Should Roeder be waterboarded?
The Associated Press reported June 7:
The man charged with murdering a high-profile abortion doctor claimed from his jail cell Sunday that similar violence was planned around the nation for as long as the procedure remained legal, a threat that comes days after a federal investigation launched into his possible accomplices.
A Justice Department spokesman said the threat was being taken seriously and additional protection had been ordered for abortion clinics last week….
Scott Roeder called The Associated Press from the Sedgwick County jail, where he’s being held on charges of first-degree murder and aggravated assault in the shooting of Dr. George Tiller one week ago….
“I know there are many other similar events planned around the country as long as abortion remains legal,” Roeder said. He would not elaborate.
It wasn’t clear whether Roeder knew of any impending violence or whether he was seeking publicity. Law enforcement authorities, including the Justice Department, said they didn’t know whether the threat was credible.
Recent polls (CNN here; Gallup here) indicate Americans approve of “harsh interrogation techniques” like waterboarding and sleep deprivation if danger is imminent.
Of course. Even Barack Obama has hypocritically reserved the right as president to waterboard while decrying the Bush Administration for using it.
But here’s where liberals have a clash of “values.” While opposing waterboarding as “torture,” they support torturous late-term abortions (fact: these babies feel the pain of being torn limb from limb or stabbed in the base of the skull before having their brains suctioned out) and those who commit them.
So if Roeder is actually aware of domestic pro-life terror cells (which even Tiller attorney Don Monnat dismissed as “harebrained,” but just sayin’), would pro-abortion groups support or oppose waterboarding or sleep deprivation of Roeder to gain information?
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
What would water boarding solve? RJ
I’m not in favor of waterboarding vigilantes
I’m not necessarily in favour of torture, but I think if that’s the only way that they’re going to find out what else is planned so that they can protect those people that are targetted then I think that’s what they need to do. Better that guy tortured than someone else ending up murdered.
everyone should remember that he is mentally ill and may not know exactly what he is saying. maybe the voices in his head told him that, I say get the guy back on his meds and then talk to him. *rolls eyes*
Probably not, though I have seen many people suggest it in (what I’m pretty sure is) an ironic way.
Would pro-waterboarding conservatives support waterboarding Roeder?
That CNN poll doesn’t say that a majority are in favor of torture, just that they do not support investigations of Bush administration torturers. I know there are anti-torture people who don’t support investigations because they think they would do more harm than good, though I disagree.
No.
It wouldn’t surprise me if many proaborts didn’t support using the Al Quieda method of interrogation on Roeder…. that is, cutting his head off while the camcorder rolls… and putting it on Al Jaziera. So much more humane that waterboarding, isn’t it?
Hi Rosie,
Exactly. He’s probably enjoying all the commotion he’s causing or living in some fantasy world.
Even Tiller attorney calls this “harebrained”.
Fact of life folks, people can say anything. How many times have we heard of “bomb scares” that turned out to be nothing but sick thrills for someone? People who claimed to have info on crimes?
Any federal investigation into the possible accomplices of the “jihadist” who shot the recruiter? Are federal marshalls guarding recruiters?
“This task force was established more than a decade ago to commit resources to the reduction of threats and violence against
health care providers
on a national level.”
————————————————–
How many dentists or orthopedists, chiropractors, osteopaths, oncologists etc. have experienced threats or violence associated with the type of health care they provide?
The FBI and the Department of Homeland Security have a pretty good idea of where the real ‘domestic terrorists’ are and it ain’t the people carrying signs and praying outside the abortuaries.
What they are doing now is ‘show work’ after the fact.
On the upside it may create some government jobs for people laid off from Chrysler, Ford and General Motors.
yor bro ken
Did he say this because he was not on his medication? Or was he hoping that some pro-life people were honestly going to go around shooting people in support of him? I really am curious, seeing as how it is not as though pro-lifers are in close connection with one another and it’s pretty obvious that there are no violent plans to slaughter abortionists or anyone else until it is made illegal.
I personally do believe that he said it because of his illness, and also because he wanted to sound as though he was less alone to alleviate the responsibility. But I really would like to know where he came up with the Fight Club thought…
How is water-boarding a terrorist who is imprisoned for committing a heinous crime any different than a-boarding a baby in the womb of it’s mother who has committed no crime?
None!
I’m not for any kind of boarding, except snowboarding and surfboarding which are much more fun.
no. this man is mentally ill.
He should be treated not tortured.
There are many other interrogation techniques employed by our military and intelligence organizations that are very effective. The way this guy was complaining to the AP about his “treatment” in jail, he’s obviously pretty soft.
I’m sure we have experts in interrogation that would have this guy singing like a canary in just a few hours.
Waterboarding would probably be unnecessary.
Why are taxpayers burdened with a federal investigation into an “anti-abortion terrorist conspiracy” that has no other source than a 51 year old schizophrenic arrested within 12 hours of killing an abortionist in a crowded church? Why are major media outlets giving creedence to this paranoia? Why are all the cases against Tiller being closed, cases in which women were harmed and not “helped” by abortion? If there is a “conspiracy” here, I doubt the “anti-abortion” people are winning in the arena of politics and propoganda.
He reminds me a little of John Brown, who also spent some time in Kansas.
That said, like other posters, I believe this guy is deluded. I’m sure they’ll investigate him thoroughly, confiscate his computer, go through his emails . . . and find that this guy is a loner and that there is no sleeper cell of abortionist terrorists.
But here’s where liberals have a clash of “values.” While opposing waterboarding as “torture,” they support torturous late-term abortions (fact: these babies feel the pain of being torn limb from limb or stabbed in the base of the skull before having their brains suctioned out) and those who commit them.
I totally agree, but even if the unborn baby feels nothing it’s still the taking of an innocent life.
Scott is mentally ill. A schizophrenic could say anything. I’m sure it was a one time incident. I agree with angel. He should be treated. Not tortured.
I agree with many of you here. This man should be treated for his mental illness properly. After he gets proper treatment he may be able to more clearly describe what really happened.
I disagree Heather. I think Scott Roeder is a sane man. I don’t know why people think he is insane. There is no evidence that supports this.
Waterboarding is torture. No one should be waterboarded. It will not produce valid information, evidence that such tactics have produced good information has been disproven.
Abortion is not torture, anymore than one can torture a kidney or other body part. Some people who have abortions view it in retrospect as torture, however this is due more to religious conditioning than to the actual procedure.
Waterboarding is not torture. Waterboarding is a game we played in the pool when we were kids.
YLT, ABORTION IS TORTURE!
YLT, in every abortion a baby is tortured and killed! Sometimes women are tortured by the procedure. Breast cancer, emotional problems, reproductive problems, PAS, PTSD. Nightmares, inability to bond with other children, suicide attempts!
Waterboarding is not torture. Waterboarding is a game we played in the pool when we were kids.
Posted by: Jasper at June 9, 2009 5:57 PM
LOL!
I mean, Scott does look a little crazy. But let’s say killing 1 year olds was legal in the U.S. , we wouldn’t be waiting around for the law to change, we would stop the perpetrator.
So, I could see how a man could flip out after seeing the destruction that Tiller has wrought on his victims. I’m not condoning this in any way, but I can see how it could happen.
now, this doesn’t mean we shouldn’t pray for Tiller and his family, we should.
what do you call having your body pulled out and cut into tiny pieces with a very sharp knife? or having your body pulled half way out of the safest place it is for you to be and then have your head stabbed with scissors and your skull collapsed? I call it TORTURE. If it was puppies or kittens being treated this way, those persons would be in JAIL.
Marian 5:11PM
Two words. Political pandering.
YO,
Abortion was horrifying for me, and torturous for my child.
Had nothing to do with religious conditioning.
Abortion is not torture, anymore than one can torture a kidney or other body part. Posted by: Yo La Tengo at June 9, 2009 5:54 PM——————————————————————— Really? Well, if you began prodding at my kidney with some of those sharp cutting abortion knives, I’d beg to differ! And don’t stick that high powered suction catheter up my nose!
Abortion is not torture, anymore than one can torture a kidney or other body part.
Careful- your scientific ignorance is showing again, YLT.
Abortion is not torture, anymore than one can torture a kidney or other body part. Some people who have abortions view it in retrospect as torture, however this is due more to religious conditioning than to the actual procedure.
Posted by: Yo La Tengo at June 9, 2009 5:54 PM
YLT,
Body parts get tortured all the time. Legs, hands, arms, etc… Fetuses have bodies which feel pain. Whether you believe it or not that a baby has a soul or intrinsic value (“religious conditioning” as you say) doesn’t negate this fact. Subjecting a body to severe pain is torture. Abortion is torture.
finally, it dawned on me… after the whole Tiller murder bogfest… YLT and others like him… will post something intentionally inflammatory …just to watch us get riled up… i am soooooo not falling for that garbage… why do/did we? perhaps if we ignore them they will get bored and find another place to “play”? yaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwn. : )
Right. Don’t feed the trolls.
YLT, you aren’t even being serious. Get with it! We’ve covered ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL of the bases for you.
Jasper, I would really like to know your input on this. I don’t know if you heard about it, but the conservative radio host Mancow Muller agreed to be waterboarded a few weeks ago and unequivocally said afterward that it was torture. If you disagree with that, can you please explain why? I’m not trying to pick a fight at all. I really want to know what you, or any other proponent of waterboarding, thinks of this video clip.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUkj9pjx3H0
Oh…and this man should not be tortured. He needs to be evaluated by a psychiatrist and sentenced in lieu of those results within the law’s requirements.
angele and heather,
I issued a challenge to the “trolls”.
Go to the militia websites and tell them what you think of them spawning the likes of Roeder.
Also, let’s hear who they hold responsible for the death of Pvt.Long, the army recruiter. Was it Muslims, the anti war movement, or black Americans?
After all, deranged killers never act on their own, they are always motivated by “rhetoric”.
All we ever got was a deafening silence.
Erin,
My idea of torture is having your head sliced off with a dull knife as you scream in agony.
Oh, afterward, the headless body was hung upside in public.
These are the kind of people we are dealing with.
Erin,
If Roeder had gunned down his fellow postal workers or a military recruiter, he would have not gotten this much attention and you would have heard little “outrage”.
How seriously would any of his blatherings be taken?
This is purely political.
Well, I have just read that the killer of Pvt.Long, a Muslim convert “jihadist” feels he is fully justified in killing him.
Outrage anyone??
Angele, Ylt in my openion doesn’t really care what we pro-lifers think. You know what I mean? On another note, You told me you vallenteered with habatat for humanities. Do you help build the houses? I remember at the Florida school for the deaf and blind, we had a class called shop. I really injoyed that class! I came back to my own pobulic school system, when I was in the fourth grade. Man… It just seems like only yesterday, I was graduating from high school. I graduated in 1999, and here it is ten years later, and I’m going for my doctorate in theology! I Sencerly hope you are doing well. Your brother in Christ, RJ PS. Angele, and the rest of you, We know the last chapter in the book!
Does any one know where Carl edwards stands on abortion? RJ
Mary, I do not consider the Tiller murder a movement-incriminating act. It was a murder of doctor who provided abortions by a man who was pro-life but likely had no significant ties or indicative approval of his actions from pro-life organizations.
Private Long was killed by a man, who was a Muslim extremist, just as Roeder was. They don’t provide extra protection for the military men because…well, they’re the military. They are their own protection. And also, he’s being charged, in addition to the murder, with 15 counts of terroristic acts.
And cutting someone’s head off with a dull knife is execution, as well as torture. If we want to truly be a greater nation than our enemies, we should have a greater moral presence. Just because waterboarding isn’t complicated or particularly violent does not mean that it is not just as psychologically torturous as those methods that are.
re: angele at June 9, 2009 9:26 PM
I suppose in a world where information is tightly controlled posting ideas that contradict or disagree might rile people up, but thats not the intent more to suggest that there is another way besides demonization, violence and silly “culture wars” that you insist are going on but no one else seems to be involved in.
Think of as smuggling books into an online North Korea.
“If you disagree with that, can you please explain why? I’m not trying to pick a fight at all. I really want to know what you, or any other proponent of waterboarding, thinks of this video clip.”
Erin,
I think waterboarding falls under enhanced interrogation. I believe our special forces are waterboarded as part of their training. Also, there are no lasting, damaging effect’s from being waterboarded (even mancow tried it), why would someone volunteer to be waterboarded if they knew it was really torture. It’s not pleasant though, it is downright unfortable and temporary tramatizing I’ll bet, but it’s suppose to be. I only believe this should be used in the rarist of circumstances.
Only 3 high level Al-Queda figures were WB’ed, one of them was Kaliek shiek mohommoud:
“KSM, as intelligence agencies call him, directed the September 11 attacks, which killed 2,978 people and injured at least 7,356. “I am the head of the al-Qaeda military committee,” he told Al Jazeera in April 2002. “And yes, we did it.” KSM wired money to his nephew, Ramzi Yousef, who masterminded the February 1993 World Trade Center blast that killed six and wounded 1,040. KSM and Yousef planned Operation Bojinka, a foiled 1995 scheme to explode 12 American jetliners above the Pacific. While some doubt his claim, KSM reportedly said, “I decapitated with my blessed right hand the head of the American Jew Daniel Pearl in the City of Karachi, Pakistan.”
U.S. and Pakistani authorities captured KSM on March 1, 2003 in Rawalpindi, Pakistan. KSM stayed mum for months, often answering questions with Koranic chants. Interrogators eventually waterboarded him — for just 90 seconds.
KSM “didn’t resist,” one CIA veteran said in the August 13 issue of The New Yorker. “He sang right away. He cracked real quick.” Another CIA official told ABC News: “KSM lasted the longest under water-boarding, about a minute and a half, but once he broke, it never had to be used again.”
Erin 10:20PM
Roeder was fiercely anti abortion like he was fiercely anti tax and anti law enforcement. He was arrested with enough bomb components to kill a single person. He had been known to harass judges and lawyers. Was this potential bomb possibly for one of these persons? Who knows with a mind like that.
Military people at recruiting stations aren’t running around armed to the teeth, prepared to take on deranged shooters. That’s why Long was killed, another soldier severely injured, and 15 others shot at.
I know Long’s killer is facing charges but where is the outrage? Why aren’t his associations being investigated? Why isn’t the “rhetoric” of the anti war movement held accountable.
I’m only trying to point out the absurdity and double standard, and yes the political posturing.
BTW Erin, high schools have faced far more shootings and deaths? Any federal marshalls?
Posted by: Yo La Tengo at June 9, 2009 5:54 PM
“Abortion is not torture, anymore than one can torture a kidney or other body part.”
“Some people who have abortions view it in retrospect as torture, however this is due more to religious conditioning than to the actual procedure.”
—————————————————–
YLT,
When saline is injected into uterus of the pregnant woman who wants to ‘choice’ her prenatal child, does the ‘HUMAN’ embryo/fetus just lay there placidly, oblivious to the acid attack on her/his epidermis (the largest of all the human organs) or does she/he roil around in painful agony until he/she is unconscious or dead.
Of course YLT would have us believe human response to pain is just the result of ‘relgious conditioning’.
How does the ‘human embryo/fetus’ receive religious conditioning?
YLT,
I do believe you are getting more ignorant and/or more deceieved.
The nearer you get to the point of liberation, the more intense the conflict.
Keep listening for the ‘pop’.
yor bro ken
Ylt, If you think abortion isn’t torcher, ask some one like Angele, who had to literly wach her baby diing in her arms! Obama has decieved you! RJ
Jasper,
Your info is old. KSM was waterboarded 183 times and ABC News added an endnote to the story you quote: “U.S. Government documents released in April 2009 indicate the statement that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was never waterboarded again was incorrect…”
blogs.abcnews.com… how-the-cia-bro
Also, the Department of Justice Office of Legal Counsel, which advised the CIA on the legality of certain interrogation techniques, disclosed that the CIA’s waterboarding technique was very much different from the SERE technique. Here are excerpts from the ’Certain Techniques’ memo of May 10, 2005 at page 41:
“Waterboard. We previously concluded [in August 2002] that the use of the waterboard did not constitute torture under sections 2340-2340A. [citation omitted] We must reexamine the issue, however, because the technique, as it would be used, could involve more applications in longer sessions (and possibly using different methods) than we earlier considered.[51]” A portion of the CIA Inspector General Report of 2004 is quoted in footnote 51 to that last sentence:
“The IG Report noted that in some cases the waterboard was used with far greater frequency than initially indicated, and also that it was used in a different manner. (‘[T]he waterboard technique…was different from the technique described in the DoJ opinion and used in the SERE training. The difference was in the manner in which the detainee’s breathing was obstructed. At the SERE school and in the DoJ opinion, the subject’s airflow is disrupted by the firm application of a damp cloth over the air passages; the interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth in a controlled manner. By contrast, the Agency interrogator…applies large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee’s mouth and nose. One of the psychologists/interrogators acknowledged that the Agency’s use of the technique is different from the used in SERE training because it is ‘for real’ and is more poignant and convincing.’) The Inspector General further reported that ‘OMS [CIA’s Office of Medical Services] contends that the expertise of the SERE psychologists/interrogators on the waterboard was probably misrepresented at the time, as the SERE waterboard experience is so different from the subsequent Agency usage as to make it almost irrelevant.’” [citations omitted]
~~~
That is not the end of the footnote, but enough of it to show that SERE waterboard experience is “almost irrelevant” to understanding the CIA’s technique.
~~~
As long as we’re quoting ABC News, Daniel Pearl’s family are among those who expressed doubt KSM’s confession.
blogs.abcnews.com…exclusive_pearl
“KSM was waterboarded 183 times”
Matthew,
so what? I said 3 terrorists were WB’ed, I didn’t mention the amount.
if you can waterboard somebody 183 times and they still come out alive, how can this really be torture? I know if you abort a baby after one try, they almost always end up dead.
when thousands of lives are at risk, waterboarding should be available to use if needed. It’s the moral think to do. There is no permanant damage done to the subject.
Waterboarding is not torture. Waterboarding is a game we played in the pool when we were kids.
Posted by: Jasper at June 9, 2009 5:57 PM
LOL!
Posted by: heather at June 9, 2009 6:07 PM
You guys should be ashamed of yourselves.
YOu can’t make up your own definition of “torture” anymore than I could make up a definition of “human life.” Torture doesn’t necessarily produce “lasting, damaging effects.”
Definitions of torture on the Web:
* anguish: extreme mental distress
* unbearable physical pain
* agony: intense feelings of suffering; acute mental or physical pain; “an agony of doubt”; “the torments of the damned”
* torment: torment emotionally or mentally
* distortion: the act of distorting something so it seems to mean something it was not intended to mean
* subject to torture; “The sinners will be tormented in Hell, according to the Bible”
* the deliberate, systematic, or wanton infliction of physical or mental suffering by one or more persons in an attempt to force another person to yield information or to make a confession or for any other reason; “it required unnatural torturing to extract a confession”
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Jasper,
Read the last line of your post again:
Another CIA official told ABC News: “KSM lasted the longest under water-boarding, about a minute and a half, but once he broke, it never had to be used again.”
It’s not true. ABC News corrected that part of the story, and so your information is old. And if your justification is that “thousands of lives are at risk,” that is a utilitarian position that could be used to justify torturous as well as non-torturous interrogations.
~~~
Yet another Christian in China claims to have been “tortured.” His government knows for a fact and with no doubts whatsoever that he was planning subversion, so we don’t have to believe him. “Gao detailed his illegal detention in 2007 and severe and sustained torture at the hands of security agents – including violent beatings, repeated electric shocks to his genitals, and having lit cigarettes held close to his eyes over a prolonged period, which left him partially blind for days afterwards.”
His vision loss was temporary, so if the electric shocks to his genitals did not cause him permanent damage, will you insist that he was not tortured?
~~~
Back to the question of the original post:
would pro-abortion groups support or oppose waterboarding or sleep deprivation of Roeder to gain information?
I suspect many of the pro-abortion groups would support waterboarding almost anyone who tries to stand in the way of their agenda. Let’s oppose waterboarding everywhere.
The neo-cons, like former Vice President Cheney, described a scenerio in which we are faced with a situation that someone in custody has knowledge of future terror attacks that could cost American lives, to justify water boarding and other “enhanced interogation techniques.” Since Roeder has indicated that he knows something about future attacks on other medical clinics, why isn’t Cheney suggesting water-boarding this guy? Here is a perfect example of what they have used to justify torture.
Jaybonz,
Have any ties been established between Roeder or any other groups? Is there any way he would have any knowledge of anything? Maybe he’s not talking to authorities because he has nothing to tell them.
BTW, did you hear there was a shooting in the Holocaust Museum in Washington? What groups do you assume are responsible for this?
Mary, yes. I did hear about the shooting on the evening news. I’ve been to that museum. From what I have heard, it was an employee who didn’t believe that the Holocaust ever happened. Sounded like a disgruntled worker to me. He may have been suffering from mental problems for all we know.
Hi all.
This idiot hours ago launched a board like this one
tinglysninbg skoede
but we have trouble getting the firum running.
Is this site founded on Maximus ?