This weekend’s question comes from good friend Josh Brahm, Director of Education and Public Relations, Right to Life of Central California:
What are the most frustrating or annoying things that pro-choice people do that shuts down good dialogue? Stories are welcome.
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
After any dialog that hits a wall,the pro-abortion Person say’s”Well it’s really none of YOUR business anyway,this is AMERICA and it’s MY CHOICE”.
They say it’s legal (40 years in fact) and it’s my right. LL
They start by calling us “anti-choicers,” clearly meant to be a pejorative term. Next, they call us liars. Third, they rarely want to acknowledge that a life is being taken through abortion. Fourth, they accuse pro-lifers of only caring about the baby. Fifth, they accuse us of being part of the “rape culture.” Your sidebar features the blog of clinic escorts outside the abortion clinic in Louisville, and the pro-life pregnancy center is right next door. Those particular escorts sometimes high-five each other when they’ve “helped” a pregnant woman make it to the door of the clinic. They believe that a woman with an appointment at that clinic has made her fully informed, unpressured decision, calmly and rationally. It never crosses their minds that perhaps the dad, the mom, the boyfriend or a friend has made the appointment for her, possibly against her will. So, it’s not what they say that shuts down dialogue. It’s a mindset that never lets the dialogue begin.
Diversion as you can see on this blog. Their guilt will tell them anything irrational to try to twist facts. I was talking to a retired doctor friend of mine the other day. He used to do abdominal surgeries. He said ” Any doctor who performs an abortion doesn’t deserve the title.”
Assuming I hate women.( I am one!)
Assuming I hate sex, or care about your sex life.
Assuming I’m Christian. Nothing wrong with being pro-life from a Christian perspective, but when I tell pro-aborts I’m not and they still respond to my secular arguments with “your god…”, I know
they are just spouting bumper sticker arguments.
Obvious denial of biology. I saw a post last night on FB–a picture of a 12 week fetus. Someone commented that it was “just a blastocyst with less than 100 cells” AND THE PICTURE WAS RIGHT THERE.
A personal one: comparing abortion to miscarriage. Because then *I* get mad and have to leave the conversation.
When they know they can’t win they get angry and leave the debate cursing is also a favorite.
Denying that they can make a difference so that they can remain apathetic.
Telling me I’m a woman hater, telling me I need to get my religion (regardless if I’ve said anything religious or not) out of the debate, trying to find ways to make me look hypocritical (“are you against the death penalty?? War??? Animal slaughter????”), telling me that the responsibility of solving the problem of unwanted children is on me (“why don’t YOU adopt all these children???”).
You know, the usual.
When they refuse to acknowledge simple biological facts even though you clearly show them that the unborn are human…not another species and are living, not a blob of dead tissue in a suspended state. You show them the truth and yet they still refuse to acknowledge it. It reminds me of my kids with the fingers in the ears “Nah! nah! Nah! Not going to listen!!!”
If they can’t accept or understand simple biological truth where do you go with them? They’re too stubborn and still holding onto their outdate “flat earth” mindset.
Also accusing me of being misogynistic and hating myself for being a woman. Ha! That always makes me smirk. I totally hate being a lady. Thats why I, you know, act like one.
Drawing attention to the fact that I’m a man as if that’s somehow relevant to the debate.
Mocking religion. I think many people believe that by a woman especially we should be okay with abortion and agree with their actions. A lot of them go bonkers on you if you are an anti abortion woman. When it comes to men they come back with “You don’t have a uterus.” That doesn’t matter because a baby isn’t made unless sperm meets an egg. That’s not fair to men. I know many men who wanted their children and would have done anything to prevent an abortion. They were crushed when the women in their lives killed their children despite their begging them not to.
I don’t have an answer off the top of my head, but I think this is one of the best and potentially most productive weekend questions so far. I look forward to reading more answers and replies. I am sure this must be studied, does anyone even know what the topic/subject would be in order to look it up? I wondering if “shutting down dialogue” is one of the skills of a community organizer?
I thought of two: 1) wasting my time by bringing up a bad academic analogy where I find myself in a hospital attached to some poor sick unconscious violinist; and 2) denying the mother’s parental responsibility to look out for her preborn child.
Being accused of only caring about the child and not the mother AND child.
Being accused of not caring enough if I haven’t adopted/fostered children
Being accused of not wanting to care for those “poor, unwanted, children of women that are addicted to drugs.”
Being accused of not knowing basic biological facts- which then they get stumped when I question to see if they even know the difference between a blastocyst and embryo. Currently it’s the fun times in getting them to translate the word fetus.
Being called a hypocrite when they learn I’ve had two abortions and accused of “Oh, so it was ok for you to have that choice but not for others?” when they’re not even listening when I try to explain how destructive to the woman an abortion truly is.
i have been able to have some really good discussions/arguments with pro-aborts, on many levels, online and IRL, and outside of clinics. What shuts everything down isn’t even the intellectual disconnect, it’s their HATRED. That hatred blocks any sense of their reasoning abilities.
Recently the most frustrating thing has been this:
A pro-choicer recognized that human sperm + human egg = human being, but then went on to basically treat it as irrelevant. If it’s a human being and you’re ending that human being’s existence, isn’t that what murder is? But pro-choicers decide to ignore that and not acknowledge it. Even when they admit human sperm + human egg = new human being.
I like how most of these boil down to “disagreeing with me”. That’s always frustrating, I know.
That is one of the most insightful things I have ever read. Ty joan
All my life has been attempting to find the mysterious happiness. When did we stop listening?
listening, LISTENING FOR(not to) THE PAIN (of dreams and futures gone … all gone)!
Well I think many times if they are not winning the debate they bring up “contraception”. “Contraception” is a very tough debate. The only remedy to failed contraception is abortion.
Also, many pro-choicers don’t even understand how contraception works and why it’s really just a chemical abortion.
Jill, I know years ago you explained how contraception works on your blog. Why don’t pro-choicers recognize hormonal contraception is really just a chemical instead of surgical abortion?
Pete
When all else fails, I find pro-abortionists sometimes resort to personal attacks. Some don’t even wait until when all else fails. These attacks almost always have something to do with things about me that are inaccurate and that the attackers do not and could not know about me, unless I told them. These attacks very rarely have anything to do with the topic at hand in even an indirect way.
When people fail to defend the indefensible, they get defensive and in turn try to put me on the defensive.
What I try to do is stay on topic, but usually they end the discussion at that point.
The only reason that frustrates me is because it is tragic to see entrenched in a position they can’t defend. Especially when, for some, it is a matter of life and death.
Mostly is not waiting for the answer I am giving to their question before they ask another question or make another statement. They really don’t want to hear the answer – they just want to make their point. We had one of those yesterday. The man was doing all the talking/deflecting. She barely said a thing. In the end, his lady was left in the clinic alone while he left. I don’t expect he will hold her hand or wipe her brow as she is sick for the next 10 days of 2 weeks while dealing with an at-home abortion of their child.
Another time a young woman and I had a 30+ minute discussion and frequently I had to interrupt her next salvo. I finally asked her to please wait while I honestly answered her question. In the end, she did say that she was still pro-choice, but that I was the most informed person she had ever talked to on the subject. I hope that some time in the future she will cone to the pro-life position.
Calling all unborn children fertilized eggs or claiming that an egg, sperm, other bodily cell is the same thing and thus we all have the equivalent of abortions every time we a) have a period b) ejaculate c)skin our knees
most of these boil down to “name-calling” or “change-the-topic.” if you can introduce thid into a discussion early, it can kill-switch their 2 kill switches.
for example, you can say: ok, we are starting to discuss whether an 8-wk-old fetus is human or not; I have been here before – when I have gotten here, your fellow pro-choicers always do the same thing: change the topic or name-calling – labeling me dumb or blinded by religion. Could we actually discuss whether an 8-wk-old fetus is human or not? or will you predictably change the topic or end up calling me a name?
the person will eventually end up calling you a name or changing the topic.
this has all been programmed by the cult leaders.
as a former cult member, believe me.
if you think abt it, all arguments boil down to name-calling or change-the-topic.
for example – ‘you conservatives only care abt these kids before they are born’
that is ‘change the topic.’
when you forecast how a discussion will go, and then it comes true, it is less frustrating. you KNOW a time-true dishonest technique is being played on you.
plus, hopefully, it helps illuminate: their ploys are so manufactured and predictable that they are either great or worthless.
our ploys are predictable: the not-yet-born is a human who deserves human life, and we promote abortion out of selfishness.
that is what they have to fite against.
stick to it.
plus the message: there is hope, and there is help.
Cutting into the productive conversation between multiple Facebook participants discussing the humanity of an unborn child with the inane suggestion “You will never change anyone’s mind.” A patently untrue statement since the other participants have begun to concede several key points in favor of humanity and private messages keep coming in from people too intimidated to join in openly, but none-the-less tell you how interested they are in what had been discussed.
But also some women who have had abortions aren’t shouting from the rooftops “I’m pro choice ” These are the women who have realized immediately that it was the wrong thing to do. They will tell you about regrets and they will say they would never abort again.
“Don’t like abortion don’t have one!” It’s the most innane, ridiculous, foolish, absurd come back in my mind and I sure seem to run into it a lot.
It’s the wrong question because its a set-me-up-to-be-a-loser in this argument. It primes the PL-side to be the loser in this debate because every time, we will be frustrated and shut-down….told to shut-up. Instead this debate should appeal to the aspect of justice that is the STRENGTH OF THIS GROUP which is fairness. Ask a very simple question: ‘When you get pregnant will you have a baby-shower or a fetus-shower? And eventually one of aka-X’s keen refuting remarks: “What has this baby done that it deserves killing?”
Disregarding pro-life arguments as “religion” when you haven’t even mentioned religion. This is just a way to avoid legitimate dialogue. Instead of actually defending their position or arguing intellectually, some pro-choicers resort to name-calling and bashing Christianity, even when it is completely irrelevant to the conversation. They assume all pro-lifers are people of faith (many are) and that just because a person has faith anything they say is automatically discounted.
Of course, many pro-choicers dialogue reasonably with pro-lifers, and there are those unreasonable on both sides, but I am pretty sick of “Don’t impose your religion on me,” as a defense to scientific and philosophical arguments.
or: “as a new Momma-bear will YOU protect YOUR kid even if…. these ‘friends’ want him/her dead … even if the boyfriend wants him/her dead … even if YOUR MAMMA wants him/her dead too? Are YOU a Momma-bear?
I can hear the chant now …”MAMMA-BEARS UNITE, UNITE, UNITE AND FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT!!!’
Correction….frustrating ways to shut us down? No they are the ones who are frustrated and forever will be trying to spin the truth to fit their. deceived minds.
I’ve heard this argument from both a Black male school teacher from watts and a White female high-level business women in advertising: Abortion should be legal because poor black women NEED to have abortions.
Also.
From a friend who’s a grandmother: Women need to be able to abortion if they have been raped, and if they are carrying a disabled child.
So in all instances it is being used as euthenasia, essentially, for those society derides as ‘unfit’. It’s so blatantly facism. It’s so blatantly murder. Don’t get me started!
John McDonell,
I’m wondering that myself-since the pro-choicers are so fond of calling the baby a “fetus” and being careful not to use the word “baby” when speaking of yet-to-be-born-outside-the-womb human being, I wonder if they call them Fetus Showers. So far, I haven’t heard the term, but aren’t they being inconsistent and hypocritical to call said shower a “BABY Shower” if they don’t believe said human being is a baby, but rather a “fetus”?
Hi Mother in Texas,
The term ffetus-shower is more consistent with thelir approach (qnd they know it (Heather)] but they will stick with this new tem out of curiosity, and likely a-more-civilized. They also already know thetalking-pointa (debate strategies) that PL makes. (Yes Heather including the humanity of the unborn. Try these ideas on the leader of the group. She is often the one not-speaking, but because of-her-superior-intellect is the leader of this group. The whole idea behind the concept of Mama-bear is to evoke the natural maternal instinct that remains dormant in EVERY woman, even PC.
One of the most-effective tools I used was to talk about the moods of depresion that appeared at specific times in pregnancy: the 1st was 8-10 wks gestation; the 2nd was the whole 3rd trimester (and is likely responsible why women seek late-term abortions) and lastly, is the famous post partem depression [which can be suicidal]. every one of these reflects the huge special need for zinc in a developing baby. In North America, puberty puts an added strain (for the developing human nee ds extra zinc for maturation, so a teen-young woman who is also pregnant is a shoe-in for these depressions. The goal here is to maximize health. Thoughts on abortion will fall, if you interest is maximizing health.
Easy way for prochoicers to shut down dialogue is to turn the conversation into a gay rights discussion. I’ve seen it work a couple of times. It generally has to be done with someone like a Keith Tucci or a Randall Terry. Getting them on an anti-gay rant is very easy.
YEP.
but thanks for admitting you have no real argument for abortion, so you’re forced to change the issue to a totally unrelated topic, Merit. ;)
for Christians who get slapped-down, say: “Sorry I really have no choice. I just can’t see myself praying… ‘dear God-Obama you want me and brave Americans to stand-down like at Bengazi and now you want me to kill my kid, eh? Have I got it right?”. Thanks, but I’ll stick with my Christian-God.”
“Easy way for prochoicers to shut down dialogue is to turn the conversation into a gay rights discussion. I’ve seen it work a couple of times. It generally has to be done with someone like a Keith Tucci or a Randall Terry. Getting them on an anti-gay rant is very easy.”
Lol, I’ll give you this Merit, it’s too true for some pro-lifers. But like X said, if you have to do this you really don’t have an argument.
I agree with x and Jack. If you have to change topics to “shut down” a pro-lifer then you haven’t proven that abortion is “okay” on any level. All you’ve done is changed the topic. In the long run, what does it prove? That you can skip from topic to topic with ease? Good for you. But what does that have to do with ending the existence of an in-uteral human being who’s only so-called crime is existing?
Agreed.