Killing puppies vs. killing babies
The following disturbing video has in recent days caused “international fury,” according to The Daily Mail, and “social media uproar,” according to Mashable.
The video, which shows a teenage girl heartlessly and gleefully (“weeee”) throwing puppies into a river, 1st appeared on 4chan August 31. YouTube has since removed the video, but it is still available many places elsewhere. Warning: graphic footage of animal cruelty…
As I said, outrage immediately ensued, along with a worldwide womanhunt to track down the perpetrator. Transformers director director Michael Bay offered a $50k “bounty for puppy-throwing girl.” PETA offered $1,500.
As the police pursued tips to find the hoodied villain, LiveLeaks warned against vigilante “threats… or ‘action,'” if civilians nabbed her 1st. Over 22k people have signed on to the “Find the girl throwing puppies in the river!!!!!” Facebook page (interesting screen graphic from that page right).
On September 3 the girl was found in Bosnia. The Daily Mail refused to post her name “to protect her safety,” adding she had received death threats. eworldpost.com wondered if she was “mad.”
While initially the girl was fingered as 19-yr-old Katja Puschnik of Bosnia, later reports indicated she is a minor and won’t be publicly named.
The point of this post? Had the girl killed her preborn baby – in a much more heinous way, by suctioning, chopping or slicing – society would and does not find that so viscerally detestable as her drowning puppies.
What if she had been videotaped while aborting? Society would not have allowed that to be shown. And if it made its way online virally? The moral outcry have been against the person filming the atrocity, not the girl. And we know rewards would certainly not be offered for the aborter’s capture.
As evidence of the great disconnect between animal abuse and preborn human abuse, Salon posted an article entitled, “Our conflicted relationship with animals: Why do we get so angry with animal abusers, but eat more animals than ever before?”
More evidence of the great disconnect, from the article, which starts with a question about this video and another newly infamous video showing a woman throwing a cat in the trash:
One is that they both involved women. And this is a little bit of an anomaly, because if you look at animal cruelty trials and (data), I think it’s that 90-95% are men behind them. So that’s one reason why this went viral; it’s the surprising idea of women being cruel in this way….
Yet thousands of times a day in the US alone, women behave much more cruelly than this, killing their own offspring.
[HT: Kelli]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
The moto is “Save the puppies, Kill the babies” I’m surprised I haven’t seen it on bumper stickers yet.
That is a horrible video! That girl has something seriously wrong with her.
Which is exactly how I feel about abortion supporters.
This girl looks like Little Red Riding Hood from Hell, muhahaha!
They did find her, she lives in Bosnia and is underage.
That WAS shocking. Although, sadly unsurprising. If we can’t even respect our own species why do people expect us to respect other species?
Where’s PETA’s outrage over human abortions and human atrocities? Where’s the bounty for abortionists?
But I thought if I wanted to kill my puppies, or pay someone to kill my puppies, that would be a “private matter.” No? Oh, wait, I know what the pro-abort response will be: “If that puppy were invading MY BODY, I would have the right to kill it!” (To which I’d respond, how on EARTH did that puppy get THERE?)
Sarcasm aside, I find animal cruelty stomach turning. :( This is no exception.
Maybe it’s because you’ll never get the public to feel empathy for a mindless, unfeeling first-trimester fetus. If people actually believed early-term fetuses were worthy beings with feelings, there would already be a viral video showing an abortion and vigilantes threatening to “hunt down” the killer. But there are plenty of abortion videos, and very few vigilantes. A brainless fetus that looks like a piece of shrimp isn’t as moving as a living, breathing creature like these puppies.
“Reality”, fetuses certainly are living, and rather than looking like shrimp, they have clear and discernable fingers and toes. Also, their brains are forming by Week 5, which is before a lot of women even know they’re pregnant.
If women killed puppies every day, the Supreme Court ruled women had a right to kill puppies, and killing puppies was supposedly “a private matter”, fewer people would be outraged about killing puppies. It’s the familiar horror versus the unexpected horror. Plus, while most people don’t want to see what abortion does, a girl throwing puppies in a river has that trainwreck/have-to-see-it-to-believe-it aspect.
Pro-lifers “hunt down”, to use your terminology, abortionists all the time – not to kill them, but to protest or counsel outside their clinics.
Hi Reality.
Can you describe what it takes in order for a human being to be worthy of life? From your post, you seem to be saying that in order to have dignity and moral worth, you need to have a mind (though I don’t know what you mean by that since usually it is synonymous with soul, which is a religious concept), have feelings, have a brain, breath, and not look like shrimp. What if I am a cold, heartless scumbag with no feelings? Do I lose my right to life? What is it that infuses dignity and moral worth into a being?
So, “reality,” because our cold, cruel world does not have the capacity to “feel empathy” for a “mindless, unfeeling first-trimester fetus,” that makes it okay to kill him or her? What about unborn puppies who are “brainless” and “look like a shrimp?” Do you not have a problem with someone destroying them? Both unborn babies and unborn puppies will grow and develop into their more “recognizable” forms if they are left alone to do so. A lack of empathy for them in their earliest stage of life is our problem, not theirs. Interesting to know that you feel one’s humanity is based on how one looks, not whether one is biologically a human.
Reality –
I think you’re onto something in a way. People recognize the value of puppies b/c they can see it. It’s the same reason people are offering a bounty on this girl’s head, but will eat meat at the same time. B/c meat shows up on their table looking nothing like the animal it came from. I guarantee that if people were to work on one of these commercial livestock farms and slaughter the animal themselves, you’d see less of this anomaly. However I disagree that people wouldn’t have a visceral reaction to seeing an abortion – even an early term one – if they could REALLY see it. If they could watch the machine suction the baby out piece by piece; watch the fetus move to avoid the instruments. There is some video of this available (“The Silent Scream” comes to mind). The image is poor, but disturbing. People can tolerate almost any cruelty when they don’t have to face it and they can talk about it from afar. Of course there would still be some who wouldn’t care (we do have abortionists after all) but I think abortion support relies heavily on and benefits from keeping the humanity of the fetus hidden. Otherwise, PP and their ilk would be posting pictures of fetal remains to counter our “fictitious” pro-life pictures….showing the world what a clump of cells really looks like.
“Otherwise, PP and their ilk would be posting pictures of fetal remains to counter our “fictitious” pro-life pictures….showing the world what a clump of cells really looks like.”
WOW. VERY simple insight, yet VERY profound. Here is a simple defeater to teh “anti-choice lie” about what an abortion does. We claim to have pictures of it. “No, they’re fake, they’re all fake.” Produce real ones then. It would shut us all up. Why haven’t PP show pictures of real ones? It would be easy, and it would put a cork in the mouths of anti-choicers. Excellent observation, CT.
Simply, cruelty against animals is outrageous. Normal, natural, personal family decisions are not.
Bobby, perhaps Planned Parenthood doesn’t show pictures of fetuses out of respect for the women aborting? Have you considered the thoughts and feelings of the woman who had that fetus inside of her? Probably not….
Hate to break it to you . . . litters of puppies and kittens are frequently drowned in rural areas if they are unwanted. And I don’t see how drowning an animal is less humane than many of the ways by which animals are slaughtered for food or clothing.
Also the so-called “Anti-Cruelty” society here in Chicago euthanizes boat loads of unwanted cats and dogs every week. Is it MORE humane to cage the animal and then shoot it up with life-ending injections? Maybe. But unwanted dogs and cats are killed all the time in various ways. It doesn’t shock me or make me mad. It’s not like she tortured the poor things. She just drowned them.
If it is customary in this girl’s area to drown a litter of unwanted puppies or to lop off a chickens head and throw its body in the dinner pot, why would people be “hunting” her?
Otherwise, PP and their ilk would be posting pictures of fetal remains to counter our “fictitious” pro-life pictures….showing the world what a clump of cells really looks like.
It says a lot that pro-lifers are always displaying pictures of late-term aborted fetuses (although many are actually pictures of miscarriages or stillbirths). Instinctively, they know that a late-term fetus has more worth than a fertilized egg, even though they claim they’re morally equivalent. And why does Jill continue to use the qualifier “late-term abortionist” in all her posts? Obviously, she thinks there’s something different about late-term abortions, something worth mentioning. Could it be that, like most pro-choicers, she doesn’t believe a fertilized egg has as much worth as a late-term fetus, and that fetuses deserve more protection as they get closer to birth? If so, she agrees with the language of Roe v. Wade. If not, she should have no reason to point out that someone does “late-term” abortions, since all abortions are the same. She’s given up the ghost on her real beliefs.
Simply, cruelty against animals is outrageous. Normal, natural, personal family decisions are not.
… perhaps Planned Parenthood doesn’t show pictures of fetuses out of respect for the women aborting? Have you considered the thoughts and feelings of the woman who had that fetus inside of her? Probably not….
If it’s so normal and natural, then why should a woman care, if it’s of no consequence?
BTW, I just love the way you call dismemberment a “normal, natural, personal “family” decision.” LOL Wow, it’s no wonder pro-aborts hate the PICTURES, they can’t even call it what it is without using nice, little, tidy, whitewashed terms…
“perhaps Planned Parenthood doesn’t show pictures of fetuses out of respect for the women aborting?”
What would be wrong with it? People volunteer to have pictures of their surgeries taken all the time for medical journals, books, and all sorts of other media. Abortion is just another procedure similar to those, so why should it have special treatment, especially if anti choicers are spreading lies about it?
“Have you considered the thoughts and feelings of the woman who had that fetus inside of her? Probably not….”
Nope, never. Never once thought about the women. I’m a heartless s.o.b. What follows about the reality of abortion?
And why does Jill continue to use the qualifier “late-term abortionist” in all her posts? Obviously, she thinks there’s something different about late-term abortions, something worth mentioning.
Probably because by THAT time, people like you can’t even call them “clumps of cells” with a straight face.
Could it be that, like most pro-choicers, she doesn’t believe a fertilized egg has as much worth as a late-term fetus, and that fetuses deserve more protection as they get closer to birth?
I’m guessing no. (BTW, it’s a zygote, not a fertilized egg.) Perhaps it’s because most people in society are disgusted by the idea of a woman killing her child once she’s begun to “show.” Before then, it’s easier to pretend it’s just a clump of cells. And late-term abortionists aren’t just suctioning out tiny rib cages – they’re pulling off limbs you don’t need a magnifying glass to identify. Even from their own testimonies, they know EXACTLY what they are doing.
Nope, never. Never once thought about the women. I’m a heartless s.o.b.
LOL, Bobby. :D
I’m just so tired, Kel, of all the ad hominem arguments that are put forth by pro-choicers. I don’t care anymore. Yup I hate women. Yup I’m a hypocrite. Yup I worship dirt. Yup I have the education of a second grader. Fine, whatever. None of those facts about me addresses abortion- what it is and whether or not it is a moral decision. None of it address arguments that teh pro-life movement puts forth. It’s simply a convenient way to blow off any argument while “keeping” your intellectual pride.
Dear Reality,
Here’s a picture of an EIGHT WEEK child that was aborted by suction. It looks nothing like a piece of shrimp. I dare you to look.
http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/monica/monica9/AbortedBabyPhotos/weekssuction2.html
It would make pro-abortion advocates feel so much better if only pro-lifers would start hating on the human offspring before they have visible arms, legs, eyes, nose. Oh, gee, well, if I can’t see a nose, then, oh, I guess it’s ok to kill it. As if! Perhaps a pro-choice person can feel worse about a late term abortion that she feels about a first trimester, but you see, that’s how a PRO-CHOICE person feels. Pro-choice abortion advocates keep coming over here trying to make the pro-lifers become pro-choice. Do you know what it’s called when you perform the same action over and over and expect a different result? Insanity. Face it, we are pro-life from conception to natural death. As for myself, I was once pro-choice. I could never go back! Just like you can’t turn a cake back into eggs, flour, and sugar, you can never turn me back into a pro-choice believer. In order to become pro-choice, peform an abortion, or not even feel guilt about having an abortion, one has to embrace mental illness. One has to disconnect from the natural instinct to protect and nurture one’s fellow humans. The reason that so many post-abortive women (and men) become ardent pro-life activists is that they have undergone enough HEALING to reconnect to the human race.
I’ve often wondered how an audience would react if I came onstage at a theater, with a goldfish in a bowl, and used abortion instruments to kill the goldfish. Imagine the outrage!
Bobby, I would love to watch a typical pro-abort attempt to take you on in any type of intellectual competition. You’d blow them out of the water, professor!
Yes reality and kusheilmoon I’ve got you. You have PADS Pro-Abort Derangement Syndrome. You are definately a part of the Dead Babies R Us crew, “the only good baby is a dead baby” philosophy (I think the KKK used that phrase substituing the N-word instead of baby years ago), the “every woman who wants a dead baby deserves to get one” mindset, ”I never saw a dead fetus, I didn’t like” crowd. You are indeed very, very sick. God help you.
Kushielsmoon – Simply, cruelty against animals is outrageous. Normal, natural, personal family decisions are not.
You get to define “normal”? You get to define “personal”? You get to define what’s a “family decision”?
No. You. Don’t.
Suppose my normal was to eat “dog meat”. Would you defend my belief if I said her act was outrageous because she was wasting perfectly good dog? What if that was my cultural normal – would you use force to stop me from roasting that puppy on a spit?
Your normal is death/sex/abortion/ worship. Sorry – that doesn’t work for me and many others.
You can’t provide a moral rationality for your immoral promotions. While pro-lifers may be disgusted with her actions – you simply come across as being super hypocritical.
And I don’t see how drowning an animal is less humane than many of the ways by which animals are slaughtered for food or clothing.
NAD — you have a point. Awhile ago, I watched a show called “Our Daily Bread” about how animals are killed in slaughterhouses. It wasn’t pretty. One thing that struck me is how animals are raised in factory farming. They showed a sow with her piglets and the poor little things didn’t have any bedding to lay on. And the cows . . . don’t get me started. I stopped eating meat after that, and I’m working on chicken, but it’s hard to change your ways after years of being an omnivore!
I recently read an article about China that said that St. Bernards are raised there for their meat because they’re so big. Dog-loving Westerners think that St. Bernards are big and cuddly and adorable, and we’re shocked and horrified by this, but I’m sure many Hindus would be aghast at the sight of a Big Mac.
“perhaps Planned Parenthood doesn’t show pictures of fetuses out of respect for the women aborting?”
Kushiel’s Moon, why should these women be bothered by the pictures, if they’re just blobs, zygotes, etc., anyway?
Bobby, despite the fact that you are a stupid heartless SOB, eat dirt as well as worship it, and most likely have back hair, I like you anwyay. Perhaps someday I’ll treat you to a cheeseteak (I’ll eat mine without the steak)!
Oh, yeah, I remember one of our pastor’s wives telling a story when I was a really little girl about going to China as missionaries and picking a puppy out of a store window thinking it would make a sweet gift for their daughter. She was AGHAST when the lady brought it out to her dead in a paper bag… you know, so she could cook it for dinner that night!
KM,
Yeah. Out of respect PP does all that it does. Riiiiiiigghhhhttt.
where’s the bounty for abortionists? i’d say it’s in the hearts of the prolifers who stalk abortion providers and harass them at their homes. it’s on fox news when commentators refer to the doctors who provide abortions as baby killers. and it’s on the bloody hands of the individuals who go out and shoot the doctors and become heroes to the prolife community.
you’re a raving mob screaming about the lack of a raving mob. you can’t see the forest for the trees. and so on.
Hi Sophi,
Welcome.
I love that you do not address anyone in particular, throw out a deep or probing question or maybe a comment on the video of puppy killing!
But you use words like stalk, harass, bloody, raving, mob, screaming….
It’s quite a rant to behold. You win.
Sophi, a few facts that might get in the way of your so… um, erm… “eloquent” rant.
1) If abortionists don’t kill babies, what do they kill? Puppies? (That would at least keep this thread on topic)
2) People who murder other people are not pro-life and are not heroes to the pro-life community. Scott Roeder’s actions were condemned here because what we hoped and prayed for was not the death of Dr. Tiller, but the conversion. Another Dr. Nathanson (http://www.aboutabortions.com/Confess.html) would have been WONDERFUL.
3) There have been what… 7? attacks on pro-aborts? The abortionists have murdered how many millions? All murder is wrong… but we’re not the ones with bloody hands.
KushielsMoon
September 8th, 2010 at 1:45 pm
Simply, cruelty against animals is outrageous. Normal, natural, personal family decisions are not.
Oh my gosh, this comment nearly made me choke, and i wasn’t eating anything. Oh my gosh, KushielsMoon I LOVE your comment.
Okay, SARCASM aside, what kind of statement is THAT? Since WHEN is abortion a NORMAL NATURAL thing?
Conception and birth are normal and natural for the woman’s body. After all, her body is made that way. Menstration, ovulation, fertile times, that’s the body’s way of dealing with the woman’s ability to conceive and have a child. It’s one of the most natural things known to man dating way back to pre-recorded time. (Think we all got here by accident? AGAIN let’s quote the Professor from CS Lewis’s books, “What ARE they teaching in these schools?”)
Abortion takes away that natural normalcy of a woman’s functioning reproductive system and replaces it with unnatural hormones and/or inorganic machines. So, tell me what’s so “natural and normal” about that?
***WARNING the next comment is on the graphic side****It’s so “normal” to have a type of vacuum cleaner crammed up your vagina? REALLY? Shoot, I must’ve missed that day in biology/sexuality classes! ******
There is absolutely 100 percent NOTHING natural about abortion. I do NOT care what PP says or any other pro-abortion says, it is NOT natural. Nor is it NORMAL. (We may have gotten, in society, used to people having abortions, but that does NOT make it “normal”).
Miscarriage is a body’s natural way of dealing with a problem, but abortion is NOT. (And often times women mourn the baby they miscarry–I know because I know several women who have had miscarriages and mourned them–so even then, just because something’s natural or normal doesn’t mean it’s no big deal).
P.S. Carla and other mods, if I violated anything with my comment feel free to take delete it. I just needed to get that off my chest.
Anyone b’sides me starting to grow tired of people — of ANY opinion or ideology — choosing a name such as “freethinker” or “reality” or “one who knows” or “common sense” — as if to suggest that those who disagree with her/him could claim none of those things?
You got a good point there bmmg39.
I tire of them NOT using people names! John? David? Susan?
KushielsMoon
September 8th, 2010 at 1:46 pm
Bobby, perhaps Planned Parenthood doesn’t show pictures of fetuses out of respect for the women aborting? Have you considered the thoughts and feelings of the woman who had that fetus inside of her? Probably not….
I think you’ve forgotten which side you’re on. Post-abortion syndrome isn’t real, remember? The horrible, meanie anti-choicers made it up, right? So why would a woman who has abortion care at all about whether anyone sees pictures of the fetus she aborted? It’s not a person, right? It’s just a clump of cells. It doesn’t even look human, right?
Pick the one that you can live with, KM. But you can’t have it both ways.
WARNING the next comment is on the graphic side****It’s so “normal” to have a type of vacuum cleaner crammed up your vagina? REALLY? Shoot, I must’ve missed that day in biology/sexuality classes! ******
I’m not offended by this in the least bit. ”Vagina” isn’t a dirty word, or at least it shouldn’t be; there’s nothing “wrong” or “dirty” about our reproductive organs!
No, Mother In Texas, it’s not normal to have your cervix, which is tightly closed during pregnancy to protect the “blob,” forcibly dilated to have the “collection of cells” sucked out. Our bodies try to protect the fetus as much as possible.
I’m always amazed at the way the body works. I have a friend who works with women with eating disorders. In advanced cases of anorexia nervosa, the body develops a fine coating of downy hair (forget what it’s called) to provide warmth, since all the body’s fat stores are gone. I never liked George Carlin for making fun of anorexics. It really is a terrible disease.
The body is really a finely tuned machine — a magnificent one!
I trust, Carla, that my initials can count as a name.
“Simply, cruelty against animals is outrageous. Normal, natural, personal family decisions are not.”
When I was a child, I witnessed my beloved Grandmother drown newborn kittens in a bucket. I cried and cried. Grandma was sympathetic but pointed out the cats she was already taking care of because they could not fend for themselves (inbreds). She tried to find homes for all of them but neighboring farms had their share as well. She did her best to keep the toms away.
This was (and still is in places) a normal, natural and part of personal family decisions on the farm. Some farmers put the kittens/puppies in bags and hold it to a vehicle exhaust pipe. Others shoot them. Some have enough money to have the vet put them down. KM, want to adopt a few of these inbred critters? I also witnessed Grandpa kill farm/wild animals for food. This was part of surviving themselves and was not part of the blood sport mindset. BTW, these Grandparents were besides themselves when abortion became legal and were able to correctly predict where we now find ourselves.
The bloodsport mindset follows what we have allowed to be done to our unborn. I know kids that have purposely done “thrill killings” of animals — bashing them with bats to show off or purposely hitting them with vehicles. This terrible disrespect of animals is only a natural result of our terrible disrespect of our fellow unborn humans.
“I tire of them NOT using people names! John? David? Susan?”
We wouldn’t want to “person”alize persons now would we?
bmmg39, sure glad to know this is your initials! Everytime I see it, it takes me back to my daycare days. “Little Larry had a bm this afternoon and Suzi had one this morning.” Sorry (:
I think you know who I meant!! :)
Reality etc.
Having had an abortion, two miscarriages and four live births I would have to say the least normal and natural for me was the abortion!!!!!
Mother in Texas,
Your comment didn’t bother me in the least. Forcibly dilating the cervix, vacuuming a child out of your womb and then having that baby “put back together” so no parts are left inside is hardly NORMAL or NATURAL.
My family’s had six cats, and five of them were strays that showed up in our yard. Just out of curiousity, Praxedes, was there a financial reason that your grandmother couldn’t get her cats spayed or neutered? It seems to me like spaying/neutering could have saved her a lot of time taking care of cats and finding homes for them, money feeding them, and general anguish about killing kittens.
Two of our cats were pregnant before we adopted them. With the first one, she temporarily disappeared before she looked obviously pregnant and we came home from spring break to discover that she’d returned with six kittens. She wouldn’t let us come near them, so we had to livetrap the kittens and bring them to my aunt’s farm, where they ran off the first chance they got. Their mom got spayed.
The second one stuck around while she was pregnant, so we put her in the garage and went out several times a day to be there while we ran the space heater. She had six kittens, with one being stillborn and one dying shortly after birth. We found homes for the remaining four and then got their mom spayed.
Two of our cats were spayed when we got them, one we got neutered, and one never-pregnant one got spayed. My mom grew up on a farm too, but she figured preventing kittens was better than feeling compelled to kill kittens. I agree that there can be cultural differences about killing animals, but I don’t think American farmers in this day and age are justified in killing unwanted puppies and kittens. Spaying/neutering multiple dogs and cats can add up financially, but a lot of the time there are older animals in shelters whose previous owners did it already.
I am going to stay out of this discussion simply because it’s a pretty big leap from puppies to human fetuses and this is exactly the type of argument the anti-choice movement wants to have. If you can’t see the difference your just not willing to look because it’s pretty obvious…
Marauder, I don’t agree with drowning kittens or puppies, but spaying/neutering animals can be quite expensive, especially if you have more than one. I have three cats (one is actually my son’s) and have paid quite a bit in veterinary bills. My last kitty I found sleeping under the bushes near my workplace. She is a beautiful orange tabby, which is unusual because most orange tabbies are male. Her name is Goldie, but I sometimes call her “Blanche” because like Blanche Dubois, she depended on the “kindness of strangers.” I was lucky because I was able to get her spayed for $1.00 because a local animal shelter was having a special, but otherwise I would have paid at least $75.00. I should have been a vet instead of a social worker, I guess!
I wonder if cats are pro-life because they sure have lots of kittens!
Biggz
September 8th, 2010 at 5:49 pm
I am going to stay out of this discussion simply because it’s a pretty big leap from puppies to human fetuses and this is exactly the type of argument the anti-choice movement wants to have. If you can’t see the difference your just not willing to look because it’s pretty obvious…
You really don’t get it do you? If there’s this much outrage over animal babies, why not about human babies–who are our own species?
Many animal rights activists–the ones who are also pro-abort–are so willing to go the extra miles for another species, but not for their own.
It’s pretty obvious who’s the actual confused ones and it’s not any of the pro-lifers here. We all get it.
In fact, many of us have already expressed a dislike of animal cruelty, but along with that, we dislike cruelty towards humans and that is what abortion is. If you can’t see that, then you all are the ones missing the obvious.
Hi Biggz,
You HONESTLY think we don’t see the difference in the killing of puppies and babies??
I am appalled at both. More so the babies.
You are only appalled at one.
I once caught a group of youngsters in my neighborhood trying to drown a cat. I got closer and discovered, it was MY cat! And one of the little perps was a kid I regularly babysat. To say I went verbally ballistic is an understatement. I told the one kid, “You! I’m especially disappointed that YOU did this when you have a cat of your own that you pet!” Their parents all got an earful on the phone that day, I can tell you.
The cat survived that day.
“Just out of curiousity, Praxedes, was there a financial reason that your grandmother couldn’t get her cats spayed or neutered?”
The farmers I knew growing up did not have extra money to spend on vet bills, including my Grandparents. The family farm is becoming a thing of the past, I believe in part due to the greed of many corporate farms.
Anyway, my Grandparents had micers/pet cats and hunting/pet dogs that were neutered/spayed. They were indeed responsible pet owners. Unfortunately, many farms become dumping grounds for unwanted animals. “Strays” are not always stray but are the result of irresponsible people. Vet costs are a hardship to those who are already struggling to keep their heads above water.
People need to be taught to be, held accountable for and respect that which belongs to them. Be it a pet or their own body or their unborn child.
Ok you baited me into it…. I 100% disagree with killing babies, puppies, or kittens. If this was a video of a little girl throwing new born babies into the river the outrage would be far greater than anything we have seen in regards to this video of puppies. However, a fetus is not a baby. Would this video create such a stir if she was throwing aborted K9 fetuses into the river? No it would not in fact I doubt we would even be talking about it. You see this makes my point for me. It is because they are puppies and not fetuses that this video is causing such a stir. If the girl was throwing aborted K9 fetuses into the river the worst that would happen is maybe a forest ranger ticket for baiting fish…
The very reason anyone cares about this video is because it is of puppies and not K9 fetuses…
You see Fetuses are not Babies or even Puppies for that matter…
If they aren’t human babies, what are they? Fetus may sound awfully impressive, but it only means “young one”.
Why don’t you do this then Biggz? Throw some puppy and kitty fetuses disrespectfully into a river. Have your prodeath friends make a clear video. Put your video here first and I’ll pass it around the internet.
You see some believe puppy lives are more imortant than human lives for that matter. . . . .
Chris Arsenault , so is it you who get’s to define ‘normal’, personal’ and ‘family decision’ then is it? Because?
Your normal doesn’t work for me and many others. The difference is, I’m not trying to make you live my ‘normal’.
Is it ‘normal’ to have your femur ripped from your hip socket, have the end sawn off, have a steel spike hammered down into what’s left and then shoved back into the hip socket? Or what about a cochlear implant? Heart transplant? Describing abortions in the most horrifically descriptive and emotive manner possible doesn’t change it from being a medical procedure that women have the right to choose.
Yeah, I don’t see why this is so hard for Stanek’s readers to understand. If I saw a video of someone “aborting” fetal canines, I’d shrug and get on with life. A video of live puppies being tossed into a river is different. There isn’t any comparison. Yes, a video of someone tossing newborn babies into a river would spark even more rage than this video. But no matter how hard the anti-abortion crowd tries, the public isn’t worked up about first-trimester fetuses, which are 90% of abortions.
Yeah, I don’t see why this is so hard for Stanek’s readers to understand.
Understand what? Why pro-aborts delude themselves? That remains one of life’s great mysteries.
Describing abortions in the most horrifically descriptive and emotive manner possible doesn’t change it from being a medical procedure that women have the right to choose.
Abortion is murder. No matter how hard you try to deny it, it doesn’t change that fact.
Actually, if I saw a video of someone giving a dog an abortion, I think I’d be pretty upset about that, too… who does that?
My 6 year old knows more about embryology and fetal development than Reality seems to…
“Maybe it’s because you’ll never get the public to feel empathy for a mindless (BRAIN WAVES AT 6 WEEKS), unfeeling first-trimester fetus. If people actually believed early-term fetuses were worthy beings with feelings, there would already be a viral video showing an abortion and vigilantes threatening to “hunt down” the killer. But there are plenty of abortion videos, and very few vigilantes. A brainless fetus that looks like a piece of shrimp (DO YOU BELIEVE THE EARTH IS FLAT?)isn’t as moving as a living, breathing creature like these puppies.”
Where to begin? These statements about human embryos and fetuses are incredibly ignorant.
Maybe, if Reality is lucky, ultrasounds and other means of fetal photography will just- poof- disappear, and she won’t have to rely on outdated science and closing her eyes. So hard to take someone like this seriously on this topic. Wow.
I got to see my first trimester little one (fetus) swimming and having a grand ol’ time via ultrasound last week. Great arms, legs, face, belly! The swim-dancing in particular caused her or his family much rejoicing!
‘Abortion is murder. No matter how hard you try to deny it, it doesn’t change that fact.’ – no it’s not, it’s an opinion.
Well, “the definition of murder has evolved over several centuries. Under most modern statutes in the United States, murder comes in four varieties: (1) intentional murder; (2) a killing that resulted from the intent to do serious bodily injury; (3) a killing that resulted from a depraved heart or extreme recklessness; and (4) murder committed by an accomplice during the commission of, attempt of, or flight from certain felonies.”
(from http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/murder)
Abortion is definitely intentional. It is a killing that results from the intent to do serious bodily injury to the fetus. It is a killing that results from a depraved heart or extreme recklessness (which from the same source is defined as “Rashness; heedlessness; wanton conduct. The state of mind accompanying an act that either pays no regard to its probably or possibly injurious consequences, or which, though foreseeing such consequences, persists in spite of such knowledge.”), and, by paying for someone to kill their child, definitely uses an accomplice (which, in the case of PP in many cases being caught red-handed attempting to cover-up statutory rape definitely puts it into the “other felony” category.)
Elisabeth, you get high fives for your last two posts! They’re both exactly what I was thinking, although the murder one was a lot more in depth. :)
If abortion isn’t murder then what are you ending? A pregnancy? Well what’s a woman pregnant with? A developing human baby that continues to develop even after he or she is out of the womb into adulthood. I’d venture to say even adults continue developing–their minds, their bodies. Life is a process of developing and growing. It doesn’t end after birth–it continues.
I know some adults who’s brains keep expanding through learning because they keep learning things–in fact that’s the majority of the people I know–even after they leave college.
So, if a fetus (which someone pointed out means “young one” or at least a developing young one–Check Merriam-Webster Dictionary Online here and Oxford Online Dictionary Here –in fact Oxford even says “in particular an unborn human baby more than eight weeks after conception” emphasis added) then it stands to reason that ending a pregnancy of a developing human being is ending a human being’s life, THUS MURDER. Thus NOT opinion–FACT.
Oh and just to be clear the Oxford Online Dictionary defines pregnant as “having a child or young developing in the uterus”. (Before that it says “of a woman or female animal”) So obviously it IS a baby. Here’s the link to definition of pregnant: http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_us1280321#m_en_us1280321
So since it’s a child/young “developing in the uterus” then obviously that would be killing a developing human life–which is what abortion does since abortion aborts (ends) the pregnancy and the only way to do that when it’s not a miscarriage is to end the life that’s developing–which, as we all know to end another human life is called murder.
Under modern statutes in the United States abortion is not murder. So umpteen definitions of murder just don’t apply.
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=pregnant
[adj] carrying developing offspring within the body or being about to produce new life
[adj] filled with or attended with; “words fraught with meaning”; “an incident fraught with danger”; “a silence pregnant with suspense”
[adj] rich in significance or implication; “a meaning look”; “pregnant with meaning”
“having a child or young developing in the uterus”. So obviously it IS a baby.’ – how is a developing child or young a baby? You made that leap to a conclusion, not the dictionary.
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=baby
[n] a very young mammal; “baby rabbits”
[n] (slang) sometimes used as a term of address for attractive young women
[n] the youngest member of a group (not necessarily young); “the baby of the family”; “the baby of the Supreme Court”
[n] a very young child (birth to 1 year) who has not yet begun to walk or talk; “isn’t she too young to have a baby?”
It’s all semantics really.
And under Dred Scott black people weren’t human either. Your point? Because if you’re going to claim infallibility of the Supreme Court, that won’t pass muster.
Your statement makes no sense Elisabeth.
‘under Dred Scott’? – who was ‘under’ Dred Scott?
‘black people weren’t human either’ – where does that figure in the Dred Scott case?
‘Because if you’re going to claim infallibility of the Supreme Court, that won’t pass muster.’ – firstly, says who? Secondly, be careful what you wish for.
Note the historic movements forward – end of slavery, women getting the vote, women in politics, blacks getting the vote, blacks in politics, women being allowed bank accounts, women getting loans, women having the right to choose, equal pay for women (we wish!), and soon – gay marriage. See the trend? Freedom, personal responsibility.
cranium,
It’s not a “leap” as you put it. It just makes sense. Young developing human beings are often called babies.
I never was pregnant with anything but a human child. I knew that. I went through the pregnancy. I gave birth to a human child.
I made no “leap” (as you so put it). I’ve experienced pregnancy and birth. I know what happens. And believe me–I never thought that the developing being in me was anything but a human child–a baby.
My child was always that, a human child. In fact, since children are still growing into adulthood, they’re STILL developing, but that’s never changed what they are. They are human beings.
It may be “semantics” to you, but it hasn’t changed what IS. I don’t care how much you or any dictionary or law maker tries to change things or use verbal gymnastics to do so, you can’t change what is true. And what is true is that the being inside a human mother developing and growing is, in fact, a human being (unless by some weird twist, human women can give birth to other species; but as far as I know human sperm plus human egg only renders human being not a cat or a dog, but a human being).
Does basic reading comprehension fail you? Obviously, so I’ll endeavor to simplify it for you.
“Under Dred Scott”, meaning, quite obviously, when Dred Scott was the law of the land, the ruling of the Supreme Court.
Dred Scott was a decision which, by a 7 to 2 majority, the Supreme Court ruled that black people were property.
Says who? Generally speaking, precedent is a huge thing in legal cases. However, in this case, the ruling was effectively reversed by the 14th Amendment. So, you see, even the Supreme Court is subject to checks and balances.
As to the rest of your post, you are obviously unaware that it was conservatives that caused each of those accomplishments…. not liberals.
MLK Jr. was a pro-life Republican.
Lyndon B. Johnson was only able to get civil rights legislation passed because of the help of the Republicans in Congress. The Democrats attempted to stonewall its passage.
The leaders of the suffragette movement were conservative pro-lifers as well.
Susan B. Anthony: “Guilty? Yes. No matter what the motive, love of ease, or a desire to save from suffering the unborn innocent, the woman is awfully guilty who commits the deed. It will burden her conscience in life, it will burden her soul in death; But oh, thrice guilty is he who drove her to the desperation which impelled her to the crime!”
Victoria Woodhull: “The rights of children as individuals begin while yet they remain the foetus.” AND “Every woman knows that if she were free, she would never bear an unwished-for child, nor think of murdering one before its birth.”
Alice Paul: “Abortion is the ultimate exploitation of women.”
You claim that abortion brings freedom… if so it is a brief and illusory sort of freedom. As for personal responsibility, that would have best been practiced prior to conception. Once conception has occurred, the mother has a responsibility beyond her own person, extending to that of her child’s person.
Oh, and for those who don’t think it is a baby….
Mother In Texas, again you have resorted to opinion. Abortion has always taken place and always will – until contraception is perfected perhaps. Trying to turn back abortion is like trying to take the vote away from women.
Ahem after your little failure to understand English yesterday Elisabeth?
“Under Dred Scott”, meaning, quite obviously, when Dred Scott was the law of the land, the ruling of the Supreme Court.’ – I still find your language strange. ‘Under’? ‘when Dred Scott was the law of the land” – I had no idea he was a sheriff, judge, politician, statute or lawyer.
Yes they ruled that black people were property, not much different to how the church used to see women, some still do. But where is the evidence that they said they weren’t human?
MLK Jr. was a pro-life Republican – and a person of strong faith, a pastor.
Susan B. Anthony – Quaker, also believed in temperance – do you want prohibition back? Have you read her reasons for being against abortion?
Victoria Woodhull – revivalist. My what a varied life she led!
Alice Paul – Quaker.
Elisabeth, all these ladies lived 100 to 150 years ago. The changes in society, medical practices and procedures, equality, technology etc. etc. have been astronomical since then. I really don’t think they add value in the current circumstances.
You obviously are being deliberately obtuse, so I’m done. Buh, bye, troll.
Actually, Elisabeth, abortions on cats and dogs are very common. Often a dog or cat is pregnant when they get fixed, and the abortion is part of the ‘fixing’ procedure. That doesn’t bother me any more than human abortions do.
I didn’t watch the video, it would make me ill. I have a cat and two dogs and they are the joy of my life.
Your normal doesn’t work for me and many others. The difference is, I’m not trying to make you live my ‘normal’.
Actually – you are. In the worst possible way. You voted.
None of those other medical procedures you describe actually destroys a completely integrated, living human being. That’s being disingenuous. You even wrap it up in bogus wording talking about “choice”. Avoidance of facts.
Whatever stage of development, the unborn is still a child of one woman and one man. So “choice” is the willful destruction of their unborn child: an innocent human being.
As it is morally wrong to kill innocent human beings , that “choice” is morally wrong. It resorts to “might makes right” without any logical ethical foundation. Blackmun’s Roe argument is circular. Don’t bother bringing it up.
There’s only two ways you might validate your argument:
– provide scientific evidence the unborn are not human, without invalidating the definition of what makes you human. You cannot create a test you apply to others, but are unwilling to undertake – that’s discrimination.
– logically and with evidence demonstrate that human rights are intrinsic to a human person, independent of the human flesh which is destroyed during an abortion. Again, the evidence and logic cannot invalidate your own existence.
Saying abortion is not murder is living in world of legal abstracts, and not reality. Actually, that doesn’t acknowledge fetal homicide laws on the books in over 35 states. Why have an exception for consent? Manipulating the law and calling other human beings unworthy of protections under that law is despicable and immoral.
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you ” is the antithesis of “Might makes right”.
Choose that you wish to live by, but don’t be a coward and claim the other when you need it most.
Erin – you’re a hypocritical coward.
Unfortunately, many farms become dumping grounds for unwanted animals.
Yep. We live in the country.
No matter who the law wants to decree as less than a full person, a human being is defined through biology, and that’s something no one can change.
Personally, I think the reason abortion is more acceptable to some people than the slaughter of born children or animals is that they don’t have to listen to unborn children scream in pain, or watch them try to get away from abortion instruments. If you don’t have to see a thing, you can deny the horror of it.
This whole “fetuses don’t look human” thing, besides being untrue, is a pretty sorry excuse. If I’m in a serious car accident tomorrow and end up horribly disfigured, is it okay to kill me because I don’t “look human”? Or is it not okay, because I’m able to scream at you to get away from me with that weapon and that’ll haunt your nightmares if you do kill me?
The principle behind the “morality” of abortion is, “I’m bigger and stronger than you, so if I decide you don’t deserve to live, there’s nothing you can do about it.”
Marauder,
Amen.
Abby Johnson watched a baby on ultrasound struggle to get away from the abortionists instruments of killing. She saw for herself what abortion does to a growing, fully alive preborn human being. She left her job as a Planned Parenthood director soon after.
Easier to ignore the facts of abortion atrocities then deal with it.
Cranium says:
Elisabeth, all these ladies lived 100 to 150 years ago. The changes in society, medical practices and procedures, equality, technology etc. etc. have been astronomical since then. I really don’t think they add value in the current circumstances.
Barring the changes in society pro-aborts ignore all advancements in technology that prove the unborn are more than just a glob of tissue, so I can see why you dont think they add value. You will always ignore what proves you wrong. Ignorance is bliss after all – even your own manufactured ignorance.
Abby Johnson watched a baby on ultrasound struggle to get away from the abortionists instruments of killing. She saw for herself what abortion does to a growing, fully alive preborn human being. She left her job as a Planned Parenthood director soon after.
Abby Johnson’s “conversion story” has been exposed as a bunch of lies. In reality, she was in big trouble with her bosses for being incompetent. They were about to fire her and met with her shortly before her “conversion” about her job performance. She even posted on Facebook about how worried she was about losing her job.
And the abortion she claimed she witnessed never even happened. She said it happened one Saturday in September, and the patient was a black woman who was 13 weeks pregnant. When someone bothered to check, they discovered that no such abortion had ever happened during the ENTIRE MONTH she claimed it did, let alone that particular day. Also, as many have pointed out, her claim that this was the first ultrasound she’d ever seen was a big fat whopper. There’s no way she had been the director of Planned Parenthood for years and never witnessed the procedure.
Abby Johnston is a liar and an opportunist who was about to get fired from a job, so she decided to capitalize on it. Her “conversion story” has turned out to be quite lucrative, with speaking gigs and whatnot.
Source please.
Unless it’s Planned Parenthood then don’t bother.
When I mention my abortion story Biggz calls me a liar. Par for the course.
reality
September 9th, 2010 at 10:29 am
I’ve got to agree with Carla. Claims like that need support. Show me documentation.
Cranium,
If my position is “opinion” then yours must be, too, because I have yet to see any real facts that abortion is perfectly fine. And, using your reasoning anything that doesn’t have any facts to back it up is “opinion” (am I correct in deducing that?)
Well, my pro-life stance is NOT just opinion. Read on:
I can cite sources that say abortion causes problem. For one, here’s an M.D. who has linked artificial contraceptives and abortions to breast cancer. Here’s links (although contraceptives are NOT the subject of this post, that’s part of Dr. Kahlenborn’s findings):
http://www.lifeissues.net/writers/kah/kah_09chap7canabor1.html
As well as further pamphlets on the subject by the same M.D.: http://www.omsoul.com/catalog/kahlenborn-md-chris-m042.html
If abortion was so perfectly “normal” and “natural” (as some other commenter put it) then why would an M.D. say there’s a link to breast cancer?
Why would any doc have a problem with it if abortion was just fine?
It stands to reason it’s not just my so-called opinion, but fact.
To abort something means to end it, and to end a pregnancy you have to end the life of the developing baby. (vacuum cleaner up the woman’s dialated cervix–that’s precisely what happens. Don’t believe me, go here–to WebMD which is probably not a pro-life site–but I never asked: http://women.webmd.com/d-and-c-dilation-and-curettage or D&E: http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/dilation-and-evacuation-de-for-abortion). If you think it’s prefectly “normal” to dilate the cervix before it’s time for the baby to come out, you’re mistaken. The cervix is closed off as part of the way the body helps protect the baby until said human being is ready for birth. (That’s practically basic pregnancy info, by the way).
Here’s medical doctors who have quit doing abortions (some for reasons of conscious and if there was nothing wrong with abortion they wouldn’t have stopped) (In fact, I provided the following MD names and links on another article on this blog, but you can read them here:
Or you can go to my comment here: https://www.jillstanek.com/2010/09/pro-abortion-des-moines-register-editorial-board-admits-telemed-abortions-are-illegal/#comments
Dr. Anthony Levatino: http://prolifeaction.org/providers/levatino.php
Dr. Beverly McMillian: http://prolifeaction.org/providers/mcmillan.php
Dr. MacArthur Hill: http://prolifeaction.org/providers/hill.php
And here:
Dr. Bernard N. Nathanson: http://www.prolife.com/NATHAN.htm
Perhaps this will clear up any confusion you have about this being “opinion” if not, well, more’s the pity.
I don’t know if I mentioned it on this post, but I HAVE been pregnant and I HAVE given birth. I know the heart beat starts early and what that sounds like. I’ve seen ultrasounds. I’ve seen both regular ultrasounds AND the 4-D ones. I know what babies in-uteral look like because I’ve seen my own child before he was born. So I know what I was pregnant with wasn’t merely a “blob of tissues” but a developing human being–my child–my HUMAN BEING child.
Like I said, if you can’t grasp this, more’s the pity.
P.S. Cranium I’ve provided sources to back up what you call is my “opinion” where are YOUR sources. I don’t consider PP a source, by the way…they have lied and I’ve seen what they say. So try some other source. Give me an MD. I gave you more than one.
Abortion is currently not murder, but not because fetuses aren’t human beings. (They are.)
“Murder” is a legal term. If it is not illegal to kill a certain human being, then the killing of said human being is not murder, at that time. When pro-lifers say that “abrotion is murder,” what they really mean is that they believe it should be outlawed. If and when abortion IS outlawed, it will THEN be murder.
http://feministsforchoice.com/abby-johnsons-story-doesnt-hold-water.htm
A few days after she claimed she witnessed the ultrasound and had an “epiphany” (remember, she gave the media the date), she went on a radio show and vigorously defended the clinic. It was only when she was about to get fired that she suddenly realized how horrible abortion is. Or more likely, she was about to lose her job and realized her “conversion story” would be a cash cow. A high-profile PP director joins the Coalition for Life? Sounds like a guaranteed book deal and speaking career.
At my request, the staff at the Bryan clinic examined patient records from September 26, the day Johnson claims to have had her conversion experience, and spoke with the physician who performed abortions on that date. According to Planned Parenthood, there is no record of an ultrasound-guided abortion performed on September 26. The physician on duty told the organization that he did not use an ultrasound that day, nor did Johnson assist on any abortion procedure. “Planned Parenthood can assure you that no abortion patients underwent an ultrasound-guided abortion on September 26,” said a spokesperson. It’s difficult to imagine that Johnson simply got the date wrong; September 12 was the only other day that month that the clinic performed surgical abortions.
Could clinic staff and the physician be mistaken? The Texas Department of State Health Services requires abortion providers to fill out a form documenting basic information about each procedure performed at a clinic. This document is known as the Induced Abortion Report Form. The Bryan clinic reported performing fifteen surgical abortions on September 26. Johnson has consistently said that the patient in question was thirteen weeks pregnant, which is plausible, since thirteen weeks is right at the cusp of when physicians will consider using an ultrasound to assist with the procedure. Yet none of the patients listed on the report for that day were thirteen weeks pregnant; in fact, none were beyond ten weeks.
Her story was a complete lie. The only other possibility–which I don’t accept–is that she got confused, and the abortion actually occurred weeks or months before she said it did. I think we can all see right through that excuse, since she consistently claimed it was September 26th…until she got caught lying. If you’re having such a life-changing epiphany, you’re not going to get confused and think the epiphany occurred in September, when it actually happened in August or earlier. Obviously, the only life-changing event she experienced was being on the brink of unemployment. So by “converting,” she gained a new, lucrative job, and got revenge on her former employer at the same time. Nice work if you can get it.
iF Cecile Richard became pro-life, pro-choicers would find it a fishy story too.
Well has anyone asked her? I tried to go to the Texas Monthly page that the bloggers cited as their source and you have to be a member to read the whole article.
You can go to Abby Johnson’s site and contact her via a form, which is what I just did.
Here’s the link: http://www.abbyjohnson.org/
Also, PP has been known to withold information regarding circumstances and encourage people to lie.
Don’t believe me? Lila Rose has gone undercover and exposed them: http://liveaction.org/
Chris-
I believe one of the first rules of this board is to attack ideas, not people, correct? I have no idea what spurned such bile from you when my only intent of posting was to correct Elisabeth’s incorrect assumption that dogs and cats don’t have abortions.
An opinion piece by Feminists for Choice? Mmmm. ok.
If you were to watch my abortion story on video(youtube abortion and forgiveness that’s me in the brown sweater)you could watch that and say I am a liar too. How does that change my experience with abortion? How does that refute the facts of my experience?
How does saying someone’s story is fishy become fact?
It is easier to call someone a liar than to upset the applecart of your proabortion stance.
Everytime the pro-abortion advocates get uncomfortable they either accuse us of lies, or they lash out at their straw men, or they do verbal acrobatics.
You know how plants will grow even when you’ve covered a surface with black top or cement? Life is like that, you know. It will always triumph. You can call it evolution, nature, or even put a religious label on it, but life will always triumph. You can’t grow a species on contraception, abortion, and in vitro fertilization. Everyone knows a zygote is a fetus is a baby is a human being. Everyone knows it’s not an opinion but a fact. Everyone knows that abortion is murder and eventually the laws of the land will catch back up with reality. Everyone knows life will triumph long after the death mongers have reached their desired end. Life breaks free, life always wins.
Awhile ago, a Chihuahua allegedly got a Great Dane bitch pregnant. The family of the dog (which was a pedigree) opted for an abortion. So sadly, we’ll never get to see what a Great Dane/Chi mix looks like.
I did see a Golden Retriever/Bassett Hound mix, though. It had the short, squat Bassett body with long, flowing, retriever hair. Cute, but strange!
No, Carla, expressing your opinions and emotions about abortion doesn’t count as lying. Telling a story about an abortion that medical records show never happened DOES count as lying.
Planned Parenthood gets accused of “killing babies for profit.” Even if it’s true, I’m always amazed by the amount of profiteering, lying, and self-promotion among pro-lifers. I keep getting the sense that most of them aren’t in it because they love fetuses. Abby Johnson gets a high-paying career out of her fictional conversion story. As I’ve mentioned before, Christian fanatics set up “maternity homes” that function as lucrative adoption rings–they take in unwed pregnant girls, convince them not to have an abortion, brainwash and beat them down psychologically, and then snatch their babies and sell them to Christian couples for $20,000. That’s a lot more money than abortion clinics will ever make on a single procedure.
In my experience, most people in the “post-abortive” community are psychologically abusive and master manipulators. They’ll refuse to help you with your real problems. Instead, they try to force you to blame all your problems (abusive relationships, substance abuse, etc) on “killing your baby,” even if you were an alcoholic or a battered woman BEFORE the abortion. Then they don’t relent until you convert to hard-core Christianity and agree to start bullying other women/spreading the gospel (which are often one in the same). The goal isn’t to help women cope with an abortion. It’s to take emotionally vulnerable women and brainwash them with political and religious propaganda. This is their tactic with women who want to give birth and those who don’t–they use the same strategy to break down pregnant women and steal their babies for adoption.
In my experience, women who have abortions do so because of problems that already existed–a bad relationship, drug addiction, etc. Don’t go to “post-abortion” counselors who have an agenda. Go to real professionals who won’t try to browbeat you into religious conversion.
That’s messed up! I just watched maybe 30 seconds. That girl was seriously throwing those poor little puppies! If they hadn’t drowned, the impact would have surely killed them.
Erin – go back and read your own statement.
You believe abortions of humans is perfectly fine – and it doesn’t “bother” you. You then got squeamish about watching a video of puppies being tossed into a river, because similar dogs are the “joy of your life”.
So you demonstrate a cowardice – not wanting to see what you believe might be an upsetting video, yet you defend the horrific practice of human abortion because it’s part of a “fixing” procedure.
You show absolutely no empathy whatsoever that the shredding destruction of human beings at 12 weeks of development (3 months) is painful for pro-lifers to consider and know is happening – knowing we are currently legally powerless to stop it. And you’re offended?
What of the father who begs to save his child from an abortion-minded mother – he has no lawful recourse. And she – the mother – acts like the girl in the video. She’s “fixing the problem”. So was the girl in the video.
I can’t imagine you having watched “Hard Truth” or even understanding the full consequences of abortion and it’s impact upon others – due to not wanting to go there – afraid of what you might find. Do yourself a favor and watch them – learn what abortion does in reality.
You show hypocrisy when you defend the indefensible, and cowardice because your personal sensitivities cause you to run from the truth.
Abortion isn’t merely an idea – it’s a reality that perverts lives.
Reality,
You didn’t answer my questions but went on and on about the “other things” that upset you. Maternity homes that do this and counselors that do that…….more bunny trails? Probably.
I am a Rachel’s Vineyard facilitator. I help other women and men come to grips with their abortion experiences and find their way to healing. I have had training and I have the experience that drives me to help others.
http://www.rachelsvineyard.org
Out of curiosity what is your experience with abortion? Have you had one? If you are in need of help please email me. I can get you to abortion recovery services in your area.
carla@jillstanek.com
Chris, that wasn’t what I meant at all. When I referred to ‘fixing’ I was talking about how when cats or dogs get fixed, if they’re carrying a litter at the time that litter is aborted. “Getting fixed” is how I refer to cats or dogs getting neutered or spayed. I wasn’t referring to the human procedure. And I admit easily killing a puppy or kitten with a full and functioning nervous system and the capacity to feel pain upsets me much more than a human abortion occurring before the nervous system is functioning on a level necessary for pain processing and awareness.
Erin,
Putting aside whether or not the developing baby in uteral has developed a full nervous system or not, it’s still a life.
Out-of-the-womb children are still developing and growing.
There’s really no difference…they’re still lives no matter what stage of development they’re in.
If they feel pain that’s just one more reason to be against abortion, but not the only reason.
Reality’s post at 12:42 only proves our points: when uncomfortable, build more straw men!! ‘Reality’ reminds me of the busy bees from the old Davy and Goliath show.
Everyone knows life will triumph. Everyone knows abortion is wrong. Even the atheists know a zygote equals an embryo equals a fetus equals a baby equals a toddler equals a child equals a teenager = an adult = a human being. Everyone knows.
Question….this was raised way way up on the thread. But if you took a picture of a clump of cells, how is that disrespecting the woman who aborted? Could a woman see the picture and say “Oh thats MY blood clot and cell ball!”
They don’t do it because they don’t want to admit to the world that aborted fetuses have arms, legs, fingers, toes and FACES.
Reality..you’ve never been through a pregnancy have you? Clearly not with your absurd comments. I have. My child at my first ultrasound was 5 weeks post-conception. He had arms, legs, a huge head, a FACE and a beating heart. He did not look like a shrimp.
I was born premie. What’s the difference between me and the unborn child who was concieved on the same day as I was conceived? I was acknowledged a baby, but pro-ab’s want to believe (and oh how badly they want to believe!) that the other child, the other human offspring, is not actually a baby even though we are at exactly the same stage of development.
The tenacity of pro-ab’s to cling to lies and insist on their murderous points exactly mimics religious zeal.
Erin
September 9th, 2010 at 11:55 am
Chris-
I believe one of the first rules of this board is to attack ideas, not people, correct? I have no idea what spurned such bile from you when my only intent of posting was to correct Elisabeth’s incorrect assumption that dogs and cats don’t have abortions.
————————–
Actually, what I said was that seeing one would upset me just as much. Then I asked “who does that”… you did answer the who does that part… but my statement was about my being made uncomfortable by the destruction of unborn life. Just wanted to clarify.
What of the father who begs to save his child from an abortion-minded mother – he has no lawful recourse.
Boo hoo. Men don’t legally own women they impregnate! The horrors! Since pro-lifers want to ban abortion in the case of rape and give men the right to veto the abortion decision, all an abusive guy has to do is rape a woman, get her pregnant, and then he owns her. Do stepfathers who sexually abuse their stepdaughters get legal control over the abortion decision? Just wondering.
There’s a bill pending in Ohio that requires women to get written permission from the father before aborting. Are you a wife beater whose woman has had enough? Instead of just beating her, threaten her into sex, get her pregnant, and refuse to consent to the abortion, even if she never wanted your baby and wants to leave. Problem solved! She’ll have a much harder time leaving you now, won’t she? Especially if you control the money and the assets.
Conservatives also tend to complain about overuse of restraining orders and mothers getting full custody, so maybe they can fix that problem too. Men can get women pregnant to ensure that they can never get away.
The end goals of the pro-life movement combined with social conservatism will return women to second-class status.
A man does not legally own a woman he impregnates. That is true. It is his child too. Surely, you know that reality.
By the way, birth control sabotage and tricking women into getting pregnant is a common tactic for wife-beaters. (Google “birth control sabotage and abuse”) It’s a great way of controlling your wife’s life and forcing her to submit to you. First, if she has a baby, she’ll have a much harder time leaving and supporting herself, especially if she has no outside help. Second, abusive men use the kids in order to stay in the woman’s life, getting court orders for visitation and such. Forced pregnancy is an excellent way for men to control women.
There’s also the emotionally abusive aspect, which these men understand very well. Let’s say the woman has the baby and gets a restraining order (which conservatives also aren’t fond of, seeing them as a feminist plot to undermine men’s right to control women and children). He can then start playing the “how can you keep me from my children?” card. And there’s a good chance the kids will want a relationship with their father, even if he’s a wife-beater.
Banning abortion=subjugation of women.
Great avoidance.
And I admit easily killing a puppy or kitten with a full and functioning nervous system and the capacity to feel pain upsets me much more than a human abortion occurring before the nervous system is functioning on a level necessary for pain processing and awareness.
Ability to feel physical pain is not what makes us human. Your statements completely avoid any empathy to pain others might feel from abortion.
I think you provide a good illustration of what CT was referring to:
September 8th, 2010 at 1:39 pm
“Reality,” there’s this wonderful thing called the legal system, which is capable of taking away parental rights, putting abusers in jail, settling tort cases, and other such marvels. I’m sure mothers who have left abusive situations are glad to have their children as a source of love and caring. Besides, if a man’s determined to get a woman pregnant so she’ll “have” to stay with him, wouldn’t discovering that she had an abortion probably make him more rageful and abusive? Between the financial and physical aspects, hiding an abortion from an intimate partner is not an easy thing.
Carolyn Jessop managed to escape from the FLDS with her eight children and win full custody of them. It wasn’t easy by any stretch, but advocating the mindset that pregnant women in abusive situations will never be free unless they have an abortion is both dishonest and disempowering. Guess what, abused pregnant women! You think you have a choice about having a baby? Guess again, because you’ll never be free if you have a kid!
As I’ve mentioned before, Christian fanatics set up “maternity homes” that function as lucrative adoption rings–they take in unwed pregnant girls, convince them not to have an abortion, brainwash and beat them down psychologically, and then snatch their babies and sell them to Christian couples for $20,000. That’s a lot more money than abortion clinics will ever make on a single procedure.
I had to laugh when I read this because it’s just ridiculous. Do you really, really believe this nonsense? For NARAL, etc., to be in such a tizzy about the crisis pregnancy homes means we’re being effective. Love it.
I would like to meet all the prolifers who are getting rich from $20k adoptions, because most of the prolife people I know are middle class or below.
The vast majority of women in these homes KEEP their babies. In fact, in one the homes in the Philadelphia area, there is a hallway called “toddler’s run” because of all the young children running and playing there, WITH THEIR MOTHERS. And haven’t you heard? Selling babies is illegal in this country! Sadly, at one time in this country young single moms were forced to relinquish their children to more “acceptable” parents, but this is a thing in the past.
I am one of those Christian “fanatics” that has been involved with maternity homes for YEARS. No one forces these young women to come to them, no one beats them down and certainly no one “brainwashes” or forces them to place their children for adoption. I am there to help women who want to have their children, the last thing I want to do is cause them more grief during an already difficult time. Our clients are free to leave when they please.
Most of the pregnancy home clients are in their late teens/early twenties, and the majority of women who place their children for adoption are older, in their late twenties, early thirties, or even older. My son’s birth mom was in her early thirties and had two sons already.
I’ve heard so many crazy things about these homes. One of the most absurd is that we “force” women to give birth without anesthetics as a “punishment” for being pregnant out of wedlock. I also heard that maternity homes try to get young white women to “breed” white babies for white Christian couples. Well, at least here in the city at any given time at least half of the women in our homes are black or Latino. Some black churches even operate maternity homes.
I would be happy to deconstruct any other cruel and malicious lies you care to post about the crisis pregnancy homes, Reality, for as I said, I’ve worked at them. And your hateful rant just reminded me to send in my monthly donation to CareNet.
Women who have abortions are behaving cruelly (to put it nicely), they are not victims. It’s good to finally see someone recognize this.
Reality,
Do you think judges will give a man legal rights to a child if the woman claims the child was conceived during a rape? Do you know of any judges that have done this? Just wondering.
If you do, I believe you hold much responsibility for educating the public with the names of judges who are giving legal custody to rapists.
As I’ve mentioned before, Christian fanatics set up “maternity homes” that function as lucrative adoption rings–they take in unwed pregnant girls, convince them not to have an abortion, brainwash and beat them down psychologically, and then snatch their babies and sell them to Christian couples for $20,000. That’s a lot more money than abortion clinics will ever make on a single procedure.
Growing up, my family worked with an adoption agency. We took in young unwed mothers and they stayed with us through their pregnancy and through their recovery after they had their baby. Several of them thanked my parents. One even wrote me a letter telling me how grateful she was my mother talked her out of an abortion. None of them were abused by us and we didn’t sell their babies for any amount of money–in fact, we didn’t sell their babies at all. We just gave them a safe place to stay, have the pregnancy, and recover after delivery. A caseworker from the adoption agency we worked with would take them to doctor’s appointments and help them select a family to adopt their baby. Some of them even met the families face to face and saw their babies.
Reality,
I would hope that you have the names and addresses of these maternity homes that you claim are doing these horrible things. They need to be reported!!!
Please blow the lid off these horrifying places!!
Austin,
64% of abortions are coerced.
Here read some of these charming stories of forced and coerced abortions.
http://www.abortionconcern.org/stories/index.php?storytype=forced
Reality,
I know a man who was dating this girl. He got her pregnant and she said she was thinking of having an abortion. The guy begged, pleaded and promised to help her in any way he could. She still went ahead and had the abortion.
The guy called me on the phone in tears. I have never heard a man so broken up in all my life. He blamed himself for the entire thing. Not once did he place ANY blame on the woman. My heart broke for this guy.
He would’ve helped that woman to the best of his ability and helped raise his child. He’s fond of kids. He wants to be a dad himself, but he had no rights.
Unfortunately, even men who would be loving fathers or even loving husbands can’t stop a woman from having an abortion. Women can lie about abortions, too. There’s a woman who did it 7 times. (Read the book “Mama! Why Did You Kill Us?)
And she was married to a man who LOVED her and WANTED to have children.
Abortion also gives abusers some power, too. Abortion gives men the “excuse” not to grow up and step up to the plate and be men of honor. It gives them an “out”. No baby, no responsibility. Perhaps the most he’ll be asked to do is pay for the abortion. Or maybe he won’t even have to do that. Either way, he gets away with having sex, getting a woman pregnant and not having to step up to the plate at all.
Men and women are NOT being taught to be people of honor in a society that accepts abortion as perfectly “fine”. We’re using every excuse in the book to not grow up. To let things be all about “me” rather than what’s right.
Maurauder — I have a story similar to this one. I had an acquaintance whose son and his girlfriend were expecting. Neither of the couples’ parents wanted the couple to have the baby — they were both in their early twenties — even though the two young people were excited about it (one of the mothers was Catholic)! This woman (I’m no longer in touch with her) admitted that she ”worked and worked” on her son and the girl until they decided to have the abortion. Now her son was an amateur boxer, a tough kid, and she said that he cried and cried about this. What kind of mother does this to her son? I wish I would have known about this, I could at least have helped them. This kid never got along with his mother and now he can’t stand her. I wonder why?
September 9th, 2010 at 4:36 pm
Austin – I personally know of a case where abortion was strongly coerced by the girl’s mother. She didn’t like her boyfriend and didn’t want her associating with him. The girl wanted to keep the child and marry her boyfriend. The boyfriend wanted that as well. While he was away at school, trying to build a foundation for his family, the mother pushed the girl to abort – and when she finally gave in, both the girl and the boyfriend were emotionally devastated.
The details are pretty ugly and definitely see the girl as being a victim. While the girl’s mother was directly responsible for her actions, I hold the entire pro-choice movement responsible for providing an environment that encourages criminal behavior. (Yes – according to the boyfriend the girl was threatened with serious physical violence.)
So much for choice.
“I hold the entire pro-choice movement responsible for providing an environment that encourages criminal behavior.”
Bravo Chris!!!
I sent an email to Abby Johnson regarding the allegations about her conversion being a fake and here’s what she said:
Thanks for your email. No, I was not going to lose my job. I had just been named Planned Parenthood’s “Employee of the Year.” :) My conversion was genuine. Blessings to you.
Abby Johnson
So I guess PP was, once again, trying to look good and those Feminists For Choice didn’t get it right.
By the way the above post was a direct copy and paste from the email she sent me.
‘Actually – you are. In the worst possible way. You voted.’ – so did you. And you actively participate in trying to force your world view on others. You try to change how people choose to live. I don’t stop you living as you wish, I just say stop trying to change my choices. Your way is offensive (not as in insulting) my way is defensive.
‘Saying abortion is not murder’ is a legal reality.
Mother in Texas – you tell me not to quote sources linked to PP then you provide a string of links which all have ‘pro-life’ in their title! And I do not accept the word of a very small minority of MD’s in regards to the physical impacts of abortion. I believe the greater majority, the ones without a cross to bear.
Wow, Lila Rose! And are you aware that there are also many instances of the lies and misinformation provided by anti-choice clinics?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXr8UazYJgg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiEgnfYPEXQ
I could provide more but seem to have problems posting more than two links in each post.
“Wow, Lila Rose!”
Yeah!!! Ain’t she GREAT Cranium? She is quite a courageous young woman. It’s great knowing that so many youngsters have heard of her and respect what she is exposing at the Planned Parenthoods.
Nice to read what Abby emailed as well. Converts like Abby drive the prodeath crowd even more nuts. . . . .
Videos of “anti choice” clinics do not refute the undercover footage of Lila Rose.
Nice try.
Carla, the fact that anti-choice clinics are constantly caught out lying about the facts and outcomes of abortion is well documented.
Converts like Abby drive the pro-choice crowd into paroxysms of laughter. Her self-defending claims against the documented truths eh.
“Converts like Abby drive the pro-choice crowd into paroxysms of laughter.”
Right. Like I said. The Cuckoo’s Nest.
Thanks for your email. No, I was not going to lose my job. I had just been named Planned Parenthood’s “Employee of the Year.” My conversion was genuine. Blessings to you.
Abby Johnson
She’s such a liar, and the anti-choice dupes continue to fall for it. She was named “Employee of the Year” by Planned Parenthood in 2008. More than a year later, in the fall of 2009, she was slacking at her job and was called to a meeting in Houston to discuss her under-performance. Around this time, she posted on Facebook about how worried she was about being fired.
Then she was placed on “performance review.” This is basically the pre-firing stage, when your employer gives you one more chance to shape up your act. Three days later, she walked into the Coalition for Life office and announced she’d had a “conversion.”
The abortion she claimed caused the conversion never happened. Planned Parenthood released all their abortion records after her miraculous “conversion.” She said she watched an ultrasound-guided 13-week abortion on a black woman on September 26th. (This PP only does abortions two Saturdays a month, so the dates are hard to confuse.) There were no ultrasound-guided abortions IN THE ENTIRE MONTH OF SEPTEMBER. On the date she claimed it happened, none of the patients were past 10 weeks, and the only black patient that day was 6 weeks. (6 week abortions do not require ultrasound guidance.)
Also, one of the first tip-offs that she was lying was her claim that she had never seen an ultrasound-guided abortion. Planned Parenthood employees saw this as a huge red flag even before they discovered that the abortion that caused her “conversion” was fictional. It was extremely implausible that a PP Director had never seen an ultrasound-guided abortion in several years of work.
So Abby Johnson is a liar and a huckster. She saw an opportunity to get rich by selling her sob story and aligning with politically powerful people. And abortion doctors are in it for the money?
I know plenty of directors of hospitals who NEVER get into the hands-on aspects of medical care. They are far more about finances and administrative details… they aren’t hired as medical practitioners.
As to the rest, if you’re going to call someone a liar you need proof. Screen shots of said Facebook posts are where? (And I have a friend who is a photoshop expert, so please don’t think you’re going to pass off a fake as real.)
Cran,
Many of us here volunteer for, are the directors of or on the board for Pregnancy Resource Centers.
Please point me to the well documented lies that are told. I heart documentation.
You are barking up the wrong tree. But I think you already know that.
The outcome of abortion is a dead baby and a wounded mother. That is well documented too.
“she was slacking at her job and was called to a meeting in Houston to discuss her under-performance.”
I wonder what “under-performance” means at a kill mill?
Abby must not have been meeting her quota of dead children!
Here you are Carla:
http://www.abortionaccess.info/chooselie.htm
http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/new_video_crisis_pregnancy_centers/
http://www.naralva.org/action/~1.shtml
and yes I know you will say they are biased but then so is the Abby Johnson, Lila Rose and Lia Mills stuff.
Baby:
[n] a project of personal concern to someone; “this project is his baby”
[n] a very young mammal; “baby rabbits”
[n] (slang) sometimes used as a term of address for attractive young women
[n] the youngest member of a group (not necessarily young); “the baby of the family”; “the baby of the Supreme Court”
[n] a very young child (birth to 1 year) who has not yet begun to walk or talk; “isn’t she too young to have a baby?”
http://www.hyperdictionary.com/search.aspx?define=baby
Therefore, the documentation in regards to ‘dead baby’ is debatable and the documentation for ‘wounded mother’ is even more speculative.
Cranium – And you actively participate in trying to force your world view on others.
Absolutely! I and many others work hard at it.
However, we don’t kill innocent humans or profit from other’s seeming misfortune in the process – unlike the abortionists and parasites you help empower.
For someone who claims to be wise and logical, you give the strong impression of being woefully ignorant of how civics actually work in the real world. But we all know that’s just an act. It’s pretty funny actually. I love the way you play the victim. It’s almost as if you studied under Saul Alinksy – or one of his prodigies!
Who’s your master cranium? Where did you learn those mad victim skilz?
Sorry. Amanda Marcotte is one of your sources?? Gads. I didn’t say biased. I said Gads!! I wouldn’t trust her opinion of Chicken Nuggets.
You need the dictionary to figure out “dead baby” and “wounded mother?”
Try Silent No More, Operation Outcry, Fatherhood Forever, Priests for Life, After Abortion.
Oh. There’s me. One dead baby for me and one wounded woman. Me.
‘Absolutely! I and many others work hard at it’ – so do the islamofascists, as did hitler, mao and pol pot – hm, sound familiar? I would not put you and your cohorts in that category however, far from it. But beware the mindset.
So you are a self-appointed crusader Chris? On what basis, other than your own beliefs, can you justify such a stance. Really. What gives you that privilege?
‘unlike the abortionists and parasites you help empower.’ – It’s actually the rights of women that I support. ‘parasites’?, how opinionated is that?
‘woefully ignorant of how civics actually work in the real world’ – since abortion is legal and occurring and the rights of gays are increasing and contraception is improving all the time and the influence of religion is waning – would you care to elucidate as to how you justify this statement?
I am my own master. I think for myself. I accept responsibility for myself. I encourage others to do the same.
Carla – and you think I would trust the opinion of Abby Johnson?
‘You need the dictionary to figure out “dead baby” and “wounded mother?”’ – no, but apparently you do. It supports what I’ve been saying, not your opinion. Naturally you will be able to find dictionary descriptions that support your view. But that’s the point, as I said ‘the documentation is debatable’. So I’m reconciled to you claiming that abortionists are ‘baby killers’ but there is no reason for me to agree.
Abby’s experience is not her opinion. My abortion experience is not my opinion. It just is.
Goodnight, Cran. Sleep tight.
I personally don’t know Abby Johnson. I was friends with her on facebook but removed her because I felt she was attacking other pro-life organizations unfairly and would not listen when I and others tried to show her that what she was posting was not fair. So, that being said, I HIGHLY DOUBT that Planned Parenthood was going to fire her. You do NOT go from being “employee of the year” to “You’re on performance review and going to be fired” in one year. Pulease. Thats absurd.
PP released abortion records? YEAH RIGHT! What about, gasp, WOMEN’S PRIVACY! PP won’t even let their financial records be audited but they are supposedly releasing confidential abortion records? That just made me laugh!
I do believe Abby’s conversion was genuine. And you pro-aborts just can’t stand when your own leave you and join the side of life. But Abby joined the ranks of Carol Everett, Norma McCorvey, Anthony Levatino (sp?) Bernard Nathanson and many many other abortion doctors and workers who finally realized that abortion is the willful destruction of developing human children.
http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html
Cranium, that link doesn’t address what we have been asking for: evidence of your claims that Abby Johnson lied.
Mother in Texas – you tell me not to quote sources linked to PP then you provide a string of links which all have ‘pro-life’ in their title
Well I can’t help that the Pro-Life Action League posted several stories of Medical Doctors changing their position from performing abortions to becoming Pro-Life. That’s just one of the sources.
You could go to One More Soul website which has pamphlets from Dr. Kahlenborn regarding breast cancer and abortion research. I think I provided the link somewhere.
The reason I said no PP is because they’ve been caught in lies quite often. But you know, like I said, check out Lila Rose, she went INTO PP clinics and caught those counselors in lies. Lying about what developmental stages (Live Action caught them lying about when the heartbeat started–and I actually heard my son’s heart beat pretty early on in the pregnancy, so that doesn’t surprise me).
PP has been caught over and over again. It wouldn’t surprise me if they were caught more often in a lie than a pro-life place.
I’ve been to PP’s website, Cranium. It’s full of lies. They claim that the Pro-Life Action League follows their clinics around and harrasses them. I checked into that, and it’s not true. I also read material on their website, the majority of it was half-truths and malarky. So, I KNOW a lot of what they say.
I’ve read about the risks with abortion. I’ve talked to people who have had abortions.
One lady who was forced into having an abortion told me “I wouldn’t wish this on my worst enemy.”
I’ve had at least one man cry on the phone to me when his girlfriend (who eventually became his ex) aborted his baby. And yet, he never blamed the woman. He only blamed himself. Yet, he was the one who begged her NOT to have the abortion. he was the one who offerred to help her with the pregnancy and baby. He was the one who said he would do everything in his power to help so that she would have the support she needed. After all, the pre-born human being was his child. But nothing he said, nothing he offerred was enough for her. She had the abortion anyway, and he ended up in tears on the phone with me saying it was all his fault.
I’ve looked at things doctors have written, women who have regretted abortions, help women have been offerred so they wouldn’t have to have an abortion.
So, honestly, what do you expect me to say? After I’ve witnessed all that pain, the agony, the suffering men and women go through when it comes to abortion. When I’ve learned HOW abortions are done, and read stories by medical doctors who used to do abortions but don’t anymore how the industry works, do you honestly think I could be ever convinced to believe your side was right or even factual?
I’ve seen the facts. I know what’s out there. Like I said: I’ve read how abortions are done. I’ve been on WebMD and other sites.
So don’t give me “it’s just your opinon” and all that. I’ve backed up what I know with more than just the Pro-Life Action League’s site. I put up what Dr. Kathlenborn has learned through research. I’ve put up what D&E and D&C abortion are–linking information from WebMD (which I don’t think is a pro-life site, but I don’t know that for sure).
I posted the link to the book called “Mama! Why Did You Kill Us?”
Yet, you’re still convinced that my position is merely “opinion”.
Want me to get another medical doctor’s facts? Just say the word and I’ll send out the email requesting the info.
Oh and this doesn’t have Pro-Life in the address link:
http://www.abortionfacts.com/literature/literature_904AO.asp
There’s other websites out there, and I can find them for you if you feel you must have them.
cranium
September 9th, 2010 at 11:15 pm
http://mypage.direct.ca/w/writer/anti-tales.html
I went to the link, Cranium. And yes, I see that those people were hypocrits, however, that doesn’t change the fact that I have never condoned an abortion, nor have I had one.
Also, it doesn’t prove your opinion that Abby Johnson lied.
This seems to be a regular problem with you Elisabeth – show me where I said that Abby Johnson lied.
Mother In Texas – ‘I can’t help that…….That’s just one of the sources.’ – so can you provide independent ones?
‘check out Lila Rose, she went INTO PP clinics and caught those counselors in lies.’ – and did you read this http://www.abortionaccess.info/chooselie.htm or not?
‘I checked into that, and it’s not true.’ – where? How?
The links you have provided have been predominantly from pro-life sites or organizations. The few that aren’t are just that, a few. The independent sources outweigh the few renegades. Then you just go on about your personal experiences and opinions. They might add volume but they don’t add value.
‘I’ve seen the facts. I know what’s out there’ – and I haven’t exactly spent the last fifty odd years under a rock Mother In Texas!
‘Oh and this doesn’t have Pro-Life in the address link’ – Nice try! Heritage House mean anything to you?
Oh, look what I found on your link – ‘Abortion was known and practiced in the world of Greece and Rome into which Christianity came’. Apart from that they tell an awful lot of lies!
‘There’s other websites out there, and I can find them for you if you feel you must have them.’ – go on then.
Cranium,
You can’t provide independent non-pro-choicer sources either, so don’t even start with me.
Well there you go then. It must all be opinion.
Apart from this:
http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/risk/abortion-miscarriage
or this:
http://www.cancercouncil.com.au/editorial.asp?pageid=245
or this:
http://www.fwhc.org/abortion/abcancer.htm
want some more?
I’ve already provided CDC data demonstrating that delivery is 9-11 times more fatal than abortion.
As for the lies at opposing clinics, the impression I get is that abortion clinics do what they can to support and protect their clients whereas CPC’s lie in an attempt to put clients off abortion.
Cranium,
What is your point? You can’t provide anything that says abortions are completely okay. I’ve mentioned that before and all you do is post something about pro-lifers being hypocrits. But not all pro-lifers are like that.
I’ve educated myself on how abortions are done. I know what my faith teaches regarding abortion and why.
I’ve read what medical doctors say about abortions.
I’ve been to the PP website.
I’ve been through pregnancy, labor and delivery–so I know what that’s like. (I also lost a lot of blood giving birth, but I don’t regret having gone through it and having my son, I love my son and wouldn’t trade him in for anything).
I’ve talked to people who regret abortions. I’ve listened to a man sob on the phone about a girl he was dating at the time and how she aborted his child even though he begged her not to–even though he would’ve done absolutely everything he could’ve to help her. And NOT once did he ever place any blame on the woman. he only blamed himself.
There’s absolutely nothing you’ve provided, nothing you can say, nothing out there that can factually say there are no bad side effects to abortions. There is NOTHING out there that can prove people don’t ever suffer from them. And you know it, because if there was, you would’ve already provided us with that information and you haven’t.
People DO suffer from abortions. The pre-born babies life DOES end in abortion. It is NOT natural for a woman to have a vacuum shoved up her cervix and you know that. Pregnancy IS a natural result of intercourse and it does mean a life is there because a developing, growing human being and every single pregnancy book talks about the developments of the baby. (I have a pregnancy book that even provides photos at different stages of the pregnancy). So you can’t tell me it’s not a life, because I’ve seen a pre-born baby, both in pictures and my own.
You accuse me of not being able to find non-pro-life information, yet you have NOT provided us with ANY non-pro-choice information to support YOUR stance.
So really, we’re at an impasse, aren’t we?
Cranium,
Okay I saw your thing regarding breast cancer and abortion. I’ll give you that that was a non-pro choice link.
HOWEVER…
You still cannot provide me with anything to support your claim that abortion is completely fine. NO problems WHATSOEVER.
By the way Cranium. This link WAS a pro-choice link (how do I know, they called pro-lifers “anti-choice”): http://www.fwhc.org/abortion/abcancer.htm
This one (after looking it over even further) wasn’t a NON-pro choice link either: http://www.fwhc.org/abortion/flyer.htm
Based on the way your post read, you tauted these as being “stand alone” and they weren’t.
‘You can’t provide anything that says abortions are completely okay’ – and you can’t provide anything that says the opposite. The reality is that any data in relation to the outcomes and impacts of unwanted pregnancies not being aborted are not collected. So it amounts to personal opinion.
‘I know what my faith teaches regarding abortion and why ‘ -and that’s the point. Believe it, follow it, but leave others alone.
I’ve talked to people who’ve regretted not having abortions. I’ve talked to people who are in tears because they cannot cope with unwanted or seriously deficient children, for a range of reasons.
Then you espouse more subjective, faith-based opinion.
Having a hip replacement is no less ‘natural’ than having an abortion.
I’ve provided an alternative dictionary meaning of ‘baby’ – more than once.
I have provided non pro-choice information – the cancer council links and the CDC data.
Having an abortion is a choice. Believing it is right or it is wrong is also a choice. You have not provided any independent sources which demonstrate that abortion isn’t safer than an unwanted pregnancy, on a number of fronts.
‘You still cannot provide me with anything to support your claim that abortion is completely fine. NO problems WHATSOEVER.’ – no, but I’ve proven it’s safer than pregnancy. So if you want to talk about ‘problems’.
I didn’t provide the http://www.fwhc.org/abortion/flyer.htm
link did I?
Oops…. that was actually Reality accusing Abby Johnson of lying. I still want the evidence for that, though.
Occasionally we’re going to get you, Reality, and Biggz confused… you all resort to the same tactics.
Still waiting for a link that states abortion does NOT end the life of a developing, fully human preborn child.
Even abortionists know this!
Abortion is 9-11 times safer than natural childbirth??? For whom? Not the growing child.
“The very reason anyone cares about this video is because it is of puppies and not K9 fetuses…”
Biggz, you have so missed the point. The comparison is not living puppies vs. dead infants. The comparison is living puppies versus living fetuses. Aborted fetuses are fetuses that HAVE BEEN KILLED. Just as this girl was KILLING those puppies. If the bucket was full of LIVING K9 PREEMIES, we would be no less appalled. A human fetus is alive before it is killed.
I have little intellectual respect for people who say “a fetus is not a baby.” That’s nothing but a childish word game. An infant born at 25 weeks is called a baby, but a 40 week, full-term fetus, not yet born, is a fetus. By your logic, the less developed, younger infant is a baby, and the fully-developed infant is something supposedly utterly different – a “fetus” ….woooooo….spooky. Do you not know that Fetus is Latin for “young one, offspring”? If that’s not the definition of a baby, I don’t know what is.
All these comments about living puppies versus dead human fetuses … Don’t prochoicers understand that fetuses are ALIVE before they are dismembered? No one here is comparing live puppies to dead fetuses. We’re comparing *live* puppies to *live* fetuses. It’s not that hard to grasp unless you’re stubbornly wearing blinders.
An actual reporter went through the trouble of looking up the facts on Abby Johnson. You have to register, but read the whole thing.
http://www.texasmonthly.com/preview/2010-02-01/letterfrombryan
Oh wait, I actually don’t expect you to read it and realize what a two-bit self-promoter this woman is. The pro-life movement thrives on lies. If you expose one of their lies, they’ll dig their heels in and become even more insistent that the lies are true.
I have no doubt that many people who go around peddling “conversion” stories are trolling for money and political power. I can’t wait til Abby Johnson gets a lucrative book contract to tell her fake story.
Wasn’t it pro-lifers who fell for the totally fake “Baby April Rose” story about a blogger’s fictional dying fetus that she refused to abort? Not to mention falling for the ludicrous stories about Terri Schiavo talking and laughing and saying “I want to live” before they pulled the feeding tube. The autopsy–conducted by actual medical experts–showed she was blind and had no brain function beyond the base level, like breathing and pumping blood. Pro-lifers seem to get a kick out of falling for big fat lies.
And, of course, another anti-choice tactic is to refuse to accept any evidence against their claims. I’m sure someone will accuse the Texas Monthly reporter of being “biased” (everyone who doesn’t promote pro-life propaganda is, apparently). The medical professional who conducted Terri Schiavo’s autopsy? Part of the conspiracy.
This is a common trait of anyone who is brainwashed or holds fanatical beliefs, including members of religious cults. No evidence against their beliefs is ever good enough, and they buy into paranoid conspiracy theories–such as the idea that a doctor whose job, day in and day out for years, is to conduct autopsies, is lying about Terri Schiavo. At the same time, they fall for absurd stories that confirm their worldview, like the April Rose hoax.
Cranium,
The majority of your sources have had that pro-choice slant. However, that’s irrelevent in the light of facts.
The fact is, abortion IS risky. Some women have died from it. Others have experienced some of the other problems with abortion. And some have regretted their decision. Most people who come out of a major surgery don’t regret it. I don’t regret having had that popcorn kernel removed from my ear when I was 5 years old (I put it in their myself, I remember the event pretty clearly–even though it happened almost 26 years ago). Most people who get their tonsils removed don’t regret it. My brother doesn’t regret having gotten that thing removed (I can’t remember the name of it) neither does one of his friends who had the same surgery done years later. However, there ARE women who regret their abortions.
If abortion was so helpful and so wonderful and so supremely best for a woman, then the woman wouldn’t regret it. However, it’s obvious it isn’t as 100 percent helpful as the pro-choice side tauts.
This doctor talks about those risks with abortion that i mentioned: http://www.afterabortion.org/hope/arti61.htm
Doctors know the truth; but it also is a money maker for them, so it’s in the abortionists best interest to downplay the risks and up play the risks involved with giving birth.
However, if I hadn’t given birth, if I hadn’t faced down those risks, I wouldn’t have my son whom I love very much. And that, is enough to convince me any risk involved with labor and delivery outweighs the risks and trauma involved with abortion.
I’ve heard and read too many stories of the suffering women have gone through (and men) involving abortion.
I have emailed people for information regarding questions you raised. I know at least one of them will take awhile to answer because that person is a doctor and busy with patients AND her home life.
However, you can contact Dr. Kathlenborn about his research regarding breast cancer and abortion, if you so desire. You can find his email address here: http://www.lifeissues.net/writer.php?ID=kah
Regardless of any or whatever answers I get from these people, our conversation is over. (what I mean by “our conversation” is this debate/flurry of site posting/ discussion/whatever you want to call it–it’s over whatever name you give it). It hasn’t gone anywhere. You won’t convince me to your side and obviously there’s no convincing you to the pro-life side.
But I still will offer up a prayer that one day you’ll get it. For now, I think it’s best we closed this particular discussion between us.
Reality
September 10th, 2010 at 10:02 am
And, of course, another anti-choice tactic is to refuse to accept any evidence against their claims. I’m sure someone will accuse the Texas Monthly reporter of being “biased” (everyone who doesn’t promote pro-life propaganda is, apparently). The medical professional who conducted Terri Schiavo’s autopsy? Part of the conspiracy.
This is a common trait of anyone who is brainwashed or holds fanatical beliefs, including members of religious cults. No evidence against their beliefs is ever good enough, and they buy into paranoid conspiracy theories–such as the idea that a doctor whose job, day in and day out for years, is to conduct autopsies, is lying about Terri Schiavo. At the same time, they fall for absurd stories that confirm their worldview, like the April Rose hoax.
It’s been my experience that the pro-choice/pro-abort side of the argument does the EXACT thing you accuse us of doing. Any sources, references we supply is “biased” toward the pro-life side.
Some choice quotes from the Texas Monthly article on Abby Johnson:
“In early November, the online magazine Salon reported that on September 27, the day after Johnson says she witnessed the ultrasound-guided abortion and had her epiphany, she appeared as a guest on the Bryan public radio program Fair and Feminist to discuss her work at the clinic. In the hour-long interview, Johnson gives an enthusiastic defense of the clinic and ridicules the 40 Days for Life protest. She doesn’t sound like someone who’d had a life-changing experience the previous day or who had soured on her employer’s mission.”
Yeah, sounds like someone deeply traumatized by witnessing an abortion the day before.
“At one time, Johnson, who was named the regional Planned Parenthood affiliate’s employee of the year in 2008, seemed to have a promising future with the organization. By mid-2009, however, her relationship with her employer had begun to deteriorate. Salon reported that on October 2, Johnson was summoned to Houston to meet with her supervisors to discuss problems with her job performance. She was placed on what Planned Parenthood calls a “performance improvement plan.” It was just three days later, on Monday, that Johnson made her tearful appearance at the Coalition for Life. The following day she faxed Planned Parenthood a resignation letter, which mentioned nothing about a crisis of conscience.”
She was about to be fired, so…
“On September 24, two weeks before she resigned, she wrote, “So tired. Want a day off. Too busy. Blah.” Similar sentiments followed, along with expressions of dread over her coming disciplinary meeting in Houston. This is what she wrote on the night she quit: Alright. Here’s the deal. I have been doing the work of two full time people for two years. Then, after I have been working my whole big butt off for them and prioritizing that company over my family, my friends and pretty much everything else in my life, they have the nerve to tell me that my job performance is “slipping.” WHAT???!!! That is crazy. Anyone that knows me knows how committed I was to that job. They obviously do not value me at all. So, I’m out and I feel really great about it!”
In other words, she posted a Facebook status that she was indeed in trouble for “slipping job performance,” which she’s now lying about to the gullible Stanek reader who e-mailed her. No mention of a conversion, though.
Apparently she lies about a lot of things. She told the reporter at Texas Monthly she never felt threatened by anti-choicers, a direct contradiction of earlier words and actions.
Other questions about Johnson’s credibility arose during our interview. She told me, for example, that there had never been any threats of violence against the Bryan clinic; however, Johnson herself received a series of threatening letters in 2007. “God will punish you for killing the innocent or we will,” read one. “You are not taking us seriously. You were at the clinic alone. Not very smart,” read another. In fact, the threats were taken so seriously that security cameras were installed at Johnson’s house, as she later acknowledged.
About the fictional abortion:
At my request, the staff at the Bryan clinic examined patient records from September 26, the day Johnson claims to have had her conversion experience, and spoke with the physician who performed abortions on that date. According to Planned Parenthood, there is no record of an ultrasound-guided abortion performed on September 26. The physician on duty told the organization that he did not use an ultrasound that day, nor did Johnson assist on any abortion procedure. “Planned Parenthood can assure you that no abortion patients underwent an ultrasound-guided abortion on September 26,” said a spokesperson. It’s difficult to imagine that Johnson simply got the date wrong; September 12 was the only other day that month that the clinic performed surgical abortions.
Could clinic staff and the physician be mistaken? The Texas Department of State Health Services requires abortion providers to fill out a form documenting basic information about each procedure performed at a clinic. This document is known as the Induced Abortion Report Form. The Bryan clinic reported performing fifteen surgical abortions on September 26. Johnson has consistently said that the patient in question was thirteen weeks pregnant, which is plausible, since thirteen weeks is right at the cusp of when physicians will consider using an ultrasound to assist with the procedure. Yet none of the patients listed on the report for that day were thirteen weeks pregnant; in fact, none were beyond ten weeks.
When I asked if she could provide any other details of what she saw that day to help firm up her story, Johnson volunteered that the patient in question was a black woman, a description that she has never previously included in her account. Only one patient from September 26 was black, according to the Induced Abortion Report Form, and she was in the sixth week of her pregnancy. There would be no medical reason for a doctor to use an ultrasound to guide an abortion performed on a woman at such an early stage. Even if one was used, it’s hard to imagine how Johnson, who said she has seen hundreds of ultrasound pictures in her career, could mistake a one-quarter-inch-long embryo for a three-inch, thirteen-week fetus.
Congratulations on being duped into her BS.
So we have established that you hate. That your bitterness and rage and contempt spills out over onto people you don’t even know and may never meet. What are you going to do with your rage, Reality? It will eat you up. I can promise you that.
Ah. Feels good to be on the side of LIFE today and everyday.
Ah. Feels good to be on the side of LIFE today and everyday.
Ignorance is bliss. Being so gullible and falling for lies must be nice.
The lie that a child is killed in an abortion???
A change in your moniker please!! LOL
Reality, if you are going to keep basing your claims of Abby lying on these supposed Facebook posts…. SHOW THE POSTS OR SCREENSHOTS OF THE POSTS.
Hi Reality.
“Being so gullible and falling for lies must be nice.”
Perhaps you’re referring to something more specific here, but if your comment was more general, where is the lie in the statement that “abortion kills an innocent human being”?
You go find the screenshots if you’re so interested. The Texas Monthly reporter is the one who saw them, and no one–not even Abby Johnson herself–has denied she posted them.
Great, she already does have a book.
http://www.christianbook.com/unplanned-shocking-planned-parenthood-director-crossed/abby-johnson/9781414339399/pd/339399
Becoming a pro-life fanatic seems quite profitable. Surely she’s making more money for less work now than as a PP director, with her book contracts and speeches. What a fake.
Actually, the person who has PROVEN themselves to be a fake is you. You keep repeating allegations with no proof whatsoever.
And you just admitted you have no evidence.
And you just admitted you have no evidence.
No, I didn’t. You think the reporter pulled Abby’s Facebook quote from thin air? No. She doesn’t deny posting it; e-mail and ask her yourself.
She offered up the detail about the patient being black AFTER Planned Parenthood had released their records from that day. Even given the small chance PP was willing to commit a felony and “doctored” their records, she made this claim after they were made public, giving PP no chance to go back and edit out this new detail. The records showed the only black patient was 6 weeks pregnant. She’s a liar, but the more obvious the lie, the more pro-lifers are determined to believe it.
Brainwashed people of any stripe will always scream “no evidence!” at something that contradicts their beliefs.
I have to say that being sucked into this discussion about the credibility of Abby Johnson is in my opinion not a good use of resources for the pro-life movement. Look at all the time and energy that not only pro-lifers are spending on it, but all the time that our pro-choicer is as well. What I fear it does is take away from teh real issue. Because really, let’s assume the worst. Let’s assume Abby Johnson is an evil no good liar who created this whole incident to make money. What follows about the reality of abortion? Does abortion therefore become a good? Or what happens if we convince Reality that Abby is the real deal? Does it then follow that she will repudiate her pro-choice position and become pro-life? Of course not. It seems to me that both sides have very little to gain from this debate. But taht is just my opinion.
I agree with you, Bobby. The pro-aborts actually HAVE no argument, therefore, they must resort to attacking the character of those in the pro-life movement.
Attempting to discredit the witness to a crime is pretty common procedure, isn’t it?
Bobby, totally get what you’re saying, but I’m tired and cranky… so, hey, one more swing at the pinata…
Reality… I’m supposed to believe you based on what… cause you said so? You can keep screaming deluded and liar… I’m not saying anything whatsoever verifying Abby’s story. What I have said is that you haven’t disproven Abby’s story with anything even close to resembling actual evidence. (What, just because you believe this reporter, the rest of us have to? Oh, yeah, because the press NEVER fabricates stories… if you believe that, I’ve got some beachfront property in AZ for you… and a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge.)
As to emailing Abby to ask her, the last person who did that got trounced by you for believing what Abby said in her email response, so there is really no point in that.
My prolife stance is secure!!!
No matter who said what about something she did or did not do to them or him or her…………
:)
Uh, I’ve personally known a few lying reporters.
Just saying.
Who knows if Abby is telling the truth or not? Who cares? Like Bobby said, how does it change what abortion is. Abortion kills a developing child. It did while Abby worked to sell them and it still does now that she claims to be pro-life. Abortion has not changed. Abortion is still a gruesome murder of a defenseless human being. Abortion is not hinged on what Abby Johnson does or does no believe. The truth does not revolve around Abby.
I can say though with 100% certainty that Carla is pro-life and her conversion is real :-) She herself can tell you her experience with abortion and how it affected her. Does that count? Do you have supposed facebook posts to prove Carla isn’t pro-life? Just wondering…
Cranium,
Your vapid posts here really validate your chosen handle: cranium, which is the empty case that holds the brain. Too bad your sophomoric rejoinders are so very ill-informed. You need some factual data to fill that very empty case.
“As for the lies at opposing clinics, the impression I get is that abortion clinics do what they can to support and protect their clients whereas CPC’s lie in an attempt to put clients off abortion.”
Actually, the lies are the abortionists who break with every credible embryology text when they describe the embryo and fetus as a pre-human blob of tissue.
http://gerardnadal.com/2010/01/07/more-from-the-scientific-community-on-the-identity-and-status-of-the-human-embryo/
CPC’s are armed with sonogram machines which show women the truth of what resides within them. To see that truth, go here:
http://www.ehd.org/
As for the harm done to women and the lies told by the National Cancer Institute’s Dr. Louise Brinton who talks out of both sides of her mouth:
http://gerardnadal.com/2010/02/22/politically-correcting-the-abortion-breast-cancer-link/
Follow the links in the articles to the non-prolife primary sources in science.
Truth is truth cranium. Start filling that case with it.
Sydney,
Let me know if you find any dirt on me. That would be sweet.
Carla, I will be diligently monitoring your posts. If I see some discrepancies I will let you know. Ditto if you find dirt on me. These convictions are so confusing to handle, ya know?
I know!! You can count on me.
Mother In Texas, ALL of your sources have an anti-choice slant. The fact is, abortion is LESS risky than delivery. More women die from delivery.
Gerard, welcome to the debate – although you are rather late to it and may struggle to find all the links and sources I have provided.
Yes, yes, the usual little speil in an attempt to devalue your opponents position to kick things off -well done.
I have demonstrated that CPC’s consistently lie in regards to the dangers, the impacts and the after effects of abortion. That’s multiple lies Gerard.
Do you really think I’m going to give greater credance to something you, an anti-choice advocate, wrote; over the reams of data and testing information from numerous independant cancer organizations around the world?
The truth is already out there Gerard. Abortion is safer than full-term delivery. The link between abortion and increased cancer rates has been discredited. Other physiological impacts claimed by anti-choicers have also been discredited.
Data/statistics/information on the impacts the psychological, physiological and socio/economic conditions of women who fail to receive a desired abortion are not even gathered. So any arguments about outcomes are rather moot.
Yes, yes, the usual little speil in an attempt to devalue your opponents position to kick things off -well done.
Hi Cranium. So, we’ve gone from “diatribe” to “speil,” have we? ;) lol
Yeah, I got bored with repeating it and figured you guys probably have as well. And I even came up with a different word without resorting to a thesaurus! :-)
Cranium…. it’s “spiel”…. just so you know, not speil.
Oh, and just claiming you’ve proven CPCs lie is not the same as actually haven proven that CPCs lie.
Thanks Elisabeth, I did wonder but the posting spellcheck didn’t highlight it.
But I did prove it. I supplied links remember?
Mother In Texas, ALL of your sources have an anti-choice slant. The fact is, abortion is LESS risky than delivery. More women die from delivery.
Cranium–
Putting aside the fact that women dying from abortion has happened and that I’ve never seen any SCIENTIFIC stats to back up any such claim that abortion is safer than delivery and that labor and delivery is more natural than an abortion (I mean how natural is it to have a medical instrument shoved up a woman’s cervix and dilating it before 40 weeks of pregnancy), I did say the conversation betweeen us (or whatever that was) was OVER.
I’m turning you over to a scientist, Dr. Nadal (check out his blog for all his credentials,they’re extensive), and to Dr. Kathlenborn (an MD who has done at least 6 years of research on the link between breast cancer and abortion). You can take up your cause with them. They know more than I do,. However, I expect you’ll dismiss them as much as you have me and every other pro-lifer.
God bless.
You did not provide any links that “prove” that CPCs lie. You provided links that made claims that they lied without providing any evidence of such lies. There is a difference.
If you use Firefox it will highlight your spelling errors in the posting system of any website. Highly recommend Firefox for all uses online. It’s MUCH safer for browsing.
Syndey, I have been through a pregnancy and I can’t believe you could see all of that at 5 weeks post conception. I am 11 weeks pregnant and had an ultrasound yesterday morning and all I could see was a blob with something that vaguely resembled a head and two things that could have been arms or legs. Oh, and a small flickering dot that is the heartbeat. This is actually my fourth pregnancy and I’ve had ultrasounds as early as four and five weeks past conception- all I could see was a flickering dot and a sac. Maybe your doctor has better ultrasound equipment than mine, but I haven’t seen anything like you describe until I was at least 18-20 weeks along.
I just don’t understand why people can’t believe that you can have gone through pregnancy and still be pro-choice. I can understand why you would mourn a miscarriage and I am still pro-choice. In fact, the reason I had an ultrasound yesterday was that I was bleeding and cramping and scared that I was miscarrying, so they went in to make sure everything was ok. (It is, in case anyone is wondering). I would be devastated if I miscarried and I am still pro-choice. I love my kids, I love this little fetus I’m carrying, even if it is making my life miserable (I hate morning sickness, the constant sleepiness and the caffeine withdrawal headaches) and I am still pro-choice. I think having children is one of the greatest responsibilities on the planet, I think its amazing what my body can do (I grow people! In my body! That is so cool!) and I can’t imagine forcing that on someone who does not want the responsibility. Pregnancy is awesome, yes, but it’s hard… I had to take the day off of work yesterday to attend doctor’s appointments and ultrasounds, I sit at my desk feeling like death warmed over, I have headaches from the rising hormone levels, my asthma is acting up because of the shortness of breath with my uterus expanding, and I am okay with all of that- I chose to get pregnant, I want another child, I am excited about sharing this pregnancy with my two older children. I chose to use my body to grow this little one, who is absolutely a human life. However, I do not believe that a woman can be forced to use her body to gestate a human life, against her will. Period. I’ve seen the pictures and I’m still pro-choice. I’ve had babies and I’m still pro-choice. I’m pregnant and I’m still pro-choice.
Julie – Glad your baby’s okay.
An unborn child inside a woman who doesn’t want to be pregnant is just as real, human, and worthy of love as your baby. Whether a person lives or dies should not be determined by whether one person “wants” them or not.
Julie, I am happy that everything is OK with your baby as well.
Seeing that small flickering dot was enough for me to realize it would be extremely arrogant of me to think that my old, larger beating heart was more important than that new, tiny beating heart.
Have you or any one close to you ever aborted?
Yes, Julie I was 5 weeks (7 weeks LNMP) and my son had all those things. I had a vaginal ultrasound. I could clearly see his beating heart…it took up his whole chest. He didn’t have fingers and toes yet but he had arms and legs and a huge head. You could see the orbits of his eyes and the rest of his face (nose and mouth) was almost fully formed also. My husband was in the room and saw the same thing also. They printed out the picture and I showed it to my mother-in-law who broke into tears and said “Wow! Look how developed the baby already is!”
Maybe your doctor just has a crappy ultrasound machine. Or maybe you’re so committed to believing that a fetus isn’t a life with any worth that you can’t see the truth in front of your eyes.
Bethany on this site had a miscarriage at 6 weeks. She took a picture of her baby that she named Blessing and posted it. At 6 weeks Blessing already had a face, fingers and toes and looked undeniably human. My ultrasound was taken when my son was only one week earlier in development and he looked very much like Blessing. Your child that you carry now is over a month ahead in development compared to Blessing.
What? I flat out said I believe that the fetus I am carrying is a human life. And one with worth, even. I was super excited to see it moving around and having a heartbeat and all that good stuff. I have had ultrasounds where I very definitely recognized all the things that you mentioned… again, when I was like 18-20 weeks along. I mean, if there were a way to do it I would go ahead and scan the picture I got yesterday so you could see that it is in fact not me refusing to see anything. I am quite familiar with what ultrasounds look like (I had 6 with my daughter, 8 with my son, way too many to count with the child that we lost at 27 weeks, and two so far with this one) and what early miscarriages look like (I’ve had two!). Both of my early miscarriages just involved really heavy bleeding and some pretty big clots. Neither one looked human, but I won’t deny anybody’s own personal experience. I’m sure my experience is not universal either.
Praxedes, that’s a super personal question! Normally I wouldn’t even think of answering it, but we’re on the internet and you don’t know any of these people so… Let’s see… people close to me? Not really that I know of. I have an aunt (who I’m not really all that close to) that had an abortion because she was really young and scared to tell my grandparents, but she regrets it very much. I have a friend that had one probably 10 years before I ever met her, who doesn’t regret hers at all and that’s about it as far as I know of. Me? Sort of…. which I’m sure doesn’t make sense, so I’ll explain. In between my son and daughter I was pregnant for a little boy. When I was 18 weeks pregnant, I found out his abdominal wall hadn’t closed properly and he would need surgery when he was born, so they sent me to a high risk specialist.They did a much more in depth ultrasound and found that he had no kidneys and therefore no amniotic fluid, a hole in his heart, scoliosis, fluid on his brain and one of his legs had developed backward. In addition to not having a properly closed abdominal wall, so the internal organs he did have were outside of his body. He was not able to survive outside of my womb. They offered me a termination, I turned it down because I was 22 weeks and didn’t feel comfortable with that at all. My doctor monitored me weekly to make sure he hadn’t died (yeah, it was a fun time) because I couldn’t feel many movements due to the lack of amniotic fluid. I was losing weight, my blood pressure shot up, I was crying all the time, I couldn’t function. Every time we went in for another ultrasound, he was getting further and further behind in development and I started contracting on and off at 25 weeks. At 27 weeks my husband and I decided we couldn’t do it anymore and my doctor offered to induce labor. So that’s what we did. She induced me, he was born after a 2 and 1/2 day labor intervention and I held him in my arms until he died. He was born with bruises all over his face from where he was being smashed against my uterus. In fact, one eye was so swollen that he couldn’t open it. I have had people tell me I had an abortion and call me a murderer and I’ve had people on this site tell me I didn’t have one so I don’t know if you consider that an abortion or not. If you don’t, then I’ve never had an abortion, no. I’ve had two early miscarriages, two full term pregnancies and my son who I carried to 27 weeks. Oh, and I’m pregnant now.
Well I’ve only been pregnant once. My son is about to turn four this fall. I had four ultrasounds with my son because initially they thought I had a septated uterus and were afraid I would miscarry. My first was at five weeks because they had done a scan at one week and not seen the baby. They didn’t know I was pregnant at that point. They only knew I had tremendous pain in my side and thinking it might be ovary related did a scan. They found nothing, no cysts or anything that should be causing me pain. I was perfectly normal. They did blood work which tested positive for HcG and then were afraid my pregnancy was ectopic. They kept monitoring my hormones which kept steadily rising. Then at 5 weeks (7 LNMP) they did an ultrasound to make sure the baby was in my womb and not my tubes. And there was my son, plain as day, living, not yet moving but with a steady beating heart and easily discernible human parts. The next 3 ultrasounds I had just showed me how amazing his growth was. My next scan was at 4 months. I saw every vertebrae in his miniature spine. I saw him twist and turn and suck his thumb. It was amazing. But the most amazing one was my first ultrasound. Seeing him, my son, a little embryo…it made me cry so hard. I was totally overcome with emotion. The ultrasound tech thought she had hurt me because I kept crying.
The thing I don’t understand Julie is that you say you recognize a fetus is a human life with worth yet you state you think some women should be able to take that life. I can’t wrap my mind around that seemingly contradictory stance.
I don’t believe asking a woman whether she has had an abortion or not a personal question, especially on a site that discusses issues surrounding abortion. Also, if nothing is wrong with abortion, why is it so darn personal?
Proaborts compare abortion to having a tooth pulled or a wart removed and if someone asked me if I had my wisdom teeth removed I wouldn’t react by saying, “Wow, what a super personal question!”
Yes, what you chose to put your unborn child through is indeed a form of abortion. I won’t waste your time explaining the reasons why because I’m sure you have heard them by now.
Thanks for answering my question. Your answer helps me understand where you are coming from and the reasons behind why you rationalize legal abortion.
Sydney, I know it sounds weird. I was raised in a pro-life home, I grew up believing the very same things you do. I just don’t believe that a woman can be forced to use her body to gestate a human life, when it carries very real risks to her life and health.
Praxedes, I think anything related to your sexual health is a personal question. My husband is having a vasectomy in a couple months, but people don’t often ask him about it and if they did, I would think it was pretty personal and intrusive. Same if you had asked me about the frequency with which I have sex, whether a pregnancy was planned or not, what kind of birth control I use. For that matter, I think questions like “how much do you weigh?” or “what does your blood pressure normally run?” etc… are pretty intrusive as well unless they are coming from my doctor.
I have no problem calling it an abortion. I always had until I posted here once and people informed me that it was not in fact. The fact of the matter is, my body was not a safe place for him and I don’t care what anyone’s personal feelings on my decision are. It wasn’t their child unable to move freely and being beaten on by their uterus. It’s been over five years and I’d make the same decision tomorrow. If that’s rationalization then I guess I’m ok with that.
“I think anything related to your sexual health is a personal question.”
What? Abortion is related to your sexual health?
“I just don’t believe that a woman can be forced to use her body to gestate a human life, when it carries very real risks to her life and health.”
Are you saying you are opposed to abortion in cases where there is no real risk to the mom’s life and health?
I remember you now, Julie. I remember your story. An abortion is if the INTENT is to kill the child. By terminating the pregnancy did you wish to kill your child or was the intent to help your health and remove your child from a dangerous situation himself? His death was an unintended consequence was it not? I don’t consider that an abortion unless your intent was to kill him.
Praxedes already hit on the question I was thinking…well what about if the mom’s life is not in danger? Do you support abortion if there is no risk of danger to the mom but say she has financial reasons not to have a child. Is it okay for her to kill that fetal life then?
Cranium,
I’d suggest hat you actually read my link to the breast cancer issue and follow those links. NONE of the breast cancer data have been discredited, except those which tried to discredit them!! You simply are either ignorant of the issue, or spinning like mad. I’m not writing it all over again here. Follow the links.
Julie,
You didn’t have an abortion. Labor was induced and your baby boy who would not survive outside the womb was delivered. Your baby boy was born and you held him and loved him and you are his mom. Did you name him?
I find it interesting that you say “beaten on by their uterus” and “smashed against my uterus.” Why the violent imagery and who gave that to you? Your doctor? Did people actually say those things to you? Or is that the kind of memory of being pregnant with your son that you want to carry with you?
I am 11 weeks pregnant and had an ultrasound yesterday morning and all I could see was a blob with something that vaguely resembled a head and two things that could have been arms or legs. Oh, and a small flickering dot that is the heartbeat. This is actually my fourth pregnancy and I’ve had ultrasounds as early as four and five weeks past conception- all I could see was a flickering dot and a sac. Maybe your doctor has better ultrasound equipment than mine, but I haven’t seen anything like you describe until I was at least 18-20 weeks along.
I have video of my daughter at 11 weeks and she is not a “blob” with a flickering heartbeat. She was kicking and moving around, sucking her thumb, and I could see her spine, arms, legs, hands, arms and head perfectly clearly. I also saw my daughter at about 5 weeks. At that point, she wasn’t a “blob” but a tiny person with very tiny arm buds and feet, and a flickering heartbeat. I could still see the sac, as well. The 5 week ultrasound was to determine due date, and the 11 weeker was due to some unexplained bleeding.
Your scan at 11 weeks doesn’t sound correct, Julie. Perhaps it was too grainy to see?
http://www.ehd.org/dev_article_unit11.php
http://www.ehd.org/dev_article_unit12.php
Just one more thing about pro-lifers constantly falling for lies: “More” magazine did a flattering piece on Leslee Unruh, the nutcase behind the South Dakota abortion ban. She claims she had an abortion and now she has moral authority because she knows how awful it is to kill the baybeez. Well, when the reporter looked into her abortion story, she quickly discovered Unruh was lying about when it happened and who the father was, which Unruh admitted to lying about. The other details were very fishy–like Unruh’s claim that she went behind her husband’s back to have an abortion at the same time he was a virulently anti-abortion pastor. I’m betting her “post-abortive” sob story is completely fake.
Meanwhile, pro-lifers won’t trust anyone outside their own fanatical following. Medical professionals are just part of the conspiracy. If the American Cancer Society says abortion doesn’t cause breast cancer and the American Psychological Association says it’s extremely unlikely to cause new mental problems (the best predictor of the woman’s mental state after the abortion is her state before)–they’re not to be trusted. No amount of scientific research from the experts is ever good enough. Then again, all brainwashed people have a hatred of facts and research and people who know more than them.
“Then again, all brainwashed people have a hatred of facts and research and people who know more than them.”
Then why do you continue to come back here? If your last sentence is true, then you continue to come here only to stir up hate and not out of true concern for us and our “brainwashed” state of minds.
You are too funny.
No amount of scientific research from the experts is ever good enough.
No amount of scientific research amounts to a hill of beans when you have your own horrifying story of abortion and how you have been hurt by it.
Why would I care about research that says abortion doesn’t hurt anyone??
And I’m still waiting for you to show the data that abortion doesn’t end the life of a human being with unique DNA and a beating heart, “Reality”…
Hi Elisabeth. I do use Firefox, that’s why I was surprised that spellcheck didn’t highlight the error.
The info I rpovided regarding CPC lies is as valid as the info that’s been provided regarding PP clinics. I think that allowing ‘six of one, half a dozen of the other’ is generous of me quite frankly.
‘I’ve never seen any SCIENTIFIC stats to back up any such claim that abortion is safer than delivery’ – what, clear and specific CDC data not enough for you Mother In Texas? I’ve supplied them umpteen times, do you choose not to see them? Are you able to provide anything “SCIENTIFIC”, anything at all, which disputes the fact that abortion is 9-11 times safer than delivery? And how ‘natural’ is a caesarian?
I have also provided links to independant cancer councils which contain information from studies conducted all around the world which discredit claimed links between abortion and cancer.
Gerard, like I said, I give much more credit to independant cancer councils from around the world which have no wheelbarrow to push than I do to the odd spot of opinion which you use. I’m not repeating the links either – go have a look.
How is a claim the same as videotaped proof?
My partner is a photographer/media graphics manipulator/website designer Elisabeth. How do we know the video wasn’t scripted and done by actors?
Because there have been state investigations and people fired because of these videotapes.
Reposting here:
Ashley, we’re now wise to your little identity crisis you seem to have had on this site. We know you’ve been posing as “Reality” for some time now, on several threads, for at least the past few weeks. No clue why on earth you’d see the need to do that, but it’s quite likely you’ll be banned.
I’m sure Amanda Marcotte would welcome your writing over at RH Reality Check, since you appear to be a fan and credit her with turning you pro-choice. Couldn’t have anything to do with your own abortion, though, surely not. And now I understand why you were so quick to dehumanize unborn children at an early stage – the same stage at which you chose to end the life of yours. Your being “underwhelmed” at an unborn human the “size of a dime” now makes all the sense in the world.
Also explains the crude personal attack I had to edit. Seemed out of character for “reality,” and now I know why. Also explains the harping on and on about women being pregnant by abusive men. I understand you feel you had to abort in order to get away from your abusive boyfriend. But assuming that all women are in your situation is just plain wrong.
So it appears you’ve at last morphed into two people before our very eyes. One is Ashley/Reality, who hates “anti-choicers” who “subjugate women” and “hate sex.” And the other is the Ashley who comes crying to us “anti-choicers” for support when she miscarries or is unable to conceive. We have tried to help you, Ashley, but bottom line, you have to get help. You seriously need it.
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