New York Times: Abortion advocates discover adoption
We’ve always said “pro-choice” is code for “pro-abortion,” because the other side only pushes that 1 of the 3 choices of mothers in crisis pregnancies.
On June 18 the New York Times reported on a major concession made by the other side, the “emergence of a generation of women’s advocates who want to remedy” the pro-abort adoption gap….
It remains to be seen whether this actually comes to pass or is just a PR move by desperate ideologues not only losing in the polls now but also losing their previously presumed position as spokespersons for women.
Pro-aborts promoting adoption would be one “common ground” measure I’d support. The difference between them and us being, of course, our side offers financial and legal assistance toward that end, while their side will only supply a piece of paper with the name of a pro-abortion adoption agency.
But if the bottom line is more babies saved, that would be good.
Promoting adoption also forces pro-aborts to mentally go places they have always refused to go. It is to agree with a pro-life platform plank, to delve into our territory, It is to concede abortion isn’t necessarily the best option for mothers in crisis pregnancies. It is to promote life over death. It is to concede the “pregnancy” is a life in the 1st place. It is to accept that some mothers are willing to sacrifice their interests and to accept responsibility for the the life they have created, which is to admit abortion is self-serving and irresponsible.
The NYT piece was quite interesting. A few highlights:
What if groups that demanded reproductive choices for women actually offered them?…
The idea is simple. It is about choice. Not choice as a euphemism for the right to have an abortion, but choice in the true sense of the word: options, informed consent and support for women trying to figure out what to do with an unwanted pregnancy….
(In other words, pro-aborts do not provide totally informed consent nor provide holistic support?)
The thinking is that all the clinics’ clients, whether they seem uneasy about abortion or not, should have a clear understanding of how adoption works, rather than just be handed a list of references – a list that essentially says, adoption is fine, but it’s not our thing.
To many who have labored for abortion rights, it might seem at first blush that abortion clinics need adoption specialists the way fish need bicycles – that it represents an infiltration of the opposition….
Corinna Lohser… worked at an abortion clinic in Cleveland years ago… [and now] works for Spence-Chapin Adoption Services, a NY adoption agency that supports abortion rights, and has come to regret the lack of information she had been able to provide women in Cleveland….
As Ms. [Christina] Page put it: “It’s like you’ve come to thisg>Italian restaurant – do you really want the waiter saying, ‘There’s this great German place down the block, not sure how much you know about it, but you might like it’?” …
After Ms. Palin’s recent “mama grizzlies” speech, pundits focused more on whether she could call herself a feminist than on addressing her critiques of the abortion-rights message. Feminist groups, she said, want to tell women: “You’re not capable of doing both. You can’t give your child life and still pursue career and education.”
If Ms. Palin feels confident lobbing that point it’s because the right has kept old-line feminists so busy protecting abortion rights that they have less energy to focus on issues like adoption or, for that matter, quality child care for women who want to parent. The Adoption Access Network suggests recognition of one weak spot….
Note that it’s our fault pro-aborts haven’t focused on adoption heretofore.
the right has kept old-line feminists so busy protecting abortion rights that they have less energy to focus on issues like adoption
What, there aren’t enough feminists to do it all? You mean they can’t multitask? ;)
I can’t imagine PP and ilk promoting adoption unless they can make it as profitable as abortion. Even then, I can’t see it happening. Discussion of adoption would put their clients in a position of viewing their unborn as babies, not clumps of cells. That puts them too much in league with prolifers and isn’t good spin for promoting their abortion “services.” It also means they’d have to beef up compliance with reporting laws related to minors. Can’t see PP doing anything with adoption except trotting it out as occasional PR.
I think planned parenthood would be overjoyed if they never performed another abortion. (assuming no one wanted one)
Hal, if PP never performed another abortion, they would go belly up.
Abby Johnson (former PP DIRECTOR who is now a pro-life advocate) confirmed that PP’s budget for abortion services doubled last year while their budget for “family planning” decreased. And you are telling me that PP doesn’t WANT to perform abortions? PP is in the business of abortion. Anyone who thinks otherwise just hasn’t done their research.
Hal…did you see that Planned Parenthood brought in 3 billion bucks last year? Do you think that was from handing out condoms? Abortion is their bread and butter.
Therefore, the first task to make the mothers think of the babies as parts of them walking around outside of them and then make them realize that there are options aside from whacking these parts in the head and killing them…adoption!?? This will also bring into perspective the exhorbitant price of adoption to prospective parents—ya know…supply and demand?
Please hear me out:
As I understand it, you see abortion as murdering a child and an act of a desperate woman who is manipulated by the profit driven folks at Planned Parenthood, yes? And many woman make the decision to end their pregnancies without trully informed consent and will suffer life long pain and regret..right? And that’s just morally wrong…
then a statement like this:
“should have a clear understanding of how adoption works, rather than just be handed a list of references” just doesn’t really makes sense.
See, you are wanting aborting clinics and such to really tell woman what adoption is like and make it a viable alternative, but most of society and the same clinics doen’t really have a clue at all.
You must understand that Adoption is the often unneccessary separation of a mother and child and an act of a desperate woman who is manipulated by the profit driven folks at the adoption agencys. And many woman make the decision to end their motherhood without trully informed consent and will suffer life long pain and regret.
And that’s just morally wrong…
I am not pushing abortion by any means, but I cannot say that adoption is a better alternative.
One kills a baby ..the other kills the mother…both human.. only can support of parenting even under less than planned circumstances can keep them both whole..
I know several women who are grateful they chose life instead of abortion and adoption instead of abortion. They are overjoyed that their children are adopted into loving families!!
Adoption doesn’t kill anyone. Is it hard? Yes!!
Claudia: Here’s something for you to think about. With adoption there is a lot less pain for the mother, because at least she knows her child is out there alive somewhere. With abortion, she knows she is the mother of a dead child. With adoption, there is hope of reunification some day when the child is grown up, and often parents and children separated by adoption do meet up years later when the child is grown. With abortion, there is nothing but death, no reunification–at least not this side of eternity.
Adoption and abortion both involve loss and separation for the mother. The only difference is one gives life, and the other gives death. It would take a pretty cold mother to prefer the latter over the former when it’s put in those terms.
CHOOSE LIFE! ! ! ! !
Abortion=Selfish
Adoption=Selfless
Abortion=I’ll have you dismembered so I don’t have to be hurt by the inconvenience of you.
Adoption=I am willing to go through an emotional burden of separating from you, in order that you may live, and live a better life than what I may be able to provide.
It’s called sacrifice. A word that has no meaning to this selfish narcissistic culture. Both women may feel emotions of guilt. But one woman’s guilt will not be driven harder by the fact that she had her own child ripped form her womb because that is what was “best.” She will instead know that she allowed her child to live who now also affects so many lives in ways one could never imagine.
Have you looked at the comments on the NYT article? Mannnn…. these pro-choicers are most definitely anti-adoption!! It’s mind-boggling!
“I am not pushing abortion by any means, but I cannot say that adoption is a better alternative.”
Claudia,
Go interview 1000 adopted people and let me know how many of them think abortion is a better alternative than adoption. Wow.
You all may think adoption is better than abortion, but having first hand knowledge of both choices, I can say without any qualms adoption is much harder. Frankly I don’t think any of you except for Claudia have any idea what you are talking about. Start reading and educate yourself before you make such sweeping statements about how much better adoption is. Helping women parent is the only truly humane thing to do. Adoption does indeed destroy mothers, it traumatizes babies and in creating one family destroys another. Abortion is to adoption as apples are to oranges. You can not compare the two!
1 – There are quite a few adoptees who wish they had been aborted. I know several.
2 – Perhaps you aren’t familiar with the Guttmacher Institute report “Concern for Current and Future Children” where some women have abortions BECAUSE they cannot bear the thought of their child being “out there” somewhere and not knowing. However you feel about their choice (abortion) this is what they are thinking.
3 – Support restored rights to original birth certificates for adult adoptees. We are entitled to answers – just like the rest of you.
You start with a falsehood: it is the anti-choice people who only want 1 “choice” to be available, no matter how dangerous it is to living human beings.
Adoption is not the first thing on the mind of a pregnant woman. First, she decides whether or not she can continue the pregnancy. Only later does she decide who will raise the resulting baby, if there will be a baby to raise.
“First she decides whether or not she can continue the pregnancy”
That is the insanity that is abortion. When human life is so callously disregarded. I’m glad when my mother discovered she was pregnant, it was a foregone conclusion that she was giving birth in a matter of months. Adoption isn’t easy but it’s life, a chance at life. I love my adopted friends and can’t imagine the world without them.
Wow. It is better to kill children than to allow them to be adopted??
My daughter would be 19 if I hadn’t killed her in my abortion. Try living with that.
Gaye
1. Is suicide an option?
2. Guttmacher is the research arm of Planned Parenthood. Totally unbiased report I am sure.
I’m an adult adoptee. Like many of my adopted friends, I would MUCH rather have been aborted.
I’m an adoptee who wishes I had been aborted. Then my energy would have existed someplace else in the cosmos rather than in the clutches of my (loving) adoptive mother who reminded me on a daily basis that I was “a nothing” and “a zero.” She had pet names for her adopted son as well such as “nerd” and “loser.”
After a difficult, expensive and highly emotionally charged reunion I met my natural sister, who was also adopted out. When she was a child her (loving) adoptive mother split up with her husband and moved in with her brother who got to sleep with my sister.
Can you feel the love?
Suicide is your only option because you obviously have no choice in this life to make things different or better for yourself.
To those who are posting as adult adoptees—I’m terribly sorry that your adoption experience has been bad. Chloe, it sounds like your mom (by that I mean adoptive mom) has got some real problems. No one is allowed to use such nasty words to refer to their children. It is not right. But it does not necessarily have anything to do with adoption. I think she is either not healthy, or just not a good parent.
Anyway, I have two children through adoption (working on a third) in addition to my one biological child. I just have to point out that many of the comments here show exactly WHY proper education about adoption is so important. “Adopted out” “Give Away” “No Contact” “Out there somewhere” “Manipulated by adoption agency”…these are words from twenty or even thirty years ago. That is not the way it is done now.
If a birthmom wants to know what is going on with her child, she can choose an open adoption. She can choose a family (like us) who also wants open adoption. She can be a part of that family, not as a mom, but as a valued partner–as a birthmom. Even if she doesn’t want ongoing contact, she can still choose the family.
With even a small amount of openness, the lack of birth certificate, though annoying, is not as important because identifying information, including medical information is exchanged right from the start.
A birthmom “makes an adoption plan” and “places the baby with a family” (no more “giving up” “putting up” or “giving away” PLEASE). At least in IL, it is illegal to coerce into adoption, and coercion is the only reason to contest an adoption in court, so social workers are very careful. Also, IL is one of several states that have just opened adoption records for adult adoptees (and yes, I did support that).
I realize that my kids are only 5 and under, so there is room for things to still go wrong, but so far so good. My son’s birthmom, with whom we are fully open, has said to me “Of course placing him was hard, but being able to be open with you and visit you all has made it as easy as it could be.” So openness makes a big difference.
Adult adoptees who have posted here, again I am very sorry for the losses you have experienced in your life. But,when were you placed in an adoptive situation? Do you think it is exactly the same now? Several of the posters on the NY Times, as well as those here, are speaking as if they know all about adoption, but in reality they know nothing. They are speaking in stereotypes from 30 years ago–completely inaccurate. Don’t women in a crisis pregnancy deserve to have the most accurate and up-to-date information about adoption as they consider their options?
As a woman who had an abortion…abortion kills babies and abortion kills women. Several weeks in a psychiatric hospital, twenty plus shock therapy treatments…thousands of dollars worth of therapy over years of unbearable remorse…not to mention the emotional pain that my parents, siblings, and husband have suffered… My baby was painfully dismembered and suctioned out of my womb, all because I made a choice to take the (easy?) way out…and so conveniently, because it is legal. I fear that I will have nigtmares for the rest of my life. I would give ANYTHING to know that my precious baby was alive and with a loving family. We should not be making decisions on who lives and who dies. It is evil, repulsive, and morally wrong.
“That is not the way it is done now.”
Records are still sealed upon adoption (even step-parent adoptions). Agency policy may have changed, but the laws are still in the dark ages of the Baby Scoop Era (1940-1970).
“If a birthmom wants to know what is going on with her child, she can choose an open adoption.”
Open adoption isn’t enforceable in most states, no matter what the parties agreed to. Some adoptive parents agree to an open adoption only to close it as soon as the ink is dry on the Adoption Order. The mother has no recourse.
“With even a small amount of openness, the lack of birth certificate, though annoying, is not as important because identifying information, including medical information is exchanged right from the start.”
The lack of a birth certificate is more than just annoying – it’s the State telling the adoptee “You are not entitled to know.”
“Also, IL is one of several states that have just opened adoption records for adult adoptees (and yes, I did support that).” Not exactly. Most adoptees will have to wait until November 2011 to request their birth certificates and some will have to wait until their birthparent is deceased if a veto is filed.
“I realize that my kids are only 5 and under, so there is room for things to still go wrong, but so far so good. My son’s birthmom, with whom we are fully open, has said to me “Of course placing him was hard, but being able to be open with you and visit you all has made it as easy as it could be.” So openness makes a big difference.”
Yes it does – but most laws are still CONTRARY to open adoption.
“But,when were you placed in an adoptive situation?” Relinquished at one week old, two foster homes, place with my aparents at five months.
“Do you think it is exactly the same now?” I know it is not the same BECAUSE relinquishing parents insisted on change or they wouldn’t place their child. So they DO have it better than parents in the past, even if the laws haven’t caught up. But these changes have no effect on the CHILD who is separated from his mother after spending nine months in utero. Babies are NOT blank slates, their senses are functioning prior to birth. They are confused and grieving when part of themselves (their mother) is suddenly missing.
“Several of the posters on the NY Times, as well as those here, are speaking as if they know all about adoption, but in reality they know nothing.”
We know about adoption because we LIVE adoption. Sorry but your comment reeks of adoptive parent entitlement. Like the slaveowner telling the slave “You know nothing about slavery.”
“They are speaking in stereotypes from 30 years ago–completely inaccurate.” The stereotypes are still very much with us. Just ask any state legislator – they are worried that women will choose abortion if their total anonymity isn’t protected through permanently sealed adoption records.
“Don’t women in a crisis pregnancy deserve to have the most accurate and up-to-date information about adoption as they consider their options?” The devil is in the details. One woman’s accurate is another woman’s coercion tactic. Even calling it a “crisis pregnancy” elevates all unintended pregnancies to a level that says PARENTING is not an option.
Lee,
I am post abortive as well and would love to be here for you.
You can email me anytime
carla@jillstanek.com
I can help you find abortion recovery resources in your area.
How revolting it is to read someone post that they’d rather not have been born than been adopted. Your mother called you names? So freaking what?! You think our mothers didn’t call us names? You think our mothers were all perfect angels and if it can’t be perfect then we should all die? Are you adopted adults even for real? I have 4 friends who were adopted as infants, 4 who got fed and nurtured and are alive today, 4 who ALL got college educations, 4 who may have had some tribulations just like the rest of us. How loathsome it is that some of you would post here that you’d be better off aborted. I don’t think you’re for real and how heinous to suggest that death is better. If you are for real, you need a lot of help! If you are not, how sick.
“1. Is suicide an option?”
Yes. Your point?
“2. Guttmacher is the research arm of Planned Parenthood. Totally unbiased report I am sure.”
Adult adoptees are told that access to original birth certificates will cause more abortions. Do you agree? Do you have cold hard research (not RTL biases) to back it up?
The point of this piece is OPTIONS and the decision tree isn’t A, B or C. Each person is different. A woman could be deciding between parenting and not parenting first. If she chooses not parenting, the next decision is abort or place for adoption. Other women choose between abortion and carry to term first, if they choose to carry to term, the next decision is to parent or not to parent.
Coercion is a big factor – many women are coerced into abortion by partners and family long before they even call an abortion facility.
Abortion should be safe, legal, available and RARE. NO ONE is PRO-abortion any more than one is PRO-war. We just disagree on what are legitimate reasons and how to prevent those “legitimate reasons” from occurring in the first place.
There are quite a few adoptees who wish they had been aborted. I know several. Posted by: Gaye Tannenbaum at June 21, 2010 11:17 PM
This is unfortunate :( I pray these individuals will seek therapy and find healing. What is also unfortunate is that sometimes children raised by biological parents also wish they’d never been born. Childhood can be difficult for kids from all walks of life; it is not something unique to adopted children.
Support restored rights to original birth certificates for adult adoptees. We are entitled to answers – just like the rest of you.
Yes, I agree with you.
Do you think it is exactly the same now? Posted by: EH at June 22, 2010 8:14 AM
That more information may be exchanged today does nothing to lessen the pain for adoptees who cannot get information because they were born when different laws were in effect. A lot of us grew up without a single bit of non-identifying information, including medical history, about our birthparents. In my case, I was entitled to a copy of my original birth certificate because of a loophole in the law. Even so, it took several legal battles over the course of a few years to get it.
Please do not underestimate the obstacles adult adoptees face in getting information about their biological identity or how important this information is to us. My heart aches for adult adoptees who cannot access information about themselves. I know what that’s like. It’s difficult, but not so difficult that I wished during the process that I had been aborted.
OK Gayle. I meant what year were you placed. Were you placed before open adoption was commonplace? Does your experience reflect the experience of a modern adoptee and a modern birthparent? I’m not trying to challenge or change YOUR experience. Only you know what your experience has been like. I’m saying, if you were talking to someone TODAY about what it would be like to place a child, does today’s adoption model mirror the model that was in place when you were placed? Unless you are about 15, it probably does not. So, the current birthmother and adoptee experience would probably be very different from yours.
We have agreed that things are different now (as you say, because birthparents have demanded it, actually adoptive parents too. Many adoptive parents urged for openness). Yet, you say that this has no bearing on the child. I disagree. Of course children want to know where they came from, why they were placed, who their biological family is. Open adoption gives them this information. You say, “things are different, but laws don’t enforce it, adoptive parents can change their mind.” From a legal sense, you are right. But, a birthparent does have the right to get to know adoptive parents before placement no matter how much time that takes, and to feel completely confident in the advocacy and honesty of their social workers. I guess if everyone is out to lie, then then they could be deceived. At least at my agency, that would be unthinkable. Adoption, from start to finish, is about creating the best environment for the child. To start with lies and deceit is the opposite of helpful.
I agree that stereotypes are out there and that legislators are behind the times. The topic at hand–providing current and accurate information to the public– would only help remedy that problem.
I have remained prolife and a practicing Catholic since the surrender of my child to adoption in the mid 70’s.
Where in this discussion is the other alternative of supporting a mother and child to remain together? Living on the loss side of adoption for over 3 decades has made me a strong pro-natural family proponent. I am prolife and believe in keeping mothers and children together.
Roxanne, of course anyone who feels able to parents should have support to do so. I am simply following the topic of this thread, which is that some abortion clinics are offering to provide accurate information about adoption to their clients.
“Is suicide an option?”
Yes.
Here’s help for anyone considering suicide or anyone who is concerned about another at risk for suicide.
National Suicide Prevention Lifeline
1-800-273-TALK (8255)
http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/
A friend of mine from high school placed a baby up for adoption the year after we graduated. She was confident she had made the right decision and for ten years lived a happy, functional life.
When she married and started a family with her husband she became racked with shame and guilt about the child she had given up. She thought about her constantly and became severely depressed about the decision she had made. She has tried to commit suicide twice.
When I became pregnant unexpectedly, a year after she did, this friend tried to talk me into placing my baby up for adoption, because it had worked out so well for her. I am so glad I decided to raise my child myself, even though it was difficult. I feel so awful for her and her family.
Jill,
You are doing great work. I just wanted to offer a suggested change in wording of this article. ” accept responsibility for the the life they have created” would be more accurate (and less blameful of the woman who was only half of the people involved in creating the baby) if it was worded, “accept responsibility for the life that they participated in creating.”
I know it’s picky, but the fact of the matter is that the man who put forth half the DNA is just as responsible and we really need to step up “dad responsibility.”
I’m guessing you feel the same?
Thanks.
Ooops, I see your name is Gaye not Gayle. So sorry!
“NO ONE is PRO-abortion any more than one is PRO-war.”
If you believe abortion should be an option, you are Pro-abortion, not Pro-life.
You cannot make something RARE by constantly and continually promoting it and throwing $$$$$$$$ at it.
How SAFE is abortion for the child?
You know what would be great? If women were educated in birth control methods that were widely available, so no one would have to be aborted OR adopted.
How about supporting programs so that these loving, unselfish mothers might be able to keep their children, thereby avoiding the pain to both the mother and child that results from adoption?
And yeah, we adoptees do often wish we were aborted. We wish more often we hadn’t been adopted. It has nothing to do with our adoptive parents, whether they be nice people who love us and try real hard (like mine) or brutal and cruel (like many others). It has to do with the psychological effect of having someone (in my case, two people) give you away.
No matter what you tell us or we tell ourselves about our parents “loving us enough to give us away”, we always feel that they gave us away because there was something fundamentally wrong with us. Because they couldn’t love us.
Before you argue with that, you parents, ask yourselves if you love any of your children “enough” to give them to someone else to raise. If you haven’t, then you obviously don’t love your children, right?
As an adult adoptee, I can tell you adoption SUCKS. I was separated from my mother at birth and then adopted by a man who was NEVER a father to me but he was my molestor & abuser! I grew up afraid for my life on a daily basis and was someones toy to play with.
As an adult I am forced to a “forever” contract with him that I never signed. My amended birth certificate lists this monster as my biological father! I’m 40 years old and I can’t even possess the truthful documentation of my birth: MY ORIGINAL BIRTH CERTIFICATE!!!!
I’m reminded every day of my 2nd class citizenship here in the “land of the free”. I can’t watch a t.v. show without hearing “bastard” used to describe a vile, evil creature.
I don’t have equal rights with non-adoptees. I don’t know my ethnicity. I don’t know my heritage. I don’t have any family medical history that could save my life or the lives of my children.
Adoption SUCKS. Women in crisis pregnancies should be helped by the U.S. government to KEEP THEIR BABIES. But instead, millions of dollars go into the Multi-BILLION dollar adoption industry to separate children from their mothers. It stimulates the economy, you know!!!!
“I meant what year were you placed. Were you placed before open adoption was commonplace?”
1953. Back when adoptive parents were counseled NOT to tell anyone, not even the child. I found out at age 31. My aparents NEVER acknowledged that I was adopted, not even 20+ years after I found out. Both took whatever they knew to their graves.
“Does your experience reflect the experience of a modern adoptee and a modern birthparent?” Hard to tell as most “modern adoptees” aren’t old enough to blog yet. You are talking about my granddaughter’s generation. Nobody really knows what is the “typical” experience of an adoptee (or birthparent) of any age or era because most surveys talk to adoption professionals and adoptive parents. Only recently have the opinions and experiences of adult adoptees been sought – and those surveys are self-selecting, not random. No one even knows how many adoptees are “out there” in the US. Estimates are 4 – 6 million.
“So, the current birthmother and adoptee experience would probably be very different from yours.” Probably – but who do you ask? The adoption agencies? The adoptees who are mostly under the age of 10? The birthparents – if you can find them? We are definitely moving away from the days when unwed mothers were drugged during labor and told their baby was stillborn. The coercion is still there, however. What part of telling a woman that raising her own child is selfish, she will be giving a “gift” to an infertile couple and said couple would be “devastated” if she changed her mind, is NOT coercion? Not all adoption agencies are ethical. There are many recent stories of kidnapping and fraud in international adoptions – it’s all about the MONEY, not the children, to some people. UK local councils get “adoption bonuses” if they meet their quota of finalized adoptions. But instead of trying to find families for older children in care, they go out looking for younger, healthier, more “marketable” children and take them from parents on the flimsiest of premises.
It’s an ugly world out there.
“Adoption, from start to finish, is about creating the best environment for the child. To start with lies and deceit is the opposite of helpful.”
You cannot argue for “the best environment for the child” in a vacuum. Literally taken, that would say ANY child born into lesser circumstances should be “upgraded” to the “best” environment available. And what criteria do you use for “best”? Finances? Married heterosexual couple? Education? Matching racial/ethnic characteristics?
“I agree that stereotypes are out there and that legislators are behind the times. The topic at hand–providing current and accurate information to the public– would only help remedy that problem.”
Who decides what is “current and accurate”? Do you think that Pro-Life advocates are unbiased and anyone with a different view is just pushing their own (suspect, biased, slanted) agenda? An adoption agency will be biased towards adoption, an abortion clinic will be biased towards abortion. No one makes money when the woman decides to parent – that’s the REAL problem.
One thing that is seldom mentioned in all the talk of confidentiality is that a woman NOT having an abortion has few options to conceal the pregnancy from friends, family and co-workers if she decides on adoption. Not everyone will be on board with her “giving away” her child (that’s how some people view it, no matter what the current language preferences are). By all means educate the woman whose ultimate decision it is – but she will be influenced by those she is close to (or who have control over her, especially if she’s a minor) long before she can avail herself of any “current, accurate” or “misleading” information from a provider (adoption OR abortion).
I must have woken up on planet bizarro a few years ago because I just read a thread where people were posting that some children are better off dead. Life is hard for all of us (Thank you Fed Up). There might be pregnant women reading this thread. We can each make women feel more welcome. The stigma of carrying a child and then arranging his/her adoption? Instead of having to keep it a secret, imagine a better world. Imagine a world where women are supported, emotionally and otherwise? When my high school friend wore huge jackets to hide her pregnancy, why couldn’t we all have been nicer about it? The problem isn’t with the mother or the child. We can make this better, we can tell a teenage girl or a married women, Yes, you can arrange for adoption. We could not look smirky or judgmental. We could visit them after the adoption and offer comfort and love. Imagine that.
“If you believe abortion should be an option, you are Pro-abortion, not Pro-life.”
I’m Pro-CHOICE. You have the right to choose a label for yourself, you do not have the right to choose a label for me.
Under what circumstances would YOU allow abortion to be an option?
Rape?
Incest?
Severe untreatable congenital problems?
Life of the mother at risk?
None?
Are you also against the death penalty no matter how disgusting the crime?
If the life of a mother is at risk a child can be delivered early. The INTENT is not to kill the child but to try and save both lives. The death of the child is at times the unfortunate outcome.
The INTENT of abortion is to kill the child.
So my answer is NONE.
Women deserve better than abortion.
“You cannot make something RARE by constantly and continually promoting it and throwing $$$$$$$$ at it.”
It seems that the same can be said for adoption – and there’s LOTS more money in that.
“How SAFE is abortion for the child?”
How safe is pregnancy for a woman?
Fewer unintended pregnancies = fewer abortions.
More support and resources for women to PARENT = fewer abortions.
Temporary legal guardianships for children (rather than adoption, which is permanent) = fewer abortions.
You answered my question with a question.
How SAFE is abortion for the child, Gaye?
More support and resources for women to PARENT=fewer abortions. Agreed. More support and resources for women to put their children up for adoption=fewer abortions.
I am just wondering if there are any circumstances under which Ms. Stanek as well as some of the commentators here would find abortion acceptable.
I can call to mind at least ten women of my acquaintance who have had abortions, some as long as forty years ago and some during the open adoption era. They certainly didn’t do it lightly, but insist they do not regret their decisions.
They knew they were not in a position to keep and raise a child (in three cases another child), and could not face carrying to term only to surrender to adoption.
Just sayin’
Again my answer is none.
DW,
So if an act is not regrettable that is what determines if it is acceptable?
“Under what circumstances would YOU allow abortion to be an option?
Are you also against the death penalty no matter how disgusting the crime?”
Posted by: Gaye Tannenbaum at June 22, 2010 10:25 AM
Abortion should not be an option unless the mother’s physical life is immediately at risk. Humans become what they are told they are. If we are told we can be strong survivors under difficult circumstances, we will rise. If we are told we are weak, helpless victims, we will sink lower. Abortion is the easier, weaker ‘choice’.
I am against the death penalty no matter how disgusting the crime is. All crime is disgusting and so is killing human beings.
“More support and resources for women to put their children up for adoption=fewer abortions.”
The overall decline in the abortion rate is because more women are choosing (and being allowed to choose) to parent, not because more are placing their children for adoption.
Support/resources to carry to term: access to affordable medical care, paid maternity leave, living expenses.
Additional support/resources for adoption placement: Ability to choose the terms of the adoption and to choose the adoptive parents, state laws that allow her a reasonable period of time to make a final decision, state laws and agencies that support FATHERS who choose to parent.
Post-placement support/resources: Enforcement of open adoption contracts EQUAL to enforcement of visitation in a divorce – even including granting custody to the birthparents (rather than the State) should the adoption be disrupted (voluntary or TPR for abuse/neglect).
Telling a woman to “choose adoption” without giving her AND THE CHILD support/resources post-placement is setting them both adrift once the ink is dry.
Any thoughts?
Ooops. Typed too fast. I need to clarify that the child should be delivered, not aborted, if the mother is threatened with IMMEDIATE death as a direct result of the child. There is never a reason to suck/cut apart another human being thereby causing their death.
Are you also against the death penalty no matter how disgusting the crime? Posted by: Gaye Tannenbaum at June 22, 2010 10:25 AM
Yep, however it’s not a good comparison with abortion because the unborn child is innocent of any crime. Not so for most convicts on death row.
I wasn’t always prolife. It took me years to confront my hypocrisy. I was a total ingrate who’d been given the gift of life but refused to advocate the same for others.
Adoption isn’t all hearts and flowers. I’ll grant you that. But if I had the choice of no life vs the life I have, I’d take the life I have any day :) It’s a gift I cherish and I regret the years I took it for granted.
I pray that no one considering adoption is convinced to abort instead because of comments on this thread.
Agreed, Gaye. Women and their unborn children need support, care, help and resources to parent OR place their child up for adoption.
I don’t know where you live but 2 teenagers in my town have placed their babies up for adoption after hearing my abortion story of regret. The little girls are in loving homes and because of their open adoption, the teenagers see them frequently.
They were NOT “set adrift” but have had post adoption counseling and support groups.
Abortion is completely unacceptable.
I was never adopted. There have been times in my life when I have felt that I would rather be dead than live life. That’s not called “I would have really been better off dead”. That’s called a depression problem which needs to be treated/addressed. Depression is a disease just like diabetes or heart disease. I need treatment, not death.
I’m sorry for those who had bad experiences with their adoptive parents, but might I suggest that birth parents are not perfect either. Just because someone gave you birth does not mean they would always be happy, perfect parents. Some birth parents are just as bad or worse than the parents in the “bad-adoptive-parents” stories posted here.
I would urge anyone with suicidal thoughts or depression to get help. I’ve been there and I know how it can be.
Life is worth living, even if sometimes we might not feel like it is. I know that is hard to see and understand when you are viewing life through the pain of depression.
Thank you Praxedes for clarifying your post. :)
Fed up,
I agree. I hope and pray that any woman who is feeling confused and desperate find support in her area!!!
If you were adopted and are struggling there is help for you and I am wondering if you have had any counseling. Wishing you had been aborted is a sign you need some help.
Gaye, I just want to say that I really appreciate your advocacy for birthparents and adoptees. I’m on my way out of town, but I look forward to reading more of your comments this evening.
Carla asked, “So if an act is not regrettable that is what determines if it is acceptable?”
Just as you have decided abortion is never an acceptable act for anyone under any circumstances, they and their doctors made a considered decision on when and why it was an acceptable course of action for them.
If the heart of the abortion debate is the right to life, who are you to put the rights of the unborn over the rights of the born?
Army wife, amen to that. Depression is treatable. You know how you heal from a cut? Well, amazing the human psyche can heal too.
Ms. Tannenbaum, my answer to your question is: never. Soon doctors will be able to salvage even an ectopic pregnancy, which at the moment is certainly life threatening. But gals, we ALL know that PP isn’t making its big bucks treating ectopic pregnancy.
I wouldn’t have said this 25 years ago, but today I’ve got to tell you: believing that abortion is an option is certifiably a mental illness. When people fight and argue for the death of innocent children because they are so morally and creatively bankrupt they cannot come up with any other course of action, that is a sickness. If you are pro-choice, you are sick and you are trying to drag more people into your illness.
50 million abortions later and child abuse is still with us. It is completely illogical and insane to believe that killing people solves problems. We didn’t eradicate child abuse by making sure every child is wanted. We simply killed off a 3rd of a generation and we still have all the same problems and more. The world needs healing, not your fake choice.
An “acceptable course of action” that ended in the killing of a defenseless child in the womb.
I am for the sanctity of all life from conception to natural death.
Who are you to put the rights of the born over the rights of the unborn? Sorry. I answered your question with a question. Shame on me.
Again, Gaye, many of these issues that you point out are already common practice. I can’t speak for every state and every individual, but in IL a birthmother can’t place for adoption without birthfather agreement (different from abortion, where father’s wishes are immaterial). A birthmother also cannot sign until 72 hours after the birth. This is designed to give her some breathing room to evaluate after the baby is born. By no means is she required to sign that quickly. My daughter was in temporary care (provided by our agency) for two weeks so that her birthmother could take the time she needed to make her decision. As I’ve already said, our agency goes out of their way to encourage open adoption, in which the birthparents choose the adoptive parents and also the level of ongoing openness. Our agency also provides ongoing counseling postplacement as need for birthparents, birthgrandparents, adoptive parents, and adoptees (free for birth families). Thre are also ongoing birthparent support groups.
So, Gaye, these choices are out there, and part of this “accurate” explanation of adoption that I keep harping on would be to make sure prospective birthparents know that these services are available…that they don’t have to find a family, hire a lawyer, and do this whole thing on their own. They have rights and choices and support available to them if they choose adoption.
Regarding open adoption contracts mirroring those in divorce, here is the one point where I have to disagree. In my many hours of adoption counseling and classes I have learned over and over that we as adoptive parents must respect ourselves as “real” parents. Otherwise, we’ll be bringing all of our infertility baggage and stuff into parenting, which messes up everyone. If I feel that my birthparents are undermining my parenthood or are in some other way a detriment to my children, I need to be able to step back from the relationship. It’s my responsibility as a parent to evaluate all of there relationships until they are old enough to do so for themselves…especially relationships with other adults. I do, however, like the idea of naming qualified birthparents (those who are able to meet DCFS safety standards, and are willing) as possible guardians (along with other family members) if children have to be removed from the house. This is tricky, though, because DCFS rightly tries to keep siblings together. My kids are three siblings from three different birthmothers (including me). Which birthmother would get them?
I also wanted to mention that I’m sorry for treating the birth certificate thing so flippantly. I have photocopies of my children’s original, pre-adoption birth certificates. This is why I said it was not a big deal. I did not think of it from the perspective of the State “erasing” your identity. I can see why that is disturbing.
Really, Gaye, we agree on a lot. I hope you still don’t think I…what was the phrase…”reek of adoptive parent entitlement”.
Abortion is a choice a woman lives with for the rest of her life.
Adoption is a choice a woman AND her child (who will grow up) has to live with for the rest of their lives. Being adopted is no piece of cake people, do some research on what it’s like for we adoptees before you tell us that we were better off.
Being adopted is no piece of cake people, do some research on what it’s like for we adoptees before you tell us that we were better off.
Posted by: Jenna at June 22, 2010 12:57 PM
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Hey, that’s a super idea! Even better, let’s compare it to the research on how aborted children feel about being dismembered in utero. That way it’ll be more even-handed. Oh… wait…
The adopted people I grew up with (and there were MANY) all have great lives and are teachers, scientists, parents, and so forth. They’re some of the most brilliant and well-adjusted people I’ve known and are out there making a difference in the lives of others. They’re not wallowing in self-pity or wishing they were dead.
For the adoptees who seem to wish you’d been torn limb from limb instead, all I can do is echo what’s already been said: please get counseling. Having a death wish isn’t normal for ANYONE, and that includes adoptees. You might hate your lives, but you had the opportunity to live, and guess what? You STILL have the opportunity to make your life the best you can. It’s your CHOICE to do so. No one took your opportunities away from you, because no one arbitrarily decided to end your lives.
Speaking as a person who was not adopted but who has dealt with abandonment issues all my life, I can tell you that there IS healing for you but you can’t just keep on wishing you had never been born. Yes, you might always wonder who your parents were. You might wish you’d been raised by someone else and hadn’t been abused. I deal with the exact same issues, so it isn’t isolated to adoptees. Life has no guarantees for ANY OF US.
Someone cared enough for you to give you a chance at life. You can spit in their faces and remain ungrateful and bitter, or you can start living.
I’m an adoptee as well, and let me say that I don’t have ANY of the issues that a lot of the other adoptees seem to have here. Research ‘what it’s like for we adoptees’? Really? I was adopted at 2 months old by my parents and they have been the best parents a kid could ever want to have. Sure, I have some vague curiosity about my birthparents, but honestly, I wouldn’t mind if I went my whole life not knowing them. My adoptive parents ARE my parents. For every ‘ADOPTION RUINED MY LIFE’ story there’s a dozen stories like mine. For the record, I’m pro-choice- I think a woman should decide for herself which path of action is best suited to her situation. But there’s no reason to throw adoption under the bus in favor of either of the other two options, including abortion.
Oh, Erin…I’m so glad you got the pony and fantasy adopted life. Congratulations!!!!
Army_wife, thank you for speaking out about having depression and the importance of getting treatment. By speaking out, we can eliminate the ignorance and the shame.
I’m a much bigger fan of giving women the tools to parent rather than adoption, but obviously adoption is preferable to abortion if a woman does not want to parent.
What strikes me about this conversation is that so many of the commenters who were adopted express desire to have been aborted. I wonder how much of this results as the legacy of legalized abortion. It is pushed so much as the “right” choice for women in crisis pregnancies, that it seems only natural for some children born to such women might feel as though they should have been aborted.
Mara, I think that was really uncalled for. Erin’s story has just as much validity as any other.
I know what it is like to be cut off from a parent, as my mother refused to acknowledge my father’s paternity in any way. I saw him once during my entire childhood. Now that I’m an adult, I have a great relationship with him and my siblings.
I could spend time resenting my mother for her choice, or feeling like my dad didn’t love me because he didn’t try hard enough to get custody, but I don’t. I’m thankful that my mother decided to give me life thanks to my paternal grandmother talking her out of abortion. My life was far from perfect, but it beats being torn apart limb by limb.
Mara, sadly, no pony. Probably for the best, though, horses kinda scare me. They have really big teeth. No, what _I_ got was a home where my parents can sometimes be unfair or hard-assed, but it was a home, and I had love. The argument people seem to be arguing is that “ADOPTION IS BAD BECAUSE THERE ARE BAD PEOPLE OUT THERE”. Look, there’s been some issues with Catholic priests of late, does that mean no parent should let their child go to Catholic church? I mean, bad things have happened to some of those kids. It doesn’t change the fact that the amount of ‘dirty’ priests is VASTLY outnumbered by good, honest, genuine priests who only want to encourage and comfort their flock. Exceptions are exceptions, not the rule. I’d never justify terrible things that happen to children placed badly by the adoption system, but they ARE a reality- and they don’t just happen to adopted children. The abuse rates are just as high in nuclear families as adoptive families- most studies, in fact, find that the abuse rate is MUCH higher in nuclear families.
Quoting Lauren: “I wonder how much of this results as the legacy of legalized abortion. It is pushed so much as the “right” choice for women in crisis pregnancies, that it seems only natural for some children born to such women might feel as though they should have been aborted.’
This rings very true to me. My only child (who my mother forced me to give up and is now an adult) actually thanked me for not having an abortion. I was appalled and embarrassed by this statement of thanks. Who really thinks it is appropriate to thank his mother for not having an abortion? In reality, anyone could have been aborted – it’s not the sole responsibility of adoptees to be thankful for being born.
Stating that he is thankful for not being aborted signifies an extreme deficiency in self-esteem and an inability to fully claim his own personhood. But my son was raised by fundamentalist adoptive parents who drilled in the idea that since he was adopted he barely missed being an abortion and is somehow a lower form of human life. Anti-abortion/pro-adoption folks just don’t understand how linking abortion and adoption has the ability to severly undermine an adoptee’s view of his/her own self worth.
Who really thinks it is appropriate to thank his mother for not having an abortion? In reality, anyone could have been aborted – it’s not the sole responsibility of adoptees to be thankful for being born.
If you placed your child for adoption, then you likely were in a situation where you chose not to raise your child, and you could have made the choice to abort. Thanking you for giving him life isn’t strange at all. He is acknowledging the difficulty of your situation and the fact that you made a sacrifice for him.
Stating that he is thankful for not being aborted signifies an extreme deficiency in self-esteem and an inability to fully claim his own personhood.
You seriously think that? LOL No. That means he’s saying, “I’m grateful to be alive. Thank you for what you did.” Way to twist something that was likely heartfelt.
But my son was raised by fundamentalist adoptive parents who drilled in the idea that since he was adopted he barely missed being an abortion and is somehow a lower form of human life.
Um, you’re likely wrong again. Clearly, by adopting him, they signaled to him that he was VALUED and NOT a lower form of human life. They likely instilled in him the fact that you showed self-sacrifice and unselfishness by choosing life for him instead of aborting him.
Anti-abortion/pro-adoption folks just don’t understand how linking abortion and adoption has the ability to severly undermine an adoptee’s view of his/her own self worth.
Ok, are you having adoption regret? You’re a pro-abort who DIDN’T abort, and now you wish you had, or something? I really don’t get your entire post. You apparently have a very warped way of looking at the world, if you can’t even take a “thank you” for what it is.
To Kel: wrong on all counts.
I wanted to keep and raise my baby, I did not choose adoption in any way. I was abandoned by both the father of my child and my own family. A pregnant woman who is tossed to the wind is one of the most vulnerable individuals on earth. A woman in this situtation does not have a “choice” in any sense of the word.
Nor did I have any desire to have an abortion. I did not see being a single mother as any great shame or “crisis” as so many in this debate insist it must be.
And no, the adopters did not, and still do not value him. He was a purchase that was used to help them fit in at the local PTA because god forbid a married couple might remain childless.
“Being adopted is no piece of cake people, do some research on what it’s like for we adoptees before you tell us that we were better off.”
Does research include personally knowing adoptive parents and adopted people? Does it include personally knowing people who have chosen adoption over abortion? Many happy, well-adjusted folks who are at peace with their lives. The men and women who have not dealt with the reality of their abortions are a whole different story though.
Is there some kind of group for suicidal adoptees that was contacted to have all their members post here? Sounds like a Pity Fest.
Those of you who would rather be dead than adopted, need to call the suicide hotline number that was provided above and quit misrepresenting the loving decisions that more often than not surround giving up a child for adoption and choosing to adopt children.
The Culture of Death is in Full Force as was predicted.
“Oh, Erin…I’m so glad you got the pony and fantasy adopted life. Congratulations!!!!”
Posted by: Mara at June 22, 2010 2:25 PM
Mara, Please get help for being abused so that you won’t be destined to give out to others the nasty things that were dealt to you.
Any child born after 1973 is an abortion survivor.
My mom and dad were abusive. I was not adopted. So? I have been given an amazing opportunity to rise above and change a legacy and I have been blessed with a husband and four children to raise. It is up to me to decide what kind of life I want to have.
I wanted to keep and raise my baby, I did not choose adoption in any way. I was abandoned by both the father of my child and my own family. A pregnant woman who is tossed to the wind is one of the most vulnerable individuals on earth. A woman in this situtation does not have a “choice” in any sense of the word.
Nor did I have any desire to have an abortion. I did not see being a single mother as any great shame or “crisis” as so many in this debate insist it must be.
But you did have a choice. And you made the choice for life.
Being a single mother is not a great shame or crisis (I was raised by a single mother who was incredibly strong), but when you were in your situation, it was indeed a “crisis” in which great stress was upon you, and you had to make a decision about your life and your baby’s. This is why crisis pregnancy centers (or pregnancy resource centers) exist. To help women during such a huge period of change in their lives, and to lend them support as needed.
Who are the ones telling mothers they can’t do it alone? Who are the ones saying, “You’ll never finish college if you have that baby?” It isn’t the pro-lifers.
And no, the adopters did not, and still do not value him. He was a purchase that was used to help them fit in at the local PTA because god forbid a married couple might remain childless.
Posted by: other mother at June 22, 2010 3:05 PM
For whatever the reason, they adopted and raised him. And for whatever reason, he chose to come back and THANK YOU for giving him life when you could have legally aborted him. You didn’t take that road, even in the face of such abandonment and pain. You *were* in a situation that was extremely difficult, and many young women in your situation choose to abort. You didn’t, and obviously your son is thankful that you didn’t, and likely thankful he had the chance to know you. The opportunity to know your son is awesome, and I’m so glad you get to do that.
Also, hello people I haven’t talked to in ages! (i.e. the lovely carla)
Is there some kind of group for suicidal adoptees that was contacted to have all their members post here? Sounds like a Pity Fest.
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Praxedes, I wondered the same thing! lol Weird. Wonder if they found their way here via Facebook and Twitter…
“For every ‘ADOPTION RUINED MY LIFE’ story there’s a dozen stories like mine.”
You do, of course, have the research to prove this…
Then there are the people, like me, who had a fairly decent adoption experience but who DON’T like being treated like a perpetual child when we ask for something the non-adopted have – a copy of our OWN original unaltered birth certificates.
You may not be more than mildly curious as to who your birthparents are. Not everyone cares about genealogy. You have the right NOT to care.
My anger is directed at RTL groups who tell me that *I* can’t know who my mother is because it would cause more abortions. That’s where the anger over “be thankful you weren’t aborted” comes in – being told that we should just ACCEPT our second class status because someone let us live.
Carla said “Who are you to put the rights of the born over the rights of the unborn?”
According to you, you did, and now would like to deny that freedom of choice to others, despite the fact that so many who have been in your shoes do not feel as you do.
I think it is germane to the issue that Ms. Stanek has intentionally framed her argument to draw attention away from the fact that adoption is not a reproductive choice.
“Who are the ones telling mothers they can’t do it alone? Who are the ones saying, “You’ll never finish college if you have that baby?” It isn’t the pro-lifers.”
Every adoption agency in America uses that line. Many even have a huge checklist with items that are needed to raise a baby that is shoved in the mother’s face to convince her she is incapable. That is only one aspect of the many subtle coercive techniques that are used by adoption agencies to obtain the baby. Interesting that the same coercive techiques are used by both abortion and adoption agencies.
“The opportunity to know your son is awesome, and I’m so glad you get to do that.” Actally, I don’t since his adopters have demanded that he have no relationship with his natural family. As a nearly 30 year-old adult he is still required to meet their needs and reassure them that they are mommy and daddy. He is subjected to ridiculous games involving guilt, shame, and insecurity. Mighty Christian of them, wouldn’t you say?
To who ever wrote that everyone born after 1973 is an abortion survivor: abortion has been around FOREVER. It was not magically created circa 1973.
adoption is not a reproductive choice.
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Abortion isn’t a reproductive choice, either. If one is having abortion, then one has ALREADY reproduced. Otherwise, no abortion would be occurring. It isn’t preventing reproduction, and it isn’t choosing NOT to reproduce. Sperm and egg unite, and a new life is formed. That’s pretty basic. Abortion is the deliberate ending of a preborn human life.
ERIN!!! :) I didn’t know your adoption story but thank you for sharing it!! How are you?? Summer plans? Do tell.
Hi D.W.
How many is so many?
Yes. I had my child killed in my abortion and I will regret it for the rest of my life. Now I speak, help women in unplanned pregnancies with a CPC, facilitate Rachel’s Vineyard Retreats for abortion recovery, am a State Leader for Operation Outcry and will spend the rest of my days telling others how abortion hurt me.
Freedom of choice?? What a laugh.
“To who ever wrote that everyone born after 1973 is an abortion survivor: abortion has been around FOREVER. It was not magically created circa 1973.”
No, but it increased dramatically after Roe. We have 4000/day now.
I agree with you that adoption agencies should not be using coersive techniques to pressure women into placing a child for adoption. Overall, more of an effort should be made into supporting women so that they can raise their own children.
Gaye: I have never heard the argument that open adoption would lead to more abortion. Could you elaborate a bit more about who is using this line?
I do, in fact.
http://aspe.hhs.gov/hsp/09/NSAP/chartbook/index.pdf
The Department of Health and Human Services ran this study. A brief review of their findings:
“The report found that 85 percent of adoptive children are in excellent or very good health, and that adoptive children are more likely to have health insurance than children in the general population. Adopted children also were less likely to live in households below the poverty threshold.
The report also found that adopted children benefit in other ways than children in the general population:
· Adopted children were more likely to be read to every day as a young child (68 percent of adopted children vs. 48 percent of children in the general population).
· Adopted children were more likely to be sung or told stories to every day as a young child (73 percent of adopted children vs. 59 percent of children in the general population).
· Adopted children are more likely to participate in extracurricular activities as school-age children (85 percent of adopted children vs. 81 percent of children in the general population).
· More than half of adopted children were reported to have excellent or very good performance in reading, language arts and math.
With regards to the type of adoption, the report found that children are adopted nearly equally from the three types of adoption: 37 percent of adopted children were adopted from foster care, 38 percent were adopted through a private domestic adoption and 25 percent were adopted internationally.
Findings also included statistics regarding the openness of adoption, showing a strong tend supporting notions that adoptive families are increasingly becoming more comfortable with more open adoptions. Sixty-seven percent of respondents reported having a pre-adoption agreement regarding openness (such as visits or phone calls with the birth family) and 68 percent of adoptive families reported post-adoption contact with the birth family (such as an exchange of letters, e-mails or visits after the adoptive placement). Furthermore, the study found that nearly all – 97 percent – of adopted children ages 5 and older know they were adopted.”
Adoption isn’t the archaic machine it was back in the 50s. It has adapted and continues to adapt as problems arise. This is just one study- there are several others, and I would be happy to link you to as many more as you would like.
I don’t buy into the whole ‘be thankful you weren’t aborted’ thing either, because if you were aborted, you’d never have a clue. I think it’s just kinda silly. But I DO think that you’re taking their claim a little too far- nowadays a larger and larger number of adoptions are open adoptions, and even in closed adoptions, the children are being informed and given information as they grow into an understanding of it. Please try and consider that the adoption process has changed MASSIVELY over the last 50 years, and that just because you had a bad experience, it doesn’t reflect a need to eliminate the practice. Heck, it’s pretty much the same thing I say to pro-life advocates who use women who have had bad experiences as a reason to outlaw abortion. That’s why it’s all about choice!
I had my motherhood killed by adoption and I will regret it for the rest of my life. Now I speak, help women in unplanned pregnancies become great mothers, facilitate retreats for adoption recovery, and will spend the rest of my days telling others how adoption hurt me.
Every adoption agency in America uses that line. Many even have a huge checklist with items that are needed to raise a baby that is shoved in the mother’s face to convince her she is incapable. That is only one aspect of the many subtle coercive techniques that are used by adoption agencies to obtain the baby. Interesting that the same coercive techiques are used by both abortion and adoption agencies.
Is that what happened to you?
“The opportunity to know your son is awesome, and I’m so glad you get to do that.” Actally, I don’t since his adopters have demanded that he have no relationship with his natural family. As a nearly 30 year-old adult he is still required to meet their needs and reassure them that they are mommy and daddy. He is subjected to ridiculous games involving guilt, shame, and insecurity. Mighty Christian of them, wouldn’t you say?
No, it isn’t. Not everyone who claims to be Christian always acts in a Christian manner. Discarding Christianity and “fundamentalists” because of your experience with some hypocrites is unfortunate. Being filled with hatred, bitterness, and adoption regret is no way to live a life, either.
To who ever wrote that everyone born after 1973 is an abortion survivor: abortion has been around FOREVER. It was not magically created circa 1973.
Posted by: other mother at June 22, 2010 3:28 PM
No, but it got the US Government’s Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval in 1973. Oh, happy day.
other mother,
So you resent a woman who aborted and wants to spare others the same pain? cute
What a crabby thread.
Gotta get me some summertime sun.
I’m wonderful, carla! I hope you are too? I’m taking summer semester for now, but afterwards I have about a month off before fall semester starts and I’m hoping to maybe go on a little vacation at some point- hopefully with my amazing boyfriend who just got out of the Navy after 5 years of service as a broadcast journalist. Life is being very good to me. How about you? Taking your munchkins anywhere special for summer? Maybe Disneyworld or somethin fun like that?
Other mother, I think you offer very valuable insight, especially in that you are trying to help other mothers facing unplanned pregnancies.
I would only say that I do think that for some women, adoption is the best option. There are women who do not want to ever be parents and feel very strongly about this stance. For those women, I think offering adoption as an option following an unplanned pregnancy is very important.
“To who ever wrote that everyone born after 1973 is an abortion survivor: abortion has been around FOREVER. It was not magically created circa 1973.”
Posted by: other mother at June 22, 2010 3:28 PM
Yes abortion was around even before the invention of clothes hangers! But were 1 of 3 mothers aborting?
I tend to believe one’s odds were better of escaping the womb in one piece before 1973.
“Is that what happened to you?” No. I already told you I was abandoned by all parties. I did not seek out the services of an agency, I was told to get rid of the baby or live on the street.
All you need to do is visit the website of any agency and you will find propoganda that is directed toward young mothers. In my era the coercion was direct and brutal; today it is much more sophisticated and subtle.
And spare me the bitter/angry labels. Those are old, tired words that are used to discredit every individual who is critical of the status quo. It is my right to use my experience to enlighten others on the problems associated with adoption, just as women who have been harmed by abortion should be allowed to voice their negative feelings.
“Who are the ones telling mothers they can’t do it alone? Who are the ones saying, “You’ll never finish college if you have that baby?” It isn’t the pro-lifers.”
Adoption agencies give scholarships to mothers who place their children.
http://www.americanadoptions.com/pregnant/scholarship
“Is that what happened to you?” No. I already told you I was abandoned by all parties. I did not seek out the services of an agency, I was told to get rid of the baby or live on the street.
So, if you didn’t use an agency, did you place your son with a family you knew? I’m trying to understand your situation.
All you need to do is visit the website of any agency and you will find propoganda that is directed toward young mothers. In my era the coercion was direct and brutal; today it is much more sophisticated and subtle.
I’m not disagreeing with you. I have often said that if it weren’t for the enormously ridiculous cost of adoption (money to be made by many parties, obviously), I would have adopted by now. I think it’s great if you are speaking out and telling young women that they CAN be good mothers on their own, because it’s the truth.
And spare me the bitter/angry labels. Those are old, tired words that are used to discredit every individual who is critical of the status quo.
I’m not trying to discredit you. But you’re clearly very angry and bitter about your experience. You were abandoned by your baby’s father and by your parents, and that’s enough to make anyone extremely angry. I’m not saying some of your anger isn’t justified. You obviously can’t stand your son’s adoptive parents, either, and it’s all left a very bad taste in your mouth.
It is my right to use my experience to enlighten others on the problems associated with adoption, just as women who have been harmed by abortion should be allowed to voice their negative feelings.
Posted by: other mother at June 22, 2010 3:50 PM
Yes, it is, but it’s also interesting how there are many, many adoptive parents on these boards, as well as adopted children, but suddenly today, we’re only hearing from people who say it’s awful to be adopted, or it’s better to be DEAD than adopted. Negative feelings are one thing, but saying you’re better off dead is just twisted, and totally misrepresents the adoptive process as well.
For all those who think mothers give up a baby and move on happily, take a look at this current thread regarding mothers who are suicidal or suffer bouts of depression for LIFE after giving up a baby:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AnJxloFRgCyOaWAUtOQry5OuDH1G;_ylv=3?qid=20100622052255AA4AvCV
“Who are the ones telling mothers they can’t do it alone? Who are the ones saying, “You’ll never finish college if you have that baby?” It isn’t the pro-lifers.”
Adoption agencies give scholarships to mothers who place their children.
http://www.americanadoptions.com/pregnant/scholarship
Posted by: Gaye Tannenbaum at June 22, 2010 3:56 PM
**********************
Women who abort to stay in school can keep their scholarships, too.
I think it’s great that an adoption agency would give back to the girls who choose to place their babies.
Yes, crabby thread! There are some angry bitter people sitting at computers today.
So let me get this straight: unless you can cite a bunch of studies and statistics, you must agree to be pro-choice? Rubbish.
Abortion has been around forever? RUBBISH! Abortion was actually rare before the sexual revolution. It was extremely rare, more rare than polka dots on a zebra. Even as recently as the Civil War, any kind of surgery carried the deadly risk of infection. And if eating fancy herbs or concoctions really resulted in safe historic abortions, then what the hey did we need a supreme court ruling for in 1973?
Abortion advocates want you to believe that women have been aborting left and right all through history. It makes them feel better about it and they hope YOU will feel better about it. However, historic evidence of abortion as we understand it is rare indeed. What communities actually did (such as some of the ancient Romans) was put their children outside and “expose” them to death. This is cited in the New Testament and other historical documents. It is in fact, infanticide by neglect, NOT abortion. Nice try, abortion advocates, but I’m not buying it and neither is the younger generation. Keep trying though, if you “frame” abortion just right, all us pro-lifers will simply roll over and agree with you. Lol!
other mother, do you believe that women can be suicidal and depressed after aborting?
“I think it’s great that an adoption agency would give back to the girls who choose to place their babies.”
Is this not financial coercion? Or even baby-buying? How is offering a tangible financial asset in exchange for a baby considered ethical?
No, it’s not coercion. She has a choice. Is it financial coercion for the adoptive family to pay for the medical bills and OB visits, and even groceries of the expectant mother? To me, if a woman doesn’t want to raise her child and wants to go to college, then there’s a way for her to do that.
She can back out at any time.
Carla said, “Freedom of choice?? What a laugh.”
I’m sorry you were pressured into going against your wishes.
“I will spend the rest of my days telling others how abortion hurt me.”
I think it’s fine telling others how much abortion has hurt you, just as I feel that women who have surrendered a child for adoption should be able to tell people how much relinquishment has hurt them.
And adopted people, who really are – or should be – the crux of this discussion, deserve the right to say how adoption has affected them, as well as the right to know their personal history and have access to their original birth certificates.
As far as abortion is concerned, I firmly believe that the decision whether to carry a pregnancy to term or not has to be a matter for the individual conscience.
“other mother, do you believe that women can be suicidal and depressed after aborting?”
Of course, same as with giving up a baby. The best medicine is prevention: birth control to prevent unwanted pregnancy. When pregnancy does occur, keeping and raising the baby is the most natural course of action. For those woman who truly have no desire for a child, adoption is still acceptable – it should just be understood to be be potentially harmful, just as abortion is viewed.
When we stop with the shaming of single mothers and the refusal to help those in need both abortion and adoption would be rare; baby and mom would stay together which is the ideal.
I’ll add my standard disclaimer: no child should remain in a dangerous household and abusers should not be allowed to continue to harm their children. My comments are in regards to domestic infanct adoption; adoption from foster care is a completely separate issue.
“other mother, do you believe that women can be suicidal and depressed after aborting?”
Of course, same as with giving up a baby.
**************
The difference is that the abortive mother intentionally brought about the death of her child. The other gave her child life.
Though the grief of both may be intense, I would hope that giving life could bring some amount of comfort to a mother grieving her adopted child.
I agree with your comments re: single mothers and with your disclaimer.
Thanks for a good discussion, and thanks for lending your support to expectant mothers.
Sorry, should clarify that the above poster, Kelli, is me. When I am logged into the site, my moniker changes.
“For those woman who truly have no desire for a child, adoption is still acceptable – it should just be understood to be be potentially harmful, just as abortion is viewed.”
Adoption is potentially harmful to both mother and/or child.
Abortion is potentially harmful to mother.
Abortion is always deadly to child.
Peace.
“No, it’s not coercion. She has a choice. Is it financial coercion for the adoptive family to pay for the medical bills and OB visits, and even groceries of the expectant mother? To me, if a woman doesn’t want to raise her child and wants to go to college, then there’s a way for her to do that.
She can back out at any time.”
WHOA NELLY! This is when the coercion machine revs up big time. Many expectant mothers are told that they will have to pay thousands of dollars (medical expenses, attorney costs, living expenses) if they change their minds. Not legally enforceable – but how many young women will know this?
They are told that “Bob and Becky” (the prospective adopters) will be devastated. They’ll be called selfish for wanting to raise their own child. A good read is “Birth Mother, Good Mother” from the National Council for Adoption – an industry lobbying group.
Another tactic of some adoption agencies is to bill the adoptive parents for medical expenses and then have Medicaid pay as well. But that’s fraud against the adoptive parents, a separate issue.
Well, Gaye, you’ve convinced me! I’m going to start first thing in the morning advocating the destruction of unborn children ’cause by-golly adoption is so durn difficult. I mean, so what if my (adopted) friend always remembers my birthday, or had awesome adventures, or eats at some of the best restaurants? We all know now because you’re so convincing that he’s better off dead. Do you think he’d mind if I killed him now? I mean, it would be the latest term abortion ever, but y’know, it’s for the best. Lol!!
“Under what circumstances would YOU allow abortion to be an option?
Are you also against the death penalty no matter how disgusting the crime?”
Posted by: Gaye Tannenbaum at June 22, 2010 10:25 AM
====================================
What disgusting crime did an unborn baby commit?
I have several friends who were adopted (in the mid 1970s) who have no desire to search for their biological parents because they “have a mom and dad” (their words).
In addition, I know a wonderful young mom raising her two year old son who is in very close contact with the family raising her seven year old son. He knows both of his moms and is close to his baby brother. All parties involved are very happy.
As a pediatric emergency and trauma nurse, (and I know this is very unscientific, but it is my experience in the trenches) I have not witnessed any cases of adopted children brought in as child abuse cases. I have, however, had to deal with several dozen abuse cases of children by their biological parents.
My lovely Erin,
If you send me thousands of dollars I will take my munchkins to Disneyworld!! :) We are doing the camping thing and having a staycation this year. Checking out all of the fun stuff around us.
We are great and busy and crazy. So far so summer.
I am glad you pop in and let me know how you are!!
I love how these cockroaches crawl out of the woodwork spewing: “I know a friend, of a friend, of a friend who’s step grand-niece is adopted and is VERY HAPPY. Oh, pulllllllllleeeeesssseee. You are an expert now? You can’t speak for ANYONE but yourself, don’t EVER presume to speak for an adoptee.
Crawl out of the woodwork? I’ve been a poster on here for quite a while now… well over a year (I think getting close to 2?)
As for “spewing”… you’re the only one doing that.
Heaven forbid someone had a positive experience with adoption. Or that someone point out that it isn’t all “fantasy and ponies” with all biological children, either.
As for being an expert, my area of expertise is pediatric emergency and trauma services. I spoke my experience and I stand by that experience.
I will pray for you, Mara. You are obviously hurting a great deal to feel the need to take it out on others.
By the way, Erin is an adoptee… why isn’t her experience as valid as yours?
“I have not witnessed any cases of adopted children brought in as child abuse cases. I have, however, had to deal with several dozen abuse cases of children by their biological parents.”
Several cases of Russian adoptees killed by their aparents. The two kids in the freezer. The kid from Kansas who was missing for 10 years before anyone caught on – the aparents still collected the adoption subsidies – I don’t think they ever found him. Most recently the 4 year old who was drowned in the bathtub – aparents charged with first degree murder.
The difference is – aparents are SUPPOSED to have been checked out thoroughly before being allowed to adopt.
Cockroaches spewing, eh? Mara, if you please, do not presume to speak for me.
I am deeply sorry and remorseful that a pony was not given to you. I did not get a pony either, so that makes me an expert on ponilessness. On the other hand, my cousin’s neighbor had an adopted pony..
Hi Gaye. Did those a-parents have anything in their histories that was suggestive of potential for violence that the agency missed or ignored? Just curious, NOT trying to excuse abuse.
Erin, THANK YOU for sharing your story. Looks like there are at least 3 of us “regulars” who are adopted.
carla- that sounds just as good, if not better than Disneyworld! The best part of any vacation is the people you spend it with and the stuff you remember isn’t the rides and gimmicks. My best vacations were at a little cabin my grandparents owned with terrible plumbing and an old turn-dial television that got two channels. We’d go out to the dock at the crack of dawn to fish off the pier with my grandpa, and if it was raining, all the better! My grandpa passed away last year and my grandma is now living in a nursing home near us, so I’m really hoping that I can get up there at the end of the summer to visit it one last time before it gets sold.
Mara- I speak for an adoptee because I am one ^_^
Gaye
These are my thoughts. If our country spent as much on life as it does death there would be a lot of of very disappointed people walking around.
I like the adoption over abortion ad. I find it’s very positive and gives moms a real choice.
Gaye, I did not say that cases of abuse by adoptive parents do not exist. I was stating that through MY ER in a major metropolitan area (I worked in both the children’s hospital ER and the county hospital ER) I did not have the experience of having an adopted child as a patient due to abuse. I did have the experience of having several dozen children abused by their biological children.
Such as the young girls whose parents murdered one daughter and then locked the other young girl in a closet with her dead sister’s body so long that the body decomposed and the living child became heavily infected by her remains (infection clear down to the bone). She was also blinded in one eye and had (clear on the xray) multiple bone fractures all over her body in various stages of healing.
Even if we go back to historical data for the “evil” period of adoptions prior to say, 1990 when open adoptions were becoming more prevalent, the statistics bear out the fact that biological children are at a great statistical risk for abuse than adopted children. (I hasten to add, one abused child is too many. Also, again, no one is saying that no adopted children are abused and we are rightfully horrified at the abuse of any child, biological or adopted.)
According to a study by David Gil (Violence Against Children, Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1970) only .4 percent of abused children were abused by adoptive parents. Since at least 2 percent of the children in the United States were adopted in the 1970s(Encyclopedia of Social Work, National Association of Social Workers, New York, 1977), that meant the rate of abuse by biological parents was five time that of adoptive parents.
The good news about rates of child abuse are that education is working and overall, rates are going down (the recent economic turndown has had a negative effect, however, raising the rates somewhat… but those numbers are still being analyzed).
The group at HIGHEST risk of abuse and neglect is children living in a one-parent home with a live in boyfriend/girlfriend of their biological parent. That I assure you is borne out in my experience, sadly to say.
There has been a 32% reduction in child abuse and neglect overall in the past 13 years… while there was a concurrent increase of about 58% in child abuse and neglect for children in single-parent homes with a live in boyfriend/girlfriend during the same time frame.
(Source: http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/opre/abuse_neglect/natl_incid/nis4_report_exec_summ_pdf_jan2010.pdf)
In addition, Child Maltreatment 2005 reports that “of the perpetrators who were parents, more than 90 percent (90.6%) were the biological parents, 4.3 percent were the stepparents, and 0.7 percent were the adoptive parents of the victim. The parental relationship was unknown for 4.5 percent of the victims.” http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm05/summary.htm
“Gaye: I have never heard the argument that open adoption would lead to more abortion. Could you elaborate a bit more about who is using this line?”
Not open adoption per se, allowing adult adoptees access to original birth certificates whether the adoption is open or closed is the issue.
The Eagle Forum in South Dakota won’t even speak to South Dakota SEAL (adult adoptees) because of the abortion issue. Most recently, Marie Tasy of NJ RTL testified against NJ’s adoptee access bill.
Opponents used to cry that “abortion rates will skyrocket” if adoptees are allowed to obtain their original birth certificates. Since then, abortion statistics from six states with unrestricted access and a dozen more with some kind of access have not shown any spike in abortion rates. So now opponents are just saying “if only one…” Hard enough to prove a negative, but when it’s a future negative there’s no good response.
Interestingly, the usual opponents are Catholic Conference, RTL groups, ACLU and PP – talk about strange bedfellows!
Erin,
I am sorry about your grandpa. :(
Yes, we hope to make some memories this summer too.
The days they are a flying…..
God bless you, sweet girl. You can always catch up with me on my mom blog. fourby40. :)
FYI
A young girl heard my abortion story last year. She became pregnant that summer and couldn’t get my words out of her head. She gave birth 2 days ago and will be putting her girl up for adoption. I just spent some time crying over her beautiful photos on facebook.
Amazing grace.
Gaye–sad but true on the birth certificate front. If you go to the Pro-Life Action League’s website, you can read my strongly-worded comment asking them to reconsider their opinion against opening of birth certificates. I was shocked when I realized many pro-life groups opposed what I consider to be a no-brainer of a good idea (actually, I summarized my theories on this subject on my blog a couple of years ago, long before it came up in IL).
“Hi Gaye. Did those a-parents have anything in their histories that was suggestive of potential for violence that the agency missed or ignored? Just curious, NOT trying to excuse abuse.”
Since adoption records, including home studies, are sealed, we’re never going to find out.
http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/local/mom-convicted-of-killing-kids-in-freezer-022210
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/25/AR2010032503095.html
” ‘The court certainly questions how that [the adoptions] could have been done, but it was done. And I’m not going to go behind that,” said the judge. Indeed, as Richard Wexler of the National Coalition for Child Protection Reform pointed out, the judge really couldn’t delve further because of the strict privacy laws that govern child welfare cases and family court proceedings in the District and Maryland. ”
Gaye, we can go horror-story-for-horror story if you want, but it’s truly pointless.
Would you care to address the statistics themselves?
Also, would you care to answer my question about what disgusting crime an unborn child has committed that warrants the death penalty? Because otherwise, I see no comparison whatsoever between putting to death a person convicted of mass or serial murders, such as Son of Sam or Jeffrey Dahmer and putting an unborn child to death who has not done anything to anyone… other than exist.
“In addition, Child Maltreatment 2005 reports that “of the perpetrators who were parents, more than 90 percent (90.6%) were the biological parents, 4.3 percent were the stepparents, and 0.7 percent were the adoptive parents of the victim. The parental relationship was unknown for 4.5 percent of the victims.” http://www.acf.hhs.gov/programs/cb/pubs/cm05/summary.htm
Not disputing the findings, but I’d like to see the figures adjusted for socio-economic levels. Do we know how many children in the general population live with bioparents as opposed to adoptive parents?
Michelle, gosh, you’re right! You are just SO SMART! You’ve finally solved the abortion dilemma! If us women were just more educated about birth control…I mean, its so DARN CONFUSIN to put those condoms on! Which end is up, ya know what I’m sayin? And swallowing a birth control pill. I feel I wouldn’t have fallen pregnant with my son while on Yaz if maybe they had included a pictorial instruction booklet on proper pill swallowing technique. I mean, maybe I swallowed the pill the wrong way and thats how it ended up not working for me? I mean birth control is SO CONFUSING in this day and age of non-technology and information. Thank goodness millions of tax dollars are given to Planned Parenthood so they can give out the pill for free. After all, even THEY want abortion to be safe, legal and RARE, right? Oh wait, Planned PArenthood CHARGES for the pill! So much for blaming pro-lifers for denying everyone on earth access to birth control. Why exactly is Planned PArenthood getting millions of tax dollars and yet STILL charging their patients for the pill? Happened to my friend after her abortion at their facility. She had an abortion at Planned Parenthood as a broke college kid and they still would not give her the pill for free at her follow up appointment. Planned Parenthood talks a lot about birth control and access to it…why don’t they put their money where their mouth is? Oh right, cause Cecile Richards needs that money to decorate her lush home. Got it.
Thanks for those links, Gaye. I don’t know anything about adoptions in DC, but I fail to see why the agency cannot and SHOULD NOT be investigated in light of a-mom’s 1999 conviction for making threats. You’d think there’d be some kind of formal review by the state after any homicide, let alone multiple homicides! Sealed records shouldn’t be an escape route for slipshod backgrounding. If that’s what the law permits, that law needs to be changed!
ninek @ 9:38 PM, mara has indicated that her experience with adoption was an abusive one. IMHO she deserves compassion. It is not her fault that she was not treasured as a precious child the way she should have been. I pray that she finds healing and peace.
Carla@ 10:15PM, I just love how your outreach bears so much fruit!
“I have several friends who were adopted (in the mid 1970s) who have no desire to search for their biological parents because they “have a mom and dad” (their words).”
Many adoptees don’t have any desire to search until they are in their 30s or older. I know many adoptees who didn’t search until their adoptive parents were deceased.
Unless you have a really close relationship with an adoptee, you might not get the whole story. It’s like asking a casual friend – “So, how’s your marriage?” Chances are they’ll say “Fine” even if it isn’t.
If they don’t think they have a right to complain about their adopted status (for whatever reason) they are unlikely to say anything that would sound like a complaint.
Gaye, I’m not sure how good you are at math, but I was born in 1972 and am 38 years old, so I’m not sure how we are not “in our 30s or older”.
In addition, one of the people in question was my sister in law. I’m not discussing casual people I happen to know… I am talking about people I am VERY close to.
As for making adjustments for socioeconomic status, I’m not sure if you realize that most adoptive families are in a higher socioeconomic status (they have to be in order to make it through all the hoops) and that a higher level of socioeconomic status is correlated with lower rates of child abuse and neglect. Therefore, this is not a good argument against adoption.
I still fail to see why people are so reluctant to admit that there might be adoptees who are happy about being adoptees. Think about the founder of Wendy’s, Dave Thomas. He was so happy about having been adopted out that he developed a foundation specifically to help more families adopt.
And you have ignored my question about what disgusting crime an unborn child is guilty of that warrants the death penalty?
Maafa21 Good Movie goes into detail how the abortion industry got started through the power of eugenics started by francis darwin and his cousin trying to create a better species of humans.
to those who had bad experience being adopted. you can very well not even be alive today. yes you say you rather been better aborted. tho look at the life you have now if you are married and have children you love. a loving wife or husband then consider that a blessing. you would not have that if you were dead by being aborted
For goodness sake. Can we agree on one thing? You don’t want people aborting. Adoptees are telling you they don’t want people adopting. What this boils down to is NO ONE WANTS UNPLANNED PREGNANCIES.
So why aren’t we working towards education and availability of birth control?
Please tell us Michelle where birth control ISN’T available in this country so we can organize a massive CONDOM DROP.
Yes Michelle. Again, using condoms is SO CONFUSING. We need more education…really? And there is no availability of BC. You can’t walk into every corner drugstore and buy contraceptive devices can you?
My employee refused to use birth control. Got pregnant and her family pressured her into an abortion she didn’t want. Did she “learn” from that experience and use birth control? NOPE. She HAD THE PILL AND NEVER TOOK IT. Her boyfriend refused to buy condoms knowing she wasn’t taking the pill cause he didn’t like how they felt. Yet they claimed they didn’t want to have kids. She got pregnant again and her abortion was scheduled for yesterday’s date 3 years ago. Fortunately at the last moment she changed her mind and her little daughter is alive today.
I want to give add my thoughts on EH’s respectful response to me yesterday.
“Roxanne, of course anyone who feels able to parents should have support to do so.”
I believe that every mother who WANTS to parent her child should have the support to do so. It becomes an issue of social justice when mothers feel unable to parent or feel pressure to relinquish because of age, income, education status; all of which are temporary situations.
When it comes to adoption, there is an enormous paradoxical “AND” for adoptees.
Many adult adoptee say that they grew up with loving caring families and that they couldn’t have asked for better parents.. (here is the big “and”)… AND that they lost their original families, heritage and identities as a result of their adoption.
My relinquished son has told me that he has loving parents. I know that this is his reality, AND I know that he lost me and his father and all of his original family through the process of relinquishment and adoption.
Whoopsies.
Forgot the bananas. Massive CONDOM AND BANANA DROP.
Much better.
What blew my mind about this thread is the idea that some posters have, that if you list and detail enough unpleasant adoption things, you can convince us that abortion is better. I don’t care how long Gaye’s posts are or how frequent, the problem with abortion is that it kills people. Some of us are very interested in NOT killing people. I’m sorry for those who have been abused, but I still think a child is better alive than certainly dead. I value life. I’m sorry not everyone agrees with THAT. Birth Control mentality has led us to this point. Divorcing sex from procreation is what got over 50 million children murdered. Yes, birth control has become ubiquitous (I can’t throw a rock around here without hitting a drugstore that sells BC), but 50 million dead children later, it has clearly not worked. Since the Pill hit, abortion has skyrocketed. That’s the fact.
You know, it is possible for an adoptee (adopted as an infant) who has had a good experience and loving adoptive parents and still feel pain about the original separation.
Just because someone criticizes adoption doesn’t necessarily mean they had a bad experience or bad adoptive parents.
Who is most likely to give their children up for adoption? Underage girls. Who is uneducated? Underage girls.
The law still stands that we teach abstinence only in schools, and that any other programs that seek to deal with teenagers have funding removed if they mention anything other than abstinence.
So the only time we would get to educate anyone about birth control would be after they reach the age of 18. Which is too late.
As for availability, can anyone go get condoms? Nope, only people with valid IDs over the age of 18. Can anyone go get birth control? Nope. Only people over 18 or with parental permission. Oh, and if they can afford it. (If they have insurance.)
ninek, maybe I missed something, but I haven’t seen anyone claim that abortion is better then adoption. What I have seen is some people saying that adoption isn’t easy for the mothers, and can be hard on the child.
There’s a lot of hate in these comments, and bottom line is – when it comes to a tricky and immensely personal subject like abortion, you just can’t try to dictate or limit people’s actions because of your own personal beliefs or values. So you’re anti-abortion? Don’t have an abortion then. However, if a woman chooses to have an abortion, then it’s her right to do so, and she’ll have to deal with any emotional consequences. Same goes for women who choose to relinquish children to adoption. You can’t say adoption is wrong based on the odd horror story. And even for adoptees like me who have a great adoptive family, there are still issues that go hand-in-hand with having been adopted. That’s just how it is. No, I would not rather have been aborted, and I would never personally get an abortion – but neither of those statements are arguments against abortion, either. I also would never give a child up for adoption. And to the woman who says that open adoptions are becoming the norm, I think that’s great, provided that they remain open. As stated already, this is not currently something that can be enforced, and is an unfortunate display of selfishness on the parts of the adoptive parents who go back on their word – they clearly aren’t putting the needs of their adoptive children first. Women should have options – they have the right to make their own decisions (YES, including abortion – no matter how abhorrent some may find that), but hopefully, as open adoptions become the norm and all the kinks are worked out, they will prove to be more popular than closed adoptions, and certainly more popular than abortions.
I think what ninek was saying is that there have been some adoptees who say they wish they had been aborted rather than adopted, and then another commenter (or maybe it was ninek, I can’t remember) mentioned that that is like those adoptees are saying their new families/wives/children mean nothing because they’d rather be dead than alive.
“So the only time we would get to educate anyone about birth control would be after they reach the age of 18.”
Michelle, We need to go back to educating young people about self-control, not birth control.
“when it comes to a tricky and immensely personal subject like abortion, you just can’t try to dictate or limit people’s actions because of your own personal beliefs or values. So you’re anti-abortion? Don’t have an abortion then.”
K, UGH! your line of thinking is the same as one who would state (and yes they exist): “when it comes to a tricky and immensely personal subject like adult sex with children, you just can’t try to dictate or limit people’s actions because of your own personal beliefs or values. So you’re anti-adult/child sex? Don’t have sex with a child then.”
Ninek, I appreciate your reminders about our needing to realize how bad the proabort movement exaggerates in the present as much as they did before abortion was legalized. We need to put that poor ol’ hanger back in its rightful place in history. That being a useful tool to unclog drains. Geesh.
“As for availability, can anyone go get condoms? Nope, only people with valid IDs over the age of 18. Can anyone go get birth control? Nope. Only people over 18 or with parental permission. Oh, and if they can afford it. (If they have insurance.)”
This isn’t true. Anyone can walk into a grocery store and buy a pack of condoms, and doctors can prescribe birth control to minors without their parent’s knowledge.
Mei Ling… no one is saying that adoption is 100% peachy keen or that we shouldn’t strive to overcome those flaws in the system that we can.
Just that it is far preferable to be adopted than to be dismembered and suctioned to death.
It just strikes me that Jake and other pro-aborts who visit this blog have the attitude that if everything can’t be PERFECT (PERFECT child and PERFECT life) then everyone who falls short should just be killed. What a horrible outlook on life.
Your family (adoptive or biological) wasn’t perfect so you’d rather be dead? Please. Stop focusing on yourself so much, go volunteer at a battered women’s shelter and maybe you’ll see life ain’t that bad for you! Selfish people….
@ Sydney M: While I don’t understand the sentiment about an adoptee preferring to have been aborted as opposed to adopted, may I kindly point out – it’s not about the adoptive family being perfect. It’s not about any family being perfect.
It’s about the mother – any mother who WANTS her child – to have the rights to KEEP her child.
@ Elizabeth, you say:
“Just that it is far preferable to be adopted than to be dismembered and suctioned to death.”
I agree. But it’s also not fair to present the argument that adoption is “only” a matter of abortion vs. adoption. There’s parenting too, and adoption is the result of the symptom which causes people to doubt parenting and suggest abortion.
The hatefulness is rampant on this comment thread.
Adoptees get to speak for themselves. Believe it or not, they are HUMAN BEINGS. Saying they are wrong or just had individual bad luck is saying “I don’t respect adoptees and don’t believe they have any right to air the crimes and indignities they’ve suffered.” Your own adopted children will live their lives knowing this about you.
People who are adopted by U.S. parents are legally denied virtually every one of the basic human rights enumerated in the U.N.’s international treaty on the Rights of the Child. In individual cases they may have the good luck to be assigned to a family that voluntarily gives them some of those human rights, but it’s not a lifetime guarantee.
Your sweet little adopted babies and toddlers will grow up to read every single thing you have written in your blogs and forums. They will know you. If you want to know what they’ll have to say at 20 or 30 or 40, re-read this comment thread.
[Screen name corrected by moderator. Use of multiple monikers is not allowed, as it leads to confusion as to whom we are addressing. Thanks.]
Sydney, you are so right! Helping other people is the best way out of depression and ‘why me’ thinking. I volunteered at a beautiful facility for dying children. The girl I was scheduled to visit was in a mobile chair. I asked her if she wanted to play games or what, and she said, “Let’s go visit, some kids can’t get out of bed.” This tiny child lead the way and we made the rounds of children that were confined to bed. That little girl was not depressed- she was truly empowered.
I am an adult adoptee who believes that abortion is ending a child’s life.
Still I chose abortion for one of my children as I thought it was a preferable alternative to having my child live knowing her own mother gave her away.
I wanted to keep and raise my child. Had there been resources to help me, I would have.
It was/is a very difficult grievous situation for me. Still if I had to choose again between abortion (killing) and adoption (abandoning) I would make the same decision today.
Your conflation of the two issues is very painful to me and I think your meta-message to adoptees everywhere, is that they are living abortions.
The reality is most unwanted pregnancies end up being loved and parented by their own mothers, not given up.
Joy, I’m so sorry for you loss and that you felt you had no option but abortion. Know that none of us feel that adoptees are “walking abortions” or feel as though their biological mothers are guilty of abandonment.
I truely hope that you find healing.
It’s about the mother – any mother who WANTS her child – to have the rights to KEEP her child.
Posted by: Mei Ling at June 23, 2010 4:05 PM
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NONE of us disagrees with that. That is why many of us either work with or donate to crisis pregnancy centers in order to assist with young mothers being given the assistance that they need. Please do not equate our support of adoption for those mothers who truly feel that they cannot in any way raise their own child with an attitude that some women don’t have the right to raise their own child.
We are simply disputing the idea that it is somehow preferable to murder a child than place them with a family eager and willing to parent them.
Joy, I cannot understand that thought process at all. No matter how I try to wrap my mind around it, I simply cannot.
If your child is alive, especially with today’s options of open adoptions, you have the possibility of conveying to your child that he or she was not abandoned… that he or she was truly valuable to you and that you chose to place him or her with the most loving family that you could find in order to do what you could not do at the time…
If your child is dead, there is no chance to ever communicate, to explain, to meet, to share in the joys or sorrows of their life.
How murder is preferable to adoption will never make sense to me.
Some mothers parent by performing the day to day raising of their child.
Some mothers parent by carefully choosing and placing their child with the most loving family they can find.
Some mothers parent by performing the day to day raising of a child placed with them by another mother.
The one option that is not parenting is choosing to kill your child rather than allow them to be raised by someone else. The idea of “if I can’t raise you I won’t let anybody else do it!” is very disturbing to me.
The hatefulness is rampant on this comment thread.
Adoptees get to speak for themselves. Believe it or not, they are HUMAN BEINGS. Saying they are wrong or just had individual bad luck is saying “I don’t respect adoptees and don’t believe they have any right to air the crimes and indignities they’ve suffered.” Your own adopted children will live their lives knowing this about you.
People who are adopted by U.S. parents are legally denied virtually every one of the basic human rights enumerated in the U.N.’s international treaty on the Rights of the Child. In individual cases they may have the good luck to be assigned to a family that voluntarily gives them some of those human rights, but it’s not a lifetime guarantee.
Your sweet little adopted babies and toddlers will grow up to read every single thing you have written in your blogs and forums. They will know you. If you want to know what they’ll have to say at 20 or 30 or 40, re-read this comment thread.
[Screen name corrected by moderator. Use of multiple monikers is not allowed, as it leads to confusion as to whom we are addressing. Thanks.]
Posted by: Momof3girls at June 23, 2010 5:18 PM
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Point 1: The only hatefulness on this thread is that of those adoptees who are unhappy about having been adoptees. They go so far as to denigrate and insult other adoptees who have posted here that they are happy about their own situation. (See Mara’s post to Erin about “fantasies” and “ponies”).
Point 2: All adoptees are people, not just the ones who agree with you. By denigrating the experiences of those adoptees who do not agree with you, you are saying that THEY are wrong and that you don’t believe they have the right to air the blessings and happiness that THEY have received.
No one has disputed the concept that there are adopted children who are placed in bad situations. The fallacy in your thought process is assuming that this is because they are adopted. The truth is, there are adopted children who are abused and neglected. There are biological children who are abused and neglected. There are adopted children who are cherished and adored. There are biological children who are cherished and adored.
Where we need to focus our efforts is on the prevention of abuse and neglect… not the villification of all adoptive parents.
Point 3: The U.S. is NOT a signatory on the U.N. Treaty on the Rights of the Child. ALL children in the U.S. are at the mercy of the parents they find themselves being raised by… In individual cases they may have the good luck to be ASSIGNED OR BORN to a family that voluntarily gives them some of those human rights, but it’s not a lifetime guarantee.
Point 4: No one has said that any adoptee’s life experience is “wrong”. However, it is perfectly accurate to state that they, as an individual, has had bad luck… just as it is perfectly accurate to state that a child raised by a biological family that neglects or abuses it has certainly had bad luck.
Point 5: Who gives you the right to assume that you know how every single adopted child, regardless of their life story, will feel about their adoption as an adult? What makes you the only one who knows what is right and true? People are individuals and no two will react in exactly the same way even to the same circumstances. If anything is insulting to adopted children, it is the assumption that they are all the same and they are all horribly wounded by their adoption. Some are, I am sure. Others are not. Why is only your side of the story valid?
I have two cousins that were adopted into their (two different) families and one that was placed for adoption that now keeps in touch with her birth mother, my aunt (we me her 21 years ago).
Most adoption experiences are positive, and there are very few that are negative (Sadly we did have one here in the USA that was negative when a young Russian child was sent back to Russia) :(
@ Elizabeth: I have a question for you.
You wrote the following:
“That is why many of us either work with or donate to crisis pregnancy centers in order to assist with young mothers being given the assistance that they need”
But then write this:
“Please do not equate our support of adoption for those mothers who truly feel that they cannot in any way raise their own child”
What is the difference between those who “truly feel they cannot raise their own child” and those who have been given assistance? Didn’t those who have been given assistance “truly feel” they could not raise their own child otherwise they would not need assistance?
In other words, you point out that many of you here lend assistance to those who need it… then in the next sentence you point out how those who “truly feel” they cannot raise their own children is not in line with the automatic assumption that adoption should be promoted for those mothers?
Those who need assistance would have either intended to abort their child or may never have considered abortion and opted for adoption instead. So what is the difference between the mention of support for those who wouldn’t be raising their children if NOT for [generic] your assistance, and those who believe(d) they cannot parent?
Also… this:
“that he or she was truly valuable to you and that you chose to place him or her with the most loving family that you could find in order to do what you could not do at the time…”
The child doesn’t necessarily understand this on an emotional level. No matter how much intellectually the child is able to grasp, it is the infant’s psyche which does not understand that mommy didn’t have enough money or mommy didn’t have enough food. What the infant perceives is: I cried for mommy. She did not come back. Why? Why did I do wrong? I must have been “bad.” I must have done something “wrong.” I keep crying but she is not coming back.
The adoptive parent can be the substitute parent for what the original mommy could not do. What the adoptive parent cannot do is *become* the original mommy. And therein lies the problem of the infant’s psyche.
You do not leave people out of love. It doesn’t work that way.
“Some mothers parent by carefully choosing and placing their child with the most loving family they can find.”
Then they are considered “birth parents” a.k.a. “fake parents.” Which means socially speaking they are not parents at all. People here may not agree with me. I challenge you: walk up to an adoption outsider and talk about adoption. You will hear the term “birth parent” instead of just “parent”, and if you ask about it, you will hear the spiel about how a “real” parent does far more than just “give birth.”
“Still I chose abortion for one of my children as I thought it was a preferable alternative to having my child live knowing her own mother gave her away.”
While I don’t agree with the abortion sentiment, I completely understand the second sentiment. It’s not a fun feeling to perceive abandonment, even if it is NOT the factual truth.
Mei Ling, the difference is in WHO is making the choice. If I tell a woman that if she chooses to parent her child we will help her with classes, baby supplies, insurance, food, housing, etc., etc., etc., and she still says, “I’m sorry, but I do NOT want to parent a child” well, that is up to her. That is different than not offering to assist her and just telling her, “Oh, you’re poor or young? Well, crap, you just aren’t entitled to raise a child, we’ll give it to someone more worthy.”
One is her decision, the other decision is made by others.
As for what an infant does or does not perceive. I am a certified pediatric nurse (that is a specialty certification beyond a regular RN that requires 1800+ hours of pediatric nursing care and a 2 hour written exam on child development).
What an infant perceives is: “I am wet”… “someone changed me” or “no one changed me”. “I am hungry”…. “someone fed me” or “no one fed me”. “I am scared or tired or cranky or sick”… “someone held me” or “no one held me”. The person in question might be mom, dad, grandma, grandpa, aunt, friend…. or adoptive parent. The infant knows whether its needs are met lovingly or not.
You are attributing developmental tasks of adolescents to newborns. Newborns are learning to trust the world around them. Identity concepts, which are the tasks of pre-adolescents to adolescents are not a part of the infant psyche.
You may consider a birth parent a “fake parent”, but I do not, and I know of no one who does. Does a real parent do more than give birth? Yup, they sure do. Someone who “only” gives birth is the person who births a child with no thought to its welfare and either simply walks away or tosses it into the trash. A loving biological mother either parents the child or chooses carefully the family who will do so.
You say that “you do not leave someone out of love”. Really? That’s a universal truth? There is never a situation where out of love for someone you chose to walk away? And, with today’s open adoptions, there can be any number of levels of involvement, so it isn’t necessarily a walking away.
Can you truly not see the difference between saying, “Eff you, I don’t give a rip what happens to you” and “I really love you but because (whatever the mother’s reason is) I am choosing to place you with this family. I can’t wait to see how you grow up and I look forward to hearing all about it.”
No one is arguing that there were not abuses in the past. No one is arguing that it is a perfect solution. However, great strides have been made due to the efforts of birth parents, adoptive parents, and adopted children who have grown and assessed where the shortcomings were and worked to change legislation and shape the way adoptions proceed in the future.
One of my friends who chose adoption for her oldest son has not missed a single birthday or Christmas of his. She has been included in every family celebration. She witnessed his kindergarten graduation in person and he knew who she was. When he crawled, walked, got teeth, spoke, rode a bike… she was called… she got to go over and see… she was given pictures and videos to keep as well.
I am sure that her situation is 100% removed from what adoption used to be like, and that we have not moved far enough yet in the direction of it being the common result. However, it is a great situation. She was 15 when her son was born and did not think that any amount of parenting classes or financial support would create a situation that she wanted for him. She also wanted him to grow up in a two parent home (having not had one herself). This was her choice and we have talked about it extensively.
It is not a contradiction to say that those who want to parent their children themselves should be given the resources and assistance to do so… and that those who after a great deal of thought and soul searching honestly believe it would be better for their child to be placed with an adoptive family should be supported in that decision as well.
I firmly agree with you that no child should grow up feeling that they were abandoned. For those children whose parents choose adoption, we need to put a great deal of effort into understanding how best to support them as they grow and how best to meet their psychosocial needs adequately so that they do not have to feel that way.
Joy and Mei Ling–how is abortion NOT abandonment? you leave your child at that clinic. Dead.
You both go into the clinic but only you walk out. How is this preferable to the “abandonment” of adoption?
“Mei Ling, the difference is in WHO is making the choice. ”
Ah, well, you didn’t specify that in your previous comment.
“The infant knows whether its needs are met lovingly or not.” & “Identity concepts, which are the tasks of pre-adolescents to adolescents are not a part of the infant psyche.”
I’m not talking about comparing the neurological consciousness of an infant to an adolescent. I’m talking about the infant bonding with mother IN the womb.
Do you believe an infant does not know its mother after spending 9 months? Or – perhaps you don’t believe in the mother & child psychological connection during and after birth? If you don’t, then let’s agree to disagree on this.
“You may consider a birth parent a “fake parent”, but I do not, and I know of no one who does.”
I absolutely believe the birth parents are real parents. I don’t even like using that term as it sets up the terminology field for offensiveness and dictates the discussion. I was simply debating your argument that a birth parent can be considered “parenting” by “choosing” to place a child for adoption.
My point was quite the contrary – that although *I* believe “birth” parents to be real parents – most people would not consider that to be a “parenting” role – lovingly or not.
Open adoptions aren’t legally enforceable. There is no legal contract.
“You say that “you do not leave someone out of love”. Really? That’s a universal truth?”
Well, to a child, hearing that they were kept instead of given up for adoption is far more likely to give them the message that they were loved rather than to give them up. If you love someone, truly love someone – YOU WANT TO STAY WITH THEM. NOT GIVE THEM UP.
(Of course, in today’s world, that’s not always realistic. But emotionally that sentence makes no sense.)
Playing Devil’s Advocate: Would any adoptive parent give up their child out of love? After all, the more love a parent loves someone, they should prove by giving up their child, because there will *always* be someone out there “better” than the parent. Surely there is someone “better” than you out there?
On a more serious note, I know what you mean: if the mother feels she cannot provide financially, emotionally, materialistically, then she is giving up her child so that child CAN be provided for in those areas.
But it’s not because of love. It’s because the mother can’t provide financially, emotionally, or materialistically.
Okay, sure you can say “Well she loved her child SO MUCH that she gave him up to provide what she couldn’t.”
But she’s not doing it specifically *BECAUSE OF LOVE.* IF she never contemplated abortion*, it doesn’t matter if she loves the child – she’s got no resources or assistance, so she can’t parent, period. It doesn’t matter how much she loves the child because it’s about the resources she isn’t supplied with or the support she doesn’t have.
*IF she considered abortion, that’s a whole other issue about “loving the child enough” to give birth and then place, and I won’t argue against that
In other words: if it was all about love and based on love, the biological parents would be able to keep their child, no matter the situation. But we all know that’s not realistic.
P.S. “Better” is mainly an objective term by undefinable economic standards based on perspective, which is precisely why the parenting & love cannot be compared between parents and would-be parents.
(That’s why I said I was playing Devil’s Advocate, because one person’s idea of “better” will never be the exact same as another person’s and is subjective even in adoption discussions.)
I am noticing a trend here that every negative thing in the life of an adopted child seems, for some adoptees, to be interpreted as being because of being adopted… whether that is true or not.
We have already extensively covered the fact that abuse and neglect, regrettably, happen in both adoptive and biological families.
The psychosocial “crisis” (to use the Eriksonian term)of pre-adolescence and adolescence is one of identity. That crisis is certainly more complicated in cases of adoptees, but it is not an easy stage for any adolescent to navigate.
Adoptees obviously must grapple with the concept of whether to interpret their placement as abandonment or being loved. They, however, are not the only people who have to grapple with feelings of abandonment.
I was raised by my biological parents, but when I was 9 my mother developed malignant melanoma. She was given a 50% chance of living 3 years and a 30% chance of living 5 years. She worked hard to ensure I could survive without her and, when she went into remission, decided she wasn’t going to “miss out” on anything in life ever again. Apparently, staying home with my brother and myself counted as “missing out” because she was rarely home, choosing to travel the world extensively during the rest of my childhood and adolescence and beyond. She missed my senior chorale (in which I had a major solo) because she was climbing the Grand Canyon. On the one hand, I got to go on a couple of those trips with her and they immeasurably enriched my life. On the other hand, I was shuttled from neighbor to neighbor and church friend to church friend when I wasn’t in school if my dad was working… because from ages 2-6 she was in college, from ages 9-13 she was away in hospitals out of state for treatment and from age 13 on she was always gone, somewhere or another. Abandonment was a major issue for me.
My husband’s parents divorced when he was 18 and both parents remarried. His stepmother despised him and has, to this day, ensured that he does not feel welcome in their home (she even said to my dad a few months ago that she can only “handle him in small doses”). His mother and stepfather moved to another state and lost touch entirely for a great number of years. 20 years later they are just beginning to form a relationship. Abandonment was a major issue for him.
Some things may be “because” of being adopted… but they may also just be because life is messy and imperfect and filled with imperfect people who let other people down… even when they aren’t trying to do so.
Adoption will always be with us. There will be children whose parents die. There will be children legitimately abandoned by parents too caught up in drugs or alcohol or what-have-you. There will be children who were abused or neglected that the state stepped in and removed from their homes. And there will be situations in which a young lady, despite offers of help, truly feels it is in her child’s best interest to choose adoption. Adult adoptees and their parents, both biological and adoptive, are in a great position to take the lessons they have learned in life and work to ensure that whatever heartaches they faced are alleviated for the next generation….
“They, however, are not the only people who have to grapple with feelings of abandonment.”
They are also being invalidated (being proven right now) through others telling them they really weren’t abandoned and were given up lovingly – and since they just don’t want to face the fact that the abandonment is not, in fact, literal emotionally perceived abandonment, this is driving home the message that we are defective and therefore should be dismissed.
And as much as I agree with your analogy, Elizabeth – about the biological child who is kept and then emotionally abandoned (because I believe you are right on this) – I do not find it fair to invalidate adoptees on their perceived abandonment.
They have just as much right to their emotional abandonment as a child who was kept with an emotionally abusive mother who abandoned the household.
@ Sydney: Joy should probably be the one to answer this, since she openly admits on here that she has had an abortion, but I’ll give a few reasons I’ve observed online:
You ask: How is abortion NOT abandonment?
Some people don’t consider an unborn fetus as a human being. Because it’s encouraged (or so I’ve heard) that abortion is most supported during the 1st trimester, the fetus actually hasn’t developed enough to feel pain.
I believe there has been scientific evidence to support this, although again, you’d have to ask someone who did an abortion for the scientific sources on this. I think also to a limited extent, an abortion can be done without complications during the second trimester. This leads to the logical conclusion that the abortion is done during these time-frames so the fetus does not feel pain.
The argument that “you’re killing an unborn child!” will fall flat on its face if you talk to someone who believes that the fetus during the first trimester is only a clump of cells. (Again, not voicing agreement/disagreement, but I think this makes up a part of the argument when it comes to the Pro-Lifers)
Why am I answering then, if I don’t know? Because I’ve read about adult adoptees who had an abortion because they didn’t want to put the pain of adoption on someone else. It probably sounds selfish to you, and I’m not going to voice agreement or disagreement but – evidently, they couldn’t take that risk. Not for THEM, but for the child.
Abortion is only legal to a certain time-frame otherwise it creates more complications for both fetus and mother.
Also, I think the child actually has to be alive (as in, physically born) in order to legally term it as physical abandonment. I could be lawfully wrong, however.
@ Elizabeth: “I am noticing a trend here that every negative thing in the life of an adopted child seems, for some adoptees, to be interpreted as being because of being adopted… whether that is true or not.”
I sincerely hope I did not give you that impression. Personally I do not feel that way… although I do acknowledge there are others that may.
I cannot understand that thought process at all. No matter how I try to wrap my mind around it, I simply cannot.
Posted by: Elisabeth at June 23, 2010 9:29 PM
Hi Elisabeth. I won’t presume to speak for joy. But I can tell you why I, as a formerly proabort adoptee, might have engaged in the same line of thought as hers.
As an adoptee, I was legally bound to a contract to which I never consented. If I became pregnant and unable to raise my child, I would have to decide whether to abort or bind my own child to a similar contract to which s/he didn’t consent. Once I signed the relinquishment papers, I would have no control over the outcome. My child might have a positive adoption experience. Or s/he could have one of the bad outcomes we sometimes hear about. I would be unable to control this. But I could ensure my child wouldn’t have a bad adoption experience by taking control over the outcome myself and having an abortion.
I could also, to some degree, control the type of emotional issues I’d have to deal with resulting from the loss of my child, because I’d definitely be losing this child one way (adoption) or another (abortion). If I chose adoption, I’d be confronted with identification with the very same “mistakes” I judged my birthparents as having made (eg-abandonment of a child). Abortion would have relieved me of that emotional conflict.
As a prolifer, the life of my child would be my paramount concern. As a proabort, my concern would have been controlling outcome for myself and my child because the “life” issue would have been a non-issue for me. Hope that made sense.
It’s not a fun feeling to perceive abandonment, even if it is NOT the factual truth. Posted by: Mei Ling at June 23, 2010 10:00 PM
True. I can’t imagine it’s fun feeling it when it is the factual truth either. Some of us would have been ostracized and not accepted by our b-dads and extended families of b-moms had we stayed with our b-moms. The fact is that for some of us, abandonment/rejection issues were going to be a fact of life no matter what. I thank God my b-mom did what she could to minimize mine!
I’m honestly doubting whether or not to remain here, simply because the whole abortion vs. adoption vs. parenting debate is so tiring.
It’s not really what I prefer discussing because in so many ways, the abortion arguments put a lid on the debate and the thread goes nowhere.
It’s actually making me feel rather uncomfortable at the moment… although I recognize that given my recent responses I am likely to end up coming back.
While I can, and have often, argued the validity of emotional abandonment through adoption, the abortion argument tends to halt discussion rather than expand on it. By its very foundation of debatable ethics as shown in the title, I think that whatever I have to say about abandonment will be automatically at a disadvantage…
I am always eager to discuss the pros and cons of adoption ethics by e-mail or blog. Both of which can be accessed through my username.
You deleted my comment, and a number of others. Which means you know we speak the truth, and you’re ashamed of yourself. As you should be.
My apologies. Today’s comments were missing, but now have reappeared on my screen.
From this blog, I have learned that there are no rape victims, torture victims, or murder victims in the world. As long as there is one person who can say “my brother’s best friend’s cousin’s hairdresser hasn’t been raped, tortured and murdered” that means it hasn’t happened to anyone so we shouldn’t bother with silly little things like trying harder to protect innocent victims.
The compassion of those who only care about life up until birth.
I’ll leave you to your own consciences.
Mei Ling, I apologize if anything I said in my comment led to your discomfort. I look forward to checking out your blog when I have more time. Peace :)
For those that can’t wrap their heads around my thought-process, how can I think of adoption as murder and still think it is more humane than adoption ?
Well I have deep personal beliefs and believe that I know where my child is, safe with God. I don’t believe bodies are the be all and end all.
I also think some things are worse than death.
I think life is a hard proposition in the best of circumstances add to that the real emotional impact of being left by your mother was too much for me.
For those kind souls who would suggest that I simply off myself, I am a mother, that would be another abandonment. Which I said, I don’t support.
It is an anguished decision for many of us. I don’t think this kind of dialog supports anyone actually.
We cannot take care of the people that are already born, that I do know.
“I am noticing a trend here that every negative thing in the life of an adopted child seems, for some adoptees, to be interpreted as being because of being adopted… whether that is true or not.”
What IS true is that adoptees seldom get any validation of their losses. This thread being a prime example.
“Adoption Loss is the only trauma in the world where the victims are expected by the whole of society to be grateful” – The Reverend Keith C. Griffith, MBE
“We have already extensively covered the fact that abuse and neglect, regrettably, happen in both adoptive and biological families.”
It’s not abuse and neglect – which may or may not happen in an adoptive family. It is a loss that the non-adopted cannot understand – a loss of identity and connection to roots. Some people feel it more acutely than others. Even in the best adoptive family, that loss is still there and must be acknowledged.
“The psychosocial “crisis” (to use the Eriksonian term)of pre-adolescence and adolescence is one of identity. That crisis is certainly more complicated in cases of adoptees, but it is not an easy stage for any adolescent to navigate.”
For adoptees, identity formation CONTINUES beyond adolescence. For some, the crisis reappears when they have children of their own and realize that for the first time, they know someone who looks like them and shares their DNA.
“Adoptees obviously must grapple with the concept of whether to interpret their placement as abandonment or being loved. They, however, are not the only people who have to grapple with feelings of abandonment.”
But adoptees, as a group, are told (1) their abandonment isn’t REAL because they have an adoptive family, (2) any abandonment that happened was out of love, and (3) they are NOT entitled to know about the family they previously had, the ones who loved them sooo much that they abandoned them.
You may not want to share your story with other people, but if you do and you say “my mother abandoned me” you get sympathy. If you say “my mother abandoned me and I was adopted” they say “Oh! Lucky you!”
Joy, so bodies aren’t the end all be all. Therefore, I detect heartache in your being. Should I have the right to protect you fromthat by sending you to God? You know, kill you?
If my three year old ever feels any misery, heartache, sadness, grief or loneliness is it then preferable to murder him? cause ya know, bodies aren’t the end all be all.
There is NO justification for murder. Especially the murder of an innocent child that was relying on you for his very life.
You talk of God. Do you read His Word? He says CLEARLY “Thou shalt not KILL!” He doesn’t say “Unless you fear your child will feel abandoned, then its okay to kill.”
Hannah brought her much longer for son Samuel to the temple when he was around 3 or 4. Do you think he felt abandoned? He grew up to be a mighty prophet that guided Israel spiritually and his name is recorded for all history.
Look, adoption is not the answer for every crisis pregnancy. No pro-lifer is saying it is. If a mom wants to parent I am glad there are organizations that will help her parent. No woman should feel pressured to give up her baby for others to raise.
Adoption MAY SOMETIMES be an option.
Abortion should NEVER be an option. It is the killing of that child. I mean Andrea Yates murdered her 5 children because she was trying to save them and send them back to God. Thats insane!!!! You don’t kill people to save them from life. INSANE.
No one here says a woman can’t be SINCERE when aborting. Her reasons for doing so may be very sincere but that doesn’t change the reality of what abortion has done to her child.
Adoption may cause emotional hurt in a child’s life. It may not. But at least the child has life and can grow up to better his or her life.
Please do not take this thread as a sign that WE ALL think the same way about adoption. These comments are not indicative of the prolife movement as a whole and to say that we are all one thing or another is foolish.
I am sorry to those that have had horrifying adoption experiences. I am sorry that you felt like you were not heard and that you would rather have been aborted.
To be honest I have never heard so many adopted folks wish they could have been aborted before. It makes me sad.
Notcuteanymore,
I appreciate the apology for your comments. As a moderator, I would appreciate a courtesy email if your comments are missing.
carla@jillstanek.com
Thank you.
Joy,
I had an abortion 20 years ago and have received many emails from women needing support. Please email me. There is hope and healing in abortion recovery.
They are also being invalidated (being proven right now) through others telling them they really weren’t abandoned and were given up lovingly – and since they just don’t want to face the fact that the abandonment is not, in fact, literal emotionally perceived abandonment, this is driving home the message that we are defective and therefore should be dismissed.
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Frankly, I have no way of knowing how or why any child came to be adopted.
However, can you even imagine the horror of a mother who did give her child up for adoption out of love who comes on here and hears that ALL adopted children are simply abandoned and that no one ever “leaves someone out of love”, that being a loving parent is incompatible with choosing adoption for their child… which is the only logical conclusion of many of these comments.
How on earth you can take a comment of mine about how we need to take these experiences and emotions and look for ways to ensure that future adoptees have their emotional needs met and then twist it into the statement above about invalidating the emotional needs of adoptees is beyond me… and very intellectually dishonest.
A second thought… I think that there is also an immense amount of pressure on adoptees TO continue to feel abandonment. If you are happy, like Erin, then you are ridiculed or told that YOUR experience is not valid.
First of all, if a psychosocial crisis of a specific stage, such as identity vs. confusion is not successfully navigated it WILL continue until such time as it is successfully confronted and dealt with or until the end of life. That is the point of Eriksonian psychosocial stages… that each crisis must be met and dealt with or the person becomes stuck or mired in that particular stage.
Therefore, for those who could not trust that their physical and then emotional needs would be met in infancy, that they would be fed and changed and so on… they spend their entire life not trusting or moving beyond that need for immediate gratification UNTIL they learn to deal with that so that they can move on. Sadly, many people are never given the tools or assistance to do so.
So yes, for adoptees who are not successful in resolving that crisis for whatever reason… they remain stuck with that throughout adulthood until they do resolve it. Just like all of the other adolescents who do not resolve that crisis… for whatever reason.
No one has said that adoptees do not have a legitimate loss to grieve… that is what it is, a very true and valid loss that needs to be grieved, handled, and dealt with. How or why any current adult adoptee came to be adopted is not known. There are plenty of children waiting in foster care to be adopted because they WERE abandoned by biological parents more interested in drugs or prostitution or whatever than they were in properly raising their children.
Also, NO one here has said that adoptees do not have the right to their life story and the truth of how they came to be adopted. We are, rightfully, horrified that a crucial part of your life stories has been kept from you. This is where I speak of taking the wrongs that have been done to you, acknowledging their pain and hurtfulness and working to ensure that the next generation of adoptees do NOT have to deal with the same issues is very important. It is because adult adoptees have worked and lobbied and crafted legislation and gotten their stories out that children born today and placed in open adoptions have the ability to BOTH be given a loving home AND have their legitimate emotional and psychosocial needs for identity and roots met.
What I fail to see acknowledged here is the very real progress that has been made on behalf of adoptees BY adoptees who decided to take their valid concerns and heartbreaks and make life better for the next person… instead of just condemning all adoption because they are still mired in their emotional crisis.
Guess what… life sucks sometimes. For everyone. It’s real. It hurts. And it needs to be dealt with. Enabling emotional immaturity by encouraging people to remain mired in their pain is very hurtful to them…. acknowledging their pain and working to help them integrate it into their life and find a way to heal and move past it is the only option that allows for future growth and a healthy life.v
“How on earth you can take a comment of mine about how we need to take these experiences and emotions and look for ways to ensure that future adoptees have their emotional needs met and then twist it into the statement above about invalidating the emotional needs of adoptees is beyond me… ”
Because you’re saying that emotionally perceived abandonment doesn’t count in comparison to physical abandonment (eg. your example of your biological parents emotionally abandoning you).
Maybe in your perception it doesn’t, but for those adoptees who feel it, that can be quite dismissive because what you’ve just implied is that emotionally abandonment can’t be taken in its own to be valid since it is not physically-walking-away abandonment.
I’m not saying your parents did not emotionally abandon you – it is clear from your example that they DID. That said, it doesn’t give you the right to say “Well, look, *I* was emotionally abandoned and you were adopted, so please don’t think your experience counts in abandonment because you got loving parents.”
Yes, many of us did get loving parents. That also co-exists with the perceived emotional abandonment. To say that perceived emotional abandonment is not as significant as actual walking-away abandonment is just as dismissive as saying we shouldn’t feel loss just because we were adopted.
“acknowledging their pain and working to help them integrate it into their life and find a way to heal and move past it”
And I agree with this. The problem is what Gaye pointed out:
“But adoptees, as a group, are told (1) their abandonment isn’t REAL because they have an adoptive family, (2) any abandonment that happened was out of love, and (3) they are NOT entitled to know about the family they previously had, the ones who loved them sooo much that they abandoned them.”
Elizabeth, you said I have twisted your statement around, correct? I said it based on your response that the mother gives up her child out of love. I said no, that’s not it works. You don’t leave someone you love. You pointed out about how the mother perhaps loves her child SO MUCH she gives it up to have the support she cannot provide. Regardless if this is a “loving” abandonment or not, it’s still FELT as abandonment and is no less valid than PHYSICAL abandonment.
Gaye has patiently explained to you that this is emotional abandonment, even if it doesn’t look that way, even if it’s not factually true -> “Any adoptees are told their abandonment is not real because the abandonment happened out of love.”
You then proceed to put up an example of how your own biological parents emotionally abandoned you. I’m not disagreeing with your real life example because I know it’s true in a lot of cases. Really, I’m not. I’m disagreeing in how you’ve used it to imply the message that emotionally-felt abandonment is dismissed.
Yes, it is better to be alive than physically dead.
But please don’t imply our feelings of perceived abandonment are any less valid than those whose biological parents emotionally abandoned them. Either abandonment situation is pretty darn bad to have to discuss.
So… how many of your kids are adopted? Are you putting your money where your mouth is providing homes to all those babies who aren’t getting aborted? Have you ever seen a pregnant 16 year old, or young mom and made anything but the worst assumptions about her? Do you actually know anything about the long term wounds caused by placing a child?
Yes, adoption can be a great option. I placed a child 11yrs ago because I was 16 and had no support to keep my child. But until you have watched another woman leave the hospital with your baby, until you have seen your 4 yr old crawl up in that woman’s lap and call her mommy, please don’t talk about how wonderful adoption is. That’s not even mentioning how adoptees feel about the whole thing. I think abortion is an awful thing. But trying to legislate another person’s body and conscience is not the answer. Maybe “Christian charity” would help.
BTW, the choice to end a pregnancy is not at all connected to the decision not to parent.
NotCuteAnyMore at June 23, 2010 11:58 PM
NotCuteAnyMore at June 24, 2010 12:00 AM
NotCuteAnyMore at June 24, 2010 12:06 AM
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Your comments, as far as I know, were left completely intact, but your screen name was changed to reflect a screen name you used earlier on this thread, which was Momof3Girls.
Using multiple monikers, so as to add to confusion or to make it appear as if there are more commenting on the issue than there really are (which happens often here, and pro-aborts are the ones who do it), is not allowed. Thanks.
Are you putting your money where your mouth is providing homes to all those babies who aren’t getting aborted?
Are you providing homes to all the women who suffer from domestic violence? This is a tired argument which is used to somehow justify the murder of unborn children. There are 1.5M couples waiting to adopt every year and 2M abortions. Do the math.
I have several friends who have the $$ to adopt, and have. Many have adopted severely disabled children who are not of their race. They are all Christians. So, I’d say they have a lot of Christian charity.
No one is trying to legislate another person’s body. We’re trying to save the life of someone who has ZERO say in the matter.
All pregnancies end, birth mom. Abortion just ends the pregnancy by killing the child. I’d say that’s a decision NOT to parent.
“No one is trying to legislate another person’s body. We’re trying to save the life of someone who has ZERO say in the matter.”
And… adoptees DO have a choice in matter? *cue raised eyebrow here*
The comments I made were in reference to abortion, but thanks for quoting me completely out of context. It always facilitates such high-minded discussion.
Adoptees may not have a choice in the matter for who adopted them, but they are alive. (What is this whole mantra of “better off dead than adopted”? It’s complete insanity. You could probably all have a lovely tea with Jack Kevorkian.)
I believe adoptees should have every right, btw, to their own actual birth certificates. Closed adoptions, in my opinion, have been extremely harmful for many adoptees.
People need to listen to adoptees and understand that overall, we are not happy about having our identity completely wiped out upon adoption. It is not necessary. Legal guardianship, parental rights, fine, but why not let us keep our name. Why can’t our birth certificates be factual?
Mothers being pressured into handing over their babies should be aware of the reality of adoption, but I doubt anyone trying to talk someone out of an abortion would be an honest source. They are too desperate to bring another child into the world, even if it means killing it’s identity and it’s spirit.
Maybe it’s time to picket adoption agencies. I suppose we could even blend in with those already picketing Planned Parenthood.
“Adoptees may not have a choice in the matter for who adopted them, but they are alive”
Okay, I’ll go with that. But my question is: would you think that is an appropriate question to someone whose biological parents who emotionally abandoned them?
For example, if (such as commenter Elizabeth) someone’s parents constantly emotionally abandoned them and felt their career and free-style living was more important than the nurture of their children, would you feel it appropriate to point out how the child was at least alive?
If yes, why is that? If someone told me their parents had emotionally abandoned them throughout their child, I wouldn’t feel it appropriate to point out “Well at least you’re alive.” In fact, many people with common sense would slap me across the face because the child’s feelings are real and valid. Yet, this does not apply to adoptees…?
So why is it okay to point that out to adoptees who perceive emotional abandonment? Is this not invalidating what THEIR feelings are, as well?
What makes the difference between an invalidation of an adoptee who has spoken out about perceived abandonment, and the biological child who was emotionally abandoned?
P.S. I’m not saying abortion is better than being alive. I’m pointing about the invalidation.
I doubt anyone trying to talk someone out of an abortion would be an honest source. They are too desperate to bring another child into the world, even if it means killing it’s identity and it’s spirit.
Posted by: chloe at June 24, 2010 12:31 PM
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Ok, I hear you. Death is better. It’s happier. Let’s not work to change the laws about allowing adoptees to know their true identities. Instead, let’s kill them so those horrible, dishonest sources can’t kill their spirits. Even though by killing them physically, we’re taking all of that away from them. Let’s kill ’em so none of those greedy, evil adoption agencies can get them and those evil, wealthy, childless couples can’t steal them. If we can’t have them, no one can.
“If I can’t have you, no one can.” Very popular line amongst domestic abusers and those who kill the ones they supposedly love. It’s a means of controlling that other individual, even to the point of “offing” them. In my opinion, people who abort their children because they don’t want to place their children for adoption are essentially saying the same thing.
Mei Ling: if someone’s parents constantly emotionally abandoned them and felt their career and free-style living was more important than the nurture of their children, would you feel it appropriate to point out how the child was at least alive?
If yes, why is that? If someone told me their parents had emotionally abandoned them throughout their child, I wouldn’t feel it appropriate to point out “Well at least you’re alive.” In fact, many people with common sense would slap me across the face because the child’s feelings are real and valid. Yet, this does not apply to adoptees…?
I never said “AT LEAST they’re alive.” I said “they are alive.” They have the chance to live and make of their lives whatever they wish. There is not one single person on this earth who does not have a hardship or struggle to overcome.
And FYI, I AM an abandoned child. I WAS abandoned by my father, and to this day, he has no relationship with me, by his own choice. Does it hurt? Absolutely. Is there a huge part of me, and of my family, that I wonder about? Yes. But I can remain bitter and let it rule my life, or I can thank God (my Heavenly Father) that I AM ALIVE and that He planned me and gave me life, and loves me even if my biological dad is missing out by his own choice. I have had the opportunity to share hope and healing with others in my same situation, who have been abandoned. I am married to an amazing, loyal man, and we have 3 beautiful children. I HAVE LIFE. My mother could have aborted me when she found out my dad was unfaithful RIGHT BEFORE she found out she was pregnant. It was legal. And who would want to carry the child of a guy who had cheated? Right? Well, I was also HER baby, and she raised me by herself. She got pennies in child support. We scraped by. I have the most awesome mom in the world. She is so strong. I am so glad I’m alive. I have so much to be thankful for. So, no, we’re not “at least” alive, Mei Ling. We all need to count our blessings BECAUSE WE ARE ALIVE.
So why is it okay to point that out to adoptees who perceive emotional abandonment? Is this not invalidating what THEIR feelings are, as well?
I’m not invalidating anyone’s feelings. And I actually WAS emotionally and physically abandoned. If adoptees need help dealing with their feelings, counseling is available and should be sought. Help is available. But instead of continually grieving, one has to eventually move on and deal with the stages of grief. One has to choose to move beyond bitterness to forgiveness, or one will stagnate. One will express wishes to die, as some posters have done on this board.
What makes the difference between an invalidation of an adoptee who has spoken out about perceived abandonment, and the biological child who was emotionally abandoned?
One is perceived and one is real. But no one’s feelings are invalid, as I’ve said. Adoptees should have every opportunity to know their biological families. But adoptees also need to know that they are very much WANTED by their adoptive families, as I was aware that I was wanted by my mother, and I was wanted by my grandparents and family, even though my dad walked away and washed his hands of both my mother and me.
P.S. I’m not saying abortion is better than being alive. I’m pointing about the invalidation.
Posted by: Mei Ling at June 24, 2010 12:36 PM
It’s nice that *someone* on this board isn’t saying it. I’m getting tired of hearing it. People who think death is better really need to seek help, and I mean this sincerely.
A lot of things being said. A lot of accusations flying about what was said, what wasn’t said, what was implied….
This is the reason I’m here:
In most states, adoptees (and their descendants) do not have the right to the adoptee’s own original unaltered birth certificates . If they know the name(s) of their biological parents, it doesn’t matter. If their biological parents give them permission, it doesn’t matter. If their biological parents are deceased, it doesn’t matter. If the adoption happened 150 years ago, it doesn’t matter.
When a bill to restore the rights of adoptees to their own original birth certificates is introduced, one of the groups opposing it is the state Right-To-Life lobby or other Pro-Life group. This happens in almost every state where there is a pending bill. I say almost because the identity of every bill’s opponents is not public knowledge.
When a bill to restore the rights of adoptees to their own original birth certificates is in the news, many of the comments are one or more of the following:
“Adoptees should be grateful they weren’t aborted”
“This bill will cause more abortions and/or babies in dumpsters.”
“Your mother chose to give you life. Don’t you owe her privacy?”
I’m here to change minds. I don’t need anyone here to become Pro-Choice (that won’t happen), but I want the Pro-Lifers to get out of the way of the restoration of our rights. Pure and simple.
I’m sure many of you are active in your state RTL groups. Can we talk?
I would like to add a few adoption related resources –
http://www.adoptioninstitute.org/index.php
links to the Evan B. Donaldson Adoption Institute, a great source of stats and published studies about adoption.
“The Girls Who Went Away” by Ann Fessler is a riveting book containing interviews of women and girls who surrendered children during the decades before Roe v. Wade. Catholic Charities has courageously added this book to its recommended reading list, even though the stories expose some dark truths about the adoption agencies and maternity shelters of that era. The stories in the book and the comments here show just how traumatic the decision to surrender is.
“20 Things Adopted Kids Wish Their Adoptive Parents Knew” by Sherrie Eldridge.
“Searching for a Past : The Adopted Adult’s Unique Process of Finding Identity” by Jayne Schooler. There are many books of this type which analyze the psychological effects of being adopted.
Remember this ad from Catholic Vote?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIBZ-kJ6XAc
The Donaldson site uses this quote as a heading for their study about original birth certificate access:
“In all of us there is a hunger, marrow deep, to know our heritage, to know who we are and where we
have come from. Without this enriching knowledge, there is a hollow yearning; no matter what our
attainments in life, there is the most disquieting loneliness.”
— Alex Haley (Roots)
These comments have exposed something I would never have guessed existed even in my wildest imagination: Abortion DEATH would be preferred over living an adopted LIFE. After further consideration, I suppose depression caused by adoption grief or an abusive household could be strong enough to cause one to question the value of their life and feel some bitterness towards what is truly a life affirming institution. It is understandable if someone tries to blame adoption for all their troubles. The old, secretive, confidential adoption model is the source of many of the negative side effects. A therapist friend of mine calls the old adoption model a social experiment gone wrong. I have felt all the grief, abandonment and rejection being adopted can cause, but have always been thankful for my life. Thankful for the support structure that saved me. Thankful that society, through law, protected me. Does adoption create perfect families every time? Of course not. Family dysfunction can occur in any type of family. At times, the negative emotions can overwhelm, but there is a way out. Abortion has no way out. There is no way to restore a life lost to abortion. To the adpotees out there hurting, I understand the anger and the loneliness completely. As adults though, our lives are what we make of them. For what it is worth, my tough love advice is this – try your best to get unstuck, though it may take a while, and require lots of soul searching or counseling. Try to gain strength from your own personal story. Find a way to use it to have positive impact. Become an advocate for adoptee rights or tougher child abuse laws. Look for opportunities to support or mentor current victims of abuse.
God bless all of you.
Because you’re saying that emotionally perceived abandonment doesn’t count in comparison to physical abandonment (eg. your example of your biological parents emotionally abandoning you).
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Actually, NO, I did not say that. What I said was that adoptees are not the only people who suffer abandonment. By pointing out that there are various forms of abandonment it in no way invalidates any other form of abandonment.
I sincerely hope that at some point you can move beyond your obvious pain to actually read the words I have written. I have stated numerous times that your feelings of abandonment are valid, that there is a legitimate loss that needs to be grieved, and that there needs to be continuing work, research, and education done on how best to serve the needs of adoptees from birth through adulthood to help them meet every psychosocial stage as successfully as possible.
We are not the enemy here. First of all, we can’t do anything about the past practices of adoption, other than acknowledge that they existed and they were WRONG. For most of us, our only experience is with the vastly different open adoptions of today. While I’m sure there is still much work left to be done, I am unsure of why adoptees are not more proud of the changes that HAVE been made due to their efforts.
I’ll admit, I totally don’t get the birth certificate thing and the logic behind changing it in that way. Why there isn’t a separate adoption certificate or something of the sort I don’t know. The first time I held in my hands the birth certificate of an adult adoptee and saw that it had his adoptive parents names as birth parents I thought it was the stupidest thing I had ever seen. So did he.
I haven’t adopted the child of a teen mom, but I did babysit for one for free so she could go to high school. The child didn’t need adopting, so that would have been a dumb thing to offer… she needed babysitting. Oh, and when my niece on my husband’s side had a baby at 15, I not only provided a home for my great nephew for a year while she got her life together… I provided a home for her, too. He’s 17 now and captain of his basketball team. Oh, and I was a birth doula (for free) for the 15 year old daughter of a family at our church when she had her son. She is not only the proud mom of a great 3 year old son, she is an EMT finishing her pre-reqs to go to nursing school.
I would love to adopt and we were in the process of going through the system in Arizona to become a fost-adopt parent for medically fragile children (as a pediatric nurse married to an EMT, I think we could do a good job raising a child who truly HAS been abandoned due to his or her complex medical needs). We had an unexpected move to Idaho, so we get to start the process all over again. We’re in a rental house right now but by the time we get through the VERY lengthy process (it is NOT easy or quick to adopt a child from foster care… there are dozens of hurdles, especially as my husband is a British citizen, not an American citizen) we will be in a home of our own (we wanted to get to know the area before deciding where to buy).
Some of my friends growing up were in a family of… well, they were still open to adopting when my family moved, so I don’t know how many they ended up with, but there were 15 when I was in high school. Not a one was their biological child. They adopted older children, biracial children, medically needy children, sibling groups, and other “hard to place” children from the system. It was the most amazing family I have ever known. Yes, I have heard that one of the oldest boys DID have some issues about his adoption (he was adopted with his younger brother at the age of about 4 due to, I believe, being abandoned by their parents) but from what I understand, the rest of the adult children (several are older than I am and I’m 38) have done very well with their adoptions. Granted, those parents expected their children to have abandonment issues, so maybe they were better prepared to handle them than the adoptive family of a newborn who isn’t expecting it.
Gaye, if you want to get people to help you with what I think is a pretty legitimate request, don’t come on demonizing adoptive parents as cruel people who want nothing more than children to shove into freezers, acting as if there are no adoptive parents who work to be the best parents they can be for children whom they truly love.
jim sable, thank you! I was hoping you’d make a comment on this thread :)
Gaye and Mei Ling, I thank you too. Both of you have given me ideas that I want to further explore as a pro-life, pro-open-record adoptee. I haven’t been a prolifer that long, and I’ve been wondering what I have to contribute, and you’ve both been more helpful than you can possibly know. Peace :)
“Gaye, if you want to get people to help you with what I think is a pretty legitimate request, don’t come on demonizing adoptive parents as cruel people who want nothing more than children to shove into freezers, acting as if there are no adoptive parents who work to be the best parents they can be for children whom they truly love.”
I was merely providing examples for the poster who said she had not (in her professional life) seen a child abused by an adoptive parent.
I never said that *I* was abused by my aparents. I’ve had issues with my amom, but they certainly did not rise to the level of “I wish I had been aborted”. But I do know people for whom that is a true statement.
Can we at least agree that adoptive parents, because they *should* go through a screening process, and because they represent the alleged “better life” and “best interests of the child”, *should* be held to a higher standard?
Most of them are great parents, just as most biological parents are great parents. I’d just like to see more transparency and better (not necessarily more) screening.
Can we agree that closed adoptions may leave a mother wondering if HER child was the “one in the newspaper”? How does a mother find closure in a closed adoption? It took one woman I know 30+ years to confirm that her child had died at 15 months of age.
I was that poster. How precisely do your examples change my experiences?
Here is my original statement:
“As a pediatric emergency and trauma nurse, (and I know this is very unscientific, but it is my experience in the trenches) I have not witnessed any cases of adopted children brought in as child abuse cases. I have, however, had to deal with several dozen abuse cases of children by their biological parents.
Posted by: Elisabeth at June 22, 2010 8:16 PM”
This was in response to Mara’s posts about being abused to show that while it happens, it is because abuse happens. If you would read people’s posts in their entirety instead of just latching on to things you think you can rebut to prove how bad adoption is, you would see that no one here claimed abusive adoptive parents don’t exist. You were demonstrating what was already acknowledged: crappy parents exist. Some of them adopted.
In addition, not a single person here has advocated for closed adoptions. Again, read my posts in their entirety and you will find that I advocate for a VERY open adoption, one which allows the birth mothers a great deal of information about how their children are doing.
It’s easy… just scroll up and read full posts. Mine are marked “Elisabeth”.
If you want to gain allies in your stated goals, try engaging in conversation instead of drive by rebuttals to straw men. They will get you much further.
Go ahead and read…. I’ll be around!
Agreed. We work together, not against each other.
With 130+ comments, it’s hard to keep comments straight, particularly where people are responding to others’ comments. Lots of stuff to keep in context. This isn’t the only place that I comment. Contrary to what my husband thinks, I even have a LIFE off the Internet.
In return – I would appreciate it if I was not called “sick and twisted” just because I believe that there are SOME legitimate reasons for wanting an abortion. We can disagree as to what those reasons might be, but calling my (and others’) mental health into question is not going to win the collective group here many sympathizers.
Whatever.
Shall we continue?
Birthmom, you say that we can’t speak out about abortion because we aren’t putting our money where our mouth is and adopting every unplanned baby. Then those who HAVE adopted get lambasted for adopting and “stealing” other women’s babies. We are damned by you if we do or don’t. It makes no difference…
As painful as it was to see your 4 year old climb up on another woman’s lap and call her mommy (and I don’t doubt for a second that that ripped your heart out) at least that 4 year old could climb on SOMEONE’S lap and be loved. Would you look at her and think “It’d be better for ME if you were dead.”
The choice is between letting a child live or killing that child. No one is claiming adoption is the best solution in all or even most cases, but abortion is the worst option of all! No one should even get to consider killing another human being based on convenience or finances. Thats sick.
If you are going to put words in quotes, make sure they are quotes. Especially if you are going to make it look like they are a quote from me….
Because I didn’t say that and a quick shift-F of the page to check doesn’t find those words except where you wrote them. I did say that I couldn’t understand the mind set of abortion over adoption… I can’t. But, that’s how I see things. It isn’t a slam against anyone, it is a statement of what I can and cannot understand….
As a night shift nurse and mother of 7, trust me, I have a life off of the internet as well. I still make sure to scroll up and check what I have and haven’t said and for other posts by the person I am responding to. It makes the conversation a conversation…. and doesn’t take that long.
Honestly, if we believe, as we do, that abortion is the murder of an innocent human being, we aren’t going to feel that there is a legitimate reason for an abortion. That being the case, why not focus on those issues we do have in common?
From Ninek:
“If you are pro-choice, you are sick and you are trying to drag more people into your illness.”
No, he/she did not call me “twisted” and my comment was addressed to the “collective group”.
From Elizabeth:
“That being the case, why not focus on those issues we do have in common?”
Agreed.
Are there any open questions you have for me or can we just bury the hatchet now?
Yes. What states have pending legislation and what help do you need?
I have a question too, Gaye. Which site do you consider to have the most current updates for open records initiatives? I used to rely on Bastard Nation but some sections of that site look pretty outdated.
Thanks in advance.
Fed Up –
You might want to check this web site if you have not seen it before.
http://www.americanadoptioncongress.org/state.php
Thank you, jim. I appreciate the recommendation. I visited that site yesterday but without dates specifying when the information was posted, I wasn’t sure how current the state-based info was.
In keeping with the discussion on this thread about adoptee identity development, the site jim suggested has an interesting chart which adapts Erickson’s developmental tasks to adoptees.
http://www.americanadoptioncongress.org/grief_brodzinsky_article.php
Thank you. I appreciate the offer of help. As for what states have pending bills, the site that Jim posted has the most up-to-date info overall.
For the absolute up-to-the-minute info, you would need to contact the person/group listed and offer help directly to them. The sessions are winding down so not much is happening right now. Two bills that we THOUGHT would go somewhere got pulled off the table at the last minute – this happened two days ago.
A little glossary:
OBC = original birth certificate
Contact Preference = (usually) non-binding form filed by birthparent(s) specifying their preference for contact, contact through an intermediary or no contact.
Disclosure Veto = form filed by birthparent(s) which blacks out names on the OBC or prevents adoptee from getting the OBC at all.
Contact Veto = legally binding agreement where adoptee will not contact birthparent(s) or, in some cases, other members of birth family. Penalties can be severe – Class A Misdemeanor (one step below felony).
Tiered Access (aka Black Hole)= the law treats adoptees differently depending upon their date of birth or date of adoption. Generally, all adoptees born before the original sealing law get OBCs without restrictions, adoptees born after the effective date of the new law get OBCs subject to Disclosure Vetoes and the ones in between fall into a black hole of NO access without a court order.
Confidential Intermediary = a person authorized by the state to view the sealed record and attempt to contact “the sought-after-party” (generally the birthparent, but may be the adoptee). If the sought-after-party consents, contact information is exchanged. If the sought-after-party does not consent, that’s it.
Mutual Consent Registry (aka passive registry)= Adoptees, birthparents, birth siblings can register with the state or a private registry and wait for a match. Typical example is NY’s registry which has been in existence since 1984. Over 90% of registrants have not been matched.
Non-Identifying Information (aka Non-ID)= information about the birthparent(s) that, in theory, would not allow the adoptee to identify them. Race/ethnicity, religion, age at adoptee’s birth, occupation, education, similar info on birthparent’s parents, siblings and other children. Private adoptions tend to have the least amount of info – typical: “mother 21 and Catholic, no information on father”. New York State considers the name of the hospital to be identifying information. If it’s not on the amended birth certificate, the adoptee is not allowed to know.
The states:
New York: Clean bill (unrestricted access). Contact preference, voluntary medical history. Half of the Assembly are SPONSORS, majority of Senate in support, yet this bill has NEVER (20+ years!) been allowed out of committee for a floor vote. We thought it might go somewhere (even as late as last week). Two days ago it got shelved because someone in NYC Mayor Bloomberg’s office wrote a letter. I still don’t have the details.
New Jersey: Disclosure veto, mandatory medical history, contact preference (not veto) prospectively. Passed the Senate, passed out of committee in the Assembly. At the last minute the sponsor decided it didn’t have guaranteed support from the governor, so it’s been shelved until fall. A lot of news coverage including letters to the editor (both for and against). Opponents include NJ RTL (Marie Tasy), NJ Catholic Conference (Pat Brannigan), NJ Bar Association (Tom Snyder), ACLU, PP. Five hours of testimony available online.
Missouri: Confidential Intermediary (CI) wording was included in an Omnibus Bill. At the last minute, all trace of adoption reform disappeared from the bill.
Pennsylvania: Clean bill going nowhere.
Michigan: Attempts to correct Black Hole have been stymied by opposition from NOW, adoption attorneys, etc.
South Dakota: Clean bill killed by the South Dakota Eagle Forum. They refuse to talk to South Dakota SEAL (adoptee group).
California: Very strange bill which confused even the “experts” among us. Was pulled earlier this year.
Other states have bills but I haven’t heard anything about them as they’ve gone nowhere.
A note on Bastard Nation: They actively oppose any bill that does not have unrestricted access. They accept contact preferences (but not contact vetoes) but oppose mandatory medical history.
Cludia you are wacked ,comparing metaphorical death to killing a baby,so i should be dead rather than my birthmom dealing with the life she brought into this world,grrrrr u femenists have no compassion!!!!!!!grrrrrrrrrrr
What a woman decides to do with HER body is HER business.
If you love adoption so much then why don’t YOU carry a child for 9 months then get conned out of it with promises of an open adoption (only to get cut out of the picture after your duty if incubator for those oh so perfect adopters is complete). Let’s see how you feel about the “loving, selfess” institution of adoption then.
Adoption serves noone but the selfish adoptive parents who are looking for a band aid for their infertility.
I also love how people push this “loving option” so much, then treat the NATURAL mother less than “loving” when she and HER child want to reunite. Hypocrites.
Instead of being loving and supportive when “your child” wants to know their roots and heritage you are threatened and jealous of the natural bond between mother and child and do everything you can to sabotage that relationship, so not to ruin YOUR fantasy of being a “forever family”.
All of you adoption pushers who think you have the right to tell someone what to do with her body make me sick to my stomach. Get a life and out of the lives you have NO business imposing yourselves in. PLEASE.
Yes, adoption DOES kill the mother. Lose one of your own children to the lie that is adoption then come back here with your biased opinions that you think you have the right to post here.
Patricia, my sister has four children (they are biologically hers) and is looking to adopt. Adoption isn’t a band aid for infertility.
No woman should be “conned” out of her child. I’m sorry if you were. It seems like you have a lot of heartache you’re still working through. Though adoption isn’t the answer in every case, it isn’t always a terrible, mean thing either. Sometimes adoption is right sometimes it isn’t. Every situation is different just as every woman is different.
Patricia,
I’m so sorry your adoption plan hasn’t worked out well for you.
Hey, I saw an “Abortion/Adoption” sign in a car window just like the graphic at the top of this thread! I’m not sure if it was purchased or homemade.
I didn’t mean to imply that there is any thing wrong with speaking out against abortion. Personally, I think the world would be a better place if another abortion never happened. I suppose I have a bit of a knee jerk reaction because of some absolutist speech I have encountered before. I don’t think outlawing abortions and encouraging moms to place their babies is the best answer. I do think there are serious faults to proposing adoption as a great alternative to abortion. I resent the implication that adoption is a win/win situation. There are unaddressed problems on ALL sides of the issue. I certainly don’t think demonizing adoptive parents gets us anywhere, though agencies could use a lot more scrutiny.
I truly believe an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. That includes comprehensive sex ed, and better support for mom’s who choose to parent, so the next generation doesn’t find themselves in the same boat.
BTW: Thank you Elisabeth. That’s the kind of support I would like to see more of. I know that as a nation of compassionate people we could do so much more. Unfortunately, young pregnant women and mothers are often socially ostracized and told(overtly or more subtly) by everyone around them that their child is doomed, and would be better off with whatever parents an agency can find. If I had my choices to make over, I would have kept my daughter, instead of believing that I was broken.