Should men have the right to choose “financial abortions”?
As costs rise and opportunities disappear, shouldn’t men have the same rights as women to control their entrance into parenthood? Does that make them any less responsible than mothers who drop off their infants at hospital backdoors, no questions asked, because they realized they were not ready for motherhood?
Financial abortion, in the strictest sense, can be simplified to the most elementary of terms: No taxation without representation. If a woman’s body cannot be legislated; neither, then, should a man’s right to choose when he becomes a father….
As a mother, sister and friend who bears witness to the fear, anger and frustration that women whom I love dearly face month to month when child-support payments are late or non-existent, this exploration into the nuances of equality was extremely difficult to tackle. However, I had to ask myself, and challenge other women in the pro-choice movement to ask themselves – this brutally honest question:
Do we believe in absolute freedom of choice – or merely our choice?
~ Kirsten West Savali, Huffington Post, October 20
[Photo via mommyish.com]
There’s just so much wrong with the full article.
“When a mother decides that abortion is her only option, with or without the father’s consent, she is legally able to do so. This layered bias has been encouraged and accepted by society as a whole because the percentage of men who negate their responsibility to their children is much higher than those left heartbroken over a partner’s abortion.”
No, it’s been encouraged and accepted because our society worships bodily autonomy. Sacrifice is something to be avoided at all costs.
“There is, however, a controversial argument that has been swept under the rug. While pro-choice legislation makes the rights of the mother clear, at what point is a father able to say, ‘I do not want this child’?”
Um, when is he able to say “I want this child”?
“Whether pro-life or pro-choice, we should all be able to agree that the quality of life is just as important as life itself, and when faced with the pivotal decision of whether or not to continue a pregnancy, both parents must be included in the dialogue. If not, ultimately, it is the child who suffers.”
Maybe it’s unfortunate that she used the phrase “quality of life”, but I have a visceral reaction to it. That’s the tagline of euthanasia proponents. It’s just so hard for me to accept the “it is the child who suffers” plea from a pro-choice person who thinks that it’s just fine and dandy if that child were eliminated in the womb. It sounds like she’s arguing that all those problem fatherless children should have been aborted.
Looking at the stats she quoted of the problems facing fatherless children, what solution has she offered? That fathers be able to legally abandon their unwanted children when the mother is so rude as to insist that the pregnancy continue?
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As costs rise and opportunities disappear, shouldn’t men have the same rights as women to control their entrance into parenthood?
As far as “the same,” if men could get pregnant too, then that’d be the ticket.
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What a crock of bull. Instead of any concern at all that fathers are denied their children by aborting mothers (which is a real tragedy and as unfair as it gets but oh, everyone knows men are louts who don’t want children, right?), here we have an abortion advocate who suggests that the only equality is if a man can force a woman to abort. Wow. Could abortion advocates fall any lower? It’s not enough to sit idly by as Chinese families are destroyed by their government. It’s not enough to sit idly by as women, even in the west, abort their female children. Nope, not enough. She may as well be blunt: ‘To be really fair, we have to put even more pressure on women to abort. How dare anyone want their own child? Don’t they realize that if anyone at all in the world thinks they shouldn’t mother their own child, then they should get to Planned Parenthood immediately?’
I guess the body count isn’t high enough for them, ever.
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I debate choicers on this, to point out how logically flawed their arguments are. It is hilarious that it takes literally five minutes for them to start using our arguments against abortion to argue against financial abortion.
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what baloney…what about the fact that the FATHERS are the ones ABANDONING the women when they tell them they are pregnant. I am sad when I read of someone having three children with DIFFERENT fathers….
The problem lies in the fact that men and women sometimes have poor role models. And that leads to often making poor choices.
What this person writing the article fails to realize is that a man is already a father when a woman says she’s pregnant….Just as she’s already a mom.
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Granting men the “right” to choose not to become a father is going to lead to the devastation of women’s bodies and minds. In fact, it already has. When men take this so-called right (whether they have the right or not), and force women to abort against their will, maybe killing the woman if she refuses, he’s assuming he has the “right” to have sex without responsibility, and that the woman must take all the consequences in her body.
A person having rights limits the rights of other people to do things that violate those rights. Your right to swing your fist ends just before my nose begins. If men with pregnant wives or girlfriends have the “right” not to be fathers, what does that do to the woman’s right to choose whether or not to have an abortion? The answer is clear, if he has the right to not be a father, her right to choose to carry the pregnancy to term is null and void. This creates a China situation of forced or coerced abortions for women who don’t want abortions.
How anyone can support this, or even suggest supoorting this, and call themselves “pro-choice” is the ultimate in hypocracy. Anything that takes away a woman right, or even the ability, to choose NOT to abort is anti-choice for the woman. And “pro-choice” people are hypocrites if they support taking away the right to choose live birth for the baby. In this case, they are pro-abortion, NOT pro-choice.
However, for the abortion industry, anything that will compel women to abort, even if they don’t want to, will increase sales for the abortion industry. So they’ll be in favor of giving men the “right to choose,” as long as the right of choice only is on the side of abortion. They wouldn’t want men to have a right to protect their babies and stop the women from aborting. The force for them, must only be on the side of abortion, to increase abortion industry profits.
If we’re really concerned about “equality,” why don’t we just tell men who are desperate not to be fathers to keep their pants zipped up. Then they won’t have to worry about it.
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The financial abortion argument isn’t about forcing women to abort, it is about letting men opt out of financially supporting their children, if they “don’t want to be father”. Reducing men to wallets instead of fathers, pretty awesome.
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Men should absolutely not have the right to abdicate responsibility for the children they create. Nor should women. But the article is correct in that right now women have the right to kill their unborn children to avoid parenthood while men are deemed to be capable of accepting the responsibility that procreation accompanies sexual intercourse. People are throwing out the bodily autonomy argument more often (which is easily refuted also), but it’s a red herring b/c they still argue for abortion by appealing to the strains of parenthood. Strains that only women should have the right to avoid according to them.
As with all pro-abortion logic, you have to get more horrible in order to be consistent.
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Maybe it’s me and it’s Friday ( a long week), but I just have a hard time understanding what point she is trying to make. Could someone explain her argument to me? Thanks.
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what baloney…what about the fact that the FATHERS are the ones ABANDONING the women when they tell them they are pregnant. I am sad when I read of someone having three children with DIFFERENT fathers….
What about four or five different fathers, all of whom are MIA? It’s not uncommon. Maybe women should be more responsible about the partners they select — but then again, I guess I’m “blaming the victim.”
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Don’t really have to read the article. Pretty much every time I go to the huff post, which I admit is seldom, my reaction has been consistent: I’m flabbergasted that there are people walking around in the culture whose views are so utterly absurd.
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The article is not the clearest article I have ever read, but I gather it is, as JackBorsch wrote, “about letting men opt out of financially supporting their children, if they ‘don’t want to be father’.” Financial abortion appears to be a supposedly clever term for rejecting financial responsibility and consequence. Inadvertently, the author makes the great point that abortion, then, is rejecting every other responsibility and consequence.
The article does make a great point of the double standard of abortion. Unfortunately the conclusion of the article is that to achieve equality, men should be able to reject responsibility. Another conclusion the author fails to acknowledge would be both men and women should accept responsibility and consequence if they create a new life together.
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What’s shocking is the author states these statistics:
• 63% of youth suicides are from fatherless homes
• 90% of all homeless and runaway children are from fatherless homes
• 85% of all children who show behavior disorders come from fatherless homes
• 80% of rapists with anger problems come from fatherless homes
• 71% of all high school dropouts come from fatherless homes
• 75% of all adolescent patients in chemical abuse centers come from fatherless homes
• 70% of youths in state-operated institutions come from fatherless homes.
• 85% of all youths in prison come from fatherless homes.
And then concludes that men should be able to legally abandon their children financially, ’cause it’s only fair. WTH?
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Yes – wrong conclusion – Men should be engaged with their children and involved with the mother of their children. Ideally, everyone should be thinking about this when they decide that they want to be intimate.
The answer is love – not violence. Again – it’s all about responsibility – and having the men off the hook, so to speak, instead of demanding more of them is silly. Again – lowering standards will not make for good change – just it will lower standards.
Just when I thought that thinking could not get any shoddier, I am surprised again. But here is hoping for hope, love and goodness. Let’s aim high. We’ll get a lot closer to what we want as a society for families, and everything – when we aim high.
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The point of the article is that women get to decide after conception whether they want to parent a child, and men have no say in this. If the woman wants to, they owe money. If she doesn’t, they can’t stop her from aborting. To make things “fair,” men should have the legal right to opt out of the obligations of fatherhood just as women can opt out of motherhood. Women get a post-conception say in the matter, but men do not.
The normal pro-choice response I have seen to this is to say that once the child is here, he’s here, and he needs support no matter whether he was wanted or not – he should not suffer just because one parent didn’t want him – so the parents, both of them, have an obligation to support him. And if a man doesn’t feel that he can support the child his partner may choose to carry to term, he shouldn’t have sex with her. Which is, as Jack pointed out, pretty much exactly the same arguments pro-choice people tend to consider absurd when it comes to abortion.
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Lolololol! This is a real convo I had with a pro-choicer on this subject, paraphrased:
PCer: Child support is necessary.
Me: I agree, both parents, both genders, need to be responsible for the safety and welfare of the children they produce. Why do you think women have the right to abdicate responsibility through abortion, but men do not have the right to refuse to parent the child if the woman carried to term?
PCer: A man can make the choice before sex if he wants to be a father. If he doesn’t want children, he can have a vasectomy or use birth control. If it fails he needs to take responsibility for the child. Biologically, having sex with a woman can produce a child, so men need to be aware of the chance.
Me: If I said that as an anti-abortion argument, with the words “man” and “father” switched with “woman” and “mother”, and “vasectomy” switched with “tubal ligation”, you would call me a disgusting misogynist and tell me sex isn’t consent to pregnancy.
PCer: ……..
LOL! Gotta love hypocrisy.
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I get her point. Women hold all the cards when they get pregnant. They can choose abortion, adoption, or parenting. Men can’t choose either. It’s not fair, but biology isn’t. It’s not fair women have to go through childbirth, have periods, and get less of a window to procreate. It’s impossible for the law to completely redress this.
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“both parents, both genders” – I disagree.
“Why do you think women have the right to abortion, but men do not have the right to refuse to parent the child if the woman carried to term?” – because men don’t get pregnant.
I wouldn’t feel the need to call you a disgusting misogynist if you said the following:
“A woman can make the choice before sex if she wants to be a mother” – yes she can. She can use contraception, or if that fails, terminate the pregnancy.
“If she doesn’t want children, she can have a tubal ligation or use birth control” – well of course she can. And if the birth control fails, she can have an abortion.
What Nicole said.
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i have met many men who wanted to parent their children but the woman wanted an abortion. what about if the man said he didnt want the baby? can he just tell child support he didnt want the baby and get out of paying? womens lib has destroyed us with abortion on demand. thanks:/
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and i know plenty of women who wanted the abortion. they werent in a crisis. it was just a choice to “get rid” of the problem. heck they werent gonna let some kid tie them to the dad (but he was good enough to bed down with) they werent gonna let some kid make their life harder. nope they just aborted because it was there.
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i believe when amanda marcotte became pregnant her boyfriend wanted to marry her but she chose abortion instead.
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This article is very logically unsound.
The author as well as the people on this board are ignoring the types of sanctions we as a society doll out.
In America we don’t have an ultimate entitlement to our money. When we make money we pay taxes. If we speed we pay fines. If we wrong someone they can sue us for as much money as they want. Money is not sacred nor is it treated as such my our legal system. Many many many
things we do some wrongdoings as well as sanctioned actions allow Other people to take our
money.
But not our bodies. Except by
Incarceration people are not obliged to use our bodies against our will. And frankly the pain of childbirth is more that we are allowed to subject any inmate to (even those put to death)
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Thus the question isn’t why do men have to be responsible and women do not?
Because no law exist that says men have to be responsible. A law exists that says men have to send money. A man can forfeit custody and never has to see his kid if he wants!
So the only appropriate question to ask to ensure euqak treatment is why isn’t there a law that says women have to send money?
And the answer to that is there is a law
So there isn’t any disparate treatment at all
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heather, I don’t think Amanda Marcotte has ever had an abortion. She had a pregnancy scare, likely due to stress, during an emotionally and mentally difficult time in her life, shortly after being assaulted. The boyfriend who offered to marry her was emotionally abusive; it’s misleading to portray her refusal to marry him as some kind of selfishness. Abortion would have been selfish, but it’s not like she was just turning up her nose at this great man who was laying down his life for her just because “abortion was there.”
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alexandra i did read gthat amanda had an abortion
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unless i read incorrect information i did indeed read that amanda aborted. does anyone know for a fact that she didnt?
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She has said multiple times that she has not had an abortion, I believe. You are thinking of this story, it sounds like: http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/01/nine-months-for-a-pound-of-flesh/
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I get her point. Women hold all the cards when they get pregnant. They can choose abortion, adoption, or parenting. Men can’t choose either. It’s not fair, but biology isn’t. It’s not fair women have to go through childbirth, have periods, and get less of a window to procreate. It’s impossible for the law to completely redress this.
Who says the law has to redress anything? Biology is neither fair or unfair. “Fairness” is a human construct.
Anyway, I echo Jack’s sentiments. I think it’s wonderfully hilarious that equality and all that jazz only gets invoked when it’s in the best interest of the woman to invoke it. Go to Guttmacher and look at the reasons why women have abortions; you’ll quickly notice that women almost overwhelmingly have abortions for financial reasons rather than any reason stemming from the fact that it’s her body. And if it’s okay for a woman to absolve herself of parental duties for some reason which equally affects a man, why shouldn’t a man be able to absolve himself of parental duties for some reason which would equally affect a woman?
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“I’m not talking about fathers opting out of obligations that they’ve committed to. I mean early in pregnancy, if contraception failed, men should have a choice, and women have a right to know what that choice is as they decide how to proceed.”
The above quote is actually something I’ve been thinking about. It is logically consistent with the “choice” idea of “sex is not consent to pregnancy”. I don’t know that I’ve ever heard a pro-choicer actually agree with this though. Personally, I think choice is only valid prior to conception. I have a real issue with the hypocrisy. The authors last question is a valid one:
Do we believe in absolute freedom of choice — or merely our choice?
I’ve asked them why men can’t require a woman to carry to term if he wants the child, but if he doesn’t she can make him pay for 18 years. 9 months vs. 18 years??? How is that right? I know there are physical risks with pregnancy, but still. The only answers I’ve ever gotten was a repeated “you can’t make a woman stay pregnant” or silence.
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Are there statistics about the % of fathers who want/try to abdicate responsibility for their children before they are born? How big is this issue, vs. men who decide after the kid is born that they don’t want to be involved at all? I should do more research, but a quick look into the issue indicates that financial barriers and other unfortunate life circumstances prevent men from paying child support more often than lack of desire.
And while I don’t really like the idea of it, I think fathers should be able to relinquish responsibility before the child is born. You’re right–we can’t expect women to have choice without extending that same right to men. But after the kid is born, all parties need to be on board, so to speak.
I also feel like we (as a society) still privilege the importance of financial, over the emotional, support that fathers contribute to their children’s upbringing. To paraphrase Jack, yeah, we’re treating dads like “walking paychecks.” While not eliminating the child support system, maybe there could be more programs in place to help fathers remain directly involved in their children’s lives from birth onward, rather than simply demanding that they shell out cash every month (the bulk of which goes to pay for bureaucratic stuff, anyway). Drug treatment programs? Work assistance? I’d be all for that if kids could get the love, attention, and resources they need to thrive.
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Men do have a choice. They do not have to have sex with a woman- this is where the choice lies for both partners, male and female. If you have sex, you might create a new life, this is not a secret! There is no perfect birth control, so every time one has sex, one takes a chance at reproducing. This very serious fact has eluded our modern world. People who have sex and create new life are responsible for that life: physically, emotionally, financially. Human beings have been given the gift to create new life, and it is not to be taken lightly.
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Reality:
““both parents, both genders” – I disagree.”
Do you think some parents, barring unfortunate cases of mental illness or something like that, are exempt from caring for their children?
““Why do you think women have the right to abortion, but men do not have the right to refuse to parent the child if the woman carried to term?” – because men don’t get pregnant.”
And that makes a huge difference how? Yes, yes, it’s her body, I know. However, for the pro-choice position to be consistent, a man needs to have a post-conception opt out clause, like abortion provides for women.
““A woman can make the choice before sex if she wants to be a mother” – yes she can. She can use contraception, or if that fails, terminate the pregnancy. “If she doesn’t want children, she can have a tubal ligation or use birth control” – well of course she can. And if the birth control fails, she can have an abortion.”
So, one sex can choose their reproduction at will, and another can’t. Yes, it’s biology. However, pro-choicers believe that women should be able to legally circumvent biology through abortion – terminating a fetus that would naturally grow and result in a live birth in normal cases. You assert that she has the right to disrupt her biology in this way. You argue, though, that even though biology dictates that men don’t have this option, they should not be able to “correct” for that by abdicating any parental responsibility to the child. It’s not logical.
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At any rate, I happen to agree with Megan about society focusing on the monetary aspect of fatherhood rather than actual parenting. That definitely needs to change. I wouldn’t consider myself much of a father if I simply sent my kids some money once a month. That isn’t parenting.
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hi dan,
I deleted your comment. There is no swearing allowed. You are free to try commenting again minus the swearing. Thank you.
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Jack: I debate choicers on this, to point out how logically flawed their arguments are. It is hilarious that it takes literally five minutes for them to start using our arguments against abortion to argue against financial abortion.
Jack, it’s a good discussion that really does make you think. Do you see it as “logically flawed” to point out the the woman is the one who is pregnant, rather than the man, though?
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The financial abortion argument isn’t about forcing women to abort, it is about letting men opt out of financially supporting their children, if they “don’t want to be father”. Reducing men to wallets instead of fathers, pretty awesome.
I pretty much agree – one would hope that women are not having babies because “the man is paying.”
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CT: People are throwing out the bodily autonomy argument more often (which is easily refuted also), but it’s a red herring b/c they still argue for abortion by appealing to the strains of parenthood. Strains that only women should have the right to avoid according to them.
Gotta disagree, CT. You can assert that your opinion should hold sway – that the life of the unborn trumps the woman’s liberty and bodily autonomy, but you can’t “refute” it.
As for parenting being a strain, once there’s a born baby, both parents are held liable for the baby’s support (unless the baby’s been adopted, or one parent has successfully opted out by agreement, etc.). It’s not like the woman then has the right to avoid requirements while the man does not.
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Joy: Just when I thought that thinking could not get any shoddier, I am surprised again. But here is hoping for hope, love and goodness. Let’s aim high. We’ll get a lot closer to what we want as a society for families, and everything – when we aim high.
Joy, very nice posts from you, on a continuing basis. :)
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Nicole: It’s not fair, but biology isn’t. It’s not fair women have to go through childbirth, have periods, and get less of a window to procreate. It’s impossible for the law to completely redress this.
Exactly. It’s not a question of “fair,” there, but rather biological fact – that things are different from the get-go. It’s not even a significant issue – society isn’t going to have the issue of child support take a back seat anyway.
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Alexandra: The normal pro-choice response I have seen to this is to say that once the child is here, he’s here, and he needs support no matter whether he was wanted or not – he should not suffer just because one parent didn’t want him – so the parents, both of them, have an obligation to support him.
Well, yeah, at that point what compelling argument do you see that not supporting the child is the way to go? I’m sure you don’t see one, and pro-choicers are agreed and that’s already’s society’s position. The “obligation” isn’t absolute, of course – many times the baby’s adopted (now the biological parents aren’t obligated) or one parent, officially or unofficially, has terminated things and the other parent is okay with that.
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And if a man doesn’t feel that he can support the child his partner may choose to carry to term, he shouldn’t have sex with her. Which is, as Jack pointed out, pretty much exactly the same arguments pro-choice people tend to consider absurd when it comes to abortion.
It’s two different things, though. Yes, sure – most will say that preventing an unwanted pregnancy is better than ending one by abortion. But once a pregnancy is fact, then that’s no longer an option. Both people, presumably, have the choice whether or not to have sex. When that’s no longer applicable, however, then it can only be the woman who can be pregnant, rather than the man.
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PCer: “A man can make the choice before sex if he wants to be a father. If he doesn’t want children, he can have a vasectomy or use birth control. If it fails he needs to take responsibility for the child. Biologically, having sex with a woman can produce a child, so men need to be aware of the chance.”
Jack: Me: “If I said that as an anti-abortion argument, with the words “man” and “father” switched with “woman” and “mother”, and “vasectomy” switched with “tubal ligation”, you would call me a disgusting misogynist and tell me sex isn’t consent to pregnancy.”
Okay, so it would then be: A woman can make the choice before sex if she wants to be a mother. If she doesn’t want children, she can have a tubal ligation or use birth control. If it fails, she needs to take responsibility for the child. Biologically, having sex with a man can produce a child, so women need to be aware of the chance.”
Indeed – women can make the choice before having sex, use birth control, or have a tubal. Yet “taking responsibility for the child” probably means after the baby is born – when there is no issue over whether “child” even applies, and when pro-choicers (and society itself) are on the same page as pro-lifers. If it didn’t mean that, then hard to believe that it was a pro-choicer that said it to you. I think that women are certainly aware of the chance of sex meaning pregnancy, and if they don’t want children, they can have an abortion. If men got pregnant, they could too.
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Some Guy: Who says the law has to redress anything? Biology is neither fair or unfair. “Fairness” is a human construct.
Yep.
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Anyway, I echo Jack’s sentiments. I think it’s wonderfully hilarious that equality and all that jazz only gets invoked when it’s in the best interest of the woman to invoke it.
I think the point is that as far as pregnancy and gestation there is no “equality” between the man and woman. Only the woman can be pregnant.
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Go to Guttmacher and look at the reasons why women have abortions; you’ll quickly notice that women almost overwhelmingly have abortions for financial reasons rather than any reason stemming from the fact that it’s her body.
Of course. That “it’s her body,” is a given, it’s not a motivation to end a pregnancy, any more than it is to continue one.
“This is my arm.” Do I throw a baseball or not?
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And if it’s okay for a woman to absolve herself of parental duties for some reason which equally affects a man, why shouldn’t a man be able to absolve himself of parental duties for some reason which would equally affect a woman?
Society isn’t saying there are “parental duties” on the part of either man or woman when an abortion can be had. There’s no “absolving,’ there, in the first place. When society says the man can’t absolve himself, the same applies to the woman.
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momolot, quoting: “I’m not talking about fathers opting out of obligations that they’ve committed to. I mean early in pregnancy, if contraception failed, men should have a choice, and women have a right to know what that choice is as they decide how to proceed.”
I’d say that most people would say it’s better to prevent an unwanted pregnancy, versus having an abortion. Doesn’t always happen, but in a more “perfect” world it’d be nice. It’d also be nice if both woman and man were totally honest and communicative with each other – and there is certainly nothing stopping the woman from asking the man what he thinks, if he hasn’t already told her. Also, it’d be nice if the woman isn’t continuing the pregnancy on the basis of “he’ll have to give me money.”
Still, are the man’s desires, either way, going to overrule the woman’s, when she is the one pregnant? Can’t see the answer being anything but “no.”
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momolot: The above quote is actually something I’ve been thinking about. It is logically consistent with the “choice” idea of “sex is not consent to pregnancy”. I don’t know that I’ve ever heard a pro-choicer actually agree with this though.
If not, it’s because it’s really not stated correctly. Hey, sometimes sex = pregnancy, and who can really argue with that, pro-choice or pro-life? “Sex is not consent to remain pregnant” – there you go.
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Well, yeah, at that point what compelling argument do you see that not supporting the child is the way to go? I’m sure you don’t see one, and pro-choicers are agreed and that’s already’s society’s position.
I actually do know a few people who think men should be able to opt out of child support, provided the fathers do so before the child is born. They think men should be able to opt out of fatherhood during pregnancy, as women can opt out of motherhood. Why not?
Yes, sure – most will say that preventing an unwanted pregnancy is better than ending one by abortion. But once a pregnancy is fact, then that’s no longer an option.
Exactly, Doug – the disagreement is merely about at what point the pregnancy becomes “fact.”
At what point does a pregnancy become fact?
At what point does a man become a father? If at birth, why can he not refuse to become a father prior to that point?
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Alexandra: I actually do know a few people who think men should be able to opt out of child support, provided the fathers do so before the child is born. They think men should be able to opt out of fatherhood during pregnancy, as women can opt out of motherhood. Why not?
On a blanket basis, society isn’t going to go for that. During the time that women can opt out/have an abortion, there’s really nothing required from the many anyway. The obligations he’s deemed to have start when the woman is also held liable.
On a situational basis, many times the woman is of adequate means to support the kid, and with her consent, even with her strong admonition, the man opts out and is “never seen again,” so to speak. Though in general it’s better for kids to have two parents, sometimes one of them realizes that things will be better with the other one gone. Occasionally it’s the man who ends with custody and the woman is gone.
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“Yes, sure – most will say that preventing an unwanted pregnancy is better than ending one by abortion. But once a pregnancy is fact, then that’s no longer an option.”
A: Exactly, Doug – the disagreement is merely about at what point the pregnancy becomes “fact.”
I don’t think it’s a disagreement, Alexandra. I was saying that there’s some conflating of choices going on, at times when some of them are not possible, and that really doesn’t make sense.
At what point does a pregnancy become fact?
Between you and me, it’s either at syngamy/fertilization/”new life” or at implantation. I think the medical definition of being pregnant has to have the blastocyst implant. Either way, I don’t see it as an argument between us.
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At what point does a man become a father? If at birth, why can he not refuse to become a father prior to that point?
Biologically, he’s a “father” at fertilization, no? Or he may be passing out cigars and saying he “became a father today,” often about 9 months later.
There is no “refusing” to be the biological father once fertilization has occurred. However, society could say, “Okay, dude, go ahead and “not be a father” until birth.” At that point, however, he’s often going to owe child support. Maybe the situation won’t have him held liable – society wants a certain level of care and support for the kid, and if the woman can do it on her own, and if she’s okay with the man not paying, then that may be the deal. But society isn’t going to have the general rule be that the man “should not ‘have’ to pay” just as it also deems the mother to be liable for support.
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Woah woah woah- When is the privilege of bearing a child labeled an “unfair burden” on the mother? If anything is unfair, it’s that men will never have that connection with another person that mothers have with their babies. Women who can’t conceive or bear children often mourn never having that experience.
It’s unfair that men can have sex and not get pregnant? If you value sex over babies. If you value babies over sex, it’s unfair that men can not get pregnant. Apparently, the only thing of value in this discussion is sex.
The truth is: nothing is “fair” or “unfair”, except that all children deserve to live and be cared for by both their mother and father. Suggesting ways for mom to wrong the child through abortion or the father to wrong the child through abandonment- that is what is unfair- not protecting the lifestyles of adults who had a choice to create the child or not, exercised their choice and now want to bail. I care more about the innocent child in this than a woman who got pregnant but doesn’t want to be a mother or a man who got a woman pregnant and doesn’t want to be a father. What they want is irrelevant to what IS- they are parents, whether they want to do “parenting” or not.
What is unfair is that reproductive organs function on these irresponsible, self-involved people while others desperately struggle to start a family anyway they can.
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Women have the option of adoption. We don’t call that abandonment. This is where a lot of people say the inequality lies. Women can sign away their rights to someone else. Men can’t without the mom’s permission.
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Jaqueline
Did the adoption go through yet?
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Nicole: Women have the option of adoption. We don’t call that abandonment. This is where a lot of people say the inequality lies. Women can sign away their rights to someone else. Men can’t without the mom’s permission.
Nicole, if the man has sole custody, I would think that would not be the case. The woman would likely be allowed to have input/have her say, just as the man would be if the woman had custody and wanted to give the baby up for adoption. It’s only after birth that the man would be held liable for child support, but I’m still guessing that you were talking about a pregnant woman here…
If you are talking about a pregnant woman agreeing to give the baby to adoptive parents, then yeah – there is indeed an inequality there, but it’s just the biological fact that only women can be pregnant.
An interesting question though – is it really the case that a pregnant woman can give the baby up for adoption even if the father wants to have custody?
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This is why I agree with this article and I am a single Mom. My now Husband just recently was notified he has a 4 year old Daughter with a Woman he had protected sex with. Used a condom and used it correctly. What I’m getting at is there is no way she could have gotten pregnant without poking holes in the condom and she has admitted to doing so in court. He did not want another child. She was aware of this. She purposely waited 4 years to announce this so she could take him to court for support knowing he wouldn’t be able to get any form of custody since the child is 4 and they dont know each other. You can’t say “well it take two” not when one person took steps to prevent the pregnancy. Now all my husband does is give this woman every penny we have since the support gets backed to the day the child was born. Even though he never knew she existed, the court doesn’t care. They don’t care that we don’t have the funds to support our three children right now. (I have a son from a previous marriage and he has two) the mother of this child doesn’t work and sits on welfare all day every day. This is the problem with our society. We let people like this fly by with no responsibility ever. She wanted the child, not my husband. She is the one the poked holes in the condom not him and yet here we are not only supporting the child we don’t want but also the mother.
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You can’t say “well it take two” not when one person took steps to prevent the pregnancy.
Your husband obviously didn’t know, communicate with, trust and love the condom-hole-poking lady enough to be having sex with her.
If he absolutely knew he wanted no more children, he could have chosen to abstain or gotten a vasectomy (which still has a small chance).
and yet here we are not only supporting the child we don’t want but also the mother.
and yet another child has selfish adults involved in his life. I can and will say, “Well, it takes two.” In your case, another person has stepped up to the plate to hate him as well.
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oops. Stepped up to hate her as well.
Prayers for this precious little four-year old girl.
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Id like to add that my Husband has been paying her support since the day he was told. There is still no court ordered support since she never showed to all three paternity tests ordered. He is supporting this child just in case it is his. However the mother always wants more and more. One day her power is shut off the next she needs gas money. We have no problem supporting the child if it is his but the system seems to only protect the women and not the men. Yes, my husband had sex with someone he hardly knew and he isn’t proud of it. A lot of people could say the same. How many of us can think back and say “omg if I had a child with that person how terrible things would have been. ” we are concerned because when this does go to court, we will be ordered to pay her almost 800 a week because we worked hard through college an grad school. It doesn’t costs 800 a week to support a child. But it will be based on income. And we will be the Mother’s support. None of it will go to the poor child. Again, this is why I agree to keep unwanted children out of the world. We will do everything we can to help this child he didn’t want but the mother, the issue, will always be a leech.
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Again, this is why I agree to keep unwanted children out of the world
I don’t want your children. Maybe we should start with them.
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Its apparently a situation you really cant understand unless you’ve experienced it yourself. And obviously a lot of people are perfect and never will. What I’m getting at is our entire system needs to be addressed and re-worked. We’re selfish people because we ARE supporting this child? Selfish because my Husband didnt want another child? The fact remains that people have sex all the time and don’t want a child out of it. A child can be the outcome but isn’t always. Especially when it is understood that measures are being taken to prevent it. No, we are not selfish for not wanting to pay an insane amount of support for this child. Something more reasonable would be no problem. However, our system is designed to allow leeches of society (the mother) to stay on public assistance for the rest of their lives. You don’t want my children and I don’t blame you, i don’t want your children either. I can guarantee none of my children or family have been or ever will be a debt to society. But these women that lie and get pregnant on purpose and then feel they should have absolutely zero financial responsibility for that child is BS and that is where our system needs to change.
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And just so we’re clear. I do not support abortions. When I say “keeping unwanted children from the world” I’m referring to the right of financial abortion. There is a great inequality between the sexes on this topic. Abortion is never the answer and that is my opinion. However, adoption is a great answer. There are plenty of families that want children and can’t have them. Or keep the child knowing the Father does not want a child. But women need to be held accountable for their decisions. It was not the man’s decision, it was the woman’s. They chose to have sex, not raise a child.
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They chose to have sex, not raise a child.
^This is the bad fruit born of the evil of contraception.
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Of course fathers should be allowed to do this.
The most irritating argument, not to mention the most irrational one, is to say “when they can get pregnant, then they can choose”.
No. Because “you” have to carry the child, that gives “you” full right to make the choices of “your” body. You will still be allowed to abort the child, nobody is saying you shouldn’t be allowed. Just because it is “your” body does not mean that only “you” get the choice of parenthood. There is a difference between parenthood and pregnancy. Since only women are able to fall pregnant, only she gets the choice of abortion, in which the man has no say. Parenthood is something “both” have, and if one is allowed to refuse the responsibility, then the other is allowed.
This is not about pregnancy, you get full choice of the pregnancy part, this about parenthood, both should get choice of that because not only one person goes through it.
Women should only be allowed to make choices for “their” lives, and “their” bodies, they should not be allowed to make the choice of if a man becomes a father or not.
You get choice of two things, the pregnancy and your choice of if you’ll be a parent, two completely different things. Because a man can’t fall pregnant, he has no say in if the child is aborted or not, but since it is his responsibility, he is allowed to remove that obligation just like women are.
“when men fall pregnant, that’s when they can choose” Get out of here with that. This isn’t about pregnancy, it’s about parental choice. You get full choice of the pregnancy and if you will be a parent, just like the father should be allowed his choice to be a parent or not. You get full choice of your body, not his future.
Obviously there would need to be some sort of system, though. A system that makes it known that a man is under a financial abortion type of “contract”. A way that a woman can see if he will be able to avoid parental responsibility, and if she refuses to take that step and falls pregnant, then that would be her fault, just like it is apparently a man’s fault when he trusts a woman to be on a pill, a woman that is lying.
I think it should be some sort of accessed document, perhaps even a website that anyone can access. You would search in their name, and a few other details for the exact person, and then the woman can find out if he is under the financial abortion “contract”.
I think this is a great idea, and it would help the family construct as a whole with time. I also think child-support should not be allowed.
I think with financial abortion and no child support, after a while the family structure would be better. Women would have to actually think before falling pregnant with some guy she just met. She would have no benefits, more risk to survival, and so would be very careful, looking for a partner that will stay around to be a father.
A woman’s life would be far harder if she recklessly falls pregnant, and so she would have to be in a proper, commited relationship before she thinks about being a mother.
I think fatherlessness is just as much a problem made by mothers as it is the fathers’ faults, maybe even more so.
Think about it, if women had no safety net for falling pregnant, would she be so reckless with the guy she just met and knows nothing about?
Is it not her fault for falling pregnant to a guy that obviously isn’t a father material man? Ofcourse it is. Do women honestly think that becoming a father makes a scumbag a great human being? Ofcourse not.
A leopard can’t change its spots, yet women think that by becoming a father they will change.
Who is really to blame for a fatherless child?
Man – Shows he’s not a father material man, everything shows he isn’t, and it is obvious he is not ready to be a father
Or
Woman – Sees he is not a father material man, knows he isn’t ready to be a father, knows he is not comitted to such a life, yet picks him to fall pregnant with anyway, thinking he will change just because he’s a father.
Who is to blame for that?
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Child support is the main reason all of this is a factor in the 1st! If men didn’t have to sale they 1st born to the state with little to know chance of ever having a off month or GOD forbid there is a recession most of this would be a mute point. Men wouldn’t be running for the hills as often nor would so many woman be giving it away like candy because the greater possibility of doing it ALONE ALONE would linger and detour. I’m speaking about all the one night stands who years ago would have never been so often the case or people knowing each other all of two or three weeks. I know there are some that loved and then left just like those that don’t make it to the alter due to cold feet but those aren’t the men the exception should be for. Most woman all believe that when a man says he’s not ready for children or he doesn’t want children that he will change his mind when the child is born but that is often not the case and when the woman comes to realize this she’s pissed off, alone, and overwhelmed and that’s where CSSD greets you at the door with open arms!!! None of it is about the children, its the best interest of the state and the grant money they receive per case! Yay! All those who say well someones gotta pay cause they don’t want their tax dollars to pay to raise that child…guess what…when he CAN’T pay you are not only going to pay for the child, but you’re going to pay for the CSSD to track him down, you’re gonna, pay for the legal rep, pay for the court time, pay to enforce his drivers license suspension, and when all that fails to squeeze blood from a turnip, you’ll pay for his jail stay! So in short, yeah I’m pro-choice, I’m anti-govt in your business/personal affairs, and I’m for marriage before sex with consenting adults making decisions about their family units at the same time they sign for their marriage license and a re-up on their anniversary there after so that if their views change their agreement can be updated! Happy belated Vets day!
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I’m really not concerned with the money as long as nobody is killing the children. Sure, women should have full say over OUR bodies, but the bodies of our gestating children in utero are not OUR bodies.
P.S. I *BEGGED* my ex to just leave us when I was pregnant and he wanted me to have an abortion. He wouldn’t. I’m actually quite jealous of women who get a “love ’em and leave ’em” kinda guy.
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