Super-abstinent couple’s first kiss…
Reported the Chicago Sun-Times on November 2:
So what is it like to kiss a girl for the first time ever, after she has become your wife?
“It was surreal,” said Claudaniel “CD” Fabien… after his marriage to Melody LaLuz Fabien on Saturday….
Claudaniel, 30, and Melody, 28, had pledged to be abstinent before marriage — but went a little further by agreeing not to kiss each other on the lips before their union was official.
Why so strict? They didn’t even want to get close to temptation, instead waiting until the minister said the magic words: “NOW, you may kiss the bride.”…
Both Claudaniel and Melody Fabien are abstinence educators – Claudaniel for the nonprofit Confederation of Spanish American Families. Melody is director of the “What’s Good” program for the LYDIA Home Association, a Christian service agency. Both teach abstinence programs within the Chicago Public Schools.
Melody and CD met on their way to a mission trip in Uganda in 2006. Prospects for romance weren’t good – Melody had taken a seven-year vow not to date until June 2007, and the two lived in different cities – Melody in Chicago and CD in Tucson.
After the trip, they talked on the phone, visited, and became friends, with CD promising to respect Melody’s vow. In November 2007, CD got a job in Chicago, and the two began dating. CD proposed last July, writing “WYMM” in sand on a Miami beach.
Another LYDIA educator, Vasti Cruz, said the group isn’t telling young people never to have sex — but just to wait and focus on their goals.
“A lot of people, at 20, are starting . . . life with regrets,” said Cruz. Abstinence “keeps you focused on your future,” said Cruz, who is 71 days away from her own wedding.
The crowd at Maranatha World Revival Ministries on the Northwest Side whooped and hollered when the couple had their first kiss – actually, their first few kisses – with Melody coming back for one more peck like a kid sneaking frosting from a cake.
Afterward, she described the kiss as “magical.”
“It feels like such a gift,” said Melody. “When you value a kiss, it becomes something of worth.”
The couple will leave for a honeymoon in the Bahamas today, but planned to stay in Chicago on Saturday night.
“We got business to take care of tonight,” her husband said, doing a little dance in his white suit while his new bride giggled.
[Photo credit: Chicago Sun-Times]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
What a wonderful story!
Business? Now it looks like they have to move from abstinence to chastity. ;-)
I agree Carla, it’s a wonderful story – it’s a shame that it’s an exception and not the rule.
Oh I love it! How beautiful that they thought that the other one was worth waiting for to even kiss. Now going into this marriage, each one knows how much self-control and discipline the other one has. What a way to start!
Trust. Oh my. That means neither ever have to deal with pictures of how many others were kissed before.
In the world of sex addicts, they wonder haw many abortions she had and what kind of diseases.
“That means neither ever have to deal with pictures of how many others were kissed before.”
Is this what you worry about? It never have occurred to me to worry about who my wife had kissed before, and certainly not be preoccupied with “pictures.”
I’m happy if this couple is happy. Fine by me, but I don’t think it’s a shame that “it’s the exception and not the rule.” So many people here seem to regret the life they lived that made them who they are now. If I’m happy with who I am, than it follows I should be happy with the choices I made that brought me to this point. And if I love who my wife has become, I must love the choices she made that brought her here. We’re not together in spite of our life experiences, but because of them.
Hal, I don’t think that it logically follows that you should love the choices that were made but that you love despite the choices that were made. God bless.
That is a beautiful story — it is really uplifting!
Hal,
“If I’m happy with who I am, than it follows I should be happy with the choices I made that brought me to this point.”
Hal, I absolutely agree with this sentiment. The choices that we have made in the past define the people who we are today and it is impossible to assume that people would still be as they are had these choices not been made.
“We’re not together in spite of our life experiences, but because of them.”
Again, completely agree with the sentiment.
Eileen #2
I know this isn’t addressed to me, but I couldn’t resist.
“I don’t think that it logically follows that you should love the choices that were made but that you love despite the choices that were made.”
How can you love a person if you love them in spite of what made them who they are?
In my view, I would say it is not love but loving acceptance that matters.
I don’t think it’s all that wise to entirely avoid kissing until marriage, thereby equating it with sexual foreplay. If that’s how this guy thinks of it, will he reflexively start undressing whenever they kiss?
So hal why does your leftist obama want to teach sex in kindergarten? so they can try out both sexes before they dream of a marriage that is homo or hetero? The hedonist extremists don’t get the point of this article Jill.
Hal, no there are things that we do in life that should be regretted. If I were to go out tomorrow and kill someone, would you say that I should embrace the choice because it “made me who I am today.”?
We should turn away from our prior sins, not celebrate their role in our life.
God bless ’em!
XPPC,
“The hedonist extremists don’t get the point of this article Jill.”
And what is the point of the article?
That two people met, became friends, fell in love, and then married, making a choice to honor that which they both valued but many others did not?
Or is it supposed to be how their marriage is somehow “purer” and “better” because they decided to abstain from both kissing and sex before they took their marital vows?
Hal – your focus in on you, your own happiness, and your own choices. You show great contempt when people evaluate their lives to identify points of correction in order to pass those joyful lessons on to their children and shape their world, because it convicts you.
For the same reason, you also conveniently describe all the real pain and past suffering as a good thing. It’s not. Don’t insult us by suggesting it is.
Lessons need to be passed on to our children. If one gets burned by literal fire, we don’t encourage our children to burn themselves. If you grew up with an abusive alcoholic parent who beat the snot out of you on your birthday, you wouldn’t seriously do the same to your own kid intentionally or suggest that’s good, because you believe it “instills character” that he should rejoice in.
No one deliberately chooses self-destructive behavior unless they are mentally masochistic, incredibly ignorant or completely foolish.
Patterns established in youth carry over with consequences that impact families years later. To suggest any person or family celebrates and “loves the choice” of serious suffering brought about by a multitude of avoidable behaviors is asinine.
I’ve seen lives and families destroyed by personal sexual choices.
I celebrate what I have, and thank God everyday for my wife and family, because in the end, it was only a collection of positive, life- affirming choices that forged our relationship and built our family, despite the forces that sought to destroy our lives when we had made bad choices.
You come here with your opinions, and you’ve gained friends who respect you despite the utter depravity of many of those opinions. They work hard to see you as a person, and overlook the insults – the choice of words you use when you post.
One doesn’t have to love or embrace the bad choices another person has made – and suffered through, to love the person. True lovingkindness means loving and forgiving others in spite of their bad choices, and desiring only the best for them.
It’s incredibly clear you don’t understand the difference.
Stop calling evil good.
This is what you can expect from comments about terrific stories like these. There are some who will say, “Good for them.” and then there are others who say, “Good for them, but…” and then bring up their own lives.
I call that residual guilt.
Huckfinn,
You can worry about that while they are celebrating in the Bahamas!! :)
My husband of 15 years and I did this – no kissing until our wedding day. Believe me when I say that it seemed all hell wanted to see us fail at this. We had both been sexually active in the past, before we were committed to Christ and doing things His way. Our courtship was more than two years and we were both in our 30’s, so it was a real challenge. I can honestly say though, that both of us are CERTAIN of the other’s ability to be unyielding in faithfulness. I highly recommend a pure courtship to all – even to this “extreme” It sets the stage for a chaste and trusting marriage, and it is also an awesome way to “rage against the machine” of modern society that is so far down in the gutter.
I’m happy for them. Clearly, not for everyone but good for them for following their hearts and their convictions.
Now…. xppc, what’s with this Obama wants to teach sex in kindgarten. You know that’s not true. Gently helping kids be aware of predators and inappropriate contact is not what we mean by sex ed and you know it.
Asitis, have you seen the curriculem? It goes far beyond simply telling children about predators.
Posted by: Enigma at December 3, 2008 9:49 AM-“Or is it supposed to be how their marriage is somehow “purer” and “better” because they decided to abstain from both kissing and sex before they took their marital vows?”
Yes it does and why can’t it be better or purer. I did not live a chaste life before marriage and neither did my wife but we both have learned how great this would have been. We try to live a chaste life now and our relationship is much better-it is never too late but we can’t deny the truth of our past.
What a great story!!
Care to share the curriculum Lauren?
I’ll see if I can find it online. I heard it read on the news, but I’m sure the original document is floating around somewhere.
“Trust. Oh my. That means neither ever have to deal with pictures of how many others were kissed before.”
Your problem xppc is that you (like most of the pro-life movement) don’t see people as individuals. You think “Oh human DNA everyone is the same.” Someone could kiss one hundred guys but then they see that one special one and they never look back. I’ve been with guys who have been with other girls and I don’t get all self-conscious and worried, I know that I’m special to them or else they wouldn’t be with me they would be with someone else.
Of course this is all waaaaaay above you.
My Mom wasn’t a virgin when she married my Dad but 25 years later they’re still in love heat and soul, you can tell by the way they care for and respect one another and the way they look at each other and still hold hands when they walk.
Alright, I found it with a llittle digging.
The curriculem that was proposed was created by siecus. Here’s the text for kindergarten-3rd grade.
http://www.siecus.org/_data/global/images/guidelines.pdf
“Developmental Messages:
Level 1
• Each body part has a correct name and a specific function.
• A person’s genitals, reproductive organs, and genes determine whether the person is male or female.
• A boy/man has nipples, a penis, a scrotum, and testicles.
• A girl/woman has breasts, nipples, a vulva, a clitoris, a vagina, a uterus, and ovaries.
• Some sexual or reproductive organs, such as penises and vulvas, are external or on the outside of
the body while others, such as ovaries and testicles, are internal or inside the body.
• Both boys and girls have body parts that feel good when touched
HUMAN DEVELOPMENT
Topic 2: Puberty
Level 1
Bodies change as children grow older.
Puberty is a time of physical and emotional change that happens as children become teenagers.
People are able to have children only after they have reached puberty.
Topic 3: Reproduction
Level 1
Men and women have reproductive organs that enable them to have a child.
Men and women have specific cells in their bodies (sperm cells and egg cells) that enable them to reproduce.
Reproduction requires that a sperm and egg join.
Vaginal intercourse – when a penis is placed inside a vagina – is the most common way for a sperm and egg to join.
When a woman is pregnant, the fetus grows inside her body in her uterus.
A woman can be pregnant with more than one fetus at a time.
Babies usually come out of a woman’s body through an opening called a vagina.
Some babies are born by an operation called a Caesarian Section.
A woman’s breasts can provide milk for a baby.
Not all men and women have children.
People who cannot have children may choose to adopt.
Topic 4: Body Image
Level 1
Individual bodies are different sizes, shapes, and colors.
All bodies are equally special, including those that are disabled.
Differences make us unique.
Good health habits, such as eating well and exercising, can improve the way a person feels about his or her body.
Each person can be proud of his/her body.
Topic 5: Sexual Orientation Subconcept: As people grow and develop they may begin to feel romantically and/or sexually attracted to people of the same and/or a different gender.
Level 1
Human beings can love people of the same gender and people of another gender.
Some people are heterosexual, which means they can be attracted to and fall in love with someone of another gender.
Some people are homosexual, which means they can be attracted to and fall in love with someone of the same gender.
Homosexual men and women are also known as gay men and lesbians.
People deserve respect regardless of who they are attracted to.
Making fun of people by calling them gay (e.g. “homo,” “fag,” “queer”) is disrespectful and hurtful.
Topic 6: Gender Identity (begins at level 2)
SEXUAL BEHAVIOR
Topic 1: Sexuality Throughout Life
Level 1
Most children are curious about their bodies.
Bodies can feel good when touched.
Topic 2: Masturbation
Level 1
Touching and rubbing one’s own genitals to feel good is called masturbation.
Some boys and girls masturbate and others do not.
Masturbation should be done in a private place.
Topic 3: Shared Sexual Behavior Subconcept: Individuals express their sexuality with a partner in diverse ways.
Level 1
People often kiss, hug, touch, and engage in other sexual behaviors with one another to show caring and to feel good.
Topic 5: Human Sexual Response Subconcept: Female and male bodies respond both similarly and differently to sexual stimulation.
Level 1
Both girls and boys may discover that their bodies feel good when touched.
Topic 6: Sexual Fantasy (begins at level 3)
SEXUAL HEALTH
Topic 2: Contraception Subconcept: Contraception enables people to have sexual intercourse and avoid unintended pregnancy.
Level 1
Some people have children and others do not.
Each family can decide how many children to have, if any.
Topic 4: Abortion Subconcept: When a woman becomes pregnant and chooses not to have a child, she has the option of having an abortion.
Level 1
• Sometimes women become pregnant when they do not want to be or are unable to care for a child.
Topic 5: Sexually Transmitted Diseases
Level 1
Sexually transmitted diseases are caused by germs such as bacteria and viruses.
There are many types of sexually transmitted diseases.
People who do not engage in certain behaviors do not get STDs.
A small number of children are born with STDs that they get from their mothers during pregnancy or birth.
The most common ways for a person to get an STD is to participate in sexual behavior or share a needle with another person who is already infected with an STD.
Children who find needles on the ground should not touch them and should tell an adult.
SOCIETY AND CULTURE
Topic 2: Gender Roles
Level 1
Girls and boys have many similarities and a few differences.
Some people may expect or demand that boys and girls behave in certain ways, but this is beginning to change.
Both women and men can be involved and caring parents.
Boys and girls can do the same chores at home.
Men and women are capable of doing almost all the same jobs.
Some men and women may be told that certain jobs and tasks are only for women or only for men, but this is beginning to change.
Topic 4: Sexuality and Religion
Level 1
Some families go to a church, mosque, or synagogue to worship; some families do not.
Religions teach people how to love each other, how to behave, and what is right and wrong.
Different religions may promote similar or different values.
Topic 5: Diversity Subconcept: Our society has a diversity of sexual attitudes and behaviors; some people are unfairly discriminated against because of the way they express their sexuality.
Level 1
Individuals differ in the way they think, act, look, and live.
Talking about differences helps people understand each other better.
The belief that all members of a group will behave the same way is called a stereotype.
Stereotypes can hurt people.
All people should receive fair and equal treatment.
People who are different are often treated negatively or unequally, which is unfair. ”
Erm, Jess, you just made a wild and sweeping generalization condemning those who make wild and sweeping generalizations.
Pretty funny.
Here is a link to the Illinois General Assembly http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/fulltext.asp?DocName=&SessionId=3&GA=93&DocTypeId=SB&DocNum=99&GAID=3&LegID=734&SpecSess=&Session=
Here is the bill Obama supported. An excerpt:
“Each class or course in comprehensive sex education offered in any of grades K through 12 shall include instruction on the prevention of sexually transmitted infections, including the prevention, transmission and spread of HIV.”
This is not age appropriate.
Thanks Lauren. I’ll read that more closely. I have no idea how this compares to anything that is now universally taught throughout the country or if there even are any universal guidelines. But good to see that we will have it moving forward.
As for the guidelines for Kindegarten through Grade 3, I am in favour of them. Obviously, they will progress gradually through the guidelines over that time period. At first, I was surprised to see vaginal intercourse in this first level. But thinking back, I realize I was in Grade 3, at a Catholic school, when I first heard about sex. That was on the playground. It haunted me for months (Obviously I got over it!). So, while Grade 3 may seem early, I don’t think it is.
I like that they cover a full range of topics at each level.
Jeff, read the guidelines that lauren sent the link for. You will see that all of these things are not specifically discussed right from kindegarten. In the early grades pre-concepts are taught that are age-appropriate.
NOw, that’s a very wonderful story…
“”When you value a kiss, it becomes something of worth.”
SO true…reminds me of the Duggar’s first born and his bride-to-be’s decision not to kiss until they’re married.
I had a good friend in high school who was Pentecostal. She and her fiance did the same thing. Their first kiss was on their wedding day. I was a bridesmaid in her wedding. Though none of the bridesmaids shared her views, we were all very supportive.
They divorced about 6 months later.
I say we wait and see what happens first, eh?
Would it have made a difference if they had kissed, do you think Erin? Was he that bad of a kisser? Poor girl! :)
This is what you can expect from comments about terrific stories like these. There are some who will say, “Good for them.” and then there are others who say, “Good for them, but…” and then bring up their own lives.
I call that residual guilt.
Posted by: Cranky Catholic at December 3, 2008 9:54 AM
hehehe I totally agree!
I had a good friend in high school who was Pentecostal. She and her fiance did the same thing. Their first kiss was on their wedding day. I was a bridesmaid in her wedding. Though none of the bridesmaids shared her views, we were all very supportive.
They divorced about 6 months later.
I say we wait and see what happens first, eh?
Posted by: Erin at December 3, 2008 1:03 PM
and your missing comment was (as in asitis mode!) they obviously weren’t sexually compatible!
yeah right!!
Honestly, asitis…I think they got married because they wanted to sleep together. Because they were both so religious, they couldn’t justify it without getting married. Basically, they got married for all the wrong reasons because they were afraid to explore their relationship any further than a friendship without being married. I could be wrong, I don’t really talk to Christa so much anymore, but that’s my take.
asitis,
I don’t see in this link where it is what Obama was pushing for. Are you saying this is the same curriculum that Obama supported while he was an Illinois legislator?
That’s a question for Lauren, Jeff. I asked for Obama’s and that’s what she gave, so I assumed it was.
Erin,
“Basically, they got married for all the wrong reasons”
If your above analysis is correct, I agree, they did get married for the wrong reasons.
No “residual guilt” Cranky Catholic or Patricia. We leave that for you Catholics! For us, just sweet memories!
My comment to Erin was in jest. Funny/tragic how it worked out though – they they made a lifelong commitment in order to have sex and then realized they only were interested in the sex.
Jeff, it is the proposed curriculem. I’m sure I can track down which states currently use it and other such info.
I think this is a wonderful story that proves that people can be chaste before marriage and that we are not the animals that PP makes everyone out to be.
Afterward, she described the kiss as “magical.”
“It feels like such a gift,” said Melody. “When you value a kiss, it becomes something of worth.”
oh boy! Is this young woman right on the money! This is Theology of the Body tried and true. The first kiss is the first physical gift of themselves that they have made to one another. They publicly stated their committment to one another in their marriage ceremony and now with their bodies they will follow through. Awesome!
Anonymous: wonderful for you too! It is NEVER to late to regain a chaste life. You were blessed and I’m sure you know it. Please do not be put off by the attacks here. And of course, old stinky breath was mad at you and your then fiance! I am sure you were sorely tempted but this probably made you a stronger couple.
and @ HuckFinn: kissing IS part of foreplay.
Alright everyone, I have information :)
I just called Siecus. I haven’t called the vp yet, but I was given her information.
I was told by the lady I spoke with that Siecus simply provides guidelines, and states use them as they see fit. Washington DC and New Jersey are two areas that use follow the guidlines to the letter, and others pick and choose.
They’re emailing me a report, and I’m going to call the vp for more information. I’ll let everyone know what I find out.
oh yes, I’m sure you’ve quite easily divested yourself of ALL your Catholic guilt Virginia! In your dreams…..lol
Thanks Lauren
Patricia wrote “and @ HuckFinn: kissing IS part of foreplay”
This depends on the intent of the kiss, this may seem like nitpicking but is important, sometimes we kiss for affection not lust. However if we are kissing and are tempted to go further (and not married)we should avoid it. If you haven’t, check out Real Love by Mary Beth Bonacci.
I’m reposting my reply from the PP gift certificates post, because I think it’s appropriate here, too.
====Do I wish I’d slept with more people before married? I never really thought about it. I can’t say for sure to be honest. But I bet if you ask someone who hadn’t slept with anyone but their spouse, they’d have an answer for youright away…… And maybe not what you are hoping for!
Posted by: asitis at November 28, 2008 9:48 PM====
I know I’m coming to this topic late, but my wife and I are each other’s first and only lover and that was after the wedding. Our only regrets are the other people we had dated and kissed, and our own unchaste moments while we were dating and engaged.
Ignorance is certainly bliss for us when it comes to knowing other people physically. We could be the best lovers in the world or the worst; we don’t care. All we know is, we’re very happy and keep the home fires burning high.
Posted by: Michael at December 2, 2008 2:03 PM
————-
Patricia wrote “and @ HuckFinn: kissing IS part of foreplay”
This depends on the intent of the kiss, this may seem like nitpicking but is important, sometimes we kiss for affection not lust. However if we are kissing and are tempted to go further (and not married)we should avoid it. If you haven’t, check out Real Love by Mary Beth Bonacci.
Posted by: Jeff at December 3, 2008 1:51 PM
I agree Jeff. In fact in many cultures kissing is a part of greeting. I’m part Italian and we kiss everyone we can get our hands on! and a few we can’t! lol
My friends and I often greet with a kiss and a hug. It’s a sign of care and deep friendship.
ANd yes, Ms Bonacci’s book is very very good! I’ve read it.
Great comment Michael. And I’ve been told by friends that the previous partners they’ve had and their spouses have had also have an impact on their intimate lives in ways they couldn’t have understood when single. I rather wonder, if for some it doesn’t bother them because the intimacy in the relationship isn’t quite there anyway.
Alright, I just got an email from a lady at Siecus that details the various effectiveness of sexual education programs. I’m still waiting to hear back from another woman regarding how different states have implemented the guidelines.
not surprisingly I’m completely against sex ed for kids.
NOT children knowing about sex, but rather having a complete stranger telling a mixed group of children about something very special and very private.
An interesting thing about this that I read in a book on modesty: teachers have noticed an interesting phenomena when children are given sex instruction at school. In the playground afterwards, it is not uncommon for the boys to tease the girls about their bodies and about various sexual terms. This causes great grief for the girls who are often at a very vulnerable stage in their lives when their bodies are changing and they are trying to adjust to these changes.
IMO: the parents are the ones who should take the sex ed courses. Then they will be quite knowledgeable and capable to instruct their own children. For it is impossible to instruct children in this area without some kind of values being inculcated.
And here is what we’re up against: From http://www.thenationalcampaign.org/EA2007/EA2007_full.pdf
There are still too-high levels of sexual risk-taking
among teens:
I Roughly half (47 percent ) of all high school
students in the U.S. report having sex at least
once, and close to two-thirds (63 percent )
report having sex by the spring semester of
their senior year of high school. This behavior
puts them at risk of both pregnancy and
infection with an STD.
I Although 80 to 90 percent of teens report using
contraception the most recent time they
had sexual intercourse, many teenagers do
not use contraceptives carefully and consistently.
Among 15- to 19-year-old girls relying
upon oral contraceptives, only 70 percent
take a pill every day.
Yuck! According to this review 1/3 of all sexually active young people will have an STD by 24!
Yuck! According to this review 1/3 of all sexually active young people will have an STD by 24!
That percentage is probably low as our society has accepted promiscuous behavior as a good not just the norm. I just saw a study that says 1 out of 5 young adults 19-25 have a personality disorder -http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hIIYyBlLI4gzYDiuE9_hssZbh3NQD94Q92CO1. Early sexual behavior leads to depression in girls, chastity is the antidote.
Yuck! According to this review 1/3 of all sexually active young people will have an STD by 24!
Posted by: lauren at December 3, 2008 2:14 PM
this is ONE major reason to advocate chastity and reduce the spirally rates of infertility.
sorry I meant spiralling! Yikes!
Jeff, I saw that study too.
I think the biggest thing to take away from the various studies on young people, is that we are not a healthy generation.
I think the biggest thing to take away from the various studies on young people, is that we are not a healthy generation.
Posted by: lauren at December 3, 2008 2:32 PM
in all aspects: physically, emotionally and spiritually.
lauren, when they studies the effectiveness of various sex education programs did they look outside the US? Other countries do it better- would think that would be part of their research. Thanks for the info!
Asitis, I’m only about 30 pages in right now. They looked at all sorts of different types of Sex ed programs though, so I wouldn’t be suprised if they looked outside the US. If I see any specific mention, I’ll be sure to let you know.
Interestinly, here is their statement on abstinence programs.
“Even though there does not exist strong evidence
that any particular abstinence program is effective
at delaying sex or reducing sexual behavior, one
should not conclude that all abstinence programs
are ineffective. After all, programs are diverse,
fewer than 10 rigorous studies of these programs
have been carried out, and studies of two programs
have provided modestly encouraging results.”
Posted by: asitis at December 3, 2008 2:39 PM-Other countries do it better
Respectfully, how do we know they do it better.
Also I’m not sure doing it better is the point, doing it(teaching sex ed early)is not necessary.
It looks like teens start out using contraception and then start to taper off as they get more sexually experienced.
Most sexually experienced teenagers report that
they use contraception, at least some of the time.
About 74 percent of girls used contraception the
first time they had sex, and 83 percent reported
having used contraception the most recent time
they had sex [14]. Among boys, approximately
82 percent used some form of contraception the
first time they had sex, and 90 percent reported
having used contraception the last time they had
sex [14].
The apparent trends over time in contraceptive
use among teens depend upon the measure of
contraceptive use, the exact time period, and the
data sets. Data from the National Survey of Family
Growth point to a large increase in contraceptive
use by teen girls having sex for the first time,
from 48 percent in 1982 to 74 percent in 2002
[14; 15]. Among sexually active girls, the proportion
who had used contraception at the most
recent sexual intercourse dropped between 1988
and 1995 but rose from 1995 to 2002 [5]. Use
of contraceptives in the past month by sexually
active girls held constant at 77 percent between
1988 and 1995 but decreased slightly in 2002, to
73 percent [16].
(snip re:differences in ethnicity)
Condoms are the most commonly used method
of contraception when a teen first has sex. In
2002, 66 percent of sexually experienced girls and
71 percent of sexually experienced boys reported
using a condom the first time they had sex [14].
More than nine in ten sexually experienced girls
reported that they had ever used a condom [14].
The use of condoms declines with age and sexual
experience. In 2002, condom use during most recent
sex fell from 83 percent among sexually active15-
to 17-year-old boys to 64 percent among
sexually active18- to 19-year-old boys [14]. Similarly,
58 percent of sexually active girls age 15
to 17 used a condom the last time they had sex,
compared to only 49 percent of girls age 18 to
19 [14]. Data from the 2005 Youth Risk Behavior
Survey reveal similar trends as teens grow older
[7]. Condoms are used disproportionately often
with casual partners and much less often with
close romantic partners [18]. Furthermore, the
longer a sexual relationship between two people
lasts, the less likely they are to use condoms [19].
Many teenagers do not use contraceptives carefully
and consistently, thereby exposing themselves
to the risk of pregnancy or STDs. Among
15- to 19-year-old girls relying primarily upon
oral contraceptives, only 70 percent took a pill
every day [20]. Among never-married girls who
had had sex in the past year, only 28 percent used
a condom every time they had sex. Similarly, only
48 percent of never-married boys used a condom
every time they had sex in the past year [5].
When asked why they did not use contraception,
adolescents frequently responded that they did
not expect or plan to have sex and therefore were
not prepared [21-23]. A far less common reason
was that they could not afford birth control, did
not know where to get it, could not get it, or
did not know how to use it. Among teens who
reported that they had stopped using contraception,
53 percent said it was because of side effects,
while only 7 percent said contraception was
too hard to obtain and 2 percent indicated that
contraception was too expensive [14].”
So, it looks like it isn’t cost or availability that causes teens to not use contraception, but side effects and comfort with their partner.
Posted by: Jess at December 3, 2008 12:16 PM
Guys, as in plural, Jess?
Your comments indicate you have no idea about how men really think. It took my wife and I almost a month of non-stop intimate discussion until she finally realized how men think (or not) when it comes to women. It’s not an easy topic to discuss. Instead, I’ll share a true story:
When I was in the Army stationed in Germany, I met a beautiful young woman at a night club. Our relationship was friendly & casual, but as I was leaving in less than a year we didn’t get too involved. We talked a lot by phone & met a few times to wander around the city. On New Year’s Eve I went to the night club because she mentioned she might go with some friends, and I thought I would surprise her. Walking in I saw her sitting on the lap of the guy who lived in the room above mine in the barracks. When she noticed me, she got upset. I didn’t want to make trouble for her, so I left – apparently too late.
3 weeks later she finally called, after I had heard his side of the story.
See GI’s would find German girls who desired American citizenship to “shack-up” with. They would sexually use then dump them, returning to the States without telling them they were leaving. He considered her a complete slut, so he used her but was leaving in February. He had met her only a couple of weeks before I did, but we both approached her differently.
She told me the whole story later. We continued to talk by phone and exchanged letters for quite a while after I left Germany. Then through moves we got disconnected.
What’s the lesson?
You tell me – everything is there.
Asitis-so far I found this:
Other Western industrialized countries with
available data in the mid-1990s have much lower
rates of teen pregnancy. Canada’s 52 pregnancies
per 1,000 girls in the mid-1990s and England and
Wales’ 55 were much lower than the U.S. rate
of 75 per 1,000 in 2002. The U.S. rate was three
to four times as high as rates in France (23) and
Germany (19) and approximately five times the
rates in Italy, Spain, and the Netherlands, all of which had 14 pregnancies per 1,000 girls in the
mid-1990s”
It hasn’t talked about *why* those countries have lower rates though, just that they do. It appears a recuring theme is that non-white ethnic groups tend to have much higher rates of teen pregnancy/more partners/ earlier sex/ higher rates of STD’s. It’s possible that this is contributing to our higher rates. If this is the case (which the studies seem to point to) we need to find methods that reach out to these racial groups.
And here is the statistic that I believe tell it all:
“Among unmarried adolescents between age 15
and 19, the birth rate rose from 22 per 1,000 in
1970 to a high of 46 per 1,000 in 1994; the rate
fell to 35 per 1,000 in 2004 [2]. Similarly, the
percentage of births to unmarried girls under
age 20 has risen dramatically, from 15 percent
in 1960 to 83 percent in 2005.
The rise in nonmarital births reflects, in large
part, the higher pregnancy rates among unmarried
teens. It also reflects the substantial decline
in marriage among pregnant teenage girls.”
Patricia @2:10,
The Vatican also discourages large group sex ed for the exact reasons you state (I’ll get the cite and post later). It takes the intimacy out of the intimate, and makes it a clinical presentation. Sex ed programs are written solely to convey the physical dimensions and barely mention the spiritual/mental/sociological aspects. However, a class that properly teaches and discusses the meaning and significance of human sexuality in a smaller group fashion could convey the necessary biological information in a manner which still respects the inherent dignity of man and woman.
Chris do you think that men today still go by the “good girl” vs “bad girl” thing.
In other words, do men look at the signals a woman sends out, by the way she dresses and behaves and make a decision, subconcious or not, about whether a girl will be the type to sleep with.
Or do you think it’s just accepted today by men, that women will sleep with a man (because of the availability of BC) and just pass by the women who won’t?
bingo lauren!
and another thing to note is those countries have the same rate of sexually active teens as the US (~80% @ age 19)
However, a class that properly teaches and discusses the meaning and significance of human sexuality in a smaller group fashion could convey the necessary biological information in a manner which still respects the inherent dignity of man and woman.
Posted by: Michael at December 3, 2008 3:02 PM
I agree but the chances of achieving this are slim given the climate in schools today.
My children are pulled out of sex classes which actually are quite mild and don’t really discuss anything at the elementary level. It really depends upon the teacher and most teachers do not want to teach this subject to the detail given in the textbook. I mentioned about the teasing that goes on between the sexes and my daughters have not experienced this because of not being in the class. They have seen it though – boys will go up to a girl and say “Virginia, why haven’t YOU started developing yet?” and walk off laughing. These sort of comments were not occurring prior to the sex instruction. This tells me that these children are NOT ready for the talks given and are emotionally immature to deal with the subject at hand.
On the other hand, sex classes are quite detailed in gr.11. So I sit down and prepare my teens for the topics at hand. We dicuss the Catholic teaching on whatever is to be discussed and I make sure the teaching is carefully explained and understood so that they are able to defend and present the position if required. Also, talk about sex in my house occurs whenever it comes up as opposed to sitting the child down and giving them “the talk”.
About age 11 they are given the basic information about puberty and then it goes from there.
Ok, so after looking through 50 pages of this report here are the things that really stick out.
Pregnancy and STD rates increase with each partner. The younger a person starts, the more sexual partners, and the more sex.
Minority racial groups start having sex at younger ages, have more sexual partners, and have sex more frequently than their white peers. This disparity is what is causing the US rates to be so much higher than the rest of the western world. Obviously, current techniques aren’t working within these minority groups.
Also, teens don’t seem to have a problem with access or price of contraception, but rather do not like the side effects. So the solution to the problem can not be “easier access” something else must be in play.
Absitnence education needs to be better studied, as well as changed as needed to help different communities. An average of 12 years elapses between menarch and marriage. For this reason, we are facing an uphill battle.
I’m sure there’s more but those are the take away’s I’ve gotten.
So…what do we do?
Posted by: lauren at December 3, 2008 2:57 PM-“It hasn’t talked about *why* those countries have lower rates though, just that they do.”
Abortion rates are much higher in Europe than in the US (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,301370,00.html). I could not find birth control statistics for Europe compared to the US. However the abortion rate does tell us one reason Europe has lower birth rates.
Patricia,
I should have qualified my comments to say that I can’t see proper instruction given in a school situation, parochial or public. Maybe, maybe at a solid Catholic parish, orthodox youth ministers could hold a seminar series teaching such a topic. But the parents are the ones who should lead this, as you mentioned.
It’s very unpopular to say this, but parents are the primary educators of their children and are responsible for their proper education and formation in all matters. And that definitely means that there isn’t “the talk” once. Heck, already our little girls (4 & 2) know that kissing on the lips are for Mommy and Daddy only, and signify a special bond for us. As they grow, they will learn from our example and discussion.
maybe part of the problem lauren, is the breakdown of the family.
Research has demonstrated that girls from broken homes have sexual intercourse earlier than their peers from stable two parent homes. They also have higher pregnancy rates and are more likely to drop out of school.
Congratulations to CD and to Melody!!!! A friend of mine sent me the link to their wedding website it was awesome with their story, how they met, their courtship, their commitment to purity, their Lord, their engagement and to marriage. Their website indicated that they had made the committment to not date anyone for the last several years, (it did not say what their lifestyle was like before this). As a minority myself, this is really exciting because of the stereotype promoted in our culture, that minority young people have no control over their sexual behavior. I have nieces who have made and have kept their commitment to purity until they were married, some of them are still waiting. Their marriages (not just the wedding ceremony) have been very special, sacred, committed, with plenty of beautiful babies to follow. The research I have seen says couples who have been abstinent before marriage have better marriages, less divorce (70% stay together vs. 50%), married people have more sex, more satifying sex and less chance of cheating. The benefits of waiting no matter what PP says are awesome. Like one of my nieces said before she married to her friends that teased her about her virginity “I can become like you any day of the week, but you can NEVER become like me again” after she married she related “I am so glad we waited, it was worth waiting for”. Too bad the pro-PPites probably will never get it, they usually attack the beauty of the gift of sexual purity, because (although they will deny this) it strikes a cord of regret that they do not want to deal with. God bless this beautiful couple with a long and happy life together.
Jeff, obviously that is NOT something that we want to replicate.
Patricia, that is definitely a factor. Children of single parents often become single parents, and children of teen parents often become teen parents. It’s definitely a cycle.
patricia, you’re right kids can be cruel in general, even without sex ed (Pat is fat!). But I never found that even though yes, I was a later bloomer… Took me until high school to get these 36B and that’s not alot but suits me fine as a marathoner. And as my husband says… ( oh, never mind!). But I digress. The US needs to improving universal sex education is one of the steps this country needs to take and I am happy to see that happening
stupid iPhone keypad….
It seems having ever “kissed or necked” is indeed a “risk factor” for teen sex/pregnancy.
According to Table 3.1: Important Risk and Protective Factors and the Feasibility of Changing Them (Con’t.)
michael problem is not all parents teach it and well. And some just teach them not to have sex and then when they go and have sex anyway as most teens do, they are at much greater risk.
Isn’t that obvious lauren? I mean, if you have never been kissed you likely never had sex. Kind of like saying talking to boys increases girls’ risk factors.
Oh I know, I was just making a point that this couple was apparently correct in their assumption that kissing is an obvious physical precursor to sex.
Posted by: asitis at December 3, 2008 3:45 PM-michael problem is not all parents teach it and well. And some just teach them not to have sex and then when they go and have sex anyway as most teens do, they are at much greater risk.
This is exactly the reason the government should stay out of it. Who is to say what “teach it well” means? Only the parents can decide this.
michael problem is not all parents teach it and well. And some just teach them not to have sex and then when they go and have sex anyway as most teens do, they are at much greater risk.
Posted by: asitis at December 3, 2008 3:45 PM
that’s why the parent should go to the classes Virginia and NOT the kids
The parents also know when their kids are ready emotionally and so forth for this kind of information.
A child who doesn’t hit puberty till 14 isn’t gonna be ready for sex ed at 11.
Jeff: ya beat me to it!! :-D
patricia and jeff, you honestly think those teenagers who are at the greatest risk are going to have parents that get fully educated and then transfer all of that to their kids? And even well- meaning parents might choose not to properly educate their children. As for age to start, by 11 they have heard all kinds of things true and untrue about sex … Remember when you were young? I like the way this program lays some preconcepts. When they are early and builds on it. I also like the full range of topics.
oops that anon was me!
when I was 11, I did not know ANYTHING about sex. Nor was I interested. I was skating, watching hockey and reading tons of books at that age.
However, I also wasn’t exposed to the crap on TV that kids are today and I didn’t dress like a hooker when I was 5 years old.
So times have definitely changed.
But none of my girls knew about sex at 11 either and my youngest who is 11 now, knows nothing. I can assure you she knows NOTHING! And she’s a very happy innocent little girl which is exactly what she should be at this age.
well I can tell you I wasnt interested in it either, watched very little tv, dressed like a schoolgirl or tomboy depending on the occassion and yet we all still heard stiff in the park, in the schoolyard, from older kids, our peers. This was over 30 years ago. Don’t blame it on the times patricia.
PS oh, and I never mentined it to my mom!
I agree asitis that these kids need some education and might not be getting it. The problem occurs when deciding what information to give them and from what perspective. Would you agree to teaching all children sexuality based only on the Catholic Church’s teaching? This would never pass in today’s culture and maybe should not. However some are suggesting that we use a liberal approach to teaching sexuality, and we should accept this only because kids need it?
Would you agree to teaching all children sexuality based only on the Catholic Church’s teaching?
I don’t think Virginia will line up for this one Jeff. After all she’s an ex-Catholic.
Who would educate those kids who don’t have parents to do it? And if so, why do we have to apply this across the board to all kids?
“Would you agree to teaching all children sexuality based only on the Catholic Church’s teaching?”
Oh yeah! A TOTB text in every class.
Bobby: you rock! Well the young couple in this post has a bit of understanding about their sexuality being a gift to one another. That’s nothing to sneeze at!
oh you were serious? What makes you think teens will follow it jeff when many ( most? Almost all?) catholic adults don’t?
“Who would educate those kids who don’t have parents to do it? And if so, why do we have to apply this across the board to all kids?”
The kids with no parents would be taught by whomever is caring for them, just like all other kids. In this world, children live in a variety of homes and while we would like to influence them all in some way, it is up to their guardian to take care of that responsibility.
I do like the idea of TOTB in every class. Nothing like the truth!
This way they would actually learn it. Probably every single Catholic who rebels against the Church’s teaching on sexuality could not articulate a single point of the TOTB.
I do like the idea of TOTB in every class. Nothing like the truth!
Posted by: Jeff at December 3, 2008 5:35 PM
Jeff: you rock too! I am a huge fan of TOTB! I believe this should be taught in high school instead of the psycho pap that is taught now. It’s not rocket science and it’s easily understandable for anyone.
And Virginia: the Catholic adults that don’t follow the teachings of the church are THE big losers. They just don’t realize it yet.
If you don’t know what the TOTB includes Virginia you cannot criticize it. You need to learn it and evaluate it. Your an ex scientist right? Go to it.
asitis, No I was not serious, I was pointing out that I would not expect you to accept my position on sex-ed anymore than I should except yours. What if we just used the puritan model that might say “spirit good, body bad” and treat sexuality as a negative. I’m kidding. Except for some basic biology let’s leave it to the parents. But all parents should check out Theology of the Body!
But all parents should check out Theology of the Body!
Posted by: Jeff at December 3, 2008 5:56 PM
absolument!
The difference is Jeff, that comprehensive sex works. Catholic teachings (no IVF, no BC, no extramarital sex) do not. Plain and simple.
Patricia, once a scientist, always a scientist. No ex about it!
Oh, and you;ve got a lot of BIG LOSERS at Sunday mass with you then Patricia!
“he difference is Jeff, that comprehensive sex works. Catholic teachings (no IVF, no BC, no extramarital sex) do not. Plain and simple.”
Look at our society, how can you say it works? That’s like locking up criminals with no therapy or counseling or using the death penalty to solve problems of crime. Birth control does not get to the root of the problem it only makes it worse. In fact it is the problem. It does not address a woman’s dignity it actually degrades them. Let’s have higher standards than that.
“he difference is Jeff, that comprehensive sex works. Catholic teachings (no IVF, no BC, no extramarital sex) do not. Plain and simple.”
You cannot say this with any certainty simply because Catholic teachings have not been emphasized nor emplaced in our school system for over 35 years. There is a new Catechism now and the wonderful teachings on human sexuality by JP II. Instead of swallowing whole the crap put forth by the media Virginia you should borrow a copy of TOTB and try reading it. Read some of Christopher West’s books which present the teachings in very understandable ways. If you are not the EX scientist, then prove it. One doesn’t have to be Catholic to read it – after all sexuality is part of the human condition.
I know of many couples who have remained chaste and have excellent marriages. And there are a lot of young people today who are not buying the sexual revolution of the baby boomers – they have seen the grief it’s brought. STD’s, failed marriages, sterility. There is not one young adult in my group of friends who is sexually active. Not one. And several are on their way towards marriage at this time. One young couple, the man is on our local radio station, is chaste. His brother is in the seminary in Toronto!
I think you’d like to believe that everyone is just like you Virginia but there are alot of good Catholics out there going about their business and living holy lives quietly. Having a good batch of kids and passing on the faith. And along with them are the new crop of orthodox young priests filled with fervour for Christ.
BTW: what is a BIG LOSER to you Virginia? Someone with no sex partners, 2 sex partners? lots of sex partners but no STD?s? I’d be interested to know!
Wow, birth control degrades woman? That’s a good one. You see how many woman would agree with you on that one Jeff. I use birth control and in no way do I feel degraded or less dignified.
No, we need better education and clear expectations given to teens about being committed to the prevention of pregancy and STD’s when/if sexually active.
So Chris weren’t the German girls using the men for citizenship?
I don’t need a man for anything, well if I meet a really good one hopefully we can get married and have children but until then… I’m not looking for citizenship or love or a house or a ring, right now I just want to have fun. And guess what? It’s fun to go out and date and dance and kiss.
Moral outrage is envy with a halo. Sorry losers > )
Patricia I was using your definition of BIG LOSER : Catholic’s that don’t follow the church’s teachings. That would include Catholics using birth control, IVF, engaging in sex before marriage, being Pro-life…. All I said was there are alot of these BIG LOSERS in mass with you on Sunday. Your definition Patricia.
Reality is that society is not going to go backward on things like birth control and IVF. Nor should we.
BTW I’m not a prostitute, I’m not going to exchange sex or even a kiss for money or a big fancy wedding or even a diamond ring. If you’re hot and funny lets hang out and make out, it’s a good time.
“Oh I know, I was just making a point that this couple was apparently correct in their assumption that kissing is an obvious physical precursor to sex.”
Oh wow well I’ve been kissing my Grandma since I was a baby and I’ve yet to have sex with her. I don’t even see it happening in the future. Too bad, looks like she’s getting socks for Christmas again : (
Stop calling evil good.
Posted by: Chris Arsenault at December 3, 2008 9:54 AM
Nothing evil about having sex before marriage. Nothing evil about that at all. In a free society, adults make their own choices about such things. The couple in this post decided not to, fine by me. But don’t hold them up as the model for the rest of us. Sex between consenting adults IS a completely valid activity than many, many people find fulfilling and an important part of who they are. If it didn’t work out for you, I’m sorry. I’ve had a few sexual experiences that weren’t the best idea in retrospect. No bid deal. I’ve had bad days at work too. I’ve had jobs that I didn’t like too much. Life is full of ups and downs, I do not believe my marriage is in anyway hurt by the fact I kissed my wife (and a few other people) before we exchanged our vows.
Jess, obviously kissing and necking refer to the sort of kisses one does not give her grandmother.
“I didn’t dress like a hooker when I was 5 years old.”
Yeah Patricia they’re really asking for it from the pedophiles right? They are FIVE YEARS OLD. Are they buying those clothes? No there parents are. And you’re leaving it up to the parents to teach them sex ed? Good plan.
Jess, grow up.
None of the people I know who were virgins on their wedding day were “holding out” to get a big story book wedding and shiny ring.
They had respect for themselves, and their future spouse.
Hal, there are obvious negatives to sex. Even comprehensive sex ed states that we should strive to delay first sexual encounter, limit overall number of both partners and encounters, and strive for singular, not serial monogamy.
Those goals come from the most liberal sex-ed group out there. There are tons of implications from premarital sex, very few of which are positive.
Hm Lauren someone should tell yllas that.
You know in some Muslim cultures women cover their whole bodies including their faces when in public because they feel it distracts men from their personalities? I bet they would consider you one big hussy huh? Showing off your face to every man you meet, distracting them with the sight of your checks it’s disgusting. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk (glimpse of a wrist) for free?
They probably have the lowest rates of premarital sex. Why don’t we all take to wearing burqas? Heck I’m on board.
Lauren, I’ll agree that delaying first sexual encounter to age 18 or above is a good thing. I’ve not go beef with serial monogamy, nor non-monogamy if people are honest and careful. I’m not a fan of “casual sex” (one night stands, etc) but if I’m honest, I’d have to admit some of the women I became intimate with on the day we met became serious and wonderful relationships. You never know.
This one’s mine:
http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2008/03/burkaburberryAP_450x350.jpg
Jess, what are you talking about. I never said anything about anyone’s dress.
Hal, the problem with serial monogamy is that it opens individuals up to more STD’s and that in turn spreads more STD’s around society.
“Jess, grow up.
None of the people I know who were virgins on their wedding day were “holding out” to get a big story book wedding and shiny ring.
They had respect for themselves, and their future spouse.”
So I guess they went the quiet and tasteful way and had a small ceremony and reception in their parents home? A wedding is usually something to fulfill an immature woman’s “princess complex.” Do you know how much the wedding industry makes? Most couples get divorced because of financial reasons. When you start out your marriage up to your eyes in debt over some big party you can’t afford to throw no wonder.
Well, there’s a big difference between a fews years of serial monogamy at a time and a few days of it. I think most people mean monogamy in a relationshiop for the duration of the relationship, which generally last a few years or more. That’s not a huge public health risk.
Lauren you said kissing leads to sex well I’m sure the vast majority of people who have premarital sex show off their foreheads.
Yes, actually Jess, they were. I don’t know a single person who spent more than 1500 on the entire wedding, reception, and honeymoon combined.
I got my dress at goodwill and had my future mother in law rebuild it. My reception was at a community center. We were married at our home church, for free.
Our wedding was most certainly not to make me fulfill some sort of “princess complex”. All of my married friends had similar ceremonies.
The only couple I know who had the big shabang were in their 30’s, had been living together for years, and got divorced within 2 years.
Oh yeah Virginia, you’re correct. Those Catholics who chose to follow Kate Michelman and Charles Curran are losers. You sound a tad bitter….
Hal, it actually is. Just a rise of .2% of average number of partners raises the community risk exponentially. The link I posted earlier in the thread has the breakdown to get the exact numbers, but they’re quite shocking.
Jess, you got me. You have completely flawless logic. In that vein, I propose a new argument. Jess’ name starts with a J there fore she believes that robots are going to take over the world!
Here are the numbers, Hal. :)
For example, modeling of sexual networks has
shown that if a large group of sexually active
people all have between one and three partners,
for a mean of 1.7 partners, and they increase
their mean number of partners to 1.9, an increase
of only 0.2 partner, the percentage of people who
are in the same sexual network would rise from 2
percent to 64 percent, resulting in a vastly larger
sexual network [43] (see Figure 2-1). This is a
huge increase, and it demonstrates the impact
that number of partners can have on the size of
sexual networks through which STDs may be
transmitted. Thus, lowering the number of sexual
partners by only a small amount can substantially
reduce the size of sexual networks and the number
of STD infections among a population.
Fromhttp://www.thenationalcampaign.org/EA2007/EA2007_full.pdf
A wedding is usually something to fulfill an immature woman’s “princess complex.”
Ya know what Jess: I’m finally gonna say it: you are full of crap! Period. Do you ever read the junk you write here?
What a lame excuse for not getting married. You don’t have to have a big wedding. The wedding is to share publicly your committment for life to your spouse.
Aren’t they lauren?
I want to elope.
I want to get married in some small little clerks office on a rainy day and I want to wear a grey dress. Unfortunately I don’t think I’ll ever meet a man who is as good a man as my father. I just can’t settle for less : (
Jess, you bet. They’re actually reading what we write right now, and just waiting to pounce!
Jess, I’m a big fan.
Lauren, that’s a .2 decrease, not a .2% decrease. Big difference. But I get your point.
Still, what can we do, I don’t recognize marriage any more anyway.
Well Patricia maybe in Canada…
From V at ViolentAcres.com,
“The largest wedding I ever attended had live music and an open bar only stocked with top shelf alcohol. For dinner, we had a 7 course meal and the main course was salmon and filet mignon. The bride wore a gown worth more than my car at the time and she flew in a prominent photographer from New York to take her pictures. The theme of the wedding was ‘Tropical Paradise’ and each table sported a crystal fishbowl complete with live fighting fish. It was absolutely gorgeous.
Four years later, when the bride and groom finally got divorced, they were still paying it off, too.”
I’ve seen it first hand as well.
You’re right hal, I was pulling the numbers from memory and didn’t realize I had misrepresented the data after I posted the link. Though, as you say it’s still a significant increase in sexual connections for a relatively minor increase in sexual averages.
Hl, what do you mean you “don’t recognize marriage”?
Do you mean that you don’t recognize marriage as an institution or that you don’t recognize what marriage has become?
Patricia I have no idea what you are talking about @ 7:15pm. I was just repeating your words.
What would I have to be bitter about? I’m in the majority. And I’m quite happy about my life and where it has taken me…………….
Jess, I think there tends to be an inverse correlation between amount of money spent on a wedding and the amount of time the marriage lasts.
I have only anecdotal evidence to back this up, but it seems to me that is how it usually plays out.
This is my wedding dress:
http://www.modcloth.com/store/ModCloth/Womens/Dresses/Name+it+and+Win+it+Day+9+in+Silver
And then my husband and I will go down to the boat docks and have champagne and cupcakes.
Jess, You ARE a breath of fresh air!
Way to rock the burqa!
Well, there’s a big difference between a fews years of serial monogamy at a time and a few days of it. I think most people mean monogamy in a relationshiop for the duration of the relationship, which generally last a few years or more. That’s not a huge public health risk.
Posted by: hal at December 3, 2008 7:08 PM
really? So over the course of a woman’s reproductive years, if every 5 years she changes partners that would mean 5 partners from age 20 to age 40. However, the average length of a cohabitational relationship is often much less than 5 years. So a woman will end up having many more partners than just 5. This is not healthy in any way.
National average is 7.
I’ve had sex with more than 5 men (but NOT at one time… budda boom!). And I’m way healthy!
BTW Patricia (40-20)/5=4, not 5
What would I have to be bitter about? I’m in the majority. And I’m quite happy about my life and where it has taken me…………….
Posted by: asitis at December 3, 2008 7:29 PM
for what shall it profit a man (or woman!) if he gain the world but lose his soul…..*sigh*
Jess, I like the dress, though I will say it is a bit “princessy” ;)
Asitis, the key it seems if one wishes to have serial monogamy is to only sleep with men who are virgins.
Of course, outside of highschool(and even then, you never know), it is impossible to really know the sexual history of any given partner. Thus, you leave yourself open to any order of diseases.
Well, yes that’s true Lauren. If you want to be 100% risk free for STD’s, only have sex with virgins (that don’t have HIV from some other means) or don’t have sex at all. There are risks in everything pretty much. But it doesn’t stop us from riding in a car, playing hockey, skiing, flying over a fence on horseback, etc. Best to buckle up, wear a helmet and enjoy the ride.
Right asitis? People still climb Mt. Everest and there are dead bodies still stuck on the trails.
Since we’re sharing pictures. I’ll show you what a dress from goodwill can look like if you happen to be blessed with a seamstress for a mother in law.
I edited Oliver out in case he doesn’t want his picture up all over the internet. :)
asitis, but in choosing to have multiple partners you choose to put other lives at risk.
Grr, I tried to post a picture of my wedding dress to show the wonders of Goodwill, but it got held up in moderation. Oh well.
Exactly! That’s what I’m talking about!
(They just weren’t smart enough to come prepared. Probably thought they’d never climb to the top or just didn’t know any better)
wrong Virginia. I know you pride yourself on doing gr 2 math BUT:
a partner at 20, 25 30 35 and 40 IS FIVE partners at least…. :-D
I’ve had sex with more than 5 men (but NOT at one time… budda boom!). And I’m way healthy!
Posted by: asitis at December 3, 2008 7:35 PM
way to brag. I think this is what prostitutes use to do, only 20 years ago….
Right asitis? People still climb Mt. Everest and there are dead bodies still stuck on the trails.
Posted by: Jess at December 3, 2008 7:46 PM
yes and the last time I remember, people are now leaving others to die on Mt Everest. I really love this comparison for this topic……
No one was complaining at the time Lauren! And they are all alive and well.
Lordy, it’s a wonder there are many of us left walking this planet with all these people endangering all these lives.
asitis, well 1/3 of young sexually active people have at least one STD, so many people are definitely being affected.
Hmmm. With the national average at 5, and 75% of that with an average of 9, I don’t think I have big bragging rights. And I don’t plan on gettting any further ahead seeing as I’m very happily married.
What percentage of STD cases are life-threatening Lauren, because you are talking about – putting lives at risk. C’mon give me some math to do….
according to CDC report 2008, 40% of sexually active teens have an STD
50% of the teens who had more than 3 partners were infected
3.2 million US teen girls have an STD
See but that’s the thing Patricia…. I don’t want to leave those people to die on Everest. I want them to all have received comprehensive sex ed. You missed the metaphor
no these people WERE properly prepared with oxygen tanks and the equipment (all the sex education)
except the preparation didn’t work because something unforseen happened…(ya know like a condom breaking…)
and then they were left to die while others are continuing on (boyfriend abandons pregnant girlfriend who then is forced to have abortion and he moves on to the next conquest)
so your analogy is good but not the way you see it..
Very good Patricia. Yes, some of them were the victims of unforeseen circumstances and just bad luck. But the majority were unprepared or didn’t use their equipment properly. That’s how it REALLY is up there on Mt Everest. Best plan is to consider that you may make it to the top, come educated and propared, always use your equipment properly. Of course, you could stay at ground level and never climb Mt Everest, but most people eventually decide they really want to and do.
Patricia! Excellent!! :)
Lauren, good posts as well. :)
not really V. I’ve done alot of reading on Mt Everest and many people especially in recent years have lost their lives due to unforseen situations (snowsqualls, crevasse accidents, illness)
the people that wait and do it properly (those who wait until marriage) have a much better chance of succeeding
the people who are not prepared or are too hasty to climb (not married) are the ones who run into trouble.
soome make several attempts (like those in relationship after relationship) but once they follow the guidelines given us they usually do very well
and those that make it to the top even though they came ill-prepared sometimes don’t make it back down (failed marriages) because they didn’t plan well
Lauren, 7:47
I also got my wedding dress from a thrift store…for only 30.00 and it was beautiful!
And coincidentally, my mother in law was the seamtress who made it fit. :) And my sister in law made my veil.
You can see it here:
http://images.quickblogcast.com/37967-35154/jamesme1.jpg
gotta run now. Thanks Eileen.
Patricia 8:35, superb.
Patricia, that wasn’t quite the metaphor Jess and I were talking about. Our Mt. Everest was premarital sex. Hence, my last sentence about most people choose to climb it eventually. Read it again and then you’ll see.
Bethany, it’s beautiful!
Isn’t it great to have talented mother in laws?
Here’s mine. I edited Oliver out in case he doesn’t want his picture online.
img368.imageshack.us/my.php?image=weddingpic3qg0.jpg
Lauren that is so beautiful- I love the lacey sleeves..and you were a gorgeous bride!
Thanks, Bethany. My mil added the sleves. They were originally sort of this weird bohemian thing, but she replaced them. We got married in December, so I was as pale as can be.:)
I love your veil, your sister in law did an amazing job.
I love looking back at wedding pictures. It’s so fun to see people “back then.” You and James are both so beautiful and look so happy.
I have mixed feelings about this couple. I think what they decided to do is GREAT and so deliciously counter-culture in a positive way. But the story seems to focus on the kiss-on-the-lips as THE special thing. I’m a lifelong cheek-kisser, myself, and believe that I would be the same if I were married. Society (and Hollywood, etc.) tend to portray the cheek-kiss as the “I see you more as just as friend” kiss, and that’s always bothered me. We aren’t all the same, and so the “hierarchy of affection” that some people have (hug means this, cheek-kiss means that, lip-lock means something else) simply doesn’t hold true for everybody. I don’t care what other people do, but are you gonna tell me that a sincere kiss on someone’s cheek whom you care about is meaningless and doesn’t “count,” while two people randomly making out at a frat party DOES? I’m not buyin’ it.
Hal: “Is this what you worry about? It never have occurred to me to worry about who my wife had kissed before, and certainly not be preoccupied with ‘pictures.'”
Hal, when a person may be about to experience something for the first time, (s)he often wants it to be the first time for the other person, too. That isn’t just true about sex or other physical things; it’s true about emotional ones, too.
Chris Arsenault: “Your comments indicate you have no idea about how men really think.”
Perhaps Jess doesn’t, but that’s only because not all men think the same way.
asitis: “Reality is that society is not going to go backward on things like birth control and IVF.”
I don’t consider eschewing those things to be backward. I do believe that better (and more) publicity for things like Natural Family Planning would greatly increase its popularity, given all of the benefits it has — the ones not always apparent at first glance.
Here’s mine.
Whoa, Lauren – what a CUTIE!
Bethany, that look on your face in that wedding picture is mighty precious.
Thanks, Lauren and Doug! :-)
Thanks, Doug.
I like the look on your husband’s too Bethany. So much love in that picture!
And Lauren, your smile is as lovely as the dress!
Have a good day all.
Beautiful brides!!
Here is my wedding dress story. Picked it up at a dry cleaners for $75. Rumor has it that some brides do not ever come back for their dresses. I tried on like 5!! There ya go.
Sweet Patricia, I missed your comment last night at 7:33. Let me explain it for you in more detail.
Let’s say your birthday is Feb 1 and on your 20th birthday you have sex with partner #1. 5 years later on Feb 1 you turn 25 and have sex with partner #2. 10 years later on Feb 1 at 30 years old partner #3, 15 years later on Feb 1 at 35 years partner #4, 20 years later on Feb 1 at 40 years old partner #5. But at 40 years old you are done. So you only had partner #5, 1 year.
Does this matter, well…. Consider if the years of concern were age 20 through 39 instead of 40. Then a new partner every 5 years would mean 4 partners. Wow, you’re saying then that 1 year less of sex would reduce my number of partners by 20%!
Or look at it this way: If the rate were a new partner every 4 years, you would have also had 5 partners (age 20,24,28,32,36) by age 40. The same number of partners you are saying you would have if the rate were every 5 years.
That last partner is there, sure, but you have to be careful with numbers. It about more than Grade 2 math Patricia, it’s about knowing numbers. How many people thought the new millenium started January 1, 2000? I bet you were one of them. See what I mean?
Carla, that’s a great story. Someone could start a small business with that tip!
I spent a whole day with my parents trying on dresses. When I finally walked out of the dressing room wearing a certain big pale pink and white confection (it was the 80’s!) and my dad had tears in his eye, I knew I had found “the one”.
Virginia,
I like your story too! :)
It is a tip I tell all my friends. They call dry cleaners far and wide to get the same deal!!
Thanks. The story means alot to me too (I so miss my dad!) Well, I’m stealing your tip!
Maybe it’s just the kind of small business idea for these economic times. Plus I like the way it fits in with Reduce REUSE Recycle. Genius!
Something like… Born Again Bridal (Gowns)?
Very good, Virginia!! The dry cleaners only want to recoup their cleaning costs.
I am sorry about your dad. I am thankful that you have those wonderful memories of him. My dad called 2 weeks before my wedding to say he wasn’t walking me down the aisle. Ah, the baggage…..:)
Carla, that’s very sad. I hppe you have patched things up and he is now a wonderful grandfather, sharing your children’s childhood. Yes?
My only concern walking down the aisle (well, it was actually a lawn… a Catholic priest married us at my parents’ house. Shhhhh don’t tell the archdiocese) was that I don’t turn into a blubbering mess on my dad’s arm. Just as we were stepping off the doorstep he gave my hand a squeeze and I said “Oh, great..” and with that we both got teary eyes! And I was his fourth daughter to walk down the aisle. I had him there, but he passed away in 2000 when my boys were young and he missed seeing them grown up. He would be so proud of them (and yes,me!).
Call your Dad….. We don’t have them forever.
Haven’t seen my mom, dad or 2 sisters in 6 years. They don’t even know my two youngest. It was not a one time deal. A lifetime of abuse and rejection led up to it. Made leaving and cleaving a lot easier. :)
It is not like I told them I never wanted to see them again. After the Christmas fiasco of 2001, I stopped pursuing them. I couldn’t have my children around the ugliness.
I understand what you are saying. I do. I cannot pursue their “love” anymore. I pursue my own precious little fam.
The description of your dad walking you down the aisle takes my breath away and moves me in a way I cannot describe.
My daughter will have that. :)
Carla, I had to swallow a lump in my throat just to write those words. I have no doubt your children will have that. And may they walk down the aisle as we both did into the arms of the right man.
I hear what you are saying about your parents. Completely. Something I heard before was it’s always good to leave a door open just in case. Maybe send a card or photo once in awhile. Some way that it gives them a way to reach out if they do change. I grew up not knowing one of my sets of grandparents for similar reasons and I wish I had known them as my older siblings had.
The photos and letters I have sent are all returned. So there’s that.
I did receive a Christmas card out of the blue 2 years ago from my sister. They know the door is always open. Until then I continue to heal. I heart talk therapy. :)
That’s very sad Carla. Maybe someday they’ll change. It sounds like your sister… maybe? Sisters are a gift. I have 4 (and three brothers) and one I am very close to. Despite all the girlfriends you have, there is something special about a sister. I hope she comes back to you.
Peace.
Thank you Virginia.
You are very blessed indeed. Wow. Big family!! God has sent many, many sisters to me.
My grandpa “walked”(he didn’t really walk, just stood there at the alter and I came to him) me down the isle. In retrospect, I wish I would have had my dad do it, but at the time I didn’t have much of a relationship with him.
Though I do have some good memories of my Grandpa, the truth is he is kind of a jerk, and my dad is one of the nicest people in the world. But, by design of my mother, my grandpa was much more involved in my life so the honor fell to him.
Hmmm. Kinda makes me think that a wedding is more than the sart of a marriage and a promise of a future together. It’s a snapshot of our lives up that point. Something to be said for gathering all your friends and family and having a ceremony as opposed to going to the courthouse with a couple witnesses.
Asitis, that’s why we ultimately decided to have the ceremony and not just be married privately by our pastor.
My grandmother has a condition called Normal Pressure Hydrocephalous. Basically, she has too much fluid in her brain. Over the past 10 years or so leading up to my wedding it had gotten progressively worse, to the point that she couldn’t walk without assitance and could no longer write. We wanted to make sure that she could really experience our wedding.
I’m glad we did, because shortly after we were married she had surgery for her condition and complications left her in a coma for quite some time. Whne she regained conciousness, she fell and suffered massive head trama and is now at probably 1/4 of the cognitive ability she once had. I’m glad she was able to experience our wedding and can now look at the pictures of me in my dress. It helps her to remember that I’m an adult now and that I’m married and that she has 2 great-grandkids.
Also, asitis, I think you owe it to the world to show us pictures of your crazy 80’s dress. :)
I will! I have to scan a photo later when I’m up home. I even have the mushroom haircut to go with it!
C:\Documents and Settings\Ginny\My Documents\My Scans\2008-12 (Dec)
Lauren… help this newbie! How do I dump a scanned photo into comments?
Oops, somehow my comment didn’t go through!
I upload pictures to imageshack.
http://www.imageshack.us
Once uploaded you can get the link and post it here. :)
The picture needs to be a compatible file type. I know that .jpeg files work on Jill’s site, so I use them.
1. Go to the ImageShack site.
2. Click on “Browse.”
3. Find the picture you want, then double-click on it, or single-click then click “Open” or however you have to do it on your computer to select it.
4. Back in the ImageShack window, click “Host It!”
5. In the next screen you can choose thumbnail links toward the top or hotlinks farther down. I usually use “Hotlink for Websites” because I know that works on Jill’s site.
6. Copy the link then paste it into the “Post a Comment” screen, and you should be good.
Let’s say your birthday is Feb 1 and on your 20th birthday you have sex with partner #1. 5 years later on Feb 1 you turn 25 and have sex with partner #2. 10 years later on Feb 1 at 30 years old partner #3, 15 years later on Feb 1 at 35 years partner #4, 20 years later on Feb 1 at 40 years old partner #5. But at 40 years old you are done. So you only had partner #5, 1 year.
Does this matter, well…. Consider if the years of concern were age 20 through 39 instead of 40. Then a new partner every 5 years would mean 4 partners. Wow, you’re saying then that 1 year less of sex would reduce my number of partners by 20%!
Or look at it this way: If the rate were a new partner every 4 years, you would have also had 5 partners (age 20,24,28,32,36) by age 40. The same number of partners you are saying you would have if the rate were every 5 years.
That last partner is there, sure, but you have to be careful with numbers. It about more than Grade 2 math Patricia, it’s about knowing numbers. How many people thought the new millenium started January 1, 2000? I bet you were one of them. See what I mean?
Posted by: asitis at December 4, 2008 7:03 AM
what is the big hairy deal in all this? MY POINT WAS: multiple partners over the span of a woman’s reproductive lifetime. Not good. For the woman, for the man nor for the family.
let’s put this sucker to bed! Yes?
if you take necessary precautions and are smart it can be very ;) good. Just like playing hockey!
Living proof. Putting this sucker to bed…….
if you take necessary precautions and are smart it can be very ;) good. Just like playing hockey!
Living proof. Putting this sucker to bed…….
Posted by: asitis at December 4, 2008 2:24 PM
huh? precautions about what? Protecting your heart? we are talking about the no of partners and the havoc this lifestyle causes…
that’s the point.
maybe you enjoyed living this lifestyle but current research demonstrates that many women do not and are unwilling to suffer the risks it entails…..
you may be living proof that the lifestyle might “work” for some asitis, but who knows the truth really eh? How many men did you hurt along the way, while you “protected” yourself?
Oh, I’m sure I left a trail of broken hearts Patricia ;). You are all doom and gloom aren’t you? Can’t stand to see people believe and live differently than you and be quite fine and happy and healthy and successful at life? I get the feeling you are not really in this for the sake of others.
Oh, I’m sure I left a trail of broken hearts Patricia ;). You are all doom and gloom aren’t you? Can’t stand to see people believe and live differently than you and be quite fine and happy and healthy and successful at life? I get the feeling you are not really in this for the sake of others.
Posted by: asitis at December 4, 2008 6:10 PM
You notice this person began as a Catholic, but became the perfect Protestant. Wealth, Health and the Power of being a typical striver in life.
Can you say, Protestant envy?
And sooo important to Jill, she invites this perfect example of the bourgeoisie to have a platform to inform us of her petty travels about the world.
A Earth Science degree?
Get a real job you striver.
Now, class, once upon a time there were dinosours running about the world. Can you name dead animals for me class?
Sounds like some sour grapes you’ve got there yllas.
Oh man, asitis, you have no idea. My advice is to ignore Yllas. I’m 99.999% sure she/he’s a troll.
Thanks for the warning lauren. I’ll ignore him/her. (lalalalalalal.. fingers in ears… lalalalalal)
BTW lauren (and doug) thanks for the instructions for photos. I’ll send you my 80’s meringue of a dress lauren later. I have to get to bed now. “Petty travel” tomorrow (can’t help myself) to the Great White North.
Oh, I’m sure I left a trail of broken hearts Patricia ;). You are all doom and gloom aren’t you? Can’t stand to see people believe and live differently than you and be quite fine and happy and healthy and successful at life? I get the feeling you are not really in this for the sake of others.
Posted by: asitis at December 4, 2008 6:10 PM
asitis: I find it interesting that many lapsed Catholics and proabort liberals act as if their “choices” affect absolutely no one else. Hopefully, some day you will understand that this is not the case.
oh and btw asitis: i don’t think you have a valid catholic marriage if the ceremony was preformed outside of a Catholic church, for example in a park.
Weddings must be done inside the Catholic Church to be correct in form. Same goes with the vows – I don’t believe you can make up the vows either.
Not that it matters much to you…..
Typical Protestant,
You think people are eating sour grapes from being a typical Protestant. Infested with Health, Wealth and the Power of being able to kill what you don’t want to exist.
As for Lauren,
You and that Jill needed, anti-life troll named Atisis, have quite a bit in common. You having a God that needs not humans to exist, and that needed anti-life poster, Atisis, who needs not humans to exist, unless it advances her striving for more Wealth, Health and the Power the formentioned brings.
Ok from Canon law:
Can. 1118 §1. A marriage between Catholics or between a Catholic party and a non-Catholic baptized party is to be celebrated in a parish church. It can be celebrated in another church or oratory with the permission of the local ordinary or pastor.
§2. The local ordinary can permit a marriage to be celebrated in another suitable place.
§3. A marriage between a Catholic party and a non-baptized party can be celebrated in a church or in another suitable place.
so there is a loophole with “another suitable place” but I know this is generally frowned upon.
The local ordinary must give permission though.
Its an interesting question.
Don’t leave yet Atisis,
All you have, is taken from the poor. The less fortunate, who had a need, which you gave only if it increased your striving for more Wealth, Health and the power to leave those poors no better then you met then.
Patricia, I think you are absolutely right @10:28. We didn’t want to get married in a church seeing as neither of us go to church. My mom wanted the priest, not me. And he said yes to coming to the house, provided we “didn’t mention that in any newspaper submission”.
Well asitis: you are at least honest about it.
I think in a case such as yours, it would be better NOT to be married in a church. Many Catholics marry in the church never to be seen again. This is wrong. The church is only the setting for these couples.
If i’m not mistaken, you came from a family of 8? So your parents must have been good Catholics. Your mother must not be too happy about this? Are you raising the children Catholic? Just wondering? And wondering why you discarded your faith?
From your posts I’m guessing you are from Toronto.
I’m from the Toronto area. But we were married in the US.
We’re my parents “good Catholics”? Well, I don’t know if they used birth control if that’s what you mean. And I don’t know if they had premarital sex. We went to church every Sunday. My mother wasn’t raised catholic, she converted when she was in her 30’s. My dad was always Catholic and he really believed in his church. But he let us choose our own way and was never unhappy nor judgemental about our choices as adults. I think in your book, he wouldn’t be a real Catholic but neither would the vast majority of Catholics. Not being mean, just being honest. He was a a very good man, through and through. Of all the children only one of us is Catholic still and she is very involved, but is Pro-Choice, totally for birth control and IVF. At first my mom was opposed to the fact that I was living with my husband for a few years prior to marriage but she got over that.
Why did I discard my faith? Well, I think my faith was never very strong. I just don’t believe in God. And I don’t like alot of things about the Catholic church’s teachings. I’m sure by now you know what I don’t like.
Sorry, I missed the part about do I raise my kids Catholic? No, I don’t at all. But have always told them that if they ever want to visit a church, we can. But they have never wanted to. Perhaps when they are older they might change their minds, but I don’t think that will be the case. If it is, of course I will be okay with that decision. It is theirs to make.
If you are wondering this because in getting married by a priest you have to promise to raise your kids catholic (Is this the case?), I was up front about that when I met with the priest beforehand. He knew our intentions. I guess if it is a rule, it’s another one they bend.
so I guess what you are saying is that your parents were Sunday Catholics – although it seems your father was a strong Catholic but had the typical Catholic aversion to trying to pass on the faith. Perhaps he felt that if he called you in on your beliefs, he would only alienate you further.
I don’t know how you would know my ideas of a real Catholic. Many Catholics struggle over their faith. I certainly did. But I went out and learned about my faith and tried to understand how it was applicable to my life.
However, my point is that eventually with honest struggle and intellectual searching, most could come back if they wanted. That’s the crucial point – they have to want to. I think many Catholic’s live lives so remotely removed from Catholic beliefs that their “guilt” (and it IS guilt) effectively prevents them from truly searching and seeking the answers to their questions. It takes alot of courage and humility to face up to the fact that one has done something very wrong, even if at the time we thought it was the best course of action. Humility is not a prized virtue in today’s world.
Most Catholics my age are reverts, for heaven’s sake. I find it sad that you refer to yourself as a “recovering Catholic” as though your faith was a disease. Nevertheless, Virginia, you were likely baptised a Catholic and are still Catholic. That “Catholic” mark remains on your soul.
I think your family reflects the state of the Church today and how poorly our parents and the priests did in passing on this faith.
My parents fortunately, were a little more successful: two of three siblings are devout prolife Catholics. My mom was a very devout Catholic who prayed every single day for all of us. I know her prayers were very very powerful in my own life. My dad is a Sunday Catholic meaning he does not have any other devotions, but he abhors abortion, birth control and thinks women are very stupid to sleep around and live with men. He quite rightly predicted years ago that cohabitation would soon be the norm.
Patricia I am happy for you that you have something you believe in and that it helps you live a good life. Everyone needs that. For some it’s God, for some it’s not.
You are wrong is saying that I have guilt. I do not. I gave that up with the church. To have the guilt you have to have the beliefs. I do not have the same beliefs you have. Those are yours.
Finally how would I know what you think a real Catholic is? You told me in a comment earlier this week that Catholics who are Pro-choice, for IVF and for birth control are not real Catholics. Remember? I replied that without those Catholics YOU’D have to travel over an hour to church.
Patricia I just remembered something: A couple days ago when I said I was raised Catholic you told me to stop pretending I am Catholic, because I am not a Catholic. To which I replied, Did I say I was a catholic? Because I’m not.
Now you are trying to tell me I am Catholic. What???? I still maintain that I am not catholic. But for soem reason, now you are trying to tell me I am. It makes no sense to me. I think you are just being argumentative or want me to own some kind of guilt I don’t have.
I think that most of the catholics who show up for Sunday Mass now are the only ones who are actually practicing the faith to any degree.
I know most churches are now empty but the young families that come are having kids and lots of them. So while there may not be many at church anymore, those that come seem to be following the church teachings. This is a good thing.
I’d rather this than a church filled to the rafters with contracepting aborting, secular catholics who march up to receive the Holy Eucharist in mortal sin and who have too much pride to go to confession. Apparently Pope Benedict thinks so too. He’s made it quite clear that he will not be changing church moral teaching and time soon. Truth is truth. Period.
When I said that Catholics who have the liberal secular humanist morals are losers – I did not mean it in a derogatory manner -although I see you took it that way (not surprising- why? I wonder) but that you have lost the beauty of your faith. Somehow that beauty was never conveyed to you, either through your parents in living out their vocation, or/and by the priests you came in contact with throughout your youth. That is the great tragedy – although I recognize you don’t think so…..
Patricia I think you are not being realistic when you say those that come to church follow the church’s teaching. US bishops even acknowledge that 96% of their floock use birth control. Check this out:
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/11/15/bishops_stress_sexual_issues_and_warn_on_communion/
And this from a room full of old men!
I know plenty of Catholics Patricia and they all use birth control. I’m just saying…………
yes I agree asitis, but in parishes where the priest is faithful to the magisterium, those attending church are for the most part faithful and these parishes are experiencing a vibrant faith with numerous vocations.
My parish priest had people leave and he also warned our local MP that he was putting his soul in danger by voting for same-sex marriage and that he would refuse him Holy Communion. The MP left as did many well-heeled parishoners.
However, in an interesting twist, we had new parishoners come in who paid for a new altar, painting and refurbishing of the church, and the rectory has just be redone (it was big enough for NINE priests). WE also have two men in the seminary and one female religious vocation.
This is the new evangelization. Many young parents have 3, 4 and 5 kids.
The parishes where BC is rampant will die in the same way that the countries who have rampant abortion and BC are demographically dying.
So where you see the status quo V I see renewal,in its infancy, but eventually becoming a tidal wave someday.
I bet these two have God’s blessings, which is most important of all! It appears these two have the total respect and faithfulness to make a marriage work. It’s too bad more people don’t see the truth as these two do.
anon: I totally agree. But you know sometimes I wonder if it’s a case of pearls before swine! :-D
“Patricia I think you are not being realistic when you say those that come to church follow the church’s teaching. US bishops even acknowledge that 96% of their floock use birth control.”
The mainstream media often use the word “Catholics” very flexibly. They’ll take a poll of people who call themselves Catholic, even those who haven’t set foot in a church in ten years, and they’ll include them in the “47% of Catholics disagree on x, y, and z”…conveniently omitting the fact that a large portion of respondents aren’t practicing Catholics. This is done, I believe, to give viewers the impression that all people who were polled are the people you can find in church every Sunday. Poll only those who attend Mass every week and on holy days, and you’ll get another story.
I’m in agreement bmmg39. Most people who are living together and using BC have NO use for the Catholic Church. People who are using IVF and who are aborting also have no need of the CC. They are not going to heed the teachings on any other area of their lives and they certainly are not going to be part of the Catholic community.
These people, strangely enough, show up when they want their kids baptized or to get Holy Communion and then once again disappear into the woodwork.
However, there are many young people, like Bobby Bambino here, who are solid practicing Catholics. These Catholics are the future of the Church. In fact, they ARE the church now.
The Virginia’s and Josephines in one sense are not – because they have chosen to separate themselves from the body of Christ by their lifestyle.