The emerging European pro-life movement
I ate dinner last night with Youth Defence conference attendees from Belgium, France, Germany, and, of course, Ireland. I learned that Marches for Life have begun springing up all over Europe just in the past 5 years. For instance, from ABS-CBNnews.com, April 13, 2010:
What was supposed to be an ordinary rally turned out to be one of the biggest gatherings in Belgium.
Different religious organizations and civil groups set aside their differences and joined forces in condemning abortion, which was legalized in Belgium exactly 2 decades ago.
The first ever “Brussels March for Life” urged authorities to abolish abortion in the country as a sign of respect for women who play vital roles in the society.
Pictured here are some of the leaders of the Belgium pro-life movement (along with a couple from France)…
Speaking of France, from CatholicNewsAgency.com, January 19, 2010:
An estimated 25,000 pro-life advocates took part in the 6th Paris March for Life on Sunday to mark the 35th anniversary of the legalization of abortion in France….
“Marche pour la Vie”… brought together 15 French pro-life groups for the non-sectarian and non-partisan event. Organizers said a majority of participants were families or under 25 years old.
Participation increased from last year’s attendance of 15,000 people. The 2010 event saw an unprecedented mobilization effort on social networks like Facebook….
Here are many leaders of Youth Defence. Ireland holds its Rally for Life in July, a day picked merely in hopes the skies will be sunny, since there is happily no anniversary of legalized abortion to commemorate…
About the 2010 Rally for Life, from its website:
Up to 4,000 people have attended the All Ireland Rally for Life in Belfast. The colourful parade attracted maximum attention as it made its way though the busy Belfast shopping district before hearing speeches from pro-life leaders in Custom House Square.
The Rally is organised by a coalition of pro-life groups including Precious Life, Youth Defence and the Life Institute. Bernadette Smyth of Precious Life said she was “delighted to see the huge crowd which had gathered for the 4th consecutive year to stand in defence of life. ”
As I wrote in my previous post, it isn’t necessarily easy to express pro-life beliefs in Europe. The photo right, by pro-lifer Bryan Kemper, is of riot police holding back a mob of protesters at Germany’s 2nd annual March for Life on September 18, 2010. Here is an obviously hostile news account:
Today around 1000 radical Christians demonstrated in Berlin/Germany against abortion with an “March for Life”. Youth-groups from the USA as well as radical Pro-Life supporters from other European countries supported the march.
Around 300 Riot-Police where needed to separate the Pro-Life demonstration from the loud protest of different left-winged groups – they matched around 800 people. They where supported from the Queer & Gay movement, as well as from Feminists and Antifascists.
They tried to provoke the Christians with anti-religious slogans as well as condoms and upside down crosses. The police arrested several protesters.
See photos, some harrowing, from that event here.
Spain has also been the scene of huge pro-life rallies the past 2 years.
The worldwide battle against abortion is intensifying, as pro-lifers awaken and emerge and as pro-aborts through the United Nations and European Union try to legalize it in more countries.
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Good to know when I read “radical Christians” the media is describing real, genuine, Gospel of Life Christians.
You don’t usually hear much about pro-lifers in Europe. This is great!
Love it!!
Pope Benedict XVI has made the central work of his papacy the rekindling and restoration of Christian faith in Europe. His emphasis on that goal and Jill’s post suggest that there is a fresh breeze beginning to blow across the Continent.
“Pope Benedict XVI has made the central work of his papacy the rekindling and restoration of Christian faith in Europe.”
Good luck with that. Even Catholic Belgium and Spain have legalized abortion and same sex marriage. The Prostestant countries of Europe are certainly not going to listen to the head of the world’s oldest and richest men’s club, a club that they proudly broke from 500 years ago. The tide of enlightened secularism has certainly prevailed in northern Europe who aren’t going to roll it back any time soon. Denmark is the least religious country in the world and their people are the happiest. Like the other Scandanavian countries (leading the way in happiness per *Forbes), they also have a great infrastructure and educated people. The only way that France will re-criminalize abortions is if the far right, anxious about too many Muslim births, gain total power and that’s just not going to happen in the country that developed RU 486.
“But in many European places where Catholicism remained all-powerful until say, 1960, the church is losing whatever remains of its grip on society at an accelerating pace. The drop in active adherence to, and knowledge of, Christianity is a long-running and gentle trend; but the hollowing out of church structures—parishes, monasteries, schools, universities, charities—is more dramatic. That is the backdrop against which the paedophile scandal, now raging across Europe after its explosion in the United States, has to be understood. The church’s fading institutional power makes it (mercifully) easier for people who were abused by clerics to speak out; and as horrors are laid bare, the church, in many people’s eyes, grows even weaker”
From the “Economist”
http://www.economist.com/node/16740795
*Anti-abortion Ireland is 22 and anti-abortion Poland is 56.
Jesus was considered radical in his day, but his teachings have survived over 2000 years.
Just wondering, are there any secular pro-life groups emerging in Europe?
DD:
Nothing you said, whether true or not, changes the fact that killing human beings at any point in our lives is a crime.
Clearly, the painful weaknesses of human nature cause people to support terrible crimes which they consider to be in their self interest. This is nothing new; it has been going on throughout history.
I find very disturbing the mad passion you and other opponents of unborn human rights have for this terrible crime which is destroying a large part of the future of our species.
Jill,
It is interesting that you regard Youth Defence as representing the pro-life opinion in Ireland when this very group has divided and alienated many away from the pro-life cause. It’s interesting you have aligned yourself with whom many in Ireland regard as the lunatic fringe of the pro-life movement. There are many other hardworking pro-life groups like the pro-life campaign and human life international.
The picture of the Youth Defence “leaders” is pretty accurate as all they seem to do is drink beers and party. The question I would ask you Jill is now that you have aligned yourself to the lunatic fringe should we take you seriously.
You were a headline chaser for Youth Defence and they knew your name would get a crowd to their event. I wish to distance myself from the tactics of Youth Defence. I support more mainstream and credible groups like the Pro-Life Campaign or men like Senator Ronan Mullen.I am not a fan of Youth Defence for many reasons.
Joe,
Note the foam coming from DD’s mouth. Always a dead give-away for rabies. I promised Carla I wasn’t going to feed the trolls, because they make a mess. I just got done mucking out the stalls from DD and Joan on another thread!
DD: I have a friend in Germany and despite the scandals, the Catholic church does have some influence there. Also, many people are not aware that abortion laws are more restrictive in many European countries than in the U.S.
I’ve been to Europe and I really wasn’t impressed. There’s lots of interesting things to see, but the countries I visited — Spain, France, Italy — seemed just tired. I didn’t sense the vitality and energy that you can feel here. Even the poorer countries I’ve visited (Mexico, the Carribbean) seemed more vibrant. And things tend to be quite expensive there. My German friend comes to the U.S. to shop for clothing. Most of the technological innovation in the world is coming from Asia and the U.S., not Europe.
The Danish may be happier and have better health care, but this “bitter clinger” would rather live here.
“I find very disturbing the mad passion you and other opponents of unborn human rights have for this terrible crime which is destroying a large part of the future of our species.”
“Mad passion” — that’s a good term. I just don’t get it either, Joe.
I am living in Berlin now and attended the very end of the pro-life march. It was quite scary. The police did a great job of protecting us from the counter-protestors though, even they seemed a freaked out by their counter-protest.
Many European countries have stricter abortion laws than in America. Even in the Netherlands, which American liberals romanticize as being one step away from heaven on earth, abortion is only legal on demand through the first 13 weeks. Plus, the woman must go through counseling and a 5-day waiting period. Germany is similar, with abortion up to 12 weeks and intense counseling, where the state strongly tries to convince her to continue the pregnany. There can also be legal penalties for people who try to convince a woman to abort. France is really strict with their abortion laws, and the French people I know are strongly opposed to abotion. If this happened in the US, pro-choicers would completely freak out and claim women were one step away from being required to wear burkas.
Do’s
“Criticize ideas, not people.”
“Be civil and considerate”
“No deliberate inflammatory comments.”
Exhibit A from Dr. Nadal
“Note the foam coming from DD’s mouth. Always a dead give-away for rabies”
Guess Dr. Nadal feels that the “rules” don’t apply to him?
”I just got done mucking out the stalls from DD and Joan on another thread”
Isn’t hubris incompatible with Christian humility?
David – What is the distinction between the two groups (Youth Defence and mainstream pro-life groups) ?
Is it a matter of ideology or tactics?
Is there a decent page that summarizes their positions?
Good summary of European abortion laws here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/6235557.stm#france
There’s also a rule about using one moniker, Artemis/DD. Let’s not pretend you’ve been anything other than inflammatory.
The main dogma of Christianity is that Jesus is the only son of God, was crucified, died, buried, and rose again, ascended to heaven, and sits at the right hand of God. Humility, while a noble trait, is not even mentioned in the Apostles Creed.
I always find it rather funny when non-Christians try that humility and tolerance business. Jesus turned over some tables at the temple as I recall. Wasn’t he intolerant of the money changers who defiled the property and charged outrageous exchange rates? Meekness is a wonderful characteristic, and we Christians value it highly, but it is not the main tenet of our faith. You might have us confused with another religion there.
Wow! Thanks DD or Artemis for the info. Just think about it in the US abortion on demand up until the day of delivery is legal in any case, for any reason, as long as you find some abortionist willing to commit the abortion and the so-called “enlightened” Europeans have time limits from 12-16 weeks typically with some restrictions. We are definitely in the pro-abort, pro-death minority compared to other countries. How sad.
I am living in Berlin now and attended the very end of the pro-life march. It was quite scary. The police did a great job of protecting us from the counter-protestors though, even they seemed a freaked out by their counter-protest.
Thanks for your post, Adair. Why were the counter protests so “scary?”
I didn’t even hear about this march in the U.S. press. If nearly two thousand proaborts had marched, it would have defintely been in the news. Thank goodness for the Internet.
“Many European countries have stricter abortion laws than in America.”
.
And fewer abortions. Coincidence?
ninek said: Meekness is a wonderful characteristic, and we Christians value it highly, but it is not the main tenet of our faith
Actually, meekness is really much more about using the exact amount of power to bring about justice. The classic description of meekness has to do with bringing about control of a warhorse. The horse is meek if it accepts the bit and works with the rider. The horse still has tremendous power and strength, but is not out of control.
Chris,
I do question the prudence of Jill associating with Youth Defence. She obviously has not researched their background. I find it interesting that the Youth Defence spokesman in the 2002 pro-life referendum was Justin Barrett. He also shared a platform with the Neo-Nazi NPD Party in Germany a few years earlier.
This is in the public domain.Barrett and Youth Defence cost Ireland a very important pro-life referendum in 2002 that had the support of the Irish Bishops and the Vatican and in particular then Cardinal Ratzinger. The Pro-Life Campaign and majority of pro-life groups supported this referendum. Youth Defence and a lunatic fringe and pro-abortion groups called for a No vote. The No vote one.
Youth Defence try to take credit for keeping abortion out of Ireland but this is false.They have alienated so many away from the cause and often pro-lifers have had to apologise for the antics of Youth Defence.
It’s interesting that Jill spoke at a Youth Defence event and not at a mainstream pro-life group.
I find it very insulting as a pro-lifer that Youth Defence get credit for other people’s hard work.
David,
So are they like a “personhood now!” group which would oppose any sort of “incrementalist” law like banning abortions after 20 weeks or parental notification? I’m just trying to get more of a specific idea about what it is that makes them extreme.
I find it interesting that the Youth Defence spokesman in the 2002 pro-life referendum was Justin Barrett. He also shared a platform with the Neo-Nazi NPD Party in Germany a few years earlier.
Here’s a link to an article to this person’s right-wing connections. Not good.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article1133410.ece
I guess they want abortion to remain legal for people of color :-(
“And fewer abortions. Coincidence?” – maybe. They also have better sex education, access to contraception and less misleading interference.
Chris, interesting, I’d never heard meekness explained like that.
While on one hand, we shouldn’t be loudmouthed hypocrites, we also shouldn’t be weak and complacent while innocent people are being murdered. One can be firm without being wimpy. Jesus was gentle but he was not wimpy.
David,
What absolute nonsense you’ve written re Youth Defence. I was at the conference: it was packed out with enthusiastic young people, their rallies pull 4000+ people, they’ve just launched a major advertising campaign (see http://www.youthdefence.ie/latest-news/yds-new-pro-life-billboard-launched-today/), they have almost 13,000 people on FB, and are by far the most visible and active of the pro-life groups.
Maybe that’s because they spend their time focusing on the cause not on having hissy fits because their own point of view is becoming increasingly irrelevant.
More than a touch of sour grapes here! Get over yourself. Are you authorised by the Pro Life campaign to troll websites and blogs attacking Youth Defence. HLI Ireland, as far as I know, work well with Youth Defence so why drag them into your petty feud.
Not that I imagine the pro-life leaders in Youth Defence care anyway. Their focus is on keeping Ireland abortion-free. When I was in college it was also this simple: if Youth Defence weren’t on campus nothing happened. I saw Bella in a totally packed auditorium in Maynooth, that’s when I first met them. they are great.
You sir (or whatever since you’re trolling) are a bit of a loser.
DD/Artemiserable,
As Saint Thomas Aquinas taught: Humility is Truth.
True Christian humility means being consecrated to truth. From cover to cover, the Bible is loaded with examples of the truth being presented rather forcefully. In addidtion to Jesus kicking over the tables of the money changers who occupied the portico reserved for the Gentiles (so that they too could worship God on His Temple Mount), He also called the Pharisees “whitewashed tombs, full of filth and dead men’s bones.”
Kinda evokes the perfect image of pro-abort trolls.
Don’t try to chastise me for a Christian comportment that you neither understand, nor live. As for the foaming mouth, I’d say that your post on the Pope and the Church couldn’t have been better characterized. You really shouldn’t mock what is holy to people, advocate for the slaughter of innocents, and then expect gentility as a response. If you want courteous and dignified discourse, leave the hand grenades at home and you’ll be responded to in kind.
David, I don’t know about pro-life politics in Ireland, but I do know about them in the U.S. And it’s often just differing approaches on strategy that mire us.
I can understand why. Our mission is urgent, life or death – literally. If we think lives hang in the balance, of course we will have strong opinions on what we think are right and wrong approaches.
I’ve also observed in the U.S. that jealousy and territorialism cause friction as well.
I love the savvy, work, and enthusiasm of the Youth Defence leaders and various European group leaders that Youth Defence encouraged and helped educate by its conference. I’m so grateful they invited me to speak. They had not one unkind word to say about any other pro-life group, btw. Their entire focus was on saving the preborn.
You wrote, “It’s interesting that Jill spoke at a Youth Defence event and not at a mainstream pro-life group.” I’ve not been asked! Invite me! I’d love to speak at a function your group organizes!
Highest regards,
Jill
Jill,
What do see/hear over there from the youth that has motivated their pro-life activism? Are there factors that differ from American youth? How much does faith play a role?
Be Well,
Gerry
David, you seem very bitter. I’ll pray for you.
I came to Ireland five years ago and it was very obvious that Youth Defence ARE the mainstream pro-life group. They are active everywhere and, despite the media bias, get a very positive response from the Irish people.
I’d join with amazing pro-life leaders like Joe Scheidler who have stated often that it is very clear who has kept Ireland abortion-free, and that’s Youth Defence.
For anyone who wants to see what they do – click on http://www.youthdefence.org to see almost 20 years of really cool projects. They’ve created the model that young pro-life groups right across Europe are following, and in fact, young pro-lifers in the US come here regularly to learn from Youth Defence.
I’ve learned LOTS from them. David, you could too. What group are you with by the way? What work do you do?
I hope you are not not part of the breakaway pro-life group who tried to stop Gianna Jessen speaking in Galway simply because they were bitter towards Youth Defence. Now that was really shocking.
love to Jill xxxx
David,
If I do a quick google search on other Irish pro life figures like Ronan Mullen, i’m told that he is a “racist” who foams at the mouth, or that David Quinn is a “hateful bigoted man” – this is in the public domain– does that make it true? Thankfully, Jill had the good sense not to rely on lazy internet research, or anonymous postings by trolls or indeed the opinions of the mainstream media. Instead she had the decency to meet with these people and judge them for herself, because she is not naive enough to think that a pro life organisation’s merits is based on some kind of popularity contest.
If Jill had listened to you and not gone to Ireland, an auditorium packed full of young people, lots of whom heretofore had not been active in the pro life movement, would have been denied the opportunity to hear an amazing motivational speaker give her testimony on dealing with abortion first-hand & warn as to whats in store for any country that sits back and allows abortion to be legalised. How would that have been a good thing? Can you possibly get anything more mainstream than holding a public conference? Is educating and inspiring young people a deplorable tactic of the lunatic fringe?
I wonder how many of the people who attended this conference do you actually know, or have ever spoken to yet you think nothing of coming on here & blackening all of their names by virtue of their association with YD —some would find that deplorable. But if the pro life battle is to be won, and that is something that we all want regardless of who any of us work with in any country, it will be done through people not constantly looking at what X or Y is or isnt doing, but at what they can do themselves, and getting the hell on with it.
David,
I think you are the same person who masquerades under several different names and who spends your time scouring the internet posting nasty and libellous messages. You never identify yourself or what organisation you are with. I think you are a pro-abortion supporter pretending to be pro-life as you think that may ‘convince’ pro-lifers of your credentials. Several of previous posts you posted on different sites have been taken down by the site owners because they were libellous, malicious and downright false.
To the children who have been aborted due to lack of pro-life activity, work, compassion and practical help for their mothers; you can tell them you spent your time in a dark corner writing nasty messages on blogs and forums; well, isn’t that something you can be proud of. You are, to put it lightly, a disgrace.
Hi phillymiss,
The pro-choicers were extremely aggressive. I had seen posters for the counter-protest all over the city for a month or so, but I was surprised how many people actually came. I have only been to a couple pro-life marches in the US, so this may be typical for these kinds of marches and I am just not used to it. But they had a bunch of pornographic items. And, of course, screamed and taunted us. One threw a water-ballon condom at a child.
The pro-life theme was “1000 Kreuze für das Leben” (1000 crosses for life), and the pro-abortion people made their theme “1000 Kreuze in die Spree” (1000 crosses in the Spree, which is the main river in Berlin), because they stole a bunch of our crosses and threw them in the water.
This is a video of the pro-choicers. WARNING though, it is kind of gross and there are swear words in German. At the end you can see them throwing the crosses in the river and cheering. It was sad :(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=izZiZXyP_fo&feature=related
Yes,Europe has the world’s lowest abortion rates. But it’s not because the abortion laws are more restrictive,but because there isn’t the abject poverty which forces so many women to seek and obtain abortions in other countries.
Women don’t generally find themselves in the adverse circumstances which cause abortions elsewhere. Why? Because there is a very secure safety net for people. And women use contraceptives regularly.
Conservatives in America are always railing at European governments for their terribly high taxes and supposed “socialism”. But this “socialism” has a lot of benefits. People here on the whole live much more secure lives than so many in America. Loaing your job is not a catastrophe here,and people don’t lose their homes as is so common here,and have to struggle to support their families.
No,there countries aren’t paradise on earth. Of course they have serious problems. But We could learn a lot from these countries,just as they could learn from us.
I’m no socialist myself,let alone a marxist or communist. But I’m a strong believer in a secure safety net . And unfortunately,many conservative politicians in America are trying to destroy our already inadequate safety net in the name of “personal responsibility”,even though this would be catastrophic,and also cause the abortion rate to skyrocket.
These conservatives are making the utterly false claim that the Obama administration is trying to”redistribute wealth” in order to take money away from honest,hard-working Americans in order to support a lot of lazy bums in America who want the government to support them for life.
But this is pure poppycock. The vast majority of Americans are not lazy bums who don’t want to work and expect the government to support them. On the contrary,they very much want to earn a decent or better living and to be secure throughout their lives. But current economic and social conditions in America make this extremely difficult,if not impossible for so many Americans. And what thye Republicans in Washington intend to do won’t make things any easier,but only much worse.
So many honest,hard-working Americansincluding many conservatives,are out of work through no fault of their own and struggling to get by. Our government can’t afford to destroy the safety net.
Robert,
If the social system in Europe is working so well, why do they fight so feverishly for abortion rights?
Robert,
Today I watched a reality program about a brave homeless couple. She was 9 months pregnant and lived with her husband in their van. They bathed in and drank from a nearby stream. They panhandled to get enough money to buy their next meal. Two days before they delivered their baby, they found a house to rent in exchange for 20 hours of work per week. They still have difficult times ahead but thank God they are in a better place now. Can you imagine if someone had told them that their poverty was reason enough to abort and they had aborted six months ago? It sickens me to think that might have happened because society tells us abortion is a viable “choice” for poor people.
It is a viable choice Janet, for anyone not just poor people. No one said it was mandatory. So congrats to the brave couple. They’ve made their choice.
The fight to keep abortion legal in Europe has nothing to do with the fact that the social system works so well.Many anti-abortion fanatics there would like abortion to be illegal even if it would kill a woman or ruin her health permanently,or in cases of incest and rape.
Note to self: write thank you letter to mom for permanently ruining her health.
Dear Mom, sorry about the increase in cellulite and the crazy things me and my siblings did to your shape. Sorry about the gray hair and the crow’s feet around your eyes. Sorry about the waffles we made when you were sick that filled the kitchen with smoke. Sorry about the mother’s day flowers; we know, we were wrong to participate in Hallmark’s ‘Honor Your Host’s Uterus Guiltfest’. We really should have jumped off a bridge as soon as we could walk to save you all the inconvenience. Love, Your Parasites.
**what’s that smell? Eau de Sarcasm!**
The fight to keep abortion legal in Europe has nothing to do with the fact that the social system works so well
Robert,
So abortion isn’t needed most by poor people after all? That’s always your contention…
Abortion doesn’t save women’s lives – it kills babies. If a woman’s health is compromised, her physician will care for her and take every measure possible to save her baby. The abortionist is not trained nor prepared to provide this type of care – evidenced by the fact that abortuaries will call for an ambulance or call in a more experienced doctor in the case of an emergency during an abortion. A woman should put herself in the best hands possible during her pregnancy and get a second opinion if her doctor wants her to abort.
ninek, that would be the biggest, hugest, most stretchingest, most extreme extrapolation I have ever witnessed. Well done!
People get cellulite, gray hair and crow’s feet without having children.
Your mother CHOSE to have you so yes, it is appropriate to thank her and celebrate mothers day. And if she wanted you dead she would not have CHOSEN to have you.
cranium, your complete indifference to the youngest, most innocent, most helpless, most defenseless among us is chilling. It chills to the bone.
For what other segment of society do you also advocate legalized murder because they are an inconvenience?
What goes around comes around. One day you may be considered just as expendable as you consider the precious little babies to be. You may be considered an inconvenience, a problem, even an enemy, to someone who doesn’t want to be bothered with you. Those who live by the sword will die by the sword.
Jill, thanks for posting this here. ITA with the pp who noted that this would have been covered by USA media if it had been a pro-abort event.
It is utterly refreshing to know that Europeans aren’t all as liberal as we’ve been told, that there are people there who genuinely love the Lord and cherish life.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen the struggle between good and evil as clearly delineated as I saw it in those photos. Also, the hate focused against Christians couldn’t have been more blatant.
Pre-born and post-born Claire, two different worlds.
Unfortunately, cranium, that’s not true. Legalized infanticide has so devalued life in many people’s minds already that now babies just moments from delivery can be killed legally. There is not a “world” of difference in a baby 2 days before birth and 2 days after birth — the difference is very minimal. The 2-day old baby is completely dependent just as s/he was in the womb. Elderly people are often just as dependent on others. If this slippery slope is allowed to continue, you may end up being just as devalued as you presently devalue nascent children and be treated just as horribly as you are willing for them to be.
Dr. Bernard Nathanson, co-founder of NARAL and strong proponent of legalized infanticide in the 1960s, who helped to desensitize the American public to the reality of abortion and personally committed 75,000 abortions, including at least one on his own child(ren), tells how such semantics and euphemisms as you employ were purposely, consciously used by him and his cohorts to seek to trivialize and minimize the truth of the nascent child. But at least he was honest enough to admit the truth when he saw it via ultrasound in the mid-1980s. Now he tells the truth without seeking to minimize it or trivialize it in any way, shape, or form.
I urge you to visit his website and listen to a man who was once as rabidly in favor of abortion as anyone has ever been — much more so than most.
But it is true Claire. “There is not a “world” of difference in a baby 2 days before birth and 2 days after birth” – well there is actually, they exist in two very different worlds.
“The 2-day old baby is completely dependent just as s/he was in the womb” – not so.
Elderly people have been born, entered this world and lived lives. There’s no slippery slope, they’re in two different playgrounds.
Yes, cranium, the 2-day old baby is completely dependent just as s/he was in the womb. S/he cannot do one thing for him/herself.
I didn’t say the baby’s surroundings were the same 2 days before birth or 2 days after birth. I said the difference in the baby 2 days before birth and 2 days after birth is very minimal (no difference at all in development). And, even though their surroundings change, they are both in the same world around us.
Your attitude toward babies is chilling, is clear evidence of the slippery slope I mentioned. I am truly glad I am not your parent, and that I was not your baby.