“Fact” checker Media Matters doesn’t even know what a Partial Birth Abortion is
The ironies are layered and rich. Here was the “Quick Fact” headline in the “Research” section of supposed media watchdog, the liberal Media Matters:
And the equally fact-challenged article…
Glenn Beck falsely claimed that President Obama “suggested that [it] was OK” to “go into those pregnant women and pull the babies out of them and put a spike in the baby’s head,” echoing the oft-repeated right-wing falsehood that Obama did not support protecting babies who survived botched abortions. In fact, while serving in the state Senate, Obama opposed legislation to amend the IL Abortion Law because the amendment threatened abortion rights and was unnecessary since existing law already required doctors to provide medical care for babies who survived abortions.
Here is what MM was brainlessly protesting, pardon the pun, a particularly witty segment from Glenn Beck’s radio show wherein Beck contrasted Obama’s supposed concern about killing innocent civilians in times of war to his support of Partial Birth Abortion…
MM not only confused PBAs with an entirely different late-term abortion procedure, induced labor abortion, it falsely claimed that a law passed after Obama left the IL state senate, the IL Born Alive Infants Protection Act, “threatened abortion rights and was unnecessary.”
For MM’s information, here’s an illustration of the PBA, via National Right to Life:
Yahoo Health describes induced labor abortions although it omits one risk, as identified in a workbook I have from a 2001 symposium for Waukesha Memorial Hospital in WI on induced labor abortions. The worksheet describes one marker of success, if the preborn baby dies, and one complication, “live birth.”
If legislation attempting to safeguard the lives of abortion survivors somehow interfered with the right to abort, and it was “unnecessary” anyway, why did the IL state legislature eventually pass the Born Alive Infants Protection Act?
MM needs to take Abortion 101 and Logic 101, although I’m sure it is interested in neither.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
With all the press on PBA during the election one would think people would understand this topic by now.
For those who are uniformed, Jill has everything you want to know about Obama and Partial Birth Abortion. Click on “Obama” at the right.
I want pro-aborts to answer this question…why do they all act “horrified” that anyone would think Obama would not support measures to protect babies who survive abortion if there is nothing wrong with killing that baby in the first place? I don’t GET IT! Some pro-abort help me out…Hal or Dhalgren or whoever. I am not comprehending why its distasteful to kill a baby that is now out of its mother and struggling for life, but was okay to kill that SAME BABY just MINUTES prior when he/she struggled for life inside their mother. Its the same baby…location doesn’t change who you are. I am an American even if I travel to Sweden. My location doesn’t change who I am. I am a person whether in my mother’s womb or out. My son is a person whether at his grandparents or whether at my house. My son wasn’t half a person when his head was born but the rest of him was still inside my womb. The pro-abort side is a side of absurdity!
To me a baby is a baby is a baby, whether in a uterus, out of a uterus, whether male or female, whether wanted or not, whether conceived in a loving marriage or conceived in a violent rape. An innocent life is an innocent life. period.
Hey did you all know Julie Andrews was conceived because her mother had an extramarital affair? Thank goodness her mother didn’t trot off to the abortion clinic in 1935 to take care of the “problem”. I am listening to Christmas music and enjoying the beauty of Julie Andrew’s angelic voice and thinking how Planned Parenthood would have gladly extinguished her life to somehow “undo” the infidelity.
Good post Sydney M. Even Dr. Suess understood that “A person is a person no matter how small”. Why be “horrified” if there is nothing to be “horrified” about? If it is just a senseless “blob of tissue” and a “product of conception” no need to be “horrified” about PBA or any other abortion procedure no matter how brutal. All the pro-aborts should be happy to describe what BHO voted not once not twice but three times against (Born Alive Infant Protection Act). Follow the money straight to Planned Parenthood, it is their “cash cow” ask Dr. Nathanson and Carol Everett an ex-abortionist and an ex-abortion mill owner if women are “sold” abortions.
“The pro-abort side is a side of absurdity!”
I gather you are struggling to understand us. Good for you. Keep trying.
“The pro-abort side is a side of absurdity!”
“I gather you are struggling to understand us. Good for you. Keep trying.”
Hal,
Hardly. The pro-abort arguments are completely illogical and motives are transparent.
The pro-abort arguments are completely illogical and motives are transparent.
Posted by: Janet at November 30, 2009 8:19 PM
That must bug the heck out of you. Completely illogical arguments and yet abortion remains legal.
Sydney – I think you are misinformed. We pro-aborts support legal abortion, not the murder of viable infants. For 99% of us, that means we support the legal termination of a pregnancy for any reason up until 22 weeks, 6 days (in New York and most other states). I know not a single doctor in New York State who will perform a DNE beyond that time. If some complication arises later, and a fetal demise / miscarriage occurs, then the woman is handled by an Emergency Room, not by a standard family planning OBGYN. As you surely know, there are currently three doctors in the US who openly perform third trimester abortions – a practice that has even our people divided and concerned.
We already don’t like Obama for not being pro-abort / pro-woman enough. Right now, our politician hero is NYC mayor Mike Bloomberg, who is not only pro-abort, but has assured that all residents in city-owned hospitals either observe or learn both a DNC and DNE. (Yes, that’s full taxpayer sponsorship of abortion education! Yay!! And what balls that cranky little man has).
But we have to defend Obama’s vote against the Illinois bill on the grounds that it was unnecessary. I am not aware of a single documented case in which a doctor killed a viable infant outside of a woman’s body – and if it did happen, he or she should have been charged with homicide according to laws already on the books. Therefore is was an unnecessary bill to punish a crime which was already covered by Illinois law.
Media Matters’ summary is correct. And many on my side would go much further, arguing that there is really no such thing as ‘partial birth abortion.’ It is an inflammatory phrase designed to mislead people into thinking that a baby being born is terminated. And until proved otherwise, I have to argue that the story about a spike being driven into a baby’s skull outside the woman’s body is an anti-abort myth.
It is more likely that the bill put before Obama was an attempt to eliminate any possibility of a fetus having a beating heart once removed from the uterus in a DNE procedure. Doctors have a way around this – fetuscide – to cause fetal demise by stopping the heart day or days before the DNE is performed.
My side discusses this amongst ourselves all the time: There is a lack of education among those on the anti-abort side. Most Americans are unaware of the 22 week, 6 day legal limit. Many of you are unaware of how the new generation of doctors are recruited and educated. A few of you are unaware of the most powerful and well-organized organization my side has – NAF.
I would venture to say that some of you simply assume that doctors are the children of satan and see a pre-born being as something to kill right up until the eve of the delivery date. You are free to believe that. But in this hot debate, in which my side has the scientists, scholars, and doctors, it is better to arm yourselves with facts, not myths.
I know this sounds really condescending. But when I read a comment, accusing my side of pretending to be horrified by a hypothetical murder of an infant at the hands of a doctor, I have to respond. We would be horrified. And hopefully an attending or assistant would bring the criminal to justice.
Is a baby at 22 weeks 6 days along in its mothers womb as alive and fully human as a baby 23 weeks along?
Dhalgren,
I’m no expert in law and stuff, so this website my be junk, but I just googled and found this http://law.findlaw.com/state-laws/abortion/new-york/ which seems to indicate that abortion is legal up to 24 weeks in NY or to “necessary to preserve mother’s life” which can most likely be skirted around if need be. Is this not correct?
Life (per Taber’s cyclopedic medical dictionary) 1. state of being alive; quality manifested by metabolism, growth, reproduction, and adaptation to environment; state in which the organs of an animal or plant are capable of performing all or any of their functions. 2. Time between birth or inception and death of an organism. Biologically, the life of a system begins at the moment of conception and ends at death…
Wait, did you get that? “Biologically, the life of a system begins at the moment of conception and ends at death” For those of you who don’t know, conception is 22 weeks and 6 days before 22 weeks and 6 days gestation (regardless of what the law in NY says)
Murder (per dictionary.com)verb: to kill or slaughter inhumanly or barbarously
Kill (dictionary.com): to deprive of life in any manner; cause the death of; slay.
With all due respect, there are plenty of scientists, scholars and doctors on “our” side, too.
“For those of you who don’t know, conception is 22 weeks and 6 days before 22 weeks and 6 days gestation”
Bam!
Bobby,
Sorry, didn’t mean to be condescending
Haha, no D, I liked it :)
The pro-abort arguments are completely illogical and motives are transparent.
Posted by: Janet at November 30, 2009 8:19 PM
“That must bug the heck out of you. Completely illogical arguments and yet abortion remains legal.”
Posted by: Hal at December 1, 2009 8:56 AM
This isn’t about me, Hal. I know I don’t have the power to change the law. What I have on my side is the fact that the pro-life argument is a better one and it’s changing people’s hearts and minds every day.
Dhalgren,
I have so many questions regarding your post. Let me start by asking:
If 99% of you pro-aborts support abortion until 22 weeks 6 days, and your side is divided on third tri-mester abortion, why don’t any of you pro-aborts speak out against the practice of third tri-mester abortion if you are against it?
Too afraid? Are you against abortion at 22 weeks 7 days? How logical is it that this baby does have a right to live but a day earlier it didn’t? Is this not illogical to you?
Why do you think tax payer funds should go to pay for any abortion? This is an elective procedure.
Should taxpayer funding also be used for cosmetic procedures as well?
Why do you think it is right to force residents to learn this practice if it goes against their concience?
If you don’t think partial birth abortion is the killing of a baby during delivery, how do you describe this henious practice and what do you call it? Have you not read the testimony given by an abortionist at the congressional hearings?
I think you need to educate yourself a bit better regarding the Born Alive Infant Protection Act. Would you not consider leaving a live breathing baby to die on a shelf infantcide?
Yes, I am one who believes that those who perform abortions are very misguided. I believe it is and always has been about the almighty dollar. Women and their babies are used for the sake of those willing to commit legalized murder.
Hal,
There was a time that slavery and segregation were legal too, did that make them okay?
My answers from the pro-abort side:
If 99% of you pro-aborts support abortion until 22 weeks 6 days, and your side is divided on third tri-mester abortion, why don’t any of you pro-aborts speak out against the practice of third tri-mester abortion if you are against it?
We understand that some women and their doctors discover major birth defects or pregnancy complications very late in the pregnancy. I assure you, late-term abortions are anything but elective. But we also acknowledge that such major defects could have been discovered earlier in the pregnancy. Often, the woman’s doctor dropped the ball in failing to discover a major fetal defect. We are also hesitant to support late term abortions because they are extremely difficult to do, and can be quite dangerous. With malpractice insurance as high as it is, it is a huge risk most doctors will never agree to take.
You have to realize the medical logic behind abortion. It is a medically or surgically-induced miscarriage. And since most fetuses cannot survive outside the womb at 22 weeks (yes, they are getting better at beating those odds), it was agreed by doctors and politicians that 22 weeks 6 days is an acceptable time limit for a woman to terminate her pregnancy. Most doctors have no desire to set foot beyond that legal limit unless there is an irrefutable good reason.
Why do you think tax payer funds should go to pay for any abortion? This is an elective procedure.
Well, if you think about, you tax dollars help abortions to take place in some remote, indirect way. If a patient or doctor drives to a hospital or takes public transportation in your area, you probably helped pay for the bus, train, or road. Here in New York City, we acknowledge there has been a decline in the number of doctors qualified and trained to do abortions. The biggest reason is the money. Doctors who perform abortions make roughly half what OB’s who deliver babies do. Here in New York City, state medicare funds abortion (the only state program that does so). And also the harassment and occasional violence against doctors has been a deterrent. Not a huge one. But now people who want to perform abortions are the bravest medical students around.
Why do you think it is right to force residents to learn this practice if it goes against their concience?
Mayor Bloomberg agrees with the argument from the medical and pro-abort community that if we are not proactive in training young doctors on a common procedure, it will become an uncommon one due to our own lack of attention. DNE’s are performed in the ER during dangerous miscarriages involving a oman who is bleeding severely. So technically, he is ensuring that ER doctors know not only how to save gunshot victims, but also women suffering a sudden and life-threatening miscarriage.
If you don’t think partial birth abortion is the killing of a baby during delivery, how do you describe this henious practice and what do you call it? Have you not read the testimony given by an abortionist at the congressional hearings?
Because I don’t know of any babies being aborted during delivery. What I do know is that the DNE procedure involves the use of Japanese algae, called laminaria, which dilates the cervix and begins the intentional miscarriage known as a DNE abortion. Usually the laminaria is inserted 24 to 48 hours before the patient arrives in the operating room. DNEs usually require full anesthesia. Sometimes, for various reasons, the fetus is killed before this procedure takes place. We call that fetuscide, and it is done by injecting a drug into the fetus’ heart.
I think you need to educate yourself a bit better regarding the Born Alive Infant Protection Act. Would you not consider leaving a live breathing baby to die on a shelf infantcide?
Again, I argue that the politicians and activists were trying to prevent the possibility of a fetus having a beating heart at the moment it is removed during a DNE procedure. There is no record of the incident you describe taking place. Or even if there was not a hospital or clinic record, there would have been an article about it in a medical journal. An incident of that magnitude would be exposed. Doctors are terrible at covering things up. Simply put, ‘Partial Birth Abortion’ is a myth designed to attract a strong, emotional negative reaction (which the politicians fell over, apparently, despite testimony from doctor after doctor in committees that it does not exist).
Yes, I am one who believes that those who perform abortions are very misguided. I believe it is and always has been about the almighty dollar. Women and their babies are used for the sake of those willing to commit legalized murder.
If only women, feminists, and doctors had even one successful conspiracy. Legal abortion is a 19th century response to a medical practice that women have been attempting to perform on themselves since ancient Egypt (5,000 years ago). And unfortunately it is not a very profitable field. Like a lot of medical fields, revenues are slashed by billing errors and rejections on the private insurance side. Combine with that stagnant wages, and the field is not very attractive. Besides New York, Salt Lake City, Miami, Dallas, Boston. LA, and Minneapolis, I can’t think of any major cities in which there are hospital family planning divisions that are currently in the black, financially speaking.
I can add to that list – Chicago and Washington DC have excellent hospital programs as well. And yeah, Salt Lake. I wonder how many mormons get abortions in the anonymity of a hospital.
Dhalgren…you are mistaken. There is VIDEO of the late Dr. George Tiller, an abortionist, stating he has performed abortions in the NINTH MONTH of pregnancy…thats way past your magical “22 weeks 6 days” argument. I was a biology major in college. Did I miss something? What happens to the fetus at 22 weeks 7 days? Does it suddenly become human? How do you know?
Baby was born alive in Florida and clinic worker threw the infant into a biohazard bag and then threw the bag onto the roof in the blazing Florida sun. Another doctor who worked with Tiller in his clinic in Kansas stabbed a baby in the heart with a needle after he/she was born alive during an abortion attempt. The nurse who witnessed it was horrified and came forward. The abortionist was female, I forget her name. I think Dr. Sepah or something like that. Heck, Jill Stanek rocked an aborted baby in her arms that survived the doctor’s attempt to kill him/her! Are you serious that you aren’t aware of all these reports?
And you still didn’t answer my question how location (in the womb) equals non-person to be ripped apart by forceps, but another location (out of womb) equals human being that even pro-aborts agree should be allowed to live. HUH?
That must bug the heck out of you. Completely illogical arguments and yet abortion remains legal.
Yep, just like it was when slavery was legal. Illogical arguments and still it remained legal for a very long time.
Now let’s get some things straight, based on fact-based evidence.
Myth:
Late term abortions are rarely preformed.
Fact:
4% of abortions are late term, broken down as 3% are preformed at 16-20 weeks and 1% are preformed at 21 weeks or later (source), which translates to 4% of 1.3 million abortions preformed annually or 52,000 late term abortions each year. Because there is no regular reporting system implemented in place and we are relying on the clinics providing the information on a volunteer basis, we cannot get an accurate prediction of how many late term abortions are actually taking place.
Myth:
Late term abortion providers are rare and difficult to find.
Fact:
Going to the Abortion Clinics Online listing of late term abortion providers brings up a listing of 49 abortion providers which advertise for preforming elective abortions up to 20 to 25 weeks LMP with 4 abortion providers advertising abortions greater than 24 weeks for fetal or maternal indications.
Myth:
Late-term abortions are only preformed for severe fetal deformaties and grave threat to the health or life of the pregnant woman, medically necessary reasons.
Fact:
While there are the occasional rare case of maternal indication or poor prenatal diagnosis, overwhelming evidence points to the vast majority of late-term abortions are preformed for purely elective, socio-economic reasons:
According to AGI, abortions for indication of fetal abnormaility only consists of 2% of all late term abortions, the other reasons given include:
Woman did not realize she was pregnant 71%
Difficulty making arrangements for abortion 48%
Afraid to tell parents or partner 33%
Needed time to make decision 24%
Hoped relationship would change 8%
Pressure not to have abortion 8%
Something changed during pregnancy 6%
Didn’t know timing was important 6%
Didn’t know she could get an abortion 5%
Other 11%
(source)
Of the 30 original criminal complaints filed against Tiller, which is available as a PDF here, based on a review of patient records, the compelling medical reasons given in Tiller’s records for these third-trimester abortions were:
Anxiety Disorder Not Otherwise Specified or Adjustment Disorder With Mixed Anxiety and Depressed Mood: 1
Major Depressive Disorder, Single Episode: 9
Fetus “non-viable” but with no record of how non-viability was determined: 2
Acute Stress Disorder: 2
Anxiety Disorder Not Otherwise Specified: 1
No medical basis documented: 14
In the middle of 1998, the state of Kansas instituted a mandatory reporting policy that required Tiller to submit information about the abortions that he performs. The Kansas Department of Health and Environmental Statistics has recently published this information: http://www.kdhe.state.ks.us/hci/absumm.html. This data further reveals the majority of Tiller’s abortion procedures were elective.
The most famous denunciation of the claim was by Ron Fitzsimmons, head of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers. Said Fitzsimmons:
“When you’re a doctor who does these abortions and the leaders of your movement appear before Congress and go on network news and say these procedures are done in only the most tragic of circumstances, how do you think it makes you feel? You know they’re primarily done on healthy women and healthy fetuses, and it makes you feel like a dirty little abortionist with a dirty little secret.”
Source: American Medical News, Abortion rights leader urges end to “half truths”
Myth:
Third-trimester abortions are illegal for any reason other than severe fetal deformity and grave threat to the health or life of the pregnant woman.
Fact:
Supreme Court Ruling, Doe V Bolton, which came shortly after Roe v. Wade, allows abortion at any time during pregnancy for “health” of mother, in which “health” is broadly and loosely defined.
‘…a woman has a constitutional right to abortion from six months to birth, if her doctor “in his best clinical judgment,” in light of the patient’s age, “physical, emotional, psychological [and] familial” circumstances, finds it “necessary for her physical or mental health.”
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=410&invol=179
As for “Partial-Birth Abortion,” more accurately medically referred to as Intact dilation and extraction (IDX), intact dilation and evacuation, dilation and extraction, intrauterine cranial decompression, this procedure does indeed exist and represents 0.17% (2,232 of 1,313,000) of abortions in the United States in the year 2000, according to voluntary responses to an Alan Guttmacher Institute survey (source) And this procedure is recognized by the American Medical Association (source.
There is also controversy about why this procedure is used. Although prominent defenders of the method asserted during 1995 and 1996 that it was used only or mostly in acute medical circumstances, lobbyist Ron Fitzsimmons, executive director of the National Coalition of Abortion Providers (a trade association of abortion providers), told the New York Times (February 26, 1997): “In the vast majority of cases, the procedure is performed on a healthy mother with a healthy fetus that is 20 weeks or more along.” (source: “An abortion rights advocate says he lied about procedure“. The New York Times. 1997-02-26. p. A11. Retrieved 2009-06-08)
Mods, I have a post pending in moderation, if you could please approve it as soon as possible. Thanks!
Also, you are confusing the Dilation and Evacuation (D&E) procedure with the intact dilation and evacuation or dilation and extraction (D&X) procedure.
For the Dilation and Evacuation (D&E) Procedure:
The first step in a D&E is to dilate the cervix. This is often begun about a day before the surgical procedure. Enlarging the opening of the cervix enables surgical instruments such as a curette or forceps to be inserted into the uterus.(source)
The second step is to remove the fetus. Either a local anesthetic or general anesthesia is given to the woman. Forceps are inserted into the uterus through the vagina and used to pull the fetus into pieces, which are removed one at a time. Lastly, vacuum aspiration is used to ensure no fetal tissue remains in the uterus (such tissue can cause serious infections in the woman). The pieces are also examined to ensure that the entire fetus was removed.(source)
Feticide may be performed prior to the surgical procedure. The tissues of the dead fetus will soften, making dismemberment easier. The standard D&E procedure is difficult after 20 weeks gestational age due to the toughness of the fetal tissues.(source)
If the fetus is removed intact, the procedure is referred to as intact dilation and extraction by the American Medical Association,(source) and referred to as “intact dilation and evacuation” by the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG).(source)
For the Intact Dilation and Evacuation or D&X Procedure:
Usually, preliminary procedures are performed over a period of two to three days, to gradually dilate the cervix using laminaria tents (sticks of seaweed which absorb fluid and swell). Sometimes drugs such as pitocin, a synthetic form of oxytocin, are used to induce labor. Once the cervix is sufficiently dilated, the doctor uses an ultrasound and forceps to grasp the fetus’ leg. The fetus is turned to a breech position, if necessary, and the doctor pulls one or both legs out of the birth canal, causing what is referred to by some people as the ‘partial birth’ of the fetus. The doctor subsequently extracts the rest of the fetus, usually without the aid of forceps, leaving only the head still inside the birth canal. An incision is made at the base of the skull, a blunt dissector (such as a Kelly clamp) is inserted into the incision and opened to widen the opening,(source) and then a suction catheter is inserted into the opening. The brain is suctioned out, which causes the skull to collapse and allows the fetus to pass more easily through the birth canal. The placenta is removed and the uterine wall is vacuum aspirated using a cannula.(source and source)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dilation_and_evacuation
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intact_dilation_and_extraction
Rachel.
Excellent posts!!!!
Thank you so much for all of your researched responses. I can’t wait to see if and what Dhalgren has to write.
Thank you, Rachael C.!!
Awesome work!!
Sheesh……who has two to three days to hang around in an “emergency abortion???”
Also,
Was it Martin Haskell that said he could feel the baby grasping his instruments with her hands and kicking her legs before the incision in the back of her skull???
Thank you so much Rachael C. for clearing that up. Prolifers being called liars and accused of spreading misinformation about abortions has been a long-standing tactic used by pro-aborts to try to disrupt this blog.
Also, very good, detailed testimony of the D&E and D&X procedures, as documented from actual legal trials and straight from the abortion provider’s mouth (as witnesses) can be found at the following two pages:
PBA Trials Transcripts: California
http://clinicquotes.com/site/story.php?id=155
PBA Trials Transcripts: Nebraska
http://clinicquotes.com/site/story.php?id=154
Thank you all!
Prolifer L, I think the facts speak for themselves and speak louder than any rhetoric (prolife or prochoice) can.
Rachel C. You rock!
Silence from Dhalgren and Bystander when their rhetoric is challenged by the facts, not a surprise…