Late-term abortionist Carhart wants to continue Tiller’s “mission”
From the Associated Press, June 2:
Physician LeRoy Carhart wants to continue providing third-term abortions after the brazen slaying of his friend and colleague George Tiller, but the NE doctor doesn’t have anywhere to perform them – and he’s one of only a handful of providers who will….
Carhart, 67, is one of a handful of remaining doctors in the United States who perform third-trimester abortions….
Ok, blech, let me pause here and say third trimester abortions are never medically necessary….
The 3rd trimester begins at 28 weeks, when over 90% of healthy babies survive. It is just as easy if not easier and safer to deliver a late-term baby rather than abort. Not once in this long article on the topic of late-late-term abortions was the question addressed, “Why?” Continuing this advocacy piece on the killing of viable babies:
Carhart, a vocal abortion rights advocate who has been at the epicenter of the debate on what abortion foes call partial-birth abortions, first met Tiller more than 20 years ago and began working at the Wichita clinic a decade ago. He said he regularly traveled to KS for a few days every third week. He only performs third-term abortions at Tiller’s clinic…,.
The former Air Force surgeon also operates his own clinic, Abortion & Contraception Clinic of Nebraska, in a nondescript building in a working-class neighborhood of Bellevue, an Omaha suburb. But he said he doesn’t perform abortions past the 22nd week of pregnancy there.
Let’s take a station break to view photos of Carhart’s “nondescript building,” taken in March 2009 on the day it reopened following refurbishment after a fire (NOT blamed on pro-lifers). It was almost immediately shut down because Carhart reopened without getting an occupancy permit, as I previously reported, and was running his electricity off a generator…
Continuing the article:
The type of late-term abortions performed by Tiller, Carhart and the handful of others are rare…. Less than 2% of abortions occur at 21 weeks of pregnancy or later, according to Guttmacher Institute, a reproductive-health think tank. It is unknown how many are done specifically in the third trimester, but Carhart said 75 to 100 of the “several thousand” abortions he performs annually are in the third trimester.
Abortion rights advocates also worry the group of physicians who can provide the service is dwindling.
“There are very, very few abortions that happen at that time,” said Nancy Northrup, president of the Center for Reproductive Rights, who said she worries about a “severe shortage” of physicians who can perform the procedure. “People who need those services need caring and compassionate and qualified doctors like Dr. Tiller who are able to provide those services.”
With Tiller’s death, there are fewer than 10 doctors who perform third-trimester abortions in the United States, Carhart estimated, and though he has worked with younger physicians before, he hasn’t trained any abortion providers in third-trimester techniques for at least five years.
That’s because not only is there no need for third-trimester abortions, no self-respecting bonafide doctor would step foot in Carhart’s filthy mill. Continuing on:
Another doctor who performs third-trimester abortions, 70-year-old Warren Hern of Boulder, CO, said he’s also concerned there won’t be enough doctors trained to perform abortions in the future. Hern is an associate clinical professor at the University of CO-Denver School of Medicine, but he said he hasn’t been asked to speak on the topic of abortion at the school in 21 years….
Hern, who is being protected by U.S. Marshals following Tiller’s killing, said many medical schools shy away from teaching about abortion and doctors don’t want to learn about it….
Another station break. Hern is the guy who grandiosely and delusionally told the Los Angeles Times on June 1 ” he was now ‘the only doctor in the world’ who performed very late-term abortions….”
About late-term abortions, Hern also wrote in a paper presented to Planned Parenthood abortionists in 1978, “We have reached a point in this particular technology where there is no possibility of denial of an act of destruction by the operator. It is before one’s eyes. The sensation of dismemberment flows through the forceps like an electric current.”
How totally bizarre. Continuing the AP piece:
A day after Tiller was shot, Carhart vowed to reopen his friend’s KS clinic and continue Tiller’s mission. But on Tuesday, Tiller’s family said there were no plans to reopen. Carhart said he remains hopeful that Tiller’s family will change their minds. If not, he hopes another abortion provider will open a clinic in KS where he can work part-time.
For Carhart, the dispute over abortion is personal. In 1991, his family’s rural home burned in a fire apparently started by an abortion foe….
On that last paragraph, “apparently” – says Carhart. No one was ever apprehended or prosecuted.
I’ve pulled excerpts, but this entire article is worth reading to gain a fuller understanding that MSM has seized upon Tiller’s murder to lionize late-term abortionists. So have pro-aborts. It can’t get much more bizarre than this, by RH Reality Check’s Amie Newman, in a June 1 column entitled “The circle continues: Dr. Carhart takes on Tiller’s practice.” (Funny, and speaking of lions, when I hear “circle of…” I think of the Lion King’s “circle of life.” Whoops, not so here.)
In this piece Newman repeated a presumptive statement Carhart made to the Omaha World-Herald the day of TIller’s murder that “he said he was en route to Wichita to run Tiller’s clinic for at least the next week.” What a hero, but whoops, it didn’t happen.
Anyway, get out the violins. Wrote Newman:
Never mind, of course, the children. Pro-lifers love them both. Pro-aborts can’t.
[HT: Sonia Dalton and Leslie Hanks; attribution for photo of Carhart: AP; for photos of Carhart’s mill: Dr-Tiller.com]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
This is a great piece, Jill.
Wow, Carhart’s mill looks like a hellhole…
“There are very, very few abortions that happen at that time,” said Nancy Northrup, president of the Center for Reproductive Rights”
Didn’t George Tiller admit to/brag about having killed
60,000?
A nondescript building? Now that’s what I call being charitable. I wonder if illegal abortionists were ever described as running their businesses out of “nondescript” buildings.
Are those “port a potties” I see in the parking lot? I know the place got its electrical power from a generator but outhouses?
Hey, nothing but the best for you ladies.
I would say it looks like a stolen car chopshop but even car thieves have higher standards.
Kel,
It IS a hellhole. It IS a little piece of hell.
This is worth saying again and again and again.
Third trimester abortions are NEVER medically necessary.
This is the literal, back-alley abortion of the legal kind.
Could someone who works in a hospital answer this? Why would a hospital doctor refuse to perform a late-term abortion on a deformed fetus? If the ultrasound revealed a deformity so heart-breaking and the child had a near-zero chance of survival outside the womb, would the hospital find someone willing to kill the child since it might fit within their standards as an “emergency?”
If that is the case, the idea that Tiller and others are performing “life-saving” procedures makes no sense. Because if these fetal conditions were so dire, wouldn’t the hospital have taken care of it rather than shoving the woman out the door?
Trust women indeed! How about take advantage of women for profit!
Less than 2% of abortions, Guttmacher says? There are what now, 1.3M abortions a year in the US? Less than 2% is less than 26,000 late term abortions. Wow. Something to be proud of – NOT!
Carhart is ONE SICK MAN. He is doing the work of the Devil. I wouldn’t trust that man to do dental work on me, let alone deliver (not abort) a baby!
Third trimester abortions are NOT NECESSARY.
How do those people sleep at night? Can’t they see thousands of little, dead bodies with crushed heads? Do they NOT see that what they are doing is murder?!?!
Sounds like Carhart is just as grandiose and delusional as Hern.
Be careful, Ashley, we’re not allowed to call Abortion “murder” according to those who are on the pro choice side. *face rolling eyes*
taxpayer funded NPR inteviewed Warren Hern yesterday, they pretty much kissed his behind.
The MSM are on the pro-aborts side, no doubt about it. After all, they are pro-aborts themselves.
The tragedy of the above photo’s is that we as a society have not given women any better “choice” for dealing with crisis pregnancies.
The fact that women have to go to a dump like this, and to a deranged sociopath to eliminate “the problem” is a sad commentary on how we have so little respect for life and make abortion the easy way out.
We have reached that lowest possible point where EVERYTHING is now “disposable”…including life itself…at any stage, for any reason…for any price.
God help us.
As a building inspection engineer, I can tell you that the building’s parking area does not appear to meet any minimum standards for the American’s with Disability’s Act.
There does not appear any striped parking areas delineated for handicapped parking nor any that are marked with the proper signage. Further, the pavement and sidewalks (flat work) appear to be in disrepair and very rough and not flat.
If the building was designed, constructed, or altered with Federal funds the it must comply with ADA requirements. Also, because it’s a two story building any services offered that are paid for with Federal funds and are done on the second floor must be handicap accessible, i.e., there must be an ADA approved elevator. This would cost about $50,000 or more to install.
See this: http://www.ada.gov/cguide.htm#anchor66055
“The Architectural Barriers Act (ABA) requires that buildings and facilities that are designed, constructed, or altered with Federal funds, or leased by a Federal agency, comply with Federal standards for physical accessibility. ABA requirements are limited to architectural standards in new and altered buildings and in newly leased facilities. They do not address the activities conducted in those buildings and facilities. Facilities of the U.S. Postal Service are covered by the ABA. For more information or to file a complaint, contact:
U.S. Architectural and Transportation Barriers Compliance Board
1331 F Street, N.W., Suite 1000
Washington, D.C. 20004-1111
http://www.access-board.gov
(800) 872-2253 (voice)
(800) 993-2822 (TTY)”
At a minimum, the local code authorities,
http://www.bellevue.net/code%20enforcement.html
could shut him down since, depending on the scope of the remodel, they could have required that the entire building be brought up to current codes and ordinances.
The link I referenced has a statement about inoperable vehicles being parked is not allowed, for example. Call this guy: Chief Building Official, Steve Carmichael, 402-293-3015 steve.carmichael@bellevue.net
Any one who lives down there can file a complaint with the code jurisdiction officials down there. They would then have to investigate.
If the city of Bellevue didn’t comply I would then go the the State of Nebraska’s Attorney General office. Just looking at Bellevue’s website tells me that this is a backwater town. It’s pathetic. I wouldn’t doubt that there’s some payola going on. I say go after everybody.
Finally, I will pray for Dr. Carhart as I prayed for Dr. Tiller. I really hope he stops doing what he’s doing soon.
I take these statements with a grain of salt, although this is revealing (emphasis mine):
Either the author is outright lying or Carhart and Hern are being completely avoided by those who are studying to practice abortion. Hern is the author of the standard textbook on the practice. From Hern’s own website (skip visiting the site – it’s got an asian web-virus):
It would be nice to know current sales volume of the book, as well as what alternatives are used and taught in medical schools.
Are Carhart, Hern & Tiller avoided by medical schools due to pro-life education about late-term abortion or are they considered dinosaurs by the abortion industry because medical technology advanced way past their understanding of late term abortion practice?
Or have things now moved to the point where induced labor and external “fetal demise” is now the accepted practice?
Carhart’s button should read “Trust Me”.
Speaking of Tiller, the best article I have seen so far on the subject of the morality of his killing can be found at:
http://www.christorchaos.com
Clixk on “Reichstag II” on June 1.
Well said Mike.
The angry pro-choice women libbers of the 60’s and 70’s that fought for this choice…. I hope they are proud of themselves. As long as women are kept in the dark as to the after effects and dangers of abortion,it is still a man’s world. Hopefully the young authentic feminists of the future can enlighten and prevent women to be exploited by these mill providers. I refuse to call them doctors.
Carla, Cranky Catholic,
Exactly. Why go to an abortionist when a good OB/GYN can handle any of these difficult cases??? A good doctor (non-abortionist) is always there to save the baby and the mother.
After abortion was legalized in the U.S. 1973, hospitals started doing early abortions for the “convenience” of the mother regardless of the reason. The pro-abort feminists were unhappy because the control was taken away from them, something they hadn’t foreseen happening. The hospitals didn’t do “late term abortions” as we understand it today because normal obstetric care didn’t do late term abortion “on demand”. If an emergency arose, it was dealt with according to normal procedure as a doctor saw fit. The abortion industry saw abortion as an easy way to make money and separate clinics and chains rose up around the country, under the guise of “helping women” who they’d brainwashed to think abortion was a good idea.
Fast forward to 2009. Was the abortion industry really necessary? Are we better off with 50 million people in our country?
I found Nebraska Vital statistics for abortion in 2008, 2,702 abortions-Length of Gestation* (in weeks) was not reported, so we dont know how old those 2,702 preborn babies were when they were killed. According to what I found Caharts abortion center is in Sarpy County where 1,949 were done in 2008. Someone might look into the reporting laws of Nebraska and find out if the law is being violated. Here’s the link to 2008 Nebraska Report on Abortions in 2008: http://www.hhs.state.ne.us/srd/ABORTION2008RPT.PDF
To find other years I did a search on Statistical Report of Abortions http://www.nebraska.gov/search/search.cgi
I wrote this blog before Tiller was killed called “In Your Father’s Name” where I asked for people to donate money to their local CPC in their Father’s Name. I will be donating to the Pregnancy Center that is next door to Tillers Abortion Center in my Father’s name. http://tinyurl.com/fathersname
Since Carhart is suppose to resume abortions sometime next week it will be needed more then ever to help support Choices Medical Clinic.
To answer the question… if the child was in the third trimester and was deemed medically incompatible with life, the mother would have the choice of waiting until labor started on its own, inducing early, or if medical complications arose for the mother, induction or c-section would be performed. The baby would be given full care as a separate patient, although the parents would have the right, as any parents, to determine how medically invasive the care would be. Both mother and child would be treated in safe, medically responsible way. Carhart and Tiller are unnecessary.
that should say:
“50 million fewer people in our country”
Doctors preserve life, they don’t TAKE LIFE.
The Hippocratic Oath has become the Hippocritic oath. One of the lines of the Hippocratic Oath is “First, do no harm,”
Abortion does harm! So does Assisted Suicide and Euthanasia.
This may have been covere already but I just read that the man who murdered Tiller was schizophrenic and wasnt taking his medication.
I had to ask myself, what would cause a young intern doctor to become a late term abortionist when there are so many other opportunities to serve? Insecurity, poor grades, incompetence, childhood trauma?
I wonder if there’s a way to get a hold of Tiller’s, Carhart’s and Hern’s medical school grade transcripts. I bet those would answer a lot of questions.
I’ve got to say that it is probably due to one’s own perception that they would not be a standout doctor, i.e., the only one or one of three in any other field of medicine. Also, the greed factor is there as well. Perhaps they thought because of their mediocrity that they could make as much money.
They then cover their own sense of insecurity with the false mantle that they are protecting women, i. e. “Trust Women”. No they’re not. They are killing women, both the women in the womb and the souls of the mother.
And why would I want to trust any woman who: 1) Had sex that could result in a pregnancy she could not support and 2) Want to kill the very baby growing inside of her?
No, the button should have read: “Love Women” by counseling them not to abort their babies.
Liz,
I believe that faithful line is now removed from most of the current/modern versions of the Oath.
The line removed (in 1964) states:
“I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy.”
It was replaced with:
“But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.”
The rest is now bloody history…
“I’ve got to say that it is probably due to one’s own perception that they would not be a standout doctor, i.e., the only one or one of three in any other field of medicine. Also, the greed factor is there as well. Perhaps they thought because of their mediocrity that they could make as much money.”
=============================================
Hisman..you are correct.
My wife was an MD before she gave that up to focus and raise our family…and she states that MD’s that go into abortion are the bottom-scraping kind of scum with no morals, no empathy to patients nor their families (ie..no bedside manners) and are in it (the medical profession) only for themselves…either only to make a name or money or both…they are not there to Heal.
They are, generally, looked-down upon by their Medical peers.
Regarding your “Ok, blech, let me pause here and say third trimester abortions are never medically necessary….”
I’d love to see some citing from reputable sources indicating this is true.
I’m not criticizing your opinion, I am a fan of arguments supported by actual facts.
Thank you.
Carhart is creepy. That junk yard he operates (i have seen pics before) is the back alley deal that they promised women to get away from. Like I have said for years. The veterinarians have higher standards for cats and dogs.
Also, it’s fairly rich to make a tactic out of denying doctors clinic space, then using the clinic space they have to settle for as a weapon against them.
Fully consistent, but rich nonetheless.
Wow, it seems like the trolls have come out in full force.
There are medical situations in which labor must be induced early or c-sections performed. There is no medical reason for the child to be killed prior to either of these procedures.
Futhermore, there is no medical reaons for a woman to go to an outpatient clinic, undergo cervical dialation over several days in a hospital room, deliver a dead baby, and be immeditely released back to the hotel room.
If a woman’s life is in danger, labor should be immedietly induced within a hospital setting. Everything possible should be done to save both the mother and child. The mother should remain hospitalized for the appropriate time following her delivery.
I’m sorry. That should read “several days in a hotel room” not “several days in a hospital room.”
“therapeutic abortions “…
there is nothing “therapeutic” about abortions…not to the woman and never for the baby in the womb…
Xanthippas,
Wasn’t legal abortion the answer? Didn’t it mean these conditions would never exist?
What stops Carhart from setting up a modern clinic, one that actually has electricity, not a generator, in a nice neighborhood?
Anon, Kansas law says: substantial and irreversible bodily harm. Subsequent definitions have included “metal health” as bodily harm. Reasons cited in Tiller’s records included: unable to attend a rock concert, unable to play H.S. sports
Auguste,
Ever wonder why anyone won’t rent them office space? Also, who forces the building owners to refuse to rent office space?
Welcome the trolls. The veiws per day should go up because the Tiller publicity drives googling information. People can see and learn her. They get truthfull posts deleted at liberal newspapers.
Jill has high standards. No cussing and attacking of others and the truth is important.
HisMan, Tiller’s illegal abortion providing father died in a plane crash. Tiller began his career shortly thereafter.
Also, being from Kansas and operating a pro-life booth, I heard a story from a gentleman who’s MD friend went to medical school w/ Tiller. He said Tiller tried to get him to partner w/ him in the abortion field. The MD said Tiller was espousing the exurbanite amounts of money they would make doing them.
Auguste,
While the article is quite the sob story, have you ever wondered why anyone won’t rent them office space? Also, who forces the building owners to refuse to rent office space?
For all his work on the place Carhart overlooked electricity. How hard up, orjust plain stupid, is this guy?
*exorbitant*
wow! when I looked at the pictures the following came to mind:
chopshop, butcher, seedy, and yes it definitely is a piece of hell.
And this isn’t back alley abortion? I’d be expecting bloody floors, walls, and a dirty, smelly “doctor”.
Lauren 1:01PM
Excellent post. I would add that in any health or life threatening situation at any point in pregnancy, everything necessary will be done to preserve the mother’s life and health and that of her unborn child as well.
She need only go to a hospital capable of managing her care.
Have any of these trolls ever heard of high risk maternal care and neonatal intensive care units?
Just what kind of patients and situations do these high risk maternal care units handle? Dahhhhh.
There is nothing new about obstetrical emergencies requiring premature induction or cesarean section. In the last trimester they do not require the killing of the baby first
Can you imagine calling for directions to this dump?
Receptionist:
“Yes, you will see a large sign that says abortion/contraception when you pull into the parking lot from the BACK ALLEY. Just park next to the hunk of junk pick up truck with a flat tire or better yet, park next to the group of red port o potties. This may be easier as we always ask for a urine sample prior to any procedure. There are styrofoam cups in each stall for your convenience.” Be careful with the sample as you walk to the entrance. The parking lot is not paved and quite muddy.”
Ick. Ick. Ick.
Is that acutally a truck stencil on the brick exterior wall?
What a disgusting place.
Sandy,
LOL. You might add to be careful not to hit the port o potties as there might be a patient or staff in one.
If this guy doesn’t have brains enough to make certain his building has electricity, why would anyone assume he knows enough to have indoor plumging?
Oh, and don’t pay attention to any police raids in progress on the garage next to the back entrance.
Sandy,
I just noticed the stencil. Certainly gives the place class.
What is that “wacker” trailer near the entrance.
Oh, you would want to warn clients about avoiding the dumpster as well located in front of the lovely beige building that looks something like a drug den.
wow! when I looked at the pictures the following came to mind:
chopshop, butcher, seedy, and yes it definitely is a piece of hell.
And this isn’t back alley abortion? I’d be expecting bloody floors, walls, and a dirty, smelly “doctor”.
Thanks for the replies. I think the case can be made that the mere fact a mother boarded a plane or drove a thousand miles to a late-term abortion clinic like Tiller or Carhart’s, then it wasn’t a “necessary” procedure in the first place.
The media doesn’t ask the question, “Why does a mother have to go to an abortion clinic for a medically necessary abortion?” (If the doctors in the hospital won’t do it, then hold the hospitals accountable.) Why are there so few doctors doing it? Because doctors won’t kill a third-trimester child just because the mother broke up with her boyfriend.
Jill, this is excellent. The legitimate medical community’s snub of late term abortionists is definitely telling.
Equally telling is how abortionists hate proposed legislation that they be required to have hospital privileges.
Late term abortion clinics are, in a word, rackets. Actually, rackets run by quacks, in other words, “quackets.” They are a “legal” illegality, like all abortion clinics. Abortionists do what would be illegal for anyone else to do without the protection of the powerful. As Lila Rose’s undercover documentaries and thousands of pieces of documentation have shown, they exploit young victims of rape and incest and lie to protect rapists. They feed off of fear and deception, and exaggerate the risks of pregnancy and birth. They are not in it to “trust women” or any of that hooey. They are in it for the cash!
If so many women, as these abortionists say, are special cases who desperately need late term abortions, what about the great majority of women in the same circumstances treated at hospitals by real OBs? Are we sincerely expected to believe their claim that they, the heroic late term abortionists, are providing better treatment than the majority of the medical community? How asinine. It’s like the guys who say you’ll never get out of debt without their Ponzi scheme or the quacks who say you’ll never lose weight without the latest dangerous fad. The media has made Tiller and cronies out to be heroes and martyrs, who saved women’s lives and were the womens’ only hope. Yet, the media have never produced a single instance of a condition that could not have been handled in a safer and more humane way by a hospital.
The media’s apotheosis of George Tiller and snub of murdered Army private William Long, is also, indeed, very telling.
HisMan: Good insights about Carhart’s dump.
“Late-term abortions are NEVER necessary.”
I would have to disagree. Andrew Sullivan’s blog ran a number of compelling stories from mothers, family members, doctors, etc.
One example: assuming that a woman gravely ill from cancer could not have a medical need for an abortion is a rather fanatical conclusion.
Catherine,
As I pointed out previously, there are maternal high risk units.
There are medical specialists. There are OB specialists.
Pregnant women can get whatever medical is necessary to preserve their health and life.
I can’t imagine any OB or family practitioner diagnosing a serious risk factor in a pregnant patient and not referring the patient for specialized care.
I can see the doctor refusing to abort the woman who can be helped or has no medical issues, then her claiming she “needs” an abortion for “medical” reasons.
Its like your family doctor diagnosing you with cancer then telling you you’re on your own, go find someone who can help you.
Want a little rundown on carhart’s dumpster?
He has no electricity. For a single late term abortion or 2 he pulls in 10 grand. so money can’t be an issue.
No ice box for meds because the generator doesn’t run at night. No fridge for worker lunches. No lights at nigh to clean the pigsty. No Hot water? I hope people reading the wichita papers google this site.
Mason 2:19PM
Nothing fanatical at all. There would be any number of circumstances to consider with the terminal patient.
One more thing — calling the people who question you “trolls” cheapens the term. I am willing to agree with you and most of the commenters here that there is NO reason for late-term abortion IF there is compelling, nigh-irrefutable evidence. However, the more compelling arguments I’ve seen at this point lead me to conclude that there are morally justified exceptions.
Calling pro-choice commenters names doesn’t help you change the laws.
Mary,
Why can’t those that support late term abortion say what they really mean to say?
Late term abortions are necessary to kill the fully formed human child that a mother does not want. She wants a dead baby or else she would give birth and that would terminate the pregnancy.
Mason,
If you stay and comment using intelligent dialogue and can hold an adult conversation you are not a troll.
There were a couple of comments on this thread that were deleted. I would call them trolls.
Mason,
As was pointed out yes, obstetrical emergencies can occur requiring premature induction or c-section.
Women can have serious medical issues.
That is why we have maternal high risk units and medical specialists. That is why we have OBs specializing in the care of high risk pregnancies.
About the cancer patient, any medically necessary procedure can be safely and legally done in the hospital.
That is why there is no need for Carhart and company.
Carla 2:33PM
You answered your own question :)
One example: assuming that a woman gravely ill from cancer could not have a medical need for an abortion is a rather fanatical conclusion.
Posted by: Mason at June 3, 2009 2:19 PM
in fact, a recent discovery is that women who have cancer can be safely treated with chemotherapy after the first trimester with absolutely no harm to the baby.
Mason 2:30PM
Carla’s 2:33PM post addresses your post as well.
Auguste 12:54PM
I honestly don’t know why you even posted that article. It certainly doesn’t do much for Carhart.
One example: assuming that a woman gravely ill from cancer could not have a medical need for an abortion is a rather fanatical conclusion.
Posted by: Mason at June 3, 2009 2:19 PM
============================================
Do you have factual medical statistics to prove these aboprtion scenarios OR are these just 2nd-hand stories you read somewhere or are all these in your head??
Mary — thank you for replying in a civil manner. I appreciate it.
To clarify the situation: a woman is told she will die within a few months without immediate chemotherapy. The fetus will of course die with the treatment. She is told the recuperation time after Caesarian will leave her too weak for too long for her to survive chemo. The only option which gives her any medically likely chance of survival is an abortion. If this woman was your sister, or your daughter, could you tell her that an abortion at that point would be unforgiveable? A criminal act?
Is the D&E of an already-dead fetus abortion?
That’s a few scenarios. There are others on Andrew Sullivan’s blog (the “It’s So Personal” series). I note here that as a practicing Roman Catholic Sullivan is strongly pro-life, but moderate on what should be considered criminal.
My experience has been that the more one learns about the physical details surrounding abortion the more moderate one becomes. Saying “abortion is always murder”, or “Keep your hands off my body!” is a lot easier when you know less about the biological details.
Getting back to your response, Mary — if you (or others) could be more specific in your response I will take the statement “Late-term abortion is NEVER necessary” more seriously.
Carla at 2:33 says: “Late term abortions are necessary to kill the fully formed human child that a mother does not want. She wants a dead baby or else she would give birth and that would terminate the pregnancy.”
But these many of these women are aborting WANTED babies. In one story I read, a woman learned that her fetus was diagnosed with Brittle Bone disease. She learned that her fetus was in excruciating pain and, once born, would only live a few hours. Rather than prolong its agony (and her own), she chose to abort at 21 weeks. I don’t think she wanted a dead baby, but she was going to get a dead baby no matter what.
“Rather than prolong its agony (and her own), she chose to abort at 21 weeks. I don’t think she wanted a dead baby, but she was going to get a dead baby no matter what.
Posted by: Prochoicer at June 3, 2009 2:52 PM”
============================================
yeah…let kill the baby now..it’s gonna be dead anyway, in a few weeks or months.
PC 2:52PM
I thought fetuses didn’t feel pain???
That’s what your side claims anyway.
“One more thing — calling the people who question you “trolls” cheapens the term”
==========================================
hey, you’re right…’trolls’ just guard small bridges…
Let me think…what DO we call people that are for the killing of innocent, unborn babies in the womb???
Prochoicer,
I hear ya.
The mom decided to have her baby killed before it died.
Hi Mason.
“To clarify the situation: a woman is told she will die within a few months without immediate chemotherapy. The fetus will of course die with the treatment. She is told the recuperation time after Caesarian will leave her too weak for too long for her to survive chemo. The only option which gives her any medically likely chance of survival is an abortion. If this woman was your sister, or your daughter, could you tell her that an abortion at that point would be unforgiveable? A criminal act? Is the D&E of an already-dead fetus abortion?”
I appreciate your civil tone as well :) Let me address your quote above. I have two daughters, aged 1.5 years and the other 3 weeks. I unequivocally state that it would be morally reprehensible for them to obtain an abortion in the circumstances you described above. First of all, the way way in which the feuds dies is important. Yes, the fetus will die either way, but I am not a utilitarian, and hence when I attempt to determine the morality of an action, I look at not only the ends, but also the means (as well as other considerations). That being said, I hold to the principle that one may never do evil (in this case, a direct abortion) so that good (a better likelihood that the mother will survive) may come of it. The fact that a c-section will make the mother weaker for her chemo is not a death sentence to the mother. The chemo may have not worked either way, or in her weaker condition she may still undergo successful radiation treatment. The way I assess the situation is that you (not you Mason, but someone in general) are directly performing an evil act with the hope that it will bring about good, and that is a principle that I simply can not agree with.
Now I will also say that under NO circumstance is abortion EVER unforgivable. Always, always, ALWAYS abortion and anything else is forgivable.
As far as your last question goes, by definition, no, it would not be an abortion because abortion involves killing, and one can not kill something that is already dead. If a D&E was proposed in your above scenario on an already dead fetus, I would be willing to hear some reasons why that should be permitted. It seems to be somewhat of a disrespect for the body of the deceased, but if it is a matter of disrespect of the body of the deceased vs. a higher percentage of saving another’s life, I tend to lean towards wanting to do what can be done to save a life.
I had a friend who was pregnant with a child who had Potter’s Syndrome. The little girl was going to die soon after birth. The mom was pressured to abort. She did not. Grace lived 30 min. She was held and loved and sung to. She died in her Mommy’s arms.
I had another friend who was pregnant with a child who had anencephaly. She was pressured to abort. She did not. She named her baby Grace as well. Grace lived for one hour. She was bathed and dressed and held and loved until she passed away surrounded by friends and family.
I have another friend who has a baby boy right now who has hydrocephaly. He is now home with infant hospice care and surrounded by friends and family that love him dearly. He will pass away peacefully as well.
What a beautiful legacy they have left for their families and friends. To witness such courage and strength in the midst of terrible pain. These babies were all welcomed and given honor and dignity.
A late term abortion would have helped HOW?
Mary at 2:55 p.m., I don’t think that’s an accurate characterization. It depends on the stage of development.
Carla — I actually do appreciate your response. It wasn’t clear to me whether people on this site denied such situations exist or whether you simply think it is wrong to have an abortion in that situation. You may think it is better to force the fetus to live in agony for several additional months and to force the woman to give birth only to see her baby die in agony within a few hours. But I don’t think you can characterize the mother or her doctor as an evil psychopath for choosing abortion, even if you disagree with that decision. (I am not saying you are calling them evil psychopaths but it seems to be the assumption of many posters here that at least the doctors are.)
Someone very close to me just stopped her cancer treatments because she is pregnant. She is refusing to “terminate the pregnancy.” She wants to give this baby EVERY opportunity to live and grow and be and she believes it is a miracle. A high risk pregnancy to be sure, but a miracle.
Prochoicer,
I do not take any of those stories lightly. I cannot imagine being in that circumstance. I do know that many of my friends and family and myself included would not want a child to suffer but to live as long as he/she will live and let nature take its course.
Very heart wrenching to me. All of those women are my friends. I have walked with them through their pregnancies. The highs and the lows. The births, the deaths and the grief.
It is one thing to have a late term abortion because you are depressed and another to have a late term abortion because you don’t want the baby to suffer. The end result though is the same. A dead baby and a wounded mother.
Carla,
I just read your response about the women you know whose babies died shortly after birth I also see your response about the woman close to you who stopped her cancer treatments.
The woman whose story I read chose to abort at 21 weeks because she wanted to end her fetus’s pain and to end her own pain. She concluded that under the circumstances abortion was the kindest option in a situation with no good options. I understand that other women might decide to go through the birth and hold the baby while he or she dies. What I don’t understand is the demonization of people who support the woman’s right to decide what is best for herself and her child in this kind of heartbreaking situation.
I honor the choice of the expecting mother with cancer to sacrifice her own health, or perhaps her life, for that of her fetus. That SHOULD be every woman’s choice. But would you force a woman to forego cancer treatment if she did not want to make the same choice?
There is also a huge difference between a late-term abortion performed by for profit greedy high priced charlatans like Tiller and Carhart and medical induction of labor in an appropriate hospital setting with all care given both patients even though the child is not expected to survive.
We are cross-posting. I agree that the results are the same in late-term abortions — dead baby and wounded mother. At least we agree that these are awful situations.
But I think the alternatives are often equally bad or worse. That is why it has to be up to the mother.
But these many of these women are aborting WANTED babies. In one story I read, a woman learned that her fetus was diagnosed with Brittle Bone disease. She learned that her fetus was in excruciating pain and, once born, would only live a few hours. Rather than prolong its agony (and her own), she chose to abort at 21 weeks. I don’t think she wanted a dead baby, but she was going to get a dead baby no matter what.
Posted by: Prochoicer at June 3, 2009 2:52 PM
Pcer,
I read that article and found it ridiculous. As Mary stated, your side claims these babies don’t feel any pain. If this baby felt pain, then how much pain did it feel when it was ripped apart from it’s mother’s womb? How much pain do all of these babies feel as their skulls and chests are crushed, limbs ripped from their bodies, or being burned by saline solution?
This little one could have been given pallative care to ensure it felt no pain after birth.
Mary,
I am not sure what the WACKER could be. Maybe he attaches the suction hose to this super powered vacuum machine for quicker faster results.
Good humor on not hitting the port o potties as you pull into the lot. This looks like something out of a horror flick.
“What I don’t understand is the demonization of people who support the woman’s right to decide what is best for herself and her child in this kind of heartbreaking situation. ”
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Funny you mentioned the word “demonization”…What, pray tell, would push the mother to kill her own child SPECIALLY in this heartbreaking situation??
It wasn’t clear to me whether people on this site denied such situations exist or whether you simply think it is wrong to have an abortion in that situation. You may think it is better to force the fetus to live in agony for several additional months and to force the woman to give birth only to see her baby die in agony within a few hours.
we don’t deny that these difficult situations exist, we just do not believe that abortion is the answer.
For many of us, we also believe that each person, no matter how short their existence on this earth, has a purpose.
And babies do not have to “die in agony”. Most of these babies die peacefully, in their mothers arms surrounded by love not only from their families but by nursing staff as well.
And we also acknowledge the terrible grief and pain that mothers and fathers must go through in these sort of circumstances. We believe, however that this is a positive grief in a sense, knowing they gave this life a chance and they cared for the baby until death. It gives the parents a chance to meet their baby, say goodbye and acknowledge his/her existence. I don’t think parents who abort in these circumstances can really do this.
How much support does a prochoice dr. actually GIVE a woman with a baby who is growing inside of her that might live a short time after birth?
A few of the women switched to prolife doctors during their pregnancies because of the pressure to have abortions.
I can hardly FORCE a woman to forego cancer treatments or FORCE a woman to stay pregnant.
I mean this sincerely, THANK YOU for having a conversation with me on a subject that has impacted my life in so many ways. I appreciate your candid responses.
What I don’t understand is the demonization of people who support the woman’s right to decide what is best for herself and her child in this kind of heartbreaking situation.
It is never morally correct to end a person’s suffering by killing them – either in the womb or outside. This is murder masked as compassion. Once again it highlights our society’s dread of suffering which is deemed useless.
Oh and we don’t “demonize” them. We state that it is morally wrong. It is their conscience that convicts them. Not us.
PCer,
Also it needs to be understood that dr.s will more often than not pressure women to abort when their babies are diagnosed with fatal anomalies.
In most cases women already feel guilty that somehow they have caused the situation. Then they are put into a position that now they are pressured to kill their baby.
I volunteer with professionals in the pregnancy loss field and with out a doubt, women who carry their babies to term and allow their babies to be loved, held and die on their own terms never regret that decision. Women who feel pressure to abort and then do, will often come back seeking help for depression and guilt over the decision to end their child’s life. Where are these drs. to help them now???? Nowhere.
I also agree with Bobby, even if a baby has died in utero, how horrible it is to dismember it. How disrespetful to that baby. What mother could ever feel comfortable with this??
RSD — a fair question. The details in the cancer scenario are my fabrication, the scenario though is not.
For example, here: http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/feature/2009/06/01/late_term_abortion/index.html
“Abortions were necessary to qualify for chemotherapy.” Doing some quick web searches have thus far not revealed greater details.
I was also edified by the discussion here: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31065403 (transcript), http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#31051686 (video).
Some facts, not independently verified: About 300-600 abortions — or up to four one-hundredths of 1 percent — are performed after 26 weeks, out of the 1.5 million that are performed in the U.S. each year.
It appears that most abortions categorized “late-term” occur around the time of viability (24 weeks or so) or just before.
A quote:
“Eight in 10 Americans surveyed consistently say that abortion should be legal in cases of fetal defect. Severe fetal defects often are not diagnosed until late in pregnancy. Amniocentesis, which can be used to diagnose hundreds of these serious fetal conditions, may not produce results until after 20 weeks of gestation. Consequently, locating a physician who will perform the abortion, making travel arrangements, and securing the necessary funds may be a time-consuming process.”
It appears that late-term abortion to save the life of a mother is very rare, and the vast majority of them are due to fetal defects, often fatal.