by LauraLoo
An actress portrays a single mother of 4 on food stamps who can’t afford her groceries. ABC’s John Quińones asks the question, “What Would You Do?”
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5exphsoXa4[/youtube]
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Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
Nah. Tax these good people more at the checkout, so that government can relieve them of the undue burden of acting virtuously. Actually, this kind of unofficial assistive service should probably be outlawed. Individual citizens don’t have the resources to determine whether fraud is being committed; indeed these naive folk had no idea this was a setup. Furthermore, what if the number of poor people in line exceeded the capacity of the do-gooders? Clearly, relying on random, volitional, uncontrolled kindness is not a solution. Centralized, bureaucratic distribution to meet people’s needs is the only sane policy.
I have bought groceries for people in the past. Sometimes in line when someone couldn’t pay, and on rare occasions when someone approached me and asked me to help them feed their children for a few nights. I don’t give money to people, but I have never had a problem giving food to people; if someone wants to walk through the store with me and pick out a few staples for herself, I’m glad to be part of that.
I did once get a “disgruntled bystander” lecturing me on it, which shocked me! She didn’t really have a problem with me paying for the groceries, but with what the woman was getting. ie the woman got a box of store-brand macaroni and cheese and the bystander started lecturing her on how she should just get pasta and cheese and milk or whatever else goes into mac-and-cheese, and make it herself, and it would be cheaper. The ‘heckler’ was somewhat young and looked fairly wealthy and I couldn’t help but think that she was just not giving enough thought to the variety of circumstances the woman I was helping might be in. She might not have a functional stove or she might have to squeeze dinner into a very tight time slot before going off to work a night job, or she might have to leave tonight’s food preparation up to her oldest kid and thus need something very simple, whatever – or she legitimately might just not have even the most basic cooking skills. Who knows? (I’ll tell you who knows – the woman choosing the groceries!) And what is going to change at 6pm on a weeknight when she’s got three kids who need to eat very soon? Systemic problems that contribute to immediate problems deserve attention, but there is a time and place for that attention, I think. Needing to eat tonight, and lacking the resources or skills to eat EVERY night AS CHEAPLY AS POSSIBLE are two separate problems, and I’m okay dealing with them separately. Whenever I have paid for someone else’s groceries I take a very strict stance that what they and their families eat is not my business. Maybe if someone wanted to buy beer or something I might have to amend that stance, but within reason I respect that person enough, and give them enough credit, to trust that they know what works best for them TONIGHT.
I’d give them the money.
As a former street person and ex-druggie, I never give anyone money. Give em food or clothes, but you aren’t helping anyone by passing out cash.
I’d. only give money to the cashier
How do you know its not a SCAM. I’m SICK of welfare cheaters and crackheads who sell thier food stamps for 25 cents on the dollar. And I’m even more sick of ghetto grocers who buy food stamps and redeem them with the government for full value. Food stamp fraud is the latest economic jihad by inner city “grocers”
I’m equally sick of the ”I’m a single mother” sympathy ploy. WHY are you a single mother? Didn’t bother to marry the baby daddy? Didn’t you need a man becuase you’re a ‘Strong (fill in the race) woman”?
I’ve been on food stamps with an infant. Long after I got off them, I had my credit card rejected at the grocery store on two seprate occasions – clerical errors similar to what this actor is claimnig. I put groceries back.
I’m already paying for this woman’s groceries with my tax dollers. I will not pay twice. She has to live within her means, even if those means are small (as does everone else on the planet).
my husband and i were talking the other day about how the government is the great enabler. i don’t know about other states but Ohio will give you a check food stamps and free housing if you are on drugs or alcohol and free medical too
my 81 year old mom goes. to work every day except Sunday because she likes to
my mom still gets said but she’s been a hairdresser since i was a baby
I’m 41 now and i have been an LPN since. 1988 some of these people need to go to work
The scenario I more often see (as in, weekly) is a cart piled high with full-price items I can’t afford being paid with EBT while I am maximizing my coupons on the double coupon days and scouting the in-store deals (2 for $x.xx). It is difficult for me to wrap my head around the purchase of 8 different packages of meat when I can count on one hand the times we have meat per month in my single parent household. I don’t know the circumstances, I remind myself, and I’m with you completely, Alexandra, about food choices. It would be wrong to mandate what people must purchase (plus, the Doritos might be the special request of a child for a birthday party) and I wouldn’t advocate that. However, I think that there could be incentives for getting the most bang for the buck. I haven’t thought through the details, but there’s got to be a better way.
Another scenario I’ve witnessed multiple times is groceries bought in a convenience store (can we say mark up?) on EBT and then cash is pulled out to pay for the cigarettes and lottery tickets. Something just doesn’t sit right with me there.
Jack, I’m with you 100%. I will get a sandwich/soup and a drink and loop back around to give it to them rather than give cash (which I rarely carry anyway).
mom gets ssi
that’s. why i do understand. people. not wanting to pay for welfare. and stamps. but i also don’t want to pay for abortions. that’s the responsibility of the 2 people who made the baby and if they want a dead baby or babies why do i have to pay for it? give it to them free and they will just abort more!
I’m equally sick of the ”I’m a single mother” sympathy ploy. WHY are you a single mother?
There are about as many answers to that question as there are single mothers. Some of them you’d probably consider valid, some not. Maybe her husband died; maybe he left her. Maybe she left him. Maybe he was hitting her or maybe she just wanted to see other people, in the most euphemistic sense of the phrase. Maybe she has no idea who he is; maybe he’s her rapist.
Pretty much the only answer YOU can know, to that question, is, “She is a single mother in part because she did not abort her child.” Everything else, you’re free to ask.
One day, I was late getting to the commuter train I take to work when visiting my parents’ house, and I didn’t have time to buy my ticket before boarding – not for lack of trying, though; I had my wallet out and everything but just didn’t have enough time to actually swipe my card. I was moderately annoyed, because it’s more expensive to buy it on the train – but I was DEVASTATED when the ticket guy came to collect my money and I realized I must have dropped my wallet in my sprint for the train. Without my wallet, I had no cash to buy a ticket and no proof of address so that he could send me a bill in the mail. It was horrible. I don’t cry easily but I couldn’t help begging him not to kick me off the train at the next stop, and as I did that, three people nearby offered to buy my ticket for me. I was mortified and ashamed, but I had no choice but to accept their help. I tried to take names and addresses but they all waved my concerns away and said that they take this same exact train every morning, to work, and that we’d surely run into each other again at some point. I don’t take that train regularly but every time I’m on it, I try to find them. The truth is, without their help, I would have been late to work and missed a vitally important meeting with government regulators. As I am a freelancer, my boss would probably have not hired me for the next project that came up, because even despite working together for four years it would have been pretty much a deal-breaker for me to miss that meeting. I literally would be worrying about paying rent now, if a stranger had not given me $12 one morning eight months ago. I did not deserve that man’s money but I certainly did appreciate him giving it to me anyway.
I didn’t see this woman in the video selling her food stamps or the grocer buying them to redeem at full price. I didn’t see her even asking for help. I saw her make a mistake, maybe as simple as thinking some items were on sale when they weren’t, maybe as careless as not realizing she was so close to her limit. People make mistakes. No one is required to take away the sting of anyone else’s mistakes but it sure is a nicer world when we give it a shot.
klynn, I agree that broadly speaking when it comes to food stamps, there must be some sort of way to give “real food” a leg up on “convenient food,” and “smart shopping” an edge over “it’s not a meal unless it has meat!” I’m not smart enough to know what that is. Sometimes I think about something like having an introductory course – how to shop and eat frugally, basic techniques for cooking basic foods – to go along with getting on food stamps. But I don’t really know how I feel about the implications of that. I do think that a lot of financially and physically unwise eating habits are a result of spending a generation or two increasingly separated from food preparation, and the ignorance that results from that schism, even more than laziness or entitlement or just liking Doritos. I say this as someone who didn’t learn to cook growing up and who still struggles to eat frugally, due to lack of time and lack of skill. And I’m in a fairly privileged position! I can’t imagine if I had kids to worry about on top of just time and taste.
they don’t marry the babies dad cuz women’s lib and empty headed actresses like Jennifer aniston asks “who needs men around to. raise children”?
The scenario I more often see (as in, weekly) is a cart piled high with full-price items I can’t afford being paid with EBT while I am maximizing my coupons on the double coupon days and scouting the in-store deals (2 for $x.xx). It is difficult for me to wrap my head around the purchase of 8 different packages of meat when I can count on one hand the times we have meat per month in my single parent household.
Ha. :) I always used to marvel at the meats, etc, that were purchased with food stamps when I was a grocery checker. Stuff that I couldn’t afford to buy for my family even today, 15 years later. Guess if I want steak I need to get some food stamps. ;)
Seriously, though, in situations like this, we should use our own best judgment at the time and if we feel we can help someone with groceries, we should do what we feel is best.
Another good idea is to direct people to the nearest food pantry, if your town has them (and many do). Help with the need right now and give the address or phone number of the local food pantry. As someone who has used food pantries in the past when in need, I’m grateful for their existence.
Yeah, h, that’s exactly why I’m a single mother. Give me a break.
Good tip on the food pantries, Kel! I have pointed people in the direction of pantries or church meals in the past, as well. I really should get better acquainted with the ones in my area, though.
len, whatever your circumstances were and are, it’s apparent to anyone who reads your words that you are an intelligent, rational, compassionate person. I don’t think anyone in his right mind would think you have ever done anything except the best you could do, for you and your child. Any kid would be lucky to have you!
I never give money, but I have bought food and groceries for people before. . I bought a homeless person a meal in san fran once and I watched him split it with another homeless person. And then I’ve seen scammers come into our local food pantry and pretend they are two single people to get double monthly allotments for the same household. So, it really just depends on the circumstances. Use your judgment and I say when in doubt, err on the side of kindness.
With homeless folks, it’s nice to not just buy them a meal, but eat with them. It could be in a sit-down restaurant or on a park bench — but just sharing a meal with them is kind of nice and social. Food is not their only need, in other words.
Be in a public place when doing so, though. Some homeless folk are pretty nuts. A naive do-gooder attitude can get you in over your head. Boundaries, etc.
Len i didn’t say all single moms
i did know a handful of women where the father s died
i was including myself in the last statement but I’m married now but you must admit that plenty of women don’t. marry do you know. why?
Len aniston did make that comment and came under alot of fire!
please excuse my typos I’m typing from an i phone and the keyboard is very sensitive. anyway Len I’m sure. you’re a great mom and Alexandria is right. there are lots of reasons people don’t. stay together! so peace. i now must go and shower. i have to visit my friend in the hospital she had to have a hysterectomy due to a fibroid. I’ve. just got to hold women’s lib for some of this
ok later
This show always makes me cry. In a good way.
Food is not there only need, in other words.
Rasquel
Your so right. I think the homeless sometimes for whatever reason their spirit has just shut down and the very act of treating someone with grace and dignity might be what brings them back. I’ve had to stay in shelters on three different occasions in my own life and will always remember the individuals who reached out with love and respected my humanity. Once I was at a shelter and was outside changing my tire because I had to go to work. The director who in my opinion is a saint came outside to help me change my tire. I’ll never forget that. Of course I’ll also never forget when going to receive aid after I left the shelter the amount of stuff that sat in their attic while women who had left the shelter struggled. A lot of times in America it’s not because we don’t have what people need it’s because it’s not being distributed properly another example that comes to mind though not dealing with just the homeless is when the city of New York hired someone to be in charge of that cities school district. I forget her name but she was not liked because she expected that students receive a quality education, so of course she stepped on a lot of toes. Anyway while touring the school district she could not believe the amount of books and school supplies that were suppose to be for students that had not been made available to them supplies that sat in rooms while students did without. In America anyway, because we are still free and people tend to want to help people I believe often it’s not because provision is lacking but rather those who control the provision are lacking. Of course their own lack is often not as apparent as those who do without. Sometimes they themselves experience financial lack and sometimes it’s just lack of heart.
Alexandra: I have bought groceries for people in the past. Sometimes in line when someone couldn’t pay, and on rare occasions when someone approached me and asked me to help them feed their children for a few nights. I don’t give money to people, but I have never had a problem giving food to people; if someone wants to walk through the store with me and pick out a few staples for herself, I’m glad to be part of that.
Good for you, Alexandra. I’ve done it a few times too, usually because I’m impatient to get them out of the way. ; )
Alexandra
Another reason but one that is often not considered is that a lot of food that is unhealthy for us such as doritos contain msg and msg is addicting. Not only is it addicting but it is so not good for us. A lot of snacks we know are unhealthy like Doritos contain MSG some items like the little packets we buy to make gravies also contain msg. A lot of foods that are cheaper unfortunately also contain msg such as ramen noodles. The little flavor packet has it. So people who have had to deal with poverty for more than one generation especially if they come from a large family could I believe because of their eating habits that were formed at an earlier age probably be more predisposed to poor eating habits because of this. Google MSG and see what you find there are even conspiracy theories regarding the product. Conspiracy or not the facts are it is not good for you. I believe anytime we do something that is not good for us we do harm to our body. And a body that is not healthy is usually not at its best capacity when making decisions so the cycle continues. I try to eat healthy and compared to a lot of people I do but at the same time compared to people who eat really healthy I don’t but eating really healthy is my goal.
Years ago, there were relatively few single mothers. What can be done to ensure that more babies are born within low-conflict, stable, financially secure marriages?
http://www.aol.com/2011/08/11/alabama-church-brawl-pastor-tased-stabbed_n_924672.html?icid=maing-grid10%7Chtmlws-main-bb%7Cdl9%7Csec1_lnk3%7C85826
Stabbings, tasings, a massive brawl at an Alabama church… These people are known Dorito-eaters.
aww. Doug. you really are sweet.
Tell them to GET MARRIED!
“Get married…. and put down the Doritos!”
Myrtle, I didn’t know that Doritos have MSG in them, but once in a while – yeah, they can be addicting. You haven’t had any for a while, you’re hungry, you get that bag of ‘Nacho Cheese’ Doritos, open it up, wow those are good.
Okay, anybody making judgmental remarks about single mothers, I hope you are not pretending to be either pro-life or Christian, because that attitude is completely antithetical to both. It’s exactly the thing pro-aborts attack pro-lifers for. Nobody needs your approval to get a divorce or have children. Maybe she saved her children from abortion. Maybe her husband left her and she is trying her best to provide for her family.
I’ll give money to someone who asks – I keep small bills in a front pocket for quick needs, so when someone asks me for change, I give them that. I am a single woman, so I don’t like handling cash on the street, for fear of getting mugged, but giving to the poor is a good work so I hope God will protect me. As for what the person does with the money, that’s on their own head and none of my concern.
Denise Noe,
I honestly believe you are sincere in your questions but I find your view to be a bit narrow. You focus on one aspect and propose that we work to that end. And I can’t make much sense of your thoughts at times.
Chaperoned dating? Making sure all homes are stable? How will you ensure that I and my children will ALWAYS be in a financially secure marriage? Who wouldn’t want EVERY child in a low conflict home?
Some things you nor I have any control over. So we work with what we can. We start in our own homes, we start with our children, we reach out to others with the truth and we do the best we can.
oh for Pete’s sake I Do GIVE. not judging. anyone i hold the door for little. old ladies. and men on walkers!
i think that we all agree that we don’t wish to pay for people’s drug habits when some lie and say they need food
Clarice, I agree with you 100%. And thank you for standing up for single mothers.
Doug
Do some research on MSG. Make better and educated choices. Those are my goals anyway, not there yet but making a real effort.
Jacqueline wrote a perfect response to Clarice’s question on a different thread. I don’t remember which thread, unfortunately.
For those afraid of being scammed:
If you’ve never been scammed, you probably haven’t tried to help very many people standing before you in a moment of need. Scamming goes with the territory, but is not sufficient reason to deny another person assistance. Plenty of organized charities outright waste money, and fatten their executives with huge salaries.
Give the assistance and let God sort it all out.
yes Clarice thank. you because i was a single mother to my oldest two kids
and besides helping strangers i devoted my life to helping people when i became. a nurse.
Carla says:
August 12, 2011 at 9:12 am
Denise Noe,
I honestly believe you are sincere in your questions but I find your view to be a bit narrow. You focus on one aspect and propose that we work to that end. And I can’t make much sense of your thoughts at times.
Chaperoned dating? Making sure all homes are stable? How will you ensure that I and my children will ALWAYS be in a financially secure marriage? Who wouldn’t want EVERY child in a low conflict home?
(Denise) I don’t propose reviving chaperoned dating as a magic bullet. I think a campaign to bring this practice back is worthwhile. When young people who are attracted to each other are together, “making out” tends to naturally follow. This process leads to all manner of tragedies. It also tends to short-circuit the process of actually GETTING TO KNOW the other person in terms of interests, values, attitudes, likes and dislikes — the sorts of things we need to know for a committed relationship such as marriage to follow.
We can work on things that lead to financial stability. For example, many people including myself have proposed a guaranteed annual income. Another measure might be to work to make it possible for people to support themselves — and families — at younger ages. If people marry young, it is more likely that they will wait for marriage for sex. There are ways to improve the circumstances in which children grow up. We ought to know it can be done since widespread single motherhood is — relatively speaking — a recent phenomenon. This doesn’t mean we have to “go retro” but it does mean more babies born within marriage is a realistic goal.
Gotta chime in here since I’ve been in social work for merely a decade now- and as a single mother who also happens to be a virgin. (Yep- virgin single mom- a virgin in large part because I didn’t want to be a single mother for the sake of children who deserve two parents).
The truth, whether we like it or not is that having children OUT OF WEDLOCK CAUSES POVERTY. This is undeniable. Never-married (not divorced- NEVER MARRIED) mothers and their children make a vast majority of the poor in American. Yes, those women could have been impoverished before they had children, but having children is not a means out of poverty and increases the odds that they will stay impoverished. It also lends for those children to have children out-of-wedlock and stay impoverished too. Having children out of wedlock is a BAD thing. Killing children is a WORSE thing, but it doesn’t make having children out-of-wedlock good because there was a worse alternative. Heralding women who made a bad choice simply because they could have made a worse choice does not negate the consequences of the initial bad choice.
Worse, the term “single mother” is exploited to be “a heroic, strong brave woman who DESERVES our help.” Now, anyone in help should get help (given that help doesn’t enable or exacerbate the underlying problem), but any time my friends or anyone plays the “I’m a single mom” card as “a means to a charitable end” get the business-end of my indignant scorn- since the only women I find using this ploy are women who are single moms by CHOICE not circumstance. They aren’t divorcees or widows. They had sex while single, had babies why single and are thus a single mom. No confusion there. They chose to create children in an unjust situation who suffer for a lifetime at a disadvantage. This does not make these women heroic AT ALL. It makes them perpetrators and their kids victims. Women can chose to try to redeem their bad choices as much as possible but can rarely, if ever, fix them. Those women however that use the “single mother” excuse typically don’t see themselves as anyone who made a bad choice but instead, made a heroic choice and should be heralded and cared for because of their bravery. The first step to remedying this situation is to admit that it needs fixing, not use it to get charity. Treating single mothers like heroes for not aborting their child is like heralding criminals that don’t shoot the witnesses as heroes- they could have done a worse thing (murder) to get away with their initial bad choice (crime) too. Since a these them could have done a worse thing (murder) to get away with a bad thing (sex out-of-wedlock) does not make them worthy of praise.
So I disagree with Alexandria that a single mother is deserving of my help for not aborting. She’s deserving of my help because she’s a human being, but I am not obligated to care for her child because she didn’t kill her child. That’s HER CHILD. She conceived him. I am happy to help when I can, but I have my own mouths to feed. I use coupons matched with sales to make the most of my hard-earned money, not other’s hard-earned money. When I don’t have the money for what I want, I don’t buy it. I don’t expect others to buy it because I’m a single mom. I, too am a single mom by choice (mostly circumstance, but also choice since I was single when I decided to parent), but I don’t wear “single mom” as a badge of pride. I hope for a father from my kids someday to compensate for the fathers that left them. All I can compensate for is the mother who left them.
So I disagree with Alexandria that a single mother is deserving of my help for not aborting. She’s deserving of my help because she’s a human being, but I am not obligated to care for her child because she didn’t kill her child.
I didn’t say she deserves your help because she didn’t have an abortion. I said the only thing you can know for sure when a woman says, “I’m a single mother,” is that she didn’t have an abortion. Which was in direct response to someone asking WHY IS SHE A SINGLE MOTHER ANYWAY. You don’t know – literally you know one thing about her, which is that she has a child.
I also very clearly said that everyone makes mistakes and that no one is obligated to take away or soothe the sting of another person’s mistake, but the world sure is a nicer place when we try to make each other’s lives better. Which has nothing to do with being a single mother or being, as illustrated in my anecdote, a single non-mother who carelessly lost her wallet.
I am sure your children are extremely lucky to have you, with or without a father. :)
Jacqueline: The truth, whether we like it or not is that having children OUT OF WEDLOCK CAUSES POVERTY. This is undeniable. Never-married (not divorced- NEVER MARRIED) mothers and their children make a vast majority of the poor in American. Yes, those women could have been impoverished before they had children, but having children is not a means out of poverty and increases the odds that they will stay impoverished. It also lends for those children to have children out-of-wedlock and stay impoverished too. Having children out of wedlock is a BAD thing. Killing children is a WORSE thing, but it doesn’t make having children out-of-wedlock good because there was a worse alternative. Heralding women who made a bad choice simply because they could have made a worse choice does not negate the consequences of the initial bad choice.
Not commenting on anything but the economic issues – WOW, good post, Jacqueline.
Myrtle: Doug, Do some research on MSG. Make better and educated choices. Those are my goals anyway, not there yet but making a real effort.
Myrtle, you are one of the most sincere, well-intentioned posters, ever. On one hand, yes – you are so right about what is our “common American diet,” often. On the other hand, that I’m here writing this is testament to how much abuse the human organism can stand. ; )
Jacqueline you just slammed that one outta the park!well put!
Jacqueline i knew a woman who told everyone “I’m a single mom” and it got to be annoying after a while! we have single dads too. it’s almost like some single moms want credit and are quick to discount dads
and i met a woman who proudly announced. that. she listed all 5 of her kids with an unknown dad
on their birth certificate i asked her why and she explained “to keep my welfare “
H-
I have men use the “I’m a single dad” thing as a pick-up line, implying that they are loving, responsible, caring sensitive and blah blah blah. Ironically, I don’t get any of that. I don’t think being a single dad is something to be proud of- rather a mark of bad choices like single motherhood. Except in the rare case of spousal death like in the movies, it’s most often the sign that the man who wants to pick me up has VERY BAD taste in women. For the courts to choose a father over a mother, that mother must be really, really bad news that abandoned the child or is otherwise unfit. Any woman not willing or suited to parent her children is not someone whose sloppy seconds I want. Men find it odd when I don’t coo and ooh and ahhh over them raising their own child alone when I blame them for picking such a horrible woman to mother their children. Their children suffer from that.
If a man is a single dad by circumstance rather than choice (like me) I am so down for the Brady Bunch thing. But the odds of the exception (me) with another, even rarer exception (him) is like getting hit by lightning twice in a row.
Jacqueline, if you are a virgin, how did you get to be a single mother?
Also, how old are you?
I didn’t want to have either children OR an abortion so I was a technical virgin until I was 24 and had undergone a tubal ligation. When I moved in with my boyfriend at age 20, my parents were concerned about a possible pregnancy but there was no such possibility.
Denise, it’s too lengthy to recount. In sum, children came into my life in various ways who needed homes. I have a home. Seems like a no-brainer. I am 31 next month. Self-mutilation is not an option for me just so I can have sex before marriage. I’d also love to have biological children someday if it happens, but marriage is not my priority. I got stuff going on and for whatever “help” a husband might be (minimal help if any- wives are tremendous help, husbands are like having full-grown children), I don’t have it in me to take care of my business and a man, too.
I am surprised you could get a tubal at 24, but don’t forget, women do conceive with tubal ligations. Babies who do get conceived are more likely to lodge in the mutilated tube and die there, but only after cutting you back open to remove the tube and child. I don’t know why they don’t just take the tubes.
It makes me really sad that you felt that destroying your reproductive organs was preferable to waiting for sex until marriage or ever having children, since you had the self-control to co-habitate for 4 years and not have sex. What makes you not want children or are afraid to have them? My sister has sworn off children because she doesn’t want to pass down her genetic predispositions to certain illnesses. Is that your situation?
yes Jacqueline things do happen
most of the single men I’ve. met have lost spouses to death but. alot of women do in fact have kids without marriage and then they get upset when the dads don’t. step up to the plate. as for the woman who was always saying that she was a single mom well there were times i think she said. it to play the victim! it was often the first sentence out of her mouth
the only point i will disagree with Jacqueline on is a tubal ligation
I’d rather see someone chose that or a man chose a vasectomy
Jacqueline
Sounds like you had very good and loving parents. I’m assuming that because if your post reflects the reality of who you are it sounds like you have made very good choices. When making characterizations of single women I’d like to give you some food for thought. A lot of women that you speak so negatively of have had good parents and just made bad choices and/or singleness is something they’ve chosen for themselves. There are also women who had parents who might have done the best they could with what they had but just didn’t know to much about parenting, setting boundaries etc.. An even worse scenario for a young women who has parents who don’t understand the logic of setting boundaries is to have agencies who of course should have the best interest of the child or teenager at heart but alas for whatever reason have still not learned that boundaries are a good thing and/or just don’t really care, actually compound the existing problem. Those were my circumstances. Thankfully at the age of 23 I found myself in a Pentecostal church and found the God I had always loved as a child. So now I practice abstinence because I know it’s not only the moral thing to do but it brings tremendous freedom to my life. The only real thing your post accomplished for me is to help me see how hurtful a dismissive attitude toward anyone can truly be. So next time when giving your opinion on single moms try to take a closer look at how government plays a major role in contributing to the delinquincy of minors and perhaps doing some serious advocacy work to change that would be of benefit to your mindset. Good luck. For women who have encountered tremendous abuse in their own lives your lack of sympathy could actually be a contributing factor to ensure that further abuse occurs. When I was put on birth control at the age of 16 my sense of self took a serious dive and had it not been for a church that preached the full gospel I’m not sure where I would be today.
Myrtle,
You say “Take a closer look at how government plays a major role in contributing to the delinquency of minors and perhaps doing some serious advocacy work to change that would be of benefit to your mindset”- My mindset was FORMED by nearly a decade of such work. That’s a big part of my career and why I got my degrees in social work. I know how the system is designed to keep people down. You choose to ignore my statements as FACTUAL STATEMENTS and instead interpret them as BLAME. My factual statement is that out-of-wedlock pregnancy and parenting contributes to poverty in a cycle that continues till someone breaks it. This is the truth. There is nothing accusatory about that truth. No matter what tragic circumstances (like fatherlessness or abuse/neglect) contribute to single parenthood, single parenthood has consequences. Bad, bad consequences that can only be mitigated by realizing that they are bad and choosing to fix them. If we don’t know that effects are bad, how can we avoid the cause?
ALL THINGS ARE NOT EQUAL. Never have been, never will be. My godsons have two loving parents. My goddaughters were abused and abandoned by both of their parents. Are my godsons better, more deserving of what they have than my goddaughters? NO! My goddaughters just got screwed by adults making bad choices and because of what my girls lacked (a father) and the molestation they endured, they are more apt to seek validation/comfort through sex at a young age in spite of my efforts to avoid that. Would it be their “fault” if they got pregnant because they were victims from birth? It certainly would HURT THEM and their kids all the same. Because regardless of the circumstance that contributes to a bad choice, bad choices have bad consequences. It’s physics. Noting that sex out of wedlock (for any reason) is a BAD CHOICE rather than a normal, commendable thing is important because many people just don’t know. The mother of my godsons is the oldest of a large welfare family (7) with a never-married abusive mother. She doesn’t know who her father is. She still figured out at 13 that sex=babies and babies caused the life she was living and the only way out was abstinence and education. She did both, and now my godsons have what she never had and will likely have children of their own in good circumstances rather than bad. She didn’t create more victims like my goddaughters. THAT is commendable. While we could *understand* if she, not knowing another life, got pregnant, it would still be BAD. We understand why all her siblings did and the stark contrast between their lives (and the lives of their children) proves my point.
It doesn’t matter what circumstances led to the bad choice to conceive out of wedlock- it is a bad choice. It’s also a bad choice most women make MORE THAN ONCE. As someone that works in social welfare, I find very few single mothers only have one child. They didn’t see anything bad about the first choice and repeated it. Maybe it’s because we glorify them for not making it worse with an abortion. We are devolving as a society when something bad becomes good because there was a worse option.
There will be a million compelling, sad reasons why people self-medicate with destructive choices (drugs, alcohol, sex). I can realize that all day long and have compassion for what they are dealt that leads them to seek comfort in these disordered things. But at the end of the day, you can’t ignore that they are hurting themselves. It’s not loving to use their circumstances to justify letting them continue. It’s loving to address the true problem they have. At the very least, they need to know that what they seek doesn’t make it better- it makes it worse.
Miss Myrtle, I challenge you to work in social services for a little bit and your rose-colored glasses will assuredly come off. Compassion with action changes things. Just feeling sorry for people’s circumstances without showing them the cause and offering an alternative DOES NOT. I am glad you teach abstinence. I’m a big part of that campaign myself.
P.S. I did have good parents. I could have easily been where many girls are as impoverished single mothers- but I’m not because for whatever reason- I DIDN’T HAVE SEX. It’s very simple. My best friend didn’t have good parents. She could have could have easily been where many girls are as impoverished single mothers- but she’s not because for whatever reason- SHE DIDN’T HAVE SEX. Different backgrounds, same choice=same, good outcomes. Now, if I had a great background and made a different choice (HAVE SEX), we’d have a different, bad outcome for me. It’s all about choices and we need to tell kids no matter where they are from and what they’ve endured- they CAN make the right choices.
Jacqueline says:
August 13, 2011 at 1:55 pm
Denise, it’s too lengthy to recount. In sum, children came into my life in various ways who needed homes. I have a home. Seems like a no-brainer. I am 31 next month. Self-mutilation is not an option for me just so I can have sex before marriage. I’d also love to have biological children someday if it happens, but marriage is not my priority. I got stuff going on and for whatever “help” a husband might be (minimal help if any- wives are tremendous help, husbands are like having full-grown children), I don’t have it in me to take care of my business and a man, too.>>
(Denise) If husbands don’t contribute but are a burden rather than being co-parents with whom to share burdens and responsibilities, then it would seem that single mother hood is ideal for women who want to become mothers! If you have a poor opinion of men, it would follow that you would have a poor opinion of matrimony.
<<I am surprised you could get a tubal at 24, but don’t forget, women do conceive with tubal ligations. Babies who do get conceived are more likely to lodge in the mutilated tube and die there, but only after cutting you back open to remove the tube and child. I don’t know why they don’t just take the tubes.>>
(Denise) Yes, that is a possibility. It might even be more likely in my case since I have a family history of such. My mother had an ectopic pregnancy in her fallopian tube. I told a high school friend about the pregnancy and how it ended and she asked, “Was your mom real sad after ward?” I relayed this to my mom who replied, “No, because there was no way for it to be born.”
It was relatively unlikely that this would happen because before I had my tubes tied, I was on the contraceptive pill, not for contraception but only to make my breasts grow — which it did. In many relationships, the man used a condom.
<<It makes me really sad that you felt that destroying your reproductive organs was preferable to waiting for sex until marriage or ever having children, since you had the self-control to co-habitate for 4 years and not have sex. >>
(Denise) We co-habited off and on, not for the entire 4 years. We also had an active, exciting, and fulfilling sex life. It just did not include the sort of sex that can result in pregnancy. My boyfriend was not that much interested in that type of sex and I would not take the chance on a pregnancy that could end in abortion. I tend to visualize things and I had very strong visual images of tiny arms and legs being ripped off in a usual suction abortion and the skin of a fetus being burned in a saline abortion. These were horrors to me so I couldn’t risk a pregnancy.
<<What makes you not want children or are afraid to have them? My sister has sworn off children because she doesn’t want to pass down her genetic predispositions to certain illnesses. Is that your situation?>>
(Denise) Not quite. However, I am severely handicapped due to a psychiatric disorder which would make it likely that a baby in my care would be neglected or even — in some sense — abused because being around me when I am symptomatic would constitute a kind of abuse of a child.
In addition, my basic personality and interests are such that I am not suited to care for babies or children in any capacity.
“If husbands don’t contribute but are a burden rather than being co-parents with whom to share burdens and responsibilities, then it would seem that single mother hood is ideal for women who want to become mothers!”
All children have fathers. It’s biologically impossible for them not I to. I think the onus is on the woman to pick a man who WILL be REAL FATHERS. Now, single motherhood is fine if it doesn’t happen at the additional expense to a child. I think there are many situations where children are in institutions and one parent is preferable to none. I do think women creating children without fathers are making victims.
If you have a poor opinion of men, it would follow that you would have a poor opinion of matrimony.
I have issues, that’s true. They don’t speak anything about men or marriage- they only speak about me. They are my issues. It comes from seeing my happily married friends and even those that picked GOOD men, the best kind of men, those men still have needs. I don’t have any needs I can’t meet on my own. Wants, yes. Needs, no. Men have NEEDS. The cost of having to meet a man’s needs to me is not worth the benefit of having them around. I am hoping my heart will change on this. Maybe if I find someone who I deem worth the effort, it will change. With so many women who WANT to be married, it would seem wrong and wasteful though for me to get what they want when I am not capable of appreciating it.
Not quite. However, I am severely handicapped due to a psychiatric disorder which would make it likely that a baby in my care would be neglected or even — in some sense — abused because being around me when I am symptomatic would constitute a kind of abuse of a child. In addition, my basic personality and interests are such that I am not suited to care for babies or children in any capacity.
It seems to me that if the consequences are that dire, sex isn’t worth any risk at all. You would have to give your child to someone else. That’s painful.
Jacqueline
Of course but before you get to speak of any rights and wrongs you need to be able to stand up to the system that is a serious contributor to juvenile delinquency. I’m very sorry for what happened to your family members. I’m the youngest of my siblings and it’s very easy to see the difference between those who were raised in a two parent home and those who weren’t. I think there should be a balance between what government does to help and the very limited role they have in assuming the role of parent which they do and inner cities can attest to the very poor job they’ve done. I think when government becames involved in peoples private lives in their own way they tried to legislate morality. It is impossible to legislate morality. True morality is a decision made by a person and their own belief system. And of course it can all be traced back to choice. Often when feeling that somehow I had been cheated of good parenting God was always gracious enough to show me people that despite tremendous obstacles had still managed to make the right choices. He was and is also good enough to show me the hypocrisy of the welfare state. I would never become a social worker I think the system does not put enough value on the hearts, minds and souls of young people. I think they sell them out. And I also believe it makes to many excuses for parents who contribute to their own childrens delinquency. If I had the resources what I would do is have some type of campaign just to teach young people that they have real freedom of choice and that the better decisions they make the better their lives will be and the lives of their children should they choose to have children. Kind of like what good parents do. I’m 47 should you desire to use a salutation when addressing me you can address me as Ms. Miller or if you prefer Ms. Myrtle. And I also believe that compassion in addition to tough love work. Anytime any system assumes the role of parent it has to be a role that is within the legal bounds of the law. Currently our system is breaking the law. Contributing to the delinquency of minors is illegal. In fairness to those you attempt to make characterizations of if you are cognizant of this fact and continue to do so it is just not honest. The glasses I look through are not rose colored I was sold out by my mother and my state something that continues to happen to young people. I think after you have preached to those who are serious contributors to the current situation than you would be justified in preaching to those who will be making better choices.
Ms. Miller,
Uh-oh CULTURAL MIS-COMMUNICATION! We need to fix that right now! :)
In the South (particularly Texas where I was born and raised), the way we show respect for everyone is “Miss” or “Mr.” in front of their first name except for truly formal addresses. It has nothing to do with marital status. For teachers or strangers, it is full salutation and last name, but when that’s considered awkward or too formal, we want to show familiarity but still convey respect. The way we do that is by “Miss” or “Mr.” first name. It’s considered too formal to call a co-worker for example “Mrs. Smith” but there is no way properly-raised Texan is going to refer to an elder or someone they respect by merely their first name. So the 50-year-old secretary at the agency that takes projects from we young ‘uns is “Miss Denise.” It’s hard to explain, but the father of my godsons (6 years my elder) calls me “Miss Jackie.” Come to think about that, we do it as a sign of respect with everybody. The 22-year-old student worker that copies my syllabi for my classes is Miss Lindsay. It’s used all the time everywhere with everyone, but especially when it’s socially-awkward to call someone by their last name but not acceptable to us to refer to them by only their first name. I will address you as you prefer, but I felt the need to explain so you know it was not meet to be audacious or condescending. This is good to know if you ever visit Texas. :)
“I would never become a social worker I think the system does not put enough value on the hearts, minds and souls of young people. I think they sell them out.”
The system is broken. This is why I work in private faith-based non-profits that work. But I must point out that your condemnation of the profession of social work is dead wrong. It’s not the profession conspiring with the welfare state to keep people down. Social workers are the most vocal advocates of REFORM. We know it’s broken because we deal with the failures and traps every day. We are making the best out of a bad situation while trying to change the situation. We don’t cop out and stop trying to do whatever we can because the system is bad. That sounds like an excuse to me. I don’t think those who aren’t making excuses and are in the trenches doing their best with a bad situation deserve your condemnation or scorn. Especially since your opinion isn’t based on reality, but your misperception of our profession.
In fairness to those you attempt to make characterizations of if you are cognizant of this fact and continue to do so it is just not honest. The glasses I look through are not rose colored I was sold out by my mother and my state something that continues to happen to young people.
We have a pot, kettle, black situation. Your characterizations are based on your INDIVIDUAL situation. My characterizations are based on the collective situations of hundreds of clients I’ve interacted with and years studying social welfare. You can only speak to your situation. I speak to the whole of the system. Your opinions based on your frame of reference might not be accurate of the whole picture. Mine might not be either, but they speak to more than just my “feelings” on how things should be. Everyone has their values. I am not saying yours are good, bad, wrong, any of the above. But my statements aren’t value-based- they are fact-based. I am not arguing opinions. I am stating facts. I just want to point out that any opinions you form should be likewise based in fact.
Jacqueline
I’m from the south also. I’m from Louisiana and to refer to someone as Miss So and So is usually reserved for people you know and it too is a way of expressing respect but I’ve never been addressed as Miss Myrtle by someone I didn’t know. When addressing me Myrtle works fine for me. Something else when posting I believe capitalizing any word is almost like shouting. please try to speak to me and not at me. :) I condemned the system I didn’t condemn social workers. Your own posts condemn you someone who has worked for years as a social worker and even admits to working for reform is well aware of the challenges women face and as a social worker I’m sure you learned also in school not to make such sweeping generalizations. I find very few of your statements fact based I find them to be very biased. You say you’ve spent years studying social welfare. Lets look at your concept of years. How many years did it take you to get your degree? I’m assuming four maybe six so by the time you graduated that would give you nine years of field work the real stuff. I’m 47 I’ve seen the wisdom of the system since I was young I seen the ignorance of the system since I was a teen and in recent years have heard stories of mothers being “encouraged” to put their daughters on birth control at very early ages. Nine years is not a drop in the ocean but its not nearly enough time to think that you have a clue what some women have gone through. It is long enough though to have figured out that the system needs serious reform and knowing that should affect the types of generalizations you make. I’m sorry if I offended you I was referring to the system. In my lifetime I met one social worker who in my opinion was a saint. I really could have used her intervention though at a much earlier age but when she did come along she really made a difference in my life. Hope this helps you to better process all those facts.
Myrtle- It took four years (standard for my BSW) and a year and a half for my MSW (a little faster than normal). Social workers are required to do 400+ hours of practicum as both a B and an M student, not to mention log volunteer hours. A social work student comes out of college with experience and diverse experience based on the requirements to work in a variety of agencies during school. I’ve been out of school and in the field 6 years, 5 of which I’ve still been studying on top of my career for my Ph.D.- I mention this not to get into some sort of pissing contest with you over who knows more, but because you have had 17 years on me to “see” with your biased eyes whatever you want to see does not make your opinion any more valid than mine or mine more valid than yours just because I have been studying this for 11 years. The difference between education and experience though is that education forces people to read stuff and study stuff and look at things they wouldn’t choose to if it weren’t required. That’s why armchair professionals that read what they please about a topic and claim to be an expert rightly have no authority, regardless of how much they have sought on their own. Your citing your 17 years of life more than I have and how you are too good to be a social worker just seems like a desperate ploy to keep spouting your values based on your experience ”being you” but do very little else. I don’t have to defend what I do and what my profession does to someone who likely uses criticisms of us to conveniently escape doing anything at all.
My generalizations are correct. Out-of-wedlock children and their mothers constitute the largest percentage of poor (google the feminization of poverty). This is true. I don’t like it either, but it doesn’t cease to be true. I don’t decide what’s true. Neither do you.
And I’ll quit “yelling at you” with my caps when you cease being so insufferably condascending. Actually, no. I’m just done. Your disgenious feigning of manners when you are in fact, horribly rude (all caps, oh my goodness! how deplorable!) is not something I want to endure further.
Jacqueline I’ve always thought you’ve made some of the best points i enjoy reading your posts
Jaqueline
Wow, six years of field work. Of course you are more than entitled to share how you feel on a subject you know so much about. Your generalizations are very hurtful and if anyone should know better it’s an individual that supposedly takes pride in what she does and calls herself a social worker. Not once have I said anything negative about social workers. I instead pointed out the challenges of the system that a lot of social workers have to work with. But when you lack substance it is much easier to draw attention away from your own lack of regard for people you are suppose to be helping than to admit when your wrong. I think you probably know a lot more about feigning good manners than I ever will an observation that your own attitude towards people you supposedy know so much about and have so little regard for proves. Your like someone who has mastered (?) the art of swimming and whose job it is to teach others this vital skill and after those whom you teach have endured situations your nightmares know nothing about instead of having any degree of gratitude that you have not walked in their shoes, instead of being thankful for that, you have the audacity to make their jouney even harder by spouting facts. Just facts don’t bring healing to people. Facts and compassion do. I think social workers are like people who work in hospitals sometimes because of their job description they get burnt out and are in need of the same compassion they give to others. And six years probably more than qualifies you for that. Anytime you need to fuss a little and it makes you feel better I can handle that most women who are having a difficult time of it shouldn’t have too. Should you continue to feel righteous about all your facts try to direct your facts towards the system that daily sabatages the souls of people there suppose to be helping(?). Good luck. Sorry if I sounded condescending it’s probably just a defense mechanism to help me process your very, very rude unprofessional attitude.
Love your posts Jacqueline. Why did I think you were married? I can’t keep people straight.
Thank you H and CT.
Yeah, it is hard to remember personal details when you can’t put a face with a name. I think that’s why so many of us found each other on Facebook. This is my Facebook. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=23932888
The profile picture is my son that I’m trying to bring home. I’d rather look at his face than my own- although I am blonde/blue eyed and white too. If you want to associate my posts with that perfect face, I’d be honored. I just have to remember to never post profanity. :)
Love those cheeks! I will associate you w/ that face but imagine him shaking his head and wagging a finger if you slip up on the profanity :-)