Weekend question 7-18/19-09
I am reading the book, Heaven, by Randy Alcorn. Among other torments in Hell, Alcorn described the possibility of “diminishing personhood.” Abortion proponents, of course, view preborn children as void of personhood. Interesting….
That was in the chapter entitled, “Is Heaven our default destination… or is Hell?” – which I thought would make an interesting weekend question.
There was also this passage, which I found compelling:
Earth is an in-between world touched by both Heaven and Hell. Earth leads directly into Heaven or directly into Hell, affording a choice between the two. The best of life on Earth is a glimpse of Heaven; the worst of life is a glimpse of Hell. For Christians, this present life is the closest they will come to Hell. For unbelievers, it is the closest they will come to Heaven.
And as for those who’d prefer not to dwell on this topic, Alcorn wrote:
Satan has obvious motives for fueling our denial of eternal punishment: He wants unbelievers to reject Christ without fear; he wants Christians to be unmotivated to share Christ; and he wants God to receive less glory for the radical nature of Christ’s redemptive work.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
It is what it is and it is and it always will be both more and less than I imagined it to be and no matter what I imagined it to be will not change one iota of what it is.
1 Cor 8:2-3 If anyone thinks he knows all the answers, he is just showing his ignorance. 3 But the person who truly loves God is the one who is open to God’s knowledge. TLB
yor bro ken
I thank God that you posted this, Jill. I have often said to unbelievers “If you do not repent & trust in the Savior, this life will be the only taste of heaven you will ever know.” People think too lightly of hell. This reminds me of the story of Lazurus & the rich man. (Luke 16:19-31) After the rich man went to eternal damnation & unrelenting torment Jesus made it clear that he had received his ‘rewards’ in full in this life. Wealth, health, friends, family, shelter, clothing, food. Everything that we hold dear comes from the hand of Almighty God. Lazurus was a hungry beggar who lay with sores at the gate of the rich man. In eternity, the rich man was tomrented while Lazurus was comforted in the shining, beautiful presence of Jesus Christ. Let this knowlege fuel our desire to bring the gospel of life & eternity to those who are perishing while there is still time for them to savingly repent.
Patte, I agree the modern church is so averse to accusations of being too “fire and brimstone” that it abdicates giving the sympathetic warnings it should to those driving off a cliff.
kbhav, there is an answer to this question, and it is in the Bible – in several spots.
There is no default, IMHO. It depends on what is in our heart when we die. God will know.
The Bible is very clear that most will end up in Hell. Hell is the default since we require no help at all to get there.
If it weren’t for the intervene work of Jesus Christ, we’d all go to Hell. And we all must take the action of receiving and responding to Christ saving us.
There are no limits to God’s mercy and he can apply the redemptive work to anyone He chooses- like the mentally ill or those with diminished capacity. But those who reject Christ outright, the reality of Heaven and Hell, they also reject such mercy. You’ll also note that those are the people who are also the least merciful to others.
Jacqueline,
I don’t believe Hell is the default – there are perfectly wonderful people who have not been exposed to Jesus Christ and I don’t think God would damn them forever for that. They would spend time in purgatory, of course, but Heaven would be their final resting place, IMHO.
The discussions of heaven and hell remind me of artists renditions of what they believed Jesus looked like when he was walking around Israel announcing the coming of the kindom of God.
Many of them portray HIM as a handsome, long haired blonde, blue eyed, and fair skinned, effeminate, wimp.
This does not fit the description of any carpenter I have ever met. Some of them had long haire, but none were wimps.
I suspect Alcorn’s book is similar to the artists perspective of Jesus or the paleontlogists conception of what a whole living dinosaur looks like based on a single jaw bone.
I have not read Alcorn’s book, and I concede the ‘book of books’ gives us more details about heaven and hell than it does about Jesus’ humanly appearence, but I just want to be where Jesus is cause it has got to be better than what I have experienced in this space and time realm except for those precious few (enough would never be enough) times when HE has chosen to manifest just a little bit of HIS goodness and lovingkindness to me in a sensible tangible way.
I can say with confidence that times of refreshing do come from and with the presence of the LORD.
The ‘book of books’ indicates that there is a heaven and there is a hell.
I prefer heaven.
Not because it is not hell, but because the ‘book of books’ indicates Jesus is there and He has prepared a place for HIS bride in His Father’s house and that is heaven to me.
One reason hell is so ‘hellish’ is that Jesus is not there.
yor bro ken
we can easily shift a few words and get a very ‘different’ conceptualization of what both ‘heaven’ and ‘hell’ mean. Heaven is not a place but God our Father Himself. We ‘go to Heaven not at death, but at baptism — we live ‘IN HIM’ the way, truth and life. Jesus is that room in which we dwell.
I somewhat agree with Janet, re. hell as not being a default. Hell is a place without God …. how can such a place exist? I do not know.
Loneliness is the closest to ‘hell’ on this earth. Living in a caring family is probably closest our experience of heaven. A new life renews our own life, and our continuous struggle with comfort.
“I somewhat agree with Janet, re. hell as not being a default. Hell is a place without God …. how can such a place exist? I do not know.”
Heaven and Hell are polar opposites. Satan revolted against God and his domain became Hell. Does God exist in Hell? I don’t think so. Those in Hell are not conscious of “God”.
I agree with you about loneliness and new life. This is one of the reasons abortion makes no sense.
Without a doubt, Heaven is our default:
A default position seems to be one that is inherent and natural. For example, by default, a child desires his mom and dad upon birth. This is the case, unless, through severe trauma or neglect, the baby acquires attachment problems.
Likewise, we were made in the image of God. By default, we desire to know and love Him. As St. Augustine writes in his Confessions, “we are restless until we rest in Thee.” Heaven is where we are in union with God, and it fulfills all of our humanly desires because we are with the one who authored us.
Since God created all to know and love him, it would be impossible, in my opinion, to claim that Hell is the default position without also claiming that God created that someone with an expressed intention to ultimately reject and deny Him. However, if that were the case, God would not be all loving. And we know he is. — lifeblog.scrtl.com
I was told as a kid that heaven was the presense of God, hell was the absence of God.
No one, could actually know what heaven or hell was like and we should not presume we do know, as no one could know the mind of God.
I still believe that.
Janet,
I do believe Hell exists, but for me it is primarily an intellectual/faith assertion more than an experience. Its like: [“God can be everywhere, except hell. But there are no ‘excepts’ (I think) with God.”] The concept and experience of profound loneliness are quite enough for preventing me from venturing deeper.
When I was 5 yrs old, I was sitting in a Catholic Church on a Sunday morning near the end of the service when the priest said, “Let us pray.” I bowed my head for a moment, lifted it slightly, then rolled my eyes back and forth across the room and said to God, “Wow God! You can hear all of these people praying at the same time and You don’t even get confused? I don’t know what You want me to do with my life but whatever it is, that’s what I want to do.
My parents divorced when I was 8 and in my early teens, I had strayed from that early commitment to serve Christ. One day, I decided I’d had enough of my nagging conscience and I rededicated my life to Jesus. I was attending a couple of different Catholic Churches at the time and was a little disillusioned with the inconsistent quality of the churches. One had a great priest whose Homilies were relevant and very inspirational while other churches I attended were (and I hate to say it) boring, dry and dull. I happened to catch a minister on the radio after school one day and boy could he preach. I didn’t know why but the things he said and the way that he said them always convicted and challenged and strengthened me to be a more dedicated follower of Christ.
Then it happened. Somehow, my attention was directed to Mt 7.13-14 where Jesus said:
“Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”
I said, “Wait just one minute Jesus, are you trying to tell me that most of the people on this planet are going to Hell? Are you serious? No way. What about my Aunt Cathy, or my friend Carol? They’re really nice people, but I don’t think they know you and they don’t go to church.”
That is when I began seeking God earnestly and studying His Word to find the Truth about the narrow way to Heaven and the broad way to Hell and destruction. I’ve spent literally hundreds of hours researching this subject, perhaps thousands. I’ve read dozens of accounts by people who have claimed to have gone to Heaven and / or Hell and have come back. Some were clinically dead, others weren’t. I’ve had several family members and friends who have had supernatural experiences with angels and demons.
Well this post has gotten kind of long so I will summarize my conclusions tomorrow and include a brief bibliography in case anyone is interested in studying it out for themselves.
One thing is certain, we don’t have to wonder. We can know.
Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” Jn 8.31-32
Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.” Jn 7.16-17
But when He was alone, those around Him with the twelve asked Him about the parable. And He said to them, “To you it has been given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God; but to those who are outside, all things come in parables…” Mk 4.10
I don’t entirely agree that those in Hell are not conscious of God. I think those in Hell are VERY conscious of God. I think that is a part of what Hell IS…the ‘knowledge’ that you are where you are now (Hell) because there is a God, and you REJECTED Him when you had a chance to CHOOSE Him, and now it’s too late for you, you’re separated from God for Eternity.Wouldn’t that be HELL, to you? JMO (just my opinion).
The story of Ashley and Stephanie.
Ashley and Stephanie both go to the same abortion mill. They both die iten years apart. Ashley was killed by a drunk driver, and Ashley was attacked by a shark, and the attack was fatal. w Durning the ten years, Stephanie repented and came to faith in Jesus Christk. so who was forgiven?
First of all, God’s word is very clear that we are all destined for hell because we are all sinners.
Romans 3:22-24 (New American Standard Bible)
22even the righteousness of God through faith (in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for (there is no distinction;
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24being justified as a gift by His grace through (the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
We need a savior. We need someone to save us from death. WE HAVE THAT. The gift is Jesus Christ, through his shedding of blood for our sins on the cross at Calvary. Praise be to God for his redemptive gift of eternal life!
(Janet said)
“I don’t believe Hell is the default – there are perfectly wonderful people who have not been exposed to Jesus Christ and I don’t think God would damn them forever for that. They would spend time in purgatory, of course, but Heaven would be their final resting place, IMHO.”
Posted by: Janet at July 18, 2009 1:05 PM
Janet,
You’re believing the lie of Satan himself. This is also a key factor in the “New Age Movement” of the “many paths to heaven” bullcrap.
GOD SAID:
Mark 10:26-28 (New American Standard Bible)
26They were even more astonished and said to Him, “Then who can be saved?”
27Looking at them, Jesus said, “(A)With people it is impossible, but not with God; for all things are possible with God.”
Janet, did you know that MANY Muslims (and others for that matter) are coming to Jesus Christ through visions and dreams? In my studies of the Middle East, it is believed that 16,000 people are coming to Jesus Christ EVERY DAY! Praise God! Many are seeing visions and dreams of Him, and are true believers because of it! You cannot say, without a shadow of doubt, that there are people who have not ever heard of Jesus and die that way. How do you know that they did not have visions and dreams as well? ALL THINGS are possible with God!
GOD SAID: Acts 2:17 (New American Standard Bible)
17′(A)AND IT SHALL BE IN THE LAST DAYS,’ God says,
‘THAT I WILL POUR FORTH OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL MANKIND;
AND YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY,
AND YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS,
AND YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS;
Janet, please be very, very careful what you believe and say. Look to God’s Word FIRST before you come to conclusions that are in direct conflict with God’s Word. God is not a liar. And always remember that All things are possible with God. How many things?????? ALL THINGS!
RJ- neither because Ashley died twice???
Marie-
I understand and agree with you but take issue with one point:
There are those that are NOT CAPABLE of understanding the gospel but are very much eternal human beings. Unborn babies, young children, the mentally compromised, etc. Also, while it’s convenient and comfortable to beleive that all will be presented the gospel, through dreams and angels and such (which I know happens), that doesn’t explain the salvation of so many that lack the capacity to accept Christ. They have original sin like us, or they wouldn’t die. And yet, none of us believe that they are in Hell, but that God saves them.
What I’m saying is that God, the omnicient knower of everyone’s individual heart, who is both perfectly just and perfectly merciful could choose to show mercy on someone who was never evangelized to. Now, that person lost out on a truly abundant life and the ability to share that life and salvation with others. So that Inuit woman, which you must believe is offered the gospel supernaturally, if she never heard of the saving work of Christ but did not live a life in rejection of God- how perfectly just and merciful would damnation be for her? I understand that you have to beleive everyone can hear and accept/reject in order to keep your viewpoint- I just think there is a too large a chance that you could be wrong and that it undermines Christ’s mercy and justice if indeed you are wrong.
Besides, since dreams and angels are sent to do the great commission for us, this beleif that all will somehow get the gospel before they die (in a world full of unnatural death from war, homicide and abortion), what this does is negate our duty to share.
All I’m saying, Marie, is that I once held firm to this beleif that all will be given the gospel before they die and that it’s that cut and dry- but I see that this beleif only exists to make things more simple and straightforward for us. While I beleive that we have our lives to repent and death means our chance is gone and our eternity sealed-I have every reason to beleive that God can honor His word and be merciful to those that humans failed to share with.
Janet, 1:05p: Those who have never heard about Christ are judged by a different standard. Romans 1:20 – “From the creation of he world, God’s invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly observed in what he made. As a result, people have no excuse.”
The answer to the weekend question is Hell is our default destination. The Bible is clear on this in many places, the most obvious, Matthew 7:13-14, Jesus speaking – “Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only few find it.”
Everyone should be kept out, per Romans 3:23 – “All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.”
No matter how good we are, we are not good enough for a holy God. Habakkuk 1:13 – “Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong.”
We can’t make up for the wrong we do. Only 1 sin a day = 23,525 sins over the course of 65 years.
As Alcorn says, “So Heaven is not our default destination. No one goes there automatically. Unless our sin problem is resolved, the only place we will go is our true default destination… Hell.”
The only way to get to heaven for those aware of the God of the Bible is through Jesus.
John 3:16 – “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son that whoever believed in him would not perish but have eternal life.”
Romans 6:23 – “The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”
Jesus lived a sinless life and died as the once-for-all sacrifice for US. That’s how much God loves us and wants us to be with Him.
But He extends an invitation we must accept. We must RSVP, or one day it will be too late.
I pray this weekend question gets through to some who prefer not to think about the one trip we should plan most for – the eternal trip.
God bless you.
Whew! Some pretty intense things to think about. I would have said that hell is the default, since it doesn’t take much to get there.
God bless you, Jill, and all you’re doing!
Jacqueline,
John 1:7-9
“The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, (Speaking of Christ) that all men through him might believe.” How many? All! Not just a few, but He came that ALL might believe. In verse 8, John the Baptist wasn’t that Light.
“He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, (Jesus the Christ, now watch this carefully:) which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.”
The bible says it…I believe it’s true. I don’t know how He does it…My tiny brain cannot comprehend God’s mind! He’s supernatural!
Jill,
You said, “Those who have never heard about Christ are judged by a different standard.”
Can you please provide scripture for that statement? Or is that your (and countless others’) opinion? I’m just wondering. :) BTW, thank you so much for posting this. I pray that people will wake up and see the Light before it’s too late!
Jacqueline (again),
I don’t know about you, but I serve a SUPERNATURAL LIVING GOD!!!! He’s not sitting in Heaven doing absolutely nothing…He is ALIVE! He is constantly working in us…ALL OF US!!!!
Jill’s right, Hell is the default destination.
Many people who are at death’s door catch a glimpse of eternity just before they cross over. Dr. Maurice Rawlings, a cardiologist and author of the book “To Hell and Back: Documented Near Death Experiences” was not a Christian before one of his patients went into cardiac arrest while taking a stress test. As his patient was slipping in and out of consciousness, he kept pleading with Dr. Rawlings to save him from Hell.
Mickey Robinson was a skydiver who barely survived an airplane crash and suffered extensive burns on his body. His testimony can be seen on youtube here: youtube.com/watch?v=M19g4KtVAGQ
These and many other accounts can be found at insightsofGod.com and spiritlessons.com
Marie,
Ro 2.14 describes Gentiles who without God’s Law doing by nature what is contained in the Law and thereby being a Law unto themselves.
I’m not a Theologian but it sounds like this is one scripture that could apply.
Probably the two most graphic accounts of Hell I’ve seen (the CBR of Hell Testimonies) are:
A Divine Revelation of Hell, Mary K Baxter:
youtube.com/watch?v=-9oSHQ3HGq0&feature=related
23 Minutes in Hell, Bill Wiese
youtube.com/watch?v=J84MXn7H0P4
I don’t know about you, but I serve a SUPERNATURAL LIVING GOD!!!! He’s not sitting in Heaven doing absolutely nothing…He is ALIVE! He is constantly working in us…ALL OF US!!!!
That’s wonderful- I do, too. But God’s supernatural ways don’t exist to custom fit what you need to believe to remain comfortable in your doctrine. His ways our higher than our ways- so I have reason to believe that He very well MIGHT NOT do what you claim He does, but handle the issue of the non-evangelized differently.
“The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, (Speaking of Christ) that all men through him might believe.” How many? All! Not just a few, but He came that ALL might believe.
Yes, He came that all men may beleive. Jesus also came that NONE may perish and ALL might have everlasting life, and we know that all aren’t saved. In fact, it’s a narrow road.
This doesn’t have anything to do with your belief that everyone will be given the gospel somehow.
I’m not saying that God does not appear and reveal himself to people, Marie- I know he does. Often. I’m saying that simplifying it to where HE MUST DO THAT or he’s a vicious, unjust sadist who sends people to Hell who didn’t otherwise know of redemption is a very audacious situation to put the God of the universe in.
Could you concede that maybe your interpretation of scripture is not correct and He handles judgement with a little more discretion?
Marie, Ed,
Jill provided a Biblical reference in her reply to me. Romans 1:20:
Jill said: “Janet, 1:05p: Those who have never heard about Christ are judged by a different standard. Romans 1:20 – “From the creation of he world, God’s invisible qualities, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly observed in what he made. As a result, people have no excuse.””
“I pray this weekend question gets through to some who prefer not to think about the one trip we should plan most for – the eternal trip.”
“God bless you.”
Jill,
Thank you for an insightful post! God bless you too.
Jacqueline,
I’m really not trying to argue with you, but your post made me think a bit more. God wrote the Good Book, not I. All I did was EMPHASIZE the parts that you may have missed. It’s not what I want to believe to fit “my doctrine”, but it’s what HE said. It’s not that I think “He must do that”, it’s that He said He does…simply and plainly in the Bible. God does not lie.
Here’s another verse that may help:
Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
John 1:9
9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. (Jacqueline, note the word “cometh”: it’s a future tense verb. i.e., meaning people born even 10 years from now)
Romans 1:18-19
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
Jacqueline, if you look up the word “manifest”, it means to reveal. God has revealed Himself to yes, even the unrighteous…even the Inuit woman. He didn’t say everyone EXCEPT the Inuit woman.
And then, of course, the verse that Jill noted:
Romans 1:20
20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
The Bible says over and over that THROUGH GOD, He IS revealed to all. I can’t explain it, nor will I pretend to know HOW He does it. But God’s Word, inspired by the Holy Spirit says it, so I believe it.
The Bible doesn’t lie, and I’m not interpreting anything. The Bible says is clearly and plainly.
One more time, Titus 2:11
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, (Not just a few, but ALL. Not everyone except the Inuit woman, but ALL.)
I hope that helps.
God bless,
Janet,
I was asking Jill for a biblical reference on her statement that, “Those who have never heard about Christ are judged by a different standard.”
:)
Marie,
I didn’t write the Bible, either, but I can’t condascend to think that my limited, finite interpretation of it is undoubtably the “right one.” In fact, there are over 30,000 protestant denominations for this very reason- because each believe “sola scriptura” (Scripture Alone) but none can agree on what the scripture alone says.
I used to beleive exactly as you do now (because my interpretation of those scriptures just happened to be the same as yours), and then I took a step back and realized that I was imposing myself into mysteries that God expressly forbid me out of, for no other reason than it made me feel more comfortable to have all the answers. I also realized how dangerous and borderline arrogant it is to claim that to speculate on such things with my limited scope of understanding.
I preach the a Gospel as written- salvation is not my domain. Therefore I can’t know the eternal destination of anyone. I can hope for expressed believers and for myself and pray for expressed pagans- but needing to assume that the gospel is given to all through supernatural means so that all my interpretations of scripture “line up” is not of great concern to me.
I don’t need all the answers, nor could I claim my speculations on the answers must be correct. God is good. I trust His judgement and how He purposes things.
Marie,
I am looking for a scriptural argument about culpability, not that it matters since it will be a wishy-washy debate of fallible personal interpretations. People have “personally interpretted” the Bible to justify all sorts of things or to dismiss all sorts of things. I refuse to engage in that.
But you agree in culpability, too, whether you admit it or not. Why else would aborted babies go to Heaven and not to Hell if “ALL have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” Those babies can’t follow the Romans Road. What about hydrasephalics? What about severe Down Syndrome adults? Even if such a person murdered a whole orphanage, you wouldn’t say they’d go to Hell because God deals with them differently. Likewise, you can’t consider the fact that God might deal with other people differently based on their capacity to understand the gospel?
Take someone who attends a Billy Graham Crusade and buys the “once saved, always saved” lie. They truly beleived that they did what God required of them, no works at all, just pray along with Billy and that’s it. And they die. This is a person who tried to please God with the best of what they understood, like Calvinists who beleive that they should “sin boldly” since sinning is the only role they play in their salvation and nothing they do ultimately matters. By your interpretation, all of these folks are damned by their misunderstanding, not their hearts. You beleive them that God would send people to a lake of fire for eternity for not understanding the truth?
It’s like those that say “Lord, Lord” at their judgements and getting, “Depart from me” from God. It’s the nature of the heart, perhaps?
Jacqueline,
I think we can both agree that when in doubt, when we have no idea, or even when we think we’re right, we can pray to God for guidance, wisdom and understanding on this subject.
Thanks for the discussion.
:)
Whenever discussion about those who die without having heard the gospel comes up, I am reminded of Hebrews Chapter 8:10-11, amidst descriptions of God’s New Covenant, He says:
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest. [NIV]
I can trust that the Judge is perfect, and that our mission as believers is to Go! Tell! while praying many workers be sent to the harvest field.
I do not like the question.
Not because of what it asks, but because of how it asks.
The question presumes that there is a ‘default’ destination.
Kind of like:
“Have you stopped beating your wife yet?”
yor bro ken
As a (non-observant) Jew, I can tell you that the idea of Salvation through Jesus and eternal hellfire for those who do not accept him is totally foreign to Judaism and Jewish theology .
God condemns only the truly wicked ; all decent people of whatever faith are accepted by Yahweh. If you believe in Christian dogma that’s certainly your right, and I don’t want to interfere with your religious convictions. But Judaism makes a lot more sense to me. No offense meant .
Two verses after the most famous verse in the Bible we have:
??“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ?And this is the condemnation, ??that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Jn 3:18-19
It’s an unpleasant truth. It’s realization comes with a responsibility to warn those in our sphere of influence.
For those who are interested, the founder of the Salvation Army, General William Booth had a couple of visions regarding this subject. One, “A Vision of the Lost” was featured in Keith Green’s old Last Days Newsletter under the title “Who Cares”. The other one is excellent titled “In Heaven But Not Of Heaven” and may be found here:
In Heaven, But Not Of Heaven
I believe we are living in the Last Days. We have a short window of time to prove to Jesus how much we love Him by being the best witness we can be to those He’s placed in our lives, both in word and in deed.
Two verses after the most famous verse in the Bible we have:
??“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. ?And this is the condemnation, ??that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Jn 3:18-19
It’s an unpleasant truth. It’s realization comes with a responsibility to warn those in our sphere of influence.
For those who are interested, the founder of the Salvation Army, General William Booth had a couple of visions regarding this subject. One, “A Vision of the Lost” was featured in Keith Green’s old Last Days Newsletter under the title “Who Cares”. The other one is excellent titled “In Heaven But Not Of Heaven” and may be found here:
books.google.com/books?id=ALAOAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA6-IA3&lpg=PA6-IA3&dq=Visions+General+Booth+i.+IN+HEAVEN,+BUT+NOT+OF+HEAVEn&source=bl&ots=K4MPhQSz3T&sig=6VaJtmRlWyvJd7_gITwTIF_N2EQ&hl=en&ei=5MJjSon6BYaGtgfT2aiyAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1
I believe we are living in the Last Days. We have a short window of time to prove to Jesus how much we love Him by being the best witness we can be to those He’s placed in our lives, both in word and in deed.
Could a mod dig my last post out of your spam folder and replace the one above? It has a much cleaner link.
Thanks!
Salvation is only through Jesus Christ. Jesus is the savior of the world. No one gets to the Father except through Him.
I would wholly disagree with the notion that Hell is our default destination. In God is our origin and our destiny. God made us for eternal happiness with him. It is our internal disposition and choices that determine how we meet God – whether the fire of his Love will purify us, or burn us.
I think that it is problematic theologically to assume that our default destination is Hell because this may lead one to believe that it is God who predestines us to Hell.
Our default destination is Hell because if it weren’t the intervening work of Christ, we’d all end up there. It’s not about being nice and making good choices.
God doesn’t predestine us to Hell, but wants to save us all. But we have to LET HIM save us (an action), or we end up in Hell. So by default, it’s Hell unless we choose Heaven through Jesus.
1 Timothy 2: “I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.”
And if God has any say in the matter:
Ezekiel 33:11: “As I live,” saith the Lord God, “I desire not the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way, and live. Turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways: and why will you die, O house of Israel?”
Again, I do think it is an error to presuppose the predestination of all is in Hell. Rather to focus on God’s will, intent and origin in us and that we must actively and daily say “Thy will be done” in our thoughts and actions.
I’ve seen how the presupposition of Hell tending towards the heresy of Gnosticism and of thinking that one can positively discern the “elect” from the “reprobate” on this side of life.
13 There were present at that season some who told Him about the Galileans whose blood Pilate had ?1?mingled with their sacrifices. ?2? And Jesus answered and said to them, “Do you suppose that these Galileans were worse sinners than all other Galileans, because they suffered such things? ?3? I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Lk 13:1-3