Opposing views of humanity = “irreconcilable” views on abortion
Left-liberalism seeks to present the Irish position on abortion as obscurantist for reasons relating to blind obedience to the Catholic Church. But this fails fundamentally to understand either religion or abhorrence of abortion. Catholics are people who understand reality in a particular way, not people who have been given a list of things they must believe in.
The Catholic position on abortion arises from a moral perspective centred on the dignity of the human person. Catholicism is the expression of this perspective, not its motivation. A majority of Irish people continues to hold to a principled opposition to abortion, and would almost certainly do so even if the Catholic Church withdrew its objections, which is unlikely….
As elsewhere, Irish liberals mostly claim not to seek to introduce into Ireland abortion on demand. Instead, they have hidden behind “hard cases” to whip up public sympathy and confound the general opposition in Irish society to the kind of abortion regime that exists in the neighbouring island. Close to 5,000 Irish women are said to travel to the UK every year to procure abortions there, and this is advanced as an argument that Irishwomen’s rights are being infringed in their own country….
There is no possibility of reconciling [the pro-life] position with the left-liberal worldview, in Ireland any more than anywhere else – not because one is obscurantist and the other enlightened, but because Catholicism and left-liberalism see the human condition in two utterly divergent ways.
One sees man as flawed, fragile but redeemable, the other sees a species perfectible by its own endeavors, for which all things are possible through the imposition of individual “rights.”
~ John Waters, ilsussidiario.net, November 19
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Perhaps the traveling to the U.K. is an enriching experience.
As a good priest said: abortion isn’t wrong because the Catholic Church says it’s wrong; abortion is wrong AND SO the Catholic Church will say it!
Very well articulated, great quote of the day!
Denise, are you just saying weird things on purpose now?
JDC says:
November 19, 2012 at 5:12 pm
Denise, are you just saying weird things on purpose now?
(Denise) I’m just being myself
I remember a novel in which a man told his teenaged son that a pregnant girlfriend “needs a Puerto Rican vacation.” Another short story referred to a “vacation/abortion.”
Yes, abortions are good for travel. See another travel. Many women will have fond memories of other countries through abortion tourism.
However, no country should overdo it lest its drains get clogged with fetal parts from happy travelers.
Yes, abortions are good for travel. See another travel. Many women will have fond memories of other countries through abortion tourism.
Okaaaayyy… thanks for that little gem.
I want some of what Denise is on!
Reality says:
November 19, 2012 at 6:28 pm
I want some of what Denise is on!
(Denise) H2O on the rocks.
I think someone used something other than H2O for those rocks Denise :-)
Okay this thread is surreal lol.
However, no country should overdo it lest its drains get clogged with fetal parts from happy travelers.
Really Denise??
We used to delete comments from trolls who derailed threads.
I would like to get back to that I think.
It is so interesting to me to think about not only how our faith most certainly informs our worldview, but also how our worldview may debatably predispose us to our religious beliefs. What is not interesting, but highly irritating, is how any worldview associated with conservative Christians is labelled religious and therefore devalued.
Abortions are harder to get in some countries and easier to get in others. That encourages traveling. What is so bizarre? It makes perfect sense.
Carla says:
November 19, 2012 at 8:49 pm
However, no country should overdo it lest its drains get clogged with fetal parts from happy travelers.
Really Denise??
(Denise) Really.
Oh Denise.
OK. What is done with embryonic or fetal body parts after an abortion? I guess the plumbing issue is irrelevant if they are burned.
I’m sorry JackBorsch and Carla but I have heard that the parts of embryos and fetuses are sometimes just flushed down sinks. Perhaps I was misinformed. But if they are flushed, what happens to the plumbing? It’s not an off-the-wall question.
@Carla: There are circumstances under which I believe placing babies for adoption should be COMPULSORY. The adoptive parents should know of the inevitable wound caused by separation from the birthmother. The author of “Primal Wound,” an adoptive mother, believes adoptive parents can raise healthy and well-adjusted children if they are aware of the special problems adoptees have and work to counteract them.
Sorry for what you had to endure under Ireland’s abortion ban Savita and your eventual death. Lack of medical access didn’t kill you. Politics did.
Savita would have died even if abortion were legal.
Pregnant women die here, too.
They didn’t treat her for infection. That is why she died. If she had got an abortion, it would not have cured the infection. Duh.
Just read the report.
What report is that hippie? You mean the “report” by John Craddock, a student who made his determination after reading about the case in the newspaper?
Did “politics” also kill Tonya Reaves, or is that case different because it happened in a country where you agree with the laws?
Did politics kill Kermit Gosnell’s patient as well? His “clinic” was a filthy mess, but pro-abortion inspectors gave him a pass because after all, we can’t hold abortionists to the standards of cleanliness we expect from a veterinarian. If we do, then the pro-lifers “win.” Right abortion advocates? If he hadn’t expanded into the illegal drug trade, then he’d be happily “snipping” air-breathing newborn infants today.
Oh, we mean ole pro-lifers, we ruin everything, what with our pesky live human beings and all.
“The Catholic position on abortion arises from a moral perspective centred on the dignity of the human person.”
Unless that person is a dying pregnant woman. Then, it is perfectly within Catholic theology to let her die, regardless of her wishes or the viability of the fetus.
It’s not a coincidence that this type of medical malpractice occurred in a country whose anti-choice laws are specifically drafted that way by the Catholic Church. This is exactly what the Catholic Church teaches in this situation – the woman should be prepared to die if pregnant. Any practicing Catholic can explain this. (Sorry, double effect doesn’t apply here.)
In fact, many Catholics can probably tell stories of married Catholic women they know who were counseled by priests to not even avoid pregnancy, much less abort a pregnancy, even though the woman’s life is threatened by pregnancy. (Thank goodness there are plenty of priests who buck the Church’s directives in favor of sanity, but not always.)
The sad thing is, there are women like Savita who don’t subscribe to these religious views, but she was forced to endure them because unfortunately, she lived in a theocracy. Had she lived in this country, her local Catholic hospital just would have patient-dumped her on another facility, where she could get the care she needed.
The sad thing is, there are women like Savita who don’t subscribe to these religious views, but she was forced to endure them because unfortunately, she lived in a theocracy. Had she lived in this country, her local Catholic hospital just would have patient-dumped her on another facility, where she could get the care she needed.
Can’t let you do that, Star Fox.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland
Unless, of course, we’re using “theocracy” in a purely colloquial sense (that is, a country with laws that you don’t like which happen to be consistent with the teachings of a certain religious body).
Judging by the maternal mortality rates in both nations and the fact that abortion is legal in Ireland if the mother’s life is in danger (meaning that changing the law would have been irrelevant to Savita’s survival), I don’t think Ireland needs to be taking any lessons from the United States.
Given Savita’s death (and many others), abortion is apparently not de facto legal in Ireland if the pregnant person’s life is in danger. It may be de jure legal, but the way the law (and the Church) get around this is that they refuse to define the circumstances in which a pregnant person’s life is in danger. They’ve been asked to do that, but they won’t do it.
And as for a theocracy – again, the difference is de facto vs. de jure. When the country’s educational and health systems depend largely on the Catholic church, and when laws cannot be passed without the Church’s blessing or enforced unless the Church approves – yeah, it’s a theocracy in all but name.
Hippie: “Savita would have died even if abortion were legal.”
Oh really? Her cervix being dilated for days contributed nothing to her risk for infection? How much should a woman die before she can get the healthcare she needs?Apparently no amount of suffering is enough to satisfy you “pro-lifers.” And that’s what being forced to carry an unwanted pregnancy is like, especially if it’s making you really really sick: it’s a form of torture.
Ninek: good for you. I was once an embryo and also two separate gametes (and previously some random molecules floating in the ether). So what? Does your big book of science tell you to worship sperm and eggs because they have the potential to become people? What do you think is lost when an embryo dies? In concrete terms. What is missing from your world if a woman decides to take RU-486 and flushes a six-week-old embryo from her body? Ohhh a heartbeat! Who cares. Frogs have heartbeats. GET OVER IT.
Aside from abortion being a human rights issue rather than a religious issue, there’s also the fact that the jury is still out as to whether an abortion would’ve even helped her. Which appears contrary to what the initial reports suggest.
Given Savita’s death (and many others), abortion is apparently not de facto legal in Ireland if the pregnant person’s life is in danger. It may be de jure legal, but the way the law (and the Church) get around this is that they refuse to define the circumstances in which a pregnant person’s life is in danger. They’ve been asked to do that, but they won’t do it.
Such cases are extremely rare. The written law doesn’t explicitly define every single circumstance under which I can shoot you with a gun as an acceptable form of self-defence. It’s usually dealt with by the courts (where they consider things like the reasonable person standard, relative danger, the type of force used, etc) and it’s a judgement call on the part of the individual (or in this case the doctors). Though it appears that inducing labour in medical emergencies is common practice, as noted by prominent obstetricians:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/we-wont-let-women-die-says-professor-3294626.html
On the other hand, doctors in the U.S. will often encourage women to have abortions for “health” reasons when their conditions could in fact be safely treated (with the end result being a healthy mother and baby). The basic idea is that there are no legal penalties associated with telling a woman to get an abortion she doesn’t actually need, as she can always just “try again” if she’s young and fertile. The same principle holds for fetal abnormalities:
http://www.firstthings.com/article/2007/10/003-medicalizing-abortion-decisions-15
A legal climate that encourages obstetricians to abandon half of their patients seems antithetical to sound medical ethics. So once again, it would seem that Ireland doesn’t need to take lessons from the United States.
And as for a theocracy – again, the difference is de facto vs. de jure. When the country’s educational and health systems depend largely on the Catholic church, and when laws cannot be passed without the Church’s blessing or enforced unless the Church approves – yeah, it’s a theocracy in all but name.
The population is more than 80% Catholic. I would expect that they send their kids to Catholic schools. Archbishop McQuaid was the last prelate with considerable political influence. He died in 1973.
“Aside from abortion being a human rights issue rather than a religious issue”
Oh, but don’t you know x, non-religious opposition to abortion must be dismissed and ignored at all costs!
xalisae says:
November 20, 2012 at 10:54 pm
Aside from abortion being a human rights issue rather than a religious issue, there’s also the fact that the jury is still out as to whether an abortion would’ve even helped her. Which appears contrary to what the initial reports suggest.
(Denise) A pregnant woman was having problems with her pregnancy. She was starting her 5th month. The law allows abortion to save the pregnant woman’s life. When it is necessary is a medical judgement call. There’s nothing to this story. A young woman just died. It may just have been an unavoidable tragedy.
Denise, I wouldn’t say it was “unavoidable”, as it’s my understanding that the woman had an infection which didn’t get treated until at least 3 days after her initial admittance. Aaaaand-due to that fact-I just can’t see how abortion would’ve helped her if the primary problem (the infection) hadn’t even begun to be addressed.
Navi says:
November 20, 2012 at 6:38 pm
Did “politics” also kill Tonya Reaves, or is that case different because it happened in a country where you agree with the laws?
(Denise) Tonya Reaves was 16 weeks pregnant when she had a legal abortion. Once you are past the 1st trimester, the chances of complications dramatically increase regardless of whether it is legal or not.
xalisae says:
November 21, 2012 at 6:46 am
Denise, I wouldn’t say it was “unavoidable”, as it’s my understanding that the woman had an infection which didn’t get treated until at least 3 days after her initial admittance. Aaaaand-due to that fact-I just can’t see how abortion would’ve helped her if the primary problem (the infection) hadn’t even begun to be addressed.
(Denise) Then maybe the problem was simply the infection. The pregnancy may not have even been the problem. Occasionally pregnant women are going to get sick like everyone else and the sickness may not even be the result or related to the pregnancy.
Tonya Reaves was 16 weeks pregnant when she had a legal abortion. Once you are past the 1st trimester, the chances of complications dramatically increase regardless of whether it is legal or not.
If I understand right, they left her to bleed for five hours before sending her to the emergency room.
And abortion was legal in Savita’s case. At best, this story can prove that Ireland needs better medical guidelines. It doesn’t follow that elective abortion should be legal, which is what the demagogues are clamouring for.
If a woman is actually in danger of dying, undergoing an abortion doesn’t even seem logical. It’s another attempt to simplify a serious and dangerous procedure, further risk the mother’s life. To blame this tragic situation on an innocent child is typical of the abortion industry, which vilifies motherhood, innocence, and women in general.
In the name of women’s rights, the UN has successfully launched a war on fertility. Check out Agenda 21 for the latest diabolical plot in store for our wombs in the name of “progress”, coming to a village near you. They give you rights? then you are responsible, so they can make you accountable!