Liberal feminists miffed that police chief suggested prevention tips against date rape
A startling statistic was presented at the August 2 Dallas Public Safety Committee meeting: Rape there is up 25.3% over last year.
Police Chief David Brown (pictured right) was pressed on this, and here was how blogger Andrea Grimes of the Dallas Observer interpreted his remarks:
But Ms. Jasso read my mind, asking the Chief to explain the… increase…. is it that victims are reporting rapes more frequently, or that more rapes are happening? The answer, unfortunately: More rapes, says Chief Brown, specifically date rapes. And we all know what the solution to date rape is: getting women to stop drinking, because that is what causes date rape. Not dudes raping women, but women drinking.
Blogger Shelby Knox piled on:
Thank you law enforcement official charged with preventing or at least condemning crimes like, oh say, RAPE for suggesting that if I get raped it’s my fault…. Guess I should leave the short skirt at home too, right Chief?
Men of Dallas: Your Chief of Police doesn’t seem to think you possess enough self-control or self-respect to resist violating a woman who’s been drinking. Be offended by this and be part of the solution. You watch your friends and remind them that if a woman is too drunk to say ‘yes,’ she’s too drunk for sex.
Women of Dallas: Rape is rape is rape. If you were raped while drunk it doesn’t make it your fault or any less of a crime.
And Bethany Anderson at D magazine added:
So date rape solved? Don’t drink if you have two x chromosomes. Forget the fact that the drunk cannot consent to sex, and nonconsensual sex = rape.
I’m sure glad we cleared that up.
But wait a minute. Would a high profile modern man be so stupid as to place the fault of rape on women? Scott Goldstein at the Dallas Morning News was the 1st to challenge the stereotypical and stereotypist feminist mob:
Some writers at a couple of local Dallas publications are accusing… Brown of essentially blaming rape victims in comments he made during a City Hall committee meeting yesterday….
No need for me to judge whether the folks at D magazine and the Dallas Observer are being unfairly provocative. You be the judge. Watch the video clip and tell us what you think.
Yes…
Liberal feminists are often caricatured as over reactive, and here was just another example of the Birkenstock fitting.
Fortunately, and surprisingly given this touchy subject, there was immediate blowback. Goldstein wrote in follow-up:
Brown… was unaware of the way some bloggers are portraying [his] comments…. I filled him in and asked him to respond.
“I absolutely did not state that the victims are to blame for sexual assault,” Brown said. He said that he was explaining yesterday that a DPD analysis of the increase shows that many of the cases involve alcohol and date rape.
“I do want to continue to emphasize that women be aware of their surroundings and, when possible, travel in pairs or in a group to enhance security around sexual assault,” Brown said.
Speaking specifically about the way some have characterized his comments, Brown said:
“I just think it’s irresponsible for bloggers to put inaccurate information in reports to excite or to create this uproar that is not consistent with my statement,” Brown said. “They’re being irresponsible. This is a very sensitive issue and we really do want to make victims aware of how to protect themselves from these predators.”
Commenters proceeded to take Anderson to task…
- “I know it’s cool to suddenly be playing gender-centric neo-1970s games regarding what people actually say vs. how others claim they spoke… or even to interpret what they meant. But to me, hanging people out to dry, with an agitator’s agenda being the motivation to twist and shout, that’s every bit as shocking as the Chief’s ‘summarized’ comment in question here….”
- “Guess i’ll be the contrarian here, i don’t see anything about drinking causing rape in his quote. What i see is a suggestion for friends to keep an eye on each other when they’re out partying, something guys do all the time. If you’re friend isn’t acting herself, maybe it’s because something was slipped in her drink, a friend would probably be able to notice something like that if they were keeping an eye on one another when out partying.”
… to such an extent Anderson had to perform a mea culpa, “of sorts”…
After listening to the video of Chief Brown, and reviewing his statement about how his comments were taken, I’ve done some thinking.
Yes, you get more of an idea of what he was getting at, and it confirmed my gut reaction: He meant well….
If I had been at the meeting, or watching it, I admit, my response would’ve been more measured…
I do think that the resulting discussion was, by the whole, a good leaping off point for exactly the sort of thing Chief Brown said we needed – more preventive measures….
Really? What Brown was saying in the first place?
I know it’s verboten to say women, particularly young women in bars, ask for it when they get raped.
But as we saw in this instance, it’s to the point where liberal feminists aren’t even allowing women to be educated on common sense preventative measures. Why is there a 25% increase in rape this past year in Dallas? Is it that there are more perpetrators on the street or more naive victims?
I think it’s a combination of both, the former thanks in large part to another verboten topic, increasing access to porn, and the latter because liberal feminists have created an environment that makes it nearly impossible to discuss preemptive measures women can take to stop it.
I look back to many instances when I did stupid things that opened the door to crime, such as picking up male hitchhikers.
As recently as last week I walked through a large, dark parking lot at O’Hare Airport alone to my car at 11:30p at night. I should have asked Security for a ride.
Liberal feminists don’t like it, but the simple fact is the bar scene, particularly late at night, isn’t necessarily safe. There aren’t a lot of date rapes in church.
[Photo via CBS News]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Hi ProChoiceGal!
I do think that the feminist bloggers had good intentions on this. Blaming the victim is wrong. Advice like “don’t wear provocative clothing” sometimes makes people forget that rape can happen to anyone. Rape is about the lust for power, not the lust for sex. I’ve even read a story about old ladies being raped in a nursing home!
THAT SAID: advising people to take obvious precautions– like keeping an eye on their drink, going out in groups, not walking alone at night, etc.– is not sexist. It’s no different than advising people to not have valuables visible in their car, or to install a home security system. It does not in any way mean that victims are responsible for the actions of rapists or thieves.
Liberal feminists “create a climate” whereby educating a woman on preventative common-sense measures such as attitude, dress, and social settings is to invite criticism of the harshest kind. And in the end, THAT is harmful to women.
Predators CHOOSE their targets and bitter, liberal feminists don’t want to hear about how not to be chosen because to do so sheds light on the broken, toxic, contraceptive culture that has come out of the Sexual Revolution.
I think rape is sometimes about sex. Call me crazy. Women, take care of yourselves!
Predators, such as lions, look for the easiest possible target. Those are the young, the old, the ill. They size up a herd and calculate which member will be easiest to separate from the rest, and present the least probability of injury to the predator through resistance.
Predatory humans do much the same. They look for the loners, the inebriated when in bars and social clubs. Rapists have a hatred and anger directed against women. It is undeniable that some rapists target women who dress revealingly to “teach them a lesson”, such as their twisted cognitions are. Many see drunk and alone women as easy targets, because in truth they are.
Being drunk, alone, and scantily clad are NOT “asking for it”. But they do place one in a precarious position, given the reality of predators on the prowl. Women ought to be able to get drunk, be alone, and dress as they please without fear of rape.
Where the feminists go wrong is attacking people such as Chief Brown for trying to build a safe bridge between what is, and what ought to be.
Why yes Shelby Knox you should leave your short skirt at home. lol Out of control drinking plus a miniskirt equals possible target. Hmmmmm….. thought that was common sense.
How can anyone think that the Chief was “blaming” women? If you refuse to wear a seatbelt and a drunk driver hits you and you fly out of your car and die, is it YOUR fault? No. But you could have kept yourself safe if you had taken precautions! Same thing here…no woman is “asking” to be raped but does that mean that women should act in ways that put themselves in danger? Or put themselves in situations that could open them up to rape? No! THAT is the point, that women should be wise and make wise decisions for their own safety. Cops can’t usually PREVENT crime. You have to be the one to protect yourself.
I for one choose to be safe and when I was young and single and on the town I made decisions to protect myself. Especially since I went out with a girlfriend when I was 22 and my friend disappeared. I had taken ONE sip out of my drink and I felt drunk and woozy. I knew something had been slipped into my drink. This guy who had been chatting with me then pushed me up against the wall felt me up and tried to kiss me while I pushed him away and said “Go away!” over and over. The bouncers sat there and laughed. I stumbled out of the bar and down the street with this guy trailing me. My husband who was my boyfriend at the time did sound at a neighboring club and stepped outside just in time to see what was happening and rescued me. I never put myself in a situation like that again, losing track of my friends, leaving my drink unattended….if I had been raped it wouldn’t have been MY fault but yet I wasn’t protecting myself. I’m telling women is it better to whine over what you can’t control (rapists) or to control what you can (you). Who wants to be raped just to prove a point? There are always going to be rapists. You can’t “cure” that or control it. All you can do is choose to protect yourself.
Cranky – astute observation. You completed a thought I was germinating very well, better than I could have.
The Chief got it only part right. Many rapes happen when one or both parties are impaired through use of drugs (and alcohol is a drug). However, he does sound like he’s blaming the victim, which is soooo not cool!
Explain this to me…if a woman making poor decisions while drunk are not “her fault” then why does this logic not transfer over to a man who makes poor decisons while drunk? She can get drunk, throw herself at a guy & have sex, but according to the blogger, sex while drunk (or impaired) cannot be consentual. But if the guy is drunk & a woman is throwing herself at him, he is suppose to bear the entire responsibility for any sex that may take place? He, although drunk & impaired, is responsible for the situation, but she hold zero responisbility what-so-ever despite her actions? If both male & female drink, get drunk, & drive, both are equally responsible for the results. But if they drink, get drunk, & have sex, then the man is a rapist & the woman is his victim? Sorta reminds me of the feminist logic regarding fertility. If a couple has sex, the woman has all the rights & the man has zero. If she gets pregnant when she didn’t want to, she is a victim of his sperm. If woman wants the baby, the guy is on the hook for child support…despite the intentions of the sexual act. He didn’t “choose” for her to get pregnant or to stay pregnant, but he still has to pay. Now, if she does not want the baby, she can abort. He is off the financial hook. But if he wants the baby, she can still abort…tough luck buddy. This “logic” isn’t about equality, it is about power.
#2…we are not suppose to question women, their decisions & choices. She wants to have an abortion? What business is it of yours to question her? To offer her options or information (she aleady knows it all anyway)? Or to seek out her motve…stop trying to change her mind! We are not suppose to question her sexual practices…who she has sex with, how often & at what age she starts or the age of her partners. We are not really suppose to care if she goes out and parties…everyone does it! It is a right of passage. Everyone exeriments. She is just doing what the guys have done for generations…sowing her wild oats as it were. If her partying doesn’t effect you, butt out! Her drinking, recreational drug use, & sexual activity doesn’t concern you, so stop pushing your morality on her. She is just having some fun! So here we have a girl drinking at a party…dressing the way trendy girls dress & doing what girls do…partying. And what often goes along with partying? Hooking up. A one night stand with some guy she thinks is hot at the time. They are both drinking & having fun. They are making out, it gets heavier & leads to sex. The next day, she regrets her decision & now the fun events of the previous night are rape…he is a rapist & she is the victim because she was impaired. Now, if we are not suppose to question women & their decision making, why should we question the decisions of a female who is drinking at a party & who decides she wants to have sex with some guy she met? How is the equallyimpaired guy suppose to know if she is looking for a fun night or will cry rape in the morning? I’m sorry,but actions have consequences & going to parties with binge drinking, possibly other substances, a highly sexually charged atmosphere, strangers, and women/men looking to hook-up is a recipe for disaster. No one is telling these women not to wear short skirts or to drink…but don’t be surprised when you come onto a guy that he takes you up on your offer, particularly if he is drunk too!
1. I did not hear him in ANY way blame the victim. What he did was acknowledge there was a problem and state that when they did an analysis of the crimes what the majority had in common was an acquaintance (of however short a time period), and alcohol. I thought it was just common sense for women to watch each other’s back when in a possibly dangerous situation. In a perfect world, women could walk around NAKED and drunk and not a single man would harm them. As we live in THIS world, common sense precautions ought to be, you know, COMMON.
2. The bloggers overreaction was either dumb (if real) or had malicious intent.
3. Did you lovely ladies know that in many parts of Europe, the Muslim males feel that if they do not have a hijab or burka on, they are ASKING to be raped and they feel no compunction about raping any woman who “advertises” in such a fashion even if she is otherwise completely modestly attired and completely sober. You think this is bad? Just wait until the U.S. has Sharia law…. don’t wear a hijab, get raped, and then you can be stoned for putting yourself in that situation!
While this particular cop was not blaming victims for the actions of their attackers, there is a very poisonous “blame the victim” mentality in Western culture that routinely results in rapists being declared “not guilty” of raping a woman “because she has rape fantasies and reads about that on the internet.” (Yes, an actual rapist actually got off on that defense. IIRC, it was in Britain about…a year and a half ago, I think.) Since apparently that means you’re totally asking for it.
The truth is, there are steps you can take to reduce your risk of being targeted. There is nothing you can do to eliminate that risk. Very old women who never drink or wear short skirts are raped. Women wearing sweatshirts and long pants are raped. Babies are raped. Men are raped. There is no demographic in which rapes do not occur. There is no eliminating the risk.
I don’t understand the “blame the victim” mentality, though, even if the woman in question is so drunk she passed out on a man’s bed. If a homeowner leaves their house unlocked and they are robbed, it’s not the homeowner’s fault for leaving their house unlocked. They weren’t “asking for it.” It’s the robber’s fault for stealing their things. If a woman goes out to a bar and gets falling down drunk and is raped, it’s not her fault for being drunk. It’s the rapist’s fault for raping her. Always.
Gerard Nadal, your comment reminds me of an anti-rape group I belonged to in college. We took our name, “No Zebras,” from the fact that a zebra herd will isolate the weakest zebras, effectively giving them to the lions.
Why yes Shelby Knox you should leave your short skirt at home. lol Out of control drinking plus a miniskirt equals possible target. Hmmmmm….. thought that was common sense.
Well, though women can wear whatever they want to wear (it’s a free country, no Shariah law yet!), one has to question the wisdom of certain wardrobe choices. It seems that so many women today want to “look hot” but in their desire to turn on the opposite sex by wearing the most revealing clothing possible, they forget that sometimes doing so attracts the wrong kind of men. Sometimes those men are just sleazeballs looking for a one-night stand, and sometimes they’re far more dangerous.
No woman explicitly invites rape, and if a woman says “no” to any unwelcome advance, she should be listened to!! But this police officer isn’t stupid. He’s right in the fact that alcohol complicates this issue. It blurs the lines of judgment VERY often. Date rape drugs can even be slipped into non-alcoholic drinks, and women should be on their guard at all times. This isn’t anti-feminist, for God’s sake. It’s called using your brain.
Liberal feminists don’t like it, but the simple fact is the bar scene, particularly late at night, isn’t necessarily safe. There aren’t a lot of date rapes in church.
I loved this ending. Another reason to spend more time at church and even less in the bars and clubs!
“First rancid quote of the day. If you use birth control, you’re open game for rape.”
Ashley, give me a break. You’re no more interested in what someone actually said than those liberal feminists bloggers who thought they’d skewer the police chief in the latest round of man-bashing. It’s pathetic.
There are things women can do to protect themselves from being assaulted, and common sense dictates that if you’re in a bar full of strangers, getting yourself wasted isn’t very smart. But liberal feminists can’t handle common sense. They just want free, unrestricted, no-consequences sex for all!!
“I know it’s verboten to say women, particularly young women in bars, ask for it when they get raped.”
Well. It’s not just verboten, it’s wrong.
I don’t think that what the police chief said was wrong as far as it went — it’s good to know how to protect yourself — but the problem is that he didn’t have anything to say to the *offenders*. “We’re needing to create a message to the victims of these kind of crimes.” OK, sure, but what about sending a message to men who rape? What about a public education campaign that tells men “No means no”? If your whole rape-prevention strategy is to make women restrict their activities more — that may not be victim-blaming precisely, but it’s putting the entire burden on women, which is wrong.
I’d ask what any of this has to do with a “contraceptive culture”, but I’m pretty sure I don’t want to know.
“There aren’t a lot of date rapes in church.”
Churches aren’t exactly sex-crime-free zones, as I thought we all knew by now.
[Cranky Catholic] “Predators CHOOSE their targets and bitter, liberal feminists don’t want to hear about how not to be chosen because to do so sheds light on the broken, toxic, contraceptive culture that has come out of the Sexual Revolution.”
[Ashley] “First rancid quote of the day. If you use birth control, you’re open game for rape.”
Ashley, I agree with the above; you have more talent for misunderstanding than almost anyone I have ever known.
Your attempt an an interpretation is sheer nonsense to begin with. Do you really think very many rapists would even know whether the woman they are planning to rape is on birth control?
What Cranky Catholic meant here (I think) is that contraception has really changed the whole mentality of society. Contraception has helped remove men’s ability to see women as people in their own right. Removing the possibility of new life makes nonsense of the idea of commitment. It encourages a man to look on a woman not as the mother of their future children, but as a freely available sex toy. (And please spar me your spiel about “women are not incubators.” That is not what I meant).
The contraceptive mentality in our culture also encourages women to think the same way and not respect themselves and the gift of their sexuality. What has society come to when even the idea of telling women doing something to protect themselves, protect their bodies, protect their dignity is considered an insult to them?
This doesn’t mean married women shouldn’t plan their families, or that “the Catholic Church only wants women barefoot and pregnant,” or whatever nonsense you are going to try and come up with. What CC was trying to say is that the contraceptive culture is creating deeper problems that feminists are ignoring or denying.
The contraceptive culture is a good part of the reason why after around 40 years of so-called women’s liberation, there is so little respect for women in our society, and why rape is, if anything, on the rise.
(By the way, Ashley, I can’t help wondering why you never address anyone here by name. Most people here call you by your name. Do you really have that much trouble seeing us prolifers as human beings?)
What about a public education campaign that tells men “No means no”?
I’d like to take it one step further and see a “yes means yes” campaign. That is to say, “no means no” seems to imply that consent is present until explicitly denied. You go until someone says stop. Whereas focusing on the “yes” implies that consent only exists where explicitly communicated. You don’t start until someone says go. The assumption that if a woman is in a bar having a drink, she’s looking for a hook-up unless she actively communicates otherwise; that if a woman kisses a man she is looking for sex unless she makes him stop; that if a woman wears a certain dress it’s specifically to attract a man, unless she calls for help when he touches her - that kind of thinking has to go. I would like a culture that assumes lack of consent until consent is explicitly given.
“Contraception has helped remove men’s ability to see women as people in their own right.”
When was this idyllic time pre-contraception when men in general saw women as people in their own right? Was that when marital rape was legal? When women weren’t allowed to vote? When women were expected to get just enough education to attract men and raise children, but couldn’t attend universities? When women couldn’t open bank accounts or get credit cards without their husbands’ permission? When a woman ceased to exist as a legal entity when she got married?
I’ll take my status as a woman now over any time in history, thanks.
Good points, Alexandra.
Lori,
Great response to Ashley. If I may add a little from the male perspective…
Testosterone contributes to the voracious sexual appetites of young men. It is just the way we are built biologically. We start there. Of course women want to be respected and honored. But Cranky Catholic gets to the difficulty in realizing those fondest hopes and expectations of women.
Contraception and abortion cut the leash that has traditionally restrained most men from acting on their every sexual impulse: the consequence of having to support a mother and child. Boys want fun, but not manly responsibility. Pope Paul VI warned in Humanae Vitae what would happen to the relationship between men and women when the inseparable unitive and procreative dimensions of sex were artificially separated:
Bi–hes and Ho’s as the Hip Hop culture has referred to women for a quarter of a century.
I’ve written of this experience before, but one day when I was working at Covenant House (a homeless shelter for teens in NY’s Times Square), I covered for the older male unit one day. A young black man, about 18 years old, came into my office to talk to another resident:
“Yo B! You know that bi–ch with the dreds? Yo B, I took her to the third floor at PA (the Port Authority Bus Terminal) and dogged that bi–ch! I dogged that bi–ch bro!!!”
Not a shred of human reference either to the young lady or to the action. All references were canine in nature. I’ll never forget it. That’s where we are. That’s the logical end of contraception and abortion–humans running about paying their canine courtesies to one another.
Men suffer terribly from this as well. Contraception and abortion have allowed men to practice a very juvenile expression of sexuality, one alien to its marital counterpart. These twin abominations have extended adolescence indefinitely for men. “Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free?” is a sentiment I have heard from guys more times than I can count. Such extended adolescence runs up hard against the normal developmental longing for intimacy and belonging to another, which leads to massive frustration in guys whose development has been derailed by the myth of consequence-free sex.
Women suffer from the cultivated notion that their bodies are mere playgrounds for little boys in men’s bodies. It is precisely the openness to and acceptance of the consequence of sexual union–new life–that perfects sexual intimacy. In men whose upbringing has properly disposed them, the experience of a wife’s pregnancy, childbirth, and post-partum recovery is an awe-inspiring experience that inspires a whole new dimension of love and respect for women, for their bodies, for what they embrace, for the fruitfulness of their union with us. Contraception and abortion degrade that predisposition in far too many men who have been conditioned to resent that which might thwart their immediate desires.
Also, Ashley–I join Lori in begging you to spare me the “women are not incubators” whine. That’s how you actually view women, which is why you embrace contraception and abortion. Women who actually follow their Christian faith by marrying and having children see themselves as fully embracing and realizing the entirety of their womanly sexual potential and nature.
Alexandra,
What a brilliant observation with “yes means yes”!! That really gets to the heart of the matter in ways “No means no” never could.
I explained to my children (who are adults now) “if you are stupid enough to get wasted to the “extent you don’t know what is going on or what you are doing then you are putting yourself at risk for all kinds of stupid, dangerous stuff to happen to you or for you to be accused of stuff you didn’t do. Think about it and don’t be stupid”.
No women or men (for that matter) DON’T ask to be raped but getting wasted is one of the quickest tickets to opening the door for stupid stuff to happen to you. I cannot tell you how many young people I have heard say “I wouldn’t have done that if I had not been drunk”. Alcohol and drug use make you 3-5 times more likely to be involved in sexual activity.
Maybe the the feministas in Dallas county should import some them barbed condoms and distribute at least 3 per woman and two per man to cover all the bases so to speak.
If a lathered up drunk woman is hitting on a sober dude and he gives in to her advances is he now a ‘sexual predator’?
What if the woman is sober and the dude is drunk? Is the woman then the ‘sexual predator’?
These are not just hypotheticals. I am speaking from personal experience. I have been hit on by drunk women.
The playing field is a lot less uniform than it used to be.
Then there is the old axiom: “The gals [and the guys] all get prettier at closing time.’
The worst part is waking up the next morning with a hangover, but that pain in your head is nothing compared to the realization you exchanged bodily fluids with ‘THAT’.
Ewwww!
The last thing you want to do is bring attention to yourself by holllerin ‘rape’.
You just want to come up with a plan to make your get away without waking the ‘toad’ who is sleeping right where ‘prince charming/sleeping beauty’ was last night.
Sobriety is no guarantee against indulgences of the flesh, but it sure reduces the probability.
Save inebriation til after marriage or maybe just abstain, period.
Feminists also don’t want to face another bitter component to sexual assault: women’s disregard for each other. More than once I have seen girls abandon their friends for a cute guy or out of ignorance or selfishness. Even when I was in college (you know back in those dinosaur times) young women often did not look out for each other, but instead competed with each other. Girls who abandon their drunk friend at a party are part of the problem, even though they blame the drunk friend for being annoying. Yes, your drunk friend is annoying, but so are YOU when you have one too many.
For a thread where we all say it’s wrong to blame rape victims, I sure am seeing a lot of slamming of women’s behavior and sexuality.
You cannot blame the victim for the actions of another person ever! If I left 10,000 bucks in my car on the passenger seat it is protected by law, if someone steals it, I will not be the one getting charged with a crime, even if leaving it in the car was very stupid.
I do however; think that what this cop said was taken out of context by feminists who are a bit touchy on that subject. I do think this cop was just trying to tell women how to protect themselves, but people always go overboard about subjects they hold close to their heart even if they are wrong. Kind of like saying anything about catholic priests and children on this site…
As I have stated on this blog before I have a 16yo daughter and what I tell her about rape and drinking has nothing to do with how much a woman has to drink or even if it’s a alcoholic beverage or not. I tell her you can be raped just as easy drinking a Shirley Temple. Date rape drugs do not need alcohol to be effective. I tell her to keep an eye on her own drink as this is how her aunt “my sister-in-law” was raped 6 years back while on a non-alcoholic date.
I think both sides are right in this argument. A woman needs to be vigilant with her own safety but, it is all our responsibility to address and stop this exploitation of women for the sake of all our mothers, daughters, wives, and sisters. Every date rapist has a least a couple friends who, at one point or another, could have said…
“BE A MAN not a PARASITE!”
“When was this idyllic time pre-contraception when men in general saw women as people in their own right? Was that when marital rape was legal? When women weren’t allowed to vote? When women were expected to get just enough education to attract men and raise children, but couldn’t attend universities? When women couldn’t open bank accounts or get credit cards without their husbands’ permission? When a woman ceased to exist as a legal entity when she got married?
I’ll take my status as a woman now over any time in history, thanks.”
Jen R, it was never any part of my intention to claim that there was an “idyllic” period in history when men saw women as complete equals in their own right. Where did I say anything like that? I’m a feminist too, and I know my history, thank you. I have a degree in the subject, as a matter of fact.
Women have had to come a long way toward equality. All of the advances we have made were based on convincing men that we were not mere children to be kept from the harsh realities of life, that we were intelligent adults and equal in dignity with men. Women got the vote, they entered the workplace, they won other freedoms. Then the “Playboy Philosophy” came along (a much better and more accurate word than the “sexual revolution,” which actually started as a feminist term). This was the point where women traded their real gains in dignity for sexual “freedom” and lost big time.
I can recall reading Kate Millet’s 1970 book Sexual Politics a few years ago (yes, I’m always at least one revolution behind). I really enjoyed her takedowns of the Victorian view of women and of writers from D. H. Lawrence to Henry Miller. I loved the way she exposed their treatment of women as objects and inferiors. Then I recall her saying something like “women should have the exact same sexual freedom men have always enjoyed up until now.” It was almost as though she were saying “what men have done to women has been very bad, and the worst thing is that women haven’t been allowed to do it too!” As I read, I thought, “yeah, that’s where we lost it, all right.” We gave away respect for us as women in exchange for the ability to act like the worst of men. This has not increased men’s respect for us, needless to say.
As for society’s view of women today, take Gerard’s cue. Listen to much rap music? Go to movies much? Just recently I read a hilarious editorial in Entertainment Weekly pointing out that Hollywood hasn’t made many gains in regard to women. The big test for a film was “Is there more than one woman in a film? Do they have names? Do they talk to each other about something other than a man?” Very few films today would pass the test.
I enjoy as a woman many of the freedoms we have won. But anyone who thinks the situation for women today is satisfactory, must less idyllic, is living in the state of denial I was talking about.
Let’s see if changing the crime and situation a little helps our feminist friends understand what we are trying to say.
When I lived in Arizona, I worked at a hospital that had 9 active gangs all claiming the territory immediately around the hospital as a part of their “turf”. I worked the night shift. If I needed to go out to my car during my shift (let’s say I had something in it I needed, or I was being sent home early), it was standard protocol to call for an armed security escort. Not everyone did that. (Heck, there were times, much to my husband’s chagrin, that *I* didn’t do that).
Now, having the armed security escort with you wouldn’t necessarily prevent an armed gang member from shooting me as I walked to my car. It would, however, cut down on the probability of such an event. If I had walked out to my car alone, it would still very much have been the fault of the person who shot me. I, however, would still be dead or badly injured, so not a huge consolation to me, my husband, or my children. Walking out to my car alone would not mean I was “asking” to be killed. It would mean, however, that I had raised the risks of such a thing because I would be presenting a far more “easy” target… a lone unarmed female as opposed to a female accompanied by a giant, obviously armed male! Therefore, it would be smart of me to lower my risks by taking the easily available option of having the guard walk me out.
The same thing is true of the young woman in a bar. No, she is NOT asking to be raped. However, if she is alone, rather than in a group, and drinking alcohol, she is not taking options that would otherwise be at her disposal to keep herself safer and lower the probability of an attack. Does remaining sober prevent rape? No, certainly someone with ill intent can either drug a soda or simply force themselves. Does being with others who are looking out for you prevent rape? No, it’s possible to separate someone from a group in a crowded bar or for your “backup” to accidentally be looking away at the wrong moment. Does avoiding the bar scene altogether prevent rape? No, we all know that there are people who get raped at many locations. However, any or all of these things helps to lower the risk of rape.
Does that mean that drunk women alone in a bar are “asking” to be raped? Absolutely not, and those rapes should be prosecuted. However, even a successful prosecution does not change the fact that the woman will now have to live with lifelong consequences physical, psychological, and emotional. Far better to do whatever is possible to lower risks even if that is not 100% preventative of the crime.
Biggz! In one week, you agreed with one of my posts and today I agree with yours.
Gerard, way up above,
Live forever!
“Biggz! In one week, you agreed with one of my posts and today I agree with yours.”
The world must be coming to an end!
Joking aside, Biggzz, for once you said something really sensible.
((“We’re needing to create a message to the victims of these kind of crimes.” OK, sure, but what about sending a message to men who rape? What about a public education campaign that tells men “No means no”? ))
There has been a campaign of “no means no”, but hte problem with the drunk come-on is, she isn’t saying no…she is saying YES. And he is saying yes. But suddenly her “yes” really doesn’t mean ”yes” because she is impaired.
Also, there has been a lot of complaining about “blaming the victim” & the woman having zero responsibility in the situation be it location, activity, level of intoxication, dress, or even inviting sex. However, full responsibility is somehow put on not only the male (often intoxicated as well), but also now his male companions & friends who are suppose to be held accountable for the actions of their drunk, male companion. “You watch your friends and remind them that if a woman is too drunk to say ‘yes,’ she’s too drunk for sex.” So let me get this straight…the guys, drunk or sober, have total responsibility & 100% blame if a drunk girl has sex, but the girl has zero responsiblity & is held blameless in all cases, even if she never said no & in fact said yes to the sex? That it is IMPOSSIBLE for her to consent if she is impaired, but it is IMPAIRATIVE that the males refrain or restrain despite the advances of the female. Very strange & hypocritical set up…I thought feminists were all about equality. No equality in this scenerio.
Just Wondering: Actually, I’ve had a LOT of talks with my sons on this issue as well. They know that for their own sakes they are NEVER to be alone with a woman or girl who is not a relative. Think of Joseph from the Old Testament. When he refused to sleep with Potiphar’s wife she accused him of rape and he spent YEARS in prison after being unjustly accused. Prevention of being accused (just like prevention of being raped) is always preferable to the clean-up of the problem afterwards.
Elisabeth,
Excellent! I have the same conversations with my eldest son. No compromising situations.
Thanks, Gerard!
Did you work at the Covenant House on 41st? I pass it occasionally. I work in Times Square (unfortunately RIGHT in Times Square, currently) but I often have reason to head a couple blocks west. I think of you whenever I do.
Well ninek next week the beer is on me lol
“It is undeniable that some rapists target women who dress revealingly to “teach them a lesson”, such as their twisted cognitions are.”
Yep, that’s true. Gary Ridgway, the Green River Killer, was molested by his mother as a child and as a result had an intense hatred for women who displayed any sexuality whatsoever. He killed dozens of roadside prostitutes because they were in a vulnerable position and weren’t as likely to be missed as women who had more family connections.
Being the victim of a crime is not the victim’s fault. However, if there are things you can do to significantly decrease your likelihood of being a victim, they’re worth doing. I think it’s pretty widely known by this point that a lot of rape, molestation, and just plain unadvisable sex happen when one or both parties are drunk. Getting drunk isn’t even a good idea in and of itself. Even if you avoid any serious complications or consequences, you’re probably at least going to vomit or have a headache the next day. Who wants to barf or have a headache?
If you go to a party and don’t drink, or go to a party and only have a couple of drinks spaced out, you’ll be better off no matter who you are.
My guess would be that David Brown focused on women protecting themselves, as opposed to men not raping women, because if someone is a rapist it’s probably not going to work to tell him, “You know, you should stop raping people because it’s wrong and immoral and can land you in prison.” They know that already. If they’ve made it to adulthood with the mentality that it’s okay to rape someone, it’s going to take a lot more than a cop telling them it’s not okay to rid them of that mentality.
Hi Alexandra,
Yes, most of my time was at 41st and 10th. For a time I worked over at the intensive counseling unit in the original Times Square facility on 8th ad 43rd street. Say a prayer for the kids when you pass by. Their burdens are beyond imagining.
I really love your approach regarding an implicit no unless otherwise specified.
God Bless,
Gerry
JuSt WoNdErInG
August 18th, 2010 at 7:54 pm
There has been a campaign of “no means no”, but hte problem with the drunk come-on is, she isn’t saying no…she is saying YES. And he is saying yes. But suddenly her “yes” really doesn’t mean ”yes” because she is impaired.
Uh, yeah. Someone whose judgment is impaired is not capable of giving consent. In what way is that not totally obvious?
Also, there has been a lot of complaining about “blaming the victim” & the woman having zero responsibility in the situation be it location, activity, level of intoxication, dress, or even inviting sex.
Why on earth would “level of intoxication” or “dress” have anything to do with consent? Of course people complain about victim-blaming when those are brought up! They have nothing to do with anything!
However, full responsibility is somehow put on not only the male (often intoxicated as well), but also now his male companions & friends who are suppose to be held accountable for the actions of their drunk, male companion. “You watch your friends and remind them that if a woman is too drunk to say ‘yes,’ she’s too drunk for sex.” So let me get this straight…the guys, drunk or sober, have total responsibility & 100% blame if a drunk girl has sex, but the girl has zero responsiblity & is held blameless in all cases, even if she never said no & in fact said yes to the sex?
I smell deliberate obtuseness. With the acknowledgment that women can and do rape, it is the total responsibility and 100% blame on a rapist for raping someone. If a girl is drunk, you don’t rape her. If she says no, you don’t rape her. If she says yes, then changes her mind and says no, you don’t rape her! And the fault lies, always, with the rapist. That’s not complicated or inequitable. It’s reality.
Keli, I don’t think JW is accusing women of rape. What I think (and it does have a valid point) is that you often have TWO parties with impaired judgment. You have the drunk woman… and often a drunk man who may be too impaired to think rationally about the fact that she is impaired. Not to minimize true cases of date rape in any way, there are times when it is not, in fact, date rape, but next day regret.
So, as you say, if she says yes, then changes her mind and says no, you don’t rape her. Very true. What if she says yes and doesn’t change her mind until the next day when she is sober? Then what?
Lori:
“Jen R, it was never any part of my intention to claim that there was an “idyllic” period in history when men saw women as complete equals in their own right. Where did I say anything like that?”
You wrote: “Contraception has helped remove men’s ability to see women as people in their own right.”
This doesn’t really make any sense if men didn’t see women as people before contraception either.
“Removing the possibility of new life makes nonsense of the idea of commitment. It encourages a man to look on a woman not as the mother of their future children, but as a freely available sex toy.”
I think you’re really optimistic about how men saw women before the availability of reliable contraception. They may have been more sexually circumspect because of the higher risk of unwanted parenthood (or, you know, they might have just abandoned their pregnant partners), but it doesn’t follow that they actually viewed women with any more respect. They rather obviously didn’t.
Also, to claim that commitment can’t exist when children aren’t in the mix is just ridiculous.
“there are times when it is not, in fact, date rape, but next day regret”
As they say at Wikipedia, [citation needed]. How often does this happen, really?
I think this conversation calls for a link: Sexual assault prevention tips guaranteed to work!
I don’t know nor care how often it happens. To say that it never happens at all defies all common sense. Therefore, it is wise for both genders to abstain from putting themselves in situations where they can be otherwise compromised due to impairment.
I was merely pointing out that another poster had a valid concern… can you not imagine any scenario where a guy, through stupidity and drunkenness ends up listed as a sexual predator (which nowadays is for life)?
Are you saying that women never manufacture lies? Tawana Brawley ring a bell? How about the Duke lacrosse team…?
But, to satisfy… here ya go:
Law professor Michelle J. Anderson of Villanova wrote The Legacy of the Prompt Complaint Requirement, Corroboration Requirement, and Cautionary Instructions on Campus Sexual Assault which proposes a number of reforms to make institututional discipline more efficient. One startling point in the paper was that no reliable statistics exist on the frequency of false rape claims: “As a scientific matter, the frequency of false rape complaints to police or other legal authorities remains unknown.” (See pages 33-35). Professor Anderson’s conclusion is noteworthy in light of the often repeated claim of advocates that this information is known definitively: “false accusations account for only 2% of all reported sexual assaults. This is no higher than false reports for other crimes.” Although the article asserts that “no study has ever been published which sets forth an evidentiary basis for the ‘two percent false rape complaint’ thesis,” even universities repeat this statistic, and it shows up in such important venues as the legislative history of VAWA. Pub. L. 102-199, S. Rep. 102-197 n.48 (
Oct. 29, 1991).
Kanin, E.J., (1994) “False Rape Accusations”, Archives of Sexual Behavior, V23, P81-92 states that that 41% of reported rapes were outright fabrications, by admission of the woman.
Warren Farrell, in his book The Myth of Male Power (1993, p.322), cites an Air Force study that investigated 556 charges of rape by servicewomen. In that investigation, 27% ADMITTED that their accusations had been false either before or after being confronted with lie detector tests. Farrell cites “False Allegations,” Forensic Science Digest, V. 11, no. 4, Dec. 1985, p. 64, by Charles P. McDowell. Farrell says the Digest is a publication of the Air Force Office of Special Investigations in D.C.
A study of rape allegations in Indiana over a nine-year period revealed that over 40% were shown to be false — not merely unproven. According to the author, “These false allegations appear to serve three major functions for the complainants: providing an alibi, seeking revenge, and obtaining sympathy and attention. False rape allegations are not the consequence of a gender-linked aberration, as frequently claimed, but reflect impulsive and desperate efforts to cope with personal and social stress situations.” ( Kanin EJ. Arch Sex Behav. 1994 Feb;23(1):81-92 False rape allegations. )
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/gloucestershire/8550118.stm is the story of a woman jailed for making false claims of rape.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-493352/Woman-falsely-cried-rape-EIGHT-times-spared-jail.html — this British woman managed to escape jail time after false accusations.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1225474/Girl-cried-rape-living-fantasy-having-sex-strangers.html — this one is about a woman who went out and had a threesome to spite her boyfriend… and then claimed rape.
http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/bethlehem/index.ssf/2009/10/lehigh_student_waives_hearing.html — This Pennsylvania woman made a false claim of rape to try to get out of being charged for underage public drunkenness.
And here is a great article about how women who falsely claim rape harm, more than anyone else, legitimate rape victims: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/crying_wolf_really_hurts_true_victims_rwAbgNpYtdtBgOwuXOmn3M
And as to the drink spiking thing, apparently at least in England is not as common as it is believed to be… http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1225854/Are-date-rape-spiked-drinks-urban-myth.html?ITO=1490 (Interesting comment from one woman that she didn’t understand how imbibing alcohol and smoking pot could possibly be responsible for her lack of inhibitions and blurry memory. No, that’s just not possible. She had to have had her drink spiked, even though the drug test the police ran did not indicate that.)
“This doesn’t really make any sense if men didn’t see women as people before contraception either.”
Once again, Jen R, I have pointed out that women made nay strides in the decades before widespread effective contraception was introduced. Even without these, women’s childbearing ability was one of the things about them that did demand respect from men, as well as an understanding that there were consequences to uncommitted sexual activity for women in the form of pregnancy. I think there was much more respect for an unexpectedly pregnant woman back then than there is today. You may think the days when I man understood it was his duty to marry his pregnant girlfriend are just too quaint, but I would vastly prefer it to what we have now, when the leading cause of death for pregnant women is homicide – usually from their partners. Yeah, women have made SUCH strides.
A lot of you are aware of the possibilities of individuals putting date rape drugs in drinks but when warning someone of risks always make sure to include the possibility of date rape drugs being put in food as well. And couldn’t it be put in just about anything like hand sanitizers, liquid soap or lotions?
Lori,
Social pressure to marry a woman if you get her pregnant (and again, this didn’t apply to a lot of women) isn’t respect. It’s externally-imposed fear. And unexpectedly pregnant women certainly weren’t respected by society — they were shunned as sluts unless the baby’s father married them.
I wonder what the homicide rate for pregnant women used to be, versus what it is now. I wouldn’t assume it was different. Pregnant women are a lot less likely to die for medical reasons now, which is one reason that homicide is the leading cause of death, but I see no reason to believe they’re more likely to be killed now than in the past. If anything, I’d expect to see more murders of pregnant women in a situation where death is the only way to avoid unwanted marriage.
Save inebriation til after marriage or maybe just abstain, period. -yorbroken
Awesome.
“My guess would be that David Brown focused on women protecting themselves, as opposed to men not raping women, because if someone is a rapist it’s probably not going to work to tell him, “You know, you should stop raping people because it’s wrong and immoral and can land you in prison.” They know that already. If they’ve made it to adulthood with the mentality that it’s okay to rape someone, it’s going to take a lot more than a cop telling them it’s not okay to rid them of that mentality.”
That was my thought too… especially with regards to those slipping something in a woman’s drink. Perhaps it’s actually that he respects women and not rapists?
Myrtle, I would think it would have to be ingested. So food is a possibility, but not sanitizer. I don’t know if it’s liquid or has to dissolve, but either way it might be noticeable more on food, unless it’s something like soup (and I’ve never heard of soup in a bar). I guess it could go inside a burger or sandwich….
My recommendation is this, for guys: keep it zipped until you’re married. If she ever has a grudge against you, she can claim rape. Even if you were/are in a relationship.
My inclination would actually be to call all extramarital intercourse rape. Gets rid of any ambiguity, any blame for the woman. And I’ve never met a married woman who was glad for the premarital sex she used to have with other people (except when it resulted in a child, in which case she was grateful for the child). I’ve never met anyone who waited for marriage and regretted it. In my experience, if you do things that you know you shouldn’t before marriage–even short of sex, even with a fiance(e)–it doesn’t suddenly feel right when you are married. It can take years to repair the damage and have a pure enjoyment of that activity–even just kissing.
Jen R, I didn’t say a word about social pressure to marry. Believe it or not, there was actually a time when men were taught some sort of chivalry and respect for women. Once again, I am NOT claiming it was universally followed in practice. A hangover from Victorian ideas about woman on a pedestal, so in some ways not good, but in my mind vastly preferable in many ways to what we have now. (I wish we would strike some sort of balance someday).
As for the homicide rate, Jill puts up here two or three cases every week of men killing their girlfriends because they refuse to have abortions — something that would be very unlikely to happen back in the days when abortion was illegal. I suspect a very large number of the homicides I mentioned are of this type.
And what caused Chief Brown’s son to shoot a cop in a neighboring city? Was it drinking?
young christian woman
I would think date rape drugs could be put in any thing that made contact with the human body whether it was ingested or absorbed by the body. Hopefully not.
Myrtle, not all medications can be absorbed through the skin. For some, it is the preferred method! (In fact, there are some drugs, like magnesium sulfate, that cannot be absorbed orally, they HAVE to be given IV.)
Pharmacokinetics are an amazing thing.
Peter August 19th, 2010 at 7:20 pm
“And what caused Chief Brown’s son to shoot a cop in a neighboring city? Was it drinking?”
==============================================================
I believe Brown’s son had a long history of abusing himself with drugs and/or alcohol. He had a history of run-ins with the law.
I don’t recall hearing or reading the results of the pharmacology tests that were surely done after Brown’s son was shot and killed by the police after he had shot and killed a police officer.
All the shooting and killing occurred on Father’s Day.
Chief Brown seems like a decent man and competent police chief.
(Too bad he got saddled with the Dallas Police Department. Any governmental agency within the confines of Dallas County is a cross between a circus and an burlesque show. No new revelation is shocking. You just wonder when, not if.)
I have to grieve for his grief. Losing a son is hard enough. Losing a son after he has shot and killed a police officer is bad. That it happened on Father’s Day has to be the worst.
“Predators CHOOSE their targets and bitter, liberal feminists don’t want to hear about how not to be chosen because to do so sheds light on the broken, toxic, contraceptive culture that has come out of the Sexual Revolution.”
I remember on one of Bill Cosby’s early comedy albums [33 1/3 Stereo LP] he had a routine about taking karate lessons and then, wanting to prove his prowess, he went walking through dark alleys in the bad part of town with 20 dollar bills [today it would be 100’s] hanging out of his pockets.
When a predator finally ‘made his day’ all of Cosby’s training was for nought.
After Cosby executed his karate move complete with blood curdling scream and a whirling dervish spin kick. that missed the mark by mile, much to his dismay, Cosby discovered the mugger was a midget.
The little person told Cosby to shut up, be still and hand over the money before he blew Bill’s kneecap off.
“The bible does not say the stupidity is a sin, but it does frown upon it.”
Be aware of your surrondings. Make yourself a ‘hard target’ [which punks prefer to avoid] and as the lead character in ‘Zombieland’ cautioned, “Pack some heat and practice the ‘double tap’, do your ‘cardio exercises and always have an avenue of escape.
Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for the children of police officers to rebel in truly horrible ways, often connected to the specialty their father practices. For example, narcotics enforcement officers, such as my father, often have children who abuse drugs or sell drugs. (My brother did drugs as a teen, but never, as far as I know, sold them).
Elisabeth
Do you know if date rape drugs can be put in other mediums that are not ingested but absorbed through the skin? I would think so but that’s just speculation. Your right pharmokinetics are amazing. It’s just sad that sometimes they are used for evil instead of good.
Loved reading this.