Weekend question
“Pro-choice” 150 years ago…
What’s the difference?
[HT: Facebook group Memeshock]
Mar.14, 2009 6:48 am |
Weekend question |
Commenting Rules
Do's
- “Criticize ideas, not people.”
- Create one original moniker and stick with it.
- Please use a unique name.
- Be civil and considerate.
- Read fully and consider carefully before responding.
Do Not's
- Blasphemy will not be tolerated.
- No swearing or slandering of others.
- No deliberate inflammatory comments.
- Do not violate another’s privacy.
- Do not threaten fellow commenters or anyone else.
- No personal, racial, ethnic or gender-based insults/slurs.
- Do not post private personal information about yourself or others.(ie addresses, phone #s)
Violations will be deleted and you may be banned.
Threats will be immediately reported to authorities.
Following these rules will make everyone's experience visiting JillStanek.com better.
Our volunteer moderators make prudent judgment calls to provide an open forum to discuss these issues. They reserve the right to remove any comment for any reason. Jill's decisions on such moderations are final.
Go to gravatar.com to create your avatar.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Brilliant – and my favorite analogy to invoke with the “government shouldn’t be involved” crowd. The federal government, as I see it, has very few responsibilities . Defend the borders, enable interstate commerce through assistance with infrstructure projects like roads and bridges that affect multiple states, and ensure that the basic individual rights spelled out in the constitution are upheld throughout the union under the law (“protecting the brand” of the US, so to speak). As life is the fundamental right guaranteed to protection under the law, no right to privacy or “choice” can ever be allowed to interfere with that right. Legalized infanticide is equivalent to legalized slavery (I almost said worse than, but if a slave is your property I suppose you are allowed to murder him or her). The answer is not to turn it back to the states. Yes, Roe is horribly decided – but the answer is an executive order followed by a constitutional amendment. It will unfortunately never happen under this charlatan of a president. By the way, one of my favorite organizations is Atheists for Life. I’m certainly not an atheist, but they get it – I’ve never looked at this as a religious issue. It’s not – it is a fubdamental MORAL issue and a civil rights one. And morals do not require the acceptance of a god.
Thanks Jill – this is a useful comparison to the much overused saying in the pro-death camp!
Tiller the Killer goes on trial this week. Some deal. He couldn’t be accused of misdemeanors if he didn’t commit crimes and perform abortions.
No difference
As a pro-choicer I find comparing abortion to slavery not only ludicrous but offensive. Slavery was something imposed on a whole group of people which condemned them to lives of misery , despair and degredation. Abortion is the tragic choice of an individual woman which often SAVES her developing fetus from a life of misery, despair and degredation.
If find it offensive when anti-choicers make it sound as though being pro-choice were as morally reprehensible as being pro slavery.
This is sheer intellectual dishonesty on the part of you self-righteous anti-choicers.
And again I ask; if you’re so opposed to abortion,why do you vote for conservative politicians who severely cut or eliminate programs to help the poor, which can and do prevent abortions ?
Robert is suggesting that an act of bloody violence against an unborn child will SAVE them from a life of misery. I guess if he lived 150 years ago he would have advocated euthanizing slaves to SAVE them from a life of misery.
Robert, as a liberal, I know this is hard to understand, but you should love your neighbor by rescuing them from their oppressor, not by murdering them.
“Abortion is the tragic choice of an individual woman which often SAVES her developing fetus from a life of misery, despair and degredation….
Posted by: Robert Berger at March 14, 2009 8:50 AM”
Only a monster devoid of the knowledge of God could write such words. You have no idea how lost you are.
Jill:
Mr. Barger’s comments are so heinous, so Nazi-like I am very surprised that you let them remain on this thread.
Then again, perhaps exposing the face of evil has some value.
RB 8:50am
YOU may find slavery abhorrent but not everyone would have agreed. Slave owners were “civilizing” and “Christianizing” what were viewed as “inferior” savages and heathens.
Slavery was a real favor to these people if anything.
No one was forced to own a slave. If you opposed slavery, fine. Don’t own one.
But don’t tell the man/woman with a plantation or large household to run what they can or cannot do. How can you possibly understand how difficult and expensive this would be without slaves? If they didn’t view black people as members of the human race that was their right.
We all have a right to our beliefs as to who or who isn’t human or just not quite human.
Robert says “Slavery was something imposed on a whole group of people which condemned them to lives of misery , despair and degredation. Abortion is the tragic choice of an individual woman which often SAVES her developing fetus from a life of misery, despair and degredation.”
Robert, can you not see that abortion is also imposed on a whole group of people? The pre-born are a class of individuals who we deny rights. They are, just as slaves were, called “non-person humans.”
As for your claim about being “saved” from a life of misery…Do you really believe that it is ok to kill someone to “save” them?
That’s beyond twisted.
Child Abuse and Crime are **still** rampant despite the claims of abortion rights supporters who said Child abuse would DECREASE if Abortion was legalized. Hmmmm……
Oh yes, lets save you from a life of poverty by killing you BEFORE you’re born….. *rolls eyes*
“As a pro-choicer I find comparing abortion to slavery not only ludicrous but offensive. Slavery was something imposed on a whole group of people which condemned them to lives of misery , despair and degredation. Abortion is the tragic choice of an individual woman which often SAVES her developing fetus from a life of misery, despair and degredation.
If find it offensive when anti-choicers make it sound as though being pro-choice were as morally reprehensible as being pro slavery.” posted by Robert
————————————————
Robert,
Abortion is every bit as morally reprehensible as slavery. Both are objectively, intrinsically evil because both devalue a human being and give a “stronger” person power over a weaker one’s very life. Abortion is also imposed on an entire class of human beings — the unborn. They are condemned to DEATH! They are given no voice, no choice, no rights whatsoever. They are deemed disposable if someone else so chooses. So which one of us is really anti-choice? I want the babies to have a choice to live!
The intellectual dishonesty here is yours.
US Society was already sick and now we are geting even sicker by financing the abortion industry worldwide and increasing funding of Planned Parenthood so they can put killing centers in neighborhoods throughout the US. Berger, your mother should abort you to save the rest of society from a life of misery.
Abortion is the tragic choice of an individual woman which often SAVES her developing fetus from a life of misery, despair and degredation.
Do you think it would be acceptable for someone to kill you, without your consent, to save you from a perceived life of misery, despair, and degredation, Robert Berger?
Mr. Berger, no one says that women are hate-mongers. By calling out the similarities between two arguments which justify biogtry we simply argue that history repeats itself for those who are unwilling to learn from others’ mistakes, much less their own follies. You may reserve your opinion but no human has the right to decide the fate of another, even in circumstances of poverty, to the point where that other’s life is considered less. I am not my mother’s property and she may not decide what will happen to me just to spare me from any wretchedness. Those of you who argue that abortion ought to be justifiable in this respect often then turn around and brag about what poor childhoods that you grew up in and then state how they made you a better person for it. Why should there be an exemption for you? All can grow from adversity if only someone will give then a voice with which to speak and lend them ears that listen.
And, Mr. Berger, what the poor do out of desperation is never a human right. It IS slavery and servitude of the poor to people such as yourself.
Abortion is the tragic choice of an individual woman which often SAVES her developing fetus from a life of misery, despair and degredation.
So, if we should kill people to save them from misery, despair, and degrAdation, why stop with the voiceless unborn?
Jail is a miserable experience. Should we kill all convicts to spare them despair and misery?
Perhaps widows should be immolated with their dead husbands, for the same reasons? Depsondent sorrow should really be avoided, and hey, it worked for the Vikings!
The porn industry is full of women who are degraded. Let’s send a death squad out to LA to take care of that.
Or do you only advocate killing human beings who can’t speak for themselves in order to “save” them from suffering, so you don’t have to hear their cries?
Mary,
You can reject God’s word if you like, but He does say that we
are all made in His image. So, no, you don’t have the right to
declare someone “not human” or “less than human”.
Our nation was founded on the belief that we are all created
equal and are endowed by our Creator with an inalienable
“right to life.’
The Declaration of Independence is America’s birth
certificate.
I pray your post was tongue in cheek.
The problem is that you are focusing on quality of life rather than a person’s rights, which are the morally pressing issue. I for one would prefer a second-rate quality life to no life at all.
“If find it offensive when anti-choicers make it sound as though being pro-choice were as morally reprehensible as being pro slavery.”
Well you surely must know as a fetal rights opponent that being for the choice for something isn’t the same as being for something. Right? I’m not saying that Jefferson or Stephen Douglas were pro-slavery. I mean who would ever have thought that? They only realized that slave-owners were faced with tough personal choices and that those choices were best left to them. In reality both of them were PERSONALLY pro-abolitionist. Right? :)
“This is sheer intellectual dishonesty on the part of you self-righteous anti-choicers.”
This is what anti-fetal rights extremists often say when they want to avoid the connection between allowing for a choice and advocating for that specific choice. I mean otherwise they would have to accept that they are the Stephen Douglas’s of our day.
“And again I ask; if you’re so opposed to abortion,why do you vote for conservative politicians who severely cut or eliminate programs to help the poor, which can and do prevent abortions ?”
As it turns out I am personally a little more soft when it comes to social programs. However, your thinking is a little backwards here. If you give someone money so that they do not rob a bank you can reduce bank robberies, however then you are held politically hostage by bank robbers. You don’t capitulate to people’s demands just because they say they will commit a crime if you don’t.
Leslie Hanks 1:47PM
Yes it was definitely tongue in cheek. I was using the PC arguments and applying them to slavery. That was the whole point of my post. I was being very facetious.
Jonathan Raatz in his 1:50PM post does the same thing in reference to Thomas Jefferson and Steven Douglas, applies PC arguments to the issue of slavery to make a point of how nonsensical some of these arguments are.
If you can’t see the difference between a breathing, thinking, fully-functioning black person and a mindless, insentient embryo inside of a woman, you certainly need more help than I can provide.
Slavery didn’t save anyone’s life. Abortions save women’s lives every day.
It all comes down to the way we think about mindless insentient embryos.
None of the other arguments hit the issue squarely
Why stop at babies destined for misery, despair and degradation? We can start eliminating toddlers and move on up from there. Kill them and put them out of their misery.
I was raised by a single mom. My dad walked out on us when I was 11 months old. I never saw him again until I was 23 years old. I guess I should never have been born.
But WAIT!! If none of that had happened to me, I wouldn’t be the person that I am today. I would not have had the opportunity to experience how God truly IS a Father to the fatherless and how I could forgive such abandonment by my biological father with God’s help. I would never have been as close to my grandfather as I was, because he stepped in to fill that void left by my father. I would never have been able to see such an inspirational woman, my mother, triumph over difficulties through faith and determination.
Oh, WOE is ME! I was not born into an ideal life! WHO IS?? I don’t know anyone without problems in this world, but I certainly thank God that my mother (knowing that my father had been unfaithful to her before she even discovered she was pregnant) CHOSE to give me life anyway and did not view her pregnancy as “indentured servitude” but as a gift from God in what was otherwise a very dark time in her life.
We will never know what God is (or we are) capable of if we snuff out the gift of LIFE. Mr. Berger, you spoke in complete and utter ignorance on this issue. Take it from someone who knows.
BTW, I believe the slavery comparison is completely accurate. One day, I pray that society will take its willful blinders off and see the truth.
Reality,
If you can’t see the difference between a racially inferior mindless insentinent black sub-human and a racially superior white person then you need more help than I can give you.
The argument someone who is “pro-choice” on slavery would have given you not all that long ago in this country.
Some statistics please as to how abortion saves women’s lives every day.
And for the record, I suppose this means that our current President, born in less than ideal circumstances to an underage single mother, should also never have been born. Hmm?
If you can’t see the difference between a breathing, thinking, fully-functioning black person and a mindless, insentient embryo inside of a woman, you certainly need more help than I can provide.
Wait about 15 years, and there IS NO difference.
BTW – minorities are killed by abortion at much higher rates.
(And as an aside, slavery DID save people’s lives; that doesn’t make it morally licit, though.)
Also, most embryos are not “mindless” unless they suffer from the condition of anencephaly, and even then neuroplasticity can make up for deficits for months or years.
How do you define “sentient”? And why is “sentience” the benchmark for whether a human being deserves to live or die? Our humanness is not limited merely to how well we think.
Robert: “Abortion is the tragic choice of an individual woman which often SAVES her developing fetus from a life of misery, despair and degredation.”
This may be one of the most ignorant things Ive seen you say. Do you not even know what the pro-choice argument is? You cannot defend abortion along those lines. The pro-choice stance has NOTHING to do with saving the fetus from a “bad” life. It has ONLY to do with whether or not the mother feels like maintaining a pregnancy for a few months. Thats it. Get informed on your own stance Robert.
Reality: “If you can’t see the difference between a breathing, thinking, fully-functioning black person and a mindless, insentient embryo inside of a woman, you certainly need more help than I can provide. ”
So tell me Robert, do all creatures that have minds and have the ability to feel pain(sentient) have personhood rights?
You distinctions are completely arbitrary and you, as I know from experience, do not have the guts to come in here and outline your distinction. No pro-choicer does.
Wow, Mary, you certainly are quite the racist. Not surprising. I would suggest looking up the definition for “insentient,” because if you knew what it meant, you would realize how laughable your argument is. No educated person could argue that black people are insentient.
There’s nothing pro-choice about slavery. Slavery was (and still is) imposed on human beings so that wealthy people can have cheap labor. Black slaves in the US fought for their rights and eventually won them.
Abortion was legalized to protect women from illegal abortionists. Countless lives have been saved thanks to legalization. Just look at the CDC’s abortion surveillance. And unlike black people, embryos and fetuses do not fight for rights, because they are mindless and insentient.
Any movement that would have nine-year-old rape victims condemned to death by pregnancy can hardly compare itself to abolitionists. Anti-choicers are more accurately compared to slavers, because you want to use women and girls against their will, even if it kills them.
It is not abortion that is saving women. It is abortion that is a sign of their lack of rights. Women are dying not because they cannot receive abortions, they are dying because they have no healthcare, no support, and many other things plaguing poverty. No liberation movement is founded upon dehumanization, propaganda, and superiority and beneficium.
No child is worth less than his or her mother and no woman is less than a man. No racial minority is worth less than the Anglo. Mr. Hal, Mr(s). Reality, and Mr. Bergen- if you cannot learn this than you have much still to learn in life. It is most fortunate for you that you were valued enough to have a full one. If I were to kill you to save children’s lives, would that make me ethical? Absolutely not. But life is so much more than being permitted to live outside of the human womb- it’s seeing fireworks and feeling grass and experiencing heartbreak. I am sorry if you feel that only the “superior” are entitled to this, and though I wish us to be friends who bond over human rights activism, so long as you oppose the rights of my fellows in the womb, then you have sentenced us to be enemies. We could get along…but we’d have to listen to each other and we’d have to listen to the smaller amongst, which would be the preborn.
great poster Jill. Going to put it on my blog too.
Wait about 15 years, and there IS NO difference.
15 years is a huge difference.
BTW – minorities are killed by abortion at much higher rates.
Minorities are also born at a much higher rate.
(And as an aside, slavery DID save people’s lives;
LOL! And how, pray tell, do you imagine it did that?
Any movement that would have nine-year-old rape victims condemned to death by pregnancy can hardly compare itself to abolitionists.
First of all, the exact details of that situation are sketchy. We don’t even know if it was an ectopic pregnancy, molar pregnancy, or what! We also don’t know what, exactly, threatened “the health of the mother”. Saying that she was “comdemned to death” is quite a strong statement in light of the lack of facts.
Second of all, in that situation, the children were not the perpetrators of the crime, yet THEY were the ones assigned the death penalty.
And Reality, I really hope that your definition of “sentience” is not “one who fights for rights”. That would prove a great majority of Americans as “non-sentient”!
Pro choice people aren’t saying Kel wouldn’t exist, or Obama should have been aborted. We’re saying that the pregnant woman should decide. Many women will decide to continue their pregrancies for a variety of reasons, some will terminate for a variety of reasons. No harm done.
Vannah,
It is most fortunate for you that you were valued enough to have a full one.
Not really. If I had been aborted, I would never have known the difference.
I am glad that my mother was given a choice.
Reality,
Just as I thought. You wont answer why a “mind” suddenly gives a human rights, but doesnt for other animals.
And, Mr. Hal, we are saying that women should decide if they don’t wish to become pregnant, but that women don’t have the right to decide if their childen live or die. For a variety of reasons. No harm done.
I don’t get to decide if you live, you don’t get to decide if I live, and women don’t get to decide if children live. All people must be free.
Abortion was legalized to protect women from illegal abortionists.
*****************************************
Excuse me, but LOLOLOL! Wrong.
Countless lives have been saved thanks to legalization.
****************************************
And countless human lives have been snuffed out in the name of “choice,” thanks to legislation.
And unlike black people, embryos and fetuses do not fight for rights, because they are mindless and insentient.
*******************************************
What do you mean by “mindless?” They do have brains that are working and functioning. Do you mean that they have no ability to “reason?” Because if that is the case, then plenty of children could be “offed” for that excuse. Newborns do not fight for rights, either. This argument is completely invalid. At one point in our history, black people were declared to be “three-fifths human.” Not fully human. “Mindless savages” that could be used for whatever we wanted.
Any movement that would have nine-year-old rape victims condemned to death by pregnancy can hardly compare itself to abolitionists.
****************************************
Oh, nice try! Nine year old rape victims?? I suppose the majority of abortions are done on nine-year-old rape victims now, and not by any women who wanted sex without consequences. Puh-leeze.
Anti-choicers are more accurately compared to slavers, because you want to use women and girls against their will, even if it kills them.
Posted by: reality at March 14, 2009 2:26 PM
********************************************
You know this is an absolute lie. But keep saying it if it makes you feel better about your position. I’m sure you have to tell yourself this garbage at least once a day.
I meant, in 15 years, that embryo and the man sold as a slave could be indistinguishable from each other.
The earliest recorded instance of someone saved by slavery that I know of is the story of Joseph, in the Bible. His brothers were going to kill him, until they figured out they could make a profit off of selling him. Countless POWs throughout history were NOT killed or starved to death in the aftermath of sieges because they were taken captives and used as slaves.
I think a good number of people would rather be sold into slavery than ripped limb from limb without anesthetic and then thrown away with the garbage. I haven’t taken a poll on that, it’s just a hunch. Although we do have the evidence of thousands of years of history in which people were taken as slaves, sold, etc. and they did not kill themselves in order to avoid misery or degradation, but rather showed a surprisingly strong will to live and triumph.
(I am not saying that slavery was good, moral, or should ever happen, I’m merely pointing out the fact that slavery did prevent people from dying at various points in time. Slavery is a terrible evil.)
Hal,
“No harm done.”
Its on thing to say that you wouldnt mind having been aborted, but its another to claim “no harm done.”
No one would mind having been killed after they are killed because they do not know about it. That doesnt change whether or not this is harm done, obviously.
First of all, the exact details of that situation are sketchy.
Baloney.
Second of all, in that situation, the children were not the perpetrators of the crime, yet THEY were the ones assigned the death penalty.
The child was the one whose life was saved thanks to the courageous doctors who performed the loving, caring, life-saving abortion she needed, despite the cries of the anti-choice movement which would rather have seen the girl die along with her two fetuses.
Why, Reality, you value others and yourself so little? I have a hard time believing that you value yourself so little. If you are pro-choice you clearly value yourself quite a lot but value others so little. I am sorry if this irritates you, but I think that all people deserve equality and no human outweighs the other. And though you have such little respect for human rights and such an abundance of intolerance, I know that this is fruitless. I try to keep myself in check when arguing with one so determined to be ignorant to other’s plights.
“Slavery is a terrible evil.”
You are a racist because you said slavery!
Reality 2:26PM
LOL!! I’m a racist?? Reality I am using YOUR words. I wasn’t arguing that black people are insentinent. This is the argument someone who supports the right to own black slaves would have given your a few hundred years ago.
Check your history and you will find out that black people were viewed as inferior, subhuman, mindless, uneducable, and insentinent.
Of course one can be pro choice on slavery. People who own slaves are making the choice to own them. I make the choice not to own them. One can certainly oppose an action but still support the moral right of another to make that decision for themselves, right?
Women are protected by legal abortion? Are you referring to abortionist LeRoy Carthart who’s abortion business is located in a building I wouldn’t have my jeep serviced in? Are you referring to Tiller who hires people off the street to “supervise” aborting patients in hotel rooms?
Reality, if you’re so concerned about rape, talk to your friends at PP who cover up for men guilty of statutory rape. Apparently they have little concern about the victims and potential victims of these predators.
Reality,
Care to explain why you think a mind grants a human rights but not an animal? You seem to be responding to everyone else…maybe you have no response?
Reality, I am unaware that the details of that situation (I assume you are speaking of the 9 yo girl raped by her father in Brazil that was in the news?). Since you have access to all of the facts, could you please tell us exactly what medical condition was prevented/cured,(and don’t say “pregnancy”. Pregnancy is not a disease) what exactly was threatening the life of the mother, how abortion helped that, which method was used, and how the girl and her mother was counseled?
Thanks.
I think a good number of people would rather be sold into slavery than ripped limb from limb without anesthetic and then thrown away with the garbage.
I disagree. Enslaved people know what it means to suffer; aborted fetuses never know the difference. Lots of slaves killed themselves trying to escape.
Give me liberty or give me death, as Patrick Henry would say.
So… all people who are not living in liberty should be killed, now, too? I guess that goes back to Robert’s assertion that killing to prevent despair is a good idea.
Hi Robert,
Now see what you have done to this thread??!! :P
I know that you will not come and discuss logically anything you write but I have a question for you.
Why is abortion a tragic choice?
You are a racist because you said slavery!
Oh yeah? You’re racist because you assume that a slave must be of a certain race!
LOL
Robert: “Give me liberty or give me death, as Patrick Henry would say. ”
So what, its okay to kill prisoners to stop their suffering? Children can be killed because they do not really have liberty? What are you trying to assert here?
could you please tell us exactly what medical condition was prevented/cured,(and don’t say “pregnancy”. Pregnancy is not a disease)
Sorry, but I’m going to have to disagree. The child would have died along with the fetuses, had the pregnancy continued. Pregnancy may not be a disease, but it can certainly kill.
So you don’t know the details of the situation. Thought so.
Care to explain why you think a mind grants a human rights but not an animal? You seem to be responding to everyone else…maybe you have no response?
Sorry, Oliver, but you are asking me about something I never said. That is why I have no response.
In other words, you have no idea what you are talking about. Gotcha.
Move along, next animal minded pro-choicer spouting platitudes please!
Hello, Mrs. Carla!
I’m going to get Won By Love tonight…I hope. I’m going to the bookstore to see if I can get it.
“the anti-choice movement which would rather have seen the girl die along with her two fetuses. ”
Reality, if this is how you think us “anti-choicers” would have handled the situation, then you clearly have not been reading anyone in the “anti-choice” movement who knows what they’re talking about. If you would take the time to actually see how us “anti-choicers” would have handled the situation, then you would see that your straw man is, indeed, a straw man.
Furthermore, the fact that you brought the 9 year old with twins case up completely unprovoked shows how little faith you have in the case for abortion in general. Abortion should be able to be defended on its own merits as it stands in law in the US without having to resort to these special cases of rape or life of the mother. Certainly the fact of a pregnant 9 year old does not justify abortion on demand as we see it here.
Pregnancy doesn’t kill. A normal pregnancy does not threaten the life of the mother unless another condition is present (which would make it not a normal pregnancy). My question was what do you know about this other condition in that girl?
Of course I know the details:
The child was impregnated by rape. She was carrying twins. Her body was incapable of continuing the pregnancy. The abortion saved her life. The anti-choice movement would rather have seen her dead.
What more do you need to know?
Pregnancy doesn’t kill.
Of course it does. It kills 300-400 women per year in the US alone, according to the CDC.
Well the difference is that slaves could be freed or escape. A murdered child in the womb remains a dead person.
Reality: “If you can’t see the difference between a breathing, thinking, fully-functioning black person and a mindless, insentient embryo inside of a woman, you certainly need more help than I can provide. ”
Reality: “Sorry, Oliver, but you are asking me about something I never said. That is why I have no response. ”
Well actually you did. You believe that there is a difference when it comes to rights between slaves and embryos because the former have minds and the latter do not.
Care to explain why? Or will you choose to deflect, yet again?
I remember the case of a 5y/o South American girl who had a baby. Obviously she was also a rape victim. The baby was placed for adoption, and the girl grew up to be a normally functioning human being. She became the secretary of the doctor who delivered her baby.
Oliver, I would suggest that if you want to engage in conversation like an adult, you go back and read what I’ve actually written, and base your questions on that. Thanks.
Hey Vannah,
I hope you get the book!! :)
Cite your sources Reality. I would like to read about the 9 year old.
You believe that there is a difference when it comes to rights
Rights? I don’t see the word “rights” anywhere in that quote.
Try again.
Carla,
http://www.google.com
Learn to use it.
So you brought up the difference to point out that theyre different? Hm Im not sure I see your logic there. Why would you care about the difference unless you thought it relevant to the discussion?
So you brought up the difference to point out that theyre different?
Exactly.
Jill asked “What’s the difference?” So I pointed out some differences.
Reality,
Looks like we have another person incapable of understanding context. Seems that your type really seems to struggle here.
Jill was refering to the violation of rights.
Slavery violated the rights of humans. Abortion violates the rights of humans. Its simple Reality, although I can understand considering your past struggles with reading comprehension and inferences.
Don’t worry about those who oppose freedom and those who oppose justice of any sort. What goes up must eventually come down. We are all capable of such great things. We can see things that no one else sees and we can feel what no one else feels. We can either be full of intolerance or we can be full of acceptance. If you busy yourself with loving one another, following what your heart says is right, and learning to live, but most importantly waiting for God, then you have lived a beautiful life. If you concern yourselves with the legality of abortion, then you concern yourselves with temporary injustice. I think that, if we were to learn anything from the preborn, it is not more harsh words or violence in their names. Harsh words and violence took their names, remember? Leave the harsh words and violence for those who support abortion. Let’s get along in this discussion. Instead of arguing in their honor, perhaps we should learn and try to grow, and teach one another to live.
Hal, Reality, they may keep their intolerance to themselves. We don’t achieve any justice by arguing with their ignorance. We aren’t even arguing with them anymore, just their lack of open-mindedness.
I know Vannah. It just makes me laugh to watch these people throw out the ridiculous catch phrases and have no way to justify them.
The difference is that the slaves were not inside their masters’ bodies.
If something/someone is inside your body, you’re entitled to kill it/him/her.
SO 3:24PM
Does that include a full term baby moments before birth??
Oliver, go ahead and laugh. All your “simple” and “well reasoned” arguments aren’t carrying the day.
The shed blood of innocent slaves resulted in the deaths of 600,000 lives in the Civil War.
It is a spiritual law that the shed blood of innocent people cries out to God for vengeance, and He will answer.
I just don’t know how many lives will be lost either in a war or cataclysm of some sort as a result of the 1,000,000,000 innocent children that have been murdered since 1973.
Watch Lou Engle and the Doctrine of the Shedding of Innocent Bllod here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3722098690652929884
“If something/someone is inside your body, you’re entitled to kill it/him/her.”
Why? Autonomy would not exist without life therefore life trumps autonomy. This can be seen as evident in the cases of Siamese twins who are not autonomous from their siblings yet have the right to not be killed by those same siblings.
“Pregnancy doesn’t kill.
Of course it does. It kills 300-400 women per year in the US alone, according to the CDC.
Posted by: reality at March 14, 2009 2:53 PM”
Excuse me, I think the deaths are caused by the complications that could possibly arise out of pregnancy or are related to pregnancy.
People die driving cars. Why don’t we ban driving?
People are electrocuted every year. Why don’t we go back to the stone age?
To try to justify abortion because a very small number of women that become pregnant sometimes die is ridiculous and non-sensical.
Gee, the benefits of having people born instead of having them murdered gives everyone of us the chance to meet, love and live with another of God’s creations.
Are you that terrified of meeting your maker? Yes, I would be to if I were pro-abortion.
I find it disgusting that so many people are demanding the “details” in the case of the 9-year old rape victim, asking for “evidence” that she was in mortal danger. The evidence is called common sense. Maybe the nine-year old could have delivered the twins, but it is not up to anyone other than the girl and her family whether or not she should take that risk. Forcing a nine-year old against her will to continue a pregnancy that may kill her IS worse than ending lives that haven’t even begun yet. Again, common sense.
That girl should not have to justify her abortion to ANYONE.
I have yet to hear an iota of outrage expressed over the fact this child endured horrible sexual abuse. Is there any concern that she may have been infected with AIDS? What about her emotional trauma? Should her attacker be put to death?
That slave-owner should not have to justify his owning of a slave to ANYONE.
“Should her attacker be put to death?”
Either that or publicly castrated on the Crime and Punishment channel.
JR 4:17PM
Preferably with a very dull knife.
Chris 4:14PM
At least you’re consistent.
“Abortion is the tragic choice of an individual woman which often SAVES her developing fetus from a life of misery, despair and degredation.”
This fallacy is a similar argument made in favor of slavery so you work against your own point. Many justified slavery by suggesting that the slave would not be able to survive on their own if set free and are therefore better off as slaves. Likewise you’re suggesting that the baby is going to lead such a horrible life that they’re better off dead than free and equal. By your logic you should also support the “compassionate euthanasia” of the poor and diseased since you would probably consider that a “life of misery” – if you do not than you are a hypocrite!
You anti-choicers still haven’t answered my question.
Why do you vote for republican politicians who not only want to make abortion illegal in America but who also gut or eliminate programs to help poor children who ARE born? And the poor in general? Aren’t you guilty of the rankest hypocrisy ?
Mr. Berger, you assume that all people vote for the same person. I can’t vote, but when I do I’ll vote for the candidate most likely to effect the greatest change in many issues. Sometimes that’s a Republican and sometimes that’s a Democrat. Don’t assume that all people vote the same. They take into great consideration the candidate.
“That slave-owner should not have to justify his owning of a slave to ANYONE. ”
Wow, stealing my name in order to defame me. Classy.
Surely, you see a HUGE difference between a 9-year old carrying twins that could very possibly kill her, and a slave-owner, right? I mean, pro-lifers are supposed to be such beacons of morality, but if you honestly think there’s no difference here, than you have no real morals whatsoever.
Hey, I found a cool song (that you guys have probably heard before):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmC2jn7cE40
I like this one.
Robert;
I don’t leave social programs out of consideration when considering abortion. I’m more moderate on social programs than some other Republicans, and I will tend to vote for Republicans who are more moderate on social programs.
That said I don’t also want to vote for someone who opposes fetal rights yet says “I have a program that will reduce the desire for abortion.” In the end it usually only reduces it by modest proportions and it akin to voting for Stephen Douglas over Lincoln because he may want economic help to struggling farmers so they won’t have to buy slaves. Something that serious you have to maintain a hardline on otherwise you will never solve the ultimate problem.
Now when it comes to Democrats who will be for some social programs and are also pro-life. I will almost certainly vote for them if they are running against a pro-choice fiscally conservative republican. If Bob Casey were running against Arlen Specter I would have voted for Bob Casey.
Ahhh, Chris, I see you have discovered the classiness of those who rally against abortion rights on this site. Stay awhile, have fun.
Yeah Bilbo, I had forgotten that this is the same site that perpetuated the myth about Chinese people eating babies. I shouldn’t have expected anything more.
Abortion is the tragic choice of an individual woman which often SAVES her developing fetus from a life of misery, despair and degredation.
Yes, I’ve always found death to be so liberating…
Please spare me.
Off topic but of paramont importance:
Chief justice publicly accepts WND’s eligibility petition
Attorney Orly Taitz talks to Roberts, who agrees to read Obama-birth docs
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91763
http://defendourfreedoms.us/
That girl should not have to justify her abortion to ANYONE.
Posted by: Chris at March 14, 2009 4:08 PM
———-
Including herself.
Wow, your argument just committed suicide!
a ***Please Help Our Doctors!***.
Mike
Ha ha! Thank you, Chris, for reminding me of that. I had completely forgotten that Jill thinks Chinese people eat fetuses.
Oooh, goody, TROLLS! Serving no purpose other than to detract from the very valid conversation at hand. They’re becoming more and more obvious. Anyone else noticing that?
BTW, Johanan, I want to thank you for your thoughtful and respectful comments here. They’re nice to read.
Thanks, Kel, for your contribution to our detracting! You’ve earned your Troll badge!
So, in order to get back to the discussion at hand- I might make some points regarding slavery in the past. I’ve never read Uncle Tom’s Cabin, but I’ve read much discussion on it and I’ve read bits and pieces of it. One thing struck me as odd: lots of anti-slavery activists were against racial equality, and in Uncle Tom’s Cabin, Stowe argued that it wasn’t enough to free the slaves and consider them inequal. She argued that the slaves must be given their freedom through equality in every sense, too.
And, yes, while I know that none of us are abolitionists, so much as servants, it makes sense for pro-life: we cannot simply want abortion to end. We are children’s rights activists, that much is true, and we cannot be satisfied with granting them their own freedom of life. They need to have better healthcare, better education, and better familial situations all across the board. Every pro-life activist I know supports this, they just don’t see it as nearly as important. But I think that it is just as important. Children deserve their own autonomy and their own rights. This stretches beyond being anti-abortion. Any thoughts?
P.S. Ignore the trolls. They just want to get a rise out of us. Ignore them and just don’t give them the anger that they apparently thrive off of. I’m serious; don’t even answer them.
Posted by: Kel at March 14, 2009 5:55 PM
—-
Don’t trolls eat their young?
Interesting they find the moral offense of conveying false information greater than the heinous acts against the pre-born.
That’s one skewed up sense of morality.
If someone is trying to get a rise out of you, they’re doing a good job.
The person who made this poster thing also made one that said something along the lines of: “Abortion clinics: they’re like dog pounds but they only take slutty female dogs” and went on to comment that “yeah, it’s mostly sluts” that get abortions.
I don’t know if that will bother anyone here as much as it does me. I think that is completely crass, though, and wildly inappropriate and false. There are women on this site who have had abortions. Ladies? Are you “sluts”?
Vannah, excellent points. That is why many pro-life advocates, including many here, work so hard in different areas of life (such as CPCs) to help provide for the care of these children once they are born. They teach parenting classes, help provide necessities of life, assist with finding shelter and foodbanks if necessary… any number of ways. I consider my job part of my ministry… it brings me into contact with so many wonderful families, and many struggling ones.
In the hospital, and particularly in the ER, I find myself in a position to intervene in order to better a child’s life and situation. Always through healthcare, many times through education and advocacy for the parents and on some, not infrequent enough occasions, through removal of the child from a heinous situation.
It makes the pro-abort camp feel morally superior when they can “claim” (falsely) that we don’t care about these children once they’re born. Of course, their response is essentially why care? Just kill ’em.
Robert Berger 4:38PM
Please specify which programs it is the Republicans supposedly want to eliminate?
That’s great, Ms. Elisabeth. See, I personally wish to volunteer to help out the impoverished. But it’s great to hear people out there working to improve the medical situations of families and children.
Hooray!
From Jasper’s QOTD:
“She buys me the economy box.”
~ Actor Zac Efron, on getting condoms for Christmas from his mother, as quoted by Elle magazine, March 05
————————–
yeah, so sad.
Thanks, Kel, for your contribution to our detracting! You’ve earned your Troll badge!
Posted by: Bilbo at March 14, 2009 5:57 PM
****************************************
Well, it’s nice to know that a Troll KNOWS he is being a troll. ;) Thanks for that admission! :D
It makes the pro-abort camp feel morally superior when they can “claim” (falsely) that we don’t care about these children once they’re born. Of course, their response is essentially why care? Just kill ’em.
Posted by: Elisabeth at March 14, 2009 7:33 PM
************************************
That’s exactly it. First it’s, “You don’t care about women” and when we prove them wrong, they say “You don’t care about kids AFTER they’re born! Why don’t you ADOPT all of these children if you think they should all live?” It makes no sense to me at all. Instead, now we should just shut up and let them be aborted because their lives, heaven forbid, might not be perfect if they were allowed to live. It’s a frightening argument, in my opinion. One of those roads that leads only to more death for those with possible “quality of life” issues.
I don’t personally like the comparison between slavery and abortion. However I think the “catch phase” fits.
Pro-Choice: Against abortion? Don’t get one.
Works for me
Abortions save women’s lives every day.
Posted by: reality at March 14, 2009 2:04 PM
wtf are you smoking?
Abortion is THE most evil thing a person can do.
I’d feel safer living next door to a typical random psycho-killer than the kind of a psycho-killer that kills her own children.
Talulu: “Works for me”
Surely you are not that dense? The whole point of the satire was to demonstrate how empty and offbase that platitude really is. I can only hope for your sake that you are just coming in to be sarcastic.
Chris: “The evidence is called common sense.”
Right and common sense is surely enough to base our decisions on!
“Hmm, it would seem reasonable that I can eat this berry. Heck, I eat strawberries all the time and they look pretty similar! As long as something SEEMS reasonable, it should probably carry out!”
You should read a little bit on the history of philosophy. What “seems” reasonable, or common sense as you put it is never sufficient to base judgement without realizing what actually IS the case. In other words, you need context. I dont know that a 9 year old cant give birth. It would SEEM likely that she would be in mortal danger, but I honestly do not know what the human body is capable of.
Robert,
Why should we answer your questions when all you do is post some random bull that is even out of line with your own pro-choice stance and then disapear never answering to your incredulous statements?
“Republicans take from the poor! Abortions should be ok cuz people shouldnt suffer! The rich hate everyone and would fire all their employees if it werent for unions! Obama knows what he is doing!”
Im tired of those posts from you. If you are going to make them, why dont you stick around for, I dunno, 5 minutes to “debate” your absurd points?
TS,
Abortion is evil. I agree. Sin is sin. God sees all sin the same through His Son. Abortion is not unforgivable!! I am thankful that God has forgiven me for the sin of my abortion. It is statements like yours that keep women hidden in their shame and in their pain.
If you are reading this and you had an abortion and you are struggling please get in touch with me. You can find my contact information through my blog or click on my name in the Mod Squad section.
You can also call The National Helpline for Abortion Recovery
1-866-482-LIFE
Cool cartoon. Cool slogan. Here’s another I like: “If you don’t like back alley abortions done by butchers, don’t have one”.
Posted by: Robert Berger at March 14, 2009 8:50 AM
“As a pro-choicer I find comparing abortion to slavery not only ludicrous but offensive.”
“I find it offensive when anti-choicers make it sound as though being pro-choice were as morally reprehensible as being pro slavery.”
“Abortion is the tragic choice of an individual woman which often SAVES her developing fetus from a life of misery, despair and degredation.”
—————————————————-
Mr. Berger,
It is pro slavery folk who should be offended by being compared to people like you.
Though the laws agains rape, assault, and murder were seldom enforced when it was the slave who was the victim, the ‘laws’ still applied to them.
They were recoginized as fellow human beings. They were just viewed as less equal than other human beings. The slave owners recognized their value both socially and economically.
Not all blacks were considered as property. The’re were free black men and women. Mostly in the ‘free’ states.
You and your cohorts see no inherent worth and value in prenatal human beings. They are less than nothing to you. Your perspective is more that of a sociopath, mass murderer and serial killer.
Your bigotry does not change reality. It only changes you. In your attempt to dehumnize prenatal children you only diminish your selves.
I do not know what fantasy land you grew up in but the reality I have known has always included some misery and suffering. Good people look for ways to alleviate the suffering, not eliminate the sufferers.
If you really believe the gospel that you preach then please put your self out of my miserey. Dig a hole and jump in it and recycle yourself and take a couple of your like minded ‘more equal’ colleages with you.
When your mom was pregnant with you, what species of emmbryo/fetus was present in her uterus?
yor bro ken
Posted by: Talula at March 15, 2009 12:22 AM
“Works for me”
——————————————————–
It only ‘works’ for you, because you’re not the one who’s life and body are on the auction block.
You would be singing a much different tune if the sex slave traders were bidding for you or your child and all you could do was hope for someone with a more humane perspective than yourself to make the highest bid.
Your liberal humanist cohorts would not break a sweat coming to your rescue, unless they needed something to divert public attention from their own flesh peddling.
yor bro ken
“That girl should not have to justify her abortion to ANYONE.
Posted by: Chris at March 14, 2009 4:08 PM
———-
Including herself.
Wow, your argument just committed suicide!”
“I dont know that a 9 year old cant give birth. It would SEEM likely that she would be in mortal danger, but I honestly do not know what the human body is capable of.”
Right, you don’t know. Neither do I. But that’s irrelevant, because it’s none of anyone’s damn business. You don’t get to decide whether or not a nine-year old girl takes the risk of giving birth to twins. She and her family should be the only ones responsible for that choice, and anyone who tries to judge them for it can screw off.
I’ll say it again, a nine-year old should not have to prove that she is in mortal danger before choosing not to remain pregnant. She could die before there’s even any obvious signs. Forcing that little girl to give birth against her will would have been a much bigger offense than the abortion.
Oops, forgot to reply to this:
“Including herself.
Wow, your argument just committed suicide!”
Um, how so? That response didn’t even make sense.
Chris, do we even know that the abortion was her will? It could just as easily be that the adults in her life forced her into the abortion.
Think back to yourself at 9. You were old enough to understand the concepts of death, pregnancy, and childbirth.
You are assuming that it is better for this girl to submit to an abortion. That may not be the case. She will now live with the fact that she has two dead children. That’s not an easy thing for adults to live with, so I can only imagine how hard it would be on a child.
If she could have carried the children to near term, but outside forces pushed abortion, she very well may have issues later on.
I don’t think things are as cut and dry as rape victim=automatic abortion, even when the rape victim is only a child.
Chris: “Right, you don’t know. Neither do I. But that’s irrelevant, because it’s none of anyone’s damn business. You don’t get to decide whether or not a nine-year old girl takes the risk of giving birth to twins. She and her family should be the only ones responsible for that choice, and anyone who tries to judge them for it can screw off.”
Okay, now you are talking about the central issue to abortion. You are missing your own original point, that OF COURSE this girl is in danger from her pregnancy, so even pro-lifers should not be concerned to see “proof.” Now you are shifting gears after admiting that “common sense” does not prove the veracity of the “threat to the mother” claim.
By the way, just so you know, you DO have to prove something is a threat to your life before taking an action to harm another human.
If a human is going to fall on me and kill me I have every right to kill that person. However if a human is about to bump into me, I do not have the right to kill that person.
You cant just say “well its your decision whether or not harm will come from the action.”
Chris: “I’ll say it again, a nine-year old should not have to prove that she is in mortal danger before choosing not to remain pregnant. She could die before there’s even any obvious signs. Forcing that little girl to give birth against her will would have been a much bigger offense than the abortion. ”
I will again say, why? We force parents to care for their children even at the expense of bodily autonomy (breastfeeding) in some cases. Besides, you are starting to argue an entirely different case now. Your point has nothing to do with defending the crediblity of the claims surrounding the 9 year old, but to do with defending abortion on a large scale term. Which is it?
If you want to argue within the pro-life argument that the “danger” is self-evident, go for it, but dont use “abortion is okay” as a premise. If you want to argue from outside of the pro-life argument that it wouldnt matter what the concern is for anybody at any age over an abortion, go for it as well, but dont use “abortion is okay” to support your point that “abortion is okay.” Thats called circular reasoning.
Is it really that much to ask that you use a little reason before coming in here and causing trouble?
***Please Help Our Doctors!***
We knew it was coming. The thirty day public comment period for removing conscience protection for health care workers began on March 6, 2009 and the clock is ticking. It is hard to believe that in America our doctors, nurses, pharmacists and religious hospitals would be forced to provide controversial services that conflict with their personal, moral and religious beliefs. One of President Bush’s last actions was to reinforce this traditional protection and many of us made use of the official website at that time to express our support for an action that should be a sacred right in our country.
PLEASE take the time to voice your objections to this assault on the religious liberties of our good and dedicated medical personnel. Your comments must be registered on the official website in order to be counted. It’s not enough to contact the White House. They have also made it more difficult by having certain guidelines that must be followed. Here is the website: http://www.proposedrescission@hhs.gov
According to the Proposed Rule comments should provide the following:
1. Information, including specific examples, where feasible, addressing the scope and nature of the problems giving rise to the need for federal rulemaking and how the current rule would resolve those problems.
2. Information, including specific examples where feasible, supporting or refuting allegations that the December 19, 2008 final rule reduces access to information and health care services, particularly by low- income women.
3. Comment on whether the December 19, 2008 final rule provides sufficient clarity to minimize the potential for harm resulting from any ambiguity and confusion that may exist because of the rule; and
4. Comment on whether the objectives of the December 19, 2008 final rule might also be accomplished through non-regulatory means, such as outreach and education.”
The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops is preparing guidelines to assist people in making their comments. They should be available very shortly. We want to make sure that we jump through all the hoops that this most pro-abortion administration in the history of our nation has set up for us. Do use your own thoughts, however. We don’t want it to come off as a “form letter” type of response. Off the top of my head I can think of several reasons, such as the first amendment of the Constitution that guarantees freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
What about the impact on our health care systems if Catholic hospitals and other Christian hospitals are forced to close their doors rather than comply? Some members of the Catholic Health Association are dismissing the idea saying they would just exercise civil disobedience. Sister Carol Keehan, President and CEO of the CHA, is trying to reassure everyone that there is no imminent threat. I wish I shared her optimistic viewpoint. More and more Catholic hospitals rely on government funding in part, and especially for reimbursement for Medicare patients. What if those funds were withheld? How long would they survive?
Congratulations to Senator Tom Coburn, R. Oklahoma and a Physician/Obstetrician. He boldly proclaimed that he and his fellow doctors would go to jail rather than commit the sin of performing an abortion. His public statement forced the media to call attention to what is happening to our medical providers. Would they really jail them? I’m not sure, but you can bet that they would fine them and restrict licenses and hound them out of the medical field. And it would certainly discourage young people from entering the field of obstetrics and gynecology. This is serious. We need YOUR involvement. Do not miss this opportunity to protect our religious freedoms. In spite of the outstanding lobbying efforts of the Catholics at the Capitol on March 4, it is very disappointing that the Illinois Freedom of Choice Bill, so-called Reproductive Justice and Access Act, HB 2354, was voted out of committee by a 5 – 2 vote. It is such a radical attempt to overturn all protections for women and their unborn children it’s hard to believe that it is even something we would have to worry about passing. But we do! This would enshrine abortion as a permanent “right” in Illinois. Please contact both your State Rep and your State Senator to vote NO. If it passes in the House it will move on to the Senate. We want them forewarned. You remember how to reach your elected officials, go to http://www.ilga.gov and click on Legislator Lookup then the Zip + 4 tab and enter your nine digit zip code. It has all of the terrible provisions that the federal Freedom of Choice Act has. We need your help to stop it. (For the very latest info click on the attachment above from the Students for Life of Illinois and if you haven’t yet signed their petition, please do it there.)
And in a separate call, email, or letter please ask them to vote NO on HB 2234 the Civil Unions Bill which has also passed out of committee and is on the floor. When you hear “civil unions” think “same-sex marriage”, because this bill is the foot in the door. It carries all the same rights and privileges as marriage and has been used in other states to legalize same-sex marriage. People with homosexual inclinations can get rights to visitation in hospitals by enacting a durable power of attorney, and inheritance rights by writing a will. What we can’t give that they so desperately want, is the stamp of approval on their lifestyle. There is no discrimination involved and it is not a “fairness” issue as our legislators seem to believe.
Eric Scheidler is asking for people to sign up at http://prolifeaction.org/forms/newlist.php to receive updates from him to keep us current on these issues. Many of you who are already on his list forward his emails to others. It would be more efficient if they got them directly from Eric. For an excellent video that puts all of this in perspective go to http://www.priestsforlife.org and click on their newest video “Everyone for Abortion, Raise Your Hand”. (By the way, you can contact any United States Senator at http://www.senate.gov. Click on Senators at the top and they will all come up in alpha order. You can search by name or state.)
If you watch Glenn Beck you are already aware of the blatant attempt by the Legislative Body in Connecticut to take over the financial affairs of the Catholic Church at the parish level. They have backed down from this but it is just “shelved”. If they can do it to the Catholic Church they can do it to any church. The Culture Campaign website (www.culturecampaign.com) has the story in a nutshell at the following link with video, http://culturecampaign.blogspot.com/2009/03/connecticut-legislature-to-overthrow.html. You can check their regular website for a wide variety of stories. Be sure to tune in to Glenn Beck this Friday March 13th, 4:00 p.m., Central Time, on the Fox News Channel. The guy is very sincere and entertaining at the same time. This Friday’s show is supposed to be special. If you can’t watch it live, please TiVo or tape it.
Another serious concern looming over us is the threat of a huge national health care program. It was P. J. O’Rourke who said, “If you think health care is expensive now, wait until you see what it costs when it’s free!” It hasn’t worked in other countries where people wait months to even get the chance to see a doctor. And you can expect rationing and decisions from some beaurocrat about who is eligible to receive treatments. There is already a plan in the “stimulus package” for a centralized control where every doctor would have to receive permission before proceeding with the treatments he feels are appropriate. Can euthanasia be far behind? We are charging full tilt ahead with exactly the opposite policies that we need to grow the economy. Doesn’t anybody have any courage these days to put a stop to this?? Join the tea-bag protest by mailing a tea bag to President Barack Obama, The White House, 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, D.C. 20500. Thousands of people all over the country plan to mail a tea-bag on April 1st so that it will arrive by April 15th, tax day, just to try to convey their frustration with these borrow/print money and runaway spending policies. Keep an eye on Congressman Paul Ryan from Wisconsin. He is a voice of sanity in this financial mess but is anybody listening?
On a lighter note, just have to comment on the CCW Legislative Day and the Catholics at the Capitol. It was such an amazing and enriching experience, unforgettable really. More than 3,600 Catholics took the time to go to Springfield along with Cardinal George of the Archdiocese of Chicago, the Bishops of the other five dioceses in the state, several auxiliary bishops, priests, nuns, parents, nearly 100 ladies representing the Councils of Catholic Women from all over Illinois, and hundreds of children in their Catholic school uniforms. It was the largest single group who had ever come to the Capitol to lobby.
At the rally the first floor of the Rotunda was wall to wall people and then as you looked up there were kids lining the railings of the galleries on every level. They started with a prayer and then the children’s choir sang God Bless America for the Cardinal and the Bishops, their sweet voices drifting up to the huge dome. It was just incredible. Thank you to everyone who came out to stand up for your values. The legislators definitely knew we were there. And thank you to the wonderful women of the CCW who spent the day before listening to great speakers and learning all they could about the issues. The lovely luncheon in the ballroom of the Governor’s Mansion and the tour of this gorgeous home (third oldest governor’s mansion in America) was frosting on the cake. Who wouldn’t want to live in this beautiful house?!
I recently watched a video of some of the activities early on in the culture wars in America. I had almost forgotten the anger and conflict that took place outside of abortion clinics in those days. While I admire the conviction of those who participated in Operation Rescue, I think it has left an indelibly negative image of the pro-life movement on the minds of our fellow Americans. It is so different now. All that drama and anger are gone. Now there is just compassion and the desperate desire to keep these girls from doing something they will live to regret. There are two or three sidewalk counselors who try to talk to the clients and the rest of the people just stand and pray in support. It is peaceful, prayerful, hopeful, and helpful.
Finally please, please do not become discouraged. Our God is an AWESOME God. Certainly it is within His power to make good from evil. We are just His instruments and we must remain faithful to our own values. If you don’t believe that miracles still happen then you’re not paying attention. Father Corapi has it right when he says that we win in the end, whether it is here or in the hereafter. Hang in there.
Mike