Jivin J’s Life Links 5-11-09
by JivinJ
… [M]ost women with problem pregnancies quickly become discouraged and overwhelmed. “People hear these callous, insensitive remarks, things like ‘Why do you want to carry a baby like this?’ or ‘Are you religious or something?'” she says.
“The genetics counselors uniformly will hand out support information that assumes you’ll terminate.”…
The tragedy of abortion is bad enough, but the origin of the tragedy, and so many others of our time, emerges from worship not of Christ but of “me, me, me.”
Katherine Ragsdale may show this tendency in a heightened form, but all of us display it to some degree. May God have mercy on her, on her students, and on all of us.
The question on the table is not whether Notre Dame should hear from the president but whether Notre Dame should honor the president. A Catholic university can and should engage all comers, but in order to be true to itself — to have integrity — it should hesitate before honoring those who use their talents or power to bring about grave injustice.
The university is, and must remain, a bustling marketplace of ideas; at the same time, it also has a voice of its own. We say a lot about who we are and what we stand for through what we love and what we choose to honor. The controversy at ND is not about what should be said at Catholic universities, but about what should be said by a Catholic university….
The president’s error is not failing to submit to “Catholic” authority – why should he? – but aggressively and consistently promoting policies that are unjust because they deny the basic equality of every human being.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
The only thing funnier than when you use the term “MSM” is when you cite The Washington Times. I’m sure Rev. Sun Myung Moon and the rest of the Moonie owners of the Times appreciate the business.
Shut up yLT: go find somewhere else to haunt. Try reading the post for once. (sorry Jill)
now back to our regularly scheduled programming:
EVERYONE read the Washington Times article. It is great. There seems to be the start of a backlash over women who are carrying babies with disabilities who are pressured to abort.
The backlash seems to be headed by a lot of Catholic moms who are pressured to abort or to be induced early before “viability” so that the baby dies. This latter protocol is being used in many hospitals including “catholic” hospitals.
The Washington Times article also talks about Myah and baby Faith Hope!! :)
http://www.babyfaithhope.blogspot.com
YLT, instead of coming on here with default zingers, maybe you should try actually reading the article. It was a lovely story about women choosing life for their disabled children.
It’s so uplifting to read about hope, acceptance, and courage- all from women! It makes me very happy and proud to be the gender that I am (sorry gentlemen; you’re nice, too, though) and to be a human being. Hooray for hanging in there and seeing the light in the darkness!
re: Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2009 10:05 PM
They’re not obvious zingers – more like comments on a recurring theme. Visiting this board is like going skiing in Utah – it’s the only place on the planet where you can ride the chairlift with people oblivious to pop culture. I now know what its like to live in a community with no other TV but Highway To Heaven.
YLT,
You are welcome to leave.
YLO- a recurring theme? Try looking in the mirror. Your theme is that babies deserve to die and by the most painful process possible – by dismemberment. Their only crime is being conceived, something they had no say in.
I believe we stopped drawing and quartering people hundreds of years ago. It was only recently resurrected when abortion was made legal.
Nice that we can recognize you for the barbarian you truly are!
TLT, I travel plenty, thanks. Anyway, what person (s) in your life ever told you that abortion wasn’t murder?..You never should have listened. Grab a biology book from your local library, and read up on Human Develpoment. The embryo, zygote, fetus, and newborn all have something in commen. They are all stages of child development.
YLT, instead of coming on here with default zingers, maybe you should try actually reading the article. It was a lovely story about women choosing life for their disabled children.
Posted by: Lauren at May 11, 2009 10:05 PM————————————————————— I agree Lauren, but YLT knows what she’s talking about. The fact that death should have been the choice made here. It’s only “choice” when you choose death.
Pro-choicers really are Pro-death.
Pro-choicers really are Pro-death.
Posted by: heather at May 12, 2009 7:53 AM
Well that settles it. Thanks.
Don’t mention it. Hal, have you ever adopted? This is a question usually flung at PLfers, but I’d like to know.
The most accurate gauge we have of the effectiveness of any prolife tactic is how much screaming and writhing in pain we see from the proaborts. Judging by the agonizing screams coming from the poraborts who haunt this forum, some of our tactics must be working quite well.
Keep it up, deathers. We need your “input”.
Doyle, anyone would scream if you took away their rights. Look at the gun lobby, they cling to their armor piercing bullets like their lives depend on it.
For me, however, I’m just here for the laughs. No writhing in pain here.
Heather, we haven’t adopted.
For me, however, I’m just here for the laughs. No writhing in pain here.
What do you mean JUST HERE FOR LAUGHS?
Hal, you just finished saying that you gave a darn about post abortive women, now you’re here for laughs? That’s sick!
YLT, it’s almost funny that someone so obviouly young and ignorant would come on here and pretend to be illuminating the ways of the world for us cavemen.
Heather, I think that means, as long as nobody interferes with his way of life, he’s ok with everything…he’s here to be the devil’s advocate on pro-life issues but really doesn’t care about it.
It’s his way of amusing himself with us white-supremacist, right-wing, single-issue extremists.
It’s either he doesn’t grasp the gravity of the situation on the Culture of Death and it’s spiritual consequences on the souls of society or he simply just doesn’t care…either way “he’s here just for laughs”.
It’s his way of amusing himself with us white-supremacist, right-wing, single-issue extremists.
It’s either he doesn’t grasp the gravity of the situation on the Culture of Death and it’s spiritual consequences on the souls of society or he simply just doesn’t care…either way “he’s here just for laughs”.
Posted by: RSD at May 12, 2009 9:29 AM——————————————————————- I know. He needs to find something better to do with his time.
I can’t see how anything about abortion can be funny. That would be like laughing about kids with cancer. It’s beyond dispicible!!
*despicible*
It’s either he doesn’t grasp the gravity of the situation on the Culture of Death and it’s spiritual consequences on the souls of society or he simply just doesn’t care…either way “he’s here just for laughs”.
Posted by: RSD at May 12, 2009 9:29 AM
I don’t AGREE with you, I don’t think there’s a “gravity of the situation,” I don’t think there are spiritual consequences on the soulds of society,” and I don’t care too much about your doomed efforts to impose your views on the rest of us. It’s entertaining. Some here are very decent people, with different opinions than mine. Many, however, I find hold views that are “beyond despicable.”
So, you can read this without laughing?
“Pro-choicers really are Pro-death.”
or anything Hisman writes?
Some of you guys are so disparately clinging to your religion and your outdated views, you’re angry and frustrated, and you are filled with hate. You are SO SERIOUS about this abortion issue. I suppose it gives your life purpose.
As for me, I’m satisfied with the way things are headed. For the first time in my adult life, I’m really proud to be an American.
Hal, yeah, right.
“For the first time in my adult life, I’m really proud to be an American.”
Good one, Hal.
You and Michelle.
* * * *
“Some of you guys are so disparately clinging to your religion and your outdated views, you’re angry and frustrated, and you are filled with hate. You are SO SERIOUS about this abortion issue. I suppose it gives your life purpose.”
Are you quoting Obama?
Janet, Obama would say it better.
Hal, you have been reading the threads at this site for how long? And you finally figured that one out (“you are SO SERIOUS about this abortion issue”)?
Janet and Eileen#2..lol!!!!
Janet, Obama would say it better.
Yeah, his delivery can be ever so eloquent ;-P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omHUsRTYFAU
Oh my gosh…now that was bad!!!! He sounded stoned.
Hal ought to look at this one. Look at the You Tube responses Hal, and see how many people are apologizing for voting for him!!!
Fed Up,
He doesn’t have say anything but they STILL vote for him ’cause he’s soooo cute.
Janet & Heather, Palin Derangement Syndromers who comment here would be having a field day if it were Sarah in this video. But the Great One gets a free pass.
Hal, you are incredibly offensive. Go away, please. Or, you can repent and ask Jesus to be your Savior. If He can forgive you for your crudeness and cruelty, with His help, I will try to as well.
I am sick and tired of people who think my children have no rights and are not human until they are born. This is a religious/philosophical view with no basis in science or reality, and it hurts anyone who has had an abortion, who has lost an unborn child, or even who has had an unborn child at some point. I am pregnant with my second child–or maybe my twelfth. Is that really funny to you? Because if it is, you are truly sick. So if you want to laugh at me, at least have the decency not to comment.
You killed your children and don’t regret it. My children died through no fault of my own and I miss them every day. Wouldn’t the world be a better place if those who desperately want to save the lives of children were taken seriously? If those whose children are such an inconvenience they are to be discarded like an exploded appendix could simply discard them a few months later into the arms of those who would love them and take care of them?
Once upon a time, mothers gave up their lives (figuratively) for their children to have better lives. Now children give up their lives (literally) so that their mothers can have better lives (supposedly). How far we have come.
Fed Up, I know. He was bumbling about Budweiser, and then he went off into left field, and all of the drones were laughing.
YCW, great post! Oh yes. A better life for the women. The trouble is, it may seem that way for a while, but it eventually ends up the opposite. There is a ton of truth to the saying “One dead, One wounded.”
“Hal, you are incredibly offensive. Go away, please.”
What would you talk about here if we left? Here’s what I saw at this site before the pro choicers came on board:
“beautiful post Jill, I agree completely.”
Here’s what I’ll try to do. Lurk quietly and stay out of the abortion debate. I’ll throw in my two cents when terribly offensive things are said about our President, the rights of our gay and lesbians brothers and sisters, or other current events.
Hal,
You have a unique privilege being here. I have tried to post on PC sites only to never see my comments or they are immediately deleted. How’s that for “tolerance” and an honest, respectful dialog?
Jill is much more patient than I with comments and commenters and I am glad for you that this is a very safe place for you to share your views.
YCW:
I share your offense when people talk flippantly about unborn life. I think most who have lost a child to stillbirth or miscarriage (as I have) feel a twinge of pain when someone, even a stranger, speaks recklessly about the unborn in any context. I find it ironic that a major tenant of the pro-choice platform is about doing what they believe is best for women, yet they don’t realize (or don’t care, in an “ends justifies the means” sort of way) that there rhetoric is often hurtful to the millions of women and families who have lost an unborn child. It’s very difficult to deal with the grief of losing a child, and it’s a confusing and isolating sort of grief when you never got to hold the child in your arms. People tend to be dismissive of miscarriage and stillbirth, even though those touched by it suffer incredibly. Perhaps this is in part due to a culture that places only arbitrary value on the unborn – they cannot fathom how someone could have unconditional love for someone they consider practically imaginary.
Hal:
“Some of you guys are so disparately clinging to your religion and your outdated views, you’re angry and frustrated, and you are filled with hate. You are SO SERIOUS about this abortion issue. I suppose it gives your life purpose.”
How does saying things like this bring an iota of intellect to the abortion debate? Why ridicule the seriousness of those who advocate for human rights for the unborn? There’s no need to be mean spirited. I’ve read many of your posts and they’re often thought-provoking. This? Not so much.
In writing to Hal, Janette quoted: “Some of you guys are so disparately clinging to your religion and your outdated views, you’re angry and frustrated, and you are filled with hate. You are SO SERIOUS about this abortion issue. I suppose it gives your life purpose.”
At first, I thought you were talking about Hal, Janette. What he wrote seems to fit himself better than pro-lifers. They show love for all human beings. And as a Christian, I have a life purpose that is greater and much better than myself or the abortion issue (which, despite Hal’s neglect to note, is a dead baby).
Janette,
I agree wholeheartedly with you about miscarriage. I spoke about my abortion and 2 miscarriages at a women’s ministry a couple of weeks ago. Women kept coming up to me afterward and saying, “You mean I can name that baby?” or “But, I was told it was nothing, so I tried to forget about it.” They were not given permission by anyone to grieve the very real loss of their babies.
Here’s what I’ll try to do. Lurk quietly and stay out of the abortion debate. I’ll throw in my two cents when terribly offensive things are said about our President, the rights of our gay and lesbians brothers and sisters, or other current events.
Posted by: Hal at May 13, 2009 8:44 AM——————————————————————– Why? Nobody asked you to be a watchdog. Terribly offensive? Are you for real?
Hal, our gay brothers and sisters? What do you mean by that? I think everyone has a gay friend or two. I do! Heck, they love me to death. I just don’t agree with their lifestyle. What if you knew a woman who was abused by her husband, yet she chose to stay with him. You may not approve, but it wouldn’t make you like her any less. You may even want to help her.
See Heather, how dare we say anything PCers should disagree with. THAT is offensive to them. (Oh, and of course, it’s all based on our horrible “religion” – apparently, even for the pro-life atheists among us.)
However, the slaughter of innocent human beings and the experiences of those who have gone through abortions… eh, that’s “laughable.”
Kel, great point. Hal’s terribly offended by everything except for abortion.
I’ve read many of your posts and they’re often thought-provoking.
Posted by: Janette at May 13, 2009 10:41 AM
I agree, Janette. One thing that makes Hal different from most other proaborts here is that he sometimes offers an opposing view without attacking the poster he’s responding to. I appreciate that. And he sometimes expresses empathy for prolifers like Carla, even if he disagrees with her politically.
As irritating as trolls can be, sometimes they do offer an opportunity to view things from a different perspective. Take the recent remarks about “septic abortion wards” and “borderline personality disorder” on other threads. Those comments got me thinking about self-mutilation as a factor in self-induced abortion. I don’t know that I’d have considered that perspective without the comments of our beloved trolls here.
I find it ironic that a major tenant of the pro-choice platform is about doing what they believe is best for women, yet they don’t realize (or don’t care, in an “ends justifies the means” sort of way) that there rhetoric is often hurtful to the millions of women and families who have lost an unborn child. It’s very difficult to deal with the grief of losing a child, and it’s a confusing and isolating sort of grief when you never got to hold the child in your arms. People tend to be dismissive of miscarriage and stillbirth, even though those touched by it suffer incredibly. Perhaps this is in part due to a culture that places only arbitrary value on the unborn – they cannot fathom how someone could have unconditional love for someone they consider practically imaginary.
Posted by: Janette at May 13, 2009 10:41 AM
-Janette, like many women, I have girlfriends and acquaintances who have suffered through miscarriage. I recognize, acknowledge and comfort them in grief. Our individual politics on abortion ever, ever enter the discussion. It is simply about acknowledging your friends’ pain and relating woman to woman.
Danielle,
Although I wouldn’t consider us “friends” per se, we have discussed things at length here. Do you acknowledge my pain relating to abortion and miscarriage? Do you realize the grief in both cases? I would say that the abortion grief is more profound for me as I made a “choice” and my baby died in an abortion clinic.
Or is it really just “politics” for you?
I am being totally sincere by the way and just want to pick your brain today. I love that you are there for your friends in their time of need!
Carla,
I acknowledge your pain, as I have said before. I recognize that you had a painful and traumatic experience with abortion, felt forced to make a decision you really didn’t want to make and have regretted it ever since. Just because I don’t believe that all or even most women have the same outcome, that doesn’t reduce your personal experience or my empathy for it. So of course, if we were ‘friends’ you would have my support and I would never put my pro-choice beliefs up as some sort of consolation. That why I say sometimes, your politics need to be left at the door and just help the one who needs it.
Thank you, Danielle. I appreciate that! I haven’t seen you here in awhile. How are you doing?
Carla,
It’s amazing how often miscarriage is swept under the rug and women suffer in silence. I’m glad people like you are speaking out about your experience and helping people heal. It takes guts.
Danielle,
I appreciate that you show compassion to those who have miscarried. It’s not as if I think pro-choicers are intentionally being insensitive about miscarriage, but some of their statements in favor of abortion can easily be applied to natural pregnany loss. For example, one popular pro-choice argument is that while the unborn baby is genetically human, they are not yet considered persons. That tells me that my lost child, who has a name and that I love and miss, was not even a person. That’s hurtful to me, even though I realize the argument was not directed towards miscarriage. Now, if you couple that with someone acting flippant or crude about the abortion issue, their pro-choice arguments then seem especially hurtful to those who’ve lost an unborn child.
The disconnect you are talking about Janette I think will be big abortion’s undoing. In one state, if you murder a pregnant woman you get charged with 2 deaths. In a different state, you get charged with 1. It seems a little schizophrenic to me.
Is that child a human person or isn’t she? If she is, she deserves protection by law. If she isn’t a human person then I have no problem with abortion. Why would any of us have a problem with abortion if she is simply not a human person?
And why if she is not a human person, why the grief after miscarriage or abortion?
Janette,
It hurts me as well when my children or my grief is simply dismissed.
I haven’t seen you here in awhile. How are you doing?
Posted by: Carla at May 13, 2009 2:10 PM
-I’m doing great Carla, thanks for asking. I’ve been here, but regressed back to reading more vs. replying more. I’ve grown wearier of addressing some threads once they’ve gotten off the ground…the environment has become particularly acidic lately, IMO, and there’s not a lot of debates that add any value. Everyone goes down swinging and still stays on their side of the perch, beliefs unwavered. I’m much more selective, that’s all. Letting the fur fly, as it were :) Hope you’re doing well.
For example, one popular pro-choice argument is that while the unborn baby is genetically human, they are not yet considered persons. That tells me that my lost child, who has a name and that I love and miss, was not even a person. That’s hurtful to me, even though I realize the argument was not directed towards miscarriage.
Posted by: Janette at May 13, 2009 2:13 PM
-That’s just it, Janette – I would never go there with somone who’s dealing with a miscarriage or stillbirth, that’s just way too inappropriate and insensitive. I certainly hope that wasn’t the experience of anyone here.
Now, if you’re talking about debating the issue of abortion, that’s different. We’re here anonymously on an online message board discussing a single issue. Discretion is wiped away most of the time. Of course we will probe and reveal more intimate details on our history, beliefs, positions, etc. than we would in normal conversation around a dinner table because you’re asking a specific question. But most of the time, the topic of abortion comes up rarely and briefly face to face, unless its on purpose. It’s a land mine most people avoid. So, you know I’m pro-choice, why, how, etc. and vice versa. You probably know more about how I feel and why about things like miscarriage, late term, IVF, personhood, etc than some people who know me personally. If you were having a conversation, only small cues are needed to figure out someone’s position (‘I volunteer at PP/CPC’) and after that, most times people back out of the conversation, unless they support your viewpoint. The polite ones will respect the difference and move on. This is the only reason, at least for me, that someone would know such intimate details about my beliefs – because you asked, and I’ve chosen this platform to lay them bare. If you are grieving a miscarriage, abortion, stillbirth and choose to engage in debate online, it has to cross your mind that you may hear/read things you don’t want to. That said, this doesn’t excuse obnoxious behavior.
Miscarriage and abortion deserve equal mourning and sympathy. Carla, I’m very sorry for your loss, as well as the others here who have had miscarriages. I believe that very few people say they are sorry about miscarriage, especially if it was early in the pregnancy, because abortion is used as birth control. And many people have fallen for the “blob of tissue” lie as I had for so many years. I’ve heard others tell me that after miscarriage, people say things like “Oh, you can just try again.”
Danielle,
Then you and I are doing the same thing. :) I read way more than I comment lately and tend to stay out of quite a few of the threads, as well. I get plumb tuckered out. I am doing well!! You and I would be friends in “real life” I think!! LOL
Heather,
Thank you for your sweet thoughts about my babies!!
Oy!!! I could write a book about some of the things people have said to me after miscarriage. A hug, say, “I’m so sorry.” Is that too much to ask? :)
Danielle,
I agree with pretty much everything you said. I do realize that since miscarriage and abortion both deal directly with the unborn that unpleasant (to me) points are an inevitable part of the debate. I don’t fault anyone for bringing these up nor do I want to discourage them from speaking their mind. I wouldn’t use my miscarriage as an arguing technique to guilt them into abandoning their point. But since abortion is a sensitive topic, it seems that when people approach it mockingly or flippantly, they are trying to be hurtful. I don’t expect people to cater to my sensitivity over a personal tragedy and I don’t want them to filter their speech to accomdate me, but I do expect them to approach a serious topic with some consideration for others.
Hal,
You have a unique privilege being here. I have tried to post on PC sites only to never see my comments or they are immediately deleted. How’s that for “tolerance” and an honest, respectful dialog?
Jill is much more patient than I with comments and commenters and I am glad for you that this is a very safe place for you to share your views.
Posted by: Carla at May 13, 2009 10:23 AM
Carla, I agree completely. I have no complaints of the way I’ve been treated here. I appreciate Jill’s philosophy of allowing dissent. I’m sure some “liberal” sites aren’t so “open minded.”
And, I try (lord knows I try) not to be a jerk. Sometimes I fall short.
Why? Nobody asked you to be a watchdog. Terribly offensive? Are you for real?
Posted by: heather at May 13, 2009 12:19 PM
Very real indeed. I appointed myself. It’s a lifetime appointment, and only Jill can fire me.
Hal said Lord. No wait. Hal said lord. :P
The thing is, Danielle, that you cannot be truly compassionate toward someone who has lost an unborn child, because you cannot acknowledge what that person has lost. You cannot be compassionate toward everyone at once–you sure as heck aren’t compassionate towards the children whose mothers walk by you to have them killed. I do not want sympathy from people who think it’s okay to kill babies. They might feel bad for me, but they do not have the capacity to be any comfort. I have told almost no one about what I have been through in my real life. My immediate family doesn’t know, because I’m not sure how pro-life they are, and I don’t want to hear stupid things about my children. I would rather suffer in silence than hear people treat my children as if they are worthless and not people.
If you think you can support both women who want to kill their children and those who have lost their children, you are wrong. It isn’t possible.