Stanek weekend question: Can pro-choice soldiers ever be called heroes?
Last weekend InManibusDei and NytFury got into a Twitter debate about whether members of the military who support abortion can ever be called heroes.
A sample (I’ve undone the Twitter shorthand):
InManibusDei: I commend and thank pro-abort soldiers for their service. But they aren’t heroes.
NytFury: A soldier who is pro-choice will still value life enough to lay his life down. That is a hero.
I’d never pondered the point before and can see both sides. I told them I would ask you.
Your thoughts?
Jun.23, 2012 9:01 am |
Weekend question |
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
A tainted hero. They defend what life they feel is worthy.
Well, let’s put it this way. When a police officer responds to your call in the middle of the night and catches a burglar, serial killer, or rapist on your property, do you ask him/her what their stand on abortion is?
The traits that made my father an outstanding soldier in WW2 made him a terrible husband and father. Should we be any less thankful for his service?
The term “hero” has, like so many other words, become devalued. Not every person who simply puts on the uniform of one of the armed services is necessarily a hero. Actions of valor may result in one bring seen as such.
I would think that a pro-abort soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers should rightly be called a hero. And conversely, a pro-life soldier who serves competently but perhaps is never presented with the opportunity to act heroically should not automatically be called “hero” simply for wearing the uniform.
We need to restore the value of the words we speak.
Hmmm – let’s look to the Bible. Yep, plenty of flawed heros there. The most clear example might be David/Uriah, but there are plenty. I guess we should accept the fact that we humans are prideful and selfish to the point that none of us can be perfect.
Now, all we need is mercy and forgiveness.
Yes, people are not just one thing. While I would have a great deal of difficulty ever fully trusting a true ‘pro-choice’ person because sincerly holding a belief that it is ok to kill a living, innocent, human being makes one, in my opinion, by definitional mentally distrubed if not insane, that mental distruption would not necessarily keep them from preforming heroic deeds in other areas of their life. Just like, in reference specifically to soldiers, ones who make tragic, horiffic choices to kill, torture, or rape civilians (as soldiers of *every* army throughout time have rarely, occassionally, or frequently done) does not mean they can’t also fight valiantly and even heroicly to save other civilians, protect their fallen brethern, or turn the tide of a battle. There is good reason for the ‘tarnished’ hero architype. Pure heroes exist in theory and fiction, real heroes in real life always have unheroic, sinful, and even horrific portions to their character. The heroic cop is an abusive alcoholic father, the medal of honor vet is a murderer, the civil rights champion for racial rights is a sexist pig. Of course it’s not *always* that black and white. The hero soldier might just cheat on his taxes and the hero cop might cheat on his wife. But the point is being bad/sinful in one area doesn’t preclude you from being heroic in another.
Hi TLD,
Great point. Certainly plenty of heroic adulterers and murderers, past and present. I understand the great WW2 General George Patton was quite the lady’s man. Some historians argue Abe Lincoln was a racist.
Who we view as brutal another group of people may revere as a national hero
Certainly police have to rely on less than savory characters(snitches) to provide information and help keep the public safe.
Recently a respected and admired coach was convicted of child rape. How easily we can all be fooled by the “respectable”. Does anyone know his stand on abortion? Oh yes, he adopted children and ran a charity for children. How much more pro life can someone be?
Sorry folks, its the world we live in. Give up any expectations of perfection.
Hi John Drake,
Great post and an excellent point made.
Yes, they are a specific type of hero. No one is perfect. I’m with NytFury. LL
I have a feeling that if a pro-choice site even suggested that a soldier wouldn’t be a hero because they were pro-life, that people on this board would be yelling and screaming at the top of their lungs.
No?
EGV,
Good question and a valid point.
I’m inclined to think that they can be heroes. Honestly, most pro-choice people are just misguided, not evil or anything like that (although what they support is pure evil) and I wouldn’t think that being misguided precludes the possibility of being a hero.
Does anyone know where the members of Seal Team 6 stand on abortion?
How about all police officers and firefighters?
Since abortion is as old as the human race, does anyone know where all the leaders of the American Revolution, and the soldiers that served, stood on the issue of abortion?
Ex-GOP, hmm, apparently you don’t really read much from the pro-choice side. I don’t even seek out such and in the last few years I’ve read everything from “anti-choicers/anti-abortionists” can’t be: feminists, good parents, school teachers, social workers, doctors, or couselors to “anti-choicers/anti-abortionists”. are automatically: misogynistic, terrorists, women-haters, or violent zealots. Not to mention the commenters on pro-abortion sites stating or implying that all “anti-choicer”‘ should be ‘aborted’, inprisioned, arrested, beat, or have their property destroyed, children raped, raped themselves etc. “Pro-choice” media saying pro-lifers can’t be heroes would be rather tame in comparision to their usual rhetoric and barely worth mentioning.
Jespren -
And by throwing out the question and by having people say that pro-choice military people can’t be heroes, it seems to completely justify their screwed up beliefs?
Disagree?
So the various folks who stormed the cockpit from flight 93 – if any of them had pro-choice beliefs, are they now no longer heroes?
Hi Jespren,
I know where you are coming from on this, but let’s not resort to the same antics as our opponents.
Does someone else’s bias or hatred justify mine?
Not too long ago Jerry Sandusky was viewed as the model citizen. He had a child charity and he and his wife took in and adopted children in need.
We would view him as living up to pro life ideals of extending a hand to help children who have been cast aside.
The rest is history.
Apparently he is in danger in prison. After all, even convicts have standards.
Ex-GOP,
I think you’re arguing with yourself. The consensus so far seems to be one can be heroic without being perfect. At least in a specific heroic act.
Hans:
Though we’ve already seen “A Tainted Hero” – the question also had somebody who didn’t believe so – and I’m simply saying I’m surprised that the question was even asked.
Hi Hans,
I think EGV is raising a valid question in response to the post: “Can pro-choice soldiers ever be called heroes”? What if this same question was raised about pro life soldiers.
Personally I think its an absurd question. If my house is on fire, I don’t request only pro life firefighters and when we send men and women to war, we honor them and their sacrifice. Their religion, lack of, political beliefs, race, ethnicity, etc., are irrelevant.
They are just as maimed, traumatized, or dead. There is no difference in their sacrifice and dedication.
Eh. I don’t automatically assume military=hero anymore, and haven’t for a long time. I’ve known far too many of them to still be that naive.
Hi xalisae,
I’m sorry to say so but I have to agree with the point you are making.
I think there’s alot of people who get paid to do a job, and they get congratulated by every one for doing something that they get paid for-if you are getting paid for your courage (if you are a soldier)-your compassion (if you are involved in a charity work), your integrity (if you are a journalist)–of course these are all assumptions–all soldiers are not couragouse-all social workers are not compassionate-all journalists are not honorable–
We need to value the truth more-if we do not value the truth, we’ll chit-chat semantics and fetuses and embryo’s will die and our populations will continue to decline. Women will continue to become bitter because of the abortions they are having now as a practical right of passage-men will continue to become emasculated by their lack of reproductive rights.
If neither soldier nor police officer can defend the constitution because the SUPREME COURT DEAMED it outside of their JURISDICTION-then who are the rest of us to say one person or another person is not worthy of honor-we are all submitting under the tyranny of ignorance.
Especially when political pundits refuse to unveil certain truths–
as in: MITT ROMENY is Pro-abortion in instances of RAPE (just like the court that passed Roe Vs Wade) and most Christians are not going to vote for him because he is so well known for having lies as his MO. He will lose to Obma the debates will be humiliating for Republicans and even more so for catholics who endorsed him when he defends his stance on “Gay Unions,” (accepts federal endorsements of so-called unions) and Romney Care, which was the model for Obamacare in Massachusetts when it was founded in the 1990’s. The debates will be even more mortifying more so for pro-lifers when it comes out in the upcoming rabbit punching of Republican odds (the presidential debates will be a horror show) how pro-abortifacents he truly is, and how their endorsements helped him seal his re-definition of what it means to be pro-life before he burried any chance of stopping this Obamanation.
We haven’t found in Romney a candidate who will stop America’s funderal this 2012. Instead we opted for a man who will tell us which shovel to use and how exactly we are to dig our grave before we are ushered into what self pro-claimed “progressives” hope to be our eternal silence in their eternal utopia of thier “Brave New World.”
Even Cecil Richards is saying “Hey MItt-what’s up?” She knows he is willing to bat for both teams and doesn’t want to disenfranchise him by calling him pro-life, because she knows he has been so staunchly a women’s rights advocate on her companies behalf-and even SHE cannot believe his “conversion.” It is a JOKE to every body. Not even the Christians I know are voting for him. No one wants to be seen liking this guy except for other gray hair. No one came out to vote for him except for the baby boomer generation that was naive enough to think pornography and abortion would not affect them if they just kept it out of polite conversations. Now we are facing gay unions and population decline-and communism in America==all becase we put the judicial system and security blanket insurance policies in front of GOD and the Constitution.
I am not giving up on the Republican ticket or conceding this election to OBAMA.
HERE’S A FACT:
The Primaries are not supposed to reveal who got the most votes.
The Primaries reveal who will WIN>
Obama got more votes in the Primaries than all the Republicans combined. Who ever is on the Republican ticket-will HAVE to be able to take votes AWAY from OBAMA to WIN.
THAT’s A FACT. In Virginia-if you look at the Map-where the Republican vote wasn’t shattered and muddled by six candidates-RON PAUL WON districts away from Obama in the areas that were democrat. Because he unites. People trust him, –the people who care enough to really dig into the politics and don’t just listen to the edited youtube.com sound bytes. Watch Molotov Mitchell-learn about how the Pro-aboriton Republicans hijacked the primaries to pump Romney. It was a raping of the conservative values Ron Paul’s friend Ronald Reagan so championed and defined..
He is called a Libertarian, but what that means is his obeyance is to the US constitution. He is what no one else has been for the past 50 years-I know people don’t like his stance on war-I am pro-Zion, so no, do I don’t agree with everything he says, (FYI while on the topic of pro-abortion soldiers, in ISREAL the government PAYS FOR up to three abortions for any of their enlisted female soldiers)
And people believe the false interpretations on Ron Pauls Commitment to the Constitutionality of states rights.
They read lifenews.com who deams him a federalist-when in fact he the polar opposite of big government. His Sanctity of Life Act would reverse Roe Vs. Wade in all 50 states, and that includes peurto rico–but NO-most pro-lifers would prefer a candidate who says he wants to reverse Roe Vs. Wade while redefining keep abortion safe and legal. Well, MITT ROMENY, As Cecil Richards says, “You can’t have it both ways,” and that is a direct quote.
He is the biggest threat to the pro-life movement because he can recognize weakness in all the self-righteous occupations of our once great nations, and how does he do this? It’s so simple-he just follows the money. If we trusted on God instead of paper-we’d see very clearly the difference between a paid soldier and an American Heroe willing to fight for his country. Ron Paul is just that.
Who sits around even thinking up questions like this?
To those applicable: Ex-GOP querried that we’d go up in flames if the other side had such a discussion. I was pointing out that, no, we don’t, and in fact such discussions, and much worse, happen frequently. Since the term “hero” is ambigious and means different things to different people it is not weird or mean or bigoted or anything negative to hold a philosophical discussion on who can or can not be considered a “hero”. Having seen someone make the claim that pro-choice could not be hero Jill (or associate who wrote this post) put the question out there for us. So far everyone has disagreed with the initial person who started this rig-a-maroll. (Probably what Jill expected and wanted us to simply think and discuss on it). Since terms like “good parent” or “good teacher” or even “terrorist” are *also* subjective terms which have a variety of meanings it’s also perfectly normal and unoffensive for pro-abortionists to put forth their philisophical arguments as to why a pro-life person couldn’t be one. (Now trying to force criminality out of the pro-life stance such as lobbying for doctors to be required to preform abortion leaves the philisophical realm behind and certainly *is* both aggressively offensive and unconsitutional, as are threats made against the person or property of anyone who holds certain ideals) my point in listing all the things pro-abortionists already have publicized about us was not to excuse us or them, frankly no excuse is needed, they and we are free to delve into philisophical arguments on our viewpoint and mindset towards the world in general and any grouping in specific without feeling any need to make sure we don’t “offend” someone. Debating differences of opinion is not offensive, if someone wishes to take a theoretical position, drag it into their personal life without the authors intent or permission and claim offense to it, let them, that’s their business and their disfunction, not the one having the theoretical debate on abstracts.
In short I pointed out that we *don’t* get all bent out of shape everytime the pro-choice crowd goes on a viewpoint rant, if they choose to do so when we do it, that’s their own fault. When you aren’t victimizing someone you don’t bow and scrape and apologize when they declare themselves a victim, you laugh.
“Who sits around even thinking up questions like this”
Why waste time on this website if you don’t like the questions? Seriously. I think lots of websites discuss stupid things, so I never go on them.
Any soldier who deliberately hurts civilians isn’t a hero. If you rape, kill, beat, steal food, clothing, and housing from civilians, or otherwise mistreat them, you are not a hero, but a criminal, a coward, and a bully. If you die in battle later, you don’t deserve a hero’s burial or a hero’s honor.
Not everyone who joins the military has an honorable motive for doing so.
If you’re willing to die for this country, you’re a hero to me. I won’t ask you about your view on abortion, and I won’t value your service any less if I find out you’re a pro-abort later. I saw the debate between mani and nytfury, and I was saddened to think a hero could be devalued based on his/her vew on abortion, which we would have no way of knowing anyway.
Would the 4,000 preborn babies scheduled for abortion on Monday consider proabort soldiers heroes?
Yes or no?
I stand with those in the womb. They are defenseless and have no weapons to counter the sharp curettes, forceps and deadly chemicals seeking to destroy them.
If a soldier does not stand up for & protect the most vulnerable and innocent among us (but, indeed supports their execution), it is NOT appropriate to elevate them to the level of “hero” status.
InManibusDei
William Cope says:
June 23, 2012 at 2:47 pm
Would the 4,000 preborn babies scheduled for abortion on Monday consider proabort soldiers heroes?
Yes or no?
I stand with those in the womb. They are defenseless and have no weapons to counter the sharp curettes, forceps and deadly chemicals seeking to destroy them.
(Denise) Abortion used to be illegal. The law did not save the lives of the fetuses aborted by Jacqueline Smith, Barbara LoFrumento, Whoopi Goldberg, Marilyn Monroe, Jane Russell, Barbara Tuchman, Lillian Hellman, Anais Nin, Polly Bergin and many others.
The law is limited in what it can do, particularly in such an intimate area. Someone may believe that abortion should be legal without necessarily supporting it.
Eleanor Cooney has written, “When a woman is pregnant and doesn’t want to be, the force inside her wanting to be un-pregnant becomes a force equal to the nature that wants to keep her pregnant.” She had an abortion when it was unlawful and has written, “Never for one minute did I consider completing the pregnancy. It just wasn’t going to happen.”
I believe there is SOMETHING that COULD have prevented those abortions: preventing the pregnancies. Thus, I favor measures to prevent pregnancies in women who will not carry to term.
Thought: I wonder how many pro-abort soldiers would be willing to die solely to keep abortion legal. I’m not guessing too many, if any, which makes them major hypocrites.
Joan: “Who sits around even thinking up questions like this?”
You don’t like the question because it highlights the fact that beliefs and actions DO have consequences. Proaborts and liberals don’t like the concept of responsibility for one’s actions….”It’s always somebody else’s fault.”
OJ Simpson is no longer considered a football hero. Why?
Those who support dismembering, squishing beating hearts, & crushing skulls of innocent and defenseless victims in utero lose their right to be considered a hero.
Ask a proabort soldier if he/she is fighting for the right to life of those in the womb. By definition, they will say “no.” If anything, they will say they are fighting for the right of mothers to decide whether to kill their preborn baby or not.
You CANNOT separate one’s deeply-held convictions when assessing their overall character. Doing so removes responsibility for ones beliefs/actions (a liberal’s goal).
TO CALL A PROABORT SOLDIER A “HERO” IS TO SPIT IN THE FACE OF THE PREBORN.
To honor a proabort by designating them a hero is to DIShonor those little ones in the womb. You devalue the lives of innocents, by sweeping aside that someone supports killing them.
Would those scheduled for abortion on Monday, consider proabort soldiers heroes?
Yes or no?
There’s your answer. Through the eyes of innocents………………….
PS. Proaborts, there are consequences for your anti-life beliefs and actions. Get used to it. You get no free passes….even if you’re a soldier.
JustSnapd8: “I saw the debate between mani and nytfury, and I was saddened to think a hero could be devalued based on his/her view on abortion”
Dear JustSanpd8,
I am saddend to think you devalue those in the womb to the point of honoring their enemy (proaborts) with the disignation of “hero.”
As a supposed prolifer, YOU are SAD that I “devalue” a soldier because he supports executing little human beings in the womb?
Really?
EITHER YOU BELIEVE ABORTION IS THE INTENTIONAL AND BRUTAL KILLING OF AN INNOCENT HUMAN BEING…..OR YOU DON’T.
If you do, then you cannot minimize the support of such an act when elevating someone to the level of “hero.” It’s just not possible. It’s a serious matter that CANNOT be separated from the individual. Jerry Sandusky was a great offensive football coach…..but you can separate the evil he committed to children…so you cannot consider him a hero in football.
My allegiance is to innocents. Not to those who support killing them.
You, JustSnapd8, have made it clear where your allegiance lies.
And.
THAT is sad.
If I may, I’d like to see this question (and apparent prolife consensus) from the standpoint of a Planned Parenthood executive. Here is what I imagine the executive thinking while reading this blog page:
“Prolifers consider proabort soldiers ’heroes’? That belies they’re preaching that the abortion issues is serious a matter. If aborting a baby in the womb is as big a deal as prolifers preach, how can they call someone who supports the act a ‘hero.’ They’re not being consistent with their sentiments regarding the abortion act. Either it’s a grave and deadly matter, or it’s not. They seem situationally confused. And, I’m glad about that…”
Manibus-
I usually think you’re an abrasive jerk, but this time I’m on your side.
“You don’t like the question because it highlights the fact that beliefs and actions DO have consequences.”
No, I do like the question, because it demonstrates two things: one, many “pro-lifers” are navel-gazers who sit around contemplating stupid, inconsequential matters; two, in the process of doing so they often exhibit a tendency towards at best blithe indifference and at worst open contempt when dealing with subjects that most people treat delicately and respectfully (the Holocaust, slavery, sacrifices made by members of the armed forces).
Jespren: “So far everyone has disagreed with the initial person who started this rig-a-maroll”
PRESIDENT OBAMA IS COMMANDER AND CHIEF OF THE MILITARY. THAT MEANS YOU BELIEVE HE’S A HERO.
Interesting…………………….
”blithe indifference and at worst open contempt”
In other words, the way your types deal with the unborn.
Joan: “Prolifers often exhibit a tendency towards at best blithe indifference and at worst open contempt when dealing with subjects that most people treat delicately and respectfully (the Holocaust, slavery, sacrifices made by members of the armed forces).”
^^^ You forgot the “delicate” topic of those who support mutilating babies in the womb. ^^^
That’s what this topic is about.
You forgot someone……………the babies in the womb.
Again.
xalisae: “Manibus- I usually think you’re an abrasive jerk, but this time I’m on your side.”
I accept your “complisult” with a gracious “frile” (frown + smile). :)
Ex-GOP: “I’m surprised that the question was even asked.”
I’m not surprised you’re an ex-GOP.
Are you prolife?
Yes or no?
The short answer is yes, because being pro-abortion, while horrible, does not make you incapable of doing any good whatsoever.
William Cope, gee, it’s fun to actually read what someone wrote. I said being pro-abortion (or having any other evil on your conscious) does not negate the possibility of being a hero. I never said all military are heroes. (And even if I did there is a huge difference between servicemen, which Obama has never been, and civilian leadership) They’re not. Many will never do anything heroic, merely signing up for service is not enough in and off itself heroic. I’be yet to see Obama do anything remotely heroic, but his (many) negative personality traits doesn’t preclude him doing something heroic in the future. Interesting though, that you’d try to twist acknowledgement of *possibility* of action into actual heroism.
John Lewandowski: “The short answer is yes, because being pro-abortion, while horrible, does not make you incapable of doing any good whatsoever.”
_______
WWPD? (What Would Preborn Do?)
Would those 4,000 preborn babies scheduled for abortion on Monday agree w/ you that proabort soldiers are heroes? Yes or no?
(I’d say your answer fails the WWPD test)
By definition, aren’t prolifers supposed to speak on behalf of those in the womb?
WilliamCope – I thought that I got to be one of the most abrasive people on this board! Thanks for taking the title over from me!
Being a hero is about what a person DOES. If a person who has communist beliefs runs into a burning house and saves a child, their good deed is not negated because of their political views.
I don’t believe anybody is a hero simply because of a belief or a job – but if they do something that is actually heroic, you might like them more or less because of other beliefs – but they deserve to be viewed as a hero in the eyes of others because of that hero viewpoint.
I think a hard part about this question is that the word hero takes on a lot of different meanings.
I would almost phrase the question – “is a pro-choice soldier worthy of respect”
And to that, I would still answer ‘yes’.
And by the way – to echo Jespren – you need to read what he wrote. You twisted his words.
It’s cold comfort to a baby about to be slaughtered whether you thought Tiller was a hero or not-many people did and still do. It’s cold comfort to a baby about to be slaughtered whether you think proabort soldiers are heroes. What matters is what you do to stop the slaughter, regardless of the uniform being worn by the person who advocates their deaths as ‘choices’. We’re not going to be asked on judgement day whether we thought soldiers were heroes or not, we’re going to be asked what we did personally to stop the slaughter. Ultimately the only sins we’ll answer for are our own.
Joan, again, you’re free to go at any time.
InManibusDei – I’m not surprised you took the opportunity to attack me for expressing my view here. Just like I wasn’t surprised when you attacked me on twitter. You’re not only abrasive, you’re cruel and you’re hateful. You attack me because I have pets and no children, never considering that maybe i couldn’t have children. I’m done, I won’t let you rub salt in the wound.
Hero. A person admired for their noble deeds and courage. A person that is pro-abortion may perform noble deeds and display courage in a sphere distinct from issues involving unborn people. But can the term “hero” really apply when they exhibit such inconsistency? Being pro-abortion demonstrates a moral deficiency that, it seems to me, is antithetical to the entire concept of “hero”. No. It is not possible to apply the term “hero” to a person that advocates for the brutal murder of the defenseless.
If someone is actually “for” abortion, they would have to be against measures that limit problem pregnancies. Wouldn’t “pro-abort” have to mean being in favor of outlawing contraception?
After all, you can’t abort unless you have a pregnancy. Limit pregnancies and you limit abortions.
This question makes just as much sense as asking whether pro-life opponents in war can ever really be called enemies.
Keith – so you are saying that if any of the people on flight 93 that stormed the cockpit were pro-choice, they are not heroes? Or anybody who has died for this country – if they were pro-choice – they are not heroes?
Yes or no question…
Hi Jill 3:01PM
A soldier does his/her job. It isn’t what a soldier is willing to do, i.e. keep abortion legal, but what or he/she is ordered to do.
My father wasn’t a murderer but he lined up German POWS and gunned them down, as ordered to. I guess he was a murderer after all, or wasn’t he?
Pilots bombed cities that were full of civilians and refugees, because they were ordered to.
Our special forces will hunt down and kill on command, i.e. Somali pirates, Osama bin Laden. That’s their job. Thankfully we have exemplary men willing to do it.
They also want to stay alive as much as you and I do, but they are prepared to make the sacrifice. The same is true of police officers and firefighters.
A former police officer told me how he loathed snitches, but they provided valuable information so he looked the other way when they commited certain illegal acts. Did this make him a hypocrite?
I would ask some people on this thread, would any of you refuse help from PC paramedics, police officers, or firefighters?
Keith,
Did gunning down POWs and bombing cities full of refugees and civilians also demonstrate “moral deficiency”.
You tell me because I don’t have an answer.
GK Chesterton compared the heroism of Soldiers to the heroism of Religious Sisters. Both volunteer to the virtue of Obedience, always ready to lay down their lives, in a battle or in a lifetime of service, at the direction of another.
But when I discover that Soldier or a Religious Sister believes that it is okay to take innocent life for the convenience of one who is already born…. I can no longer see the heroism in their lives. Their virtue is robbed of valor.
Hi Del,
Can you give me an answer to my 6:49PM post?
No one forced my father into the 101st airborne. He was told to gun down unarmed men and did it. Was this any less taking innocent lives? Yes they were soldiers, the “enemy”. Taking their lives made it far easier than providing for them or guarding them.
War is damned dirty business. Any thoughts? As I said, I have no answer.
Hi EGV, 6:06PM
I suppose we should no less ask what their religious affiliations, or lack of were, their sexual orientations, whether any had ever commited any crimes, been caught driving drunk, slept around on their spouses, etc..
When this has all been determined and we are satisfied these people were only the most exemplary of human beings, like myself and everyone else on this thread, then maybe we can consider them heroes.
Most certainly not until then.
So the various folks who stormed the cockpit from flight 93 – if any of them had pro-choice beliefs, are they now no longer heroes?
Pro-aborts would not be as likely to care about others. It would depend why they stormed the cockpit. It they stormed the cockpit to save other peoples lives then they are heroes.
Dear JustSanpd8,
I didn’t attack you for expressing your view here. I disagreed w/ you post. Interestingly enough, you didn’t address my concerns. At all. You emoted (Just snapped) and ran.
Here was my post to you again for your review:
I am saddend to think you JustSanpd8 devalue those in the womb to the point of honoring their enemy (proaborts) with the designation of “hero.”
As a supposed prolifer, YOU are SAD that I “devalue” a soldier because he supports executing little human beings in the womb?
Really?
EITHER YOU BELIEVE ABORTION IS THE INTENTIONAL AND BRUTAL KILLING OF AN INNOCENT HUMAN BEING…..OR YOU DON’T.
If you do, then you cannot minimize the support of such an act when elevating someone to the level of “hero.” It’s just not possible. It’s a serious matter that CANNOT be separated from the individual. Jerry Sandusky was a great offensive football coach…..but you can separate the evil he committed to children…so you cannot consider him a hero in football.
My allegiance is to innocents. Not to those who support killing them.
You, JustSnapd8, have made it clear where your allegiance lies.
And.
THAT is sad.
Mary: “I would ask some people on this thread, would any of you refuse help from PC paramedics, police officers, or firefighters?”
______
That is not the question this blog page is addressing.
Above, Jill Stanek quoted me saying “I commend and thank pro-abort soldiers for their service. But they aren’t heroes.”
The question at issue is should proabort soldiers be elevated to level of “hero.”
Keith and Del are spot on.
MoronicQuotes is off: “It’s cold comfort to a baby about to be slaughtered whether you think proabort soldiers are heroes. What matters is what you do to stop the slaughter, regardless of the uniform being worn by the person who advocates their deaths as ‘choices’.”
Valuing human life enough to have standards for ‘hero’ designations makes people accountable for their behavior and beliefs. “Going soft” on proaborts by saying they can be called a hero even if a proabort only enables and encourages their lack of accountability.
No. Saying, “In order to rise to the level of a hero, stop supporting the slaughter of innocents….this is a VERY important and serious matter” sends a prolife message…..not a passive culture of death message.
William Cope,
Would YOU accept help from PC police officers, firefighters, and paramedics? When calling 911, would you specify absolutely no PC emergency responders?
Woud you consider my father a hero, he did receive recognition for bravery at the Seige of Bastogne in WW2, or morally deficient since he gunned down German POWS? BTW, I have no clue what he thought of abortion. He died when I was a child.
How about the members of Seal Team 6 who took out Bin Laden? Were they heroic or must you know their stands on abortion first? What if they don’t have one?
Ex-Gop,
Jerry Sandusky’s organization probably did help some underpriviliged kids overcome the odds. Should Sandusky be considered a hero?
I’d say no. He’s a pedophile. I won’t call a pedophile a hero. Will you?
After Mass tonight, I noticed the school’s flagpole had a dedication plaque in honor of President John F. Kennedy. The dedication date was 1964. Knowing what we know today Kennedy, do you think the Catholic school would honor him as a hero? I sure hope not. “But he did some great things!”…..so what……his bad things bumped him off the “hero” track. I’m thankful for the good things he did, but I won’t call him a hero. That’s how it works.
Just ask OJ Simpson why he no longer has his Heismann trophy.
Beliefs and behaviors matter…………….including when it comes to the support for abortion.
People who know me realize I’m strongly opposed to abortion. They know I don’t consider proaborts heroes. They know I’m CONSISTENT in how important the issue is. I don’t poo-poo it…..even for a proaborts soldiers.
Ex-Gop: “I don’t believe anybody is a hero simply because of a belief or a job – but if they do something that is actually heroic, you might like them more or less because of other beliefs – but they deserve to be viewed as a hero in the eyes of others because of that hero viewpoint.”
__________
Let’s flip the scenerio a bit, Ex-Gop.
Hitler outlawed abortion.
I don’t consider him a hero for prolife movement b/c he believed in (and ordered) genocide of Jews.
Do you consider Hitler a hero for outlawing abortion? I bet the preborn would be thankful their lives were spared by Hitler’s ruling, but would be remiss to call him a “hero.”
I didn’t say they were heroes, Cope. I said it doesn’t matter if people consider them heroes or not-opinions aren’t saving any babies, and neither is sitting on Twitter all day. Get up off your a$$ and do something about it-don’t recall seeing you out there this morning, or any morning. Talk is cheap. It’s action that counts.
Mary,
Of course I would accept help from proabort policemen, firemen & paramedics. If they did a nice job I’d thank them, pat them on the back with an “attaboy!”, and give them a glass of icewater. If I discovered they are proaborts, I’d factor that into my assessment of their characters and wouldn’t consider them “heroes.”
Del said it well in his post above: “But when I discover that Soldier or a Religious Sister believes that it is okay to take innocent life for the convenience of one who is already born…. I can no longer see the heroism in their lives. Their virtue is robbed of valor.”
My mom looooved President Kennedy. He was Catholic, eloquent, cared for poor, etc. When his chronic philandering was made public, she found him dispicable….no longer a hero.
Beliefs and actions matter. There’s this lil’ thing called “accountability.” Liberals try to ignore it. I won’t…..especially when it involves those in the womb in danger of execution.
MoronicQuotes: “I didn’t say they were heroes, Cope. I said it doesn’t matter if people consider them heroes or not-opinions aren’t saving any babies, and neither is sitting on Twitter all day. Get up off your a$$ and do something about it.”
The Stanek Weekend Question is about proaborts rising to level of heroes.
Yes, it matters if prolifers consider proaborts heroes. It sends the wrong message. It not only disrespects the unborn, but it says the abortion issue is not that important.
Your ENTIRE BLOG is about messages related to abortion. You focus on the moronic things proaborts say. My message to prolifers re proabort soldier ‘heroes’ is BE CONSISTENT! If abortion is a serious violation to mankind, how do you call a supporter of such an evil act a hero? It’s either very important, or it’s not.
Likewise, either YOU believe prolife messages are important, or they aren’t. Based on YOUR blog, you seem to find messaging important.
Which is it?
P.S. I saved two preborn baby boys recently. The mother of one has already named her son ”Kayden.” Don’t worry…I’m off my a$$. It’s you who needs to reconsider the importance of CONSISTENT messaging.
“Greater love hath no man than he lay down his life for his friends.”
Yes, pro-choice, gay, pro-life, straight… they’re all heroic. It takes guts to stand out on the tip of the spear and suffer the violence that war does to men and women’s bodies and souls. It does us no good to denigrate their courage and sacrifice because they may be laboring under some serious misperceptions about the identity and status of the human embryo and fetus.
I don’t know how many of the thousands of service men and women who died or were maimed in the War on Terror were pro-choice, but their sacrifices are not diminished a bit. If one talks with a combat vet and is lucky enough to engage them in why they fight, ultimately it’s for the soldier next to them.
These are unrelated issues.
Some Union soldiers fought for union, some for abolition, some for personal glory, and some because they were ashamed not to when all of the other men in town enlisted. Every one of them who marched into the teeth of a canon or line of rifles pointed at them point blank was equally courageous and heroic, regardless of the purity of their motives or beliefs.
The same holds true today, 150 years later.
Cope,
Of course I consider them important. I also realize that’s not all there is to activism, and I don’t have to stoop to demonizing other prolifers to achieve it, either. You are more interested in flinging insults online and picking fights and assuming you won than you are the unborn. Attacking other prolifers isn’t going to win the day, it just puts you on the same level as the proabort trolls. I’ve many times seen you attack other prolifers without reason, which renders you useless to the movement. Goodbye.
Cope and Other$,
I’m back from a protracted ab$ence a$ moderator. Plea$e refrain from offen$ive language which i$ made no le$$ offen$ive by the clever u$e of $ymbol$ in$tead of letter$. Thank$
Cope:
How is putting down JustSnapd8 for not having children because she’s barren ‘prolife messaging’? Please don’t drink and tweet.
I’m done here anyway Gerald, so no problem, and Cope will soon run out of targets here. Have a good one, folks.
William Cope,
The firefighter or policeman/woman who just put their lives on the line for you, possibly saving your life, you would thank with an “attaboy”. The paramedic who just enabled you to survive, well here’s a glass of ice water. How hypocritical that you are only too ready to take advantage of their courage and abilities to benefit yourself or someone you love, and then deciding afterward they aren’t quite fit to do so.
Kennedy did serve in the military, and I will never take that from him. No, like all of us he was not an outstanding human being, but I will give credit where it is due. I think as a president he was mediocre at best, and that has nothing to do with his extramarital antics. If he hadn’t been killed he wouldn’t be viewed with such adulation.
How interesting you avoid the questions I put to you concerning the military actions of my father and Seal Team 6.
Hi Gerard 8:58PM
An outstanding and eloquent post. Thank you.
Absolutely these are unrelated issues. ALL of our servicemen and women, since the founding of this country, have deserved nothing less than our respect and gratitude.
William Cope -
I think Gerard sums it up great.
I also believe it is worth noting that Sandusky actually molested about a dozen people. This is much different than a belief in something. Your comparison works much better if you were talking about somebody who was an abortion doctor, or had many abortions themselves.
Gerard, I only referred to what MoronicQuotes posted. Please be fair aud use the primary offender’$ name when pointing out individuals by name. It would be much appreciated.
William,
Fair enough. My apologies.
Dear Gerard,
WWPD?
What would the preborn do?
Would they consider proabort soldiers heroes? Would they nod their heads in unison affirmatively to your praise for proabort soldiers?
If you were scheduled to be executed - b/c you were considered an “inconvenience” - and were told a soldier supported your killing, would you consider that soldier a “hero.”
Yes or no?
I appreciate your attempt at addressing the issue from a “politically correct” standpoint (we mustn’t make proaborts angry). I do remind you that the preborn don’t need political correctness. Why? Politically, it’s okay to kill them in America. Those in the womb need people bold enough to say the truth.
As a prolifer, you claim to speak on behalf of the unborn.
So, I ask again: Please answer the question from THEIR perspective, and hold the ”politically correct” tack for a moment.
TIA.
No Mary. Not ALL servicemen are heroes. And being pro-abort makes it a lot less likely.
Gerard: “they’re all heroic.”
Unconditional heroism doesn’t exist in my world. It’s earned. And, based partly on character & integrity.
Gerard: “It takes guts to stand out on the tip of the spear and suffer the violence that war does to men and women’s bodies and souls.”
Nazi’s went to battle. So did those who wished for slavery to continue.
Gerard: ”It does us no good to denigrate their courage and sacrifice”
I’m not. I said I thank and commend them. I just won’t elevate the all the way to Hero status.
Gerard: ”(proabort soldiers) may be laboring under some serious misperceptions about the identity and status of the human embryo and fetus.”
I’m discussing hero or not hero. Explaining away why someone may be a proabort is not helpful to the conversation. Either their support for executing preborn babies is gravely wrong, or it’s not.
Gerard: “I don’t know how many of the thousands of service men and women who died or were maimed in the War on Terror were pro-choice, but their sacrifices are not diminished a bit.”
The discussion is related to “known” proabort soldiers. They did not sacrifice for those in the womb. In fact, as proaborts they supported killing innocents. Their sacrifice is diminished compared to a prolife soldier – he/she ALSO fought for those in the womb.
Gerard: “These are unrelated issues”
A proabort is a proabort is a proabort. You can’t selectively “ignore” it when convenient.
Why?
Proaborts catch the INCONSISTENCY and realize your views of abortion are only contextual…..making it appear unimportant & lacking urgency.
Gerard: “Every one of them who marched into the teeth of a canon or line of rifles pointed at them point blank was equally courageous and heroic”
Do you consider Nazi soldiers heroes? You seem to consider those entering the battlefield heroes. Heroism does not involve characterological factors? I think it does.
Proaborts don’t need anymore “excuses” for why they do what they do. They need to be held accountable.
Cat got your tongue, Cope? How is putting down a barren, prolife woman for not having kids ‘prolife messaging’? Ready, go.
Mary: “ALL of our servicemen and women, since the founding of this country, have deserved nothing less than our respect and gratitude.”
I respect the work they’ve done, and give gratitude for their courage. But, I won’t elevate them to the level of hero.
I don’t believe proaborts are heroes. That flaw is SERIOUS, and excludes them from the list.
They can change that by no longer supporting the dismemberment and brutal killing of helpless human beings in the womb.
Their choice to be excluded as hero isn’t static. They can finally respect human life….ALL human life.
Why buy the cow when the milk is free.
MornicQuotes: “How is putting down a barren, prolife woman for not having kids ‘prolife messaging’?”
Is she childless and barren? How do you know? I don’t know that. I only know she only shows attention to her 12? dogs and cats on her profile.
What were you saying about “messaging”?
I know because she’s a friend of mine IRL. How is putting her down for being barren prolife messaging? Can’t answer?
Also, she said so in the comments above, which everyone here saw. Learn to read.
Mary: “How interesting you avoid the questions I put to you concerning the military actions of my father and Seal Team 6.”
I don’t know enough details (nor do you) to give an educated opinion on your father’s military situation.
What I’ve said about ten different times today, also holds true for Seal Team 6. They executed their mission w/ courage, valor and skill. I would consider them heroes. If I were to find out one, two, three of them are proaborts…..those Seals would be bumped IMMEDIATELY from my hero status. No questions asked.
Why?
They SUPPORT the brutal killing of 4,000 preborn babies/day in America.
They don’t deserve hero status w/ a sentiment like that existing within their being.
If I found out they later that these same proabort soldiers became prolife….they would regain their heroe status.
It’s simple………
I won’t honor proaborts with hero status of any kind. Ever.
It’s not deserved.
Likewise, I refuse to send the message that proaborts deserve hero status (as opposed to Gerard).
I have standards.
“Unconditional heroism” is for passive types. Prolifers by definition cannot be passive types. Passive-type prolifers are PLINOs (Prolife In Name Only).
It appears some “prolifers” need to tighten it up a bit. Maybe they should try to be “heroes” for the unborn.
Just a thought……………….
And…crickets. Thanks for provng my point, Billy Boy. Night, folks. Don’t feed the trolls.
ts,
I didn’t say they were all heroes. I said they deserved nothing less than our respect and gratitude.
MoronicQuotes: “she said so in the comments above, which everyone here saw. Learn to read.”
Oh, you mean when she said ”…never considering that MAYBE i couldn’t have children”?
MoronicQuotes: “And…crickets”
Crickets are used for fish bait. Likewise, I’m not taking your bait.
You’re trying to put words in my mouth. I commented on her profile being very pet oriented (some noteworthy number like 12 dogs and cats).
I had no idea if she has kids, or if she is barren. Today she said she has no kids. And, she says people should consider that “maybe” it’s because she couldn’t have them. ?
I dunno, maybe a comment about human babies in her profile would help us know she cares about human babies, too. Ya know?
Messaging.
William Cope,
Good to know that you have no problem with our men and women serving, but….., if you find out later. Rank hypocrisy.
I know plenty about my father’s service, thank you very much, so kindly answer my question.
Yeah. My first interaction with the guy was him attacking me for not being Christian on Twitter.
So, a soldier who kills can be a hero, so long as it isn’t a fetus. Fetuses are the phallic symbols of the religious right.
1 Can people do heroic things and not be called heroes? In this question of semantics lies my answer to the initial question.
2 Let’s try to look at it this way … The “John Wayne Gacey clown defense” (horrible serial murderer, clown who made kids happy) when applied to Planned Parenthood is laughable. PP does help some people, truthfully, but we wouldn’t even begin to think the good they do legitimizes their existence.
Where extending this analogy breaks down is at the point where soldiers who have done heroic things, for instance died to save someone, also stand by the phrase that “though I would never have, be a part of an abortion myself I believe it is a woman’s right to choose”, and further would not be an abortionist … Many of us then feel that “political views” are different from actions. I agree, BUT IF SOMEONE IS UNWiLLING TO HAVE or DO AN ABORTION, THEY SHOULD GET SOME COURAGE and TELL PEOPLE IT’S WRONG!! Unless you are so sure it is right that you are willing to dismember a “pregnancy” yourself … Let’s not chalk it up as benign political views. If they are benign, then they are fake. It’s all or nothing.
3 Chief of sinners though I be … We are not perfect. Heroes aren’t perfect. BUT there is a difference between knowing our faults and actively embracing a bad standard.
4. I myself have no answer to this yet. I have a hard time saying someone who took a bullet for a friend, who later was reported to have said he is pro- choice, is not a hero at all. But compare this to a person who was an abortion advocate. How about an abortion doctor? How about a child molester? An “actual” murderer? Where do we draw the line?
I think William Cope needs to consider his Bible more. Many of the mighty men of God, the heroes of the Bible were very fallen and sinful creatures. Being sinful in one area of life, however horrific that sin may be, simply does not preclude you from doing something heroic and therefor from being a hero. David slew Goliath, a heroic deed if every there was one, he led the fledgling Hebrew kingdom to many victories and was and is remembered as a hero. He was also a murderer, an adulterer, and a fornicator. Samson heroicly killed thousands of the enemies of God, he is a figure to make the halls of history tremble, and he was an egotistical, self-righteous debauched adulterer whose ‘faith’ (up until the very end) was in his own physical attributes not in God. Abraham was a liar, an adulterer, and disowned one of his own sons at a young age because his wife told him to. Noah, the only righteous one of God found to repopulate the earth stepped off the Ark and promptly got himself so drunk he paraded around naked. Peter denied the Lord 3 times. I could go on for pages. Even though people do horrible things it doesn’t keep them from doing *other* things that may be heroic. Herosim is also not a fully covering cloak, being a hero for something doesn’t forgive or excuse other actions, it just means that for that action, for someone, they are a hero. People can be many things. George Washington is a national hero, but he was also a traitor to his sworn king. Jefferson helped form a land of freedom while he owned slaves. Amazing Grace was written while it’s author struggled to survive a storm on a slave ship he was employed upon. Was he a hero to the slaves in the hold or to those killed by being tossed overboard, who died in the hold, or later killed in slavery? Of course not. But he was a hero to many others as he pushed for abolishment of slavery in Britian. Is the pro-abortionist (soldier, firefighter, average citizen, etc) a hero to those that die in the womb, to the women who are wounded by “legal and safe” abortions? No. Ironically, however, many other people exist. And they very well may be a hero to the little civilian girl they saved during the war, the family they drug out of a burning building at great risk to themselves, to the child they jumped in the pool to save from drowning. Etc. It doesn’t excuse their crimes (of thought or deed), but nor do those crimes dismiss other actions. God says no one is sinless, all have fallen, and *any* sin is sufficient to damn you. If you can not be a hero because of one sin (supporting and/or participating in the murder of the unborn in this instance) then the logically consistant view holds that *any* sin is sufficient to remove you from hero status, which would mean the term ‘hero’ is a purely theoretical construct that no one can obtain. A liar is just as grossly fallen, just as much a sinner, and just as deservant of damnation as the serial killer. We, as equally fallen humans, find some sins more repugnant than others, we try to rate and categorize it to make ourselves feel better about our sins in relation to others. But it’s all just more lies we tell ourselves. Sin is disobeying God, we’re all equally guilty of it. You can’t sit there and claim righteousness over a pro-abortionists because their sin is somehow greater than yours. We are *all* equally damned outside of Christ’s grace, and we are *all* equally capable of both horror and heroism.
Cope –
“I had no idea if she has kids, or if she is barren. Today she said she has no kids. And, she says people should consider that “maybe” it’s because she couldn’t have them. ?
No, you had no idea, nor did you care. You chose to attack me because I have pets, and no human children. To you, that makes me beneath you, someone worth bullying. You’re so stuck on yourself, you don’t give a hoot about other people.
I dunno, maybe a comment about human babies in her profile would help us know she cares about human babies, too. Ya know?”
And your profile says what about human babies? Nothing. Your twitter profile, InManibusDei, says nothing at all.
I know many, Heroes, who gave their time and treasure to protect the babies in the womb…
I am more concerned what God finds in my heart and what He will call me in my one on one meeting! That is what will truly matter for eternity!
Abortion is the killing of an individual made in His image. Period!
I thought I stated my position pretty clearly.
“No. It is not possible to apply the term “hero” to a person that advocates for the brutal murder of the defenseless.”
As for “gunning down POW’s”, it has certainly happened. It is immoral, it is wrong, a violation of international law, and, simply, an act of murder. As the United States carried out such atrocities, we became what we despised. The fact that an action is carried out by the US military does not make it right, or moral.
This is getting away from the original question, though I am attempting to respond to a query, so will ask the moderator’s tolerance: War is never moral. War is never “right”. It results from the moral and intellectual failures of everyone involved. Well, we are all sinful people thus, from a Christian perspective, our need for a Savior.
For the purpose of carrying out a moral mission, I think our military would do well to end the non-stop interventions and invasions overseas, and come home to defend the lives of the 1 million plus people that are slaughtered here in the United States every year.
Jesperen: “Is the pro-abortionist (soldier, firefighter, average citizen, etc) a hero to those that die in the womb, to the women who are wounded by “legal and safe” abortions? No. Ironically, however, many other people exist. And they very well may be a hero to the little civilian girl they saved during the war, the family they drug out of a burning building at great risk to themselves”
If you are prolife, you’re supposed to speak on behalf of the unborn. You’re not to be one of the “other people.” Unfortunately, you are speaking for the “other people,” and not the unborn.
As a prolifer on matters of abortion, you are to take the stance from the eyes of those in the womb. Again, you aren’t. In this scenerio, you become “one of the other people.”
Inconsistency damages credibility of the prolife movement, and only harms babies in utero.
________
Jesperen: ”If you can not be a hero because of one sin (supporting and/or participating in the murder of the unborn in this instance) then the logically consistant view holds that *any* sin is sufficient to remove you from hero status, which would mean the term ‘hero’ is a purely theoretical construct that no one can obtain. You can’t sit there and claim righteousness over a pro-abortionists because their sin is somehow greater than yours.”
I’m prolife. That’s why I can’t call a proabort a hero.
Can a pro-choice person be a hero? Yes.
Every hero is not a saint. I think there are different types of heroes. Some are heroes for a heroic act. Some are heroes for their heroic qualities. Both are still heroes to me.
Every day, sinful people do wondrous things that give glory to God. May God bless all heroes and convert them to a saintly life full of virtue.
Hey, William Cope, does this conversation do anything to help the preborn? No it does not.
Keith 10:31am
But its war and this was a direct order. Also the POWs could not be supervised or fed, and certainly not turned loose. Had the situation been turned around, my father would have been the gunned down POW.
He received a medal for his service.
War is very dirty business and its evils are as old as the human race.
World isn’t so neatly black and white, is it Keith?
JDC says: “Hey, William Cope, does this conversation do anything to help the preborn? No it does not.”
Yes. It demonstrates the seriousness of ones proabort beliefs, and how such anti-life sentiments have consequences.
Jespren,
In the Bible David repented.
William Cope,
Do you own any pets?
William Cope, no, as a pro-life person it is my duty to look at things through GOD’s eyes, not elevating one person over another but *everyone* equally. I do not believe abortion to be wrong because I view it through the unborn eyes and ignore others, I view it as wrong because all people are created equal and it is sinful to murder *anyone*. I do not speak for the unborn only, but for *all* humanity, for if human rights do not belong to all humans than they belong to none. I am fully consistant, all murder (the intentional killing of a human being who is innocent of any capital crime and who is not placing another’s life in emminent danger of death) is wrong, all sin is wrong, and it is all equally irrelevent to what they might do in the moments they aren’t sinning. If you view the unborn above other humans and do not take others into equal account then *you* are the one being inconsistent.
Abortion is murder, period. There is never an excuse, there is never a reason, their is never a necessity. Every single abortion ever proformed is an affront to God who commanded us not to murder. There are real consequences, both short and long term to everyone involved in every abortion. And those consequences are neither covered nor paid for by heroic actions. But the exact same thing is equally said of every single sin in existance. Inconsistance harms any movement, but you are the one being inconsistant, rating people’s goodness and ability to do goodness by your own ranking of their sinful actions. If you were a secular pro-life person perhaps this would be acceptable, it is only natural for a fallen human to fall prey to such a defense mechanism of ‘well I’m not *as bad* as that person, at least I haven’t commited *that* sin’, but for someone who claims Christianity such an inconsistance is blatantly against God’s Word, which clearly shows sin is sin and all humans fall into one of two categories, dead to sin or alive in Christ. The abortionist is no more henious than the thief, than the abuser, than the liar, than the blasphemer, etc *all* have sinned and are equal in the eyes of the Lord. One sin is all it takes. Trying to set up a hiearchy just makes you a hippocrit and makes it more difficult for you to witness to those still traped in sin, it’s why non-christians see Christians as being judgemental, because som many present this front of ‘my sin isn’t as bad as your sin’, which is just self-righteous bs. To be consistant with equal rights for *all* humanity and equality under a loving God who seeks to bring people to forgiveness the playing field *must* be offered forth as equal. In this instance meaning either *everyone* is capabale of a heroic act (making them a hero to someone) or *no one* is. The world of a pro-life person should not consist of ‘unborn’ and ‘others’, it consists of ‘everyone’.
“The abortionist is no more henious than the thief”
You must be smokin something.
Jespren: “I do not speak for the unborn only, but for *all* humanity, for if human rights do not belong to all humans than they belong to none.”
The unborn have no voice. Prolifers must be their voice. I am not stripping proabort soldiers of their human rights by not considering them heroes.
___________
Jesper: “The abortionist is no more henious than the liar.”
Good luck convincing people how henious abortion is. You minimize it in word, and in calling those who support the act heroes. The unborn deserve a better voice standing up for them.
Would you consider a soldier who openly supports terrorism a hero? Yes or No?
__________
Jesperen: “Abortion is murder, period.”
You don’t act like it when you call those who support murder heroes. There’s an obvious disconnect in what you say. OJ simpson is no longer a football hero….for obvious reasons.
Steve says:
June 24, 2012 at 12:44 am
So, a soldier who kills can be a hero, so long as it isn’t a fetus. Fetuses are the phallic symbols of the religious right.
Children in the womb are innocent and non-combatants. Even in wartime, intentionally killing innocent persons is considered a war crime.
I don’t get your reference to phallic symbols or even to the religious right. The pro-life movement is full of persons who respect the dignity of human life. We are people who insist that killing is never a solution to any problem. We span the political and cultural spectrum from right to left and from devout to atheist.
It is true that Christian faith is what urges many of us us to action against injustice. But even if we all lost our Christian faith, we would still know a child in the womb deserves protection from violence. We don’t need religion to tell us this.
Mary: “Following orders” was not considered an adequate defense for German soldiers convicted at Nuremberg. Not all orders are legal. Not all orders have to be followed.
Were the German soldiers that killed American POW’s at Malmedy heroes or murderers?
Perhaps the problem with the concept of pro-choice heroes is to be found in our willingness and desire to apply the term, to see it embodied, perhaps for the purpose of shielding our eyes from the fallen human condition. A way of finding some hope in ourselves.
“Hero” is an ideal, a condition for which we should strive. A condition that exemplifies integrity, honor, valor, etc. Yet, due to our human failings, it is, perhaps, a state which can never be achieved. Perhaps we are too willing to apply the term “hero” and thus impart to it not only noble qualities but also the baser qualities common to all people.
Women in the military are being raped and are getting abortions to cover-up that they were raped!!!
And if women are getting abortions in the military, its because the military is forcing it on them!!!
William Cope,
Politically correct??? ME????????
Well, I guess the pro-life movement gas its share of wing nuts too, and you seem to be a card-carrying member with your own looney outpost.
Look, pal, I’ll save you a good deal of time. Yes, there were heroic soldiers who fought in EVERY army and navy in the second world war. Being a hero means putting your life on the line for the guy with you in the same foxhole. Did it ever enter into your small mind that most soldiers in that war were conscripts? Probably not, because you don’t exactly come off as the brightest candle on the altar.
You’re a hard-hearted hack who views the world through the convenient prism of the one sin that you would never, ever commit. That makes it easy to strut around here puffed up and proud. So let me ask you this…
What about the sins you HAVE committed? Do we determine heroism also by whether or not people support the sort of behavior that you have indulged in?
Jill asks a good question on this thread. My answer is simple. Heroes are flawed human beings (because none of us except you and Jesus are perfect). Heroes put their lives on the line for others, especially their comrades in arms. They sacrifice all so that others might live, and yes, perhaps there are soldiers who’ve never heard the truth about the human identity and status of the embryo and fetus.
If all a soldier does is put it on the line for the person next to them, they’re a hero. They don’t need the whole mom, apple pie and the flag gig. That’s extra, and the more the better. But simply going into harm’s way is sufficient. One needn’t be a Sir Galahad. A simple, flawed citizen soldier suffices.
As for the pro-life component, it’s self-righteous clowns such as yourself who do more harm to us than the other side does. Now, William, if you would prefer civil discourse, I’m up for that. If you persist in coming at me and others here with your puerile name-calling, I might be provoked to tell you what I really think of you.
Keith 3:08am
About the German soldiers at Malmedy. Probably no more murderers than what my father did. War isn’t a Hollywood production or John Wayne movie. Its horrific decisions that must be made and are. Good or bad is in the eye of the beholder and what side you’re on.
So how about the pilots that fire bombed Dresden and incinerated thousands of German civilians? They were following orders. The Germans who bombed London. They were following orders. Our pilots who bombed Hanoi, they were following orders. Its war keith and its very dirty.
Which orders should not have been followed? The orders to invade Iraq? Any of the above mentioned situations?
Hi Gerard,
An outstanding post. I’m sure we all have plenty in our pasts that we wouldn’t proudly post, or for that matter even like to think about. I hope William Cope will realize the damage we do with our presumed sanctimony. The world is many shades of gray, and so are all of us.
Thank you Gerard for saying it like no one else could.
What a beautiful question. This clearly shows the twisted, messed up thought process of the pro-life mind. Questioning the heroism of soldiers, firefighters, and police officers based on their support of women’s rights. Classic. When debating abortion, I will gladly print this post and the responses to show the absolute moronic thought process held by all of you on the pro-life side!!!
You evidently didn’t read the comments. Though I’m not surprised that ad hominems would be the best you have.
Sorry to burst your bubble Gerard but just “being in the armed services does not qualify you as a hero. And as a moderator you you should lay off the name calling. At least within the posts where you are stating that you are a moderator.
If you post substance that should be enough.
JustSnap8d,
I am not defending William Cope in any attacks on you. If he came on this site and was abusive I would let him have it too.
Of course pro-choice soldiers can be heroes. People holding all kinds of different political viewpoints can be heroes. I hate that you all eat meat, but I don’t deny that carnivore soldiers can be heroes. Lol, this is a ridiculous question. Gerard, Mary, and Ex argued this a lot better than I can.
Hi Folks,
(It’s been a while!) This wee bit of seemingly trite thought can lead to some wild (and profound) thoughts. I think we’re off-track a bit. A ‘hero’ is an ideal of someone who performs an activity worth emulating at least vicariously. Here’s the rub: in abortion there is zip to emulate, but many rabid feminists would hold the contrary view. However, both would frame the activity as heroic’ and thereby significant.
Let’s say 6 adults were attempting to escape from a certain death. One of the ladies recently had a child. The babe – as all babes – will cry and reveal the group’s where-a-bouts. Does she (as distasteful as it is) have the ‘right’ to kill HER child?
The listing of just who is perceived as a hero is interesting. Can a disabled person ever be your hero – or a homeless person, or, drug addict; or, a wee babe? Are they (and we all) not significant?
truthseeker – Thank you, I never thought you were defending Cope. Of course I could have missed something. :) Cope attacked me on twitter, because I disagreed with some sexist remark he made. and no, I don’t remember what it was. He then went into attacking me verbally, and was very abusive in doing so.
And about Gerard. I’ve never seen that side of him. I love it!!! In his defense, he warned against foul language, and I didn’t notice him using any. :)
Dear Gerard,
Please provide an example of me name calling. TIA.
I obviously struck a nerve. I struck a nerve because I asked you a question you do not want to answer. You thought your subsequent melodramatic post would distract me from realizing you didn’t answer the question. Even though you believe my 10 years of higher education was all for naught, I am still able to recall the question I asked you: WWPD? (What Would Preborn Do?)
Remember the question, Gerard? Prolifers speak on behalf of those in the womb. All I’m doing is asking you to answer the question from the perspective of those for whom you claim to speak.
Here’s what I think, Gerard: I think you intentionally avoided answering the question. You know the unborn baby would NOT consider a soldier who SUPPORTS his/her execution in the womb a “hero.”
That’s why.
I speak on behalf of the preborn. I answered the question on their behalf, since it involves them. Proabort soldiers do not rise to the level of “hero.”
Your answer (i.e., all soldiers are unconditionally heroes) is coming from you….from your own personal bias (maybe you’ve had family in the military). Your answer was not coming from a prolife perspective (heck, you even AVOIDED a question that would guide you into seeing the question from a prolife perspective).
Since you claim to be so smart, answer this simple question: WWPD?
TIA.
P.S. “Jill asks a good question on this thread.” - Gerard. Psssst……..the question was mine. I asked Jill the question, and she decided to make it her Stanek Weekend Question. You’re welcome.
P.P.S. You seem to be confused between a situation in which someone has reconciled and reformed from past sins, and someone who REMAINS in a serious state of sin….continue the sinful behaviors or beliefs.
JustSnapd8: “Cope attacked me on twitter, because I disagreed with some sexist remark he made. and no, I don’t remember what it was. He then went into attacking me verbally, and was very abusive in doing so.”
_______
Actually, you attacked Cope for what you perceived as a sexist remark. It wasn’t, and I had a right to stand up for myself. I’m not a “politically correct” type who will make you guess what I think. I tell you what I think. Those with thin skin will continue the “poor widdle victim” card months later to soothe their ego.
You seem to view prolife as a “competition” for which you must be seen as the #1 prolifer in the world. I saw you SCOLD a prolifer on Twitter who was sharing prolife perspectives to Donald Trump, Jr. The tweeter was sharing abortionists’ testimonies under oath regarding what they actually do during an abortion procedure. YOU interjected and told the prolifer to back off….that his approach wasn’t how YOU would do it.
LOL!
Get over yourself. PROLIFE IS ABOUT THE 4,000 BABIES SCHEDULED FOR ABORTION TOMORROW!
Prolife is not about you. It never has been. It never will be.
If this fact is too hard for you to swallow, then you may need to find a different “hobby.” Your personal grudges and incessant need for recognition only gets in the way of those who have healthy intentions.
Figure out what your motives are. Then, go save babies’ lives and be less annoying.
TIA.
“Me…me…I……I….my…….me….I…….me…..my…………..oh, and preborn babies…….I….me……me….”
WC,
You didn’t answer my question. Do you have any pets? And can a pet be a hero?
“Figure out what your motives are. Then, go save babies’ lives and be less annoying.”
et cum spiritu tuo
“ I asked Jill the question, and she decided to make it her Stanek Weekend Question.”
Just goes to show you even pro-life heroes like Jill can have lapses in judgement.
“ I asked Jill the question, and she decided to make it her Stanek Weekend Question.You’re welcome.”
But you accuse JustSnapd8 of having an obsessive need for recognition?
William Cope,
Since you were so generous as to give me your question to dialogue with;
In return I give you this question to post on your twitter.
“Would pro-life women back a law that required all women to get the father’s consent prior to terminating the life of their child?” “And would they back it if there was a rape exception?”
A law like that could reasonably reduce the number of legal abortions in the US by half.
JDC,
Ya hey dere. Hows it in da great up north? How do you think a law like that would do if it were put to vote in Canada?
I think, if I were a preborn baby, I would be greatful that someone was willing to put their life on the line so I could even have a free country to be born in. I mean, come on man.
Can people do good one day and do bad another day? YES. So I guess I would have to say that a person can be a hero on the battlefield and also be a pro-abort womanizing shmuch the rest of the time.
“You know the unborn baby would NOT consider a soldier who SUPPORTS his/her execution in the womb a “hero.””
Actually, we know nothing of the kind. It’s a thought experiment. So try these:
1) A pregnant woman’s life is saved by a pro-choice soldier/fire fighter/policeman. Does her unborn baby consider that soldier/fire fighter/policeman a hero?
2) A pro-choice soldier/fire fighter/policeman saves a man’s life. The man he saved happens to be an expectant dad. Does his unborn child consider that pro-choice soldier/fire fighter/policeman to be a hero?
Lrning,
Do the 4,000 babies in utero scheduled for abortion today consider proabort soldiers heroes? Yes or no?
JackBorsch says: “I think, if I were a preborn baby, I would be greatful that someone was willing to put their life on the line so I could even have a free country to be born in. I mean, come on man.”
If you were one of the 4,000 preborn babies scheduled for abortion today, would you call a soldier who SUPPORTS your execution a “hero”?
Yes or no?
TruthSeeker: “I would have to say that a person can be a hero on the battlefield and also be a pro-abort womanizing shmuch the rest of the time.”
Jerry Sandusky was a great offensive coordinator. Is he a football hero? Yes or no?
I guess you don’t include someones character when desginating them “hero”.
Welcome to the culture of death, my friend…………….
Yes, Cope, yes. I was scheduled for abortion as a fetus, I obviously wasn’t aborted but I don’t somehow consider everyone who was a pro-choice soldier in 1988 somehow not heroic because they weren’t there to tackle my mother outside the clinic. I also don’t think that everyone who was a pro-choice social worker, teacher, firefighter, police officer, or any other noble profession somehow is automatically evil because they bought into a pervasive social attitude. You people who see nothing other than us versus them and pro-life ideals as the only important thing in this universe… You people are scary.
TruthSeeker: “Would pro-life women back a law that required all women to get the father’s consent prior to terminating the life of their child?”
YES
TruthSeeker: “And would they back it if there was a rape exception?”
NO
_______
You don’t sound very prolife, TS. You’re wishy-washy.
TruthSeeker: “WC, You didn’t answer my question. Do you have any pets? And can a pet be a hero?”
Do animals support the intentional execution of human babies in utero by an abortionist? Animals may kill their young once born based on instinct, not malintent. Human beings have ability to reason and choose right from wrong (Natural Law Of Human Beings)
I don’t see how your question ties into this discussion.
Uh, Cope.. You seriously thinks rapists should have any rights at all in regards to their victims? That’s not prolife, that’s just disgusting
JDC: “But you accuse JustSnapd8 of having an obsessive need for recognition?”
_________
Gerard commended Jill Stanek on this weekend’s blog question. Unbeknownst to Gerard, he was complimenting me.
I felt it was appropriate to point this out to to Gerard since he called me a “wing nut,” “card-carrying wing-nut member” with my “own looney outpost”…”you don’t exactly come off as the birghtest candle on the alter”…..”hard-hearted hack”….”self-righteous clown”….etc.
Interestingly enough, Jill Stanek’s “blog monitor” Gerard procedes to preach to me about “civil discourse” and accuses me of “puerile name-calling.”
You can’t make this stuff up…………………
JackBorsh: “You seriously thinks rapists should have any rights at all in regards to their victims?”
Abortion is a death sentence for an innocent human being.
Ask Martin Sheen’s wife is she should have been aborted because she was conceived in rape. Let me know what she says. TIA.
JackBorsh,
If you were scheduled to be dismembered and brutally executed by a glorified hitman (because you were deemed an “inconvenience”) and were told “that soldier over there supports your execution”…..you’d call the soldier a hero?
Uh, okay. Duly noted………….
Yeah.. I didn’t say “babies conceived in rape should be aborted”. Obviously I don’t think that. However I happen to be SANE and would never support a law that gave rapists any control or rights to their victims. Means. Ends. Not justified.
Yeah, like I said. All the soldiers that supported my narrowly escaped death sentence as a fetus were still heroes.
JackBorsh,
Abortion rights is a “pervasive social attitude”?
Over half of Americans today oppose abortion.
The tide is turning.
Pay attention.
_______________
JackBorsh: “You people who see nothing other than us versus them and pro-life ideals as the only important thing in this universe… You people are scary.”
4,000 preborn babies per day are snuffed out in this country by proaborts like you. It’s you against them. They can’t fight back or speak for themselves. That’s where we come in.
You minimize the serious, deadly nature of abortion.
You’re a culture-of-death minion, think only of yourself, and are a moral relativist to the point of death.
THAT is scary.
Blah blah blah I am not a “pro-abort” nor a culture of death minions lol. Just as against abortion as you are buddy. I just think you people who don’t use rationality nor logic, who refuse to consider other humans besides the preborn, who act as though the lives soldiers save are worthless because they are not prenatal…. Yeah, you people are scary.
Dear TruthSeeker,
Your handle belies your posting behavior.
You entered this blog page posting insights such as:
“Being pro-abort makes it a lot less likely (that a soldier is a hero)”…”Pro-aborts would not be as likely to care about others”… “Jespren, in the Bible King David repented.”
Then, JustSnapd8 whined to you b/c you disagreed w/ “blog monitor” Gerard’s vitriolic post to me. To which you replied: “JustSnap8d, I am not defending William Cope in any attacks on you. If he came on this site and was abusive I would let him have it too.”
___________
Now enters TruthSeeker, knight on a white horse coming to save JustSnapd8 (and throw the unborn under the bus):
“So I guess I would have to say that a person can be a hero on the battlefield and also be a pro-abort womanizing shmuch the rest of the time.”
You even attack the blog-page question itself b/c it originated w/ me: “Just goes to show you even pro-life heroes like Jill Stanek can have lapses in judgement (by selecting your question).” - TruthSeeker. (I dunno, I’d say 140 posts related to the question elicited decent dialogue and insights)
__________
So, TruthSeeker, it appears you convictions and principles are wishy-washy and sway as easily as a reed in the wind.
Those in the womb deserve better. Tighten it up…..for THEIR sake.
?
?
?
?
Lrning,
Do the 4,000 babies in utero scheduled for abortion today consider proabort soldiers heroes? Yes or no?
The 4000 babies scheduled to die today cannot consider anything because they are not far enough along in their development. Do they deserve to live? Absolutely.
1) A pregnant woman’s life is saved by a pro-choice soldier/fire fighter/policeman. Does her unborn baby consider that soldier/fire fighter/policeman a hero?
2) A pro-choice soldier/fire fighter/policeman saves a man’s life. The man he saved happens to be an expectant dad. Does his unborn child consider that pro-choice soldier/fire fighter/policeman to be a hero?
You do realize that “proabort soldiers” are individuals, yes? Just like pro-lifers, some are more virtuous than others. Just like pro-lifers, all are capable of doing God’s will in any given situation. All are capable of actions that give glory to God.
Lrning: “The 4000 babies scheduled to die today cannot consider anything because they are not far enough along in their development. Do they deserve to live? Absolutely.”
_______
Interesting how you “choose” to take a proabort tack when trying to slither away from a legitimate question.
You see, as a prolifer you stand up for and SPEAK ON BEHALF OF the unborn. In this instance, you conveniently REFUSE to speak on their behalf. How convenient. Read your response again:
“The 4000 babies scheduled to die today cannot consider anything because they are not far enough along in their development.”
How proaborty of you…………………..
Lrning: Proabort fireman/soldier fire fighter/policeman saves pregnant woman and a preborn’s father. Does her unborn baby consider that soldier/fire fighter/policeman a hero?
______________
I would say the baby is grateful for what the fire fighter did, but would not consider him/her a hero. After all, the proabort fire fighter only considers the baby a useless clump of cells – such disrespect is not hero worthy.
P.S. Interesting how you refused to answer my hypothetical because the preborn babies “cannot consider anything because they’re not far enough along in their development.” Yet, you ask me a similar question (“Does her unborn baby consider….”). Look up duplicitous in the dictionary. TIA.
I would say the baby is grateful for what the fire fighter did, but would not consider him/her a hero.
And I would say the unborn baby considers the fire fighter a hero for saving the life of both mother and baby. Now what?
“How proaborty of you…”
Thanks for the lulz.
Interesting how you refused to answer my hypothetical because the preborn babies “cannot consider anything because they’re not far enough along in their development.”
You refuse to acknowledge that the hypothetical you propose is a thought experiment. I refused to answer your question because it is flawed. As I mentioned, pro-aborts are individuals. An individual is a hero or not. Not an entire category of people. In my opinion of course.
I don’t see how your question ties into this discussion.
Dodged like a liberal.
So, TruthSeeker, it appears you convictions and principles are wishy-washy and sway as easily as a reed in the wind.
Those in the womb deserve better. Tighten it up…..for THEIR sake.
No, my convictions have not changed. I just thought about and realized that people are capable of genuine change. They can act terribly one day and heroically the next. That is why I answered the way I did. So to refine what I said I will change my answer to proaborts are capable of acting like heroes at times but I would not give them the title of hero. Just like pro-life people can act evil at times and also man not desrve the title hero.
Cope – “Actually, you attacked Cope for what you perceived as a sexist remark. It wasn’t, and I had a right to stand up for myself.”
Since your memory is obviously ‘superior’ to mine, why don’t you share your remark here, which I (according to you) ’perceived as sexist’?
“You seem to view prolife as a “competition” for which you must be seen as the #1 prolifer in the world.”
Pot meet kettle –> “Gerard commended Jill Stanek on this weekend’s blog question. Unbeknownst to Gerard, he was complimenting me.”
Most of us (you excepted), don’t do this for recognition.
Superior much? To Dr Nadal, yes DR Nadal —> ”Even though you believe my 10 years of higher education was all for naught”.. Thank God Gerard isn’t arrogant like you!
Back to me me me!!! “I saw you SCOLD a prolifer on Twitter who was sharing prolife perspectives to Donald Trump, Jr. The tweeter was sharing abortionists’ testimonies under oath regarding what they actually do during an abortion procedure. YOU interjected and told the prolifer to back off….that his approach wasn’t how YOU would do it.”
You have a problem with free speech? Oh wait, not if it’s a superior sexist man doing the talking, right?
LOL You are a piece of work Cope.. similar to what my dog does in the yard after he eats dinner.
From today’s blog buzz:
The Planned Parenthood in Columbia, Missouri is indefinitely suspending abortions – again:
This isn’t the first time Planned Parenthood has suspended abortions at the Columbia clinic while doctors were unavailable. The clinic halted abortions for four months beginning last October after its lone Columbia physician was sent overseas on active military duty.