 7:25)
Jehovah (Isa. 26:4; 40:3)
Jesus (Mt. 1:21)
Judge (Micah 5:1; Acts 10:42)
Just One (Acts 7:52)
King (Zech. 14:16)
Kinsman (Ruth 2:14)
Lamb [of God] (Jn. 1:29, 36; 1 Pet 1:19; Rev. 5:6, 12; 7:17)
Last, see First. (Rev. 22:13)
Lawgiver (Isa. 33:22)
Life (1 Jn. 1:2)
Light (Jn. 12:35)
Lion of the tribe of Judah (Rev. 5:5)
Lord [& Saviour] (1 Cor. 12:3; 2 Pet. 1:11), see also Master.
Man (Jn. 19:5; Acts 17:31; 1 Tim. 2:5). See also Son of Man.
Master (Mt. 8:19)
Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5)
Merciful High Priest (Heb. 2:17)
Mercy Seat (Rom. 3:24-25)
Messiah (Dan. 9:25; Jn. 1:41; 4:25)
Mighty God (Isa. 9:6; 63:1)
Minister of the Sanctuary (Heb. 8:2)
Nazarene (Mk. 1:24)
Nobleman (Lk. 19:12)
Offering (Eph. 5:2; Heb. 10:10)
Offspring of David (Rev. 22:16). See also Root.
Ointment poured forth (Song of Sol. 1:3)
Omega. See Alpha & Omega.
One and Only Son, see Son. (John 3:16)
Passover (1 Cor. 5:7)
Peace, our (Eph. 2:14)
Physician (Mt. 9:12; Lk. 4:23)
Plant of Renown (Ezek. 34:29)
Potentate, Blessed and only, see Blessed Prince [& a Saviour] (Acts 3:15; 5:31)
Prophet (Acts 3:22-23)
Propitiation (1 Jn. 2:2; 4:10)
Power of God (1 Cor. 1:24)
Priest (Heb. 4:14)
Quickening (life-giving) Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45)
Rabbi (Jn. 3:2; Mt. 26:25; Jn. 20:16)
Ransom (1 Tim. 2:6)
Redeemer, Redemption (Isa. 59:20; 60:16; 1 Cor. 1:30)
Refuge (Isa. 25:4)
Resurrection & the Life (Jn. 11:25)
Righteousness (Jer. 23:6; 33:16; 1 Cor. 1:30)
Rock [of offence] (Deut. 32:15; 1 Cor. 10:4; Rom. 9:33; 1 Pet. 2:8)
Rod (Isa. 11:1)
Root (Rev. 22:16)
Rose of Sharon (Song of Sol. 2:1)
Sacrifice (Eph. 5:2)
Same, the (Heb. 1:12)
Sanctification (1 Cor. 1:30)
Saviour [of the world] (Lk. 1:47; 2:11; 1 Jn. 4:14)
Second Man, see Man.
Seed of Abraham (Gal. 3:16, 19)
Seed Servant (Isa. 42:1; 49:5-7; Mt. 12:18)
Shadow of a great Rock (Isa. 32:2)
Shepherd ( 1 Peter 5:4)
Shiloh (Gen. 49:10)
Son (Isa. 9:6; 1 Jn. 4:14)
Sower (Mt. 13:37)
Star (Num. 24:17)
Stone (Psalm 118:22)
Sun of Righteousness (Mal. 4:2)
Surety (Heb. 7:22)
Teacher (Mt. 26:18; Jn. 3:2; 11:28). See also Master.
Tender Plant (Isa. 53:2)
Testator (Heb. 9:15-17)
True Bread, see Bread.
Truth (Jn. 14:6)
Vine (Jn. 15:1, 5)
Way (Jn. 14:6)
Wisdom [of God] (1 Cor. 1:24, 30)
Wonderful (Isa. 9:6)
Word (Jn. 1:1)
thank you all for your spiritual insight. I have been encouraged by reading your comments.
In regard to the polls:
Is there another company you can use which records all the opinions.
Also, it seems like multible votes by one person are allowed or a great number of people not friendly to Pro Life are infiltrating the site.
By that definition I think its clear Jesus was a community organizer of sorts. Jesus does exactly that, he walks among the sinners, accepting them and rallying to shed their sins confess and follow the ways of the Lord, which is certainly acting on their self interest. It is on a FAR FAR FAR higher scale than anyone else, not only because of the mission but because it continues to this day.
Dan, beautifully said.
I’m a little bit puzzled about Jill’s pick of responses, because whether or not one believes in the story, the story is still there, and going with that the question applies.
Joan-
there are far more readers then commenters.
I think we scare people off sometimes with the intensity of our debates, lol.
And while I don’t have a dream to share as it seems to be the trend as of late, I will share an experience.
The other night I went to bed distressed over the whole possibility of Obama winning the election
Carder, you continue to rock, in your very honest way.
Of course nobody has a crystal ball, but even though Obama currently has a lead in the polls, my best guess is that McCain will end up winning by 2 points – the race issue will in the end make for that.
it seems like multible votes by one person are allowed or a great number of people not friendly to Pro Life are infiltrating the site.
Joan, it’s likely one of those devastating, all-encompassing, not-to-be-denied Liberal “raids.”
HisMan,
It’s the total arrogance of the Obama campaign that they call Jesus a ‘community organizer’. I’d would call what they are doing is outright blasphemy ->the crime of assuming to oneself the rights or qualities of God.
Prolifer L – you got the QoTD…
Thank you Jasper I am honored and humbled. God bless. Good night all.
Patricia: I’m voting Green in an offhanded sort of way… since I’m not Canadian I can’t vote, but my boyfriend said I could pick who he votes for. It so happens we both like the Green candidate.
You might mistake him for a hippy, though. :) I tell him he isn’t allowed to be a hippy, but he can be “bohemian.” He’s a nut.
http://leahelaine.myphotoalbum.com/view_photo.php?set_albumName=album19&id=cool_shirt_dude
I think the last picture in that album is of Saskatchewan, which we drove through on the way here from Ontario (I mean… obviously, we had to)… I was so bored. :)
Oh–I’d like to add this to my previous answer to the poll: I don’t think Jesus and Obama share many qualities. I’ll bet Jesus would rise above badmouthing his competition (even Hugh Hefner, lol)
Off to make banana bread!! Yummy…
Here’s a question:
If you were doing a documentary on pregnancy/parenting and education, what would you call it?
Posted by: prettyinpink at September 20, 2008 6:07 PM
Hi PIP!
Just an idea:
“Balancing College and Baby”. With a small image of the scales of justice – with baby on one side and stack of books on the other to balance each other out.
You know, I used to comment here a few years ago, and thought I’d stop by to see if it still existed. Surprisingly, it does, and not much has changed. A few of the same people are even still here.
Insomuch as a church can be a faith community, it wouldn’t be entirely inaccurate to say that Jesus was a community organizer, I suppose.
If Jesus was in anyway a community organizer it was because he labored tirelessly on behalf of the marginalized and forgotten. Barack Obama is a community organizer in the Chicago sense, which is to work tirelessly for the benefit of oneself, in his case, to advance his political career. Go into the neighborhoods where he “organized” and see whether BO left them any better than they were. He is a smooth talking illusionist with a messiah complex. God help us all if he is successful at obtaining the power of the presidency. Lord, have mercy.
Jesus’ community is all of mankind; past, present and future. And his business is the saving of souls.
If you were doing a documentary on pregnancy/parenting and education, what would you call it
To Be or Not to Be, that is the question…
I’d say He was more of a community “DISorganizer”…
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)
Medically safe, legal abortion has had a profound impact on American women and their families.
Couples at risk of having children affected with severe and often fatal genetic disorders have been willing to conceive because of the availability of amniocentesis and safe, legal abortion (Milunsky, 1989).
Following the legalization of abortion, the largest decline in birthrates were seen among women for whom the health and social consequences of unintended childbearing are the greatest – women over 35, teenagers, and unmarried women (Levine et al., 1999). Today, nearly thirty percent of the abortions in the U.S. are provided to women over 35 and to teenagers (CDC, 2006).
Today, abortion is one of the most commonly performed clinical procedures, and fewer than 0.3 percent of women undergoing legal abortion procedures sustain a serious complication (Boonstra et al., 2006; Henshaw, 1999).
Half of all pregnancies in the U.S. each year are unintended, and about half of these are terminated by medically safe, legal abortions. In 2002, 1.29 million abortions took place, down from an estimated 1.61 million in 1990. From 1973 through 2002, more than 42 million legal abortions occurred (AGI, 2005; Finer & Henshaw, 2003).
If safe, legal abortion were not available, more women would experience unwanted childbearing, and unwanted childbearing affects the entire family. Mothers with unwanted births suffer from higher levels of depression and lower levels of happiness than mothers without unwanted births. They spank and slap their children more often than other mothers, and spend less leisure time outside the home with their children. Lower-quality mother/child relationships are not limited to the child born as a result of the unwanted pregnancy all the children in the family suffer (Barber et al., 1999).
The legalization of abortion has also improved the average living conditions of children. Because of increased access to abortion, cohorts born after 1973 are less likely than those born before 1973 to be in single-parent households, to live in poverty, and to receive welfare. They also experience lower infant mortality rates (Gruber et al., 1999).
In 1973, the majority of abortions were performed in hospitals. Today, most abortions are performed in clinics. This change in locale has also allowed more women to have access to comprehensive reproductive health services, including, but not limited to, contraceptive counseling, family planning services, and gynecological care (Cates et al., 2003).
abortion rights advocates claimed Child Abuse would decrease. Child abuse has NOT decreased since Abortion was legalized.
They also claim they want abortion to be RARE, but we have 3000 abortions a DAY in this country, which is about 1 Million a year. That’s NOT RARE.
They claim increased access to birth control will decrease abortion. Birth control is handed out like candy in some places and still the abortion rate is 3000 a day.
Babies with small surgically fixable deformities (like cleft lip) are being aborted.
Some people are aborting their children because there is an increased chance of AUTISM!
And of course there’s the 90% abortion rate for babies that MAY be born with Downs.
America: Wake up. Abortion IS not good for the Economy OR for America itself.
Melvin,
Are you seriously advocating the murder of pre born children as a method of reducing potential child abuse?
Doug @ 9:59 PM,
I’m a little bit puzzled about Jill’s pick of responses, because whether or not one believes in the story, the story is still there, and going with that the question applies.
I think Jill is only looking for the opinions of believers so if you are not a believer you’d just mark the box saying “No, I don’t believe Jesus ever lived.” She’s not looking for answers from people who think the bible is just a story.
mk @ 6:45,
I’d say He was more of a community “DISorganizer”…
Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.” (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)
I’ve been trying to come up with the right answer for a day now, and you said it better than I ever could have! AMEN!
Janet,
MK’s batting 1000 today! Go MK! ;-)
Do you know why we have to choose between flawed candidates for president and vice president?
Because Jesus has declined the invitation to be president. He will not volunteer to be demoted……….again.
abortion rights advocates claimed Child Abuse would decrease.
Liz, it certainly has decreased from what it would have been without legal abortion.
I think Jill is only looking for the opinions of believers so if you are not a believer you’d just mark the box saying “No, I don’t believe Jesus ever lived.” She’s not looking for answers from people who think the bible is just a story.
Janet, perhaps, but it’s not so simple as that, since there are people who might doubt whether Jesus was divine or not, but believe such a person did live.
We humans have this proclivity for remaking God in our own image, in our own understandign. That is why we have all these european artists painting pictures of Jesus fair skin, flowing blond hair and blue eyes and all too often efeminate.
We are like the blind men in the childs tale describing an elephant by the way it feels, and thought each of them is examining the same animal they each attemtping to use words to communicate what they are touching.
We as mortal humans can never know all of God with our finite minds. We can only know the parts HE reveals to each of us. It is only by serving and sharing with one another that we can begin to see the fullness of God.
We know in part, we see in part, each part of the body of Christ provides that which is lacking in other members. How can you say you love God whom you have not seen [refuse to recognize] if you do not have love in your heart for your fellow member of the body of Christ.
Janet, perhaps, but it’s not so simple as that, since there are people who might doubt whether Jesus was divine or not, but believe such a person did live.
Posted by: Doug at September 21, 2008 2:48 PM
Well, if you only believe he was a regular person who did live, then maybe she still doesn’t want to include that in her poll. I suppose only Jill could tell you exactly why she worded it the way she did!
Abortion has NOT decreased Child Abuse. Deliberate Abortion is the **ULTIMATE** Child abuse. Denying the right of a child to be born, to have a mother and father, to play peek a boo, to color, to learn nursery rhymes, to smile, and to be LOVED. How many baby girls that were denied the right to be born never got to watch Cinderella or play dress up as a Princess? How many little boys never got to watch Lightning McQueen in “CARS” or cheer on Buzz as he went to rescue his friend Woody in Toy Story 2? How many children never got to visit Disney World and get a big hug from Mickey Mouse? 40,000,000+ and growing EVERY DAY.
Liz, it certainly has decreased from what it would have been without legal abortion.
Doug, first of all, how could you possibly know that for certain? Is there really a study of mothers who are out there saying “Well, I had planned to abuse my children, but I decided to have them killed, pre birth, instead”? This is pure speculation and some pretty perverse justification on the part of of the anti-life crowd.
Hi gang,
it seems that much of the PL rationalization especially about sexual responsibility makes little sense (or is considered an unnecessary encumbrance) by some PC. (Just a proposal for feedback:) should we speak of a right to access – parents/nurture/etc – to replace the tired old cliche that a developing human somehow ‘robs’ the woman of nutrients/body-integrity. Seems to me that from a right to life would naturally flow ‘a right to access’ …. parenting; protection; nurturing; etc
John,
I think I get where you’re coming from, but I still believe it’s the other way around. Right to access, parenting, protection, etc., flow from the preeminent and foundational right to life. The way I see it, life is first. All other rights flow from that. Without the right to life, all other rights are meaningless.
DeeL,
I believe you and John McD are on the same page about LIFE. John is making an additional point that the “right to access” for the fetus also naturally exists, and is more accurate a description of the fetus’ rights in the womb than the argument many PC’rs give – that a fetus is a “parasitic” type of unwelcome invader with no rights of its own.
John, I love your thoughts on this – I hope I interpreted them correctly.
right on Deel,
just thought that it stood very much alone (to many) and therefore wide open to criticism by PC. It seems that non-discrimination rights can be phrased as ‘access rights’ also.
Doug, first of all, how could you possibly know that for certain? Is there really a study of mothers who are out there saying “Well, I had planned to abuse my children, but I decided to have them killed, pre birth, instead”? This is pure speculation and some pretty perverse justification on the part of of the anti-life crowd.
Dee, not at all. How many more kids would there be without legal abortion in the US these past 35 years? Would some of them have been abused? Well, obviously.
(Just a proposal for feedback:) should we speak of a right to access – parents/nurture/etc – to replace the tired old cliche that a developing human somehow ‘robs’ the woman of nutrients/body-integrity.
John, the “robs” stuff sounds like button-pushing on the part of some people. I mean, really – it’s up to the woman in the first place, and there’s no conscious will to do any such thing on the part of the unborn, so I don’t see that as any rational point of argument.
We don’t say the unborn are “guilty,” IMO – not if we have any sense, since there’s no capacity for guilt there.
However, rights are in the mind of the beholder, so there there’s certainly an argument to be made.
I suppose only Jill could tell you exactly why she worded it the way she did!
That Jill can be as mysterious as she is cute….
the argument many PC’rs give – that a fetus is a “parasitic” type of unwelcome invader with no rights of its own.
Janet, there too, I think the “parasite” stuff is attempted button-pushing by some people, because of the negative connotation of the word. It’s like the “pro-abort” stuff.
You’re correct about the “no rights,” and that’s what pro-lifers want to change, by and large.
The potential possibility of Child abuse is still NOT an excuse to abort a child. :(
“Sorry, but its just too possible that I might hurt you, so instead of giving you a chance at life, I’ve decided to stop the suffering (Read: the potential for abuse) before it happens”. That’s pro abortion rhetoric for you.
Liz, nobody was saying “excuse.” The will of the pregnant woman is a good enough reason; no “excuse” needed.
The point was that there’d be a lot more child abuse without legal abortion – it just stands to reason that a lot of the kids that would be here without it would be abused, millions probably, over 35 years.
Yeah – suffering, indeed. There can be a lot more suffering on the part of one born child than may occur in a vast number of abortions.
You don’t get it at all, Doug. Abortion has NOT decreased Child Abuse. I think Child abuse has INCREASED. Abortion didn’t ELIMINATE it, if that’s what you’re trying to insinuate.
Hi Liz,
I think here that most PC are caught in a semantic use of the word ‘wanted’. I remember as a kid the ‘WANTED, DEAD or ALIVE’ posters. Clearly these are people that are ‘wanted’ to be targeted. In a very similar manner, children are ‘wanted’ as targets for abuse.
The word ‘wanted’ is only supposed benign when it isn’t.
LizfromNebraska, you are right about an increase in child abuse. I had read a newspaper article a while back in which a pediatrician did some research expecting to find a decrease in abuse but he actually found the opposite. But it makes sense to me. It falls into line with a devaluing of human life that has resulted from the acceptance of abortion.
I should have mentioned that the children who were abused were also “wanted” children!!!
Eileen, I’m always skeptical of those statistics because I think a big part of child abuse tracking comes from recognizing it as abuse — which I think is something that has increased from the 60s on.
I know my mom got hit by her parents all the time, as did her nine siblings and a good portion of her friends. No one considered it abuse, but I think it’s safe to say it would be considered abuse in our current climate. So I wonder how much of those statistics is a difference in reporting rather than a difference in behavior.
Alexandra, I believe that the abuse that was researched took into account all forms of abuse, not just physical.
I think that my point stands for emotional abuse as well, though perhaps not sexual abuse — I know less about that. My point is, things that are now considered abuse were not at one point in fairly recent history. So it seems inaccurate to me to look at statistics of abuse and judge a rise in reporting or a shift in definition as a rise in behavior. It’s just something I would consider; I haven’t studied the issue myself.
Dee, not at all. How many more kids would there be without legal abortion in the US these past 35 years? Would some of them have been abused? Well, obviously.
Of course some of them would have been abused, we’re talking about over 40 million children in the U.S. alone, but there is no way to statistically determine the numbers. And regardless of that, it is simply immoral and illogical to “save” children from abuse, potential or otherwise, by actually killing them. If you really believe abortion is a solution to the abuse problem, you are one sick, sick puppy and need some serious help.
John and Janet,
Thanks for the clarification. I wholeheartedly agree.
Doug @ 1:42 PM There can be a lot more suffering on the part of one born child than may occur in a vast number of abortions.
Easy to say since no one came after you with a vacuum or sharp instruments while in your mother’s womb. Who are you to know what an aborted child suffers?
You don’t get it at all, Doug. Abortion has NOT decreased Child Abuse. I think Child abuse has INCREASED. Abortion didn’t ELIMINATE it, if that’s what you’re trying to insinuate.
Liz, the reporting rate is a lot higher now, but actual cases of abuse are lower on a per-capita basis. In the 50’s and 60’s some things were pretty routine, things which now are often considered abuse.
Also, as I said – a lot more kids would have meant a lot more abuse, even had the abuse rate stayed the same.
Easy to say since no one came after you with a vacuum or sharp instruments while in your mother’s womb. Who are you to know what an aborted child suffers?
Dee, to a point in gestation there isn’t going to be any sensation, in the first place. We can argue about when the unborn become aware, but most abortions are done pretty darn early in gestation.
How do you know that there hasn’t been some kind of adjustment for the differences in views regarding abuse from one generation to the next in research? What exactly was considered routine discipline that would be considered abuse today? If you are referring to corporal discipline there is a big difference between spanking and hitting for example.
Doug,
I have read your comments and I am sickened. Really.
I will NOT debate with you…..but
it is best that I get my little fingers off my keyboard immediately.
I’m with you Carla. Doug’s views are nothing short of grotesque. I’m done with that conversation.
Carla, it’s not some “incredible” thing – it’s just that among the millions more kids that there would be had there been no legal abortion (I think we can agree on that) – nsome of them would have been abused.
Eileen, I do recognize that there’s a difference between abuse and spanking. As I’ve said I haven’t studied this, but child abuse — if acknowledged at all — was usually considered something of a private matter until the past few decades, as far as I’ve ever heard or read.
My mom mostly got smacked with a hairbrush (on the behind or on the back of her head, depending). When it was on the head it was usually a lighter hit, just a few quick strikes right there opposite the part between your eyes; but on the butt it was usually really hard, like hard enough that the kids were sore the next day and had trouble sitting through a full day of school. She shared a bed with her sisters and they’d all go hide under the covers to try to get away from the screams of whichever kid was getting hit. I think both hitting on the back of the head and hitting that hard on the butt would be considered abuse today, though neither were considered exceptional in her neighborhood at the time. She grew up in a poor neighborhood just outside of Detroit and was born in 1948, if it matters.
One time she fell down the stairs because she was running away from something that had scared her, and her mom was mad about the doctor’s bill so she yanked her around by her broken arm a little bit. I think that was an emotional outburst rather than a planned disciplinary measure so it’s probably less subject to a change of interpretation. I think at the time — 1958ish? — people would probably have considered it wrong but would’ve hesitated to call it abuse.
She got hit on the knuckles by nuns at school a lot, but I don’t think that would be considered abuse today, I mean if it were done by a parent rather than a teacher. But anyway my point is that it’s not like I’m saying spanking is the same thing as abusing. I think spanking is less common today as well, but I also think we have a lower threshold for the definition of abusive than we did 50 or 60 years ago.
Alexandra,
Yes, unfortunately your mom was abused. Hearing things like that really sadden me but I have a difficult time believing that “punishment” like that was prevalent and acceptable even 50 years ago.
Maybe the research itself (samples, method, etc.) should be examined more closely before dismissing it. The pediatrician may very well have taken into account cultural attitudes and changes over time while doing his research.
I would like to say something somewhat off track. Yes, I know that there were some nuns who used corporal punishment but there were plenty of public school teachers who used it too. My mom was taught by nuns through elementary and high school and there was not one incident of corporal punishment imposed by the nuns (that was back in the 40s and 50s.) Kids had to do a lot of writing on the blackboard or on paper! I felt that I had to defend the sisters — they are always being made fun of.
Doug,
It is “incredible” to me that a man like you has no sense of conviction, no sense of morality, no sense of duty to protect the smallest among us.
You use words like “many, most, if not all, vast, a lot more” in such a non committal way. These are babies we are talking about. Human beings.
Yep. We can joke and poke fun at each other and yap about movies. All fine and well. But it seriously breaks my heart that a man like you would never consider that maybe…just maybe…we might be right.
I do not debate you on abortion anymore. I just don’t have it in me. But to say that abortion is good because it has saved millions of children from abuse is CRAP! IMHO!
Carla, unfortunately, when it comes right down to it, nothing surprises me anymore — once one embraces the killing of unborn human beings, one’s reasoning becomes very twisted.
Maybe it’s because I like Doug I get so ticked! I hear ya, Eileen. :)
Eileen #2 @ 9:24,
My mom was taught by nuns through elementary and high school and there was not one incident of corporal punishment imposed by the nuns (that was back in the 40s and 50s.) Kids had to do a lot of writing on the blackboard or on paper! I felt that I had to defend the sisters — they are always being made fun of.
That reminds me – I had a principal who was a nun, she was stern, but fair. I remember our class getting in trouble for drawing all over the playground (it was a parking lot) with chalk during recess. We spent the afternoon outside with buckets of soapy water and brushes, scrubbing chalk off of the asphalt. ( I wonder today if she just wanted to let us get some fresh air. It was a beautiful sunny day!) Isn’t that something?
“My mom was taught by nuns through elementary and high school and there was not one incident of corporal punishment imposed by the nuns”
My dad tells me about how the brothers used to backhand kids for not having their feet facing forward. My dad also one day got out of class early and was walking in the halls, and passed by a priest and said “hi Father” and Father immediately backhanded him for talking in the halls while class was still going on. Awesome.
On the other hand, I got to go to a parochial school where I was taught by a former nun who left the convent to live with her “partner.” Catholic education was not at its best in the 80s and 90s, and I highly doubt it has improved.
Bobby @ 4:44,
My dad tells me about how the brothers used to backhand kids for not having their feet facing forward.
Were they all contortionists? Never mind….
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
On the other hand, I got to go to a parochial school where I was taught by a former nun who left the convent to live with her “partner.” Catholic education was not at its best in the 80s and 90s, and I highly doubt it has improved.
I don’t know if you mean discipline-wise or academically. My experience is that the Catholic schools are doing a good job at teaching respect without the strict physical discipline of the past. Most schools, but not all, have lay teachers now and salaries are very close to public school teachers’ which helps keep the good ones leaving for higher salaries. Academics are good. They still rely heavily on the support of the parish churches. In my area a new grade school/junior high opened up a few years ago due to high demand. Personally, I’d like to see more emphasis on teaching from the Catechism. Well, I’m going to Adoration. I’ll say a special prayer for you all. Talk to you later. God bless.
I don’t doubt that there was corporal punishment imposed by some priests and nuns — just not by all priests and nuns. My dad went to public schools and had to bend over in drafting class while the teacher (a male) whacked him on the behind with a book for not printing his “j” correctly.
I think that Catholic education in general needs to improve in many places but I do hear of new schools that are being established in response to the need. Look up Magnificat Academy in Warren, MA.
Dee: Of course some of them would have been abused, we’re talking about over 40 million children in the U.S. alone, but there is no way to statistically determine the numbers. And regardless of that, it is simply immoral and illogical to “save” children from abuse, potential or otherwise, by actually killing them. If you really believe abortion is a solution to the abuse problem, you are one sick, sick puppy and need some serious help.
Dee, I didn’t say that – that abortion is “good” because it prevents any abuse the kid would suffer. I’m for leaving the decision up to the woman, to viability, pretty much no matter what.
We don’t have to determine the numbers, though – we know that among 40 million + people there would have been hundreds of thousands/millions abused. This isn’t even pro-life versus pro-choice, it’s just saying “this would have happened.”
I look at suffering and the amount of suffering, and there are kids in Darfur, in the Sudan, for example, as well as in the US, for that matter, whose suffering is great and horrible, and it outweighs the suffering that may occur in vast numbers of abortions.
Again, not saying that anybody “should” have an abortion, but if a woman feels that “I just can’t bring a kid into the world now,” or “there is no way I should bring a kid into the world now,” I’d certainly accept that as a reason for her to have an abortion.
It is “incredible” to me that a man like you has no sense of conviction, no sense of morality, no sense of duty to protect the smallest among us.
Carla, I see it as better to let women keep the freedom they have, versus trying to force them to continue pregnancies. I certainly see suffering on the part of some pregnant women if they’re not legally allowed to have abortions. In the great majority of abortions I don’t see suffering on the part of the unborn.
I do appreciate all of what you’ve said here on Jill’s blog, and I certainly believe that you have suffered, and that having an abortion was the wrong thing for you.
…..
You use words like “many, most, if not all, vast, a lot more” in such a non committal way. These are babies we are talking about. Human beings.
It’s not a “non-committal” way, it’s trying to be accurate and truthful. We see all manner of false statements and generalizing from the particular, etc., and I’m aware of the “never say never” and how our sometime desire to paint with a broad brush leads us into falsehoods.
…..
Yep. We can joke and poke fun at each other and yap about movies. All fine and well. But it seriously breaks my heart that a man like you would never consider that maybe…just maybe…we might be right.
Well, shoot, I certainly don’t want your heart broken, Carla. If there is a sadness for me it’s that people would put their own feelings above those of the pregnant woman, as it relates to most abortions. I say that because after a point I too think abortion should be restricted.
…..
I do not debate you on abortion anymore.
I don’t blame you. ; )
…..
I just don’t have it in me. But to say that abortion is good because it has saved millions of children from abuse is CRAP! IMHO!
I didn’t say that, though. I just said that a lot less abuse has occurred that what would have been the case without legal abortion in the US.
I leave the “good” or not up to the woman. Heck, we all know that all people will get some abuse – that’s just the way life is. As I said to Dee, I do see some situations, rare more than common around the world overall, where a woman may feel that having a kid at the given time is not the right thing to do because of the suffering the kid will undergo.
Eileen the Second: Carla, unfortunately, when it comes right down to it, nothing surprises me anymore — once one embraces the killing of unborn human beings, one’s reasoning becomes very twisted.
That’s silly, and certainly untrue as stated.