(Prolifer)ations 12-24-09
by intern Andy M.
Spotlighting important information gleaned from other pro-life blogs…
The current guidelines state that there must be actual grave suffering on the part of the newborn, In practice, physicians look not only to the actual suffering of the sick newborn, but also to the grave suffering foreseen in the future.
Dr. Mark Mostert of the Disability Matters blog comments, “Now they want to kill newborns because of what they might suffer in the murky future.”
What never ceases to amaze me is all the studies that occur soooooooo long after procedures and drugs are approved. Too much experimentation.
The good news of Christ’s birth was announced first precisely to the lowly, not to the great and powerful. The ministry of the One who was born for us continued to follow that pattern: He consistently sought out those who were on the outskirts of society. We are called to do the same. To welcome the Savior means to welcome the obligations that His mission places on us. This Christmas, let us resolve to intervene for the unborn child.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
“Dr. Mark Mostert of the Disability Matters blog comments, ‘Now they want to kill newborns because of what they might suffer in the murky future.'”
This is the most outrageous perversion of science and medicine imaginable! Didn’t the Dutch suffer under Nazi occupation? Is there no one left in that nation who remembers, or has heard from those who lived in that time and place, how much sweeter life is when we are beset by frailty and the threat of imminent death?
Where are the Dutch any different than the Nazis? In truth, the Nazis were more virtuous, as they were more discriminating in their targeting of people for death. That’s not saying much for the Dutch.
So the handicapped suffer. And the rest of us live Nirvana? Where does this end? If they don’t knock this off and return to Christianity, the muslims will clean up their act for them.
I’ll take Canon Law over Sharia Law any day.
When Jesus was born, King Herod ordered all the infants killed.
Matthew 2:16
Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men.
The birth of Jesus was made a miserable time by Herod.
Jeremiah prophesied the abortion of babies at the time of Jesus in Jeremiah 31
14And I will satiate the soul of the priests with fatness, and my people shall be satisfied with my goodness, saith the LORD.
15Thus saith the LORD; A voice was heard in Ramah, lamentation, and bitter weeping; Rahel weeping for her children refused to be comforted for her children, because they were not.
16Thus saith the LORD; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the LORD; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy.
JEsus brought life and the Devil brings death. Even death to the innocent.
Children are a blessing and gift from the Creator.
Posted by: Gerard Nadal at December 24, 2009 8:26 PM
“I’ll take Canon Law over Sharia Law any day.”
—————————————————–
Gerard,
There is a third, and I believe superior, alternative.
The ‘law’ of the [Holy] Spirit.
Gal 5:16 But I say, walk and live [habitually] in the [Holy] Spirit [responsive to and controlled and guided by the Spirit]; then you will certainly not gratify the cravings and desires of the flesh (of human nature without God).
AMP
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life [which is] in Christ Jesus [the law of our new being] has freed me from the law of sin and of death.
AMP
Gal 5:1 IN [this] freedom Christ has made us free [and completely liberated us];
stand fast then,
and do not be hampered
and held ensnared
and submit again
to a YOKE of S L A V E R Y [to religion]
[which you have once put off]. AMP
Gal 2:21 For if justification (righteousness, acquittal from guilt) comes through [observing the ritual of] the Law, then Christ (the Messiah) died groundlessly and to no purpose and in vain . [His death was then wholly superfluous.] AMP
Acts 15:6-7, 10-11 6 The apostles and the elders were assembled together to look into and consider this matter [requiring gentile christians to keep the ‘law’ of circumcision].
7 And after there had been a lonnnnnnnng debate,
PETER got up and said to them,
Brethren, you know that quite a while ago God made a choice or selection from among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the message of the Gospel [concerning the attainment through Christ of salvation in the kingdom of God] and believe (credit and place their confidence in it).
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting a
YOKE [of S L A V E R Y to the relgious ‘law’]
on the necks of the disciples, such as neither our forefathers nor we [ourselves] were able to endure?
11 [PETER, went on to say] But we believe that we are saved through the grace (the undeserved favor and mercy) of the Lord Jesus, just as they [the uncircumcised, non-Jews][are].
AMP
‘religion’, all ‘religion’ is man’s attempt to please GOD through the making and keeping of laws, rules, priniples, protocols, patterns, forms, styles of behavior.
Jesus set us FREE to walk with our FATHER unencumbered by the ‘religious’ dictates of mortal women/men.
And our FATHER is perfectly capable of teaching, training, disciplining us up in the way we should go because only HE, and the ones to whom HE reveals, knows what HE intended us to be and what HE purposed for our lives before the foundations of the earth were laid.
Gal 5:18 But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law. AMP
Rom 8:14 For ALL who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. AMP
John 1:12-13 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, [Jesus] He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name — [Isa 56:5.]
13 Who owe their birth neither to bloods nor to the will of the flesh [that of physical impulse] nor to the will of man [that of a natural father], but to God. [They (WE) are born of God!] AMP
So which is the better option, the relationship of a son/daughter to his FATHER and FATHER to HIS daughter/son or the YOKE of religion?
The best that ‘religion’ can ever be to children of GOD is an orphanage where a relationship with a father or a mother is neither present nor even possible.
GOD has not left us as orphans or illegitimate.
HE has given us HOLY SPIRIT and HE acknowledes us by name (we are not bastards) and HE is not ashamed to be called our FATHER or our GOD.
Religion may get you started on the journey but it is wholly incapable of getting you to God’s intended destination.
Bon voyage and a joyfilled celebration of Jesus’ conception, birth, death and resurrection.
yor bro ken
aaaand skipping over the exegesis…
“well-documented, increased risks of depression and suicide”
Where? Which credible research institute has “documented” these statistics?
Ho-hum, ALL types of invasive surgical procedures carry risks, including mood disorders. My mother had an episiotomy during my sister’s birth that left her bleeding and infected, plus miserable with a bad case of depression.
Even pregnancy has its attendant hazards. Let’s not lie about the intended purpose of those oh-so-paternalistic anti-abortion laws. We don’t outlaw pregnancy because it can be a risk procedure. Nah, the woman’s well-being has nothing to do with it. Praiisssse the fetus!
We have all been given great gifts. The most wondrous of these is God Himself … as Jesus. Jesus did reveal something strange about God. He is three … Abba[Dad or Daddy} + Jesus + His Holy Spirit. We humans alas are just one and we envy the power and might of the three.
Too many of us, do not realize just how unusual or wonderful it is to be a living human. People like Megan can point to a babe and say ‘the’. She does not see the other fingers pointing rght back at her in a mocking, unseen way. If her offspring is no more than a thing, then she too is also a thing.
Too bad, so sad to never be allowed to know … to become … to be free … to lovee and cherish …
MERRY CHRISTMAS …
Well megan we can skip over the exergesis, but let us not skip over the incovienent truth that as part of informed consent doctors routinely inform pregnant women of the risks associated with pregnancy and child birth.
The evil insurance companies who underwrite their malpractice insurance have a vested interest in ensuring the doctors provide that info.
The doctors are also fully aware that their liability is reduced considerably if the pregnant woman chooses to abort.
There is only one patient who might suffer complication in that scenario.
Don’t try to tell us that requiring women be fully informed of the risks associated with an elective abortion preclude the other information the doctor is already required to provide them.
Perhaps you believe women who are fooldish enough to become pregnant are too stupid to make a rational decision when presented wiht all the facts necesary to make an informed ‘choice’.
yor bro ken
Um, a glaring oversight: there aren’t any studies that prove abortion causes depression/suicidal ideation at rates higher than pregnancy, or any other surgery, for that matter. These claims are unsubstantiated.
Dentists should offer disclaimers to patients getting cavities filled. Many people are afraid of needles–shouldn’t they be warned that the procedure might result in fright, thus potentially aggravating mood disorders?
Also, drop the false consciousness schtick. Women who get abortions aren’t stupid or insane–legions of women across the globe abort their pregnancies every year. Who fabricated this “greedy abortion provider out to dupe ignorant women” trope? As if OB/GYNS delivering babies are in the practice for truly altruistic reasons? Compassion and love–that’s why pregnant women are pumped full of drugs to speed the process along, or given episiotomies, or, if they’re incarcerated, shackled to the hospital bed. Let’s be real: efficiency, not empathy, is the hallmark virtue of our neoliberal healthcare system.
yr bro ken, i’m whole.
Yeah…that’s why you spend so much time trolling a pro-life website. I think you’re a living case study of the psychological problems inherent in the aftermath of abortion.
Megan,
Serious and very respectful question for you to help me understand where we are at in the conversation:
What would constitute clear and convincing data for you?
I ask because I’ve heard all sides in this argument. Suppose a study from a reputable school of public health showed a statistically significant increase in psychiatric sequelae post-abortion. Would you accept the data at face value, or would you write off the data as being reflective of latent religious scruples, perhaps unknown to the subjects, and having no bearing on neurophysiological responses?
Many pro-choice advocates advance just that argument. Unlike many pro-lifers, I don’t dismiss that argument. I believe it merits serious discussion. Indeed, suppose that religious scruples are at the root of post-abortive syndrome. Is this necessarily an underlying pathology giving rise to secondary sequelae?
Is it possible that Christianity, either through divine revelation, or through the distillation of thousands of years of human experience has hit upon innate characteristics evolutionarily wired into our species? Is it entirely out of the realm of possibility that life is not just some freak physical phenomenon bookended by eternal episodes of oblivion for the individual?
Bearing in mind the First Law of Thermodynamics, which states that energy cannot be created or destroyed, are the physicist and the theologian perhaps describing the same entity, namely an eternal, dynamic source of first principles-God?
Is it at least possible that we as a species evolved to the point of being able to intuit, if not discern the presence of this source of first principles? Aristotle did in his Prime Mover hypothesis.
And if this is so, why would this source of first principles not reach out in return and bring us into relationship with itself; the creator and the creation? In so doing, humanity would be elevated in its dignity, no?
And that becomes the source of the wound in abortion, murder, rape, starvation, neglect, etc.
It’s worth contemplating.
Posted by: Megan at December 25, 2009 9:57 PM
“yr bro ken, i’m whole.”
————————————————–
Well, Megan, we agree on one thing.
I am broken.
Find me one example where an abortionist offered his services free of charge to a pregnant female other than the Planned Parenthood annual christmas abortion lottery
For every example you document, I will document 10 physicians who have provided health care to men and women at no charge.
But you deliberately missed the point and went to great lengths to do so.
The discussion was not whether or not physicians should be compensated for their services, but whether patients should be fully informed before they give their consent.
Offering more medically relevant information to a pregnant woman before she consents to an ‘elective’ surgical procedure is NOT a bad thing.
It might give her pause for thought and at the very least she might do a little more independent reasearch, get a second opinion or talk with an objective third party who does not have vested interest in her choosing one way or the other.
The pregnant woman just might thoughtfully consider the data and come to a different conclusion than you, but it will be her ‘choice’, not yours.
You want to with hold information from women.
That sounds kind of patronistic to me.
yor bro ken
Megan,
Perhaps I should not speak for my wife, but I was present for the births of all five of our ‘unplanned’ children and my recollection is that a surgical incision caused less trauma, resulted in less pain and healed more quickly than a ‘tear’ in the same tissue.
There was the physician who ‘encouraged’ my wife to go ahead and let him induce labor seeing as he and she were already at the hospital and it would just be more convienent (for him).
But even though the doc was visably displeased, my wife made the decision and I concurred, that she would wait for the labor to initiate the old fashioned way.
This an imperfect world inhabited by flawed humans (except for you of course) and sometimes, after having considered all the options, you make the best decision you can and rely on the ONE who gives you breath to work out the details.
yor bro ken
1. That last anecdote only bolsters what I’ve been saying: obstetricians are in it for the money, too. It’s a good thing your wife was able to advocate for herself (and I’m not being snarky…I really hate the way pregnancy has become “pathologized”).
2. And ideally, informed consent invokes facts, not some kind of divine intution. Abortion isn’t correlated with higher suicide rates–thus, forewarning women of this possibility in the examining room is not only “medically irrelevant,” but is also an attempt to dissuade them from getting an abortion.
3. Also, let me further clear up the “abortion mill” myth. Abortion providers ARE OB/GYNS, not some kind of paraprofessional–they’re trained to do abortions in med school, and they also provide other health care to women, including DELIVERING BABIES. Nobody had a “vested interest” in which option I chose, since the OB/GYN I was seeing would have profited either way. Also, before my procdure, I spoke with an OB/GYN for over an hour. She was required to ask me about the decision I had made, and she also discussed my other alternatives. She walked me through the procedure, and nothing was sugarcoated. It wasn’t like I was immediately strapped to the operating table upon entering the clinic.
Oh, and being a student (and poor), I was able to pay a much lower fee for the abortion. Plus, they didn’t charge me for my IUD :)
4. Gerard,
I don’t like to take anything at face value, even ostensibly secular epidemiological studies. I actually have a lot of issues with epidemiology as a field (mainly for treating risk factors as discrete, microlevel variables instead of placing risk factors into social contexts). But the point of epi (and science, really), is to create hypotheses about the world that can be TESTED–belief in God is too much of an absolute (I could also say that I become a new person every second…that statement can’t be challenged).
Plus, you’re imposing a liimted, monotheistic viewpoint on a world that entertains myriad belief systems. You’re asking people to explain their emotions and beliefs with noetic theory. Besides using Christian metaphysics to explain biology, you’re alienating your Jews, Hindus, Zoroastrians, etc. etc.
And biological determinism (concerning behavior traits) is very suspect. It’s used to support all sorts of terrible beliefs, like the existence of an inherent male aggressiveness that fosters male predilection to rape. Biological determinism does nothing to advance the cause of healing the world’s wounds.
Megan,
All the abortionists who all so deliver live babies hold their annual convention in a phone booth in Salem, Massachusetts along with gay republicans and pro-life liberals.
yor bro ken
that was really very cute.
Megan,
What would you say to the women, at the following websites, who’s feelings, experiences, and need for support are very real?
http://afterabortion.com/sharing.html
http://passboards.org/
http://silentnomore.org
Would you tell them that “It’s all in their head” or “Most studies find that the majority of women only feel relief after an abortion,” “PASS doesn’t exist,” or maybe something along the lines of “You made the right decision, now get over it, and move on with your life”, or any other cliche or invalidating statement like the one’s you’ve told us here? Or would you really be willing to listen with open ears and an open heart to women who’s experience and feelings are different than your own?
Please do not put words in my mouth.
Regret is a terrible thing, and obviously very real for women who experience it. Counselors are a wonderful resource. And I don’t doubt that many women regret having had abortions. There are also women who regret giving children up for adoption, or realize they don’t like parenting. BUT we don’t fabricate mental disorders to fit these other situations–Post Adoption Syndrome, anyone?
You’re asking me to be openminded towards women who regret their abortions. And I’m asking you to listen to postabortive women who are content with their decisions. I’m asking you not to “invalidate” their experiences by portraying them as delusional sociopaths.
Also, I read some of the testimonials on that first website. They’re certainly moving, but if you notice, many of these women were exeriencing personal crises/emotional difficulties before even getting pregnant. These are mitigating factors. Obviously an unwanted pregnancy can be rough, especially if you don’t have the emotional wherewithall and support to deal with it.
Megan,
You’ve said plenty of things along those lines.
“There are also women who regret giving children up for adoption, or realize they don’t like parenting. BUT we don’t fabricate mental disorders to fit these other situations–Post Adoption Syndrome, anyone?”
Actually it’s more than just “I regret or made a bad decision to have the abortion,” women CAN and DO experience depression and negative emotional reactions to their abortions, which can fall along a spectrum, from minorely intrusive to a deep depression with suicidal ideations. Factors which may influence her emotional outcome includes her prior belief system (inner feelings/beliefs), if she experiences pressure or coercion (subtle or otherwise) to have an abortion, how much partner/familial support she has for this pregnancy and her decision, and whether or not she has a prior mental illness (but it’s not exclusive to only these women), are just a few.
And both giving up a child for adoption and parenting (PPD anyone?) are both recognized as potential causes of mental health issues by the medical community and counseling would be provided, directed at providing support and addressing the underlying emotional-socio-economic factors. However, in the case of where the symptoms are related to an abortion and related issues, women are often dismissed, belittled and shamed by pro-life and pro-choice activists and their feelings and emotions shunned by the medical community. In fact, (found at the FWHC website) reveals the barriors of stigma and political rhetoric women face when seeking post-abortion counseling. There is definately a need for better support and counseling out there for women to address abortion-related issues. please consider the following section of a letter submitted by Celia Ryan, a social worker and specialized grief counselor, in response to the Canadian Medical Association May 13 (2006) article relating abortion to increased risks of psychiatric hospitalization…
I am not a researcher, and the hurting men and women who come to my office for counseling, or to my groups, are not interested in statistics or expectable outcomes. They are interested in having a language, structure and a framework for their abortion experience and an opportunity to use that information in a helfpul and healing way. They are grateful and relieved to finally be able to name and explore an issue that society says does not exist. They are no longer disenfranchised from their appropriate grief.
Women are permitted to grieve pregnancy losses such as miscarriage and stillbirths, why not permit women who’ve experienced abortion and wish to grieve the right to speak/share about it and seek the same support she would be given if it she were to lose and wanted pregnancy?
“You’re asking me to be openminded towards women who regret their abortions. And I’m asking you to listen to postabortive women who are content with their decisions.”
And I always have. In fact, if you go to my old blog, you’ll find an entry I’ve written entitled, “The Voices of Men and Women Who’ve Experienced Abortion” with the following description, There’s a growing group of blogs where women and men write about their personal experience with abortion. The following are their online journals and blogs, often written from the day they found out about the pregnancy to recovery after the abortion. Abortion affects men, women, and families of every background and social status. The most common reaction following an abortion is relief, but also may include any number of emotions including loss, grief, remorse, anger, and sadness. There is no right or wrong way to feel and the range of emotions vary from person to person. The point of this list isn’t to make any political statement, but rather to bring to light the diversity of abortion experiences and to encouarge others to speak out about their experiences. Each persons has their own story to tell and unique experience. In sharing their stories, the empower others to also speak out about their own experience and find peace and closure in their decision. And following this is a list of links to various individuals abortion stories on their blogs and web journals.
“I’m asking you not to “invalidate” their experiences by portraying them as delusional sociopaths.”
And if you’ve ever read any of my blog entries, you’d see that I never have, but you continue to be dissmissive and minimizing of those women who’ve experienced negative emotional reactions after their abortion by implying they are fabricated mental disorders, but they are not and are these women’s very real emotions, feelings, and experience and they deserve the same amount of respect and support as other women.
“Also, I read some of the testimonials on that first website. They’re certainly moving, but if you notice, many of these women were exeriencing personal crises/emotional difficulties before even getting pregnant. These are mitigating factors. Obviously an unwanted pregnancy can be rough, especially if you don’t have the emotional wherewithall and support to deal with it.”
So let us provide adequite, non-judgemental counseling to these women to address the underlying emotional and socio-economic issues, surrounding the pregnancy and abortion, but let’s not just dismiss these women as if saying, “Well, they were mentally ill in the first place.” And I think your last sentence rings true. Only when we create a society where pregnant and parenting women have a better emotional and socio-economic support system, will women have truly meaningful freedom of choice.
*Sighs* Coding error. The first link is supposed to be linked to only the first part of the below sentence
*In fact, Naomi’s Story (found at the FWHC website) reveals the barriors of stigma and political rhetoric women face when seeking post-abortion counseling.
Megs,
Soooooooo…why are you still here?
I mean you exercised your “freedom of choice” and you are grateful for your “reproductive rights” and you certainly seem content with your decision to “terminate your pregnancy.”
And yet…..you come here and blather on and on and on convincing no one but yourself that abortion is good for women.
Your baby died in an abortion clinic. Just like mine.
Megan,
I take it at face value that you are a lover of truth. In that spirit, why don’t you get in touch with Theresa Burke, Ph.D., who is a licensed clinical psychologist and the founder.
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org/aboutus/theresa.htm
Talk with her as an academic exercise and see what she has to say about the matter. If I get a chance one of these days, I’m going to meet with her and get a detailed breakdown of the literature from her.
As a scholar and lover of truth, why would you blind your eyes to her input, to an emerging body of clinical data? Try it.
Peace
Gerard,
Have you read Forbidden Grief?
I have read that book as well as, “Aborted Women: Silent No More” and “Real Choices: Listening to Women, Looking for Alternatives to Abortion” and would recommend reading all 3 with an open mind, whether you consider yourself pro-choice or pro-life.