It is what it is
Ok, Republicans and Democrats have agreed on a Continuing Resolution that will fund the government through the end of September. A government shut-down has been averted, whether one cares about that or not.
The dust has not settled but here are some apparent take-aways for pro-lifers….
Bad news:
- Planned Parenthood will not be defunded.
Good news:
- DC abortions will be defunded.
- The Senate will be forced to vote separately on defunding PP and on defunding Obamacare, votes our side will lose by the numbers but will find helpful in the 2012 elections. Moderate Democrats will be put in a tight spot.
I’m guessing UNFPA defunding, Title X defunding, and restoration of the Mexico City policy were all riders that were dropped.
I am disappointed about PP but not surprised. We hoped and worked for a miracle, and it didn’t happen. Pro-lifers only rule 1 of 3 branches of government at present.
I reiterate I am amazed the fight over PP got so much attention and was apparently the biggest obstacle. As I tweeted today, this process has only dumped more disastrous PR on PP’s brand. And as Steve Ertelt just tweeted, the Senate PP vote “allows [the] pro-life side to further expose nation’s biggest abortion business. Speaker Boehner win.”
I think Speaker Boehner did the best he could.
Many pro-lifers worked their hearts out the past several weeks to defund PP, most notably Lila Rose. Stay strong, my friend.
Ok, so we get up tomorrow and start fighting again. Most importantly, we start fighting to defeat Obama. His speech tonight made me gag. The key pusillanimous excerpts…
At the same time, we also made sure that at the end of the day, this was a debate about spending cuts, not social issues like women’s health and the protection of our air and water. These are important issues that deserve discussion, just not during a debate about our budget….
A few days ago, I received a letter from a mother in Longmont, CO….
She asked those of us in Washington to get past our petty grievances and make things right. And she said, “Remember, the future of this country is not for us. It’s for our children.”
Today we acted on behalf of our children’s future….
I so loathe that man.
[Top photo via Reuters; bottom photo via UPI]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Yeah, I knew Dems weren’t going to give way on PP. That fight is for another time. We can do the best we can with what we’ve got, and right now, we’ve just got the House.
I, too, am astounded that the PP issue came to the forefront in this situation. I also found it hilarious that the ones who take the blood $$ from PP were the ones saying, “Oh, don’t politicize this!” LOL Riiiight.
Yes obama we acted on behalf of our childrens future. The fact that many children that would be born today will not HAVE a future thanks to you and Harry Reid.
I’m surprised any pro-life provisions got through. The defunding of DC abortions really surprised me, so that is good news. It’s not quite a win, but it isn’t exactly a loss, either.
Those lilly livered bastages
I’m a little more Eeyore than Jill.
Boehner was quoted in Politico not long ago that (paraphrasing) he was committed to defunding PP. Some commitment.
And, what, $38, $39 billion in cuts? Whereas the deficit is holding steady above $1 trillion?
And if the reports are correct, this does not defund Obamacare.
They can’t fight for it now, but we’re supposed to believe that, by golly, they will fight for it later.
2012 needs to get here yesterday.
Guess I’ll have to do a Sarah Palin and reload.
Call me cynical, but how much do you really think the Republicans can get done with Dems holding the White House AND the Senate?
Interesting skirmish. Every media outlet labeled the House stance as the “GOP’s War on Women.” I’d love to see just ONE msm outlet call it by its real name, the “Lefties War on the Unborn.”
“Call me cynical, but how much do you really think the Republicans can get done with Dems holding the White House AND the Senate?”
Nobody respects people who claim to be of ‘principle’ on the life issue and stand down. There is no worthy excuse for funding Planned Parenthood with our tax dollars. NONE. It is abominable deal-making with the devil.
To your point, Kel, probably not much.
I’m simply using their words, not mine, as to what they “promised”, which , I know, one should proceed with caution.
Just don’t tell me “Hey, I’m committed!” when the truth of the matter is, you’re not.
But if it’s any consolation, Daily Kos is lamenting the compromise, too, so I guess something was done right.
Seriously, Carder. We’re supposed to believe that it’s really really handwringingly hard to find $38 billion of unnecessary spending in our bloated budget. We should pat them all on the back for their hard hard work! Keep selling it guys, but I’m not buying. And what’s more ridiculous – the fact that the Republicans didn’t set their sights high enough or the fact that they had to fight the Democrats tooth and nail to get them up from ZERO? Circus music is on a continuous loop in my head as I watch this nonsense.
Agreed Jill – I always get a little nauseous when I try to stomach libs talking about the children. You know the ones we don’t kill, we really really love! I always need pepto to get through an Obama speech.
This is a victory and there will be many, many more victories, some large and some small. In each one, lives are saved, the truth is heard and souls are converted.
I am grateful to all who have worked so hard these past few months, especially Lila Rose, Susan B. Anthony List and the Expose Planned Parenthood Coalition.
I look forward to the vote on defunding Planned Parenthood and all that God has in store for us leading up to this time. Let the light shine in the darkness of Planned Parenthood.
Yes KR. I agree with you and with carder and 2012 cant be here soon enough.
The closer you get to the prize, the more intense the conflict.
But, if at the end of the day you are going to ‘settle for less’ than what you initially demanded, then what does that communicate to your oponent?
What does it commuicate to your supporters?
The repubs are suffering from Harry Reid syndrome. Maybe the repubs can see Chastity Bono’s gender reassigment surgeon about a cajones replacement. A larger set is in order.
Well, TS, I agree with you. I don’t like what they did at all. But I also know that regardless, the Dems were not going to throw away that blood money. They get too much support from the pro-aborts.
And sadly, the Dems are able to spin just about anything their way, with the MSM repeating their propaganda.
“I so loathe that man.”
Jill,
Your are too generous.
b o is not a ‘man’.
A man does not abandon children to a muderous thug.
A man does not resist those who would come to the aid of a child.
b o is a four star class A weasel.His words are as empty as the suit he wears.
truthseeker: “Nobody respects people who claim to be of ‘principle’ on the life issue and stand down. There is no worthy excuse for funding Planned Parenthood with our tax dollars. NONE. It is abominable deal-making with the devil.”
I agree with you completely. This is an extremely tiny victory. More unborn children will lose their lives because the Republicans didn’t stand firm until the very end. Despicable indeed.
There is no victory to be had by causing a government shutdown because you didn’t get your way on abortion. That’s just a fact. You might win in the short-term, but not in the long-term, and long-term is what matters. A government shutdown has serious ill-effects and would affect millions of people, few of which would be too happy with the party seen to be the cause of it. In the end, whether you agree with their decision to do so or not, Republicans at least gave the appearance of caring more about the public than ideology, while Democrats the appearance of caring more about ideology than the public. That’s not a good message for the Democrats to be sending.
As it is, few people vote solely on the abortion issue, and those who do are more likely to vote pro-life than pro-choice, anyway. Most people, especially today, care about fiscal issues more than social ones. Sure, the Democrats can return to their districts and pat themselves on the back for defending ‘abortion rights’, but they’ll be playing to an icreasingly small percentage of their base who make abortion their top priority or a deal breaker, while Republicans can at least argue that they got went in with a goal to reduce the deficit (albeit be a paltry amount), and accomplished it. The latter will pay bigger dividends in the future than will the former.
If the abortion card didn’t help Democrats in 2010, why think it differently in 2012?
Some Guy, I can wait till 2012 or beyond for the abortion issue to be ‘taken on’. I won’t settle for ONE MORE DAY of them using MY taxes to Planned Parenthood so they can expand their abortuary network into my neighborhood. They are a blight. Did you see that huge bunker they built on the corner of the residential strip mall in Aurora IL. I don’t wanna be contributing ONE MORE DAY!! I don’t want them expanding and I definitely don’t want the government taking my money to give to Planned Parenthood so they can build a House of Horrors in my neighborhood too!
Some guy ~ “As it is, few people vote solely on the abortion issue, and those who do are more likely to vote pro-life than pro-choice, anyway.” ~
As it is, few people vote solely on whether we should continue to fund the dismemberment of babies in their mother’s womb.
Those who do are pro-life !
Hello!!!!!!!! What is it about the God given, inalienable, Right to Life that we can’t
get??
Leslie, people are too busy. They go through their lives and not even really understand what they are contributing too. Maybe Planned Parenthood hasn’t made it into their neighborhood yet and they believe what they see on the local 6 o’clock news.
And Some Guy, if my shutting the government down hurts somebody then I would hope they would understand why I voted that way and join me in stopping our government from taking our money to fund the abortion industry. It is a really simple concept to understand and really is ALREADY the law. It was the INTENT of the Hyde amendment. The problem is that most if not all of the Democrats who vote against defunding understand this already and they still shirk the law and force our participation (using my dollars to fund the Planned Parenthood). I’d rather shut down anybody who insists I fund that incredibly evil practice of killing babies in the womb and keep them shut down till November 2012 if thats what it takes. Death and despair is all that emanates from those places. They are as phony as their claims of offering health services like mammograms and pre-natal care. I would stand firm and speak the truth and if the public turned against me for it then so be it.
Despicable indeed segamon.
The Senate is already on the record voting against the repeal of Obamacare. They voted as a bloc last February against repeal. And the Senate Democrats will probably use the defunding Planned Parenthood vote to fake people out and vote Yea; all the while knowing Obama would veto it anyway when it passed the Senate. These people are deviant but cunning and that’s why the most pro-abort president in history agreed with the deal. We got had. It’s funny how Harry Reid and Obama work people over with all night literally to deprive them of sleep and wear them down with negotiating till they eventually get them to buy a bunch of crap. We need to take over the Senate and the presidency in 2012 to get any Planned Parenthood defunding done.
I so loathe that man.
Jill,
Don’t loathe him. Pray for him. He is a sad sorry shell of a man who has sold himself. He needs our prayers. The Enemy is taking every opportunity that presents itself to pry away at his fiber. Pray for God’s influence in his life. Pray for his conversion. Pray for a spirit of conviction for the Truth in our president.
Do not loathe him because he is only another man, one who has let evil speak to him, and one who has chosen to listen. Be sad for him, as he is closing the gates of Heaven on himself day by day. Pray for his repentance and conversion. Do not forget that he is as human as susceptible to sin as you!
Defunding Planned Parenthood can be done. Wisconsin is living proof. Governor Scott Walker’s state budget this year not only defunded Planned Parenthood but it also repealed a 2009 law that required health insurance plans in the state to cover contraceptives as part of the prescription coverage. We were able to pass this cause we took over the legislature and the governor’s office and went full boar at them and took on the pro-death lobby and the liberal freaks and public union thugs. It was amazing to live through. Now there is no more forced contribution to the abortion lobby in Wisconsin. And there is no more forced union dues to work in a public job. And did I mention that Walker passed a balanced budget for this year. And we just put the dagger into the liberal’s last attempt at stopping us when we elected a conservative to another 10 year term as chief justice on our Supreme court. I do think America can follow in 2012 and accomplish the same great things that Wisconsin accomplished this tear, if we can win the Senate and the presidency in 2012. On a positive note – the wave is rippling across the nation and could be a tsunami in 2012.
Next on the agenda in Wisconsin is a voter ID bill to help stop the rampant Democratic voter fraud in the state.
So Speaker Boehner gives up on 99% of his pro-life posturing, and Steve Ertelt is still trying to make him look like the hero?
This is why Steve bothers me so much — he’s more concerned about the image of the Republican Party than anything else — watch the way he writes every article. God forbid someone criticize the Party!
“His speech tonight made me gag”
I was right there with you..I had to turn it off….
Amen, truthseeker!!
Onward WI!!
So we got abortion defunded in Amer … oh, it’s DC. And we got the Senate to vote on defunding. And then I hear some pro-lifers say we won. This reminds me of the health care bill when many were so excited about the pro-life Dems on our side and then look what happened. We shouldn’t trust any of them.
“As it is, few people vote solely on the abortion issue, and those who do are more likely to vote pro-life than pro-choice, anyway. Most people, especially today, care about fiscal issues more than social ones.”
But abortion IS a fiscal issue. Considering that entitlement programs such as Social Security are very unlikely to be repealed, I don’t see how the budget is ever going to be balanced when >20% of future taxpayers are killed in utero.
truth –
That budget you talk about is a proposed budget (if I’m not mistaken) – nothing has been passed yet.
It also looks like the numbers will shift a bit – a few Republicans, including the one in my district looks like they’ll lose their jobs in recall votes. Those against Dan Kapanke needed 15K signatures in 60 days. They surpassed the total by 50% in less than half the time, and on early polls, he’s trailing by 16 points.
On Prosser – you need to remember as well that in Feb’s vote, Prosser beat her 55% to 25%. In what, 60 days time, an inferior candidate essentially leveled the field in a voting season where the GOP typically fares well. 30 point lead down to a few tenths of a percent in 60 days (that that is even with the tea party express spending well over a million in the state!).
“Seriously, Carder. We’re supposed to believe that it’s really really handwringingly hard to find $38 billion of unnecessary spending in our bloated budget.”
Easy for you to say. Every dollar of “unnecessary” spending that is cut is a dollar that someone’s district or state is no longer going to be receiving. At the end of the day, a number of representatives and senators are going to have to go back home and explain to their supporters and constituents why their key interests or projects are no longer going to be receiving some or all of the funding they previously were.
“Next on the agenda in Wisconsin is a voter ID bill to help stop the rampant Democratic voter fraud in the state.”
Yeah, tell me about it. Just the other day, the Democratic candidate for State Supreme Court “found” over 7000 additional votes in her favor from an extremely liberal city that supposedly failed to have been counted–oh, wait, that was the Republican candidate, from an overwhelmingly conservative city. My mistake. I’m sure Republicans wouldn’t be screaming bloody murder if the opposite had happened and some reliably Democratic city in Dane County suddenly found 7000+ votes for Kloppenberg.
In what, 60 days time, an inferior candidate essentially leveled the field in a voting season where the GOP typically fares well.
Yup. The prince of darkness and his fallen angels have been putting in quite a bit of overtime in Wisconsin for some time now, but don’t fret ex-gop, we’ve got a grip on them now.
All I can say is I am disgusted and disappointed. A colossal sellout of our country.
I wish I could say I’m shocked, which unfortunately I’m not. Republicans can’t seem to understand what being a winner is. It means your opponents compromise with you, you don’t accomodate them.
The problem for Boehner and the Republicans is, that unlike 10 years ago, the people are watching and the people will be acting. He just leaped off the cliff like so many Democrats did last year for Obamacare.
I have written my congressman and told him if he supports this, I support his opponent in next year’s primary.
joan,
LOL!!!!!!! Get over it. A Democrat Party operative stood over that clerk’s shoulder every step of the way and found that it was indeed a legitimate mistake. LOL!!!!!!!!!
I will give Democrats this though, they have an amazing talent for campaigning in graveyards and getting the dead to vote, so I won’t be surprised if some of the dearly departed in Dane County are found to have cast votes for Kloppenburg.
Hi ts 3:54am
Aren’t we blessed to have a governor with a pair made of steel?
I can only hope this sellout motivates Donald Trump to run. We need a president with a similar pair. In fact, have you noticed its the women of the Republican Party with the steel pairs?
Boehner should have held his ground, eventually PP would have been defunded.
Someone please explain to me how Trump, with his checkered past and mistresses, is suddenly the Christian Conservative darling? Must be the ‘do as I say, not as I’ve done and will continue to do’ principle.
Jennifer – it is the way of the right. If you’ve got a couple of kids and a stable marriage, you are the devil…if you’ve got a history of lady friends and drug/alcohol use, you are the moral candidate!
Hi Jennifer,
I don’t know that he is a CC darling. I support his in your face no-nonsense businessman approach which is badly needed. Sorry, but this isn’t a world where nice guys rule and right now world tyrants are laughing at us. I am convinced with Trump as president they won’t.
I am not a religious person so I can’t speak as a CC. But let’s say you need the best surgeon for the operation that will save your or a loved one’s life. Do you look for the best qualified person for the job or do you do you concern yourself with the number of marriages or affairs this person may have had?
Ex-GOP Voter. It would seem to be that way, wouldn’t it? And they wonder why we’re so cynical about these guys–could it be the fact that hardly any of them actually practice what they preach?
I don’t know, Mary–all I do know is that Pat Robertson and his ilk were fawning all over him a couple of weeks ago. And frankly I’m not all that convinced he would be the best person. We’ve had this sort of thing before–a successful businessman must make a successful candidate–when the reality turns out to be quite different. Remember Ross Perot?
I had hoped that we would de-fund PP, but unfortunately it didn’t happen this time. But I think the fight did show that PP is not as highly supported as we think it is. Not only were their demonstrations totally astroturfed, but their ‘defenders’ were forced to defend them with outright lies.
I have a varied Facebook crowd. I work in a liberal profession and noted there were few posts by those politically-minded liberal friends concerning the issue; and if one appeared it had little comment. No one was picking up the conversation, there was much more discussion of not paying the troops. Though this isn’t scientific, it seems PP is slipping in support.
We have to keep exposing the truth, keep showing the fraud and demonstrate that their is little or nothing going on at PP to support ‘women’s health”. We have to keep the heat on that PP sell Abortion as its primarily, because some folks think they offer pre-natal care. We have to keep telling the Sanger story and keep showing ‘slaughterhouse’ pictures of clinics. We have the truth and we just need people to face it.
Our ‘loss’ last night was not good, but we de-funded DC. We need to keep going, keep shining the light and we will win.
Jennifer – exactly. I think my favorite (one of them I suppose) was the 2008 election and Focus on the Family. McCain was a no-go according to Focus – they were against him. All of the sudden he was the candidate, their political power was threatened if they didn’t get in line, and they became supporters.
At the end of the day, both parties are about one thing – power. Most of their policy decisions are not made in the best interest of the people they govern, but instead, about political payback and those who support and can give them more power. That is why we need a legit third party (imho).
My parents have been happily married for 41 years –three children and the love is still strong. But I vividly recall a supposedly ‘Christian’ woman remarking that because they were liberal they must not have any morals. I wanted to say something to her about ‘bearing false witness’ but wisely kept my mouth shut.
Ex-GOP Voter. Very true, yes.
Hi Jennifer,
IMHO Perot was a looney. He was making such ridiculous claims as the Black Panthers and Cuban hitmen trying to kidnap or kill him. Apparently a BP actually climbed over the wall of his yard and was chased off by a guard dog. Yeah, right Ross. With your millions you can’t afford a better security system than this?
I think he ran more for the fun of it and with his millions that was no problem.
I also think he wanted to wreck it for Bush and in that he definitely succeeded.
Jennifer – I myself have three daughters, been married 10+ years, highly active in a church – yet I’m an evil person on this board because I don’t think the Republican path to fixing abortion is worth getting behind – so I vote left most of the time.
Maybe I should get some hookers and vote for the GOP. Down with old people!
I just loved your use of the word “pusillanimous” in describing what comes out of Obama’s mouth.
It takes two tugboats to turn a ship…Onward to 2012!!
Hi Jennifer 9:41am
All too often I tell people that we never know what goes on behind closed doors and can never make assumptions about people’s lives.
Several of us can know the same person and have entirely different perspectives of him/her.
Its been my experience that “Christian” woman would do better to keep a closer eye on her own marriage and family instead of judging your parents. She may have been in store for a rude shock or two.
I often think this about some of the women I know and work with who can find nothing better to do than gossip. Ladies, you really need to keep a closer eye on your own husbands and boyfriends instead of keeping a close eye on everyone else’s. I will elaborate no further.
Mary,
Yes Ross Perot was not in his right mind. But he was quite popular with some. I’m a bit leery of what they call gimmick candidates, but I do try and keep an open mind. And agreed with you about that woman who made the comments about my parents. It reminds me of an old saying from my great-grandmother, that some people just don’t have enough knitting to do.
“I don’t know that he is a CC darling. I support his in your face no-nonsense businessman approach which is badly needed. Sorry, but this isn’t a world where nice guys rule and right now world tyrants are laughing at us. I am convinced with Trump as president they won’t.”
Remind me how many times Donald Trump has declared bankruptcy again? This guy is not Warren Buffet. He’s a playboy who inherited all of his wealth and squandered a great deal of it. His “in your face no-nonsense businessman approach” is totally made up. The “Donald Trump” you see on The Apprentice is a fictional “reality TV” character.
Hi Jennifer,
LOL. A cute expression. My very dear great aunt would see women talking in front of their houses or on their porch and say, “I bet I could go in their homes and find plenty of housework to do”. She would have too! When she visited us she would rearrange my mother’s living room furniture.
Life has taught me the hard way about making assumptions and repeating gossip.
The fastest and most effective way to make a fool of yourself and get yourself in a lot of trouble? Simple:
1. Shoot off your mouth
2. Get your facts
Even in my old age I slip now and then, but its a rule I try very hard to live by Don’t know why I ever think I’m an exception.
Like I said, it never fails.
You have to pick and choose your battles. Do you not realize that if the government had shutdown because of abortion, how much damage that would do to the pro-life cause? You take the victories you can get and live to fight another day.
The bigger issue is that Republicans come out ahead here, whereas Dmocrats would have come out ahead if the government shutdown. Which would you rather?
joan 10:07am
He declared bankruptcy but rose to the top again. Maybe he can do the same for our bankrupt country. He certainly can’t do any worse.
“He’s a playboy who inherited all of his wealth and squandered a great deal of it”
I didn’t realize we were discussing that Democrat icon Ted Kennedy.
Hi someGuy,
I must disagree. For various reasons, mainly budgetary, this will be seen as a cave-in.
Like I said, the Republicans forgot who won the last election and why.
How is it a cave-in? In exchange for getting rid of a few riders (which, mind you, I’m sure the Republican party knew had a snowball’s chance in hell of passing the Senate or being signed by Obama), they got deeper budget cuts, which is precisely what they’ve been posturing about for weeks/months.
Hi Some Guy,
I recall the original promise was 100 billion. Then the Repubs held out for 61B, now its down to 39B. We’re talking pennies here SG, and Boehner even caved on that.
As far as I’m concerned a gov’t shut down is the best thing that could happen to this country.
You may want to check out Dick Morris’ website, he has some great articles on this.
You have to admit SG those folks standing behind Boehner don’t look too overjoyed do they?
“I’m sure Republicans wouldn’t be screaming bloody murder if the opposite had happened and some reliably Democratic city in Dane County suddenly found 7000+ votes for Kloppenberg.”
Yes Joan we would have. And we would have found and prosecuted a lot of Democrats for voter fraud. But you won’t be prosecuting anyone for voter fraud cause Republicans aren’t natural born cheaters like the Democrats are.
This is, overall, a good political result, under the circumstances. Ultimately, babies will be saved through the prayers of the faithful, and I urge everyone to join a 40 Days of Life prayer vigil going on near you. It is truly working to save lives. Babies in DC will be saved, and what’s more the pro-life movement is much more now that Planned Parenthood. Have you seen all the good political news coming from the States? It is wonderful!
John Boehner is in the right place at the right time. I, for one, am going to support him, because we’ve got many political battles ahead.
Our job, politically, is to continue to support those we recently put in office, and continue to work on advocacy and let’s get more new conservative leaders elected.
We have just turned onto the right path, politically, but we just took only a baby step. We have to keep fighting, and if we don’t, we will end up back in the wilderness where we have been for at least 20 years or longer. Personally, I can’t wait to get those Senators on the record about funding Planned Parenthood.
EX-GOP Voter – being “highly active in a church” means jack and squat if you don’t actually FOLLOW the teachings of Christ. Given that Christ commanded us to observe the commandments, one of which is “Thou shalt not kill,” I fail to see how anyone can be a Christian and support the Democratic party — a vote for the Dems is a vote for abortion, plain and simple. I learned this the hard way — I used to be Democrat, even after converting to the Catholic Church. After a long struggle, I finally acknowledged that I couldn’t in could conscience continue to vote Democrat, no matter how much I approved of their social programs, given the party’s enthusiastic support of the murder of unborn children.
I’m not to thrilled with the Republicans, either. They talk the talk but aren’t that great when it comes to walking the walk.
I feel politically homeless.
“Personally, I can’t wait to get those Senators on the record about funding Planned Parenthood. ”
David, which Democrats in the Senate still pose as being pro-life? Ben Neslson is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.
It’s a good time for the Wisconsin Democrats to consult their attorneys about leaving the state again. Maybe if they leave the state permanently they can’t be voted out. lol
Joan: “At the end of the day, a number of representatives and senators are going to have to go back home and explain to their supporters and constituents why their key interests or projects are no longer going to be receiving some or all of the funding they previously were.”
Cry me a river. The jig is up. Both parties got us into this mess and anyone who thinks we’re getting out of it w/out some…no make that a LOT of cuts we wish we didn’t have to make is deluded. Frankly, I don’t care which party does it, but someone needs the cajones to tell the American people to man/woman up and take their big boy/girl pills. The gravy train has reached it’s final stop. Given that the Democrats didn’t want to cut ANYTHING, I know which party I’m more hopeful about, but it remains to be seen if the Republicans have the guts to make the big cuts.
@Some guy – I agree with you. I think the shut down would have ultimately hurt the pro-life cause, redirected people’s rage about the budget and spending toward the pro-life efforts, made PP the martyr in the eyes of the public , and after all that might not have even resulted in the defunding. I’m very disappointed, and I’m waiting to see how forceful the Republicans are about keeping up the pressure on that issue after the fact.
As for Trump – I think he’s just got a lot of name recognition right now. I’m not even sure he’s in this for anything more than classic Trump self-promotion.
Republicans just use pro-lifers. They never had any intention to defund planned parenthood.
JoAnna – I think you could make the exact case for both parties.
truth – if you think voter fraud only happens on one side of the aisle, then you have pretty big blinders on.
Ex-RINO, The GOP doesn’t make it part of their campaign to ship in “community organizing groups” like Obama’s Ex-Employer Acorn to openly commit voter registration fraud and then cast votes illegally etc. Need I go on?
CT 1:19PM
This sellout did nothing for the PL or Republican cause, if anything it set us back.
Like you, the Republicans are afraid of hurting feelings. Gee, people wouldn’t like us if…. The Democrats are not.
The Republicans have sent the message they will compromise, not act like the victors they were, and have now proven they are not. What chance is there of getting any of the Republican agenda passed, i.e. defunding Obamacare, when the Democrats know the Republicans will go weak kneed?
Hi ts 12:10PM
Ben Nelson, he of “cornhusker kickback” fame? I’d rather not have him on our side, assuming he even is. Well maybe if the price is right. This guy doesn’t even have the sense to be discreet about taking a bribe.
Truth
Yawn
And let me guess, Obama put together the whole scheme as we was being born in some foreign land…
Mary, I would not put my trust in Ben Nelson, he is just the only Democratic senator I could think of who even tries to say they are pro-life. Do you know any others?
Hi ts,
No I can’t, but I wouldn’t believe them anyway if they did. Democrats are always Democrats first and foremost and it is always to our detriment to believe otherwise.
Sarcastic deflection suits you well Ex-RINO
And as far as your previous comment:
“that that is even with the tea party express spending well over a million in the state!”
I am sure you are aware that the Democraptic candidate had 3.5 million spending from the public employees unions and Planned Barrenhood etc. And you are aware of the slanderous ads directed at Chief Justice Prosser and which Kloppenburger wouldn’t renounce at the debate. We were outspent 3.5 to 1 and still won. It was an interesting race wasn’t it?
truthdodger
All I’m saying is, it is the same old game with you.
“Oh, I love Paul Ryan’s plan though I know nothing about it”
“Oh, here is what Wisconsin is doing even though they haven’t done it yet”
“Oh, Obama’s plan is going to do x, y, z, though I have no source or info…”
It just gets old quite frankly.
I love chatting with Paladin. Some of my best friends are right wingers. They know what they are talking about and bring more than bumper stick slogans to the table.
ts,
The sexual abuse victim even came forward and demanded that Kloppenberg remove that false ad against Prosser. You’d think out of respect for this victim and his courage in coming forward she would renounce this ad and demand it be pulled.
No dice.
Mary – it wasn’t her ad
I didn’t say it was her ad, but it was on her behalf and she could have, at the very least, denounced it and demand it be pulled.
“Oh, I love Paul Ryan’s plan though I know nothing about it”
It’s been a couple of years since we talked about Ryan’s old plan. And we haven’t even spoken about the current Ryan proposal that was just released last week. Why are you so angry?
“Oh, here is what Wisconsin is doing even though they haven’t done it yet”
It was just an honest mistake. I had read an artice last Tuesday about Walker signing the budget into law. After further research it was this years budget. The Planned Parenthood defunding comes up in the bi-ennial budget proposal now on the table. You might want to consider calling your Democrat representatives and them to proactively leave the state now before the bi-ennial budget comes up for vote. Wouldn’t that be funny if they were out of the state for their recall elections?
“Oh, Obama’s plan is going to do x, y, z, though I have no source or info…”
I have no idea what you are thinking when you reference x,y, and z but I am sure it is imaginative. Next time try to just type exactly what you feel. lol
You said “…that Kloppenberg remove that false ad against Prosser”.
How would you suggest she remove it if it wasn’t her ad?
There were a lot of attacks by third party groups – I didn’t see either candidate denounce one of them.
I didn’t know a ton about either candidate, but what I knew wasn’t goo – not happy with a choice of an untested, biased judge in one corner vs a guy who is biased and once called a fellow justice a “b*tch” and “threatened to destroy her”.
Not good options.
Truth – we just talked a few months ago on it – we talked about the medicare vouchers (which you didn’t know existed) – and the taxing of poor and middle class more to give a greater tax break to the rich.
On the Obama health care plan, you continually spout in regards to costs and coverage and anything else you’ve seen come out on fox.
EGV,
He asked Kloppenburg to stop these false ads, since it was her allies putting them out, and she refused. You can check the video yourself.
Though it looks as though Prosser has won it is hard to say whether it was a referendum on the budget battle. Of course that was the way the left was playing it up when it looked as though Kloppenburg won–and they can still claim as much because she did as well as she did.
All the results show is that the state is evenly divided. Repubs can take encouragement from the fact that despite all of the leftist hype about our values under assault by the “hitler” Walker it doesn’t seem that the majority agreed with that negative assessment.
Mary – I’ve seen the video. She could have denounced it, but she couldn’t have pulled it, as you suggested.
I’ll say it for the second time…”There were a lot of attacks by third party groups – I didn’t see either candidate denounce one of them.”
Jerry – we have a very divided state right now (I suppose we can say that about the country…).
The left in Wisconsin is taking pride in getting so close in a battle that didn’t look like it would be close at all just two months ago.
The right in Wisconsin is taking pride in winning that race even though Prosser was linked so hard to Walker.
Who knows how it all plays out – we have both a recall election and an assembly seat up for vote in short order…so we’ll know more then.
Hi Jerry,
That’s how I have looked at it. Kloppenberg should have known to refrain from any victory dancing with only a 204 point lead.
The conservatives came out in force and gave the unions a run for their money, or should I say the taxpayers money. Obviously people are supporting Walker.
Ex-RINO,
You deflect cause the truth doesn’t support your positions.
1) You make note of the 1 million dollors spent by PACs for Prosser.
2) I make note of the 3.5 million dollars spent by the Kloppenberg PACs.
3) You deflect with conjecture about Obama’s birth certificate and Obamacare and Paul Ryans plan.
I think you are angry cause you lost the Supreme Court race even though you outspent us 3.5 to 1 and you ran such an exhaustively sleezy bullying campaign.
EGV,
Permit me to repost for you:
The sexual abuse victim even came forward and demanded that Kloppenberg remove the false ad against Prosser. You would think out of respect for this victim and his courage in coming forward she would renounce this ad and demand it be pulled.
I pointed out what the victim said. I said that out of respect for this victim and his courage in coming forward, it could not have been easy, she could demand it be pulled, which she could, not that she could personally pull it.
truth – so we’ll start with your last question.
First, can you post your source in regards to the 3.5 to 1 spending?
I’d rather use these numbers – http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/elections/article_973f5014-5fe2-11e0-abe0-001cc4c002e0.html
2.2 million from the right vs 1.4 million from the left – but that is just outside the state spending – not sure what it is inside the state – so I’ll need to see the link/source of the 3.5 to 1 spending.
Thanks
Mary -
Was it false though?
What do you make of this story?
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/29510659.html
Merryfield, just a couple of years ago said Prosser shouldn’t be involved in a case, saying…”He knows damn well what happened and what was said,” said Merryfield, now 43. “He dropped the ball, and he should recuse himself.”
There were a lot of attacks by third party groups – I didn’t see either candidate denounce one of them
Exactly what ad(s) do you believe Prosser should have denounced? Kloppenburg lost the chance she had to win when she refused to denounce that nasty, nasty ad EVEN AFTER the victim of childhood sexual abuse asked her to. Best estimates are that she lost about 10,500 votes by not defending the children of our fine State. Bad choice on her part.
It is what it is.
EGV,
Interesting article, thank you. Only Merryfield can answer that question.
Ex-RINO.
“according to campaign finance reports filed with the Wisconsin Government Accountability Board, Kloppenburg has spent at least $290,000 on media buys (including TV and radio), and Prosser has spent at least $148,000 on media buys.”
That is 2:1 outspent there. But according to same source Processer PACs did outspend Kloppenberg PACs by a margin of 1.8 million to 1.2 million. All of the for Kloppenberg donations came from a single source, the Wisconsin Club for Growth (I think the public unions gave most of this money to the WCFG). It would be more representative of who they are if they called themselves the Wisconsin Club for Growth of Government.
http://tinyurl.com/44du393
If you add it all up it would come out to 4.2 million in Kloppenberg spending and 3.3 million spent in Prosser. Outspent 4.2 million to 3,3 million according to these numbers reported to the Government Accountability Board. The 3.5 to 1 must have been on a certain kind of funding and I can’t find that. These numbers show Prosser and his supporters were outspent four dollars for every three. Prosser was perjured while Kloppennerg refused to renounce it and the citizens of Wisconsin were bullied by federal employee union thugs and the citizens still came through on top.
Next on the agenda the vote on the bi-ennial budget and Voter ID. That should be interesting to watch too.
Mary/Praxedes – I don’t know what to make of the article and the whole issue. Why was it a big deal in 2008, and then a touchy issue in 2011? I don’t have the answer.
On the “what should he have denounced” – I don’t actually know (didn’t watch any ads – have a DVR!) – I just know when they had their debate, she mentioned there were ads attacking them both and he wasn’t denouncing anything (I don’t have her exact wording).
It was a tough election – I didn’t like either candidate – wished we had a “none of the above” option.
truth –
So you posted a 1.5:1 in favor of Prosser – I’m asking for the link that supported this comment (which I think you have since edited, removing the question, but keeping the 3.5 to 1 stat):
“What are your thoughts that you outspent us 3.5 to 1 and ran an extremely sleezy bullying campaign and lost?
Ex-GOP, I also heard Kloppenburg state during debate that Prosser wasn’t denouncing any ads either but I didn’t see any ads that he needed to.
I was extremely disappointed to hear that Prosser admitted to calling Shirley Abrahamson a
b%tch and later ‘apologized” by stating, “I probably overreacted, but I think it was entirely warranted.”
There is definitely some dysfunction going on in the courts but I can never in good conscience vote for someone who is okay with the legalized killing of our preborn over someone who is not.
Like Jill, I too loathe our current president and think Wisconsin’s governor would make a great president. The next few years are going to get more interesting to say the least.
Praxades -
Here’s a controversial ad that was labeled misleading that Prosser said he wouldn’t denounce.
http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/article.php?article=32974
I would LOVE if Walker announced a bid immediately for 2012 and stepped out of the governors spot!
I am sure you would. You could remove your cup if he did. lol
Just imagine, then statists and the abortion undustry wouldn’t have to flee Wisconsin.
Hey truth – still have that question hanging out for you – I don’t want to be accused of dodging one of your questions – so either send me the link or rephrase your question. This is what I am referring to:
“What are your thoughts that you outspent us 3.5 to 1 and ran an extremely sleezy bullying campaign and lost?
Here Ex-RINO, I had heard it verbally from somebody. I’ll rephrase it.
“What are your thoughts that you outspent us 4:3 and ran an extremely sleezy bullying campaign including death threats and physical intimidation and lost?”
Truth – need a link on the 3:2 – the link you provided had spending a lot higher on the side of Prosser. The link I provided had that as well.
The only place I can find 3.5 referenced with relation to campaign spending is the total PAC spending by both sides. I had heard that verbally so I must have thought it was just Kloppenbeg when I heard it. My latest calculation from today’s research put Kloppenberg spending at 1 million public and 1.2 million from a single contributor WCFG and Prosser spending one million in public funds and 1.8 million in PAC contributions from a total of four different contributors. So Prosser did outspend 2.8 million to Kloppenbergs 2.2 million. Let me rephrase the question one more time.
“What are your thoughts that you lost the election even though you ran such a no holds barred and unscrupulous campagn of sleezy bullying including death threats and physical intimidation?” Would you attribute it to the fact that you were outspent 2.8 million to 2.2 million or was that spending difference just a symptom of the peoples rejection of ideology and fleeing the state etc?
Sorry truth for continuing to split hairs, but I know you like that I answer things directly, so we have to make sure we’re clear on what we’re answering.
Can you link to the Prosser getting death threats?
Also, I didn’t run a campaign – you might be confused about my job, but I can assure you that I am not a political operative – so when you said “you ran such a no holds barred”…that is in error. I didn’t run anything.
Thanks.
Thank you Jill for all you do….I reposted “it is what it is” on my FB.
I realize that the GOP has only 1 of 3 of the entities that enact laws – but that entity happens to hold the power of the purse strings. There is no excuse for them not holding firm, and I’ve not one shred of confidence that they’ll hold firm in September. Remember – it was Reid, not Boehner, who threatened the shutdown. I say the shutdown should have been allowed to happen. We’ve got to stop wimping out and start standing on principle regardless of political cost.
Not you personally, but the candidate you supported did refuse to renounce lies about Prosser that even the victim of the crime asked her to. Did you see or hear her response? The death threats came from public union backers during the budget debate and they were on Republicans who were voting on nion thugs when they pressed everybody from corporations to Mom and Pop busineses with letters threatening boycott if they wouldn’t hang union FISTS in the windows of their businesses.
I am angry and mad. The Republican party might as well remove the Pro-Life planks from the party platform. I am even more dis-appointed in the Speaker of the House, but it could be worse.
I was hoping for a “sign of national repentense” by the defunding but nope. So, I suggest that as rain falls on the just and the unjust that ProLife Christians be asking God to take us through whatever judgements befall us. I am tired of broken promises. I am so glad I do not financially support the Republican party.
truth – so you want me to comment on the Prosser election, but also comment on death threats that weren’t part of an election – but part of the debate cycle – and you want me to hit it all at once? Should I maybe comment on the Crusades at the same time? Or WW2? How big of a span of things do you want commented on?
I have a lot of strong feelings on the Prosser election – can you just state first that death threats weren’t part of the game, and that the Prosser side outspent Kloppenburg by hundreds of thousands of dollars. If you can state those things, then I think we have the question boiled down to something I can answer. I think it wound stand at:
“What are your thoughts that the left lost the judicial election? Would you attribute it to the fact that you were outspent 2.8 million to 2.2 million or was that spending difference just a symptom of the peoples rejection of ideology and fleeing the state etc?
Janet Baker 10:27PM
Nothing like letting your opponents know you will cave, right Janet? Great for future confrontations you know will occur.
Like you Janet I am totally disgusted. Isn’t it amazing that its the women in the Republican Party, i.e. Michelle Bachmann, who have the steel pairs?
This wouldn’t have happened if she were speaker.
Ex-RINO, The death threats came from the same union supports who intimidated the mom and pop shops during the Prosser election. If you can’t even connect the dots between the budget battle and the Supreme Court election then don’t bother. I understand why. Have a nice day.
“I so loathe that man.”
Jill, he’s actually a pretty decent guy and pretty darn good president.
Jill loathes him. That is her humble opinion.
You think he is a pretty decent guy and a pretty darn good president. Whatever that means. That is your humble opinion, Hal.
I am looking forward to 2012 when we replace Obama.
Hi Carla. I’m sure you are looking forward. I, obviously, hope he gets another 4 years. Time will tell. Depends a lot on who the Republicans nominate. And, what happens between now and then. Too early for me to make any bold predictions.
I hope things with you and your family are going well.
Hal, I won’t make any bold predictions either but I’ll tell you what I see. Obama didn’t even pass this years budget last year when it was supposed to be passed. At that time when he was supposed to pass a budget he also had supermajority control of the house and senate. That is a pretty darn bad president. But he continues to be historic cause he is the only one ever to do be that fiscally laxidaisical. He is at the lowest approval rating of his presdidency. I even see him losing support among the people I know who voted for him. They see the jobs heading oversees and gas prices and food prices rising largely due to Obama’s energy policies and the US miliary engagement he started in Libya. What if gas got to $5 a gallon, would you still vote for him?
Hi Hal.
We are well!!
So far Herman Cain intrigues me. :)
truth – what an odd thing for you to say after I’ve spent the time trying to get what you were asking and clarifying questions. If i were going to bail, I would have a while ago.
After multiple requests though, you haven’t provided links on the “death threats”, so I’ll answer in general. During both the Wisconsin Union vote and the Health Care Reform battle, there were a lot of unfortunate death threats and displays of uncivil behavior. It is a sad thing that has happened in this country – the lack of civility in political discussion, and I think that Christians should really step up and try to take the debate back to a higher standard, where people can disagree with each other while still being respectful towards each other. The tea party and unions have brought things down, and it is unfortunate. I will pledge to you though to try to be more understand and less hostile, as I’m sure you are a decent person that I simply disagree with in regards to politics.
In regards to the election – we need to start in Mid Feb. When it was a primary, the sitting judge easily won in narrowing down the election (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/files/elections/2011/by_county/WI_Supreme_Court_0215.html?SITE=AP&SECTION=POLITICS). 55% to 25% over a lesser known Kloppenburg. She got just 104K votes and was a virtual unknown.
That was February 16th if you missed the date on that. On April 6th, this candidate (who I believe was underqualified and not ideal) won half the votes – 740K. The vote went from 55%-25% to what, 51-49%?
In regards to the campaign itself, it certainly is bad news for the few recall elections that are coming up. Dan Kapanke is most likely toast. It looks like there’s probably 2 or 3 other GOPers that will come to a vote – not sure if any will be successful – too early to tell.
Kloppenberg losing was a tough one – mostly tough because she ended up having a legit chance. It was like Butler losing in the NCAA title two years ago – they should have just been happy to be close, but when they ended up almost winning, then it is tough they lost. What I’m saying is, she had no business being close:
– She was running against a long standing sitting judge
– She was outspend by over half a million bucks
– She was running against a guy for a party that had just easily taken a state wide GOP race less than 6 months previously.
Yet she still got close, which is crazy.
I was disturbed, as it appears you were, of the 3rd party ads. Both candidates had groups spend over a million on ads – money that was outside the state, on ads that weren’t substantial, and in multiple cases, pretty low in regards to principles (I linked to one previously that Prosser refused to denounce – and we all know about the other ad in regards to the sex abuse scandal). I don’t like the thought of judicial races becoming so politicized. How can a judge stay unbiased after getting millions in contributions? They will surely owe somebody – and I don’t like that from either side.
In regards to the individual ad on the sex abuse case. I’d love to know more about it, especially the flip-flopping of the victim (that it was a big deal worth talking about in 2008, but not now). I do have a question though. Let’s say an abortionist did something unethical. Let’s say the woman in the abortion asked people not to talk about it, run ads, or display info on it. Should that request be respected, or should people know because there’s a greater issue at stake?
I wondered that a bit in this 3rd party ad (which by the way, Republicans have fought tooth and nail to allow these third parties to say whatever they want with as little disclosure as possible – so for anybody upset about this, can you please let me know your solution – would love to know). If Prosser did something that was possibly on the fringes of ethics, should the people know, regardless of the request of the victim? It is a tough call.
I voted for Scott Walker. The La Crosse Tribune and other papers in the area endorsed him as being able to best attack the budget issues – and I agreed with them. They also said that their big sub-bullet to the endorsement was that he needed to be fiscal, not political.
He’s gotten way too political, and the things he could have addressed fiscally, he has decided to also attack politically – and it is a shame. He’s been a terrible leader – sure, you can agree with his politics, but they way he’s divided the state and dealt with issues is less than what I’d expect from a mid-level manager. I’m glad that the way he went about getting things done is going to cost him support (as it looks like a few folks will lose their jobs, and his approval rating has gone down the toilet).
…that was getting long, so I dropped to the next post.
So yes, it was a closer vote than I ever thought, and a campaign that was more biased than I thing a judge’s election should be. I hope we find some true leadership in this state to start stepping out of this rut we are in.
While I’m on a roll…2012.
I think I think a couple of things:
1) Obama is vulnerable, like Bush was in his 2nd term election.
2) If the GOP trots out somebody who’s not a great candidate, they’ll lose – plain a simple.
3) I think there’s two great gifts given to Obama – Paul Ryan and the union debate. In Ohio, Wisconsin, and a couple other ballot states, the “enthusiasm gap” has narrowed considerably, and the Democrats won’t be as dispassionate as they were in 2010 elections. In regards to Ryan – first off, his plan has some sparkles of validity to it – it isn’t all bad. However, in regards to the GOP (as we saw in 2010) – it is much easier for a party to simply attack the other side’s principles without having a specific plan of their own. Now Ryan has a plan (guideline more accurately), and it has a lot of things to attack in it that could hurt the GOP. The Dems will actually be able to point at plans and people now and say “see, look how they act when they are in charge”. We saw how successful that was for the GOP in 2010, and now it will be possible for the Dems in 2012.
I’m not saying the GOP can’t point fingers as well – I’m saying that both sides have something to go off for for next election, and you can be darn sure the enthusiasm gap will be a lot tighter this coming election.
Let’s say an abortionist did something unethical.
You must have though you were still commenting at The Abortioneers with that comment, Ex-GOP.
Prax-
???
What is the abortioneers?
“What if gas got to $5 a gallon, would you still vote for him?”
Sure I would (Depending, I guess, on who’s running against him). I don’t want gas prices that high, but I’m not going to vote for someone based just on that. Maybe I’ll have to trade in my yacht for a sailboat. (joking).
Carla, I don’t know much about Herman Cain. I’ll take a look. Probably a tad conservative for my taste. We’ll see.
I don’t know much about Cain, but have assumed GOPers wouldn’t vote for him after they cried about Obama’s lack of experience when he was running for President.
I’m hoping the GOP roles out Michelle Bachmann.
To most of us Hal. $5 gas means $4 milk and cost of food going up. That means you have less money for food and food gets more expensive. Put it all together and it means less food on the table and NO chance to put money into savings. Energy prices matter more than you may think.
The Abortioneers are a bunch of proaborts who tote how loving, caring and ethical abortionists are toward humans. Check ’em out.
You may not have noticed but the prolifers here at Jill’s believe abortionists are unethical because, well because they are abortionists.
Thanks Prax…I think you know what I mean – outside the boundaries of the law, or in the fringes of the law.
Truth – you are right – energy prices always factor in, but it depends on who the American people blame for their source of pain. I don’t know the answer to that.
“The tea party and unions have brought things down, and it is unfortunate.”
Your side tried desperately to paint the tea party as racist but they couldn’t so now they just cast accusations about being extreme. Especially with the cuts they want in spending. But I really don’t understand your analogy comparing them with the unions. Tell me. In what way has the tea party brought things down?
“Truth – you are right – energy prices always factor in, but it depends on who the American people blame for their source of pain. I don’t know the answer to that.”
Ex-RINO, I do know the answer to that. We blame the guy sitting in the oval office admitting he is designing an energy policy intended to raise the cost of energy by using EPA regulations, He is proud to “bankrupt anybody who tries to start a coal plant”. Here is a link so you can hear Obama say that “under my CAP and Trade energy plan energy costs will necessarily sky-rocket”:
http://tinyurl.com/6q2tjb
And we blame his moraorium on drilling in the US. All the while during his recent trip to Brazil he offered Brazil US tax dollars to fund off-shore drilling there so they could sell it to us. The man is an imbecile.
http://tinyurl.com/65opeox
Don’t misunderstand me. I didn’t like $4.00 a gallon gas prices when we had them under Bush and I don’t like them now. It seems to me, however, that Obama is trying to implement a policy that will reduce our need (and thus the price) of oil.
Hal,
Then why was Obama in Brazil a couple weeks ago offering to give them US money to use towards increasing their off-shore oil production?
Hal,
The only time gas was $4 a gallon under Bush was between June and August of 08 and by December 08 the average was $160 a gallon. Here is a link:
http://tinyurl.com/6p36u5
How do you think Obama’s ENERGY policies are gonna pull that off? Are your tires inflated to Obama’s standards? Have removed all of the dimmer switches in your house yet so that you could comply with Obama’s light bulb standards?
ExGop,
I love Michelle don’t get me wrong. But I say no to her running. :) I didn’t cry over Obama’s lack of experience. I didn’t vote for him because he is a proabort.
Hal,
Considering your tastes then YES Cain is too conservative for you!! ha
We shall see how 2012 shakes out though won’t we?
Jill:
I can appreciate why you would know Obama better than most because of going head to head against him in Illinois. Obama lied about his position on Infant Born Alive and tried to defame those who called him on it. That we got this legislation passed is due to your speaking out on what you witnessed, no thanks to Obama!
He is indeed a fraud and a liar–without question the worse pres we have ever had.
Truth – in regards to your question at 6:31…I think the racist label has stuck pretty good – the polls number continue to slip on their favorability ratings (http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0311/52207.html)
In regards to your final question though – I think both Unions and the tea party present a false choice. Both of their positions need to be compromised. On the union side, workers must sacrifice for business to work. On the tea party side, the demands of a balanced budget and never touching taxes just doesn’t work without letting people die – plain and simple. Both groups take extreme positions that if, put into law unchecked, would crash the country.
Ex-GOP says: April 10, 2011 at 9:39 pm
“On the tea party side, the demands of a balanced budget and never touching taxes just doesn’t work without letting people die – plain and simple.”
=====================================================================
Ex-RINO,
If it is so ‘plain and simple’ please provide us with some verifiable examples of people dying as result of cutting spending and reducing taxes.
And while you are at it please define ‘rich’ and ‘fair share’.
Ken – it is pretty simple – if you believe that preventative medicine means anything – does any good…if you have friends or family who have had a lump, been sick, or had something else that you’ve said “you should go get checked for that”…in those cases, history and numbers show up that if people have coverage, they go in and get it checked. If people don’t have coverage, they don’t. Cutting things like Medicare and Medicaid lead to less people with coverage, thus, less people who will get care they routinely need – thus, more people will die. Nikki White is a case you can verify…but again, logically, if you believe preventative care has any merit, ask yourself why it does?
In regards to rich and fair share – I agree with the basic structure of the bi-partisan debt commission that handles the deficit with a mix of tax cuts and spending cuts. If you need me to link to that plan, I can.
Hope all else is well –
truth -
What did you think of my Prosser breakdown? A few questions for you:
– Do you think over $3 million in spending on a judges race is a good thing?
– Did you hesitate at all to support a candidate that had called a justice a “b*tch” and said he was “going to destroy her?”
– What do you think is going to happen with the recall elections?
Also, your statement at 12:50 – if it was in response to the direct question you asked me, I hope that you offer something more substantial and less vulgar. If you think that the budget can be balanced without raising taxes and causing people to die, I’m all ears.
If you were responding to something else, then ignore that last paragraph.
Ex-RINO
No.
No.
I don’t think too much will change from the elections held less than a year ago. From what I hear it may actually backfire and end up costing the Democrats.
Like bro-ken said. How about some real statistics to back up that a balanced budget means you are killing people? Maybe you could find some statistics from Indiana where they balanced the budget a few years ago.
And since it is plain and simple; once you gather those statisics post how these numbers are offset by the people that get jobs and pull take care of themselves because the lower taxes made for a job market.
And lower taxes means the people who were allowed to keep more of their tax money are better able to use their money help out their friends and families instead of the government taking it and distributing it. That seems pretty plain and simple.
ExRINO, just how deep does your liberal streak go? Do you have the same concern that women in Wisconsin will start dying of cancer because we defund Planned Parenthood? You do realize that is a farce don’t you?
truth –
Yes – I agree with you (your statement at 9:39) – having lower taxes means more families have money. That wasn’t what I was asked and isn’t part of the conversation. The question was in regards to balancing the budget – again, my position is that you can’t balance the budget without raising taxes unless you are willing to let some people die in the process.
How can I make that claim? Lets start with the GOP’s own argument that health care reform would “ration” health care and would result in death panels. The basic premise is that the government would decide who would and wouldn’t receive care – which is far fetched, but again, let’s start with the argument on the right.
Rationing isn’t just denying care – health care is also rationed by people not affording care. You can look up any source you’d like on the definition of health care rationing and they’ll talk about the financial aspect of it.
Simply put, cutting Medicare and Medicaid programs will result in:
– Either less people covered in general by the programs
– People paying a larger share of coverage
If you know anything about medical care, you know that it can and does save lives. Things like mammograms, regular physicals, diabetes checks – those things catch issues that, if untreated, will lead to deaths. Pretty much preventative health care 101…
So if we cut access to health care through lack of coverage, or create a situation where people pay more (and thus, we know by basic stats more people will skip coverage), unless we don’t put any weight in preventative health care – then we can easily see how cutting insurance is going to cost lives.
Harvard estimates lack of insurance costs about 45K – you can argue that the number is a little high or a little low, but you can’t argue it down to zero.
Covered three of your statements in one post…hope that is okay.
Truth –
A couple of last things:
– We’ll see how Wisconsin plays out – no verified recall elections yet, but two look close. Democrats would need to pick up three seats to switch the majority, and I don’t see that happening. I think one or two is possible.
– I think it is a little disturbing you have no issue with Prosser’s statements…some how, I feel that if Obama said the same thing, you’d be up in arms.
– On your last statement, I don’t know enough about planned parenthood’s funding of cancer screenings – I’ve seen some folks say they do none – I see some folks say 16% of their budget is cancer screening. I don’t work for a planned parenthood, have never stepped in one, nor studied it much so I can’t comment one way or another on the issue. Sorry…
Wondering what the basis for the WI recalls are?? I haven’t signed one petition that has come to my door and none of them could give me a good reason WHY they are collecting signatures. Not liking who is in office isn’t gonna hold up. I would have single handedly recalled Obama already.
Carla – Well, technically you couldn’t do it by yourself because it takes a quarter of the votes cast in an election…but I get your point. :-)
There are recall elections on both sides:
Democrats want to recall 8 GOP state level folks because they say that the “budget” bill (I use that in quotes because they ended up taking the financial aspects out to pass it) was a political attack on unions, something that wasn’t run on by the party – and that it was passed against the will of the people, and passed in pretty shady fashion (there’s different court cases on it now – in one case, the vote was opened and closed in very, very short fashion and a lot of people didn’t even get a chance to vote).
Republicans want to recall 8 Democrats because they left the state when this was all going on to try to slow down the process.
Of the 16, there’s a decent chance 5-7 of them will go to an actual election, where the person would have to run against somebody (not again, it can be a new candidate). This is happening in my district – they needed 15K signatures in 60 days, and got 22K in less than 30 days.
I was not asked to sign, nor did I see out signing. Have not decided who I vote for at this point, but leaning left (I typically lean left) as our guy said it was a vote more in regards to the Milwaukee schools…yet he’s elected to represent US – not them (and a lot of districts in our area had teachers already paying above the 12.5% in which they were fighting for – and now they are trying to further gut education spending).
Ex-RINO,
Where are the statistics? You know, states that balanced their budgets and saw large numbers of people dying? Your Harvard study does not even consider the many positive effects balanced budgets have on peoples livelihoods. I am still waiting for you to find even one real life example of a state that balanced it’s budget and it resulted in the deaths of it’s citizens? And since the premise of this discussion was your statement that the tea party is bringing people down. So you used the balanced budget kills people analogy and it seems silly to me that anybody could be serious about that. Maybe you were confusing balanced budgets with cuts in medical care. Though medical cuts could be a part of balancing a budget but they are not the same thing at all. And I have never heard a of tea party people wanting to cut medical care.
Ex-RINO, You don’t exactly have the fiscal conservativatism in you but maybe if you hung out with the tea party we could help wean you off the Obama-aid. I think you are hearing a lot of false things about the tea party. Wanna see what we are all about come to the rally this saturday in Madison. It is at high noon on the capital steps. I’ll pray the nasty left and the union thugs don’t show up and make trouble. The unions seem to think they can get away with any conduct in Madison now that the chief of police stated publicly he would not have any of them arrested even while they were harassing conservative politicians and defacing the capital. Tea Party rallies aren’t nearly as raucus as the left. I think I’ll strap on my Ovation guitar and bring it along.
Are there any other cheeseheads from this blog that can make it to the rally? What you Carla or maybe X?
Truth – I already threw out a name you can verify – not sure if you are reading my posts fully – “Nikki White is a case you can verify…but again, logically, if you believe preventative care has any merit, ask yourself why it does?”
A study about the uninsured and how many people die from lack of insurance is EXACTLY what you should be looking at in an argument where one of the consequences of a budget is more people uninsured. It is a little silly, the demand for names…if you said that planned parenthood getting more funding would result in more abortions, should pro-aborts demand actual names from you? Or course not! Not if the general statistics tie abortions to more funding. It is silly, logically, to say “oh, I need names”.
“War causes death” – oh, I need individual names or else I don’t believe you!
Come on truth – you are smarter than that!
truth – I know folks who went down to the madison union rallies – sounds like a pretty calm time.
I’m not against the tea party because of any misconduct. I’m against the tea party because they are trying to govern 2011 with 1850’s mentality. Plus, they protest with little alternatives. I don’t care if somebody is against something, show me what you are for. Tea party is against small government, but show how that would work. If Ryan’s plan is the best they have, then I’ll pass…
Wish I could but I am 4 hours to the west.
ExGop,
I figured you knew what I meant. :)
As for the recalls, we shall see.
“truth – I know folks who went down to the madison union rallies – sounds like a pretty calm time. “
Ex-RINO,If you consider breaking in to the capital and ransacking it or threatening members of the legislature trying to get to work as a pretty calm time then ok; we just have different ideas of calm and peaceful.
“It is a little silly, the demand for names…if you said that planned parenthood getting more funding would result in more abortions, should pro-aborts demand actual names from you? Or course not! Not if the general statistics tie abortions to more funding. It is silly, logically, to say “oh, I need names”.
You need to be more honest while reading other people’s posts. I asked for names of states that have balanced the budget and the balanced budget caused the death of the citizenry. I did not ask for names of individual people who died. Individual names would be silly. But you still fail to see how ridiculous your argument is. To say that the tea party are bringing the people down becuase they want a balanced budget and balanced budgets kill people is ludicrous. There is so much more to balancing a budget then ‘medical cuts’ but you don’t seem to understand that. And no tea party platform I have seen even ask for medical cuts. What they are against is Obamacare. What they are for is entitlement reform and policies that reduce the cost of medical care. Rationing and cutting end-of-life care by bureaucratic panels is an Obamacare/ Democrat thing that the tea party has never espoused.
“If Ryan’s plan is the best they have, then I’ll pass…”
Ex-RINO, then just hold on while we teach you fiscal responsibility and get the US back on the path to prosperity.
truth – I don’t think you are putting two and two together though. What happens when we cut Medicare and Medicaid? Do you think doctors that made $200K a year now make $180K a year? No – what happens is people that had coverage don’t have coverage anymore. Or people that could afford medication now skip it because it is either that or rent.
Have you even looked at Ryan’s plan and the medicare vouchers? If you don’t like rationing…than I’d stay away from the plan. And sure, he deals with the entitlements down the road – but talk about kicking it to our kids and grandkids – he essentially raises the deficit in the short term to give huge tax breaks to the wealthy, and takes those tax breaks to cut services to the poor. It’s pretty crazy really – take money from the poor and give to the rich – a little reverse Robin Hood action going on.
I mean, let’s get serious truth – Ryan’s plan:
– Debt held by public would double from 10.4 trillion to 20.8 trillion – nearly 90% of the GDP
– Amount of money not devoted to mandatory health programs, SS, interest on the debt…would be 3.5% by 2050. Can anyone take that seriously
– The GOP put fear into the nation about health care rationing…federal spending for Medicaid would be 49% lower in 2030 than what is currently projected. States just going to pick that up? Also, under Ryan’s plan, Medicare beneficiaries would be paying 68% of out of pocket costs by 2030.
I mean, Bush at least played the compassionate conservative card – we’re going to take care of people while also being conservatives. Now, the right just says screw it – we’re going to give more money to the rich and leave the middle and lower class to figure out how to get by with less services. I suppose if we don’t like it, we can just skip medical care, right?
Come on.
“Amount of money not devoted to mandatory health programs, SS, interest on the debt…would be 3.5% by 2050.”
Huh? Can you just give the link? I think you are missing something in the synopsisizing.
“Also, under Ryan’s plan, Medicare beneficiaries would be paying 68% of out of pocket costs by 2030.”
RINO, Under Ryan’s plan anybody 50 or over keeps the exact same benefits they have now cause he understands these people have planned their retirement on it. The rest would should have a nice lump sum collecting interest free throughout their lives. And if you don’t use what you saved then you can leave it as inheritance to your children etc. No doubt the success of this plan over previous plans will hinge upon writing something into the Ryan plan to keep the hands of big government statists from absconding with out life savings like they did with our Social Security contributions. In fact, just two years ago Obama stole 500 billion from Medicaid to launch Obamacare. I hope/think Ryan will be smart enough to write safeguards into the plan so that the government can’t get to our nest-eggs.
truth:
12:07 post – here is the link to the CBO breakdown (Ryan uses the CBO to hammer Obama…so it should be a fair source) – http://www.cbo.gov/doc.cfm?index=12128
Page 16 of the report has the breakdown of spending and the 3.5% of spending (compared to 7.5% in extended-baseline scenario.
3.5%? Yeah…not going to fly…
Truth – yes – he doesn’t touch Medicare for a while – then he uses a voucher system that doesn’t grow as fast as projected costs will grow – so overtime, more and more costs will be covered by the person on Medicare. The nice double whammy (explained on page 23) is that the projection is that private plans would cost more than traditional medicare: (“First, private plans would cost more than traditional Medicare because of the net effect of differences in payment rates for providers, administrative costs, and utilization of health care ser- vices, as described above. Second, the government’s contribution would grow more slowly than health care costs, leaving more for beneficiaries to pay.”)
So we won’t be actively pulling the plug on granny…she’ll just die in a spare bedroom (nursing homes will get funding cut through Medicaid – page 26…) due to lack of sufficient coverage.
That’s compassionate for ya!
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truth:
Hey, I want to state one more thing. I’m not against all the parts of Ryan’s plan (for instance, I think means testing is a good thing) – and I’m certainly glad he put out a plan. Right now, we need a bunch of plans on the table, real leaders who come to a good agreement on what is best for the country, and put those plans into place. I like some of the stuff from the debt commissions plan. Ryan’s plan has some sense in places. Obama comes out with a plan today (and he better not just gloss over things – I’m sure the right will come full bore on whatever he does – but I trust that the smart folks out there will at least take a look at it without their red colored glasses on – this debate is too important).
I just think, if we’re getting close to “panic” mode, that the plan shouldn’t so drastically cut taxes for a few people while offsetting those taxes by hurting the middle and lower class. Something’s just not right about that to me. I know the conservative argument is that things will trickle down and revenue will increase overall…I just never saw the proof of that in the Bush cuts – so the message and the reality seem way off.
Off to work – have a great day.
ex-RINO, I might be shooting myself in the foot here but….I just filed my taxes and after deductions (6 kis) I end up paying virtually no taxes this year even though I made $80k Under the Ryan plan I think I would actually end up paying close to $8k in taxes. I think Ryan’s plan is more about everybody contributing then it is about breaks for the wealthy. While it is true that Ryan’s plan would increase the actual tax rate on people like me (and 60% of the poplulous who pay nothing in taxes each year) to 10%. The so called rich who make more then 100k would end up paying an honest 25% which is also probably more then they were peviously paying after dedutions. My understanding is that even though Ryan’s plan reduces the tax percentage it also removes most of the deductions and loopholes so it ends up being a tax increase on everybody. I would describe it as a flat tax that is equitably dustributed without loopholes. But in a real sense, even though the tax rates would go down, it would end up being a tax increase on EVERYBODY because we would all lose deductions.
I do like his plan to reform entitlements because government should be forced to live on a balanced budget. Otherwise governement keeps growing and government spending just keeps increasing and soon government is a larger part of the economy then the private people who support them. I would support any plan that moves us away from “bigger government. I think Ryans plan moves us in that direction doesn’t it? I heard it repeals Obamacare. That would vertainly be a HUGE step towards reducing the size of government.
truth -
I think this conversation is wrapping up between us – and I’m glad we were able to have some pretty good discussion.
I think we just disagree on a couple of fundamental issues that divide Republicans and Democrats as well.
The couple of main issues I have on your last post:
1) I support a system in which the poor and middle class pay less taxes. Look at your situation (middle class – around where I am as well) – I think we should have a system that gives families stronger incentive to have kids. Heck, I could make a case that we should tax the rich more just to up the incentive to have kids. End of the day, for a lot of people, whether or not to have kids come down to finances. If we took your situation, and said you’d be paying $8 k in taxes, without a doubt, less people would have kids…heck, look at japan. My understanding, and there’s a lot of good and bad info out there, and a lot of unknowns…is that the (over 250K a year) will pay a lot less in taxes in Ryan’s proposal. If we are really in an economic emergency, I don’t see how we can do that.
2) Entitlement reform – yes. Entitlement gutting – no. I’m 34 – so I would be squarely in somebody’s who affected in the future. Ryan wants to end Medicare, give me a voucher worth an amount of money that doesn’t grow as fast as health care spending will grow, and leave me to the private market. All the projections show that I won’t get as good of coverage, and thus will have to choose between coverage or other basic needs. This is rationing – and maybe the right is cool with that now – they have the right to change their mind… but make no doubt about it, that is rationing at its purest form – and the reason the rationing is exists and the cuts are so deep is to offset the tax break for the rich.
I just don’t really get the swing – at least in the past, the GOP played the compassionate conservative card and did what they could to help the middle class and poor. Now it seems like an all out assault…and a lot of thoughtful, well-minded Christians and other folks in the poor and middle class are jumping up and saying “Sure, raise my taxes, cut taxes for the rich, make me struggle to pay health care costs, and cover less of my neighbors!” I don’t get it.
I can guarantee that the money you don’t pay in taxes gets distributed out in the economy. The government not taking that 8K – I’m sure that didn’t go in a CD, savings…it went into spending, which is what the government wants. I’m not so sure that is the case cutting a millionaires taxes a hundred grand.
So yeah – my summation – I just don’t think it is good economic policy, or even good Christian policy to cut health care for the poor and middle class so that the rich can afford another Yacht.
Ex-RINO, I think 10% is a fair amount and I don’t feel like the “rich” should be forced to raise my children. The way I see it the rich will pay there fair share at two and a half times the rate we pay and without loopholes. The ‘rich’ I know now buy that yacht anyway and entertain ‘clients’ once a month and deduct the cost as a business expense anyway.