Moderator Carla asked a tough question on Facebook this week:
So… what would your response be to a woman who says, “God will forgive me” as she walks into the abortion mill?
Thoughts?
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
oooh, we can never presuppose God’s graces. someone who has that mindset has already determined that God will forgive her. that’s not how God’s forgiveness works, because He can’t truly forgive someone who is not truly contrite for what they have done. :(
God will definitely forgive you, as He is all merciful. Will you forgive yourself?
God’s forgiveness is real. But one must also repent of their sins in order to be forgiven. If you commit this sin their is no going back. The only hope is to wish you had never done it and take it all back. God will forgive you then, but only then, when your drenched in tears and heartbreak, will you look back at this day and wished you had chosen life.
Asking God for forgiveness often means asking him to show the reality of our sin. Are you ready for the magnitude of that sin?
Forgiveness doesn’t take away consequences.
The fact that you say “God will forgive me” shows that you know that you are doing something wrong. I wouldn’t say “God will forgive me” for getting my wisdom teeth pulled because there’s nothing sinful about that action.
Your heart knows that this is wrong. Why are you doing it? Do you know that there are people who can help you?
God will forgive you.
You do not even have to ask HIM.
But you do have to confess first.
It’s in the ‘book’.
What do say to them? Read the book of Romans. “Because we are under grace, do we go on sinning? By no means.”
Maybe God will forgive her for hiring the medical assassin-hit man to butcher her child.
By that logic, then it should be okay to commit any crime you wish, murder anyone you wish, rob banks, cheat on your husband or wife, beat your children, your wife, or your boss at work, all because God will forgive you.
How is there any absolute if a person can do anthing and still be forgiven?
How is that justice or fair when other people are employing enormous self control and self discipline to refrain from commiting crimes, avoiding cheating on their spouse, refraining from cheating, stealing, getting babies aborted, etc.?
How is God good or Just if He will forgive all those who engage in breaking His commandments?
It is not right, not Just, not Fair, and makes the entity “God” nothing but a get-out-of-jail free card, allowing us to do anything we wish because we will be “Forgiven.”
Why should anyone try to follow the Commandments, lead a good, moral life, lead an honest life of non-aggression, when those who don’t do so get the same results as those who do?
I hear this reply often…almost as many times as I have heard.. “I could never give my baby up for adoption” as they are walking into the mill. ??
I appreciate you asking this question and I like all the answers especially PJ and Lauren’s. That is why it is so important to have people of prayer at the mills…they are truly evil places.
Forgiveness is not retroactive permission. It doesn’t work that way. God won’t forgive you if you don’t want forgiveness (i.e., if you don’t repent and have contrition for your sins). He doesn’t force us to love Him, because He respects our free will.
When you sin, you put a kink in the hose. God can’t bestow his graces upon you if *you*, by your use of free will, reject the graces that He desires to give you.
So, when you {general you} choose to reject God, you are putting that kink in the hose.
A contrite heart is the way to bring yourself in full friendship with God.
Being forgiven for committing the act of having your child slaughtered is a selfish act. it is all about the woman, with no respect or concern for the fact that the baby will never see a sunset, never giggle under a fountain, never climb the jungle gym, never smell the intoxicating aroma of a rose, a gardenia, honeysuckle or Jasmin.
Being forgiving for conspiring and taking part in the slaughter of another human being is a rutheles, selfish act, for that child will never know the joy of friendship, never know the joy of success and failure in various endeavors in life, from school work, to sports, to other pursuits. The baby will never grow up to experience the thrill, or possible disappointment of their first kiss, their first love, or their friendships that they build will endure a lifetime.
The woman might think she is forgiven, but what about the selfishness of her action, which prevents baby from ever seeing a blue sky, a running horse, or a beautiful naked woman, or man, in adult men and woman, to never hold your lover close, to never feel that wonderful affection that goes with being truly, legitimately in love with your husband or wife, and the ecstatic joy of finding that you are an expectant parent?
That selfish act of killing your child, under the belief that you will be forgiven, prevents that baby from evern being their to hold his wife’s hand as she gives birth to his child, or the wife to feel the love of her husband as he conforts and supports her during the birth of their child. They will never feel the euphoria of being a new parents, and experience the sweet joy of raising their child and all the wonderful traits and experience that experience includes – selfishness, affection, the parental protection that grows in the mother and the father, the joy and sorrow of watching your child grow, succeed, fail, smile, cry, and more.
If it is easy as deciding that one can engage in aggression against another, and if one’s religion calls it a “sin,” then what does that make of a “Just God” that He will punish no one for their violation of his laws?
What does that say of “God’s” laws if He does not enforce them, but forgives everyone for everything?
How is that just or fair when the victim suffered? Where is the mercy, compassion, and “forgiveness” and protection for the victim if God will forgive the violators of his laws, the people who engage in violent acts and murder against others?
If that is the way God works, then none of us should even bother to behave. If someone gets you angry, kill them, God will forgive you.
If you want to have sex with a beautiful woman, go ahead. it does not matter if she wnats to do, or if you are married to someone else and are merely getting a little variety and fun on the side, God will forgive you.
If you want to steal the neighbor’s car, or the bank’s money, or cheat on your taxes, go ahead. God will forgive you and everything will be just fine.
It makes no sense.
What kind of God would allow such manipulation and moving the goal post to take place so they can do whatever they wish, all believing that, even if it is wrong, or against God’s law, they will be forgiven?
There might as well not even be a law or restrictions on anyone!
William says: April 16, 2011 at 11:56 am
William,
There are some other variables at play that you have not considered in your multiple questions.
Like God is not mocked: Your own karma will ovetake you unless God intervenes.
The lines that God has drawn that HE says do not cross are for our protection and benefit, not HIS.
There are the ‘Darwin Awards’ given to those who have demonstrated that actions have consequences, especially those actions that cross those lines.
I read somewhere that John Wayne said, “Life is hard. It’s really tough if you are stupid.”
William F. Buckley observed, “The bible does not say that stupidity is a sin, but it does frown on it.”
God can fix stupid.
William,
Are you complaining that God paid too high a price your forgiveness or too low a price for the convicted mass murderer who is saved right before the executioner throws the switch?
Instead of slamming the woman with all this religious judgmentality-how about asking her in great depth, listening with humility and compassion, about *why* she feels her child’s life must come to this? And standing at the ready to offer resources to help her with any and all difficulties that she names. Is there any greater witness to the value of her child’s life, and her equally valuable life, than this?
God will forgive you if you authentically repent and believe. But people who kill innocent human beings and say things like that are not on the right path. I pray that God will turn her heart to him.
It’s called the sin of presumption, I believe. Yes God can forgive a repentant sinner – but that person must truly repent of their sin, live a life away from that sin, and truly want to not sin any more.
To presume that God will forgive does not give license for sinful behavior. We are to imitate God – to become more and more like Him – as he was like us in all things except sin.
Yes – the idea to to ask the woman why is she thinking that abortion will solve her problem – why she thinks that the action against her own flesh and blood is ok? Of course she knows what she is doing is against Natural Law, against her family (indeed against her very flesh and blood). At minimum she is recognizing the sin of not following the commandment ‘thou shall not kill.’
Loving her into another position is what is required. God loves us, and that child in the womb too. If possible – by God’s grace – we hope that she rediscovers the natural love of a mother for her child.
As a beautiful nun with the Sisters of Life staed to me about a month ago: ‘Circumstances change.’ Whatever is driving this woman toward abortion can and does change. Presuming that God will forgive, when one intends to truly sin, is really backward.
He loved us into being. He has loved her child into being. Choosing to end that life is choosing against what God wants – and she is walking into that thinking that her life will be better and all will continue as before, minus the pregnancy.
No woman can truly forget the child she conceived. Presuming things will be all better after abortion – physically, emotionally and spiritually, is presuming too much. But God loves still, and so should we.
“How is there any absolute if a person can do anything and still be forgiven?” O dear William: that’s the whole point of the gospel! That while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Only God knows what’s really in the heart of the (hypothetical?) woman who says this. Maybe she is being forced. Maybe she feels she has no other option, no choice. I second Marysia’s 12:20 recommendation to treat this woman with respect and dignity and try to help her and her child.
God’s forgiveness won’t bring back the child. People need to realize that God’s grace guarantees peace in the next life, not this one. He won’t come down and make all the consequences from our mistakes go away. Until the next life, we must face the life that we have made for ourselves. Reap what we sow, so to speak. It’s the downside to free will.
Beyond this, it seems to say something about a person’s relationship with God when they are so willing to take his endless mercy for granted. Makes you wonder if they’ll ever be able to find the sincerity required for forgiveness, since at the moment they seem more concerned with taking advantage of “the system.” No sincerity there.
I think the best reply I heard on Carla’s thread was yes, God will forgive you but His forgiveness does not absolve you of the consequences of your sin.
Maryisa, that is why there are people at the door of the killing mill to offer women help and to let her know that she is loved. your comment of “Instead of slamming the woman with all this religious judgmentality-” was uncalled for. I don’t believe that anyone on this page is doing that. I appreciate all their answers because I could use some wisdom in answering this question. I think that this is why the question is being asked in the first place.
“God will forgive me.”
Maybe. But you’ll still have to live with this choice forever.
You don’t have to do this! We can help you with whatever you need!
The question proposed by Jill was, “What would your response be” to a woman who said this? I understood this to mean, What would you say to such a woman if she said this to you–not, What would you say ABOUT a woman who said this? not, How would you judge her? The discussion that has ensued reminds me of the scripture about Jesus and the woman caught in adultery. After saving her life, Jesus sent her on without consequence and with only the admonition to sin no more. Jesus reveals to us how God acts and will act. Anything else is not the gospel. “Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful. Stop judging and you will not be judged. Stop condemning and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven” (Luke 6:36-37). This does not come naturally or easily to most of us, but it is what God has told us to do. At the time of our own judgment, I think these things will be on the same list as abortion, and in no particular order.
I suppose the rapist and serial killer could say the same thing, right before committing their crimes.
Alice,
To tell the truth is not to judge this woman. I see this mistake all the time with the scripture you quote. God forgives those who repent. When he urges us towards mercy that is not the same as requiring enabling silence. We’re not talking about judging her ultimate salvation but about not allowing this poor woman to walk into sin under the erroneous presumption that God’s capacity for mercy is a permission slip. Do you truly believe that Jesus would want us to be silent and enable our fellow man in sin by our silence. A woman obtaining an abortion is committing a grave sin. Presuming God’s forgiveness without true contrition is a further sin. If a woman asks you this question (and note – SHE has brought up the subject of religion and God in this scenario), you have a duty to answer her truthfully and with love.
As to the question I think I would affirm to her that indeed no repentant sinner is beyond the reach of God’s mercy, but that she will have to endure the pain of contrition – of knowing that she willfully committed this act, knowing that it was wrong. Why would you knowingly offend God and put yourself through that suffering when there are so many better options! I would then tell her of all the help available and the support that can be offered etc.
I would say, “If you trust God enough to know that He will forgive you, why don’t you trust him enough to know that He will help you through your pregnany, no matter what the circumstances?”
And that yes, God will forgive, always, but her baby will still be dead.
Yes, God may forgive you, but you are willfully & with full knowledge committing murder of HIS child. Remember the 10 Commandments? Thou Shalt Not Murder. He gives you choices in life but wants you to make the right choice.
William,
I understand your sentiment, but it alarms me with it’s pride. God’s justice is exactly that – just. And perfect. It’s free of all the sinful desires that accompany our notions of justice – like revenge and pride. We will all stand before Him one day and He will see our hearts bare – as no human can see them and our ultimate salvation will rest on that. You’re essentially saying that God is unfair, but you don’t need to worry – no one is going to fool Him by leading a life of wanton sin and then pretending to be sorry or by proclaiming Him with their lips and denying Him in their hearts and deeds. If you trust in God, you can be certain that he won’t make a mistake.
Lori – I love that answer!
CT, you misunderstand me. I said nothing about not telling this woman the truth about abortion–the abortion mill she is entering certainly will not. But to make judgments about the true state of her soul, which only God knows now and which only God will know at the time of her judgment, is not our place. We don’t know how willingly she is doing this. She may be terrified. When asked, she may or may not tell us. We also need to assure her of God’s love for her and not just threaten her with God’s wrath. I know many a woman who aborted because she felt God had abandoned her (because everyone else had).
True, but we’re talking about more than the truth about abortion. This woman has made a statement that implies she has preemptive forgiveness for the sin she is about to commit. If all you do is assure her of God’s love without telling her that she is erroneous in equating that with permission to abort, then you have enabled her in her sin and error. It’s not a threat of God’s wrath, God always wants to forgive, but by our defiance and without contrition we put ourselves in the position of rejecting the grace God offers. It’s also not a judgment of her soul – she may well repent and be forgiven – or of her subjective extenuating circumstances which, of course, God will account for in His perfect judgment of her culpability. But the scenario here is a woman who knows she is about to commit a sin by admitting she needs (and assumes she has) preemtive forgiveness. It’s imperative not to allow her, through your lack of correction, to persist in the notion that God’s mercy permits evil.
I wholly agree with you that she should NEVER be made to feel that God has abandoned her – that would be a blasphemous lie. I just think she needs more than “God loves you” which might only serve to reinforce the error in her thinking and lead her to continue on her decided path.
CT and Lori I love your answers! I heard a priest (on a pro life tape) say that he hears woman confess the sin of abortion over and over again because even though they know they are forgiven, they just can’t bring themselves to forgive themselves for what they have done. That is why it is also important to be there for the girls when they come out crying and to let them know of God’s forgiveness and love that is available to them through places such as Rachael’s Vineyard.
Lori,
Per usual, I love your answer. Although, I do add the following:
To presume upon God’s forgiveness when one is about to commit such a sin is a good way to ensure that God will NOT forgive her. Hell is filled with humans who did not avail themselves of God’s forgiveness.
In order to obtain that forgiveness, one must be genuinely sorry, genuinely contrite. That’s missing here in this individual. Actually, quite the opposite from contrition is present; it’s arrogant presumption. “A humbled contrite heart, you will not scorn,” says the psalmist. But in this woman’s case, it is a proud and haughty heart that says “God will forgive me,” as she then knowingly kills her child.
CT, you’re reading far more into my words than I actually said. I never said to tell her it would be OK to get an abortion, that God wouldn’t mind and had already forgiven her anyway. I’m Catholic and don’t believe that at all. I never said to tell her it wasn’t a sin or that it couldn’t have dire consequences for her soul. I know women who got abortions because they believed they had no other choice and begged God to forgive them while they were on the table. Those were very frightened women who were unable to trust that God would take care of them, because no one else had offered to. And I know sidewalk counselors who, when they aren’t able to stop a woman from going in, are right there to offer God’s love to them when they come out.
Alice – perhaps we are talking past each other a bit. I was only referring to the part where you said that the statements on here were judging the state of the woman’s soul and had somehow run afoul of “judge not lest ye be judged”. I just hadn’t seen any comments that I saw as a judgment on the woman as opposed to an identification of error, which is what I would say TO her. I don’t think it’s “about” her as you put it.
Other than that I agree with all that you have said!
God’s forgiveness won’t bring back the child.
I like that, Tony!
Forgiving oneself is found nowhere in the Bible. When I have doubted God’s forgiveness for my abortion it is because of my unbelief. I prayed for Him to heal that unbelief!! I asked for forgiveness and He so lovingly gave it. I need only accept it. He did what He said He would do! PAID IN FULL!
I would probably be tempted to say, “Your timing is a little off”.
A person really can’t be forgiven if they do not repent of what they have done in the past. It really makes no sense to ask forgiveness of a sin you are about to do. No sense at all.
Lori – great response!
“Do not tempt the Lord thy God!”
Thanks, everyone!
Gerard, I think the point about presumption is a good one, but maybe not the first one a woman needs to hear. I would certainly not say that she is necessarily arrogant or that she is “not contrite” because everyone is different and I can’t see into her heart.
I think that in these circumstances most women are often so frightened and distressed and are being told by everyone in their lives (not to mention the abortion facility) that they “have no other choice” that this is “by far the best choice” for them, that they are tempted into thinking they don’t have any other choice, and then slide from there into “I really have to do this, I have no other choice, so God will forgive me for doing it.” The first thing to let her know is that there is a way out, that she has other choices, that God will help her.
I hope something along these lines will be the best to divert her thinking, rather than the rather theologically complex notion of presumption. If I think that she is calm and rational enough to understand it, I would certainly add it but only after the first part.
Someone (maybe even on this site) has described the attitude of abortion-minded women as “blinkered thinking” or “tunnel vision.” Often they concentrating on not looking to the side, but only on what they think is the light at the end of the tunnel straight ahead. They want to reinforce that thinking by all means. Except that when they get there it is really darkness. That’s why I spoke of “diverting her thinking.” It seems almost impossible at times.
Thank God nothing is impossible with God!
I have met several women that were told by their pastors that an abortion was their best choice and that God will forgive them.
Also heard from a sidewalk counselor friend that a woman who was walking into a mill said her pastor’s wife had just had an abortion too.
Hard to be surprised by that.
Lori hit is just right! beautiful, simply beautiful!
And what Gerard added was very good!
We would try to get a why the woman was having an abortion, even though she knew it was wrong. Those women are prime for post-abortive problems. If we knew what the circumstances were, we could help.
As Sister said – “Circumstances change” and “we can help” work wonders. Praise God!
The other thing that I try tell these girls/women is that God gives us 9 months to get used to the idea and to grow to love that little one. This is just a bump in the road right now, and that things really do work out. once you make this decision (of abortion) you can not take it back. :( Please let us help you.
I am frankly puzzled by the many thoughtful responses, only because I truly see so little of God’s thoughts here.
God has not already forgiven anyone’s sins, until one repents and is baptized, they are still in their sin. it is the blood of the lamb that cleanses that which leads to death.
The Gospel is the free offer of total and complete forgiveness. It cannot be earned, but must be accepted and received.
But Paul wrote that some were saying, if this forgiveness is free (And where depravity is so great, yet grace is still the greater), then why can I not just keep on sinning after I’ve confessed? Paul told us that grace is no license for sin. A person, such as Carla’s foil, has not truly understood the concept, and the reprehensibility, of sin. God hates it!
He forgives because He loves. But He also judges and condemns those who prefer evil to good. This imagined woman, who is all too real, is still in her sins (I struggle to conceive of woman who is in Christ acting this way, but please, no “friendly testimonies”). She is presuming on God’s grace and patience, rather than examining her own heart to make certain she is in Christ. And such perverse thinking is decidedly not godly.
I agree that smacking her upside the head with all this is not how to go about confronting her. But a gentle reminder is called for. If she is indeed a believer who is struggling in deception, the Holy Spirit will call her out. If she is hard of heart, and does not know Christ, she will go and sin. We are to speak the truth in love, and pray that the spirit of the Lord does the Father’s will.
Carla, thank you for reminding folks that one does not, and cannot, forgive oneself for sinning against God.
Lauren said: “The fact that you say “God will forgive me” shows that you know that you are doing something wrong. I wouldn’t say “God will forgive me” for getting my wisdom teeth pulled because there’s nothing sinful about that action.
Your heart knows that this is wrong. Why are you doing it? Do you know that there are people who can help you?”
Did you take some time thinking on this one or did it just come to you naturally? Because to me, it seems like the absolute perfect thing to say in this situation.
This woman has not had good theological formation. One thought is that she may be trying to give the prayer warriors outside the abortion mill some comfort – the comfort in knowing that “her” God will forgive her, even as she is going in to have an abortion. Or – she could be taunting those outside of the abortion mill.
We need to listen, answer her with respect and listen again. Prayerfully, her own talking will convince her not to continue with her plans to abort.
If she really doesn’t want the abortion, but doesn’t believe that she has any choice, is truly sorry for what she feels she has to do, then she needs to be reminded that there are people out there who will help her get out of her situation. Yes, if she is truly sorry, and confesses her sin, seeking forgiveness, Christ paid the ultimate sacrifice for our sins, and she will be forgiven.
Like Lori said, we should ask why she would trust God’s forgiveness, but not trust His protection and His gifts to us. We have a saying in my family: “God will provide.” No matter how difficult things get, so long as you trust in God, He will help you through the toughest situations.
A child is a gift from God. The fact that whatever contraception might have been used did not work was not an accident. It was meant to be. God has a plan. God creates life. He is the only one who can create life. If He did not want someone to have a child, He would make it so that they did not. Therefore, when He does give a child to someone, that child is meant to be. Ending the life of that child is like throwing a gift back in the face of your best friend, except to a much greater degree.
If she she is saying this to cover her sin without acknowledging how wrong it is, doing this for a selfish reason, I would remind her of Amos, chapter 1:
13 Thus says the LORD: “For three crimes of the Ammonites, and for four, I will not revoke my word; Because they ripped open expectant mothers in Gilead, while extending their territory, 14 I will kindle a fire upon the wall of Rabbah, and it will devour her castles Amid clamor on the day of battle and stormwind in a time of tempest. 15 Their king shall go into captivity, he and his princes with him,” says the LORD.
Note that the Ammonites were from the Valley of Ben-Hinnom, or Ge-Hinnom, also called Gehenna. Gehenna is the Jewish equivalent of the Christian hell. Sheol is the Jewish equivalent of the Greek Hades, and the Christian Purgatory.
The sacrifices that Ammonites and Carthaginians used to give to their deity, Moloch/Molech, was that they would take a pregnant woman, cut out the child, cut the child open, bleed the child on the altar, and then put the child in the hands of the idol, which would then drop the child into the sacrificial fire. In Babylonia and Assyria he was called Malik, and in Palmyra was called Malak-bel. The Canaanites did the same sacrifice to Astarte/Ashteroth and Baal, the Greeks to Zeus, Athena, and Kronos, the Phoenicians and Egyptians to Tanit and Baal-Hammon/Cronus, and many other ancient cultures – the Chaldeans, Aztecs, Mayans, Romans, etc. – to their pagan deities.
There is also this passage from the Gospel of St. Matthew, chapter 10, which should be read to these women in a compassionate tone, not a condescending tone:
1 At that time the disciples approached Jesus and said, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”
2 He called a child over, placed it in their midst, 3 and said, “Amen, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoever receives one child such as this in My name receives Me.
6 “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of things that cause sin! Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come! 8 If your hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life maimed or crippled than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter into life with one eye than with two eyes to be thrown into fiery Gehenna.
10 “See that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that their angels in heaven always look upon the face of My heavenly Father.”
Every time the word “woe” is said in the Bible, it is a curse. Note that Jesus says it twice here.
I would ask her why she thinks that she would need forgiveness, which of course would mean that she is acknowledging that abortion is a sin. God would rather we did not sin. Therefore, I would ask her why she would rather sin and risk God’s wrath, and what she would need in order to not commit this sin. Then I would direct her to somewhere she could get the help she needs.
Then I would direct her to somewhere she could get the help she needs.
If I were there I would tell her of course the minute you are truly sorry for what you did God will forgive you because he loves you. But it is because of his love for you and for all life that he has better plans for you than for you to subject yourself and your unborn baby to this type of physical and emotional brutality. And I agree that offering her a positive alternative would be a good solution.
“Destruction of the embryo in the mother’s womb is violation of the right to live which God has bestowed upon nascent life. To raise the question whether we are here concerned already with a human being or not is merely to confuse the issue. The simple fact is that God certainly intended to create a human being and that this nascent human being has been deliberately deprived of his life. And that is nothing but murder.”
“A great many different motives may lead to an action of this kind, indeed cases where it is an act of despair, performed in circumstances of extreme human or economic destitution and misery, the guilt may often lie rather with the community than with the individual. Precisely in this connection money may conceal many a wanton deed, while the poor man’s reluctant lapse may far more easily be disclosed. All the considerations must no doubt have a quite decisive influence on our personal and pastoral attitude towards the person concerned, but they cannot in any way alter the fact of the murder.”
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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Dietrich Bonhoeffer was not a man who used words casually. If ever there was person who was deliberate, particularly in the words he wrote, it was Bonhoeffer. He was more concerned with not only being right, but being accurate. He was pursuing the TRUTH in order to know what was true.
Yor broken — I would like to read some of Bonhoeffer’s works. I was very impressed by the fact that he had friends in Harlem and was very moved by the plight of blacks in this country during the late twenties/early thirties. If you could recommend any of his books that might be accessible to a lasped Christian such as myself, I would appreciate it.
John 8:11 She answered, No one, Lord! And Jesus said, I do not condemn you either. Go on your way and from now on sin no more. AMP
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Notice her response: ”No one, LORD!” [There are no puncuation marks in the original Greek, but it would not be unreasonable to imagine her relieved, excited and emotional response. Especially if she had that false image in her mind of god as a crotchity, arthritic old man with cane just waiting for her to screw up so he could whack her with it.]
Notice what Jesus did not say: “I forgive you.”
Just because your accuser is gone and/or your sentence has been vacated or commuted does not mean you have been forgiven.
But after an encounter like this with the LORD and experiencing HIS love and compassion it would be difficult for me to believe she did not soon there after receive HIS forgiveness and be set free from the guilt and the shame which had been her constant companion for many years.
But then we have our lovely darlings who contend there is no guilt or shame associated with illicit sex and abortion, but they have the stones in their hands just in case one of the members of the feminista sisterhood should stray from the script and confess her sin and acknowledge her guilt and shame.
Just ask Abby Johnson.
ms philly,
I have only read bits and pieces of his works. Probably the most well known is ‘The Cost of Discipleship’.
I almost finished reading a biography, ‘Bonhoeffer:Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy, A Righteous Gentile vs. The Third Reich’ by Eric Metaxas. [542 pages] He references many of the writings of Bonhoeffer.
If you are one who has a mind who likes to plow deep, then Bonhoeffer will scratch you where it itches.
Team Marysia on this one. I went to Birthright training yesterday and was thrilled and relieved to be around pro-life people whose main priority was to help pregnant women choose life without any blaming, religious debates, or lecturing.
Many of the responses here are outrageous and offensive.
Quite a few have posted that we should love and show sympathy for the woman going into the abortuary, and that she will be forgiven, but we should try to understand why she would have her baby aborted, and consider what troubles she might be experiencing.
Try changing the characters.
How about doing that with a rapist, a kidnapper, a pedophile, an Islamic militant Jihadi, such as those thugs from Hammas, Hizbollah, al Qaeda, etc., who love killing for Allah, and believe they will be rewarded in the afterlife for their slaughter of others, and for their “martyrdom” if they are killed while carrying out their vicious murder.
“Oh, are you going to beat, rape, and murder that woman? Aw. I feel sorry for you. That is so sad that you must have some terrible feelings in your life that you feel you must resort to this. I will pray for you, and, after you are done, if you ask forgiveness, God will forgive you, and we will help you.”
The victims must be saying, “Thanks a lot for showing HIM so much love! How about me? I can use a little help here. I don’t want to be raped, tortured, and murdered, thank you very much!”
It is absurd, and there is too much la di da, sweetness and light, phony Christianity and even more phony Catholicism in these posts.
Tell the woman that abortion kills a living human being. Tell her that this is a scientific fact. Tell her that if she were aborted, or her mother and father were aborted, or her best friend were aborted, then their lives would have ended and they would not be here, alive now, and that is exactly what is happening if she has the medical hit man-assassin use her for his medical rape and abuse, which is what abortion is.
Abortion is the slaughter, the butchering of innocent, new living human beings.
Let her know that she is taking part in the violent murder of her own child, and ask her if she realizes that she is closing the door for herself to years of joy raising a beautiful, sweet, adorable child, her own offspring.
Let her know that she will find loving her child more satisfactory, more joyous, than having the baby slaughtered.
Let her know that there is nothing that giving birth to her baby will prevent her from achieving in her life, and that if the abortion pushers told her that having the baby is bad for her, or will interfere with her life, they are lying to her about a future they cannot foresee.
Tell her of all the mothers who are now multi-millionaires, CEOs, heads of hospitals, and so forth, who have wonderful children. Their children did not stop them.
Tell her how wonderful it is to raise a family, and that she will not experience this joy if she has the baby slaughtered, but she will make a medical butcher rich by doing so. Is that what she wants? To make abortionists and abortuaries wealthy at the expense of an innocent child?
Ask her how she has become among those who have turned away from the natural inclination of motherhood, to protect, love, and nurture her baby, and have been turned to a position of animosity and extreme prejudice against her baby, treating her baby as public enemy number one.
Ask her if that is fair and just. She cannot say it is and be telling the truth.
If she claims that, “Well, I’ve been told that it isn’t really alive, or a baby yet, or human yet,” ask her, if it isn’t alive, then why do you have to kill your baby? You can only kill something which is alive and developing and growing.”
Ask her, “If the father is human, and the mother is human, then how can you think your baby is not also human? What do you think baby is, a pine cone? A giraffe? An alien from outer space? A baseball? A spider? A spoon, a fork, or a salad bowl? If she is not a baby, then what is she, and how does she become a baby? Is there some kind of magic which takes place before he or she becomes a baby?”
If she claims that, “Well, they said that a baby doesn’t feel pain for several week, and therefore it is okay to kill “it,” tell her if it is okay to kill a living human being who cannot feel pain, then it is okay to kill people who have fainted, passed out, been knocked out via an accident or blow to the head, and it is okay to kill people who are drunk, on drugs, under anesthesia getting an operation, and people in comas who can’t feel or respond.”
To the question about not knowing when a human being’s life begins, remind her that the actual science which specializes in that field of the beginning of the human being’s life, Human Embryology, has defined the starting point, and that her baby is already alive and a human being, and will remain so until baby’s life ends, which she is intending to help bring about.
If she thinks that she can carry on and do whatever she wants because God will forgive her, then remind her that, heck, then people might as well just rape, steal, kidnap, torture, murder, pillage, run people down with their cars, do whatever they want, for God will forgive them and there is no Justice or Rule of Law when you can make it up as you go. If she is ever kidnapped, tortured, raped, and murdered, she can just remember what she thought when she got baby butchered by the abortionist, God will forgive, so its okay, and she can just keep her mouth shut and not complain about being a victims. After all, baby is a victim, but he or she does not get to complain.
Those who push the concept that a person can engage in any heinous crime because God will forgive them, are betraying a disrespect and lack of compassion for the victims of those who engage in those horrific acts, including those who engage or partake in abortion, rape, kidnapping, murder, torture, and other forms of aggression and violations of human dignity, human liberty, and human freedom. God’s forgiveness is not a license to licentiousness and violent aggression and slaughter of other human beings, nor is it a license and a Get-out-of-jail free card for vicious people.
How much time do you really have to talk to an abortion minded woman walking into a mill, William?
I like what Lauren said!! :)
yor broken
A lot of times people do not like to hear the second part of his instructions. Having lived a life similar to the woman at the well I can fully appreciate all of his instructions because real love always wants the best for people. Having had to the best of my ability attempted to follow those instructions I can clearly see the value of his admonition. Thank you for being salt and light on this site. God bless you and yours.
“To the question about not knowing when a human being’s life begins, remind her that the actual science which specializes in that field of the beginning of the human being’s life, Human Embryology, has defined the starting point, and that her baby is already alive and a human being”
Embryology courses deal with the biology of the developing fetus and do not characterize the fetus as a “human being” from the time of conception. Perhaps this is done at religious schools but certainly not in secular high schools and colleges. I friend of mine teaches advanced biology (includes embryology) at a public high school and I actually discussed this with her. She even showed me the texts which are standard for students across the country.
But here’s a question. What do you tell her if she says that her pastor has validated her choice and that he/she says that she is committing no wrong?
Mary Pat says:
April 16, 2011 at 7:37 pm
The other thing that I try tell these girls/women is that God gives us 9 months to get used to the idea and to grow to love that little one. This is just a bump in the road right now, and that things really do work out. once you make this decision (of abortion) you can not take it back. Please let us help you.
I love your response because it addresses her situation in such a practical way.
I would ask her if she was expecting her baby to be able to forgive her as well?
But here’s a question. What do you tell her if she says that her pastor has validated her choice and that he/she says that she is committing no wrong?
CC,
I’d ask her if she agrees with everything he/she says. If she answers “yes”, then I’d tell her that it is she, not her pastor, who will have to answer for herself to her Maker one day.
Mary Pat says:
–Maryisa, that is why there are people at the door of the killing mill to offer women help and to let her know that she is loved. your comment of “Instead of slamming the woman with all this religious judgmentality-” was uncalled for. I don’t believe that anyone on this page is doing that. I appreciate all their answers because I could use some wisdom in answering this question. I think that this is why the question is being asked in the first place.–
I don’t think my comment was uncalled for. A bunch of people here are leaping to the conclusion that women who have abortions are selfish, uncaring monsters who couldn’t possibly have any knowledge of the Divine.
Speaking as one who knew that in giving life to her unplanned baby, she would be forced to run the gauntlet of “prolife Christians” who would brand her a selfish babykiller if she had an abortion, but would not lift a finger to help her have let alone raise that child-indeed would throw the charges of “selfish fornicator” in her face for decades and decades. And that is exactly what happened.
My daughter is alive today no thanks to such “prolife Christians.” And how many other children are dead because girls and women feared to run that same gauntlet?
I cannot remain silence in the face of such abuse against women. In the name of God, no less! Well, I’m sure there’s a special place in hell for those who excoriate women who have abortions.
“She even showed me the texts which are standard for students across the country. ”
I would be very interested in seeing teh science texts which do not consider the beginning of human life to be the zygote stage.
Also – I would say that the pastor was seriously mistaken in giving her such bad advice – emotionally, physically and spiritually. Some pastors do not understand that they indeed lead others to sin – and that is very serious. That pastor, and others with great responsibility will have much to answer for.
This is why Fr. Frank Pavone and his staff go around the country speaking, teaching and reaching out in all manners to help people understand the pro-life position and the Teachings. So much is at stake – lives for sure and souls.
And Marysia and Mary Pat – it is so sad that no pro-life Christian offered help.
We help women regularly – in all kind of circumstances – food, furniture, diapers, clothes, transportation, payment of bills (some), and just plain friendship. We are now working with a couple who are being married next weekend. We bought her wedding dress, got it altered for her, bring the family food and good cheer. Basically we are there to listen, love and help.
We are looking forward to attending their wedding. We are happy that they are declaring their union to be permanent, and want to do the right thing.
I hope that people who need help try to reach out if people do not automatically step in. Going to a church, agency and other things help women connect to those who help in the community. If help doesn’t come to you, you go to it. It does work! ;)
I’ve actually thought of this before. My response to her would be:
“Before God can forgive us for any action we must first be truly sorry for the action. This means we must first have a sincere wish that we never committed the sin. If you hope for God’s forgiveness for this abortion, please know that the only way God will be able to forgive you is if you would want to turn back the clock to this very moment and make a choice other then the one you are determined to make. The only way God will be able to forgive you is if you will regret what you are about to do. Why do it then if you hope for God’s forgiveness now?? Why do it if you plan on wishing you never had?”
Yes, Myrtle, you are right. I forgot to add the fact that God loves all and will forgive those who are truly sorry. He loves all of us and wants us to be with Him. However, choosing to sin is choosing not to love and want to be with God.
In the explanation I posted yesterday, I would have said all of that with compassion, not prejudice.
Even then, being that I study theology, the fact that the woman actually said that God would forgive her would bring me to have to point out the theological and biblical proofs against what she said.
I would point out that in the passage I posted above, Jesus says, “And whoever receives one child such as this in My name receives Me,” (Matthew 10:5). He condemns those who hurt children, and blesses those who receive them.
Yes, I would be extremely compassionate in saying it. I would offer the help that I could to get her whatever she would need to let her keep the child. That child is a gift from God, a blessing, and He loves this woman and her unborn child. He would never want to see either of them hurt.
Abortion has hurt so many women and brought them further from God. Why would anyone who is seeking God’s forgiveness want that? Yes, many of them return later, but there are many who haven’t returned to His arms of love. Would she truly be sorry for what she did, or would she be excusing herself, lying to herself, just to make herself feel better? Women who use this excuse need to be confronted with the truth.
Like I said, God will provide. He has a plan. His plan is one of love. Killing a human being, rejecting a blessing from God, is not love. She needs to accept His love, not get the abortion.
“Your heart knows that this is wrong. Why are you doing it? Do you know that there are people who can help you?”
I just thought the best answer ought be be reprinted in bold.
Thanks Lauren.
Hebrews 10:26-27 “For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries.”
God will forgive you for many things, but in this case forgiveness need not be sought if only you give LIFE a chance. Why choose an action for which you believe forgiveness necessary when there are so many better options?
birthright.org
Abortion ends a human life. Life is a beautiful choice.
Joyfromillinios @ please don’t associate me with Marysia I have no idea where she is coming from? I know all the good that pro life advocates do. I am praying for Marysia that she comes to know the help and love that pro life people offer. I think God also asks us to forgive one another if we ever want to be forgiven…7 x 70.
This was just on Personhood USA fb page….
Sidewalk counselors outside of abortion clinics love women enough to try to keep them from making the biggest mistake of their lives.
Amen to that!
Larry, what is your position on abortion?
Mary Pat – because of how that 5:09 post was written, I was unsure of who wrote what, so I included both of you. No problem intended.
Larry – sounds like you are mad at pro-lifers – why? killing is not ok, especially the killing of the innocent. We don’t like the killing of the innocent, especially via abortion – no matter the religion that those youngsters would grow up following. The killing of the children in the womb is the invasion that we oppose, among others. Yes Larry – I also would like to know your position on abortion as well.
CC,
I tell her there are such things as false preachers as 2 Peter 2 and other places in the Bible warns us.
Somebody doesn’t know the distinction between the objective and subjective aspects of forgiveness provided at the cross.
Tell her she will NEVER go a single day without regretting this decision. God will NOT protect her from regret. He will forgive her, but will she ever forgive herself?
Moreover, what will she say to her murdered child when they are face to face?
She will just SAY she doesn’t regret it.
Forgiving oneself is not part of the equation. Once you confess and ask God for forgiveness and He has done what He said He would do which is forgive then not accepting that is unbelief. One need not continue to ask for what has already been freely given.
It is grief that a post abortive mom has to walk through. The last stage of grief over the death of a child is acceptance. Unfortunately we often forbid post abortive women the right to grieve the child that died that day.
I also had to ask forgiveness for ALL of the behavior leading up to my abortion. The drinking, the partying, the promiscuity.
When I get to heaven my daughter will already be there and will run to me and see me for who I am. Mommy. She will not condemn me. She will not ask Why? She has known only love. The book I’ll Hold You in Heaven has been of great comfort.
An unrepentant woman who has aborted risks never being with the Lord or her child.
Exactly Carla. Thank you for your candidness and your good heart.
I might say, “God will forgive you if He can. We must repent from our sin in order for God to be able to forgive us.”
I might ask her if she’d thought about the possibility of dying during the procedure. What if she didn’t have an opportunity to ask for forgiveness?
“Are you willing to risk your eternal destiny on the competence of the abortionist/baby killer?
I also like what Lori said about if she can trust God to forgive her, she should trust Him to take care of her and her child.
“Would you forgive your mother? Her mother before her?”
“It is written; do not put the Lord your God to the test.”
– Jesus Christ, Son of God
Hopefully, that would give her pause, to be supplemented with:
“The child you carry is one of God’s greatest gifts. Do you believe He would entrust such a blessing to one who could not possibly handle it?”
Anyone who believes in the forgiveness of God will, ultimately, also believe is His great love for us all. In that light, as was pointed out earlier, if one trusts in His mercy that overcomes our terrible offences, should one not trust moreso in His ability to provide for us?
“Look at the birds of the sky; they do not sow or reap, they gather nothing into barns, yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are not you more important that they?”
– Matthew 6:25
“Are not two five sparrows sold for two small coins? Yet not one of them has escaped the notice of God. […] Do not be afraid. you are worth more than many sparrows.”
– Luke 12:6
“Moreover, God is able to make every grace abundant for you, so that in all things, always having all you need, you may have an abundance for every good work.”
– 2 Corinthians 9:8
If she truly believes in what she says as she goes to enter, I would pray that her further reflections and any words given to me would make her initial direction unthinkable.
Such is my hope and my prayer.
Carla (and any others who must endure that), I in no way mean to condemn you or anyone else. If my words come across that way, then I apologize.
I used them because I expect they would require her to stop and think about it, even for just a second.
I’ve learned to never underestimate what He can do with that one second.
There is no chance of that, Maestro.
My life is hid with Christ on high.
When Jimmy jump double trouble Carter’s ‘Reign of Error’ began the inflation rate was 5.22
When Carter was shown the door four years later the inflation rate was 12.52 with high of 14.76.
When Ronald Reagan was inaugurated the inflation rate was 11.83, it’s highest during either of his 4 year terms. It dropped to a low of 1.10 and was 4.42 when he left office.
When b o was immaculated the inflation rate was .03 with a low of -2.10 and has since risen to 2.68, a swing of 4.78 in just and 2 1/4 years.
When Carter was sworn into office the unemployemt rate was 7.5 with a low of 5.6 and a high of 7.8 and it was 7.2 when the good baptist went into a field that perfectly suited to his abilities: A not for profit venture.
When Ronald Reagan took up residence in the White House the unemployment rate was 7.5 with a low of 5.3 and a high of 10.8 and it was 5.3 when Reagan left office.
When Moochelle obama moved into the white house with her two daughters and her husband the unemployment rate was 7.7 with a high of 10.10 and it is 8.8 after 2 1/4 years.
Misery index = inflation rate + unemployment rate
Misery Index by President
President Time Period Start End Change Average
Carter 1-77 to 12-80 12.72 19.72 7.00 16.26
Reagan 1-81 to 12-88 19.33 9.72 -9.61 12.19
b o 1-2009 to 3-2011 7.73 11.48 3.75 10.21
[As you can see by the numbers b o is on a pace to eclipse Jimmy Carters incompetence and replace him as the ’worst president in history’. Just wait til the hyper inflation and double digit interest rates kick in.]
==================================================================
A president can’t really do much to improve the economy, but by the very words he speaks he can inflict damage. The same thing may be said of a presidents action. His abilty to harm is much greater than his ability to help.
Both b o’s word and his policies are counter productive.
And yes we do think you are stupid, as in ‘foolish’.
As Forest Gump, a man known more his wisdom than his intellect said, “Stupid is as stupid does.”
And yes, b o, we too miss your anonymity
CC says: April 17, 2011 at 2:18 pm
“But here’s a question. What do you tell her if she says that her pastor has validated her choice and that he/she says that she is committing no wrong?”
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C-oC-ophonous,
Her pastor/pastoress will be held accountable for his/her being a stumbling block.
The old ‘devil made me do it’ defense probaby won’t gain much traction with the JUDGE.
I doubt it would hold much sway with a jury of her peers if she told them her pastor/pastoress gave her an indulgence to kill her baby.
You keep attempting to convince us that the human embryo/fetus is not a human being.
In effect what you are claiming is the human embryo/fetus is ‘sub human’.
It would be an understatement to characterize that attitude as ‘chauvinistic’.
It is a not so subtle ‘bigotry’ which places you in with a not so wholesome company of barbarians.
A God who can forgive can also deliver from dire straits. It’s not faith to ostensibly trust in God’s forgiveness but despair of his capacity — and eager willingness — to lead one through tough times. This is a perversion — not a presumptive expression — of faith. Sacrilegiously, the infant is sacrificed to save oneself from difficulties a self-sacrificing God apparently can’t be trusted for. Then the untrusted God is counted on to forgive the entrusted self.
A time of such intense moral confusion is no time to be exceeding faith in God with faith in self. The wolf howling at one’s door at such times is not the peril of a difficult life with a new child. The wolf howling at one’s door is the mortal peril of committing murder in an attempt to secure shalom that one refuses to trust God to provide in his time.
Heaven help anyone who succeeds in obtaining something like peace of mind through murder.
What a relief that in the end it is the judgment of Christ that will determine each of our fates and not the judgment of anyone here. “It does not concern me in the least that I be judged by you or any human tribunal; I do not even pass judgment on myself; I am not conscious of anything against me, but I do not thereby stand acquitted; the one who judges me is the Lord. Therefore, do not make any judgment before the appointed time, until the Lord comes, for he will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will manifest the motives of our hearts” (1 Cor. 4:3-5). If we fail to prevent someone from committing a grave sin, we ought to weep and pray for Christ to have mercy on them as we pray he will have mercy on us.
Very good comments all. Considering that this is Holy Week,let’s persevere in our prayer and devotions, and especially pray for this coming Good Friday – at our local PP they perform abortions that day. So sad, from all perspectives.
Let’s pray that some women change their minds – on that day in particular we remember Christ’s great sacrifice for us by His dying on the cross for mankind. Such a shame that on that day, and on all others, that Moms sacrifice their children via abortion.
Lord have mercy on us all.