New favorite names
Reported Breitbart.com November 5…
Little Obamas and Michelles were coming to the world in maternities all over Kenya -one woman managing both at the same time with a pair of twins -as the party mood continued Wednesday in the nation where the US president-elect’s father was born.
In the New Nyanza provincial general hospital in Kisumu, the capital of the region which is home to Barack Obama’s ancestral village, Pauline Adhiambo gave birth to twins she named Obama and Michelle….
At least 8 other boys were named Barack or Obama – or both – in this hospital alone while maternities in the capital Nairobi and across the entire country reported new namesakes for the future occupants of the White House….
“I consulted my husband and we agreed the name Barack Obama would be ideal for our baby boy because the whole town and the entire world was very enthusiastic about Barack Obama, and we believe he is a great man,” Josephine Anyango Anyango told AFP.
I’ll confine my comment to one word: ironic.
[HT: proofreader Laura Loo; photo courtesy of Breitbart.com]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Obama is 50% white and 44% Arab African. He has very small part black, Hate to dissappoint, but it makes these look uneducated.
I didn’t see anywhere where it said they did that because Obama is black. and “only %6 percent black” I don’t know where you got that number from.. his dad was 100% Kenyan.. I mean, I got they did that because of the whole.. “half of Obama’s family is from there” thing..
I wonder if anyone will name their aborted babies after Michele and Barack?
Oh, that’s right, they’re not persons and therefore, don’t get names.
Ah, not to fret, our Lord gives them eternal names in heaven.
I had lunch with my friend today.
His family had lunch with Sarah Palin yesterday at the AZ Biltmore.
I have some photos and will e-mail them to Jill.
Sarah’s pastor is my friend and he has a word about her future in politics and it is an aweseom word!
I will post it when appropriate.
I will post it when appropriate.
Posted by: HisMan at November 6, 2008 4:38 PM
Right after you link us to your secret anti-Obama video.
Jill,
I’ve been reading your blog for a long time but this is my first comment. I am with you heart and soul but I think there is a reason why so many — all? — of the pro-life measures have gone down to defeat, and why your hard work to bring out the truth about Obama’s record did not make a dent, or enough of a dent: your tactics and the tone of your argument, while sincere and from your heart, preach only to the choir, and do not reach out to the people whose hearts you need to touch. There is a punitive, finger-wagging feel to your posts, there is a tone of righteous indignation, and if you really really want to change the world you first have to understand it, you have to find the language that will make people see the lives of the unborn as precious. Please do not be angry at me for this comment. I am trying to tell you that the way you are saying what you say, you are never going to reach out to enough of the 62 million people who voted for Obama to make a difference. It’s not enough to be right. You have to lead, and right now you are only leading those who are already walking the path behind you.
For starters, you need to become non-partisan and make the crime of abortion seem as non-partisan as burglary or the murder of an adult. You have to drop all specific references to the Republican/Conservative agenda from everything you say. You must become both completely non-political, in that sense, and completely non-religious, in the sense of promoting the laws of any specific religion. Most people do not think burglary or the murder of an adult are crimes because the Bible says they are: they just, in their hearts, know right from wrong. That’s where you have to get this issue. You can’t do it as a Republican or a Catholic.
You have to do it as a human being.
I just read a nasty article about Sarah Palin about her not knowing anything about the geography of Africa and her family way overspending on clothes from an anonymous donor who was horrified. This article really made me wonder. I truly hope this was NOT the case. Otherwise, regardless of her views on abortion, she’s just another money-grabbing politician to me.
wow, seems like the gays in LA are taking the failing of the ban on gay marriages really really hard.
wow, seems like the gays in LA are taking the failing of the ban on gay marriages really really hard.
Posted by: Patricia at November 6, 2008 5:35 PM
well, that makes sense. Denying someone basic human dignity for no reason might make a person angry.
sorry my above post should have read something like this:
seems like the gays in California are taking the ban on gay marriage pretty hard:
maybe this advice will help:
Meg Waters, part of the Yes on 8 campaign team, told City News Service, “gay and lesbian couples have exactly the same protections under the law with civil unions.”
“Marriage has been defined as a man and woman since time began,” Waters said. “The people of California have voted twice, so I think the best thing to do is for everybody involved to figure out a way to move forward.”
Waters said she understands “how gays and lesbians may feel concerned about this.”
“If they stop and look at the situation, they have the exact same legal protections and rights under the law today they had yesterday,” Waters said.
“You can’t change the definition of something that existed forever because you don’t like it.”
well, that makes sense. Denying someone basic human dignity for no reason might make a person angry.
Posted by: hal at November 6, 2008 5:37 PM
yeah, except that’s not what’s happening here Hal.
No one is taking away their dignity – just saying marriage is not two men, two women or a man and a goat. It’s between a man and a woman.
Move along now hal.
Who cares what they name them? They’re born and they’re beautiful!
“You can’t change the definition of something that existed forever because you don’t like it.”
Posted by: Patricia at November 6, 2008 5:38 PM
Sure you can. We changed the right to polygamy. That had been around forever. The right to gay marriage had been around in California for about a year. Civilization didn’t impload, yet, people decided that some loving couples in their community could no longer marry. Those already married can stay married, by the way. It’s going to be a little strange for awhile. Time is on the side of justice, however.
Time is on the side of justice, however.
Posted by: hal at November 6, 2008 5:42 PM
yes and that justice is life for the unborn and NO gay marriages!
Gays have the same rights as everyone else – they can have a civil union or whatever else they wanna call it. It’s just NOT marriage. Sorry you don’t see something special in the marriage of a man and woman. This time it’s my turn to say society doesnt agree with you Hal.
well, that makes sense. Denying someone basic human dignity for no reason might make a person angry.
Posted by: hal at November 6, 2008 5:37 PM
______________
Unless of course they’re an unborn baby, right Hal? Of course, to you they’re not persons therefore, have no rights. We’ll see about that.
Your self delusion and obfuscation abilities amaze me not because they’re magnanimous or somehow outstanding but because they even exist.
“Time is on the side of justice, however.”
Truer words have not be spoken by you, Hal :)
I see your point about unborn babies. Now tell me why gay people shouldn’t be allowed to marry?
Right after you link us to your secret anti-Obama video.
Posted by: hal at November 6, 2008 4:59 PM
___________________
McCain admitted that he made some mistakes.
Perhaps one was not releasing the video of him and Odinga together in Muslim garb. You know the brutal dictator that murdered 50 Assembly of God Christians in a church.
Or, perhaps it’s the one the LA Timex didn’t release of Obama and Khalidi. Maybe after Israel is forced to attack Iran and Obama goofs up on the reaction the LA Mickey Mouse will be forced to show the video when angry American Jews demand it.
This is going to be a wonderful 4 years.
or 8 years,perhaps.
I see your point about unborn babies. Now tell me why gay people shouldn’t be allowed to marry?
Posted by: hal at November 6, 2008 5:50 PM
___________________
God?
Patricia, are you married?
And, if you are… do you think it makes your marriage less special if two women are allowed to marry?
HisMan, with all respect, I don’t think that’s a good enough reason. A lot of things are legal that God (in the old testament) didn’t approve of. The NT seems to be more about love than old rules about eating shrimp or not loving someone special.
I’ll assume you have no legitimate reason and bid you farewell.
How about the fact that men and women are *ahem* built for each other *ahem* ? If you get my meaning.
And that’s not using any “higher power” for my argument.
Sure you can. We changed the right to polygamy. That had been around forever. The right to gay marriage had been around in California for about a year. Civilization didn’t impload, yet, people decided that some loving couples in their community could no longer marry. Those already married can stay married, by the way. It’s going to be a little strange for awhile. Time is on the side of justice, however.
Posted by: hal at November 6, 2008 5:42 PM
_______________________
Again Hal, you haven’t got a clue.
Polygamy was basically eliminated when Christianity came into being and lifted the status of women from being property and subservient to men to being equal to men.
When God comes down and says it’s OK for gays to marry I’ll have no choice but to comply or face His holy wrath.
You and all the gays in the world are not God and therefore, are not to be listened to, complied with, coddled, appeased or otherwise allowed to change God’s definition of marriage.
Yes, you are right about one thing Hal, justice will be served, however, I don’t think you are going to be pleased with the outcome.
I can relate to the elation and pride people feel when ‘one of their own’ accomplishes something great.
I can even understand the emotional tug to support ‘one of your own’ even when he or she may not be the best choice.
I am even proud as an American that we have elected a president who is not a caucasian.
It is a demonstration to ourselves and to the world, that we as a people have come a long way in the struggle against our own racism.
But as the Reverend Martin Luther King Junior said we will know we have arrived when ‘we judge a man not by the color of his skin, but the content of his character.’
The o’bama (pbuh) not only lies, he practices deception. That is not an indication of good character.
He calculates and he disembles. He equivoates and he rationalizes and he justifies, but he is seldom candid. The truth is convienent or it is a nuisance to be avoided or a obstacle to overcome.
yor bro ken
This is for Bobby, who seems like a genuinely nice person, and also seems genuinely distraught after Tuesday. I thought it might make you smile:
http://www.zefrank.com/from52to48withlove/
Hal:
Being a lawyer you know that legality and morality do not necessarily go hand in hand.
Gambling is legal but is it moral?
Prostitution is legal in Nevada but does that make it moral in just Nevada, or, is it just immoral everywhere else.
So, moral values are eternal. Legal values change like the wind can vary with time, place, and context.
Abortion to God is always immoral, in time, everywhere, and amongst all peoples. His judgements of it will not be relative or based on circumstances.
Our only hope is in Christ as His sacrifice is eternal and washes away all of our defects, our sins, our misconceptions….but only if we want Him to.
To Hal and Josephine: a man and a woman were designed to be complementary both physically (very obvious), emotionally, and spiritually. There is no way that two men, two women or a goat and a man are in any way shape or manner complimentary.
Biologically, the fact that gay sex is so terribly unhealthy is one obvious clue that this is NOT the way nature designed men to function nor what was intended of them. If you subscribe to evolution, it’s also quite obvious that gay men are an evolutionary dead end since they can never naturally beget children.
Josephine as a Catholic I think you should read THe Theology of the Body. As a young adult, if you keep an open mind it will help you to see the beauty and sacredness of marriage. You will also look at men in a totally different way. And since two women together is not a marriage I see nothing special in their relationship.
smiles: Bobby is a genuinely nice person and we prolifers are all heartbroken over this election – even some of us who live in different countries…..
Again Hal, you haven’t got a clue.
Polygamy was basically eliminated when Christianity came into being and lifted the status of women from being property and subservient to men to being equal to men.
When God comes down and says it’s OK for gays to marry I’ll have no choice but to comply or face His holy wrath.
You and all the gays in the world are not God and therefore, are not to be listened to, complied with, coddled, appeased or otherwise allowed to change God’s definition of marriage.
Yes, you are right about one thing Hal, justice will be served, however, I don’t think you are going to be pleased with the outcome.
#########I strongly agree.
Hal doesn’t study history. Before the laws in leviticus, women were mere property and men outside the Jews had relations with other males and used females for children. They of course either got rid of a barren female or just added females. the law elevated women. Most do not know that male on male was prevalent outside of Jews. Heterosexual marriage separates us from the heathen. It is much more than a ordinary civil even.
The New Testament told men to love their wives. That was very uncommon. Almost zero gays know that homosexuality is an old paraphiliac practice that is designed to b e degrading to women. God was purposefull in desroying sodom. abraham knew it displeased God and the sodomites actually did not.
i hate you.
Those who oppose same sex marriage are often accused of “hating gays,” but we always deny it. Yet here we see jonbrian flat out saying he hates those who oppose gay marriage. Mmmm, tolerance.
Patricia: I wasn’t attacking you or being a smart alec. I don’t feel my relationship is less special because of gay people. Next year I’ll be married and I will still feel that my relationship is special. I honestly just want to know the answer to the two questions I asked you.
Anyway… I feel like everyone here forgot that the government isn’t a theocracy. While you may personally feel gay marriage is wrong.. well, it doesn’t (well, it shouldn’t) matter. That’s because of your religious beliefs, and in America… we don’t have to share religious beliefs. I believe God made gay people just like he made me, maybe they didn’t turn out how God had planned..but it doesn’t make them less of a person. Anyway, maybe pro-lifers would have more luck if you stopped using a religious angle on everything. It’s like you don’t want to accept that people have different views.
Thanks smiles. That is reassuring. I’m just a little bummed, but I”m willing to see what happens, and hopefully be proven very, very wrong about President-elect Obama.
Tom Jayson:
I must totally and absolutey disagree with you.
Jill is essentially a minister of Gods’ Word and she must not dilute it but preach it with even more ferocity, more passion, more vigor and of course with even more love.
People will listen when they realize that His word is the only hope or, they will give up to theri own lusts and desires. We have no control over that as is evidenced by the posters on this site.
Do you think if Hitler’s Germany would have heard the word as you suggest would have made one difference? In fact, Christians were seen as wimps and were ignored.
Jill, please don’t listen to those that would water down and make null and void the truth. The truth is nothing we have to apologize for.
We fight, we fight with a holy zeal with the aim that we take as many to heaven with us as possible, not in preaching a Gospel of appeasment and compromise but a Gospel of Truth, that Jesus Christ is Lord and that He is the Lord of Life.
Obama will create a world where people will be desparate for the Gospel when they realize that the “one” is really just a big zero. We owe him our respect because God allowed him to become president, however, we do not have to believe anything he says that contradicts the Bible which abortion clearly does.
God will not share His glory with any man.
Matthew 11:11-13
” 11″Truly I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen anyone greater than John the Baptist! Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
12″From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.
13″For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John.”
Revelation 3:16 16So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.
Mark 6:11 And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them.
jonbrian:
It is not us you hate it is He that you hate.
I would change if I were you.
When Amercians finally determine who Barack Obama really is they will reject him as they reject gay marriage.
Dear Friend,
Although you may be concerned about the election results, I want to remind you that we won on Tuesday night–a victory that could shape millions of lives for generations to come! Your support of Focus on the Family helped make it possible, and I thought you’d be encouraged to learn how it happened.
As you may have heard, the people of California voted 52 to 48 percent to pass a constitutional amendment to restore traditional marriage. In so doing, they put a stop to the same-sex “marriages” that had been going on in California ever since the state Supreme Court issued its infamous ruling last spring.
Of course, marriage amendments also won in Arizona and Florida, and Focus on the Family Action™ helped secure those victories, but given the intricacies of state campaign laws, we were able to participate in California only by using Focus on the Family® resources.
And what you helped achieve on Tuesday night goes far beyond upholding the sanctity of marriage in California. It also:
… helps protect millions of children from radical indoctrination in the homosexual lifestyle. In Massachusetts, legalized same-sex “marriage” quickly became the pretext for redefining marriage in the classroom, and it had already started in California, too.
… safeguards religious liberty in our most populous state. Wherever same-sex “marriage” has taken hold, religious freedom has begun to crumble. In Massachusetts, for example, Catholic Charities was forced to shut down its adoption agency because of their refusal to do gay adoptions.
I’m so pleased to be able to report to you the critical role that Focus on the Family played in securing this milestone victory. From the earliest strategic discussions … to the monumental task of gathering a million-plus signatures … to the campaign itself, Focus on the Family has been integrally involved.
If you live in California or happened to see campaign materials or ads, you probably saw Focus listed as a major sponsor in the legal disclaimer of every single print ad and commercial. That’s because, thanks to your generous support, Focus was able to invest more than $550,000 in this effort. And much of that money proved to be important “seed” money that helped launch a pro-marriage campaign that was unparalleled in its magnitude.
Besides our direct contributions to the campaign, we also:
– Helped found (in 2003) the organization that led this campaign;
– Paid for early polling to determine the best ballot language and strategy;
– Assisted with a major fundraising event for the campaign;
– Encouraged pastors to get involved (which they did in remarkable ways);
– Aired broadcasts urging financial and prayer support from around the country; and
– Provided major coverage of the campaign via radio, Internet, mail and Focus magazines.
I share all of this–not to toot our own horn–but to encourage you and to thank you for so faithfully supporting our work on behalf of families. In this political and social culture, it can be easy to get a little discouraged. But God is continually moving, and we need to celebrate when He allows us to play a part in such a stunning success.
Of course, the battle for the hearts and minds of people continues on, with new challenges and opportunities around every corner. You can rest assured that we will continue to prayerfully and strategically utilize the resources that you provide. Thank you so much for equipping us to make a difference in people’s lives!
Sincerely,
Tom Minnery
Senior Vice President, Government & Public Policy
Thank you to all who helped in one way or another with Prop 102! Whether you prayed, or made phone calls, or passed around my email pleas, or all three, I appreciate you! You should feel good about your part in helping to see this amendment passed. As you may have already heard- ALL THREE state amendments passed this election year!! One interesting thing is that in California, which was a blue state, 70% of African Americans voted FOR the marriage amendment. So, they may have voted for Obama, but don’t share his views on marriage. I found that interesting.
Unfortunately, the passage of the amendments does not end the battle for marriage. Here is an article with further information about why we still need to be vigilant.
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Legal/Default.aspx?id=312706
Blessings!
Debi
My marraige Pastor, Leo Godzich of http://www.NameOnline.net was instrumental in passing all three marriage amendments.
Do you know what his names means?
Lion of Reconciliation.
I love you Pastor Leo, my friend forever! I am privileged to know you.
I have personally asked him to help me write my book on abortion and now to have Focus on the Family and other powerful evangelical groups to focus on the elimination of legalized abortion as the greatest civil rights movement of all history.
Bobby, God is moving, this thing is not over. In fact, I have never been more pumped about what God is doing.
Do not despair, God is good, God is awesome. Praise Him always and forever.
Perhaps God will use Barack himself to eliminate Roe v. Wade? Perhaps the black church will now realize what they did and pressure Barack to change his ways? Pray for this to happen.
When the church is persecuted God turns up the heat. The election of Barack Obama has just lit the flame and the gates of hell will not prevail against us.
I believe God made gay people just like he made me, maybe they didn’t turn out how God had planned..but it doesn’t make them less of a person.
No one here I believe ever stated that gay people are less persons. Nor did prop 8 state this.
Same sex-attracted persons are asking us to say that their relationships are the equivalent of marriage. They are not. And yes you are right, it all depends upon your value system. I believe marriage is a sacred union between a man and a woman until death. That is my position and no law stating otherwise will ever convince me it ain’t so. This does not prevent me from seeing the dignity in persons with same-sex attraction.
Well HisMan, that’s very nice that you hold the position that you do, and we can go right along losing and losing and losing while you sit there all happy in the knowledge that you are Doing The Right Thing.
Which would you rather do – save lives, or Follow The Path?
Patricia – you are such an…
that complementarity argument has been debunked ad infinitum(and even opening your eyes to the diversity of interests and types within genders in the real people around you would show you the falsity of that theory)
Really, then why do you want to deny them the ability to have a family? A family that is legally recognized?
So no law will convince you it’s true. Aren’t those your religious views? And since America isn’t a theocracy, can’t you see where I say your religious views really shouldn’t matter when it comes to politics and right, such a gay marriage? You keep avoiding my questions:
Are you married? And if so, would gay marriage make your marriage less special? Would it affect you in any way other than because of religious beliefs you think it’s wrong?
I see your point about unborn babies. Now tell me why gay people shouldn’t be allowed to marry?
Posted by: hal at November 6, 2008 5:50 PM
___________________
God?
Posted by: HisMan at November 6, 2008 5:54 PM
God’s gay? who woulda thought?
Posted by: phylosopher at November 6, 2008 7:23 PM
_________________________
Jill,
Blasphemy alert, blasphemy alert.
Doughboy: It’s not enuf that your guy won is it? U still hav 2 spew your hatred and blasphemy for God. Y is that? Cud it b pathological or systemic? Or perhaps indicative of a character defect?
Man, if that’s the way u get off, I feel sorry for u.
My God reigns, despite your pathetic attempts at reviling Him.
Ah, He still luvs you though which is something I have a hard time understanding. But, that’s what the Good Book says.
This too Phylactic: I suggest you send a letter to your NEA member 9th grade teacher and ask her why she passed you in English?
Hal asked a rhetorical question and I answered him, well, rhetorically. Is that over your head?
“Perhaps God will use Barack himself to eliminate Roe v. Wade?”
Wow, what a thought! Amen to that.
Josephine: my personal life is not what we are discussing here. It is irrelevant to the discussion since my understanding of what marriage is has been formed by my entire life experience and by reasoning coupled with my faith in God.
I’ve outlined some of my beliefs outside of faith as to why same-sex couples are not “married”.
Your question:
And, if you are… do you think it makes your marriage less special if two women are allowed to marry?
Posted by: Josephine at November 6, 2008 5:54 PM
is irrelevant to the discussion.
Josephine I strongly encourage you to read JP’s Theology of the Body. You will have a more detailed understanding of the dignity of marriage and why it can never be for same-sex attracted men.
—————————————
that complementarity argument has been debunked ad infinitum
really! There is no way that I know of that two men are physically complementary in a natural way. No way at all.
As for same-sex attracted persons having families: Because the rights of the children should be paramount not the wishes of the adults. No one has the RIGHT to children. Children are not objects. They are persons.
“Do not despair, God is good, God is awesome. Praise Him always and forever.”
You say that, but you also say that God is against gay people in love getting married. Doesn’t sound good and awesome to me. Sounds really unloving and cruel. I won’t praise that.
Bobby, how can you be a fellow traveler with people who think like this? Speak up for what you know is right. Can anyone point to one bad thing that has resulted from legal gay marriage in MA and CA?
Patricia. You’re arguing about your belief and your faith. Your belief and your faith isn’t other peoples though. If it doesn’t take away from your marriage, why would you want to deny two other people that simple right? Not everyone is a Christian. It’s not a requirement of living in America! If all people are equal, and if government and church and state are seperate, then why can’t any two people marry? Sure, a church may not recognize it as a marriage, but why can’t the law? It’s just unfair and another prejudice.
Why would I want to read something that doesn’t believe same sex love is right? If two people are in love, more power to ’em! I’m happy for anyone that is in love, no matter what anyone else thinks of them.
Well, I’m gonna have to disagree with you there, Hal. I am very much opposed to gay marriage. I really don’t have time (nor am I sure I would like to) to get into why etc. tonight. I do realize it isn’t as obvious to many people what our opposition is. Patricia has the right idea in encouraging people to study the nature and meaning of human sexuality, but unfortunately I know exactly what those conversations digress into, and I just don’t want to go there tonight or for a while.
The main reason why there is such a push by the gay community for same-sex marriage is to “legitimize’ their lifestyle not because there is a real desire to commit to one person for a lifetime.
I’m outta here too. Going to watch a movie on the computer with the kids.
Hal: one last thought. Same-sex marriages are harmful to the people involved in them. Many are very abusive. Even poor Ellen Degeneres is not happy in hers.
These people, like the rest of us, were made for some thing better.
And Josephine two people “being in love” is not the be all and end of all of life on earth. Being in love does not make their love special or good. If I fell in love with Jill’s husband this would be a disordered love. Even if her husband returned my affections, the fact that we are both deeply in love (hypothetically speaking here, Jill!!) would not make this right.
Eileen, that is ridiculous. So for straight people, it’s because they want to commit for a lifetime. But for gay people, oh no.. they just want to feel legit? That comment makes me sick to my stomach, that there are people so naive and narrow minded.
Gay love and straight love are the exact same thing!
I feel bad for lesbians. They are always left out of the gay argument. I mean look you all have been talking about anal sex and why TOTB talks about why marriage between 2 men would be wrong.
Maybe south park was right, nobody cares about lesbos!
“Even poor Ellen Degeneres is not happy in hers.”
That’s a straight up lie and pile of poop.
I guess to older people love isn’t as special. Hmm, I’m going to have to remember to not let that happen to me. It must stink.
And yeah, it wasn’t the Christian church that stopped women from being treated like property. Far as I know, they were treated like property for centuries after Christianity was established, and Christianity was indeed used as a reason to get away with it.
One medieval handbook for nobles proposed the idea they could rape any peasant woman they want, because they were beneath them. I also seem to remember Victorian era marriages not bound because of love but because of social ties. Women were objects- this is all over literature. Check out Kate Chopin for instance.
The main reason why there is such a push by the gay community for same-sex marriage is to “legitimize’ their lifestyle not because there is a real desire to commit to one person for a lifetime.
Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 6, 2008 8:04 PM
most definitely this is the real agenda!
and Josephine, Ellen started whining two weeks after her “marriage” about how she wants a child and her partner doesnt….. good grief!
Actually, Josephine, just because you are upset doesn’t mean you have to take a “shot” at me.
Maybe when you are my age, you will have a little more wisdom…..maybe…. we can hope can’t we…..:-D
“TOTB talks about why marriage between 2 men would be wrong.”
Where was this said? It talks about principles that apply to both, not just the men.
Hal:
So God is not loving because he forbids same-sex between men and women?
Gee Hal, your guy won and you should be ecstatic. Why are you so bummed that God said no to homosexual marriage? Perhpas he loves Barack Obama enough so as to work on his wounded heart as well.
It is obvious that you cannot even comprehend what we are trying to say here.
God is the only one that can reach you Hal, but then again, only if you allow Him to. Give it up Hal.
You know Hal, when the D-Backs won the series in “01, the good feelings lasted about a week. But then, Curt Schilling was traded and reality set in.
Look, bask in your victory, but, as the glow wears off, turn to the only One who can give you an eternal glow, my beloved Savior, Jesus Christ.
Bobby:
Remember how God turned King Nebuchadnazzer’s heart? It was a miracle.
I will now be praying on a regular basis that God change and turn the heart of Barack Obama as he turned the heart of Pharoah.
Wouldn’t this be aswesome?
Hey Barack, if by chance you’re reading this blog, how about it? Read Psalm 139 for a start, then go on and read how John the Baptist leapt in Elizabeth’s womb upon the annoucement of the coming of the Savior.
Barck, babies are never punishments. In fact, the word says, children are a gift from the Lord.
Barack, I guarantee this. If you turn pro-life, you’ll get 70 percent of the vote next time including mine. How about it friend?
In reality I could care less about the economy because God will take care of a nation who seeks Him and follows His ways.
God be with you Barack and may you follow Him.
Hey Barack, this too. I’m going to work on Jill that she pray for you as well.
yes jordan: I also know of no way two women are naturally complementary either.
Sorry to disappoint you!
TOTB covers all: it’s about the human condition and I believe that covers both men AND women….
Have you ever been in a homosexual relationship? Then you probably don’t know why they want to get married. And, I’m sorry… but doesn’t that happen in straight relationships? One wants a child and the other doesn’t? Are those couples unhappy also? Nope, don’t think so. How did I take a “shot” at you? You seem to think gay love is different than straight love and it’s not. YOUR religious beliefs aren’t EVERYONE’S. Why would anyone want to come in between two people in love? To make people feel bad about themselves and their love?
That disgusts me. I think it’s obvious who here has ever had a gay friend. If you had, show them your comments here. I promise they wouldn’t be your friend anymore.
By the way, when Ellen got married it was completely legal. There is no reason to put it in quotes. She’s married. Not “married”.
“So God is not loving because he forbids same-sex between men and women?”
If that were true, then yes. Absolutely. God would be a petty ass if he denied legitimacy to his gay and lesbian creations.
So, this should probably be my last post. Assuming I get banned or something.
Bobby, thanks for declining my invitation into the fray. I’d rather leave as friends. Someday, perhaps with some age and the wisdom it brings, you will find room in your heart for your amazing faith and the rights of gay and lesbians. I believe, one day, you will see that there is no contradiction.
HisMan, I am ecstatic. But it’s tempered by real disgust with the bigotry, yes bigotry, of those who would deny marriage to gay and lesbian couples.
If half of what you said about Obama was true, how could you say this:
“Barack, I guarantee this. If you turn pro-life, you’ll get 70 percent of the vote next time including mine.”
You’d sell your down the drain for a pro-life president? Some patriot you are. Or, perhaps even you didn’t believe all the garbage thrown at our president-elect.
Patricia: ” Same-sex marriages are harmful to the people involved in them.” Some are, just like some of the “traditional” marriages are not so great. How’d yours turn out?
bye now.
I have met a few people who have left the gay lifestyle. Believe me, they experienced a lot of grief from this lifestyle.
And I might ask you Josephine, have you ever been in been in a same-sex relationship? What does it matter really?
And no, in Ellen’s mind she’s married but in reality she is not Josephine, not in any sense of what it means to be married.
If God only condones certain relationships, shouldn’t it be enough for the people in those relationships and for God to have faith in that?
Why should religious people have to use the government to tell everyone that they think they are better than those who don’t believe the same thing. I personally think that rather than making gay “marriage” legal, they should keep the government from using the word “marriage” for ANYONE. That way, churches can battle out who is right, and the people who don’t believe that it is a big deal won’t have to be “separate but ‘equal'”, 2nd class citizens.
Honestly, I think that religious doctrine will soon never again be enough for America to base its national decisions on. Seriously religious people are becoming enough of a minority that I think they will have to start focusing more on managing their own faith communities and not telling everyone else how to live. I think that’s what the Obama election tells us.
I just can’t understand why people would think that they can impose their religious beliefs on someone else.
If you define marriage as having “always” been between a man and a woman, you are really talking about church sanctified marriage. Throughout time, in diverse societies, same-sex couples have lived in conditions that we would recognize as being very similar to what we call marriage, in life-long partnerships. “Marriage” is just a word. If your church does not want to sanctify same-sex marriages, then fine. Why deny other people happiness?
hal: sorry to say this but you are a bad sport and a poor loser. Anyway, since you are leaving, you merely convince me that you too were a plant. Best wishes and I truly hope you open your heart to the truth.
And you are quite wrong about Bobby. Bobby has a very very good understanding of the order of the universe. He more than anyone fully understands why same-sex “marriage” simply cannot be.
She doesn’t share your religious views! She is MARRIED. It matters if you’ve been in a same sex relationship because, well, you pretend you know what they’re all about. I mean… how could you know unless you’ve been in one? I feel like I know what they’re like because I’m in a relationship, and I assume gay relationships are the same as straight relationships. At least, that’s what I’ve heard from gay friends. My best friend has a girlfriend and talks about her the same way I talk about my boyfriend.
If the people you know “left” the gay lifestyle they’re either a.) lying or b.) weren’t gay. I’m not sure I believe that you’ve actually known people that said that. Especially several of them.
Sorry, but it’s not anyone’s job to tell anyone else what religious beliefs to have and that’s ultimately what you want. The government shouldn’t have control over who is allowed to get married. I’m sure you’d be singing a different tune if the government wanted to impose some kind of law about.. I don’t know, if you get pregnant more than twice you have to abort? I bet you’d be ticked… it’s okay if the government restricts others, but not you?
Throughout time, in diverse societies, same-sex couples have lived in conditions that we would recognize as being very similar to what we call marriage, in life-long partnerships.
nonsense. Support this statement.same sex relationships are not mutally exclusive nor are they intended to be…
Josephine: it’s obvious that you can no longer post in a charitable manner. I wonder why it matters soo much to you…. We Christians have to be tolerant of liberal ideas but there is no tolerance for Christian ideals. Hmmmm…. very interesting….
Have a nice evening.
America allowing gay marriage shouldn’t be affected by Christian ideals, because, as I’ve said a million times, America isn’t a theocracy. I haven’t heard you be tolerant of liberal ideas one time, so what kind of liberal ideas do you “tolerate”? By your accounts, gays don’t want to get married to show a lifetime of commitment, they want to feel legit. Then, when they do get “married” (your quotes, not mine) they’re unhappy. Way to be tolerant. Really big thumbs up.
Americans have religious freedom. Christian views should not be imposed on anyone, and looking through this thread, I’m not the only person that thinks so. To deny gays the right to marriage is to deny religious freedom.
“same sex relationships are not mutally exclusive nor are they intended to be…”
Intended by whom?
In many indigenous societies, particularly tropical ones, there are no taboos against same-sex relationships. In ancient Greek society, citizens (male landowners) thought that true love could only exist between men. They thought that women had no souls, and were therefore only useful for producing children. Many women have lived together in love, pretending to only be friends.
Where is you support for your assertions?
Gosh, you RTLers are scary folks, especially when you think you are speaking for God.
I absolutely LOVE the way rightwingers fix their minds on a few verses taken out of context that someone told them was written by God Himself with his golden Bic pen and insist that their interpretation of those verses are the absolute, only way those verses can ever be understood.
“Two extensive studies published in the October 1999 issue of American Medical Association Archives of General Psychiatry confirmed the existence of a strong link between homosexuality and suicide, as well as other mental and emotional problems.
Youth who identify themselves as homosexual, lesbian and bisexual are four times more likely than their peers to suffer from major depression; three times more likely to suffer anxiety disorders, four times more likely to suffer conduct disorders, six times more likely to suffer from multiple disorders and more than six times more likely to have attempted suicide.
Many homosexual activists point their finger at homophobia as the cause of these disorders, but the most extensive studies have been done in the Netherlands and New Zealand where homosexuality is widely accepted.
In an interview with Zenit News, Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons, a child and adult psychiatrist in practice for more than 27 years, said, “Compared to controls who had no homosexual experience in the 12 months prior to the interviews, males who had any homosexual contact within that time period were much more likely to experience major depression, bipolar disorder, panic disorder, agoraphobia and obsessive compulsive disorder. Females with any homosexual contact within the previous 12 months were more often diagnosed with major depression, social phobia or alcohol dependence.”
He concluded by saying, “Men and women with a history of homosexual contact had a higher prevalence of nearly all psychiatric disorders measured in the study. These findings are the result of a lifestyle marked by rampant promiscuity and an inability to make commitments, combined with unresolved sadness, profound insecurity, anger and mistrust from childhood and adolescence.”
Physical Abuse
A recent study published in the American Journal of Public Health has shown that 39 percent of males with same-sex attraction have been abused by other homosexual men.
A study by Susan Turrell entitled “A descriptive analysis of Same-Sex Relationship Violence for a Diverse Sample,” and published in the Journal of Family Violence (vol 13, pp 281-293), found that relationship violence was a significant problem for homosexuals. Forty-four percent of gay men reported having experienced violence in their relationship; 13 percent reported sexual violence and 83 percent reported emotional abuse.
Levels of abuse ran even higher among lesbians with 55 percent reporting physical violence, 14 percent reporting sexual abuse and 84 percent reporting emotional abuse.
As outrageous as it might sound, “Most medical groups have embraced the homosexual agenda and are advocating that lifestyle despite all the scientific studies and medical evidence that demonstrate medical and psychological risks,” said Joseph Nicolosi, President of the National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality. “Homosexual activism and political correctness are clearly trumping science.”
How is supporting a lifestyle that causes so much physical, psychological and emotional suffering be compassionate or tolerant?
My last post was from “Health Risks of the Homosexual Lifestyle” by Susan Brinkmann
You could say motherhood or being in ANY relationship could cause physical, psychological, and/or emotional suffering.
Heck, doesn’t drinking alcohol cause some of those things?
Love is love. Who are you to tell someone who it’s okay to love?
Why should ANYOne have to live by someone ELSE’s faith??
Live and let live.
Josephine,
It is not love to want to put someone else at risk. Did you not read the scientific findings?
I do not think gay people are asking you to save them from themselves. They point here, I think, is why you people feel the need to impose your beliefs on someone else. Can anyone answer that?
The irony, that over half of BLACK pregnancies end in abortion in the US. Is IRONIC Jill, I hear you.
Amen and preach it Sister! You have to say what you feel, and not wishy-washy it down….Keep it up, you’re doing great! Don’t loose hope, if it were easy, it wouldn’t be worth doing.
On the whole married thing, uh I hate to break it to you but marriage is a ceremony, of a religious nature. Generally, religions that have rules, you know like christians, uh frown upon gay activities. I’m sorry, I know it’s shocking.
Catholics have a special name for marriage, a SACRAMENT. So, you see the desire to be “married” just like the Christians and Catholics would really sorta mean you had to uh, not be gay, otherwise it’s NOT marriage but blasphemy. It’s a religious union between two people a MAN and a WOMAN. Sorry, God said so. We copyrighted the term years ago.
So really what they are doing, is trying to force THEIR religious or nonreligious or cultural views or whatever on the MAJORITY of people, not the reverse.
Josephine :
“Gay love and straight love are the exact same thing! ”
Then why do we have to stamp our approval on it for gays to not feel “bad” about themselves lol. If they were right, they wouldn’t care what everyone else thought. I don’t care if you call my marriage that or civil union or whatever. I know what it is…
The anger and hateful statements just show that they DO feel bad about themselves. For the record, I don’t hate gay people, I just don’t approve of their lifestyle, or their definition of marriage.
Why do you people feel the need to impose you beliefs?
As it happens, my pastor does do same-sex marriage ceremonies. What do you think that means, Allena?
Some churches do in fact offer the sacrament of marriage – yes, Catholic – to gay men and women, just as they do to heterosexual couples. I belong to one, and among our community are several gay couples who are wonderful men and women and an asset to our church.
What the government needs to do is treat all citizens equally and let those churches who wish to extend the sacraments to gay couples do so while churches who elect not to do so refrain. That is the only fair way.
Why in God’s name would you quote such a hateful, hateful woman (re:QOTD)? What authority does she have? Why would you want to associate with her? Shame…
Good question, Eileen.
Why do rightwinger Christians feel the need to impose their beliefs on the society at large, when that society is made up of many who are not Christian at all??
Awwwww!!!! Look at the cute little picture of the cute little babies and their cute little blankets and squishy faces and scrunchy eyes and cute baby-ness! *insert baby talk*
Josephine, Janine, and Rebecca,
What I am trying to point out is that your compassion, while admirable, is misdirected. I don’t hate people with same-sex tendencies but I am not going to advocate a lifestyle that is clearly unhealthy in so many respects.
Allena: You say “I hate to break it to you but marriage is a ceremony, of a religious nature.” but we’re talking about law. Not religion. No one is trying to make it that Catholic priests have to marry two women against the priests will. However, it should be LEGAL for that to happen.
Eileen, it’s hilarious that you’d ask why we feel the need to impose our beliefs simply because we say gay people should have the same rights as straight people. Oh, and yes, I did read your “findings” but… is that true of ALL gay relationships? I know quite a few hetero relationships that sound like they cause more problems than that.
Eileen, don’t advocate a lifestyle (and it’s an orientation, not a chosen lifestyle). No one is asking you to do so.
Just let the government be blind to religion and fair to all citizens.
Look, obviously, reason is not going to change your mind.
No one wants you to advocate a lifestyle you do not believe in. What we want is for you to stop trying to impose your religious beliefs on others.
It is not your job to intrude into someone elses’ life and decide if you think that life is healthy. No one asked you to, and you do not belong there.
Janine 9:05: Janine, you are so silly. Every good Christian lives completely literally by the Bible. Good thing too, with sensible rules like this one:
If two men are fighting and the wife of one of them comes to rescue her husband from his assailant, and she reaches out and seizes him by his private parts, you shall cut off her hand. Show her no pity. (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)
:)
wtf? That’s my question? People say that they interpret the Bible literally. The Bible says all sorts of things that people don’t do, another one being Ecclesiastes 9:8, which instructs that all clothes be white. Why pick and choose to serve one’s purposes? Furthermore, if you were to take the Bible COMPLETELY literally, “be fruitful and multiply” would mean something waaaaaaaay different.
Josephine,
My point is that anyone who is currently posting is imposing their beliefs or asserting their opinions. Why is it okay for you to do so but not for anyone else who is not of the same opinion?
LOL Leah.
Well, I’m in Canada, so I’ll be sure to get my slaves from the USA! God says it’s ok, after all. Think I’ll pick Republicans…
What?! Talking about something is NOT the same as legislating away a right!
Eileen #2: Do you know why homosexual individuals have higher rates of suicide? Because they have higher rates of depression? Why do they have higher rates of depression? Because they have people telling them they are wrong, that they’re sick, that they’re disgusting, that they’re going to Hell, that they’re abominations, and that they deserve to get AIDS.
Now, I’m not saying that you said this, but this is definitely the mindset in our country towards homosexual individuals- and with those kinds of attitudes reflected at them, often by people they know (ie parents, grandparents, peers, etc)- I don’t blame them one bit for being depressed and suicidal because people hate them for something as frivolous as their sexual orientation.
“It is not your job to intrude into someone elses’ life and decide if you think that life is healthy. No one asked you to, and you do not belong there.”
Posted by: Rebecca at November 6, 2008 9:32 PM
It is not just my opinion, Rebecca, it is the result of scientific research.
Dear Eileen,
There is a major difference between expressing your opinion in an open forum and imposing your belief system via law on the entire state/nation.
You can believe whatever you want to believe, but when you funnel huge sums of money to spread disinformation to scare people into enshrining discrimination into your constitution, that is a vastly different matter.
Anon is me.
Again, I do not expect you to agree with me, I just want you people to STOP trying to impose your beliefs on others. By “impose” I mean deny, by law, people the right to marry, love and live with whom they choose.
Eileen, that scientific research is flawed and has been discredited by everybody but the rightwingers.
This is the problem with being part of the rightwing. Everyone but your posse is automatically anti-God, anti-Christian, etc. etc. That kind of thinking blinds you to what the rest of the world calls reason.
Don’t forget that our Barack was also born in Kenya! He’s not a natural born citizen by all accounts. Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden may end up as President. What a country!
“Many homosexual activists point their finger at homophobia as the cause of these disorders, but the most extensive studies have been done in the Netherlands and New Zealand where homosexuality is widely accepted.”
Above is for Rae.
I don’t HAVE a belief on the subject. Love is love, that’s alllll I think of it. I don’t think ANY love is right OR wrong. I don’t feel anything towards it, just like I don’t care about straight couples. I’m neither for nor against same sex couples, just as I’m neither for/against straight couples. You’ve made it clear you’re against gay couples and you don’t want them to have the same rights as you. That’s basically what you’re saying.. isn’t it? If I’m wrong, please correct me. I wouldn’t want to say something false about you. That’s how I’m interpreting what you’re saying though.
No, hon. He was born in Hawaii; his daddy was born in Kenya. Crack a book.
Janine,
Discredited by whom?
Janine: I’m in Canada as well. However, as a US citizen, do you think I am allowed to capture Americans as slaves? I mean, I am here indefinitely, but I’m not Canadian, per se… would do you think?
God really should clarify this sort of thing.
“Don’t forget that our Barack was also born in Kenya!”
Huh? Obama was born in Hawaii.. I’m pretty sure that’s America? And… uh, did you mean to post that in a different thread?
Josephine,
You say that all you care about is love, Then why do you support a lifestyle that brings about suffering for most of the people who engage in it?
Eileen #2 you are inventing stuff. You have nooooo way of knowing that.
@Eileen #2: Is that from the article you initially posted?
Eileen… how do you know MOST people suffer? I just think you’re making up facts now. I know gay couples, and they seem happy when their relationships are good and sad when they’re bad… just like every other couple. I mean, we’re not talking about a foreign species…
Rae,
Yes. It is from an article by Susan Brinkmann, “Health Risks of the Homosexual Lifestyle”
@Eileen: I did read the article you posted. And to be honest, I’m not really interested in continuing this line of discussion, if that is okay.
The bias of that book is right there in the title.
That’s fine, Rae. Since it is digressing into insults, it is probably just as well to end it.
Josephine,
She cites the CDC and even a NY Times article.
The NY times isn’t bias? Didn’t every Republican think it was biased when the NY times loved Obama? But when talking about homosexuality… they aren’t bias?
Just because the sources are credible doesn’t mean they are without bias.
Josephine! The NY Times is hardly a conservative paper!
Good night everyone — peace and blessings…
It’s not just conservatives that are against gay marriage. California is hardly a conservative state but prop 8 passed.
It appears that the Journal of Family Violence does not employ the same methodology of, say, the Journal of the AMA or the American Psychiatric Association. Case studies are not the same thing as reputable studies that can be replicated. JFV is not abstracted by the major scholarly arms that I could find but is part of a little family of publishers that support each other, abstract each other’s work, and so on.
Say I get a business license and begin the Canadian Journal of Psychiatric Practice. I am not too picky about what I print, so Billybob comes to me with an article that says heterosexuals are predisposed to bigotry based on tribal cell memory. That would give Billybob an appearance of legitimacy…
Every thread I followed for FJV led back to the same publishing group but I only took a few minutes to research it. I was surprised that NO major organization had referenced articles from FJV.
Wow, Leah – US citizen in Canada…Let’s see, you may only take your slaves from *neighbouring* countries…so….
Can’t take a Canadian slave since you’re in Canada…and you can’t take an American slave since you can’t enslave your own people. And you can’t enslave a person from Mexico since Mexico isn’t neighbour to Canada where you live.
Poor you, Leah. I think you’ll have to do your own dishes.
Maybe I can get Sarah…she can do my personal shopping and so on and from my house she’ll be able to see the US, so that’ll for sure clarify for her the duties of VP. You betcha! ;)
Words and definitions
Babies are babies from conception till after delivery
Lesbians with natural born babies are called bastards
Gay males are not known to give birth
Foetus in latin is defined as offspring. Non medical people say it is no longer a fetus when it is born
Homosexuality is an abomination
Homophobia has never been found. It is imaginary.
The contribution to the death of a child after delivery is infanticide. Irregardless if the mother wants the baby or prefers to have had an abortion.
Assisted death of an unborn baby is also infanticide.
People that do not validate your carnal attitudes are called bigots.
Jill Stanek is a saint
“Homophobia has never been found. It is imaginary”
Wow. Won’t all those gay people that got beat to death be relieved…! Homophobia doesn’t exist, they got beat to death for a legit reason!
I’m trying to follow your reasoning, xxpc.
A fertilized egg is a baby? We’ve been having scrambled babies for breakfast?? *confused*
So a lesbian who gives birth is a bastard? Not a mommy? *confused*
A- for the gay male thing; heterosexual males are also not known to give birth.
Fetus is UNBORN offspring, btw. You are not a fetus because you been borned, hon.
I think you need a real dictionary, xxpc. Or someone to explain things to you b/c your reasoning is twisted all over the place.
Homosexuality is a naturally occurring variation of sexual orientation. It is not an abomination nor is it abnormal any more than red hair, a naturally occurring variation of hair colour, is an abomination or abnormal.
However, in some cultures, variations of hair colour or handedness have been viewed as signs of demonic possession.
“As it happens, my pastor does do same-sex marriage ceremonies. What do you think that means, Allena?”
Rebecca, that would mean your “Pastor” missed a LOT of the Bible, maybe you should read it. You missed a BUNCH of important issues that could be a big part of salvation.. Take notes while you’re at it, because it’s very clear on this issue.
“Some churches do in fact offer the sacrament of marriage – yes, Catholic – to gay men and women, just as they do to heterosexual couples.”
Sorry, that is not Catholic, that would be pretend Catholic, or something else weird. The Catholic church has stood fast that homosexuals can not have a sacramental marriage or any other type of marriage. The catechism, read it, and you’ll see I’m right, and you’re wrong. If you go to a Roman Catholic church and they do gay marriages, well then we would call that heresy…not tolerance, and it is NOT sanctioned by Rome. Sorry, get the facts straight, the Catholic Church (as in the Universal Church) does not recognize gay marriage.
“Why do you people feel the need to impose you beliefs?”
Ok, if MORE people believe one way, and LESS people believe another way, then how is it that it is wrong for the majority to “impose” their “beliefs” on the minority, but not wrong for the minority to impose their beliefs on the majority? Don’t you see that you are doing that very thing, by trying to force legislation to recognize something the majority doesn’t want to recognize?
Your logic is so flawed it’s a simple matter refute your arguments.
“but we’re talking about law. Not religion. No one is trying to make it that Catholic priests have to marry two women against the priests will. However, it should be LEGAL for that to happen.”
Well, a Priest cannot, whether he wants to or not marry two members of the same sex. Catholic marriage is different, than what you keep saying it is.
A Catholic marriage, is an agreement, between a man and woman, and when they make this agreement under the correct circumstances, then God, creates a union, making two into one…The Priest merely witnesses it, and notes it down for records. Point of fact, Catholics without access to a church may marry themselves, until they may get to a Priest later. So your whole argument not only reveals your lack of knowledge in Catholic dogma, but also the fact that you don’t want “marriage” but a stamp of approval on your lifestyle.
Besides, if a Priest does this, nobody will get arrested. But the Church doesn’t recognize that as a valid marriage. It isn’t illegal, just immoral, nobody gets arrested for their mock marriage ceremonies.
You just can’t stand it that there are more of us than you. You know, maybe someday you will have the majority, and then we’ll have to be the mad ones, having your beliefs imposed on us, but not today.
I like this one: The contribution to the death of a child after delivery is infanticide. Irregardless if the mother wants the baby or prefers to have had an abortion.
That would make every murder an infanticide, wouldn’t it?
“Wow. Won’t all those gay people that got beat to death be relieved…! Homophobia doesn’t exist, they got beat to death for a legit reason! ”
It is called murder. Murder is murder whether it is a 7 month pre born or a 17 year old that abuses his genitals.
by the way, has anyone ever spoken with a gay that was beaten to death to take a note how they felt? Killing someone that is unarmed is hate, not fear. This is an abortion blog. what is the phobia behind killing the unborn? It isn’t beating but it is a currette suction weapon.
I’m not sure what anything you said had to do with my comment… and, I actually had a biology class with a boy last year that was beaten to death. I wasn’t friends with him, but I had spoken to him a couple times in class. We were lab partners once. I have gay friends who were not only sickened by what happened, but scared. It was a hate crime. But why would you hate homosexuality unless you were scared of it?
I won’t even pretend to understand most of what you said though. Uhhh will you explain?
by the way, has anyone ever spoken with a gay that was beaten to death to take a note how they felt?
wtf?
Here Janine, let me try and help you:
“I’m trying to follow your reasoning, xxpc.
A fertilized egg is a baby? We’ve been having scrambled babies for breakfast?? *confused*”
-A fertilized egg, is indeed the beginnings of a unique individual, not breakfast. If this is your breakfast, then you have issues. Actually most medical textbooks say that life begins at conception, so this is really just a moot point –
So a lesbian who gives birth is a bastard? Not a mommy? *confused*
-Well, bastard technically means that the father doesn’t give the child his name, so yes this would be technically true.
A- for the gay male thing; heterosexual males are also not known to give birth.
-Thank God, the species would have died off with Adam.
Fetus is UNBORN offspring, btw. You are not a fetus because you been borned, hon.
“Foetus in latin is defined as offspring. Non medical people say it is no longer a fetus when it is born”
She didn’t say fetus, she said Foetus, you used the wrong dictionary, you need the LATIN one. Deo Gratias!
I think you need a real dictionary, xxpc. Or someone to explain things to you b/c your reasoning is twisted all over the place.
-hmm, I understood, and yet you’re the one who said they were confused.
Homosexuality is a naturally occurring variation of sexual orientation. It is not an abomination nor is it abnormal any more than red hair, a naturally occurring variation of hair colour, is an abomination or abnormal.
-HA HA HA HA HA I have red hair. You know, this would be really cool, if you could just throw me a bone and give a site to a scientific study that shows this to be definitively true in all cases.
However, in some cultures, variations of hair colour or handedness have been viewed as signs of demonic possession.
WOW, this is really ironic, you aren’t even from here, you must be from Canada or England, Australia, so this whole argument is really none of your business- we spell it “color” here in the States :D
ROFL you aren’t even American and you are trying to “impose your ideas” on us ROFL!!!
Allena…the Roman Catholic church is not the only flavour of Catholic church. The Anglican church, the Orthodox churches, the Old Catholic churches – just to name a few – are all equally Catholic as Rome. This is why Rome accepts the confirmations and ordinations and baptisms performed by our bishops and priests, some of whom are – hang on – women. *g* And they’re Catholic priests…with valid orders, sacraments and apostolic succession recognized by Rome.
So, sorry to disappoint, but we are not pretend Catholics – at least not to Rome. (A thorn in Benny’s side, yes, but pretend Catholic, no.)
And since you mention the Bible, let’s remember that the church PREDATES the Bible and in fact chose which books belonged in it…and then decided no, some of them should be kicked out…and then put some others in…and took out a few… But that’s the Bible, and it’s sure the whole and completely inerrant word of the One and Eternal God…it just took them a few hundred years to figure out which words were inerrant…
That stoning the women part…not sure why that’s still there…but inerrant, absolutely. Get your rocks here~!
Let’s be serious for a moment. Religion doesn’t belong in a discussion of law. The government doesn’t legislate religion, Catholic or otherwise.
I love your line about Rebecca’s logic being so flawed. Cute.
What you might have missed back in the day when you were in school – oh, please please be homeschooled! – is the fact that the US has three branches of government to apply the checks and balances system, remember?
Why, do you think, the forefathers felt a need for checks and balances?
Could it be…that they didn’t want the will of the majority to take precedence over the rights of the minority? Could it be that they recognized that the will of the majority, when that majority believed that black people were second-class citizens and women were too ignorant to vote, might need to be tempered with … oh, I don’t know…maybe…JUSTICE?????
And justice is what we are talking about here. Heterosexual American citizens have the right to marry, share property, bequeath it, etc. Homosexual American citizens deserve the same rights.
Now, if the government wants to skip marrying people and only give civil unions…and let the churches do the marrying of whoever each church thinks is ok to marry…that would be fair.
But for the government to marry some but not others is not. Used to be the government would not allow people of differing races to marry…but it wasn’t fair, and the judicial system came into play to extend marriage rights to bi-racial couples.
Now is time to extend the same civil rights to gay couples. Fair is fair.
I’m not sure what anything you said had to do with my comment… and, I actually had a biology class with a boy last year that was beaten to death. I wasn’t friends with him, but I had spoken to him a couple times in class. We were lab partners once. I have gay friends who were not only sickened by what happened, but scared. It was a hate crime. But why would you hate homosexuality unless you were scared of it?
I won’t even pretend to understand most of what you said though. Uhhh will you explain?
Posted by: Josephine at November 6, 2008 10:39 PM
You are confusing emotions. Normal people are also afraid when homicide happens. Hating something that normal people find repulsive doesn’t cause fear. Sorry but gays do not define the behavioral sciences. In the DSM-IV homosexuality, bestiality, paedophilia and other behaviors are grouped as paraphilias. illnesses.
They are anti social behaviors.
She’s not from America so she can’t take part in this discussion? And you guys call Obama an elitist? Woooo doggie… talk about some hypocrisy.
xppc, that is outright false. The DSM-IV says no such thing about homosexuality.
Homosexuals are anti-social behaviors? Uhm… even the flamboyant ones? I have no idea what you’re talking about, still. You’re making it sound like gay people aren’t the same as straight people? I don’t understand, still.
“Hating something that normal people find repulsive doesn’t cause fear. ”
What are you talking about? Fear causes hate of things you’re not use to.
Allena, Allena, Allena…We will know you are Christian by your love, all right! You betcha! ;)
Foetus is unborn offspring, Allena. Crack a book.
You have red hair, lol? LOLOLOL Please be left-handed too…
I am originally from the US but moved here when I married a Canadian. I like it very much, actually. Cold, though.
Our present DSM-IV does not include homosexuality per se as a disorder, sorry. That was eliminated back in the 70s I think.
Marriage in America is fair to all. All unmarried adult males can marry an adult unmarried female. How equal can it be?
Obama’s daddy married more than 1 woman at one time. Not legal. The highest court has allowed states to set regulations and definitions. President Clinton signed a Defense of marriage Act. We can all follow the law. If you want to change the law, file a legal petition. If it passes, you have it.
From the Family Research Council:
“Marriage Appeal Is Universal
Not everyone was as jubilant about the gains for marriage as FRC and our supporters. This morning, FOX News posted photo after photo of the anti-family rioting in Los Angeles (where a majority of voters actually voted “yes” on Proposition 8), Hollywood, Santa Monica, and San Francisco. Hundreds of protestors spilled out into the street last night, blocking traffic, and, in one incident, climbing atop a police car. “…[A]bout 500 [demonstrators] gathered near CNN’s Los Angeles bureau, where they were seen banging on the doors and walls, causing the [L.A.] police Department to declare a tactical alert. …Several others were arrested…” With nearly all of the votes counted, Proposition 8 leads by more than a half million votes (52.5% to 47.5%). Even though there are an estimated three million mail and provisional ballots, none of the local officials expect the outcome to change. Members of the “No on 8” campaign are shocked and distressed, but San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom (who famously declared that “gay marriage is here whether you like it or not!”) said he is “hopeful” the courts will overturn the people’s will. To that effect, three separate lawsuits have been filed in California courts, all challenging the validity of Proposition 8. Once again, homosexual extremists are turning to their place of preference for creating public policy-the courts. The nation’s voice has long been a casualty of this powerful alliance between judicial activists and the radical Left. For years, liberals have used the courts to impose their agenda on Americans when the people or legislature refused.
On this issue, however, democracy has spoken. From every corner of California, Florida, and Arizona, voters proved that marriage crosses demographic lines-even party lines, in some cases. The attachment to marriage and its meaning is deeply rooted in the African-American, Latino, Asian, and white communities. And exit polling proved it. In the Golden State, where Newsom is trying to invalidate voters’ decision on marriage, Proposition 8 proved to be a moral mandate from every race, every sex, and all income levels. Although minorities overwhelmingly supported Barack Obama, seven in 10 black voters and 53% of Hispanics propelled Proposition 8 to victory. Men and women were equally supportive, as were people aged 35 and above. Nor did it matter what the household income was. In a survey of 2,240 voters, the richest and poorest of California were separated in their support for marriage by only one percentage point!
The same trends continue in Arizona on Proposition 102. Both sexes voted for marriage (57% of men and 55% of women); Latinos and whites were equally supportive (at 55% apiece); and even the generational gap was slight (49% of 18-24-year-olds voted to preserve marriage, compared to 55-57% among 30-64-year-olds). Down in Florida, where Amendment 2 rocketed past the 60% approval it needed, males and females were again equally supportive (63% of men and 62% of women) and, in California-like fashion, the support of Latinos (64%) and blacks pushed the ban (71%) over the top. Even Florida Republicans (83%), Democrats (47%), and Independents (56%) combined their support to prove that marriage is a non-partisan issue. In the state where marriage needed them most, even a majority of young people voted to protect marriage (52% of 18-24-year-olds), providing the backing the amendment needed to pass.
Protecting marriage means so much to so many Americans that people across the country gave more to the fight for Proposition 8 than they ever had in the history of a social issues campaign. In hard economic times, their sacrifices, so powerfully illustrated in the story of the Patterson family, are what made this victory possible. “On Oct. 13… the Sacramento Bee ran a remarkable story about Rick and Pam Patterson, a Mormon couple of modest means – he drives a 10-year-old Honda Civic, she raises their five boys-who had withdrawn $50,000 from their savings account and given it to the pro-8 campaign. ‘It was a decision we made very prayerfully,’ Pam Patterson, 48, told the Bee’s Jennifer Garza. ‘Was it an easy decision? No. But it was a clear decision, one that had so much potential to benefit our children and their children.'”
Praise to our God in Heaven, Almighty and Forever, Praise Him, Praise Him, Bless His Holy Name.
Obama’s daddy lived in Kenya. Uhm…. perfectly legal there. :)
And, as you can see, the initiative to make gay marriage legal failed. You’re missing the point of our discussion: the fact that gay marriage is even an ISSUE is wrong because the idea that marriage is between one man and one woman is a Christian belief, and since America is not a theocracy, laws should not be instated simply because of Christian values. That takes away freedom of religion. It’s forcing Christian beliefs on gay people.
The Family Research Council, lol. Now there’s an unbiased organization! :D
I’ll see your Praise Him and raise you two Blessed Be to the Goddesses…
If protecting marriage were so important to Americans and Christians, you’d think they’d be fighting the evils of divorce…which actually DOES have an impact on Christian families, unlike same-sex marriages.
Janine.. you have a good point.
If gay marriage is on ballots, what would you say if divorce were on ballots. You know, outlawing divorce.
Janine:
Most people don’t want to get divorced.
But like homosexuality, satan is continually attacking marriage with divorce because he knows how destructive divorce is to society and to children.
But, we all know how much satan loves the little children don’t we?
I mean, look at what it’s done to you.
You think killing innocent children in the womb is OK and that anal sex is a good thing. That means you have a reprobate mind. Look it up.
Janine:
In the poker games I play in, we aren’t allowed to use counterfiet money. It’s just not a manly thing to do.
You’re right – it’s mostly married heterosexual people who want to get divorced.
Man, and I use the term loosely, you don’t know where I stand on abortion, so don’t demonstrate your ignorance. All you know is that I have no problem with the state allowing gay people the same civil rights as heterosexual people.
As for anal sex, last I heard, it’s not just for homosexuals anymore. I am not really interested what others do in their bedrooms; it’s not something I consider.
I’d be careful who I called reprobate. That sounds suspiciously like judgement and golly, I think Jesus Christ the Only Son of the EverLiving God suggested that it wasn’t a smart thing for folks on earth to do. Apparently worshipping him and obeying him are two very different things. I hear he’s a forgiving kind of fella, lucky for you.
In any event, thank you, I’m not given up to wickedness, lolol. At least, not since I was ordained a deacon in my church, lolol.
Here’s the thing, for me: the churches do not agree on what is permissible with regard either to abortion or homosexuality. Therefore, the not judging suggestion makes good sense to me. Believe what you wish, but allow the other churches – Christian among the rest – to teach what their faith holds as holy and right.
The issues get confused when people want to impose their church’s belief system onto a society as diverse as ours.
The answer, as our forefathers so brilliantly saw, was to keep church out of government. Therefore, let the laws be enacted based on civil rights and freedoms and the best scientific evidence possible and let the churches teach whatever they hold as truth.
Of course, there is that nasty control issue that rears its ugly, unmanly head now and again.
Anyway, it’s nearly 1 a.m. here, thank you all for the fun. I thoroughly enjoyed the banter et al. No hard feelings, eh?
(Allena – however you spell it – ‘eh’ is Canadian for ‘huh.’ ;))
Janine… I want to give you a hug. Goodnight. :)
“You’re missing the point of our discussion: the fact that gay marriage is even an ISSUE is wrong because the idea that marriage is between one man and one woman is a Christian belief, and since America is not a theocracy, laws should not be instated simply because of Christian values. That takes away freedom of religion. It’s forcing Christian beliefs on gay people.”
You’re missing the point of our discussion: the fact that murder is even an ISSUE is wrong because the idea that ‘not to murder’ is a Christian belief, and since America is not a theocracy, laws should not be instated simply because of Christian values. That takes away freedom of religion. It’s forcing Christian beliefs on murderers.
You’re missing the point of our discussion: the fact that theft is even an ISSUE is wrong because the idea that ‘do not steal’ is a Christian belief, and since America is not a theocracy, laws should not be instated simply because of Christian values. That takes away freedom of religion. It’s forcing Christian beliefs on theives.
“If gay marriage is on ballots, what would you say if divorce were on ballots. You know, outlawing divorce.”
liberals are the ones who gave us ‘no fault’ divorce.
I am flabbergasted and disgusted that Prop 8 has passed in CA. I can’t believe how people can deny committed same-sex couples an equal right to marriage and the benefits of marriage. I find it horrible that because they cannot get married, long-term, committed same-sex couples cannot visit each other freely in the hospital, won’t get benefits that other couples do.
My take on it is this: abolish “marriage” from the legal aspect of things. Have the government issue “civil unions” with the exact same rights to all consenting adult pairs wanting to commit to each other. The “marriage” ceremony part can be held at a church of the couple’s choosing.
This really is ironic…
The facists are taking over:
Ahead of a widely-expected crackdown on free speech and political dissent by the incoming Obama administration, our Dear Leader has appointed a new FCC transition czar to oversee the process.
Henry Rivera, a longtime radical leftist, lawyer and former FCC commissioner, is expected to lead the push to dismantle commercial talk radio that is favored by a number of Democratic Party senators. Rivera will play a pivotal role in preventing critics from having a public voice during Obama’s tenure in office.
Rivera, who resigned from the FCC nearly a quarter-century ago during the Reagan years, believes in a doctrine of “communications policy as a civil rights issue”.
His exit during the Reagan Administration paved the way for the Fairness Doctrine’s repeal when the late president appointed Patricia Diaz Dennis in 1986 to fill out the rest of Rivera’s term. Had this not occurred, talk radio as we know it today would not exist.
http://radioequalizer.blogspot.com/2008/11/obama-appoints-radical-media-activist.html
Allena…the Roman Catholic church is not the only flavour of Catholic church. The Anglican church, the Orthodox churches, the Old Catholic churches – just to name a few – are all equally Catholic as Rome. This is why Rome accepts the confirmations and ordinations and baptisms performed by our bishops and priests, some of whom are – hang on – women. *g* And they’re Catholic priests…with valid orders, sacraments and apostolic succession recognized by Rome.
So, Janine, is no longer an American citizen and according to SEVERAL councils of the Catholic church NOT Catholic, yet here she is, getting nasty and insulting to me personally (like I care).
The Catholic Church recognizes any batisim, by anyone, as long as it follows the formula. I assure you though that Anglican and churches you mention are not accepted by Rome, neither are they under Romes direction. Catholic means universal Church ie, under the direction of Rome.
You don’t have a real argument, so you have to make personal attacks, call names and lie.
Gee, your convincing ME.
My take on it is this: abolish “marriage” from the legal aspect of things. Have the government issue “civil unions” with the exact same rights to all consenting adult pairs wanting to commit to each other. The “marriage” ceremony part can be held at a church of the couple’s choosing.
Posted by: Stephanie at November 7, 2008 12:35 AM
this IS exactly where society is heading.
Donald DeMarco (Professor of Philosophy) prophesied 10 years ago this would happen.
However, it will not happen because people want same-sex “marriages”. It will happen because companies will no longer be able to afford to pay benefits to all these “couples”. It will be impossible to sort out things because people will take advantage of this. Therefore, no one will get anything. This will not hurt same-sex couples as the majority do not have children. It will of course hurt regular married couples with families who will now be the ones discriminated against.
These families will find it increasingly difficult. But isn’t that what this is all about – social engineering to change our notions about motherhood, families, sex etc.
It is nothing short of diabolical.
actually Allena,
If a person who was Raised Mormon or Jehovah Witness wants to become Catholic, their baptism is considered invalid in their previous church. They would have to be baptized.
And I’ve never heard of my Catholic church accepting women priests from other faiths. It is true there are a few Anglican or other faith male ministers that have been given special permission to become Catholic Priests after their conversion and be married, but those exceptions are special exceptions.
Female ordinations are not recognized.
Exactly, Liz. JPII put an end to this question once and for all in his Apostolic Letter ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS.
In order for a sacrament to be valid, one must have proper matter and use proper form. The proper matter in the case of the sacrament of Holy Orders is a male (among other conditions). So it is impossibly to validly ordain a woman to the priesthood.
Liz: as far as I know any women who were “ordained” priests were excommunicated.
and this statement by Janine:
The Anglican church, the Orthodox churches, the Old Catholic churches – just to name a few – are all equally Catholic as Rome. is incorrect. High Anglican is close to Catholic as for “Old Catholic” I’ve never heard the term before.
Some churches do in fact offer the sacrament of marriage – yes, Catholic – to gay men and women, just as they do to heterosexual couples. I belong to one, and among our community are several gay couples who are wonderful men and women and an asset to our church.
This comment is also disturbing. I know of NO legitimate Catholic church that “marries” same-sex partners. Which church do you belong to Janine?
“as far as I know any women who were “ordained” priests were excommunicated.”
Yes. Just recently, it was decided that anyone who participates in a “woman’s ordination” is excommunicated Latae sententiae.
thanks for the info Bobby. No doubt the “proper matter” being male will send some into a tizzy….hehehe
If you’re reading only what Rome puts out, you’ll only know what Rome wants you to know. Rome can excommunicate anyone from their church, but they cannot take God from anyone, nor can they take way the validity of the sacraments or orders or apostolic succession once validly conferred. This is why our confirmations are accepted by the local diocese, to their chagrin. We are progressive Catholics, and we have no problem with other forms of Catholicism, despite their regard of us. Rome acknowledges our orders as valid but irregular in a nod to the fact that we are not under Rome nor have we been since the Pope crowned himself infallible. *s*
There are lots of Catholic churches besides the Roman one (and lots of diversity within the Roman church as well, though Benny is working hard to stifle it). Whether Rome gives any of them it’s stamp of approval has no bearing on their validity in God’s eyes.
OK, whatever.
“However, it will not happen because people want same-sex “marriages”.”
They still can have marriages. Just legally, they will have a civil union recognized by the government. Marriage will be a personal thing (as it ought to be). Some people need to learn to compromise.
“It will happen because companies will no longer be able to afford to pay benefits to all these “couples”. It will be impossible to sort out things because people will take advantage of this. Therefore, no one will get anything.”
Umm…it’s not like heterosexual people don’t take advantage of marriage nowadays. I know people who got married to help their friends get green cards. Does that mean we should stop heterosexual couples from getting marriages, because of the actions of few bad eggs?
“This will not hurt same-sex couples as the majority do not have children.”
Same-sex couples don’t have children because they AREN’T ALLOWED TO ADOPT THEM in most places, not because they don’t want any.
“It will of course hurt regular married couples with families who will now be the ones discriminated against. These families will find it increasingly difficult.”
I don’t see how, please clarify. Heterosexual couples will still get the same benefits and civil rights, and they can still have their marriage. It’s not bad to separate the legal aspect of things and the emotional aspect of things so everyone can have equal rights.
Thank you, Benny.
I think what often gets overlooked in discussions is that people who believe otherwise are just like you – people trying to do the best they can with the light they are given. The fact that their light is different from other lights doesn’t make them the enemy, just folks with a different understanding.
If only we could get over the idea that the laws of the country must reflect our own vision!
Then the government could give civil unions and thereby treat all couples equally under the law.
The churches would each operate within their own teachings regarding marriage.
I don’t understand why some people refuse to be satisfied with such an arrangement.
Janine,
In other words, the country must reflect your vision? When everyone operates under their own particular moral code then chaos ensues.
I know there are other RITES of the Catholic Church, but as far as I know, most of them are on good terms with the Pope.
I happen to know that Eastern Rite Catholics can have married clergy (MALES ONLY) but I can’t remember how it works — married first or can’t be married after you’re ordained.
Bobby and Patricia: Keep the Faith! Remember that Jesus said “Blessed are those who are Persecuted all because of Me”
I’m quite shocked and disappointed at the tone of the comments on this thread. I thought this was a blog to discuss viewpoints on abortion, not a kitchen-sink depository to unveil every possible cliched, stereotypical, antiquated and might I say, frightening point of view from the far religious right. I have bit my lip and contributed many times to this blog with a contrary viewpoint, because I found that I could have a reasonable debate with the other side, but this is something different.
In over 100+ responses, I’ve read comparisons to gay people and pedophiles or rapists, that their physical make-up proves their relationships could never be sanctioned by God, that Barack Obama is a secret immigrant faking his citizenship and that Satan is the reason behind the dissolution of marriage.
I’m struggling and flabbergasted by the amount of jaw-dropping ignorance. I write this to the board vs. responding to anyone individually, because frankly, I don’t have anything positive or respectful to respond back with. I am truly disgusted by what I am witnessing today.
My only position on the argument that’s taken over this thread is: I am confident that Prop 8 in CA will be overturned by a higher court and although I am not a CA citizen, I will help in any way I can to see that this happens. I feel sorry that those on this board who so vehemently oppose this movement, don’t realize how far away they are from being on the right side of history. The gay rights ‘agenda’ as you call it is ignited, and it’s never going away, as much as you would pray for this. I hope that our new president will help faciliate this evolution, as well.
I’ll be back when the group is ready to talk about women, health and abortion.
n their manuscript, After the Ball: How America Will Conquer Its Fear and Hatred of Gays in the 90’s (1989, Doubleday/Bantam), Harvard educated marketing experts Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen meticulously laid out the homosexual lobby’s blueprint for success in what is widely regarded as the handbook for the “gay” agenda.
They devised a three-pronged approach that the homosexual lobby has masterfully implemented in subsequent years: Desensitization, Jamming and Conversion.
Kirk and Madsen summarized their approach this way:
• Portray gays as victims, not as aggressive challengers.
• Give potential protectors a just cause.
• Make gays look good.
• Make victimizers look bad.
Anon is me again. Sorry!
RE: In other words, the country must reflect your vision? When everyone operates under their own particular moral code then chaos ensues.
Posted by: Eileen #2 at November 7, 2008 11:13 AM
OMG, Eileen, are you serious? That sounds like the Taliban talking. Jesus didn’t try to prevent others from operating under their particular moral code; he taught and let those who chose to follow another way do so.
Gotta get to work.
“Jamming” refers to the public smearing of Christians, traditionalists or anyone else who opposes the “gay” agenda. “Jam homo-hatred (i.e., disagreement with homosexual behaviors) by linking it to Nazi horror,” wrote Kirk and Madsen. “Associate all who oppose homosexuality with images of ‘Klansmen demanding that gays be slaughtered,’ ‘hysterical backwoods preachers,’ ‘menacing punks,’ and a ‘tour of Nazi concentration camps where homosexuals were tortured and gassed.’
“In any campaign to win over the public, gays must be portrayed as victims in need of protection so that straights will be inclined by reflex to adopt the role of protector … The purpose of victim imagery is to make straights feel very uncomfortable,” they suggested.
But, perhaps Kirk and Madsen’s most revealing admission came when they said, “[O]ur effect is achieved without reference to facts, logic, or proof.”
And so words like “homophobe” and “heterosexism” were pulled from thin air, not because they had substance, but because they were effective jamming tools. Anyone who holds traditional values relative to human sexuality suddenly became a “homophobe,” a “hatemonger,” a “bigot.”
Looks like their agenda is working.
Janine,
The Taliban kills people who do not follow their religious laws. I am not for murdering those who disagree with me. Stop being silly and think about what you are saying.
” Jesus didn’t try to prevent others from operating under their particular moral code; he taught and let those who chose to follow another way do so.”
I think that you need to explain this one a little more. What did He say to the woman caught in adultery? “Go and sin no more.” That doesn’t sound like He advocated that everyone is allowed to follow their own moral code.
Danielle —
Satan’s biggest trick was to convince the world that he DOESN’T EXIST.
Satan is the AUTHOR of LIES.
After a woman was injured and lost a ton of blood following a botched abortion at the Lincoln abortion mill in Aug 2007, they interviewed the president of the Nebraska&Council Bluffs Planned Parenthood. Denying this woman was obviously in danger, she kept touting that abortion is safe and that they provide a “service to women in need” despite the fact that this woman had to have an emergency hysterectomy.
OK, whatever.
Posted by: Bobby Bambino at November 7, 2008 9:48 AM
I read Janine’s comment just before yours and I had the strangest look on my face trying to make sense of it, then I read this and just laughed! Thanks for that Bobby.
Liz,
Eastern Rite priests must be married before they are ordained or they cannot marry, kind of the same as our deacons. There are married Catholic (Roman Rite) priests but they must have been a pastor in another faith before they converted in order to be ordained.
Janine: I doubt very much that you attend a Catholic church….
your beliefs are very strange
Janine,
Could you please refrain from calling our beloved Pope Benedict XVI, “Benny”? I don’t think God would approve. Thank you.
“OK, whatever.”
Bobby, I think that’s your shortest post ever, except for an ocassional “LOL”.
:^)
“Could you please refrain from calling our beloved Pope Benedict XVI, “Benny”?”
OH! In all seriousness, I could not figure out for the life of me who Benny was… I didn’t know if it was some allusion to Elton John or what.
LOL!
never has there been a greater contrast between two people as that between Pope Benedict dnd Elton John!
lol
You know what, why don’t you all read from a gay person’s point of view? This is from Melissa Ethridge:
“Okay. So Prop 8 passed. Alright, I get it. 51% of you think that I am a second class citizen. Alright then. So my wife, uh I mean, roommate? Girlfriend? Special lady friend? You are gonna have to help me here because I am not sure what to call her now. Anyways, she and I are not allowed the same right under the state constitution as any other citizen. Okay, so I am taking that to mean I do not have to pay my state taxes because I am not a full citizen. I mean that would just be wrong, to make someone pay taxes and not give them the same rights, sounds sort of like that taxation without representation thing from the history books.
Okay, cool I don’t mean to get too personal here but there is a lot I can do with the extra half a million dollars that I will be keeping instead of handing it over to the state of California. Oh, and I am sure Ellen will be a little excited to keep her bazillion bucks that she pays in taxes too. Wow, come to think of it, there are quite a few of us fortunate gay folks that will be having some extra cash this year. What recession? We’re gay!
Oh and too bad California, I know you were looking forward to the revenue from all of those extra marriages. I guess you will have to find some other way to get out of the budget trouble you are in.
When did it become okay to legislate morality? I try to envision someone reading that legislation “eliminates the right” and then clicking yes. What goes through their mind? Was it the frightening commercial where the little girl comes home and says, “Hi mom, we learned about gays in class today” and then the mother gets that awful worried look and the scary music plays? Do they not know anyone who is gay? If they do, can they look them in the face and say “I believe you do not deserve the same rights as me”? Do they think that their children will never encounter a gay person? Do they think they will never have to explain the 20% of us who are gay and living and working side by side with all the citizens of California?
I got news for them, someday your child is going to come home and ask you what a gay person is. Gay people are born everyday. You will never legislate that away.”
Josephine,
Same sex attraction is a psychological disorder. The only reason why it was removed from the APA’s list was because of enormous pressure by gay activists within and outside of the APA. Again, you are not being compassionate by supporting people in a lifestyle that is damaging in many ways.
….You do realize gay people are going to be gay no matter what, right? I mean, not allowing gays to get married isn’t getting rid of gay people… it’s just taking away they’re right to be equal. Did you even read what I just posted?
Alcohol is legal… can’t you consider that damaging? Smoking is legal.. that’s definitely damaging. So, why don’t you go try and fight those things and leave gay people alone and let them be happy.
” So, why don’t you go try and fight those things and leave gay people alone and let them be happy.”
This is the point, Josephine, in the long run it doesn’t make them happy. Yes, I did read your post. I realize that there will be people who will pursue a lifestyle that is unhealthy and brings unhappiness but there are also people with same sex attraction who want to get out of that lifestyle precisely for those reasons. I can’t stop someone from being gay but I’m not going to lie to them and tell them that they have a “right” to be married.
You do realize gay people are going to be gay no matter what, right?
Not all same-sex attracted persons want to stay this way. And some do seek therapy.
Say, it occurred to me today that mk hasn’t posted for awhile — is she okay?
“Say, it occurred to me today that mk hasn’t posted for awhile — is she okay?”
:(
MK decided that she isn’t going to be a moderator or post here anymore. I know, it’s a bummer. She wrote a nice goodbye explanation on https://www.jillstanek.com/archives/2008/11/defeat_fears_pu.html only about 8 posts in. Then there is obviously much talk. But she is now on http://www.2secondsfaster.com/ and starting a book club. The first book we’re reading is Theology of the Body 4 Beginners by West. YOu should join us, Eileen.
Awwww, :( She will be missed an awful lot at this site, I’m sure. God bless her!
Thanks for the invitation, Bobby, I sure would like to try to join you-all if I can. :)
Patricia… you know what? I can’t even begin to think of what I could say to that.
In any case,I’m sure lots of gay people seek therapy. I would too if I were the target of such utter nonsense.
There is no such thing as gay marriage. It doesn’t matter how many times somebody says it. Marriage is the union of a man and a woman and God. The relationships between homos are NOT the same as relationships between heteros. Start there and get it thorugh your head. Homos are going to hurt their chances at being accepted end up without support for civil unions too if they keep attacking the Mormons.
Leah,
You and others are ignoring scientific evidence. The people that Patricia is referring to are seeking therapy because their lifestyle is making them unhappy, not because they are unable to live as they want. You could change every law out there in their favor but that will never make them truly happy or bring interior peace.
Patricia… you know what? I can’t even begin to think of what I could say to that.
In any case,I’m sure lots of gay people seek therapy. I would too if I were the target of such utter nonsense.
Posted by: Leah at November 7, 2008 10:18 PM
Leah, I can’t even begin to think of what I could say to you, other than stopping living in denial.
Many same-sex persons want therapy but are unable to obtain it.
You might be interested to know that the ex-lesbian Lisa Miller who is currently involved in a custody battle over her daughter claims that she was led into the “gay” lifestyle by healthy professionals who reasoned that her failed marriage was the result of an undiagnosed same-sex attraction!
I thought charlatans and quacks were outlawed in medicine but apparently the APA sanctions such things nowadays..
re: Patricia at November 8, 2008 6:48 AM
Assuming you are an active heterosexual, when were you lead into that distructive lifestyle where over 50% of relationships end in divorce, where 37% of kids in America are born out of wed lock? What a horrible lifestyle. As a heterosexual man, I know about all these statistics and I have to fight so hard not to become a part of them because everyone says they are so intrinsic to what it means to be heterosexual. I should probably seek therapy for myself for the disorder of heterosexuality but at the moment i am a bit strapped for cash.
Yo La,
Your stats have nothing to do with the inherent order present in the attraction between a man and a woman (heterosexuality) and everything to do with selfishness (main cause of divorce and out of wedlock births — lack of responsible men in relationships).
Amen to that Eileen #2.
But keep in mind there is a growing trend toward equally selfish, irresponsible women.
Check out the book “Unhooked” by Jillian Strauss. Chilling.
So when you meet gay people… do you pretend that you’re nice and then judge them in your mind, or gossip about them to your friends? Or do you just tell them, that basically… you’re better than them? :)
Assuming you are an active heterosexual, when were you lead into that distructive lifestyle where over 50% of relationships end in divorce, where 37% of kids in America are born out of wed lock? What a horrible lifestyle. As a heterosexual man, I know about all these statistics and I have to fight so hard not to become a part of them because everyone says they are so intrinsic to what it means to be heterosexual. I should probably seek therapy for myself for the disorder of heterosexuality but at the moment i am a bit strapped for cash.
Posted by: Yo la Tengo at November 8, 2008 8:46 AM
a la Bobby: whatever!
>>Lisa Miller who is currently involved in a custody battle over her daughter claims that she was led into the “gay” lifestyle by healthy professionals who reasoned that her failed marriage was the result of an undiagnosed same-sex attraction!]
She may have displayed things to that effect (was attracted to the same sex) but to blame others for “leading” her into being gay is just so lame….
So when you meet gay people… do you pretend that you’re nice and then judge them in your mind, or gossip about them to your friends? Or do you just tell them, that basically… you’re better than them? :)
Posted by: Josephine at November 8, 2008 4:08 PM
Are you serious, Josephine? Why? Do you judge people who suffer from psychological disorders? I don’t.
She may have displayed things to that effect (was attracted to the same sex) but to blame others for “leading” her into being gay is just so lame….
Posted by: Theresa at November 8, 2008 7:39 PM
no. She was “diagnosed” as having a same-sex based on her past history of abuse. Mental health workers persuaded her that she had a same-sex attraction.
Eileen, thank you!
Well, I don’t know Eileen. I mean, you obviously don’t consider them equals. You don’t think they should have the same benefits as you. Soo.. I’m pretty sure you do judge them.
Josephine said to Eileen #2, “So when you meet gay people… do you just tell them, that basically… you’re better than them? :)
When I used to write to criminals in prison, I would tell them that the Lord Jesus Christ is better than they. I didn’t necessarily use those words, but that’s one statement that my words boiled down to. All have sinned, except the Father of the reclaimed human race.
Josephine,
Part of the reason that this debate is going nowhere is that you are operating from a redefining of the concept of marriage. Marriage by its very definition is a union of a man and woman. If a man wanted to marry a horse, I would feel the same.
I think that it is ironic that you accuse me of being judgmental when that is exactly what you are doing to me. No where have I said that I am better than they are. They need our love and assistance — to overcome a psychological disorder — not assistance in pursuing a lifestyle that hurts them in the long run. You ignore scientific findings cited by the CDC on the physical ramifications. You also ignore what psyschiatrists and psychologists are encountering with people who
come to them, deeply unhappy as a result of living an emotionally and physically damaging lifestyle.
You want to be a doctor someday — then you can not pick and choose only that medical evidence which supports your world view.
Hi Bethany,
I’m not exactly sure why you are thanking me but you are welcome. :)
Eileen, for your 7:44 response to Josephine. :)
RE: Eileen #2 at November 8, 2008 7:44 PM
Thinking people have not thought being gay a mental disorder for almost 40 years now. That you harp on them and accuse people you claim to be friendly with of having a “disorder” is quite odd. Do you talk about them this way to their face or just behind their back on anonymous fringe message boards? Or do you just have gay friends so you can “pity” them.
Thinking people have not thought being gay a mental disorder for almost 40 years now.
Which thinking people? The APA? The APA decision was flawed and the committee was stacked with people who had either same-sex attraction disorders themselves or had a vested interest in having the criteria changed. Scientific studies were ignored. In fact I believe the former head of the APA in 1973 when homosexuality was removed from their list of disorders, recanted shortly before his death.
Do you believe people who are mentally handicap should be allowed to marry?
Eileen, you changed your reasoning. First you didn’t want them to get married because they had a mental disorder, then later it was because of redefining marriage. Well, guess what.. definitions of words can change if people are willing. So, basing an argument on the fact that you don’t want a word to change? Really, does that make sense to you?
So, back to my question… if gay people shouldn’t be allowed to marry because it’s a “disorder” why should heterosexuals who have disorders be allowed to get married? :)
“Eileen, you changed your reasoning. First you didn’t want them to get married because they had a mental disorder, then later it was because of redefining marriage. Well, guess what.. definitions of words can change if people are willing. So, basing an argument on the fact that you don’t want a word to change? Really, does that make sense to you?”
Sorry Josephine,
Maybe I didn’t make myself very clear — I don’t think that the government should recognize their “marriages” because a real marriage doesn’t exist. I brought in the subject of same sex attraction as a psychological disorder because you appear to support the homosexual lifestyle as a normal lifestyle.
In answer to your question, if the mental handicap isn’t of such a degree that it would impede the marriage then yes. However a psychological disorder is not the same as a mental handicap.
Being homosexual is as normal as anything else – it happens.
To deny people rights on the basis of the prejudice we see well-represented here is nasty.
Let gay people get married. It’s not going to hurt you.
Thinking people have not thought being gay a mental disorder for almost 40 years now. That you harp on them and accuse people you claim to be friendly with of having a “disorder” is quite odd. Do you talk about them this way to their face or just behind their back on anonymous fringe message boards? Or do you just have gay friends so you can “pity” them.
Posted by: Yo La Tengo at November 9, 2008 4:45 PM
Yo La,
Patricia addressed the first part of your post very well. As for the second part — I already addressed this with Josephine (see my 7:44 post) — I don’t judge people with psychological disorders. I will also go so far as to tell you that I have neighbors who are gay. They have assisted me at times and I have assisted them at times. They know that I am a practicing Catholic so they probably suspect where I stand on the issue of the gay lifestyle so they have never brought it up as I have never brought it up. Were they to bring it up to me, however, I would have to respond with truthfulness and charity.
So, Eileen, should a person that suffers from depression be able to get married? How about someone who suffers from debilitating OCD?
How severe is the depression — is it something that can be treated and controlled by meds? Then I would say yes. If OCD is debilitating then I wouldn’t advise marriage, would you?
Josephine, this is becoming a bit ridiculous — don’t you think?
Not all psych disorders are equal — some are more gravely disordered than others. I think that you should research Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons. I have seen him interviewed — he is an intelligent man who exhibits compassion for his patients.
…Being homosexual is NOT a grave psychological disorder. I wish you’d stop making stuff up.
You’ve commented on another thread about me bragging on my family. If you read those posts about my bragging on my family, you’d remember my mom is a doctor of psychiatry. She doesn’t believe gayness (if you will)is a medical disorder. :) So, you’re just picking and choosing which doctors you’d like to listen to, and you won’t give people the benefit of the doubt because… uhm, you love websters? I dunno. Point is.. I don’t think I’m being ridiculous, I think you are.
Josephine,
I never made any comment about you bragging about your family — you are confusing me with someone else. As far as your mother is concerned, she is just one of many doctors. There are some who still believe that it is a psych disorder. At least they are open to continued research on the subject. You and your mother are ignoring a population of people with same sex attraction who are suffering. I don’t judge them — I want to see people healed. I suggest that she look up Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons.
You’re not a doctor. Doctor’s disagree on the subject. Do you take time to read doctor’s work that says being gay isn’t a disorder? Many doctor’s aren’t open to continued research on the subject because they believe it’s ridiculous to think being gay is a disorder. It’s a lifestyle.
As for me saying you said something about me bragging on my family, I’m sorry. I thought it was you, but I checked after I wrote that and it was Patricia. I mix you too up, that was my fault. I’m sorry.
Josephine,
As long as there are people seeking help for it then there should be research on the subject, wouldn’t you agree?
I think if being gay were never thought to be a disorder, then no one would seek help for it. The religious/judgmental part of society tries to make them think something is wrong with their lifestyle. If my whole life I had to see on the news and hear people talk about how being blonde was a disorder, you can bet I’d dye my hair.
Well, at the present it is not considered to be a disorder but some psychiatrists are rethinking this because of what they have encountered with their patients with same sex attraction.
I am going to bed. God bless and good night!
I want to expand a little bit more in response to your 10:32 pm post. I am not making anything up. I have read and heard enough of interviews of professionals. I mentioned earlier that the APA removed same sex attraction from the list of disorders because of intense pressure and intimidation by gay activists within the association and without. Many psychiatrists did not want to be labeled as homophobes so they acquiesced. But as I also mentioned earlier, some psychiatrists are rethinking this because of the patients that seek therapy because — they are so unhappy with their lifestyle. If you are doing something that is deeply disordered then you are not going to be happy no matter how many people tell you that you are “okay”. I think that you are attributing too much influence to what you refer to as the “religious/judgmental part of society”. It is their consciences speaking to them. When I was in college, When I was in college, I was under pressure to drink, take drugs and become sexually involved because there was “nothing wrong with it” — I glad that I didn’t cave in just because the I “heard people talk” about how I wasn’t progressive. If you would be so easily swayed that you would dye your hair, I would really sit back and think a little more deeply about how easily you can be influenced.
How easily *I* can be influenced? You’re the one who is saying homosexuality is a disorder because of what a few select psychiatrists have said, even though there are MANY who say homosexuality is not a disorder or that it’s not even worth being studied! And, you say I would “so easily be swayed that I would dye my hair” well, it’s exactly what’s happening. They hear EVERYDAY how long their lifestyle is. Why wouldn’t they feel badly about it and try and fix it, even though it’s impossible to fix.
Josephine,
Impossible to fix? How do you know since you won’t even look at research or writings that say otherwise. You won’t even bother to carefully read anything that states to the contrary of your opinions. Those who say that it isn’t even worth studying are operating on a bias. And yes, based on your silly analogy — you are easily influenced. I say we call it a day on this topic.
Oh, you seem to be totally open minded and willing to look at the other side. (That was sarcasm.)
Those who say, without doubt, being gay is a disorder is a homophobe.
Josephine, please read. I pasted only part of the article.
Origin and Healing of Homosexual Attractions and Behaviors
RICHARD FITZGIBBONS
In my clinical experience over the past twenty years I have witnessed the resolution of the emotional pain which caused homosexual temptations and behavior in several hundred males and females.
At the present time most Catholics have little to no understanding of the emotional causes of homosexual attractions and behavior nor of the powerful role that Catholic spirituality can play in the healing of this disorder. The reasons for this state of ignorance are numerous and include the scant literature available on the value of the Catholic Faith and the sacraments in the resolution of homosexual attractions and acts; failure of traditional therapy to resolve homosexual behavior; views within the media and educational, social service, health and political fields. In addition, there are many factions within the Church herself that are opposed to and are attempting to undermine traditional Catholic moral doctrine on this issue.
The failure to understand the actual causes of homosexuality impacts those who counsel teenagers and adults with this disorder. Therapists regularly tell those seeking help that the Church’s teaching on homosexuality is insensitive to homosexuals, unscientific, and erroneous. They are advised to accept themselves as being created homosexual by God. Unfortunately, those giving such counsel usually have little awareness of the emotional conflicts leading to homosexual attractions nor of the healing power available with forgiveness and the Catholic spirituality.
In my clinical experience over the past twenty years I have witnessed the resolution of the emotional pain which caused homosexual temptations and behavior in several hundred males and females. Their process of healing occurred, first, through insight-oriented psychotherapy to identify the origins of their conflicts and then through the use of forgiveness and Catholic spirituality. Such a treatment approach is similar in ways to the employment of spirituality in the treatment of substance abuse disorders. In fact, major breakthroughs were made in the management of addictive disorders only after a reliance on God was made the cornerstone of the treatment plan. Prior to that time, traditional psychotherapy alone resulted in minimal improvement. The use of Catholic spirituality in the treatment of homosexuality follows a similar pattern.
Origins
Eileen, I read the whole thing. I disagree though, and I won’t EVER see where you’re coming from. I don’t think you’re an evil person, and I don’t think you mean to do harm… but let’s face it, can you imagine if a gay person were to read this conversation? Can’t you imagine how absolutely crushed they would feel?
I can’t ever agree with you, so.. I will just say I respectfully disagree and I don’t want to argue about it. You will never change my mind; I will never change yours.
I don’t know what every gay person reading it would feel, I imagine that some might find an answer to their unhappiness, some might not care and continue on with their lives as is. No where did I judge the state of their souls, no where did I insult them, call them names. I don’t go around harassing people with same sex attractions but if the topic is brought up by someone else then I respond with what I know to be true.
Clearing out my bookmarks today and deleting this one after I post this.
I am so glad I am not a member of the Roman Catholic church, particularly under Benny. Thank God for the many progressive and inclusive branches of the catholic family of churches where all who follow Jesus’s teachings – NOT Leviticus, NOT Paul, NOT Benny, men that they are – can find a welcoming home where they can worship in peace.
No one speaks for God. Not anyone posting here, not Benny, not I. No one knows the mind of God, Bible or no Bible, and God doesn’t bow to human ideas or prejudices.
But in all those Bibles, the person all Christians acknowledge to be the only Son of the ever-living God has some important things to say.
In Matthew, for example, he gives us the two greatest commandments. He didn’t give us three, or ten. Just two.
The unloving attitudes and expressions of people who profess to follow Jesus are reminiscent of the Pharisees with their stone-hearted enforcement of the Law untempered by the love Jesus speaks of. When Jesus speaks hahrshly, it is in condemnation of the Pharisees. Sadly, many who call themselves Christian would better acknowledge that they are Pharisees unwilling to extend the loving welcome of Jesus to all God’s children.
Blessings to you all, my sisters and brothers.
Clearing out my bookmarks today and deleting this one after I post this.
I am so glad I am not a member of the Roman Catholic church, particularly under Benny. Thank God for the many progressive and inclusive branches of the catholic family of churches where all who follow Jesus – NOT Leviticus, NOT Paul, NOT Benny, men that they are – can find a welcoming home where they can worship in peace.
No one speaks for God. Not anyone posting here, not Benny, not I. No one knows the mind of God, Bible or no Bible, and God doesn’t bow to human ideas or prejudices.
But in all those Bibles, the person all Christians acknowledge to be the only Son of the ever-living God has some important things to say.
In Matthew, for example, he gives us the two greatest commandments. He didn’t give us three, or ten. Just two.
The unloving attitudes and expressions of people who profess to follow Jesus are reminiscent of the Pharisees with their stone-hearted enforcement of the Law untempered by the love Jesus speaks of. When Jesus speaks hahrshly, it is in condemnation of the Pharisees. Sadly, many who call themselves Christian would better acknowledge that they are Pharisees unwilling to extend the loving welcome of Jesus to all God’s children.
Blessings to you all, my sisters and brothers.