Planned Parenthood board member portrays Mary in Nativity scene
From the Telegraph Herald out of Dubuque, IA, December 20…
… Mary, Joseph, a llama, and a few donkeys and sheep crowded around a manger outside Dubuque’s St. Peter Lutheran Church for the annual live Nativity scene….
Ann Straley, also known as Mary for the first shift of the Nativity scene, said the event serves as a creative way to spread the Christmas message.
“And it’s great to see the kids,” she said….
Only problem with that sweet scenario is Straley needed to clarify, “And it’s great to see the kids chopped up,” since she is or at least was at the time a Planned Parenthood of Eastern IA board member, as this article indicates as well as this PPEIAutumn 2008 newsletter (click to enlarge)…
No surprise, St. Peter’s is an affiliate of the pro-abort Evangelical Lutheran Church of America.
[HT: Steve Brody, executive director of Dubuque Co. Right to Life; photos via the Telegraph Herald]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Makes ya wonder just what Ms. Straley would have advised young Mary to do in such a situation…
Sick. Maybe if she saw an abortion or two she’d change her mind.
so, you would prefer Planned Parenthood Board Members to stay away from church and church functions?
It just seems a bit hypocritical to publicly support (by one’s board membership) the killing of innocent children while at the same time portraying the mother of Christ. It’s not exactly Christian to support PP.
I think many Christians support Planned Parenthood.
Hal: “I think many Christians support Planned Parenthood.”
Many Christians may support PP, but that does not mean that it is Christian to support PP.
Christians do NOT support Planned Parenthood, because someone who does that is NOT a Christian. By that I mean that one cannot support unlimited killing of human beings one believes are made in the image of God and still be a Christian in the true sense.
One can be either an abortionist or a Christian, but not both.
Real Christians don’t support an organization that does the following:
1) Targets Minorities by putting their “clinics” in poor neighborhoods.
2) Promotes a Promiscuous lifestyle
3) Attacks Christianity on a regular basis (e.g. The “choice on earth” cards)
4) Spreads a message of sex and sex and more sex, but not a message of a strong committed relationship AKA Marriage.
Christians do NOT support Planned Parenthood, because someone who does that is NOT a Christian. By that I mean that one cannot support unlimited killing of human beings one believes are made in the image of God and still be a Christian in the true sense.
One can be either an abortionist or a Christian, but not both.
Posted by: Joe at January 6, 2010 6:51 PM
I’ve got to disagree with you there. Believing that humans are made in the image of God is not the litmus test for Salvation. In fact, being a Christian is dead simple and uncomplicated. “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” That’s it.
That opposition to abortion is the natural, obvious, and correct stance to take when looking at the world from a Biblical framework is not really a question. Of course it is, and I have no arguments with you there. That’s obvious. But being pro-life is not a requisite for being Christian. And we should be very, very careful about saying anything that seems like we are adding to what one needs to do to be saved. It’s not, “Confess, believe…and oppose abortion.” It’s “Confess and believe.”
@Keli Hu: But clearly, being a follower of Christ (confessing and believing, if you prefer) entails certain things. See Matthew 25:31–46, for example. Or John 14:15. I’m pretty sure murder is against the commandments of Christ.
@Courtney: It’s true that once you become a Christian, you ought to act in a way that reflects that. However, while murder is against the commandments of Christ, Christians have committed murder in the past and still been Christians. Clearly that action is wrong, I don’t disagree. And obviously in taking it they were acting outside of the ways that God wants His people to act, but even that doesn’t loose you your salvation.
My objection is not to saying that “A Christian shouldn’t support X, Y, or Z.” It’s to saying that, “You can’t support X, Y, or Z and still be a Christian.” Because Biblically, being a Christian is pretty simple and we really should not add to that. Obviously Christians should not support abortion. But it is possible to be Christian and support it.
Having said that, there are instances where persisting in support of something without repentance or change may indicate that someone isn’t a Christian. To go back to the murder example, a Christian might kill someone once and still be a Christian. Gleeful serial murder, on the other hand, pretty much means they’re lying about it. Unfortunately, the “pro-choicers” have done an excellent job of obsuring this issue, and making it sound like it’s better than it is. Thankfully, that is changing, and hopefully that trend will continue. The more we can expose the truth about abortion, the more people will be unable to be comfortable in the “mushy middle.”
You all fail to consider that many Christians are ignorant. I bet there are many people out there who still believe a fetus is a “clump of cells” and “not a human.”
There are also probably a lot of Christians that are ignorant of God, but mean well.
I want to point out that ELCA supports abortion and has for some time. This is not the case with the LCMS. They have no fellowship with them.
I agree that being prolife isn’t a litmus test for being a Christian. As a young woman (years ago! lol) I believed the junk I heard in school–it wasn’t a “baby” until some certain time. I believed in Jesus, was a committed Christian, but I was ignorant. What I was taught in sex ed in school completely contradicted the Bible, but as a young person, I didn’t know that. Certainly, when my eyes were opened, I repented of ever believing abortion could be ok.
“I’ve got to disagree with you there. Believing that humans are made in the image of God is not the litmus test for Salvation. In fact, being a Christian is dead simple and uncomplicated. “If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.” That’s it.
That opposition to abortion is the natural, obvious, and correct stance to take when looking at the world from a Biblical framework is not really a question. Of course it is, and I have no arguments with you there. That’s obvious. But being pro-life is not a requisite for being Christian. And we should be very, very careful about saying anything that seems like we are adding to what one needs to do to be saved. It’s not, “Confess, believe…and oppose abortion.” It’s “Confess and believe.”
Posted by: Keli Hu at January 6, 2010 7:27 PM
@Keli Hu: But clearly, being a follower of Christ (confessing and believing, if you prefer) entails certain things. See Matthew 25:31–46, for example. Or John 14:15. I’m pretty sure murder is against the commandments of Christ.
Posted by: Courtney at January 6, 2010 7:37 PM”
Courtney, you couldn’t be more wrong and on shakier ground.
Just read Paul’s account of Peter’s hypocrisy and you will see how what we do and believe can affect our salvation.
In fact, Paul calls Peter (the Rock) condemned and this simply for eating with Jewish believers who made circumcision a pre-requisite for salvation. In fact, Paul later calls these people dogs.
The quote in Romans you use as an apologetic is quite right if properly applied, however, you fail to understand its implied meaning, i.e., “confessing with your mouth the Lord Jesus”. Jesus said, “out of the mouth, the heart speaks”. Therefore our words better line up with what we believe and think and that better be in line with God’s revealed will as found in the Bible.
This is not simply an uttering of the words but involves what’s in our hearts. Jesus said, “why call me Lord, Lord?” Then He goes on to say that those who do the will of the Father belong to Him not those that simply say a prayer of salvation.
In fact Acts 2:38 requires that we “repent and be baptized” as a requirement for our salvation. Many seeker friendly churches conveniently eliminate the repent part and even some the baptize part and both should be a part of every believer’s life. In fact, we never stop repenting as we learn more and more about God.
The point is, if we really, really believe, we will repent and we will submit ourselves to adult baptism and that by the biblical example.
God knows what’s in our hearts and he knows who really believes as to those who just give lip service to Him. If we truly believe in Christ as Lord and Savior there is no way we could be anything other than pro-life assuming we’ve been given that light (and what Christian hasn’t). Being a pro-abort and thinking you’re a believer is evidence of a heart either not converted or a heart ignorant of God’s word and neither are excuses. Could you imagine a supposed Christian confessing that he did not believe murder, adultery, theft or lying were sins? I would imagine that a person like this wouldn’t care if he or others cheated on their spouses. It’s inconsistent to think that this person would be right with God and hence, unsaved. So how is being pro-choice, i.e, being for and not against the murder of innocent children any different?
Further, being a pro-abort can be likened to the “practice” of sin, for which Hebrews 10 says there is no more a sacrifice for such sins since we trample on the blood of Christ by refusing to repent from them and keep on practicing them.
This is not to say that if someone is pro-choice at conversion and doesn’t know that this is a terrible, terrible sin wouldn’t be saved. What I am saying is once that person seeks God and matures and learns that abortion is a heinous evil and then decides to still embrace it, God will then give that person up despite repeated attempts at conviction by the Holy Spirit.
I suggest you get your theology straight (and not from some Liberal pro-abort pastor) and begin the path towards repentance of this heretical view of Christianity.
It will be sad at Judgment Day when Christ utters these words “I never knew you”, to many who thought they were Christians but in fact never knew Him.
Joe, you are right on the money.
Courtney:
The above message should have been directed at Kei-Hu and not you.
Sorry.
It seems that the some groups in the Lutheran Church have lost their way and this from a church whose founder protested vehemently at the RCC selling indulgences! What’s worse, this or murdering innocent children? I think Tiller was a Lutheran also. My God, which book are these people reading? It’s certainly not the Bible. I also know that there are many Lutherans who would have nothing to do with the likes of Tiller and Straley.
Ms. Straley: You should start reading your Bible if you even have one. The Book of Hebrews is a good place for you to start, especially the 10th chapter. Please note the part where it talks about falling into the hands of the living God who is a consuming fire. And Paul was talking to so-called believers.
Sadly, most Evangelical and Lutheran churches have gone NIV, and 501c3. The earlier post that stated ELCA does not fellowship with LCMS is, for the most part, correct.
Yes, Tiller killed babies Monday through Saturday, and was gunned down in the Lutheran church he attended on a Sunday.
Is it any wonder that any church, like the Lutheran church being discussed here, doesn’t teach the truth about loving your neighbor as yourself? Follow the money…
Keli,
Yes we are all within the compass of Jesus saving grace. No it is Biblically very simple to be a Christian.
The Church of Jesus Christ is under attack from the Devil. And the Devil’s sacrament is abortion. Abortion is the destruction of the the gift of life, that comes from the Holy Spirit. This is the same gift of life that brought forth the conception of Jesus. These lives we are speaking of killing are some of those same lives that Jesus came to save. Abortion is no less than joining forces with the anti-christ. I do not willingly join in communion with anybody that supports abortion.
Woe I say. Woe, woe, woe to those who spread this kind of blasphemy among the faithful. Woe upon those who openly “confess” Jesus as Saviour and support abortion. They know not the meaning of the words Jesus spoke. The Holy Spirit that sanctified the womb of Mary cries out in grief every time one of those children is sucked from her mother’s womb.
A Planned Parenthood board member playing a Mother who is famously known for having said YES to life. Hypocritical to say the least.
Let us join together in prayer as a Cristian community that God continue to grace us with the truth and ever keep us and guide us to life in communion with his Holy Spirit.
St. Michael the archangel,defend us in the battle.
Be our safeguard against the wickedness and snares of evil. May God rebuke him, we humbly pray; and do thou, oh prince of the heavenly host,
by the power of God cast into hell Satan and all the other evil spirits who would roam through this world seeking the destruction of souls. Amen
Our Father who art in heaven,
hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done;
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses;
as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one. Amen
above should have read:
Yes we are all within the compass of Jesus saving grace. No it is NOT Biblically very simple to be a Christian.
I am not a christian nor do I have strong veiws on abortion. All I can do is tell u my story and maybe be a voice for other women in dire circumstances.
I have been in a commited relationship for the past 4 years and am engaged to be married in august. My fiance and I live together and for the most part we r sexually active with one another. Just recently, we found out we were preganat. Although at the time we were not trying, we were thrilled to receive the news! However, at the time I conceved, I was going thtough raditaion and chemo treatments for cancer. We were devisated when my doctor told me that if we went through with the pregnancy there was a chance that I might not live and that the baby would be seriously deformed and have serious mental retardation problems. It was at that moment that my fiance and I knew the best thing for us and our baby was to have an abortion.
With that said, you need to realize that the decision to have an abortion is never easy. Actually, it was the hardest and most painful decision of my life. But you know what I realized in that pain? I was being the best mother I could be by saving my child from a lifetime of problems.
I know that there are women in this world who see abortions as a form of birth control and I think that is wrong. But the majority of women out there are making the heart breaking decision to have an abortion.
I think these women should be commended. Now keep in mind I’m not talking about the women who get abortions 6 times a year (trust there out there) but who r we to judge the women who r making the tough decision? Would u judge me? Would u judge the women who is raped? Would u judge the women who is having a child from insest? Or the woman on welfare with a child already struggling to make ends meet?
You are all so quick to point the finger but think about it. These women are saving these children from a lifetime of pain, like I saved my child.
Wow, I really went on a rant!
Melissa, How far along were you? Did you actually see evidence of irregular fetal developement or just take a “doctor” at their word? And tell you were the negative effects to your health if you carried the baby say to twenty weeks?
And the time for the welfare mother to make her “choice” is when she decides to open her legs. Financial hardship is NOT reason enough to kill your children.
should have said:
And what did they tell you were the negative effects to your health if you carried the baby say to twenty weeks?
Posted by: melissa at January 7, 2010 3:35 AM
It is so sad that this belief is perpetuated. Many women have gone through chemo and radiation while pregnant and had perfectly healthy babies. I am sorry that you decided to abort rather than put your baby in Gods hands. He surely would have protected him or her.
I am so sorry for what you have been through,
Melissa.
My sister in law delivered my beautiful niece Harper last week after stopping her cancer treatments so her daughter could live. I am so thankful she basically told her doctors where to go when they suggested “terminating her pregnancy.” She is now back on treatments and at home loving up her baby girl.
I will be praying for you.
Melissa,
You could have chosen not to parent this child and allow someone else to parent this child. Instead you chose death over life and deluded yourself into believing you did the right thing by the child. Saving a child from a lifetime of pain by killing her…think about what you are saying.
I understand how frightening it is to fight cancer and do not mean to be harsh with you but it is important for you to face the truth. Imagine if the doctor said in order to spare you the pain of radiation and chemo, we will kill you.
What has happened is that we are choosing whose life is more important. No one has to teach us to be selfish it comes naturally to us. For the doctor it is easier and less complicated for him to treat one patient and dispose of the other.
I am not suggesting that you end your life to save the life of your child although some women would make that decision.
As others have said, you could have sought an opinion of carrying the child to 20 weeks while receiving treatment. It is not an easy decision but don’t delude yourself into thinking you did what was best for your child.
I pray for you to have successful treatment of this cancer and a full recovery. I am not trying to be harsh with you as I once thought just like you but the evidence changed my mind.
@truthseeker:
The Church of Jesus Christ is under attack from the Devil. And the Devil’s sacrament is abortion. Abortion is the destruction of the the gift of life, that comes from the Holy Spirit. This is the same gift of life that brought forth the conception of Jesus. These lives we are speaking of killing are some of those same lives that Jesus came to save. Abortion is no less than joining forces with the anti-christ. I do not willingly join in communion with anybody that supports abortion.
Posted by: truthseeker at January 7, 2010 12:57 AM
You seem to be confusing me with a pro-abort. I don’t support abortion. At all. Even in the “hard cases.” I understand that you may disagree with some of the things I’ve posted but I would appreciate it if you do not put words in my mouth.
Abortion is an ugly stain on the human character and it is one of the very worst violations of human rights to occur throughout all of recorded history. At no other time have human beings been so rampantly and wantonly destroyed with so little recourse to check their deaths by those who see this evil for what it is. But don’t confuse it with Satan’s only tool. It is desperately important for us to confront abortion, to oppose it, and to do our level best to see it ended (which is, I believe, a fight we are going to win in the US, at least). But it is not the only way the Devil attacks people. It’s not his only lie, or his only “sacrament” (if you can say he has those). At the moment, it’s what he’s getting the most mileage out of. There have been other evils in the past and there will be in the future.
@Phil:
God knows what’s in our hearts and he knows who really believes as to those who just give lip service to Him. If we truly believe in Christ as Lord and Savior there is no way we could be anything other than pro-life assuming we’ve been given that light (and what Christian hasn’t). Being a pro-abort and thinking you’re a believer is evidence of a heart either not converted or a heart ignorant of God’s word and neither are excuses. Could you imagine a supposed Christian confessing that he did not believe murder, adultery, theft or lying were sins? I would imagine that a person like this wouldn’t care if he or others cheated on their spouses. It’s inconsistent to think that this person would be right with God and hence, unsaved. So how is being pro-choice, i.e, being for and not against the murder of innocent children any different?
…
This is not to say that if someone is pro-choice at conversion and doesn’t know that this is a terrible, terrible sin wouldn’t be saved. What I am saying is once that person seeks God and matures and learns that abortion is a heinous evil and then decides to still embrace it, God will then give that person up despite repeated attempts at conviction by the Holy Spirit.
I suggest you get your theology straight (and not from some Liberal pro-abort pastor) and begin the path towards repentance of this heretical view of Christianity.
Posted by: Phil Schembri is Hisman at January 6, 2010 11:02 PM
I mentioned this to truthseeker, but apparently it bears repeating: I am not pro-choice. I never have been in my entire life. And neither is my pastor, thank you very much. Again, you may disagree with some of what I’ve said, but I would really appreciate it if you did not put words in my mouth.
Now, as to your point about Christians confessing that they didn’t believe murder, theft, or lying were sins, I don’t disagree that there would clearly be a problem there. Nor do I disagree that abortion is less evil than any of those sins. But Christians–who were genuinely Christians–have committed all of those sins in the past and have not lost their salvation. That there is something wrong with a Christian supporting abortion I do not argue with. I take issue with saying that, “To be a Christian, you must believe that Jesus died for your sins and was raised from the dead…and oppose abortion, and not be a liberal, and do all this other stuff, too.”
God knows our hearts, as you said. He knows we’re not really all that bright when it comes to doing the things we ought to do in order to be saved, so He made it very, very simple. Because if it weren’t, nobody would ever get it right. It is through God’s mercy that salvation is so simple, and any time that we–His church–run around adding to it, we are undermining that.
You went on to essentially make the point that I made earlier, sort of. As you said, not everyone comes to God with an understanding of just how horrible abortion really is. And that is something that, I am convinced, the Holy Spirit does work on with believers. I don’t believe it is possible to loose your salvation under any circumstances, however. “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” John 10: 27, 28. No one can snatch you out of God’s hands; not even you. You and I and all believers have been saved by God, and none of us are powerful enough to undo anything that He’s done. Once you’re saved, you’re saved for good.
Again, having said that, failure to listen to the Holy Spirit is a sign that perhaps the conversion was not genuine to begin with. “For no good tree bears bad fruit, nor again does a bad tree bear good fruit, for each tree is known by its own fruit. For figs are not gathered from thornbushes, nor are grapes picked from a bramble bush.” Luke 6: 43, 44. And James 2 has a long explanation of how faith is the instrument for salvation, but works are the visible sign that salvation has occured, and without those works, the faith is useless. Once someone is saved, the Spirit works on them to change those things in their life that need changing. But the order and method in which God does that is up to Him. He may not choose to convict someone of the evil of abortion in the way that you or I or anyone else thinks he should. If someone is growing in other areas, but not in this one, then perhaps the reason is that God sees those areas as more important than we do. I may be jumping up and down for when God will convict a friend about the evils of abortion, but God may have other plans for them. If I can see that they are saved by watching them grow, even if it’s not in ways I would have expected, then I don’t get to stand up and say, “But if you’re not pro-life by date such-and-such, you’re not really a Christian!” That is not my call.
Ultimately, we’re trying to pick apart two things that are very closely bound up (faith versus works). But I am always very skeptical of anything–and I mean anything at all–that purports to be an “Elector Detector.” God knows our hearts and He is the only one who can say with complete confidence whether someone is saved or not.
Here’s what, for me, this comes down to. When I witness to someone, I’m not going to tell them how great it is to be a Christian and pro-life. I’ll try to get them saved first and start working on getting them pro-life the next day. And if you can do them in different actions, then clearly, they’re different. The one might be a logical outgrowth of the other, but it is not the same thing. We aren’t saved into the pro-life movement, we’re saved into God’s family. What He does with us after is His business.
The moment we are saved we do not become perfect. We are not suddenly these perfect human beings that never sin. When we are saved and the Holy Spirit dwells within us He begins to work on us, a renovation into His image. He convicts us of sin and begins to change our thoughts and our heart which follows through in our actions and the words we speak.
However, a Christian who truly has trusted Jesus alone for salvation can begin to resist this transformation to Christ-likeness and this would be referred to as “back-slidden”. You’ve slid back into your old fleshly ways.
I agree with all the points you’ve made. You CAN be a born again Christian and still support abortion either because you haven’t gotten to that point in your Christian walk to be convicted of it yet (It took Norma McCorvey who was Roe in Roe V. Wade months to come to the conclusion that abortion was wrong after she was saved) or because you have stopped fellowshipping with God and backslid. I also agree that out of the heart the mouth speaketh and that by someone’s fruits you will know if they are a believer or not.
I also know my oldest brother is a born again Christian who asked Christ to save him as a kid but as a young man did a horrible thing that hurt people and ended up in prison. He didn’t lose his salvation because of what he supported or what he did. In the same way saying you have to say and do the right things to truly be saved (referring to Hisman) is like saying there are “works” that go along with your salvation. The Bible is clear that nothing WE can do will save us. “For by grace are ye saved through faith, it is the gift of God not of works lest any man should boast.” I don’t have my Bible in front of me so I hope I quoted that correctly.
Doctors are not omnipotent. How exactly would a doctor know that a child would be born deformed and suffer all of her life and that the best “cure” he has is killing? That is the best he can offer? Doctors are human and because of that..they can be WRONG.
How timely!!
Here is a story of a mother who fought bravely through her cancer to bring her daughter into the world.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2010/jan/10010614.html
Couldn’t they have found someone younger to play the part of Mary? Isn’t there a pro-life teen or young adult woman in that whole church?
This is not ageism or juenism just a serious question as to why this woman would agree to put herself in this so obviously mismatched part.
A few great discussions in this comment section. Melissa- it is very sad to bring this up, but honestly, there are many stories out there where physicians have urged pregnant women to abort for various reasons, and the pregnant woman has decided, “AMA,” against medical advise, to continue with the pregnancy. This can lead to two outcomes: you discover the doc was generally wrong – there are plenty of examples of this, as people have already posted; or you disover the doc was generally correct. In this case, the baby will die before beong born, as happens for various reasons, or the baby will be born, and will have a normal life span with medical problems or deformities- possibly severe, or the child will have a brief life, possibly with misery, including serious misery – but possibly not. There are many cases out there of parents deciding to NOT follow the doc’s advise, and the mother and father get to know their child for a brief window of time. Three minutes. Three months. Three years. From the websites I have seen, these parents view these brief spans of time as the most wonderful cherished times of their lives. You have already discovered this, from reading other people’s posts. This info may cause great pain and regret, following your choice.
Many women have done Bible studies focused on living with the regret of an abortion. Many CareNet pregnancy centers provide these. These are a cross between support group, counseling, bible study, and spiritual counseling focused on trying to understand how God can continue to love you, and how you can love yourself, despite a great past mistake – forgiveness.
These are definitely Christian-based: they open Bibles, they pray, and they read/study the Bible. They accept God as a leader, rather than accepting Hollywood, politicians, or a high school health ed teacher. However, I am pretty sure that most all of these opportunities would excitedly welcome you, with open arms and compassion, into one of these groups. I know you have been told how terrible Christians are, but that is generally not the case, but is political propaganda. Yes, they will refer to the Bible, as I mentioned, and no, they will not parrot empty quasi-spiritual ideas like “we each get to choose our own spiritual path,” etc. They will, or at least should, practice compassion and forgiveness, and if they don’t it is their personal short-coming.
I’m just sayin’ in case you want the opportunity in the future to get some help with the psychological and spiritual impact of your choice.
Fighting cancer is a full-time job, and people fighting cancer need all the help they can get on these other life challenges. Don’t be afraid to ask for help.
Virgin Mary?
Planned Parenthood has nothing to offer virgins. Actually when 2 virgins get married, they can’t use their personal experience to even share std’s. You can abort a baby but not a disease.
Mellisa, I wish you well with your recovery from the cancer. You have come to one of the few places on Earth that would criticize or even question your choice to terminate your pregnancy. Thanks for sharing your story. Don’t let the comments of a handful of very committed pro lifers shake your conviction that you did nothing wrong. You did nothing wrong.
You know Hal, I don’t think most people here are attacking her for her abortion, but more explaining what is a possible scenario. Personally, I am okay that she had an abortion, because even if the doctor was incorrect, I do not believe that a mother must take significant risk to save her child.
Now, killing the child because it would be deformed…well that is awful. Try the same logic on the child post-birth.
“Well, he was very deformed, so I drowned him in the bathtub to save him from a life of misery!”
Also, in response to the implicit argument made by Melissa….
Abortion should obviously be allowed in some rare cases (although rape and incest do not count.) That does not, however, mean that we cannot limit the cases of abortion that should not be allowed. There really is no need for an “all or nothing” approach. Think of it this way. Should it be legal to kill your children? Probably not, right? However, can you kill your child if you child attempts to murder you first? Most people would say yes, I imagine. So, considering that there are definite cases where killing your child is okay, should we not judge any child killings? No way. We just have to use wisdom.
@Keli Hu: I’ll grant you that Christians have committed grave sins. But if a person was to knowingly commit a grave sin and refuse to repent, I don’t see how he could still call himself a Christian. Same goes for supporting the ongoing massacre cause in large part by PP. (Granted, ignorance changes things, but I’m talking about when person knows what he’s doing is wrong.)
@Oliver: I’ve met or come across several women in situations similar to Melissa’s. In my experience, the problem is not that the pregnancy actually threatens the mother’s health. It’s that the doctors don’t want a lawsuit if the baby ends up being harmed by the chemo or radiation. There’s nothing unethical about treating the mother’s cancer, even thought that may harm the baby. That’s the principle of double effect. It is entirely unethical to directly and purposefully kill the unborn baby out of concern for deformities (as you pointed out).
Okay first anf formost let’s get thos out of the way! I don’t nor will I ever believe in jesus. Sorry. I respect anyone who does but I do not! Please do not start trying to convience me and preaching to me or I will start rolling my eyes.
Now that that’s out of the way, for everone who responed “doctors are wrong” type of comment, different cancers and different types of raditaion can affect the fetus diffwrent ways. At the time I was receiving high doses of radiatio, chemo and hormones. I was sicker than a dog, could not even keep water down, I had to take pills to help me create salavia. Needless to say I was in bad shape.
Second, I had just lost a friend to cancer previously who had a 1 year old baby and now he gets to live with out a mom.
You all may not think I did the right thing but I know in my heart I did!
Keli and Sydney:
Are we then to throw out the entire Book of Hebrews, especially Chapter 10?
“Hebrew 10:26-31
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”
It’s pretty clear to me that Paul is talking about someone who is saved (notice the “if WE”, i.e., himself and those beleivers he is writing to, the Hebrew Christians, the saved Hebrew Christians) and then decides to continue sinning. Paul says a person like this is condemned. I am not talking about a person who sins, even gravely, and then repents, etc., like your brother, Sydney (assuming he repented). I’m talking about someone who has been saved, and then consistently refuses to turn away from a known sin, the unrepentant homosexual lifestyle would be a good example of this.
If we are once saved, always saved, why did so many of Paul’s letters give so much warning to saved Christians in the epistles to stay in the race, keep on running, don’t give up, etc., etc., etc., unless there were a danger of losing the race? It doesn’t make sense.
And then there is the parable of the ten virgins. All the virgins are all ready to marry the groom and five are disqualified because they didn’t prepare oil for their lamps for when the groom (Jesus) would return, i.e., they did not practice their faith. Are you trying to tell me that these virgins did not believe they were going to be married?
“Matthew 25:1-30
The Parable of the Ten Virgins
1″At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6″At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’
7″Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’
9″ ‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’
10″But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11″Later the others also came. ‘Sir! Sir!’ they said. ‘Open the door for us!’
12″But he replied, ‘I tell you the truth, I don’t know you.’
13″Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.”
And Keli, the very scripture you use proves my point: “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.” John 10: 27, 28. ”
Note the words, “and they follow me”, i.e., they do what God commands. This is how your version of this verse should read, “My sheep hear my voice. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.”
So I am going to reiterate my point:
1) We can receive salvation through faith in Christ by confession and repentance.
2) We are then required to live out that confession (what’s in our hearts) by following Christ so that when we hear his voice via prayer, scripture study, other Christian, etc. We engage ourselves in the battle against sin by active involvement in our faith (we prepare our lamps for the bridegroom returns). I am not talking about rule keeping. I am talking about a person whose life demonstrates just what happened in his heart. A person can make that change, be saved, and then decide later to fall away. God has not broken his covenant with us, we have broken our covenant with God.
3) Believing that one can totally ignore the life of faith after “confessing Christ and believing in his resurrection”, and still be saved flies in the face of all of the rest of scripture.
It is very, very dangerous to teach that a person can be a lifelong pro-abort without repentance and saved at the same time and I would hate to have to answer to God for that view.
…..”Lord, I cared about women so I was pro-choice”
…..”But my Spirit consistently told you that abortion was total rebellion towards me and He commanded you to repent from this sin. I used scripture, I used other Christians, I used your conscience and you choose to willfully trample on my offer of grace and forgiveness by not turning away from this view. I’ve got to say, I never knew you.”
“Matthew 7:
15″Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21″Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'”
Have you not ever read this Bible passage before?
Remember, God is not mocked. Granted, God decides our fates and knows our hearts. Therefore, in light of all of scripture, I believe that it is very dangerous to teach anyone that claims to be a believer that they can continue in their walk and believe that abortion is acceptable to God.
Melissa: “Second, I had just lost a friend to cancer previously who had a 1 year old baby and now he gets to live with out a mom.”
Would it be moral to kill that 1 year old to save him from a life without his mother? If not, then why is it okay to do the same to a fetus?
My wife was in the same situation.
She chose to keep the baby.
Both are fine.
“Abortion is against all that requires faith for success”.
Hal,
This is the only place on Earth that believes that abortion is wrong? Wow. I had no idea. Melissa is a big girl. She came here to have her say. Now we get ours. That’s the way it works on a prolife blog is it not? So not how it works on prochoice blogs but I digress.
Will you be there for Melissa if she does ever realize exactly what she has done to her unborn child? If she suffers from PAS? Your reassurance is for both of you I guess.
Hal:
You saying something is not wrong doesn’t make it so. Your arrogance will someday cause you to wet and stain your pants.
Job 40
1 The LORD said to Job:
2 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
3 Then Job answered the LORD :
4 “I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”
6 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:
7 “Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8 “Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God’s,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at every proud man and bring him low,
12 look at every proud man and humble him,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
15 “Look at the behemoth,
which I made along with you
and which feeds on grass like an ox.
16 What strength he has in his loins,
what power in the muscles of his belly!
17 His tail sways like a cedar;
the sinews of his thighs are close-knit.
18 His bones are tubes of bronze,
his limbs like rods of iron.
19 He ranks first among the works of God,
yet his Maker can approach him with his sword.
20 The hills bring him their produce,
and all the wild animals play nearby.
21 Under the lotus plants he lies,
hidden among the reeds in the marsh.
22 The lotuses conceal him in their shadow;
the poplars by the stream surround him.
23 When the river rages, he is not alarmed;
he is secure, though the Jordan should surge against his mouth.
24 Can anyone capture him by the eyes,
or trap him and pierce his nose?
Posted by: melissa at January 7, 2010 11:08 AM
Melissa,
Your post at 1/7 11:08am did not address any of my questions from 1/7 at 4:11a.m , so I’ll ask again. How far along were you when you aborted? Did you actually see evidence of irregular fetal developement or just take a “doctor” at their word? What kind of cancer did you have? And what did your doctor tell you were the negative effects to your health if you carried the baby say to twenty weeks?
I know a woman who had cervical cancer, and she chose to postpone her therapy until after the baby was born and she actually had less evidence the cancer after the birth of her baby. Is it possible that the metabolism changes caused by pregnancy could actually increase a womans ability to fight disease?
Melissa,
I’m sorry for the hard decision you must of faced and I wish you well in your healing from cancer. I only wish you would of known that you could of gotten a second opinion from another doctor and there are doctors out there who are willing to care for and find a way to treat both mother and baby and I wish you would of known of these wonderful support resources before you made the decision, but now you know of these resources and can pass them on to help others who may be facing the same decision:
Be Not Afraid
Be Not Afraid is an online outreach to parents who have received a poor or difficult prenatal diagnosis. The family stories, articles, and links within BeNotAfraid.net are presented as a resource for those who may have been asked to choose between terminating a pregnancy or continuing on despite the diagnosis. The BeNotAfraid.net families faced the same decision and chose not to terminate. By sharing their experiences, they hope to offer encouragement to those who may be afraid to continue on.
Pregnant with Cancer
Information, resources, support, and hope
Study Finds Abortion Not Needed When Pregnant Women Face Cancer Treatment
Dr. Beth Beadle, who works at the prestigious medical center and is the lead author of the study, told AP that both mother and baby can be cared for during treatment.
Ruth O’Regan, an associate professor at Emory University’s Winship Cancer Institute in Atlanta, also told AP that cancer doctors can treat both mother and child without the need for an abortion.
Mods, I have a post pending approval, thanks!
Keli said: @truthseeker
“I understand that you may disagree with some of the things I’ve posted but I would appreciate it if you do not put words in my mouth”.
Keli Hu,
It was not my intention to put those words in your mouth, just to speak about how my own differ from yours with respect to Christianity and Christian communion.
Melissa: “Second, I had just lost a friend to cancer previously who had a 1 year old baby and now he gets to live with out a mom.”
Did you notice the word LIVE in there? It is very sad that this child will grow up without a mother, but he is ALIVE, and his life has incredible potential. No one else should get to make the decision for him that he would be better off dead. I grew up without a mother, and I am a happy, successful woman. I was born with two different birth defects, and I am living a joyous, fulfilled life.
Looking at the situation I was conceived in, many well-meaning people would have advised an abortion, believing that they were being compassionate. But THEY did not have the right to decide whether or not I should live. Even before birth I was a growing, developing, LIVING human person, and no one had the right to take that away from me just because of possible theoretical difficulties I might face.
I am very sorry about the terrible situation that led you to choose abortion. I can’t imagine how difficult that must have been. But I must confess that I wish you had given your child the same opportunity to live that I’ve had, despite my difficult beginnings.
Mods, I have a post pending approval, thanks!
And there’s no need to hound Melissa with questions regarding her decision, what’s done is done, but rather we can empower her with knowledge and resources regarding maternal and poor prenatal diagnosis so that if she finds herself in this situation again or knows of someone else who does, she and others will be able to make a completely informed decision and they will be able to seek quality care that treats both mother and child.
Hisman…I absolutely agree with you about Hebrews…if someone will NOT give up sin then obviously they are not in fellowship with God (maybe never were, who knows?)
I am just saying a person can still be saved and at one point pro-choice simply because they have not been convicted of that yet. I am speaking of new Christians. I am not referring to someone like George Tiller who went to church and thought “What a nice Christian I am.” and then went to work the next day and pulled arms and legs off unborn boys and girls. He was absolutely deceived and I guarantee heard “Depart from me I never knew you” from the Creator.
And now that I’ve said that I’m sure I will receive tons of flak about how I can’t know and how I’m being judgmental but I still believe it to be true. Sad, but true.
“Hal:
You saying something is not wrong doesn’t make it so. Your arrogance will someday cause you to wet and stain your pants.”
Phil, you saying something is wrong doesn’t make it so. And quoting the Bible doesn’t make it more so. But you know that.
Agreed Rachel,
I hope youn didn’t se my questions as “hounding” Melissa. In her “rant” she asked if we would judge her, and the answers to those questions are required in order for me to answer her question about passing judgement. Otherwise I would be “guessing”.
I am wondering about the post abortive moms posting here lately…….there have been 3-4 in the last month. They are all fine with their abortions of course. Hmmmmm.
Carla, one of the reasons I asked for the details…it blows the cover on the scripted trolls.
Melissa,
I am sorry for your difficult situation however just to clarify a few things.
first there are 1.4 Million (surgical) abortions in america…every year…do you really think these all the product rape and deformity? (Not that I support that.) What if the deformity couldn’t be diagnosed until after birth? Would you be okay with “aborting” the child then? How about if they put the child under sedation and thin layer of skin?
second, just because a decision can be rationalized or feels right doesn’t make it just. How many people do you think wake up in the morning and say “I can’t wait to do evil today?” Humanities ability to rationalize their decisions is legendary. Even the germans didn’t start out with hate. They were merely trying to “save the motherland” and “avenge the traitors of WW I”. The gas chambers came later.
Judging: if someone says abortion is wrong, this is not the same as judging your soul. In fact, saying abortion (or any sin) is wrong is a GRACE. For it creates the necessary condition to stop doing evil and do GOOD. Jesus said that the He must leave so that the Holy Spirit might come and convince us in the matter of sin. This “convincing” in sin is a grace.
You can’t lose your salvation “And I give unto them eternal life and they shall never perish neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” which is John 10:28. Any man would include yourself. Jesus said no man shall pluck His own out of His hand.
Running the race and pressing on to the mark is so that we may someday hear “Well done thous good and faithful servant.”
The thief on the cross believed and was taken to heaven at his death but he never had a chance to get off the cross and go do good works. He still made it to heaven because his sins were forgiven but he had no crowns to lay at the Saviour’s feet. The good works we do earn us crowns which we will then cast at the feet of our Lord as gifts to Him. All we do which is good and kind and right is not for ourselves but to please our Lord who loved us when we were still sinners and died to save us even when we mocked Him and scorned Him and rejected Him.
A Christian involved in sin and unrepentant is a terribly sad thing because they are causing others to stumble and go to hell by their poor testimony. Many who profess to be Christians aren’t really…they never really put their trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. They think going to church and calling themselves a Catholic, or a Lutheran or a Baptist will save them but it does not. Baptism does not save you. Communion does not save you. These are all good things but it is faith in Jesus alone that saves you. Narrow is the path that leads to salvation and few there be that will travel it. Wide is the road to hell and damnation and many there be that travel it. So many people think donning the title “christian” is a pass to live how they want with no eternal repercussions…but we can be assured that no matter how badly we mess up, if we place our trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation we are SAVED no matter what!
Ann Straley,was contemplating ,How Jesus escape
Herod”s infanticide! Tsk,Tsk..
Oh! How cute.Better not show this on ultrasound!
Truthseeker and Carla I think you are on to something. The trolls who come online here ALWAYS are involved in the “hard-cases” and want to tell how “unavoidable” or “unregretful” or what a wonderful experience they had or how “grateful” they are for having their abortions. I think you know what is going on here. It is a pro-abort game to disrupt this blog and get you involved in endless, circular arguments. You can choose to ignore or carry on the argument it is your decision. I think the tip-off to me was the horrible spelling, trying to play the “poor women need abortion game”, with a worse case scenario. God bless.
Well here is the story of a “hard case” and now the mother is an emotional wreck. Yup, abortion just solved all her problems didn’t it?
By the way, its graphic so you’ve been warned.
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=40024
Thanks Truthseeker and Prolifer L,
I always have my doubts cause you just never know…
You are right. It is always the “hard cases” and there were a couple too many for my liking.
Thank you for being here!! :)
*peeks in*
I wasn’t a hard case.
Still no regrets.
Hi Carla ^_^
Erin!!! Hi.
HI Erin!!
Thanks for peeking in!! I would appreciate you do that every year for the rest of your life(especially 7-9 years out)and type the same three words. Still no regrets. Cause it is totally convincing, dontcha know??!! :P
Here’s my two words for ya.
Still regret.
We were talking about the post abortive trolls btw. :)
For those arguing whether christians can be pro-choice…I will add that abortion is an especially heinous act because it is a sin against the incarnation. To be ambivalent about abortion and “christian”, you have to believe that God didn’t really become flesh or that his becoming flesh doesn’t mean that every person has a special diginity.
In reality, christians who are pro-choice are either ignorant or gnostics.
However, at the time I conceved, I was going thtough raditaion and chemo treatments for cancer.
Posted by: melissa at January 7, 2010 3:35 AM
At the time I was receiving high doses of radiatio, chemo and hormones. I was sicker than a dog, could not even keep water down, I had to take pills to help me create salavia. Needless to say I was in bad shape.
Posted by: melissa at January 7, 2010 11:08 AM
Hmmm. Curious, Melissa…during this difficult and obviously horrible time, how on earth were you even thinking about having sex, and if you really did, why didn’t you or your fiance use something to prevent a pregnancy, like a condom?
Planned Parenthood baby-murder racketeers doing infiltration work? That’s as new as the serpent infesting the Garden of Eden, or from Matthew 7:
A Tree and Its Fruit
15″Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21″Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ 23Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
The Wise and Foolish Builders
24″Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”
28When Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were amazed at his teaching, 29because he taught as one who had authority, and not as their teachers of the law.
Jesus also taught to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves.