Stanek weekend question: What is the pro-life response to illegal, unsafe abortions?
I read a quote in Al Jazeera on April 26 by Dr. Linda Valencia, Guatemala Program Officer of Planned Parenthood Federation of America:
While I was chief resident of this hospital in 2002, the night shift supervisor called me one night at 10 pm so that I could operate on a patient in septic shock. She pleaded with me not to let her die.
“Doctor,” she said, “I had an abortion, and I did it because I have seven kids at home, I don’t have a proper job. I wash clothes.”
When I examined her, I saw her legs had turned black. When we opened her up and started operating, there was this stench of corrosive liquid. They’d injected corrosive liquid through her vagina to make her abort. We finished operating and took her to intensive care. Hours later, she died.
She’s never left my thoughts. I can almost…yes, I still remember her face.
Discussion begins at 3:45 on the linked video.
Abortion is illegal in Guatemala, but pro-aborts are attempting the tried and true tactic of claiming abortion should be legalized to stop illegal, unsafe abortions.
At any rate, what is the compassionate pro-life response to this argument?
Another question: Do you find it curious that Al Jazeera, an Islamic publication, is promoting abortion in Central America, since Islam is pro-life? Comparatively speaking, wouldn’t you find it curious if CBN News appeared to promote abortion in Iran?
[HT: Abortioneers blog]
JLS note: According to the article, “Guatemala has the highest fertility rate among women and yet it remains the poorest country in the region where women can ill afford large families.” This is unadulterated spin. According to the CIY World Factbook, the fertility rate of Guatemala ranks 50th among 223 countries worldwide, at 3.27 children per woman, which certainly isn’t high. Three children do not constitute a “large family.” A replacement rate of 2.1 is needed simply to sustain an existing population.

I would respond honestly:
“Abortion happens whether it is illegal or legal, and the only thing that stops it is stopping the cause of it. No matter what you believe, we all should be infuriated when women and children die because of abortion. Forget the ‘legal’ or ‘illegal’ for a moment and acknowledge that abortion is what kills people. This woman’s death should outrage us and move us to action. We need to work together to improve the quality of life around the world in a culturally sensitive, effective manner. This isn’t a debate over religious values or conservatives and liberals or anything as stupid as politics. It’s a human problem, and the only way to fix it is to stop acting emotionally and start thinking rationally- and to start caring for our fellow human being above our titles as ‘pro-choice’ or ‘pro-life.'”
This woman’s death really upsets me. I can only feel for her family. Unfortunately, these things happen every day, but they shouldn’t, not in this day and age.
Yes, it is sad. I believe the biggest problem is fear. Fear of taking care of a new baby when you already have 7 children. Fear of what to do next when bringing a new life into the world. We have to help alleviate the fear in others. This lady sounded alone and desperate. We should all be able to count on family for love and support. It starts with family.
The meant that Guatemala has the highest birth rate of any south american country which if you look back at the world fact book is true. And while an average of 3 kids is not particularly high compared to the top of the list which is an average of 7, an average number of births per woman doesn’t tell you how large families tend to be there, since a bunch of families with 7+ children and a bunch of women without children can average out to 3 children per woman.
I totally agree with the commenter above in that the real solution is to prevent the need for abortions. Until there is no need the argument that safe legal abortions need to be available is a winner, especially if those arguing against this are not doing anything about preventing a need for abortions. Its been proven repeatedly that the best prevention of abortions is not outlawing abortions, but making realistic and accurate sex education and birth control methods (i.e. condoms and birth control pills) available for cheap or free.
Rape happens although it is illegal.
Murder happens although it is illegal.
Child abuse happens although it is illegal.
What is your point, Vannah? Overturning Roe V Wade would absolutely send the abortion rate spiraling downward!! I once read a survey of post abortive women. 72% stated they NEVER would have pursued abortion had it been illegal.
There is no need for abortion.
This mother needed help and support not abortion. Now there is a widower and 7 motherless children.
We have had realistic and accurate sex ed and enough pills and condoms to choke a horse, available AND cheap AND free, Travis and we have killed millions via abortion. If it had been “proven repeatedly” to prevent abortions wouldn’t there be no more abortions? How is that working???
What should prolifers do about illegal abortions?
If prolfiers truly care about both lives, the woman’s and the child’s, then we will educate about sex and reproduction, provide all methods of voluntary family planning, eradicate poverty and everything else that undermines parenthood.
My response is that evil always plays the mercy card and if a country wants to show true compassion than women should be offered the option of having their tubes tied as opposed to sacrificing their babies at the altar of greed and ignorance.
Gret response, Vannah.
I actually noticed this same quote here early in the morning a day or two ago, then it was gone. I don’t know why it was pulled, but I’m glad the decision was made to put it back, because we all need to face these facts and not back away from them. Yes, desperate poor women do these things. If we care for the women as well as the children, part of being pro-life is to do something about the poverty that drives them to abortion. We need to support aid to these countries that will help poor women with pregnancy and birth. We need to do something about the structural causes of poverty.
At the same time it’s clear that legalizing abortion is only going to make the problem worse. This is never the solution. It won’t lower the number of abortions, and it won’t necessarily make them safter. Not if reputable physicians are going to refuse to do them, and I take it they will, since Guatemala is still a largely Catholic/Christian country.
I wish there were clear answers to these questions. Let’s hope President Obama doesn’t start some campaign to change the abortion law as he has done in Kenya and other places.
The solution to unsafe abortions isn’t to abort children “safely” but to stop killing children. -Randy Alcorn
The harmful acts against the innocent will take place regardless of the law is a poor argument for having no law.
The law can guide and educate people to choose better alternatives.
Laws concerning abortion have significantly influenced whether women choose to have abortions.
We must not legalize procedures that kill the innocent just to make the killing process less hazardous.
The central horror of illegal abortion remains the central horror of legal abortion.
-Randy Alcorn
Travis said, “Until there is no need the argument that safe legal abortions need to be available is a winner”
Except if you happen to be the one LOSING your life. Not so much of a winner for the babies, is it?
Guttmacher (the research arm of PP) reports 54% of women aborting used birth control the month they became pregnant. Travis, you’ve bought one of the lies the abortion industry sells, this idea that they really want to reduce abortions. Abby Johnson tells it differently. So do others who worked in the industry. Listen to the trailer for Blood Money to understand the real story.
“Now there is a widower and 7 motherless children.”
Women die all the time in childbirth. Why do you care now?
Wow Megan..put on a coat….you’re really COLD.
If a woman knowingly and willfully kills her child I do not have sympathy or empathy for any ills she may suffer. She broke the law and murdered someone, I’m not going to buy into the lie that we should sacrifice more victims to protect the perpetrators…BUT, I will have compassion for her if she repents.
If a woman in desperation is taken advantage of by an underhanded ‘doctor’ (midwife, nurse, emt, boyfriend, etc) who promises a safe, easy, and harmless fix to her problem she has my pity (and perhaps my sympathy) for any ills that befall her. BUT the butcher who cohersed, forced, or lied to her and injuried her/killed her baby has nothing but my righteous wrath, as the Pslamist said “Oh that you would slay the wicked, O God, depart from me, therefor, you bloodthirsty me…I hate them with a perfect hatred, I count them mine enemies” how fitting that is in the same Pslam that talks about how we are “fearfully and wonderfully made” and we are known as distinct people even while we are “made in secret”!
A death from illegal abortion is never a good excuse to change the law, but who is responsible for the break in the law and the subsequent death varries. Traditionally most illegal abortion charges were laid at the doers doorstep, not as the mothers, for they far more frequently fall into the 2nd category I spoke of rather than the 1st.
Let’s all agree, together, that we should crack down on unsafe abortionists whether they are operating legally or not.
Let’s make sure unsafe abortions don’t occur by making sure that abortions don’t occur.
Let’s also be clear that there is NEVER a reason to abort a child due to poverty in the US. We have an excellent safety net for children. You can get free health care if you are pregnant, and anyone in need can get free food for themselves and their children. Children can get free medical insurance. If you really couldn’t make it with another child–and I think it’s more likely that they just are afraid of how their lifestyle would change–adoption allows you to have others carry the cost of having and raising the child, while allowing you a great deal of contact, if you choose.
No, that’s not true everywhere. But what real problems will it address to allow more women to kill their children more easily? Aren’t there better causes–like making sure children who have been born will get enough to eat? Like good prenatal care? And if abortions there are so awful, what makes you think that legal abortions will be better? Before abortion was legalized in the US, they were performed in doctor’s offices or by midwives. After the legalization, those same doctors would do abortions, but openly. Abortions will have the same safety before and after–but legalizing them will increase them.
Megan, I think we all agree that it is important to make childbirth as safe as possible for both mother and child. Or at least I know those in the pro-life camp do. We don’t want moms to die, or fetuses, or infants.
One way to make childbirth safer is to outlaw abortion. Another is to have pro-life doctors.
If one is going to argue that childbirth is less safe than abortion, should all childbirth be banned and every child be aborted? And if childbirth is safer than abortion–and you can bet that in countries where childbirth is unsafe, abortion is as well (unsterilized instruments, unscrupulous doctors, quotas to meet, lack of medical training or skill–many factors could contribute)–does that mean abortion should be banned?
Carla – correct me if I’m wrong, but overturning RvWade wouldn’t do anything – states would simply be able to pass bans, but it would be a state by state thing – so for instance, Utah might have it banned, but then there could/would be centers popping up at state lines for those who want to travel to another state. Correct?
How about promoting love for every born member of the human race? How about accepting the newest member of your family whether you think you can feed him or not, and then doing your damndest to help him thrive. If one has 7 children, what is one more? There is meaning in suffering and hard work, there is nothing in comfort and complacency. Promoting the empty materialistic western ideal of life to these people is just wrong.
I do find it odd that Al Jazeera has taken an interest in subtly promoting abortion in this case. For all you pro-lifers who frequent marches/rallys etc. I am interested in what the islamic presence is like at these events. From my vantage point they seem strangely silent.
“If one has 7 children, what is one more?”
I guess you’ll have to ask the mother who was willing to have corrosive liquid injected in her uterus so as to not have one more.
“There is meaning in suffering and hard work, there is nothing in comfort and complacency. Promoting the empty materialistic wetsern ideal of life to these people is just wrong.”
Time to get rid of your washing machines and microwaves, ya’ll. And dump your computers while you’re at it.
Abortion is legal now and you have women who die from botched, unsanitary abortions done by hacks. Pro-choice people are so eager to have abortion completely unregulated that we still have this problem NOW. And they prey mostly on the poor where they know they can get away with it. It’s very sad that some women will always resort to this, but we can’t let a million children a year die. If abortion is ever illegal again in this country (in some or all states), we’ll have to doubly step up efforts to educate desperate women there are a lot better alternatives to submitting to some butcher.
Travis, a lot of desperately poor people steal b/c it seems necessary in a given situation. Should we allow all theft until there’s no need for it?
Whoever injected corrosive liquid into this woman needs to be charged with two couts of murder, one for the baby she carried, and last, but by no means least, one count of murder for the death of the woman herself. Make an example of this creep, so that like minded people won’t think of doing this to anyone else.
Also, why are the Abortioneers teaming up with Al Jezeera? It seems an odd, but a very interesting and telling, partnership.
Here are a few thoughts in no special order… after watching the video.
Better communication between husband and wife is needed so they can limit their intimacy to non-fertile times.
This video is disturbing because women are told they can do certain things without their husbands knowing.
What is the divorce rate in Guatemala compared to countries that have strong public policy on family planning? I’d expect it to be lower in Guatemala. What does that tell us?
Whatever needs to be done to make better lives for these families must make husband and wife partners, not adversaries, or their social system is going to fall apart as it is in the Western countries.
When abortion is legitimized, it opens the door for hiding the abuse of women and children.
The disregard for the Catholic culture in Guatemala is disturbing. As in the U.S., it is the doctors and nurses who are going to be responsible for the spreading of the abortion holocaust there. They should be ashamed of their boldness and pride – as if they know better than God.
Lord, please help the people of Guatemala keep true to their Catholic faith, and find ways to help themselves in accordance with your will.
Cecilia,
I don’t think the Abortioneers are in cahoots with Al J.
They merely posted this Al J-produced documentary since it squares with their abortion arguments.
That’s how I interpreted it, anyway.
Janet,
A very important factor in all this is the prevalence of “machismo” in hispanic cultures.
It’s the norm, not the exception.
This is one producer’s viewpoint. Now I’d like to see a prolife documentary on the same topic in the same country.
Amen Carla! April 30th 5:18 pm
Vannah, thats a bunch of BS.
It’s sad when mothers are injured or die killing their children.
Humans are prone to self-destructive behavior.
It’s our sin nature.
Thank God for His Mercy and Grace.
Those who have been redeemed by His Blood have been delivered from the power of sin in their lives.
Praise His Holy Name!
Good heavens. Planned Parenthood must’ve hired an entire staff to monitor Jill’s blog. I’ll take that as a sign that Jill’s influence is considered a threat. A good omen.
What about men? If a man and his wife had seven children and they’re living in poverty, is it totally unreasonable for him to man-up and keep his pants zipped? Not in the “World According to Planned Parenthood”. In PP’s world, the first priority is unrestricted sexual gratification and all the consequences (like killing babies, aiding and abetting rapists, etc.) are just collateral damage. Sexual gratification has been the primary mission of PP since the days of Margaret Sanger.
There are life-giving means of limiting family size that respect and bolster human dignity (especially feminine dignity). Life-giving means that strengthen marriages, encourage personal responsibility and build solid societies. NONE of these means include contraception or abortion. Contraception and abortion are capitulations to sexual selfishness, mostly on the part of men. Contraception and abortion KILL. They are not the answer.
Travis, your statements are absolutely, irrefutably, undeniably, verifiably wrong. We need only look the statistics from the United States in the last 40 years to see that embracing contraception has led to an abortion explosion. Do some research.
Muslims are pro-life towards their own. They are not pro-life towards others. Meaning, they don’t care if unborn infidels die in abortion. As long as unborn muslims aren’t dying they’re good. This I know from a muslim acquaintance who broke it down for me.
The answer is that women should be educated about their bodies so they can space their children.
Education has the biggest effect on the number of children a woman will bear.
It is also the best way to escape poverty.
As for Muslims, I truly wouldn’t be surprised if Muslims work very hard to promote abortion in the Western world. They now know that they are very close to becoming the dominant population in many European countries and that means they have the power to make social changes such as implementing Sharia law and so forth.
Muslims are NOT our allies. They are our enemies.
Abortion as an answer to poverty is the most shameful argument that any government organization can make especially in first world countries like this one!!
can any body see the difference in poverty levels between Guatemalan poor and American poor? or any other first world country? poverty is generated by government while wealthy is generated by the people of any nation!! so promotion abortion is a nation suicide!! of curse wealthy nations can afford the importation of labor ready to join the work force though immigration legal or illegal instead of waiting for its own citizens to grow get educated and then join the work force. this is the hypocrisy of this and any develop country on the issue of abortion.
education is what people need to find their own answer to their own problems, not to kill their children!!
@Carla, with the cheap/free sex ed and birth control i was referring to in Guatemala and most of south and central america, where it is most certainly NOT cheap and easily accessibly.
If were going to look at the US, *accurate* and *realistic* are the key components of effective sex education. Quite a bit of sex ed in America boils down to dont do it till marriage (i.e. abstinence only). This is not effective. Also an unfortunate amount of sex ed is not accurate (i.e. myths like “you might as well not use a condom because they fail 50% of the time anyways”)
also @Carla, YES making abortion illegal would send abortion rates spiraling downward, but we should be showing compassion for all, this includes the mothers in the complicated situation of deciding what to do, for some the consequences of keeping the child are quite high, adoptions like in Juno are rather rare, and the foster care system is not always the best it can be (Ive known a couple really great foster parents, I also know that by the time kids get out of the foster care system its pretty common for them to have had their identities stolen at least once with no assistance available to fix the credit/debt problems that leaves…)
so yes it would lower the abortion rate, but it would also lead to far more women dying from unsafe abortions. Think about the other 28% of your statistic, what happens to them?
The best solution is to get as close as we can to elimination the need to make that decision. This is why I get so angry with people who claim to be anti-abortion and yet advocate abstinence only education.
” This is why I get so angry with people who claim to be anti-abortion and yet advocate abstinence only education.”
Travis all the stats show that it’s not a lack of knowledge about birth control or a lack of access to it, but rather people who don’t use it consistently (and know they dont) or the built in failure rates with birth control. Over 50% of people getting abortions were using birth control in the month they got pregnant (according to PP).
What if a woman knows about birth control, uses it perfectly, and gets pregnant? Would you still consider this a situation in which abortion is “needed”? Is there any situation in which people should have to accept responsibility for the fact that sex can lead to pregnancy or is abortion always “needed” so long as that pregnancy wasn’t intended?
Sex leads to children. We delude ourselves with this concept of protection and use it to relieve ourselves of responsibility when the protection fails or we forget to use it. “We didn’t want a pregnancy!!! We were just having sex. Gosh, this is so harsh.” Honestly, people are free to have sex out the wazoo, protected or unprotected, under whatever delusion feels best to them. But, sorry, a civilized society has to draw the line somewhere and I’d say allowing people to perpetuate the delusion of consequence free sex by killing unwanted children is a mighty good place to start.
HI Travis,
Since I am a post abortive woman who was coerced into an abortion I did not want I have MUCHO compassion for any woman in a situation where she feels like she has no choice but to abort. Not that you knew that about me. Now you do.
I was comparing the US track record of free pills and condoms and comprehensive sex ed.(brought to you by PP) Would you consider our situation a success? OR do we need MORE pills, MORE condoms, MORE sex ed? I believe that is the definition of insanity. You are sadly misinformed that more of the same will somehow make things better. You are also sadly misinformed that by foisting abortion on other countries we will somehow be “helping” them. We kill their children and harm their women for profit. We export abortion.
Women die from “safe, legal” abortions in this country. What of them? Are they just the unfortunate casualties of “reproductive justice?”
I have a really hard time with people that come to this blog and tell us all about the BEST way to eliminate the “need” for abortion.
Someday abortion will be illegal. AND unthinkable.
@ Travis
You said: I also know that by the time kids get out of the foster care system its pretty common for them to have had their identities stolen at least once . . .
Statements like that require a source. The occurrence of such a phenomenon, if it proves true, does not mean foster care is a poor subtitute for abortion. Credit problems should not be a cause for murder, nor suicide.
AMEN MAURICIO!!!
HI ExGop,
I wouldn’t say overturning Roe V wade would do nothing. It would get me on a plane to the Supreme Court steps to celebrate with my Silent No More sisters. :) Passing Personhood legislation would be key as well.
Another thing- every city and town and village in the US should have a maternity home and Life Care Center. Period. There has to be SOMEWHERE women can go when abortion becomes illegal. Adoption should be easier, cheaper etc. The law would certainly change things and the priority today would be the priority in the future, HELP WOMEN! Women do not “need” abortion.
The state we live in already has an abortion ban on the books. As do several others.
Shouldn’t the states have decided back in 1973??
Sorry. I hate to answer your question with a question but I will have to do a little more research on just what it would look like.
Maybe some of my lawyer friends could hop on this thread and help me out. :)
@ Travis
Also, I encourage you to read this MSNBC article on myths about adoption.
From Megan,
“Now there is a widower and 7 motherless children.”
Women die all the time in childbirth. Why do you care now?
Good morning, sunshine!! I haven’t seen you around these parts for awhile! How are you?
Please prove that I didn’t care then and I don’t care now or that I never did care. Thanks.
What I have observed is that whenever there is a story on this blog of someone dying of ”safe, legal” abortion there is nary a peep from proaborts. When a woman is beaten and her child killed because she refused to abort there is again that silence from proaborts. When Gosnell did his snip, snip, snip there was again no sympathy nor empathy for those precious babies nor for the women he butchered and killed. The silence from your side is quite deafening and also very telling. As though acting like you care might mean you are losing some of your rock solid support for killing babies and harming women.
Hmmm. Just my informal observation.
Shall we continue to act like we are 8 years old(I know you are but what am I?!)or did you want to have a real discussion?
I should have clarified my above post.
When considering the subject of sin, there’s always an element of deception with it. We often don’t fully realize the consequences of our actions in the moment of decision.
In the case of abortion, most Moms believe they are removing a blob of tissue before it becomes their child.
Again, thank God for His Compassion, Mercy and Grace.
For all of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.
God’s Love is so great!
He paid the price for our sin.
As far as He’s concerned, our old man, the one that committed the sin, is dead and buried with Him. We are washed completely and totally clean by His Blood. As far as the east is from the west, he removes our transgressions from us. He casts them into the Sea of Forgetfulness.
And just like He has risen from the dead, He makes us New Creations in Him. We are His children, His beloved, alive unto our Father God!
God is passing out free measures of His Love Joy and Peace today in church.
Go get you some!
I think a big part of the problem in Guatemala and many other impoverished places in the world is a strict, legalistic interpretation of and adherence to whatever the local majority religion is. In this case, of course, it’s Roman Catholicism. Catholicism, in Guatemala, is practiced in a primitive, isolated form that hasn’t had the opportunity to evolve in the way that it has in first-world countries that practice it. This is perpetuated and reinforced by local power brokers affiliated with both the church and the state who use it to bolster their own authority. What Guatemala needs is to evolve to a sophisticated Catholicism and away from the doctrinaire or “naive” form that is currently practiced. Sophisticated Catholicism is distinct in two important ways: firstly, it recognizes a separation between ecclesiastical and political authority, which is a necessary foundation for any developing country to begin and successfully implement an internal shift to democratic, liberal norms for social and government institutions. Secondly, it rejects the pedantic, legalistic and absolute adherence to the minutiae of religious doctrine and instead looks to broader, more applicable cultural values: social justice, a respect for human wellbeing, the equitable distribution of resources, sexuality equality, and so on.
Why is it always about religion with you, Joan??? Always shoving it down my throat.
But I do so love the word pendantic. Oh and minutiae.
And if you could tie in abortion to your comment that’d be great.
Its been proven repeatedly that the best prevention of abortions is not outlawing abortions, but making realistic and accurate sex education and birth control methods (i.e. condoms and birth control pills) available for cheap or free.
@Susan – Muslims are NOT our allies. They are our enemies.
This may be true of some Muslims, but please, let’s not demonize a whole group of people.
Travis, I appreciate your concern, but can you explain the fact that in NYC contraception is cheap and readily available, yet it still has the highest abortion rate in the country? Same with liberal cities such as Los Angeles and San Francisco — birth control is readily available, but abortion rates are quite high,.
@ Joan, so what you’re saying is if someone actually believes their religion they are a detriment to society? That for society to advance you must only ‘sort of’ believe one’s religion? So it’s good for people to be raging hypocrits and morally/functionally inconsistant? Makes perfect sense…tell me, do you only sort of believe that as well? Or is that the belief that it’s okay to actually believe in?
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not Catholic, I’m a Biblical Christian and would/have actively done my best (and occassionally succeeded) to save people out of the very unbiblical Catholic faith. But Catholic, Buddhist, Shinto, Wiccan, Christian, Muslim (get the picture) people acting inconsistantly with there faith is not an admirable characteristic.
There is no such thing as a safe abortion. Making abortion illegal is the safest thing you can do for women. Abortions should be done at hospitals not abortion mills.
On the ‘safe’ aspect there is no such thing as a safe abortion. Making abortion illegal is the safest thing you can do for women. Abortions should be done at hospitals not abortion mills and only for severe risk of health to the mother. But there should be no exception other than as a life-saving surgery to save the mother’s life. The goal should never be to kill the child. On the legal aspect I would grant women a rape exception to abort her child if she gets raped. I believe all people have an inalienable right of self-determination and a women who is raped did not have that opportunity. I think any personhood amendment would need to include a ‘rape’ exception. I also think the window for making that choice should be very small and within a week of the rape. I think medically we should help these rape victims with the consequences of the rape in any way possible. They have had their bodies violated and I see this at least as a distinction worthy of debate.
Mauricio says:
“…poverty is generated by government while wealth is generated by the people of any nation.”
Congratulations, my friend, you have stated in just 15 words the most fundamental economic truth of the ages. There are brilliant economists that cannot grasp this most basic of maxims, they have written volumes upon volumes about how big government alone is the answer to all of our economic problems. But their solutions never work.
Joan says:
Catholicism, in Guatemala, is practiced in a primitive, isolated form that hasn’t had the opportunity to evolve in the way that it has in first-world countries that practice it.
Do you mean like most of the enlightened countries in Europe, where now less than 5% of Catholics go to church on a regular basis, where the population is not growing fast enough to reproduce itself? You sound just like the nuns who were “liberated” by modernist theologians in the 1960’s—never satisfied with the status quo in anything—always agitating to reduce Catholicism to something it isn’t. Everything seems to keep coming back to the Catholic Church in one way or another—almost like an obsession.
I laugh at the use of the word “evolve”. Now that we are in the age of enlightenment, one where we have “evolved” to justify the killing of 50 million of our young before they were born, one wonders what other delights you progressives have in store for us. Perhaps by following the slippery slope we can glimpse the future: euthanasia for the old, the severely handicapped, and the mentally unfit, forced sterilizations and abortions for the idiots and racially inferior. Here we are—back to Hitler and Sanger. It seems we already have evolved, or I should say: “devolved”.
Humm…I was just thinking…
In the interview Dr. Linda Valencia tells about an experience she had with a woman who died a horrible death as a result of an illegal abortion. She describes how it haunted her… My question to her is this: What was done to find the criminal abortionist in this case? The woman lived for a while and could have given detailed testimony of where she had the abortion and who was involved. Was this information gathered? Was there a police investigation? This woman died for heavens sake! Somebody must have done something to find the abortionist who did it and hold him/her responsible for her death.
Is the Program Officer of Planned Parenthood in Guatemala so pro-abortion that she wasn’t moved to pursue prosecution of even this abortionist?
“save people out of the very unbiblical Catholic faith”
Jespren, specifically which chapters and sections of the Catholic faith (our Catechism) is non-biblical. Perhaps you caould provide me with the ones you are thinking of when you make your perjurous accusation. Or perhaps not. I won’t hold my breath.
‘crickets’
truthseeker,
How does a child differ biologically when they are conceived in rape?
Abortion does not heal rape.
But I am a no exceptions prolifer.
How does being forced to have a baby after a rape heal the trauma of rape?
Hi Megs,
Good Golly Miss Molly. Like we haven’t traveled down this road before………..
Having a baby after rape doesn’t heal the trauma of rape. I didn’t say it did.
Counseling after rape heals the trauma of rape.
Nobody “forces” women to have babies. A child grows without force.
Carla, a child conceived through rape is no biologically different. The reason for the exception is based on a lack of consent to intercourse in the first place.
SO how about we go after the perp of the rape and NOT sentence an innocent child to death?
Jerry
Your right devolved is the correct term. Didn’t go to church today but got to hear a wonderful sermon anyway!
I would have no problem with that outcome Carla.
carder says:
April 30, 2011 at 8:55 pm
Janet,
A very important factor in all this is the prevalence of “machismo” in hispanic cultures.
It’s the norm, not the exception.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Hola carder,
That makes a lot of sense. Are you suggesting that men will be reluctant in educating themselves about NFP/sympto-thermal methods of family planning? If so, it might be helpful for these macho men to have male instructors….
SO how about we go after the perp of the rape and NOT sentence an innocent child to death?
I don’t think we can make exceptions for rape and incest for the sake of the woman’s dignity without undermining the dignity of the unborn human person. It’s a situation that is rare, that I would never want to be in.
I wonder if PP keeps statistics on how many rapists have been caught on account of their own reporting to law enforcement. By state? Do they keep records of young girls, porn actresses and prostitutes, and the guys who bring them in for abortions? Where are the stats?
I know Megan and others will smirk and act like my stories are nonsense but I am going to put in my two cents. My husband had a friend who was date raped. She got pregnant. She had her daughter and even decided to raise her. Now the mom has a wonderful, supportive family and quite a few brothers and sisters. They rallied around her and today that girl is about 9 years old. And very much loved and wanted even though her father was a scumbag and her mother was a victim. This mother has healed (as best you ever can) from the trauma of the rape because she poured herself into her role of mother. She felt selfless and worthy and raising that child has helped ease her pain.
I have a friend who was raped. She also got pregnant. She aborted. Almost 10 years later she has been through counseling multiple times which hasn’t helped, has mental health issues and an eating disorder. She has not healed AT ALL from the trauma of the rape and still relives it. But on top of that she also deals with guilt over her abortion. Especially since she is now married and can’t seem to get pregnant.
Having a baby does not remove the trauma of rape. But having an abortion can often times make it worse. And the bottom line is we do not execute children for the crimes of their fathers.
As a survivor of two rapes, I have found that the only thing that removed the trauma of rape for me was forgiving those who raped me. This took over 15 years.
Had I became pregnant during either rape and then aborted, I would have been additionally traumatized and it would have probably taken another 15 years to heal because I would then have to forgive myself.
Praxedes,
I am so sorry. Words escape me…
Young Christian Woman–Yes, we do have an excellent safety net in the US for children. And we need to do everything we can to make sure that remains in place.
Praxedes–((((hugs))))) for you.
Truthseeker: “On the legal aspect I would grant women a rape exception to abort her child if she gets raped.”
I am really surprised to hear you say this. Why does a child conceived in rape not have the right to life? Why is it more okay to kill a child at a younger age? What if the woman is held for more than a week after the rape–can she get an abortion when she is freed/escapes? How would you prevent women from claiming rape to get an abortion? Most women don’t even know they’re pregnant a week in, and after a rape so many go into denial about the possibility. Your time-limit sounds unworkable, and your contention that the blastocyst does not have a right to life is offensive.
Jespren: I am not a Catholic, but the more I learn about what Catholics really believe (rather than the talking points many Protestants or Protestant groups have about what Catholics believe), the more I discover that while their interpretations of the Scriptures often vary, there is nothing I would outright say is unBiblical. I am sure that if you actually mention some of these unBiblical beliefs, you will be pleasantly surprised that Catholics are not quite the dangerous heathens you are thinking. Worth noting also that sometimes we use the same words to mean different things.
@ Truthseeker and Young Christian Woman: sorry, for some reason I wasn’t get the updates on this post, got them in a big block this morning. This may be a conversation best carried out elsewhere. But I will adress it briefly and if you would like to continue i’d be happy to do so, I am easily contact-able if you click on my link.
Young Christian Woman: while I can attest that many people who call themselves Catholic have widely varying beliefs, and even very un-Catholic beliefs (I have known more than one ‘Wiccan-Catholic’ for example), I only ever use the pronoucements of Rome/the Pope, the Catholic catechism, or their published prayers when I am refering to extra/unbiblical teachings. A good place to start would be a book titled ‘Conversations with Catholics’ and is availible in most Christian bookstore.
Truthseeker: The co-redeptive aspect of Mary/salvation through Mary, that Mary was without the stain of original sin, the worship of saints/Mary, calling Mary ‘Queen of Heaven’, the repetition of prayers, the transubstanation of the host, venial/mortal sin, purgetory, monetary redeption (the famous quote is “the moment the coin in the coffer rings the moment the soul from purgetory springs”), the priesthood being channels to God, requiring sacrements of the Church for continued salvation, losing your salvation, priest-issued pentance, forgiveness of sin through priests, infallibility of the Pope, I could go on. Again, if you (or anyone else) would like an indepth conversation please feel free to contact me away from this board.
Jespren, I am not so ill-informed as you think. I’ve discussed most of these issues with Catholics. I can come up with a similarly biased-looking list for what protestants believe. (God had a one-night stand with Mary. One can sin with impunity because salvation is assured. Any interpretation of the Bible is valid. One’s own conscience is the only standard of right and wrong. Anyone of any beliefs can claim to be of their religion without being wrong. No clear statements on social issues. Anti-science. Religious practices based on feeling rather than truth. No respect for marriage)
No doubt you think that there are some valid criticisms, some outright lies, some half-truths, and some misunderstandings on that list.
I think the same is true of your list. I am not saying I agree with everything in Catholicism; I am saying there are mischaracterizations and misunderstandings if not lies on your list.
@ Young Christian Woman, none of those things are Biblical teachings, and any church teaching them is likewise teaching unbiblical teachings and should repent and return to the Bible, stop laying claim to ‘Christian’ or it’s followers should be encouraged to leave. I believe the Bible, which is what ‘Christian’ means. Those things I listed are not lies or misinterpretations/misunderstandings, they are Canon beliefs of the official Roman Catholic Church. It is what the Catholic church teaches and believes, regardless of wether any one follower puts their own ‘spin’ or doesn’t believe part(s) of it. If you would like to go more indepth, pls contact me away from board as asked.
What church thinks God had a one night stand with Mary? “Young Christian Woman” you obviously made that one up! That is off the wall absurd.
Having been raised both Baptist and Methodist, I have never heard any church claim that God had a one night stand with Mary. Ever. And believe me, I’ve been to quite a few churches.
An answer to the question of illegal “unsafe” abortions (sorry so long):
Dr Bernard Nathanson was one of the original leaders of the American Pro-choice movement. He co-founded NARAL, National Abortion Rights Action League, used to be an abortionist, and presided over 60,000 abortions.
He has admitted that he and others in the pro-choice movement intentionally lied about the numbers of women who died from illegal abortions. Here is what he has said:
“How many deaths were we talking about when abortion was illegal? In N.A.R.A.L. we generally emphasized the drama of the individual case, not the mass statistics, but when we spoke of the latter it was always “5,000 to 10,000 deaths a year.” I confess that I knew the figures were totally false, and I suppose the others did too if they stopped to think of it. But in the “morality” of the revolution, it was a useful figure, widely accepted, so why go out of our way to correct it with honest statistics. The overriding concern was to get the laws eliminated, and anything within reason which had to be done was permissible.” Bernard Nathanson, M.D., Aborting America (New York: Doubleday, 1979), 193
Here are the actual US statistics according to the US Bureau of Vital Statistics. The year before abortion became legal in all 50 states in 1972, there were 39 women that died from illegal abortions. In 1973, after RVW legalized abortion in all 50 states, 25 women died from LEGAL abortion.
In the July 1960 edition of The American Journal of Public Health, there was an article by Dr. Mary Calderone, founder of SIECUS and medical director of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America. She stated:
“90% of illegal abortions are being done by physicians. Call them what you will, abortionists or anything else, they are still physicians, trained as such; . . . They must do a pretty good job if the death rate is as low as it is . . . Abortion, whether therapeutic or illegal, is in the main no longer dangerous, because it is being done well by physicians.”
In his book Babies by Choice or by Chance, published in 1959, Planned Parenthood’s own Alan Guttmacher wrote, “The technique of the well-accredited criminal abortionist is usually good. They have to be good to stay in business, since otherwise they would be extremely vulnerable to police action.”
For every horror story of a woman who died of an illegal abortion, there is an equally horrific story of a woman who died from a LEGAL abortion.
Here’s the other thing. Pro-choicers say that if we make abortion illegal, women will do it anyway and they will die. But they are making an assumption here. They are assuming that the unborn are not fully human and so the only person we need to be concerned with is the mother. If the unborn are not fully human, then pro-choicers are right.
But if the unborn are fully human, this pro-choice argument is the same as saying that because people die or are harmed while stealing cars, that we should legalize car theft so that all these thieves won’t have to die in the process of stealing cars. After all, they’re going to do it anyway, right?
Why is it that you never hear pro-choicers even mentioning all the women who have died from LEGAL abortions, like Marla Cardemone? They talk and grieve over the women who died in illegal abortions, but they ignore all the women who died from legal abortions. That seems very hypocritical to me.
Pro-lifers not pro-choicers are the ones who try to pass legislation to regulate abortion clinics so that they will be safer for woman. And guess who fights all of these regulations tooth and nail? Planned Parenthood and other pro-choice groups. When women or their families sue abortionists who mutilated or killed them in a legal abortion, who is in court defending the abortionists? The pro-choice groups! They say they are so concerned for women, but where is their concern for the ones who have died since 1973?
And what about all the women who suffer physical complications after their abortions? Was legal abortion SAFE for them?
Preach it, Kris!!! :)
Love your post!!
Jespren’s list had some things on it that mischaracterized Catholic beliefs. For instance, while Catholics hold Mary in great respect, they do not worship her in the same way they worship Jesus.
They do teach that she had a special relationship to God and remained specially bound to Him all her life. Evangelicals, on the other hand, tend to believe that Mary was not a perpetual virgin and did not have a relationship with God that differs from what the rest of us can have.
What do you call it when one man is the father of a child, but another man is the one who marries his mom, brings him up, and fathers his brothers and sisters?
I’m not trying to say this is the teaching of any authentic church; it’s not. But it’s also not correct to say that Catholics worship Mary as equal to Jesus or believe she can grant salvation, or that they believe sufficient payment of money can absolve the guilt of sin. And a Catholic will tell you that all of their beliefs are based on Scripture and on things passed down from the early Christians. Personally, I am not convinced about transubstantiation (for instance); but I’ve read the passages that justify this belief, and as Protestants we do not have an authority who hands down correct interpretations. If I interpret a verse one way, and someone else another, how is this reconciled? Outside of the Catholic church, generally by founding a new religion.
young christian woman,
I can’t reconcile why it is ok to kill a baby that was conceived by rape. I would counsel against it. I would support a rape victim in any way possible. I just cannot bring myself to force a to accept the consequences of such a violation of her person. I bring this up for discussion specifically because I am unable to reconcile my pro-life stance with my willingness to allow an exception for rape and I wanted other peoples input.
And I chose the seven day period because a mans sperm can live inside a woman for up to seven days and once pregnant a blood test would show pregnancy so if a blood test were negative seven days after rape then a woman would no longer have to be concerned about getting pregnant from the rape.
Thanks Carla :)
Kris
Jespren,
We can discusss these points you mentioned without end. But debating these points is different than your patently false statement that these things are not biblical. In order not to get lost in too many points at once lets just start with your first few points.
The co-redeptive aspect of Mary/salvation through Mary, that Mary was without the stain of original sin:
In scripture it was God himself who chose Mary to be the mother of His son. In scripture Mary is the vessel in which God chose to place the entire salvific economy of all mankind. In scripture Jesus received his humanity through through Mary and Jesus was born without stain of sin; so reason tells me that Mary either was born without original sin or at least somehow shared in the salvation of Christ beforehand and was kept without sin as a part of God’s plan for His son.
Lk 1:
Exodus 25:11-21 ark made of purest gold for God’s word.
According to Article 3 Chapter 2 line 485 of the Catechism:
“The mission of the Holy Spirit is always conjoined and ordered to that of the Son.122 The Holy Spirit, “the Lord, the giver of Life,” is sent to sanctify the womb of the Virgin Mary and divinely fecundate it, causing her to conceive the eternal Son of the Father in a humanity drawn from her own.”
In scripture Jesus performed his first miracle at the Wedding Feast in Cana when at urging of his mother he changed the water into wine. I am comfortable with her urging Jesus to perform miracles for me too.
the worship of saints
We do not “worship” saints, we join in prayerful communion with them as is often written about in scripture:
Romans 15:30
Col 4:3
1Thes 5:25
2Thes 1:11
2Thes 3:1
Eph 6:18-19
Tobit 12:12
Rev 5:8
the repetition of prayers
Sometimes I say the Lord’s prayer fifty times in a row and it means more to me on the fiftieth repetition than on the first.
Mathew 26:44
Rev 4:8
I could go on and on and we could dialogue about these doctrine but it is patently false of you to state that they are not Biblical. It is more correct to say that non-Catholic faiths llack in offering guidance/doctrine to their faithful. Does your church have any “doctrine” on abortion?
I can’t reconcile why it is ok to kill a baby that was conceived by rape. I would counsel against it. I would support a rape victim in any way possible. I just cannot bring myself to force a to accept the consequences of such a violation of her person. I bring this up for discussion specifically because I am unable to reconcile my pro-life stance with my willingness to allow an exception for rape and I wanted other peoples input.
Truthseeker, that was a mighty fine post.
Not arguing here, and I certainly agree with those who note that a conception due to rape doesn’t really differ, biologically, from others, i.e. in all cases it’s human, living, an organism unto itself, etc.
I’m sure there are huge numbers of people who agree with you, being in general pro-life on the abortion issue but making an exception for rape.
Truthseeker:
I have not been raped, but I have been pregnant. Rape is a horrible crime, an invasion of one’s person. Pregnancy is not. Even if I were to become pregnant as a result of rape, I would never hold that against my child. I would not want someone else to adopt my child. I would know that God had some special purpose in his or her life, just as with a child conceived in love by myself and my husband. I have carried two pregnancies to term and lost many little ones early–at least one as early as 10 days. Even though I cannot be sure I was pregnant, I loved and missed that baby. I named him. That may seem silly, but I would rather mourn a baby that never was than risk one of my children passing through this world unknown and unloved. I still think about the very young children I have lost. I wonder what they would have been like had they lived. I don’t dwell on it often or every day, but I love my children, those I bore and those I lost. I also wonder, sometimes, if there was something I could have done–if I had been on a certain medicine, or eating differently, if maybe more of them would have lived. Even though I didn’t know how to give my children the best chance then, I sometimes experience guilt that I wasn’t eating more healthfully or hadn’t done more research. I can only imagine what it would be like to lose a child because I consciously chose to have him or her killed. And although my second pregnancy was far from easy–I had debilitating cramping throughout the first trimester, gallbladder attacks, gestational diabetes, and 3 weeks of on and off labor, and some other aches and pains as well–and I dreaded the prospect that I might be in constant pain for 11 months (I had horrible afterpains the first time around)–the scariest thing that could have happened was losing him.
As a woman, I don’t think abortion should ever be an option. So often we hear that women don’t want abortion but are forced into it or feel forced into it by family, the baby’s father, or situations. I would far rather be protected by laws that prevented pushy doctors from trying to convince me a child’s life would be meaningless than laws that allowed me the self-determination to kill my own child, no matter what the circumstances.
Truthseeker, I know your heart is in the right place. There is nothing good about rape. It just SUCKS and is just TRAGIC and EVIL and thats all there is to it. The bottom line you have to hold to is that the child is a human LIFE and INNOCENT and should not be killed even if the father is a violent predator. Even if its really emotionally and physically tough on the woman. If a woman had a kid and the husband up and left her penniless we wouldn’t condone her killing her born child for what the father did. I know its not a perfect analogy but its still the same basic concept.
Also, have you ever read “Victims and Victors”? Its all about rape and abortion. If you read the testimonies of women in there who were raped and aborted, the abortion amplified the trauma of rape tenfold. The women who gave birth were able to recover sooner from the trauma of rape.
I’ve only ever met 3 women who were raped (that I know of). The one was my bridesmaid and got raped right before my wedding. Her virginity was violently stolen from her. It destroyed her. She changed. The sweet nature she had before was replaced by a crass, sarcastic party girl. She did not get pregnant however. The other two women I mentioned in above posts. The one who had her daughter chose to raise her and felt it helped her overcome her rape. The other lady who got pregnant aborted and acquired an eating disorder, and went through years of counseling not just to deal with the rape but her rage and guilt over her abortion. She is now married and wants a baby and can’t get pregnant. How did abortion help her? It didn’t.
We shouldn’t offer a victim of violence more violence. Raped women often felt that their abortions were surgical rape. Women deserve support not abortion. Thats the truth I hold to.
Jespren
I am a Catholic Christian. There is nothing unbiblical in my Faith tradition. I am sure Bobby or Truthseeker or any other of the Catholic posters would like to explain our Christian tradition with you…..
By the way, I can tell you that:
I DO NOT WORSHIP Mary or any of the saints. I ask them to pray for ME, just as I would ask a friend to pray for me if I was having surgery. Mary was chosen to carry God’s son and therefore, had to preserved from the original sin stain of our First Parents (a pure vessel for a pure and Holy Child). Confession to a priest….Gospel of John 20:23
I also ask the Saints to pray for me. After all, they are closest to God in Heaven…they can take our petitions directly to him. Its called Intercession, not worship.
We read from the bible at Mass….old testament AND New testament. Usually our first reading is from the Old Testament, but during the Easter Season, which lasts until Pentecost, we have readings from the Acts of the Apostles for the first reading. Then we have a Responsorial Psalm and a 2nd reading, usually from Paul’s writings, and then the Gospel and a sermon/Homily.
pertaining to the REAL topic at hand, I’m glad many families in Guatemala have at least three children. They don’t need to be told to have less!
You make a wonderful mother young Christian woman
Thanks :)
Thanks Sydney, I personally would never encourage a rape victim to kill her baby either (I might offer to kill the rapist for her though). I’ll keep my eye out for a copy of “Victims and Victors”.
I just read this:
“Since conception does not occur immediately following intercourse, pregnancy can be eliminated in all rape cases if the rape victim receives immediate medical treatment by having all the male semen removed from her uterus.”
Is this is true? If it is then is it standard procedure to offer this help to rape victims?
young Christian woman:
I appreciate your well thought out posts–spoken from the heart.
Jespren, I have seen the things you said broadcast on non-catholic Christian television stations. I am glad to have open discourse like this and without any animosity cause this is how we grow in our faith and become one body in Jesus Christ. I respect your expression that you are not comfortable in dialoguing this on this site. If you’d like to continue this dialogue somewhere other than here we could continue this conversation at the forum http://www.fvfapp.org under the Foundations of Faith forum. I just started a topic named “Is catholic doctrine biblical” and posted a few of our previous comments to open the discussion.
The peace of Jesus Christ be with you.
After further research I do not think the semen removal option is currently a viable option available to women. I would be ok with offering the emergency contraception option to rape victims in order to prevent a woman from releasing any eggs. It is true that this could cause an already fertilized egg to not implant, but that would not be the intended purpose of the action. If she is not already pregnant when she takes the contraception then it should be safe.
For any of this to work we would need women to report rape and seek immediate help.
It also relies, TS, on women’s honesty. Seven days is not enough time for a trial. If it’s the only way to get an abortion, there will be women who have unprotected sex and then say they were raped. Also, one would need to verify they were not pregnant before the rape.
I don’t think women having consentual unprotected sex would make the effort to get immeditely tested etc. within the first seven days. But a pregnancy test immediately after the rape would tell if she was pregnant prior to the rape.
One other consideration is that when a woman ovulates the egg only survives in the woman for one day where it can be fertilized. Can any of the nurses on this web site tell me how many days a woman’s ovulation spans? Are all the eggs released at once or do eggs get released over a period of days? Does a woman only typically release only a single egg each period?
I found this answer when I googled ovulation:
“A woman cannot ovulate more than once during each cycle, therefore she cannot get pregnant more than once during a cycle. Multiple ovulation can occur and is when two or more eggs are released in a single cycle. Both eggs are released during one 24 hour period and are responsible for the birth of fraternal twins. It is believed that this may occur in as many as 5-10% of all cycles but does not result in that many twins due to a type of miscarriage referred to as the “vanishing twin phenomenon.””
1) woman gets raped
2) Immediate medical care (blood test) is given to determine pregnancy and level of Leutenizing Hormone (LH).
3) If pregnancy test comes back NO and LH levels are not raised (no ovulation occurring) then emergency contraception is taken
4) Woman will not ovulate and no pregnancy occurs as a result of rape.
These services should be offered to ALL rape victims who report rape immediately. I do not know if our ‘rape victims units’ currently make these efforts but I would like to find out cause they should.
Interestingly stress is a factor in ovulation. I guess that would mean a womans own body will usually naturally keep her from ovulating after a rape. That must be one of the contributing factors to why pregnancy from rape is so rare. In those rare cases it would likely mean that the woman ovulated just prior to the rape.
2) Rape advocate called to meet traumatized woman at the hospital.
3) Rape test kit done and evidence gathered to catch the PERPETRATOR of this horrific crime.
Is your list possible, plausible? Ovulation can be stopped? Do you have links that I can read?
You are against ending the life of a newly conceived human being right Truthseeker?
Yes Carla. I have been researching this on the web all morning and I believe the primary way emergency contraception works is by stopping ovulation.
Yes I am against ending the life of a newly conceived human being. That is why I would go the extra step of measuring the level of LH to prevent the unintended consequence of causing the possible death of an embryo in a circumstance where ovualtion occurred just prior to the rape and that egg has not yet been fertilized.
Truthseeker: I would support the use of emergency contraceptive if we could be certain ovulation had not occurred. Carla – there are ways to delay or prevent ovulation if you’re a few days out (probably not if it’s imminent – but I can’t confirm that).
Rape was my last hold out too as I turned to the pro-life position. B/c it honestly is the ONLY situation in which a woman has no choice. In all other situations, she consented to the risk of pregnancy. But ultimately, I had to acknowledge that the result is the same and the child is just as innocent in the situation of rape. I realized that we take human life so seriously that if the woman went out and killed the rapist – the guilty party – she would be tried for some form of homicide, probably murder. We don’t even allow her to kill the one who did it. We can’t sanction the taking of an innocent life. Rape is unfair. It’s horrible. The woman is innocent and she doesn’t deserve this trial. But the child is innocent too.
Totally agree, CT! Well said!
Truthseeker: I would support the use of emergency contraceptive if we could be certain ovulation had not occurred.
CT, that is why I wonder if the level of LH in the woman’s system could be tested to tell us this. Since the egg only survives in the woman for less that a day it seems like a plausible way to determine if ovulation has occured.
CT said:
“Carla – there are ways to delay or prevent ovulation if you’re a few days out (probably not if it’s imminent – but I can’t confirm that).”
That is the question I would like an answer to also CT.
How quickly does a woman’s body react to the emergency contracption (progestin hormone) and stop ovulation.
Truthseeker re LH : In theory it’s suppose to rise and then ovulation occurs, and then fall, but I don’t know if there is a range of numbers that means ovulation will definitely occur or if it’s different for each woman. It’s also hard to catch the LH surge even when you’re trying. And I guess it does all rest on how far out you have to be to prevent ovulation (ie – even if a woman is not surging, if it’s close to the surge, would it be too late). I don’t know how precise we are, but having gone through some hormonal issues I can say that these things tend to be really tricky. Even when you’re looking,tracking etc there seem to be guessing. ie – you see evidence of impending ovulation or evidence that ovulation has occurred, but you don’t KNOW really. I’m curious too – if a dr or medical person could weigh in on it, it would be helpful.
@ Truthseeker: I’m sorry, I did miss your reply with the link. I followed it, and it tells me I have to register to leave a comment, when I click to register it tells me new registration is closed :( I invite you over to my blog: http://tigaseren.blogspot.com pick any post and leave a comment and I’ll pick up the thread. Or you have the option of emailing me from the profile page of my blog, if you’d prefer to discuss via email. One of the reasons I don’t want to get into it on this blog (in addition to as you said it could get very confrontation given the range of beliefs and tempers on this site, as we saw on the 5 abortions-2nd this year post! Is that I view this via it’s mobile site, and as the comment stream gets longer it becomes very difficult to get it to load correctly. Which is probably why I missed your comment earlier.)
ok, I posted under the “I’m a country kid” line