Holocaust heroine dies
From the Associated Press, May 12:
Warsaw, Poland – Irena Sendler – a Polish social worker who helped save some 2,500 Jewish children from the Nazis by smuggling them out of the Warsaw Ghetto and giving them false identities – has died. She was 98….
Born in Warsaw, Sendler served as a social worker with the city’s welfare department, masterminding the risky rescue operations of Jewish children from the Warsaw Ghetto during Nazi Germany’s brutal World War II occupation….
Records show that Sendler’s team of some 20 people saved nearly 2,500 children from the Warsaw Ghetto between October 1940 and April 1943, when the Nazis burned the ghetto, shooting the residents or sending them to death camps.
Under the pretext of inspecting the ghetto’s sanitary conditions during a typhoid outbreak, Sendler and her assistants went inside in search of children who could be smuggled out and given a chance of survival by living as Catholics.
Babies and small children were smuggled out in ambulances and in trams, sometimes wrapped up as packages. Teenagers escaped by joining teams of workers forced to labor outside the ghetto. They were placed in families, orphanages, hospitals or convents.
In hopes of one day uniting the children with their families – most of whom perished in the Nazis’ death camps – Sendler wrote the children’s real names on slips of paper that she kept at home.
When German police came to arrest her in 1943, an assistant managed to hide the slips, which Sendler later buried in a jar under an apple tree in an associate’s yard. Some 2,500 names were recorded.
“It took a true miracle to save a Jewish child,” Elzbieta Ficowska, who was saved by Sendler’s team as a baby in 1942, recalled in an AP interview in 2007. “Mrs. Sendler saved not only us, but also our children and grandchildren and the generations to come.”
After World War II, Sendler worked as a social welfare official and director of vocational schools, continuing to assist some of the children she rescued.
In 1965, Sendler became one of the first so-called Righteous Gentiles honored by the Yad Vashem Holocaust memorial in Jerusalem for wartime heroics. Poland’s communist leaders at that time would not allow her to travel to Israel; she collected the award in 1983….
Such a beautiful woman and story. Someday many in the pro-life movement, like sidewalk counselors outside abortion mills, will be similarly honored.
[Photos courtesy of the AP]
Jill Stanek is a nurse turned speaker, columnist and blogger, a national figure in the effort to protect both preborn and postborn innocent human life.
How dare you, Jill. How dare you use the death this heroic woman to parallel your political agenda. You should be ashamed of yourself. This is truly a new low for you. I am absolutely disgusted with the depths you have sunk to.
What a heroine! What a beautiful story to wake up to. Thank you for posting this story, Jill.
Leah, what exactly do you feel is so insulting about Jill’s parallel? Does it really shock you so? Do you not believe by now that we recognize the unborn as full persons? We see them NO differently than born children. They are equal in worth to those children who were in danger of death by Nazi’s, and today the children are in danger by their own mothers and abortionists.
There have been thousands of children similarly saved from imminent torture and death by the pro-life efforts.
The parallel fits.
And by the way, this is a moral issue, it’s not about politics.
Leah, Are we reading the same story? (Irena Sendler?)
What a smile, she has the eyes of a child! God bless Irena.
I think the pictures speak volumes. Look at this beautiful woman compared to the picture of Mr. King below. That’s the difference between spending your life doing good or evil.
Leah – Get. A. Grip.
Janet, she really does have a child’s eyes. Her face just is beaming with love and affection. \
Oh my. She is as cute as a bug!! What an amazing woman and story.
“Someday many in the pro-life movement, like sidewalk counselors outside abortion mills, will be similarly honored.”
Ohhh right. Because thats such a dangerous job they are risking their lives for at every moment. You MUST be joking. If not, you’re just kidding yourself.
Its absolutley demented to try to compare yourselves to this woman because you protest something legal in a FREE country where the Constitution and the police PROTECT YOU when doing so.
I’m not sure I’d call this a low for you Jill, because its too ridiculous to take seriosly.
Until the last line, there was hope that Jill had finally developed some ethics. But alas, she still can’t help trying to steal validity for antichoice harassment to the Holocaust.
The AntiDefamation League takes a very dim view of such nonsense as it trivializes the Holocaust, as Leah reightly pointed out.
I take it very seriously, Amanda. Those children are very real, and are being led to torture chambers and death, and pro-life protestors and counselors risk being shot at, being abused, and being harassed and putin jail by corrupt police, just so that they can help children be allowed to live.
Jill posts all the time about pro-lifers who are being shot at, harassed, abused by pro-abortionists, and the police simply look away.
You may think the justice system is completely unbiased at all times, but it simply isn’t.
Thank you Jill for recognizing the heroism of
the front line rescuers of the pre-born, like my
friend, Jo.
Rain, sleet, snow, blazing heat never keep her away from
saving over 100 babies every year.
The posterity of the babies she saves make those hundreds
into thousands of lives into eternity . . . we’ll never know.
What an honor to occasionally be able to join her!
Wow, Lesforlife, what an awesome friend you have. 100 babies a year. That is wonderful!
And shame on me for not mentioning precious
Irena!
What a beautiful soul.
Doesn’t the joy of the Lord just radiate from her
face?
What an amazing role model of utter selflessness that
some of your posters might emulate.
“Jill posts all the time about pro-lifers who are being shot at, harassed, abused by pro-abortionists, and the police simply look away.
”
People being shot at “all the time”? Slight exaggeration? Could you show me an article about sidewalk counselors being shot at and the police just ignored it?
and you really don’t see the HUGE difference between a small group of people breaking the law and harassing some people (which Im in no way condoning) vs. a constant and persistant threat of death, torture, and disease? Come on now…
Amanda, I agree most pro-lifers do not risk death to save children, although there are those who have been jailed, fired, or endured 20 year court battles with their homes in limbo throughout, and a few who have been physically hurt, even killed.
The pro-life social justice movement battles in several realms – at the mills, through the courts, through changes of law, through apologetics and PR, through providing help to moms. Mostly pro-lifers sacrifice inordinate amounts of time and money.
We’re more equatable to slave abolitionists, although we do operate our version of the underground railroad – pregnancy care centers. Or we’re more equatable to Wilberforce, who fought slavery in England through the legislature.
The real heroines are the mothers in crisis who defy liberal or family pressure to abort. Some of those mothers have indeed died at the hands of boyfriends or fathers who harmed or killed them because they would not abort their children.
The pro-life movement is the largest social justice movement in U.S. history.
Speaking of history, just like the Holocaust and just like slavery and just like the child welfare movement and just like the civil rights movement, there is a right and a wrong side of it.
And sadly, you’re on the wrong side. Such heartbreak you’ll endure someday when you fathom the human toll thanks to the position you’ve taken.
Amanda 8:44am
The holocaust was legal, it was taking place under the law of an occupying power, Germany, which was the law in conquered Poland. The law and the police protected those rounding up and imprisoning Jews and depriving them of their rights. This woman’t actions were in blatant violation of the law. Anything legal was and is morally acceptable, right?
Also, where in the Constitution does it say anything about abortion?
No, please don’t change what I said. I didn’t say people are shot at “all the time”, I said that Jill posts “all the time” about all of those different scenarios I posted.
Amanda, I agree most pro-lifers do not risk death to save children, although there are those who have been jailed, fired, or endured 20 year court battles with their homes in limbo throughout, and a few who have been physically hurt, even killed.
Thank you, Jill, for clarifying for me. I didn’t want to give the impression that I feel they are under the threat of death all the time. I know it probably did sound that way, but that’s not what I intended. It is the children (and their mothers) who are in constant threat of imminent danger.
“Also, where in the Constitution does it say anything about abortion?”
Mary, I was talking about the right to protest…that our Constitution protects protesters as long as they are not harming people.
The real heroines are the mothers in crisis who defy liberal or family pressure to abort. Some of those mothers have indeed died at the hands of boyfriends or fathers who harmed or killed them because they would not abort their children.
YES!
Amanda,
My apologies. Your statement seems a little ambiguous, like it could apply to those having abortions, and I read it as such.
Jill,
Let’s keep in mind that those who owned slaves and treated black citizens as second class had the law and police on their side as well. They also did not take kindly to people out to deprive them of their “rights”. Civil rights “freedom riders” of the 1960’s, who were greeted with fists, clubs, and baseball bats on arrival at a bus station in the deep south being just one example.
Oh no worries, I type without re-reading what I wrote sometimes to make sure its clear.
This is essentially the same argument I was having with the Pro Choice girl in my Facebook group who was touting Roderick King as a hero and called me all sorts of names and told me I wasn’t truly pro choice because I thought that was a foolish and nasty thing he did…
Regardless of what is being protested and whether or not I support it (unless, like Fred Phelps, it is causing undeserved harm and misery to innocent people), I am grateful for the right to do so, and that it is a protected right in our Constitution.
Whereas in Nazi Germany, people like Sendler who, through her actions, protested the Holocaust, was in NO way protected – the opposite actually.
Thats why I don’t think its legitimate or fair to say that Pro Life protesters in the U.S. will ever be “similarly honored”. I think thats a BIG stretch.
If we were in a country where side walk counselors could be dragged off by police and tortured, as Sendler could have, I would feel differently, regardless of my opinion on abortion.
On October 25, 2003, pro-lifers Robert Rudny and Michael Walsh were kneeling in prayer next to a fence bordering the Albany Women’s Center abortion mill on North Elston Avenue. A Hispanic man on crutches on the other side of the fence, who had brought his girlfriend or wife to be aborted, had been cursing them and verbally abusing them for about half an hour. Then the pro-abortionist sprayed pepper spray over the fence into the eyes of the two men.
Rudny said that “He was a rabid, crazy man “who was screaming obscenities while we were praying the Rosary. I was looking down, praying my Rosary, and suddenly I felt this liquid on my face, and then my eyes and face were burning.”
Three other sidewalk counselors, Kathy Mieding, Brian Pabich and Michael Busse heard Rudny screaming and went to his aid. Rudny says he staggered across the street to the Women’s Center, a pro-life shelter and service, where he doused his eyes and face with water in the bathroom.
At the same time, at least three calls were placed to 911 to report the incident. Busse said, “We called the police, and then turned our attention to the attacker, but he was gone. He was handicapped and used some kind of brace, so he couldn’t have gotten far. No cars left the parking lot. He just disappeared.”
Thomas More Law Center volunteer Tim Murphy said today that he is interested in helping with Rudny’s legal case in the aftermath of the attack. Murphy surmised that people in the abortion clinic may have hid the attacker. “The same thing happened to me years ago when I was attacked outside an abortion clinic,” Murphy said. “We went inside the clinic and pointed the guy out.”
Sidewalk counselor Kathy Mieding said of the attacker that “He was saying the most awful things to these poor men as they prayed. When he began spitting on them, I tried to get his attention to get him away from them. It all happened so fast. I was attacked by a pro-abort at a prayer service before myself, and the man escaped in the confusion. But I got a good look at this one.”
Jim Finnegan, pro-life sidewalk counselor and director of Vote Life America, said “Imagine the headlines that would have been generated if it was a pro-abortion protestor that was attacked by someone who was pro-life. It would have been splashed across the front pages of newspapers across the Midwest. But because a pro-lifer got attacked, to our biased and anti-life media it’s a non-event. It’s sickening.”
The Albany Clinic is owned by abortionist Edward Allred, who operates the Family Planning Associates Medical Group.
Murphy noted that “Allred is known for his racist statements against blacks and Hispanics.” In the October 12, 1980 issue of the San Diego Union, Allred is quoted as saying, “Population control is too important to be stopped by some right wing pro-life types. Their lack of respect for Democracy and society is frightening. Take the new influx of Spanish immigrants. Their lack of respect for democracy and social order is frightening. I hope I can do something to stem that tide; I’d set up a clinic in Mexico for free if I could. Maybe one in Calixico would help. … The Aid to Families with Dependent Children program is the worst boondoggle ever created. When a sullen black woman of 17 or 18 can decide to have a baby and get welfare and food stamps and become a burden to all of us, it’s time to stop. In parts of South Los Angeles, having babies for welfare is the only industry the people have.”
Allred’s comments are consistent with the racist views of Planned Parenthood founder Margaret Sanger, who was an early proponent of using abortion as a form of genocide against non-Aryans.
References: “Men Praying the Rosary Attacked by Pro-Aborts With Pepper Spray in Chicago.” Catholic Citizens.org [Catholic Citizens of Illinois], October 28, 2003; Karl Maurer. “Chicago Abortion Protestors Pepper-Sprayed.” The Illinois Leader, October 29, 2003; Karl Maurer. “Outside Chicago Abortion Facility Assailant Pepper-Sprays Men Praying the Rosary.” The Wanderer, November 6, 2003, pages 1 and 7.
Don’t ya just want to give her a big hug!
What a marvelous and brave woman.
Lewd Behavior
Abortionist Michael Gold simulated masturbating in front of a female pro-lifer as she prayed outside the facility. Another protestor recorded Gold screaming at a pro-life woman “You c
Assault (4 incidents)
On Thursday evening, May 14, 1998, at 6:00 p.m., Steven Mears, Debbie Mears, and Kathy Dufton arrived at Barnstormer’s Restaurant, located on the former Pease Air Force Base and current Pease Port Authority, to protest the NARRAL [National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League] “Chocolates for Choice” Fundraiser. After a few minutes, two Portsmouth Police Officers, identified as Officers Todd Horne and Cashman, told the picketers to turn their signs away from the restaurant or cross the street, when a man in a white shirt who identified himself as an owner of Barnstormers Restaurant complained to the officers about the picketers. Horne was later identified as a paid security guard for the former Portsmouth Abortuary. Steven Mears informed the officers that it was a public sidewalk and that they had picketed there previously many times without incident. Officer Horne replied: “I don’t care.” He appeared to get very agitated and threatened Steven and Debbie Mears with arrest if they did not cross the street. Steven Mears asserted the group’s first amendment right to protest the event and claimed such censorship was content driven discrimination. The two officers then immediately started pushing and shoving the protestors off the sidewalk and across the street into the oncoming 5 lanes of 6:00 PM rush hour traffic. As Kathy Dufton and Steven Mears were being pushed over to the other side of the street by Officers Horne and Cashman, Debbie Mears walked away from the restaurant and towards the crosswalk to cross the street when Officer Horne yelled at her that she had 30 seconds to cross the street. Kathy Dufton and Kathy Bean, who did not hear of the original request to face their signs away from the restaurant, faced their signs towards the traffic and the restaurant. The two officers then immediately crossed back over the street and made a grab for the signs. Debbie Mears attempted to use her camera to take a picture of the Officers doing this. Officer Horne then grabbed Debbie Mears by the wrist and twisted it, fracturing her wrist and forcing her to drop her sign. She kneeled down on it, and raised her hands above her head, saying repeatedly “I will not resist you! I am not resisting arrest! I will not resist you!” The officers then grabbed the other signs and returned to Debbie Mears. Officer Horne then took her sunglasses off, and sprayed her in the face with pepper spray. Debbie Mears fell back onto the ground, while Officer Horne cuffed her in the front. After Debbie Mears had been sprayed, Steven Mears was heard to say “Please don’t hurt my wife.” Officer Cashman grabbed Steven Mears from behind as he (Cashman) pulled out his nightstick and made a motion as if he was about to beat Steven Mears. A surprised Steven Mears exclaimed, “Oh, Now you’re going to beat me?” Steven Mears was then pushed face first into the ground and handcuffed from behind. Neither Steven nor Debbie Mears resisted arrest. During all this Kathy Dufton and Kathy Bean were pleading with the police in disbelief: “Why are you doing this?” As Officer Cashman tried to take Kathy Bean’s sign, she said: “You said you just wanted us to stay across the street with the signs. We are where you wanted us.” He kept pulling at the sign so Kathy Bean then tried to put her large sign of Baby Malachi back in her van, but Officer Cashman grabbed the sign, and threatened to arrest her if she did not let go of it. At this time Kathy Bean asked Debbie if she wanted her to take Debbie’s camera. Debbie said yes, but then Officer Horne took the camera off of Debbie Mears’ neck while Officer Cashman went after Kathy Bean yelling at her to “Get out of here!” He then grabbed Kathy Bean when she reached her vehicle, and started to handcuff her when Officer Horne said to let her go, “We have the couple”. Kathy Bean then left the scene. Then the Police proceeded to destroy the four large Baby Malachi signs. On Thursday Night, the WMUR TV 11:00 p.m. news, edited by pro-abortion NARRAL supporter Karen Brown, gleefully reported that abortion protestors Steve and Debbie Mears had been arrested for disorderly conduct and resisting arrest after police asked them to leave, and that pepper spray was used on Debbie Mears, but that the NARRAL fundraiser went on as planned. No comment was made to the facts of the assault by police on the protestors. State Senator Burt Cohen was later quoted as saying something to the effect as the protestors got what they deserved.
Reference: Mike Gagnon, Chairman, New Hampshire Right to Life (courtesy NHRTL News Service).
Find more at abortionviolence.com
What an awesome lady!
And guys, really, who cares if this parallels at ALL to the pro-life movement? This woman deserves to be honored and written about all the time! While you’re getting your panties in a bunch over the last sentence of the post, you’re taking away from the memory of this woman.
How dare you, Jill. How dare you use the death this heroic woman to parallel your political agenda. You should be ashamed of yourself. This is truly a new low for you. I am absolutely disgusted with the depths you have sunk to.
Posted by: Leah at May 13, 2008 8:06 AM
Leah,
I feel the same way about the pro-choice movement and the atrocities you support. Every time I see pictures of aborted babies, read stories of adolecent girls being dragged to a clinic against their will by molesting boyfriends, read about the disgusting filthy dirty clinics that pro-life groups were able to shut down, read about deaths by legal abortion, read about abortion mills accepting money to abort black babies, read stories of babies born alive and left to die, drown or their necks broken for organ studies and discected while hearts still beating.
In your own words:
“You should be ashamed of yourself. This is truly a new low for you. I am absolutely disgusted with the depths you have sunk to.”
Irena Sendler — What an amazing, precious woman (and what a great smile, too!).
Lesforlife 8:55
Don’t forget Jo Scott’s husband Ken. He went to jail for years rather than support his own 4 children, and then sued the judges who ordered him to pay child support. His first two wives fled for their lives from his abuse.
He has been involuntarily placed in mental institutions 4 times. He has at least four permanent restraining orders against him for threats.
Ken and Jo climb ladders at PP to scream at and photograph women, so their pictures can be placed on the internet.
Ken has been used for many years as an “attack dog” by anti-choice terrorists to threaten and intimidate their targets.
Your comparison of the Scotts to Irena Sendler shows the absolute disrespect for the truth that characterizes anti-choice extremists.
Wow – thanks for pointing that out, Bystander. I had no idea thats who Les was referring to as his “friend”…
Here’s a few choice bits on this class act.
*****************
(CBS) Outside Denver’s Planned Parenthood clinic, Ken Scott means to be intimidating by warning patients, “You will regret this for the rest of your life, don’t do it.”
But to women arriving here to have an abortion, as CBS News Correspondent Mark Strassmann reports, nothing Scott yells is as unnerving as his camera.
Ken Scott, an anti-abortion protestor, explains, “We’re trying to expose the sin, and shame the people.”
He takes their pictures for the most public photo album of all: the Internet.
“A federal appeals court recently ruled this Web site — called the “Nuremburg Files” — was an illegal threat. The site compares abortion doctors to Nazi war criminals.
In 1998, when Dr. Barnett Slepian, an abortion provider, was murdered in his kitchen, the “Nuremburg Files” simply crossed through his name, like an updated hit list.
But camera-shy patients may have a tougher time getting help from the courts.
Jonathan Zittrain of Harvard Law School explains, “It may well be difficult to show that a Web site with text, even if it has animated dripping blood icons, is an imminent clear and present danger call to violence.”
So for now — in the click of a camera — a private medical moment can become a cyberspace spectacle.
(CBS news)
**************************
Scott can usually be found Tuesday through Saturday mornings (the time when the clinic performs abortions) on the Vine Street corner. He also protests outside the Boulder abortion clinic of Dr. Warren Hern, who he told Westword in October “has less than a year to live.” (At last report, authorities had placed Scott in a mental hospital over Christmas because he allegedly was stalking Hern.)
Asked how he makes a living while spending so much time picketing, Scott has said, “The Lord provides.” His second former wife, Diana L. Scott, probably would like the Lord to provide a little more so that her ex can make his child-support payments.
According to Arapahoe County documents related to their 1990 divorce and subsequent actions, Scott stopped working about the same time the settlement was finalized. He had been ordered to pay $650 a month in child support for his three young daughters. But in early 1993 his ex-wife had him hauled before a judge to face a contempt-of-court charge for being $9,750 in arrears (fifteen months’ worth of payments).
The 43-year-old Scott argued that he couldn’t work “after 22 years of hard labor” on loading docks because of an injured shoulder. He reinjured it shortly after the divorce, he said, when he returned to work too soon because he was depressed about the divorce and wanted “to keep my mind from committing suicide.”
Noting that Scott has a college degree, a real estate license and talent as a home remodeler–not to mention enough stamina to enthusiastically picket–Judge Michael Bieda didn’t buy the excuse. He sentenced Scott, who has spent some time in the pokey due to his anti-abortion activities, to six months in the county jail.
Scott had already angered the court when another judge, Jack L. Smith, told him he couldn’t take his children to anti-abortion protests. One of his daughters, then age nine, didn’t want to attend the rallies (the others were apparently ambivalent). On the recommendation of a social worker, Judge Smith determined that taking the children to rallies, where Scott was “in danger of arrest,” would be detrimental to their physical and emotional health.
Scott responded by saying, “I’m going to defy the court. I’m going to take them with me everywhere I go…I’m going to do with my children as I see fit.”
The social worker asked that Scott’s visitation privileges be revoked, saying, “I don’t think Mr. Scott is capable of placing the children’s needs above his own in this issue.”
Ralph Rhodes, the attorney for Scott’s ex-wife, tried to play peacemaker: “I, for one…feel that Mr. Scott should be given a chance to weigh his love for his children with his love for his belief.”
But Scott said he wouldn’t negotiate. “You’re not going to plea bargain with me here,” he said at the time. “I’m going to win, or, unfortunately, the children are going to lose.”
Judge Smith asked, “Are you telling me you would prefer your child lose?”
To which Scott responded, “I put the Lord above everything–my mother, my family, my children. There are 30 million babies killed in this country…and the Lord wants me out there as a witness…”
Denver News
***************************
And your’re grouping people like this and comparing them to a woman who saved thousands of children in the Holocaust….
I didn’t know that was the Jo being referred to. I do not condone Kenneth Scott in the way that he treats people. I have seen a few interviews of him on TV and I think that he is certainly mentally unstable, and many of his methods and actions in approaching abortion minded women are absolutely wrong. Two wrongs do not make a right.
Amanda, people like Kenneth Scott are the exception and not the rule. Most pro-life protestors are very kind and caring people who truly want to see babies saved, and also care about the mothers.
Ken Scott is a marvelous human being who has repented for
any and all errors of his youth and asked Jesus to be his
Lord and savior more than 20 years ago.
Which of us has nothing in our past for which we are
ashamed?
As for his efforts on behalf of the babies, he is a saint.
I challenge any of you to be as faithful in trying to save innocent
life.
Bethany, you don’t need to apologize for Ken.
He loves the Lord and serves him with gladness each
and every day, seeking to save innocent life. He works
full time so Jo can be on the front lines trying to spare
babies from the abortionists knives.
He is a true man of God and nothing the lying media
or Planned Parenthood flacks on this blog say about him takes that away.
Warren Hern, Boulder’s evil late term abortionist had
Ken put in a mental institution years back, with the
cooperation of an evil Colorado judge, for using scripture
to confront Hern about his eternal destiny.
“And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
Bethany,
Great comments. Pro-lifers have never stood behind the action of violence of any pro-life advocate and speak out against individuals that give the pro-life movement a negative impression. Unlike the abortion quacks that the pro-choice movement stands behind and idolizes
ie..Hodari, key note speaker, Tiller the Killer, key note speaker just to name a few.
Laura acutally stood behind the Florida clinic for throwing away a live born baby in a bag of bleach on a roof. I believe she stated that the girl paid for that privilege and had no right to sue for the incident.
Oh how sick, Sandy! I must have missed that comment by Laura.
Bethany 10:18
Yes, in the last six months these “kind and caring people” have written three separate anonymous threatening letters to 150 homes in my neighborhood, threatening to commit crimes and decrease property values. They trespassed in 150 yards to place bloody fetus dolls for kids to find.
They have threatened and intimidated over 500 people in their homes, including over 200 children. They stalk the neighborhood with mutilated fetus posters and trucks, and engage in video surveillance, hoping to provoke a confrontation so they can sue neighbors or the police.
All of this is because one person in the neighborhood is an employee of a contractor working on a PP project.
This could be any of several neighborhoods in the Denver area, as the “kind and caring” people have used the same methods in several areas.
These “kind and caring” people ALWAYS include Ken Scott in their activities to threaten and intimidate their victims, as anyone who knows anything about Ken is afraid of him.
Thanks, Amanda for posting the articles. “Westword” has had several articles about Ken Scott and other anti-choice terrorists.
None of these “kind and caring’ people has ever dissociated themselves from Ken Scott, so obviously he is the “rule”, not the “exception”.
Lesforlife, please do not take offense to me saying this (I love you as a sister in Christ) but I think that Ken Scott is unwittingly hurting the pro-life cause rather than helping it.
Imagine that a woman is holding a gun to a child’s head…How would you talk to the woman holding the gun? How would you advise someone to speak to this woman?
Would one loudly insult her, demean her, and tell her that she’s making a stupid choice if she pulls the trigger, in a threatening tone? Of course not. They would know this might intensify the situation and cause the woman to react in haste.
The only person who would do that in this situation is someone who doesn’t truly care about the child’s welfare, or has no idea how to understand the ramifications of his actions.
A sane person would recognize that getting such a person angry at this critical time, and threatening them, might actually cause the person to decide to pull the trigger, causing the child’s death. (Most people would understand that threatening them would NOT help coax the woman from pulling the trigger.)
If Kenneth Scott has saved 100 children a year with his methods, how many children has he participated in killing, indirectly through his hostile and aggressive behavior towards women? Aren’t there better ways that a person could approach an abortive minded woman, with understanding, love, and compassion? I think that women are more likely to choose to give life to their children if they know that they have the love and support of another individual- not if they fear the judgement of an angry person.
Please understand I don’t say this to attack you, but to ask you to please reconsider.
I’ve got to run to the CPC but will be back soon.
Amanada,
Juxtapose Irena Sendler’s solution for children in crisis with Margaret Sanger’s solution. Risk your own life to save them vs. just kill ’em all.
If children in the womb are human, what would you term their wholesale slaughter? What do you call the murder and dismemberment of 50,000,000 children over a period of 35 years. A beach party? A non-event? Of no social consequence?
The effects of just a single abortion, extrapolated out over time, actually results in the destruction of that victims posterity and its devastating effects unknowable and incalculable. Yes, this is a Holocuast that makes the WWII holocaust appear trivial. Why, because the actions of US Supreme Court back in 1973 actually resulted in the murder of over a billion babies worldwide. Are we not the so-called leaders of the world?
If it is not a Holocuast what is it? And if it is a Holocuast what would you call it’s protesters, those that are willing to be ostracized, ridiculed, and intimidated by pro-death propagandists and not be self-decieved by political correctness? At least Nazis had enough courage to wear a uniform.
For a pro-lifer to term this heinous period of history anything other than a Holocaust would be truly hypocritical.
No this is much, much worse than the Holocaust because the face of evil is camoflaged in semantic deception, political correctness, and state collaboration. The devil does appear as an angel of light and legalized abortion it the proof.
Yes, Jill is right, there will someday be a memorial to this tragedy as truth will win out as it always does. And a chill should run down your spine that someday, perhaps your children’s children, will read at the Abortion Holocaust Memorial display, “And it is hard to understand, how blogges could post for the wholesale murder of children in the name of women’s rights, evidence of the grand deception of the times – here’s a sample…..”.
Make no mistake, babies in the womb are the least of these and whatever we do to them we do to the Savior. When the right to Life is denied, the Savior is denied and He has a clear answer for all you deny Him:
“If you deny me before men, I will deny you before my Father in Heaven”.
Amanda:
Sorry I misspelled your name at the top of the last post, it was not intentional.
Ms. Sendler has the eyes of an intellligent, courageous woman. Such bravery.
“Bethany,
Great comments. Pro-lifers have never stood behind the action of violence of any pro-life advocate and speak out against individuals that give the pro-life movement a negative impression.”
Sandy…and Bethany…how sad that right as you both posted that Ken does NOT represent the pro life movement, Les called him a hero and a saint. So you can’t tell me that no one in the movement supports people like this. I’d like to believe that, I really would – but its simply not true. Websites like the one Scott created recieve support from THOUSANDS of like-minded people.
I’d challenge you to find someone who did something like what Ms. Sendler did who was also a violent criminal and a deadbeat dad.
As long as people like Scott and Les and Zeke are part of your movement, comparing it as a whole to Holocaust heroes is just plain dishonest.
“Yes, this is a Holocuast that makes the WWII holocaust appear trivial.”
“At least Nazis had enough courage to wear a uniform.”
“No this is much, much worse than the Holocaust”
– HisMan
The fact that the only way you can make your point is to trivialize the extermination of Jews is ….and you used the word “courage” in the same sentence as “Nazi”….
I am honestly speechless. That doesn’t happen very often. I am so horrified by those statements that I have absolutely NOTHING more to say.
I’m done here for the day folks. That was a bit much for me. Good day y’all.
Amanda,
I’m not going to let you get away with you twisting my words. The Holocaust was terrible beyond imagination.
And when the world finally recognized what Hitler was doing, many gave their lives to stop him. Had I been alive at the time I would have gladly fought against Hitler’s satanic army in a heartbeat.
The same satan that attempted to destroy God’s chosen people via the Holocaust is the same satan who deceives people into thinking that abortion is good and right. Satan’s goal is blasphemy against God. He attempts to make God evil, so good becomes evil and evil good.
In that sense, good people who would otherwise see abortion as the evil that it is and fight against it, are deceived by the abortion murder machine and do nothing.
Had Hitler’s success at deceiving his own people using twisted semantics and propaganda spread througout the world, who would have fought to end the Holocaust?
This is the sense in which this present day Holocaust is worse than the WWII Holocaust. It’s a Holocaust unrecognized by the world save for pro-lifers. However, the world is awakening to this evil and it will be stopped.
I love you guys.
But sometimes you really, really make me question your priorities.
I don’t see where any words were twisted HisMan. They look like direct quotes to me.
Very sad to see those statements under the story of this woman, no matter what you say to backpeddle now.
As long as people like xxxx and xxxx and xxxx are part of your movement, comparing it as a whole to Holocaust heroes is just plain dishonest.
I want to focus on the use of the word “honest” in the above statement and not the individuals named above (hence, the x’s). I think to accuse a person of being dishonest for expressing their personal views is wrong. “Dishonest” implies there is an intent to deceive, which may not be the case at all. Accusatory words do nothing to further a discussion.
Good grief!
Jill has attempted to imply that this woman was funded by Catholics to save Jewish children willing to become Catholic rather than die. Instead of honoring this woman, Jill has twisted yet another news bit to suit her agenda and some folks just lap it up.
If indeed this woman only facilitated the rescue of children willing to become Catholic, there is obviously nothing heroic about her actions.
By implying that ‘living as Catholics’ made children exempt from extermination by Nazis implies a Catholic nod of approval to the Nazi regime.
I can’t imagine any rational Catholic or Jew not being offended by Jill’s latest exploitation.
Pretending to know what a dead woman’s views on terminating pregnancies might have been is disrespectful of her life and memory. Pretending that talking woman into continuing pregnancies somehow equates to smuggling people out of death camps is trivializing what this woman actually did.
Disgusting Jill. But hardly a new low for you.
Go ahead Bethany. Censor me. Heaven forbid we live in a country where people object to self serving, exploitative people such as Jill.
As long as people like Scott and Les and Zeke are part of your movement, comparing it as a whole to Holocaust heroes is just plain dishonest.
*****
A bad joke, at best, to compare such bad people as those three with Irena Sendler.
I agree with Sally.
You’d do your side a huge favor, Jill, if you injected some sensibility and modernism into your views, instead of the raging hysteria you’ve been prone to lately. You’re a great lady just trying to follow her heart, but maybe you should step back a bit and see how many people you end up chasing AWAY from your cause.
Don’t forget Jo Scott’s husband Ken. He went to jail for years rather than support his own 4 children, and then sued the judges who ordered him to pay child support. His first two wives fled for their lives from his abuse.
He has been involuntarily placed in mental institutions 4 times. He has at least four permanent restraining orders against him for threats.
*****
Cor blimey…..
Wow, this thread has brought out the ugly in people hasn’t it?
I’m kind of at a loss for words over this one.
Except I can say what an a-mazing woman Irena Sendler is.
Maybe we should just all focus on that, and try more to be like she was.
Oh and Erin, 1:58 p.m.
I would have to agree with you there. Especially lately. Sometimes it gets a little extreme for me and I’m pro-life.
Elizabeth,
I popped back here just to see… and was very relieved by two things:
1. that no one, absolutely NO ONE jumped to defend Les or HisMan for what they said in this thread.
and
2. your post just now.
Makes me feel better than I was after reading those earlier posts. =)
No problem, Amanda…I don’t think there is any defense for it honestly.
They’re all atrocities to me…to compare them is to trivialize one and make one seem “less” than what it actually was.
It’s really disappointing how this thread about a wonderful woman deteriorated into what it did.
“You’d do your side a huge favor…if you injected some sensibility and modernism into your views”
——————————-
HMMM…I think those two terms contradict each other. Modernism sounds a lot like ‘moral relativism’.
“Jill has attempted to imply that this woman was funded by Catholics to save Jewish children willing to become Catholic rather than die…
If indeed this woman only facilitated the rescue of children willing to become Catholic, there is obviously nothing heroic about her actions.”
-Sally
Umm. I didn’t see any implication that she was funded by Catholics, or any indication that the children were converted – only that they “lived as Catholics” – meaning they had to hide their true religion for a while in order to survive… and hell, I’d have been happy to live as a Catholic, or pretty much ANYTHING for that matter, if it meant my survival.
I resent the comparison to side walk protesters, but come on now…I think you’re reading things in to this that simply aren’t there.
I’ve posted my thoughts on this topic on my blog at http://www.thrufire.org/
I’d appreciate any specific responses to my post be left there. Thanks.
(Still trying to get the trackback to work….)
Sandy…and Bethany…how sad that right as you both posted that Ken does NOT represent the pro life movement, Les called him a hero and a saint. So you can’t tell me that no one in the movement supports people like this. I’d like to believe that, I really would – but its simply not true. Websites like the one Scott created recieve support from THOUSANDS of like-minded people.
I understand where you’re coming from, Amanda, but I think that what we were trying to express is that pro-lifers as a collective whole do not condone the actions of someone like Ken Scott. Can I send you an email sometime and clarify some things privately? Or you can send me an email and I’ll reply to it (my emails in the sidebar).
Also, about the comparison to this woman, I can understand where you’re coming from and why you are so angry about the comparison of Irena to pro-life protestors, since you have voiced your opinion so well and helped me to see your viewpoint.
When it comes to what Irena went through, I agree, there is really no comparison to what she must have struggled with (in regards to threat to her life, etc), and what pro-lifers today struggle with.
I agree with you, I am definitely thankful to live in America, where we can protest and express our feelings openly and make our opinions known, and I never want to make it appear otherwise. Please forgive me if I misrepresented my feelings on that issue this morning…I was in a bit of an argumentative mood, and I did not express myself well enough. I think I made it sound like I was comparing what the pro-lifers go through is exactly the same as what that woman went through…the comparison that I personally see in this situation is the comparison of the unborn children to the children that the woman saved. Those unborn children (and their mothers), are in imminent danger every time their mother goes to have an abortion. And they are indeed rescued from that danger of death whenever a pro-life sidewalk counselor offers help to a woman who is entering the clinic, when the woman changes her mind and accepts the help…and whenever a woman goes to a Crisis Pregnancy Center with an abortion mindset, believing that there is no alternative for her, and then she learns of her resources and chooses life for her baby. I hope this helps you see more clearly from my viewpoint and how I see things on this topic.
(hugs!)
Sally, 1:39:
Not one word of your comment made any sense whatsoever. Please try reading Jill’s story again, with an open mind this time.
“Such a beautiful woman and story. Someday many in the pro-life movement, like sidewalk counselors outside abortion mills, will be similarly honored.”
Great post Jill, as usual.
Bethany, thanks for an awesome post.
Of course you can email me. Through facebook is the easiest so I don’t post my email here.
Thanks
=)
Chris:
I noticed you said your computer was down on your site so I posted my comment here as well:
From a simply earthly and fleshly perspective, I may agree with you.
However, as a Bible believing Christian you know the battle we fight is not against flesh and blood.
While the whys, whats, whens, wheres and hows of the Jewish Holocaust differ, the source of this destruction is the same, the goal is the same, the feelings in God’s heart, I would imagine, are just as anguished.
Let me ask you this though. What do you call the murder of 1 billion children worldwide over a period of 35 years? If these were born children what would you call this? A pandemic, a catastrophe, a plague, what? What am I missing here?
There’s no other word availble to describe the horor other than a “Holocaust”.
No, it’s not the “Jewish Holocaust” but it is a “Holocaust”, different day, same devil.
By the way…..excellent site.
Hey Chris!
Cheers to you my friend – we agree on something!
Its a start, no?
=)
“Its ‘great’ to be deranged and delusional? Because trying to draw parallells between abortion and the holocause is deranged and delusional.”
No Texas Red, you’re the one who is deranged and delusional for supporting the shedding of innocent blood. Don’t you see what you are supporting. Take a look: watch the video
http://www.abortionno.org/
Chris A,
I read the post of your webpage. What you fail to mention is the view of the victims. To them, it is a holocaust. Both Irena Sendler and pro-life advocates are working to save people from death. The comparison is valid.
Operation rescue Boston saved 90 babies last year and 30 so far this year. They gave them a chance to live, like Irena Sendler did for the jews.
Jasper,
do you condone/support the actions of Ken Scott?
TR,
what did I lie about? Does the truth hurt?
did you watch the video? do you have the guts to view what you support? the killing, the destruction, the blood, the death. Can you face the truth TR?
Amanda,
I don’t know who Ken Scott is, let me look him up and I’ll post in a few minutes….
TR,
when you were pregnant, did you refer to your baby as “baby” or “fetus”?
Jasper –
Check out the comments from earlier today re: Ken Scott.
And the anti-Catholic bigot Sad Eyed Sally makes her bigoted words known. When will this bigot forget her mother, grandmother and great grandmother’s hatred towards Catholics is not natural, and only comes from being a Know Nothing klan member?
Then again, Texasredneck remains a anti-Catholic bigot and thinks being a anti Catholic bigot will buy her some free Chimay beer on a Saturday night. And it does amongst those demi-Texans that are found wearing those silly Texas star bandanas, sagging bluebonnet tattoos, and trying to get that june bug washed down their throat, from always opening their big fat mouth about a Catholic while going down a hill country road on that heavy leather Sportster.
Eventually those Texasrednecks stop,get off their shiny leather ladened bike, and vomit as that june bug walks up and down their throat, never making up its mind to leave or stay.
Hey, Texasredneck, that trappist made, imported beer taste as good coming up as it was going down? Silly bigots.
Amanda,
Ken Scott seems like a passionate pro-lifer. He should pay his child support though. I didn’t see where he harassed women going into the death mill, it sounds like he was trying to warn them.
@Jasper: Then you’re pretty much “out to lunch” so to speak that you don’t get that Ken Scott is a friggin’ loony toon.
Jasper… its disappointing you see death threats, intentional humiliation, and mistreating of one’s own children at the expense of a cause as “passion”.
Bethany – do you see now why I feel this way? So far you and Elizabeth are in the minority (just on this board I mean) when it comes to being against people who fight for the pro life cause angrily and violently.
and who is this thinking they’re super clever and trying to get TR in trouble? Its clearly not her…
Why looky here bubba,
We got us a real blazin saddle Texasredneck, who even can us those cuss words. Why I reckon you best make the best of it Texasredneck and have another swig of that trappist imported beer before you vomit on yourself once again.
well, I missed were he (Ken Scott) made the death threaths and all that Amanda. I disagree with him if he actually did this…
I don’t support violence.
Amanda,
I do not condone violence from any prolifer. I don’t like being lumped in with the fringe.
TR,
do you see why I keep on bringing up the “baby” “fetus” question? because you can’t answer it. You loved your baby when he was inside you, he was your baby, a person, a human. Not your fetus.
TR…is that really you? Because frankly, it sounds like something a PL person would do to make PCers look bad. If it is you…oh dear.
Moderator: Clean-up in aisle seven please.
Janet, click refresh… :)
I know. They agree with lots of things that I think are pretty appalling. But cursing and stuff at them just fuels their sense of moral superiority.
One of the primary principles of war is not to give your enemy ammo, TR.
Wow… ok, I was wrong.
TR, I love your spunk in general, but yikes – I don’t think that will help any.
Can I ask you guys something? All the posts I just read aside, what did TR do to warrant being banned and censored? Would you have banned John L for all of the awful things he said if he hadn’t left on his own? And if its just pro choicers that can be banned, why them and not me – I know I can be pretty damn sarcastic at times? Just the actual language, or what? I’d just like this to be clearer… thanks.
Amanda,
You must have missed what TR said.
Well based on the posts tonight, I’m confused now and I’m assuming I missed something…
and TR, I have not found what you said to be true of Bethany and MK at all. HisMan has said some absolutely horrid things, and today was no exception, but usually a few days later when he calms down or whatnot, he admits he was out of line, or he just backpeddles ferociously like he did today (which I interpret as him admitting he was wrong pretty much). Yllas is just a joke – its not even worth reading his comments,let alone reacting to them. And Jill will never admit she’s wrong about anything, and has said some bigoted things (though I believe they are rooted in lack of understanding rather than hatred)… but it IS her blog, so I’m not sure what else you’d expect.
Its a cast of characters – and its worth sticking around. Maybe if you and MK talked privately via email you could work this out?
TR & a few others,
there’s a lot of truth claimed on both sides. When WWII ended you could say there were two things evident in Germany at the time … massive confusion soon to turn into starvation and decided anger towards the allies. The Nuremberg trials hadn’t even been thought of …. the saving of a few notable high-ranking Nazi’s may have been necessary to save their lives (what happened to Muscellini was likely a good indicator) … these men were not war-criminals … this notion had not been invented in these early (after the war) days. Most people did not even know about the series of extermination camps…. and NOT knowing likely saved many lives.
The anger was over the ‘blitzkreig’. The allies bombed and bombed and bombed Germany’s cities. Often the bombing was so intense with incindiary bombs that many civilians perished because there was no oxygen left to breath. In 1981 (36 years since then) I was asked by a still-bitter German man: “why? knowing that the war was over!”
TR,
do you feel better now?
well this is just silly.
=(
I don’t know whether to laugh at TR or feel bad for her that she feels it necessary to act like that. Hm.
Awww man…the internet fights I miss while being at biology class. :(((
For those doubting a similarity of Sendler’s objectives to the pro-life movement:
Last year Ms. Sendler was honored by the Polish Senate and nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, bringing dozens of reporters to her door. She told one of them she was wearying of the attention.
“Every child saved with my help is the justification of my existence on this Earth,” she said, “and not a title to glory.”
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-obit_sendlermay13,0,210624.story
TR…
I feel like I should tell you, for whatever difference it may or probably won’t make…
that when I first came across this board, it was with a whole group of pro choicers who came across a particularly divisive column Jill wrote. The discussions were pretty much nothing but insults, shouting, accusations, etc. Jill was deleting pretty much every dissenting comment, including many of mine.
It was MK who got everyone to think twice about what they were saying and what it was doing. It was MK who got a lot of people, including Jill, to participate in more honest dialouge.
When HisMan first popped in here, full of venom, and made a nasty comment to me about my family, it was MK who talked sense in to him and he even apologized.
When I first came back here a few months ago and Heather and Hooves jumped all over me with insults and names, it was MK again who stepped in and helped cooler heads prevail.
MK, Elizabeth, Mary, Bethany, and a few others have regularly spoken up AGAINST people being judgemental and nasty, even to Jill sometimes.
I think with only a *few* exceptions, the regulars here deserve a bit more credit than you’re giving them.
I hope you and MK have a talk and this sillyness gets worked out. If not, best wishes to you.
Goodnight everyone.
HisMan said,
“Had I been alive at the time I would have gladly fought against Hitler’s satanic army in a heartbeat.”
Your Pope was part of that satanic army. Do you see now why I don’t want to take his words for the words of God?
Umm. I didn’t see any implication that she was funded by Catholics, or any indication that the children were converted – only that they “lived as Catholics” – meaning they had to hide their true religion for a while in order to survive… and hell, I’d have been happy to live as a Catholic, or pretty much ANYTHING for that matter, if it meant my survival.
I resent the comparison to side walk protesters, but come on now…I think you’re reading things in to this that simply aren’t there.
I don’t want to speak for all religions or all religious people, but I know I was raised to believe that even pretending to be of a different faith was an affront to God. Those who would be martyrs are those who would not deny their faith, even if it meant humiliation, torture or death.
So for this woman to ask children to do that could be horribly offensive to Jews, especially their parents. I’m sure she meant well by what she was doing, but at the same time she could be seen as destroying those children’s relationships with God and opportunity to go to heaven.
Amanda:
Yes, MK is a peacemaker and I carry the sword of the spirit demolishing every pretense that sets itself up against the knowledge of God. Both have their place in the Kingdom.
And yes, sometimes I say things that I then apologize for. Guess you never have had to do that? Well, this is NOT one of those times for me.
Don’t think that you got me. Sorry no award for you today, however, as an innocent person accused of a crime, you force me to defend myself, otherwise the jury might say, “Why didn’t he defend himself, he must be guilty”.
No, Amanda, I will not let you slander my character by inferring something I am not and am in no way apologizing or backpeddling as you have claimed.
I have always been a 100% supporter of the Jews and of Israel.
I am not a replacement theologist. I belong to numerous Christian organizations that support Israel actually in contrast to many mainline denominations that do not. I find your comments about me abhorrent and they make me wretch.
I have consistently stated that the Jews were and are still God’s chosen people, the apple of His eye. This in fact is why satan has attacked these people mercilessly over the millenia. Satan hates God and he hates what God favors and he is constantly trying to hurt God by hurting His children. In fact. God’s heart is broken at your self-deception and where it is leading you.
If you keep pushing your lies, however,I’ll just go back and find my posts and publish them again.
I have made comparison of the Abortion Holocaust to the Jewish Holocaust as to their spiritual origins, and goals. The Holocaust was obviously a brutal display of satan’s hated for mankind, paticularly the Jews.
Perhaps you cannot understand the connection. I do. Why, because I know the Bible, inside and out and am completely aware of satan and his schemes. He is a liar, a thief and a murderer.
So don’t attempt to make this out as something that it isn’t.
I have never trivialized the Jewish Holocaust, however, I did say that the Abortion Holocaust makes the Jewish Holocaust look trivial. I can understand how you have a hard time understanding that being a pro-abort, believing that a baby in the womb is just “non-sentient glob of cells and tissue”. It’s called a comparitive and not an imperative or a derogative argument. And if you need to hear it again imperatively, “THE JEWISH HOLOCAUST WAS AN ABOMINATION”. You want me to say it again? “THE JEWISH HOLOCAUST WAS AN ABOMINATION”.
Comparitively, one billion innocent babies in the womb have been dismembered, poisoned, decapitated, mutilated, and pretty much with the sanction of the state and the silence of the the church majora. The Catholic Church, to their credit has taken the brunt of this assault and I salute them in their courageous stand in probably one of the most heinous periods of our history. This is a truth that cannot be denied.
Do you think God sees a dismembered baby in a trash can or the suffering mother who made the “choice” any different than a victimized and brutally murdered Jew in Auschwitz? Do you think this statement trivializes the Holocaust or does it explicitly make the real and obvious comparison to that which you cannot or choose to grasp? You see Amanda, if you weren’t in denial about the horror of abortion, you would make the connection and make the switch to pro-life instantaneously. I think God is absolutely heartbroken that men can treat men the way they do no matter what the atrocity. And the murdered babies in the womb are not the only victims of choice. I guess you just can’t see abortion as an atrocity. That’s where we differ.
However, God will have the last say and will restore everything that satan has stolen from mankind and particularly the Jew, a people who have blessed this world beyond understanding but have been so demonized for so long, by so many and to mothers, even those that rejected their children but sought forgiveness from the Lord.
Now call me what you will Amanda.
But don’t you see Edyt? They believe life on this earth no matter what it means. It doesn’t matter what you do as long as you live on this earth as long as humanly possible.
Personally I look forward to the afterlife with great curiosity and hope.
Edyt: …..but I know I was raised to believe that even pretending to be of a different faith was an affront to God. Those who would be martyrs are those who would not deny their faith, even if it meant humiliation, torture or death.
The children Sendler saved lived as Catholics, they weren’t forced to convert to Catholicism, or renounce their Jewish faith. They were under the care of loving adults looking out for their welfare. The reason Sendler saved their names on paper in a jar was so they could be reunited with their Jewish families after the war. Why would God blame anyone for that?
Edyt: So for this woman to ask children to do that could be horribly offensive to Jews, especially their parents. I’m sure she meant well by what she was doing, but at the same time she could be seen as destroying those children’s relationships with God and opportunity to go to heaven.
This is not fiction. Have you read of this being the case? I haven’t.
Your Pope was part of that satanic army. Do you see now why I don’t want to take his words for the words of God?
Posted by: Jess at May 14, 2008 12:41 AM
Uh Jess, that would be more my Pope than HisMan’s since I am Catholic and he is not. Anyway, why do you talk about the Pope like that when it is obvious you know so little about him. I know it has been a while since you posted here and it is good to see you back but take a deep breath and think about wetehr or not what your posting is really being truthful. The Pope was the part of the army that defected. Can you find me any reference that the Pope ever exterminated/killed anyone while part of Hitler’s army? Or where he killed anybody at all?
But don’t you see Edyt? They believe life on this earth no matter what it means. It doesn’t matter what you do as long as you live on this earth as long as humanly possible.
Personally I look forward to the afterlife with great curiosity and hope.
Posted by: Jess at May 14, 2008 1:35 AM
Jess, we agree on this one. I look forward to the afterlife also. But do you feel as I do that time here on earth is also precious?
TR…is that really you? Because frankly, it sounds like something a PL person would do to make PCers look bad. If it is you…oh dear.
Posted by: Erin at May 13, 2008 9:06 PM
Erin, TR is headed towards a new low even for her. Now she is just angry and abusive like a crack addict whose supply ran out.
Amanda, I disagree with you on many things but I wanted to compliment you on your honesty in debate. I commend you for your openness and for being a good listener.
I know. They agree with lots of things that I think are pretty appalling. But cursing and stuff at them just fuels their sense of moral superiority.
One of the primary principles of war is not to give your enemy ammo, TR.
Posted by: Erin at May 13, 2008 9:12 PM
Erin, don’t worry so much about giving us ammo, the truth is all the ammo the pro-life side needs.
I have consistently stated that the Jews were and are still God’s chosen people, the apple of His eye.
Posted by: HisMan at May 14, 2008 1:33 AM
HisMan, great post and I am not trying to pick a fight but I do not have the same conviction that God has any favoritism to anybody simply ased upon their race. Yes the Old Testament speaks of the Jews as being God’s chosen people. But doesn’t the New Testament teach that we are are now all eqully adopted children through Jesus Christ. And the virgin birth of Jesus symbolizes just this. The geneology of God’s children is no longer through ethnicity but rather it is now through the Holy Spirit.
Now looky here Amanda.
Texasredneck can dish it out, but can’t take it without using curse words. Texasredneck’s curse word post has been deleted in case you missed her discription of Bethany. And as for me being not worth reading, your reading this right now from your precious self image wondering what I am going to say about you.
And the wind up, and the pitch. Your a typical poster Amanda, with nothing new and original on most issues discussed here. Teach me something new Amanda, and my opinion of you might change someday. You stimulate no original thinking and offer that typical post always accusing Jill of some meaning/connection/analogy only a person who is simply trying to insult the writer would offer. And of course as all agitational propagandist do, put the writer on the defensive and control the new subect matter you invented from thin air.
Take your first post here, Amadna, typical propaganda of a person trying to degrade Jill Stanek and change the subject into that typical negative post about Jill’s writing.
What a reach.
yllas,
I also notice that a few of the pro-abort poster’s here like to degrade not only the merit of Jills skills and efforts, but the efforts of all pro-lifer people. They resent that the truth of Jill’s stories shows pro-aborts in a bad light so they resort to personal attacks and slander.
yllas,
Also, you should try and keep from insulting them in your posts. The truth is more then enough for our side.
Jess,
Here is the Popes military record. Drafted into military at age 16. Expected to join battle at age 17 when he was trained as an infantry man but was mostly exempt from “duty” because of illness. Deserted army and re-entered seminary at age 18. Not a very commendable military record by Nazi standards. btw – the popes father was also an outspoken critic of the Nazi’s which caused him to have to move his entire family in order to avoid persecution.
Red,
We already know your opinion and it speaks volumes of you as a person.
“I still wouldnt have any obligation to give them blood or an organ even if it was my fault they needed it.”
Posted by: TexasRed at May 13, 2008 1:42 AM
Red,
insults again. Your statements show how selfish a person you are and lacking in compassion. And not just for the unborn but for everyone.
In case anybody is wondering why I posted about Red at 6:51, she was back with the insults again this morning but her posts were removed. Next time I’ll just ignore her posts so they can be cleaned out without ruining the flow of the thread.
HI JESS!! *waves* :)
Since Jill posts publicly, and runs a comment thread, criticism about it, here or on other blogs is to be expected.
Most bloggers are cut and pasters, not writers. It’s the nature of many bloggers when they get a following to be parasitic on other media. Some, especially those who get in over their heads and pander to their following to keep up the hits take this to an abysmal extreme, like tacking a sentence or two on to other’s writing or a summary of it. In general, they’re also parasitic on those same followers who provide the bulk of the content.
Picture the blogger, off at a nice streetside cafe, on a suny day, after toiled to cut, paste, and tack rthose two sentences, she’s enjoying lunch, chuckling over the mental picture of faithful followers hunkering in dark rooms toiling over their computers.
Granted, some bloggers are a bit more artistic, careful and conscientious than others. Having read a broad selection of the blogs out there, (part of my job) Jill ranks in the bottom 10% or so, as far as writing and creative talent go.
Amanda, Erin, Doug, Heiro, Hal, the dearly departed TR, SoMG, Enigma, Bystander, Elizabeth, Sally, Jess and Carder, Rae, there’s a beautiful world out there, let’s go enjoy it.
Hi Truthseeker:
Perhaps favoritsm is not the correct word.
Think about this though, the Bible says that he is no respecter of persons. I think that means that in regards to people and their differences, God does not see those differences….there is no difference between men, women, black, white, etc. All have to meet the same standards of righteousness, i.e., His Perfection (through Christ of course).
Being favored ans selected of God are different concepts though. Please read Paul’s discussion in Romans 11. I have reproduced it here for your convenience: Make specific note of verse 28.
Romans 11
The Remnant of Israel
1I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah
Phylo:
Yes you are right about one thing, there is a beautiful world out there.
That’s proabably one of the most salient points you have ever made.
Only, please stop trying to kill it.
HisMan –
You can talk all you want now. You can keep accusing me of twisting your words. Thats all well and good. The fact remains, and is here for all of us to see, that you said the following things:
***********************
“Yes, this is a Holocuast that makes the WWII holocaust appear trivial.”
“At least Nazis had enough courage to wear a uniform.”
“No this is much, much worse than the Holocaust”
**********************
I’m not sure how you can accuse me of twisting your words to say that you trivialized an event, when you said, plain as day “Yes, this is a Holocuast that makes the WWII holocaust appear trivial.” Those comments speak for themselves HisMan, no matter what words follow.
Truthseeker –
I feel the same about you, thank you. =)
Edyt –
I have to disagree with you there. I think most people would believe that God would want them to do anything they could to stay alive, as long as whatever that was did not cause harm to other innocent people. I would most certainly be happy to live as a Catholic/etc if not doing so meant death or enslavement.
Again – there is nothing I can find on this story that says these children were forced to convert, only that they were rescued and kept safe by “living as Catholics”. If it was a “convert or be left to die” situation, that would be very different, but that doesn’t seem like the case here.
Beautiful woman – someone who truly loved life and saved others who needed protection. This is a pro-life story from another viewpoint.
Amanda 8:50am
I certainly agree with your post to Edyt. If anything, it seems Ms. Sendler made every effort to preserve the heritage of these children by recording the parents’ names.
Until we’re faced with the very real prospect of looking down the barrel of a gun or a gas chamber, we may be very unpleasantly surprised to discover what we would do to stay alive.
Its so easy to pass judgment on a situation like this from the safety of our armchairs.
If it were my children I would want whatever was necessary done to keep them alive, if they had to live in a Buddhist, Catholic, or Orthodox convent, pretend to be another ethnicity, lie through their teeth, or go into hiding.
Living as Jews would have gotten these children killed. Common sense dictates they had to “pass” as another religion in order to survive. Is there any indication these children did not return to their Jewish faith after the war?
Amanda:
“Yes, this is a Holocuast that makes the WWII holocaust appear trivial.” I have explained this in detail and that’s it.
“At least Nazis had enough courage to wear a uniform.” This means the perpetrators of the Jewish Holocaust were identifiable. The perpetrators of the Abortion Holocaust are not so readily identifiable unless of course they post on this blog. They hide behind words like “reproductive rights” and “women’s rights”, and “pro-choice”, and “bodily autonomy”, and they pretend to care about woman, which are really just the use of demonic semantics. Principles that one Joseph Goebbles invented to justify murdering God’s Chosen People. Pro-aborts can hardly utter the word abortion. They can’t even admit who they really are. If you can’t understand a rather complex analogy I can’t help you there.
I would really have more respect for pro-aborts if they could just be honest about what they support and its results. They can’t and why? Because they know in their heart of hearts that it is absolutely wrong and goes against every sense of good that dwells within them. And here’s the clincher; if the world in general, really were exposed to what abortion truly was as Jill so valiantly and sacrificially tries to do via this blog, it would end. So, denial is the fuel that keeps the abortion machine running. Pro-aborts know this and pro-aborts do this. However, denial of wrong is its own reward and the price is extrmely high.
“No this is much, much worse than the Holocaust”
I have also given my reasons for stating this in excruciating detail and, at this point, I could care less if you accept them or not. You don’t believe abortion is wrong, I do. Until you can grasp what abortion really is, I don’t expect you to be able to understand this concept or comparison.
Now Amanda: Why don’t you explain how you can be such a rabid pro-abort? Tell me how killing woman in the womb is pro-woman? Tell me how promoting a practice which devastates woman emotionally and mentally is pro-woman? Tell me how supporting a woman’s choice to kill her own child is pro-woman. Tell me why the majority of pro-aborts are atheists or agnostic? Tell me why pro-aborts can view pictures of dismembered babies in garbage cans and hardly utter a word of horror? Tell me how bodily autonomy is justification for the killing of another? Tell me how a Constitution that says we all have a right to life gets twisted to mean except the unborn? C’mon, win me over to your side Amanda, here’s your chance.
“Common sense dictates they had to “pass” as another religion in order to survive. Is there any indication these children did not return to their Jewish faith after the war? ”
Posted by: Mary at May 14, 2008 9:25 AM
Mary –
I could be wrong, but I doubt she’d have been awarded by a Jewish organization as a “Righteous Gentile” if she had in any way prevented them from remaining Jews in faith and spirit, or from returning to their lives as Jews after the fall of Hitler.
HisMan,
I do understand the point you were trying to make about the Holocaust and abortion but perhaps a better choice of words would be that they are both evil and horrific.
Soviet dictator Joe Stalin made Hitler look like an amateur and Chinese dictator Mao Tse-Tung drawfed both of them in mass murder, but was Mao any more evil or the atrocities of Hitler and Stalin more trivial than Mao’s? Hardly. Pol Pot murdered about a million of his countrymen in Cambodia. Was he not quite as bad?
I would argue that all these men, and I use the term loosely, were equally evil, and their crimes equally atrocious.
HisMan –
Trying to explain away the statements you made and then trying to change the subject does not make what you said magically dissapear. You chose to use those words… no one twisted them, no one is making them in to something they aren’t. You typed out those sentences. If you meant them differently than how you actually typed them, just say so and I’d understand. Trying instead to make it look like I’m taking meaning from them that isn’t there is silly – seeing as all I did was quote you DIRECTLY. Cut and paste. Thats all I did.
jasper said:
Without denying their respective roles, the comparison between Operation Rescue and Irena is not the same, and that’s where I believe many are getting thrown off-track on this thread.
Between the Operation Rescue sidewalk counselor and the child is the mother – who is the decisionmaker on this life or death matter. The mother’s decision is critical, so her accessibility is of great concern. She’s the one who “saves” the child.
Irena and her partners directly removed the child from an imminent situation, but the life-threat was still present for all of them, because the threatening power was out of their control, and it couldn’t be persuaded. The decision maker was inaccessible, and was far more ominous.
Though the end result is the same: lives are spared, the means to that end are quite different between the two cases. That means is critical to the discussion because in one case – violence was eventually used to overcome the Nazi regime, but such is not the case to save the lives of the unborn in a free republic, nor can it ever be.
Love never persuaded the Nazi state, but Love and firm truth have prevailed for the unborn, and in that regard two lives have been spared, not one.
I’ve put up a new post at ThruFire that touches upon the use of the word Holocaust and how it relates to abortion and genocide. Please leave specific comments to that post there, so others can relate directly an reply – thanks.
Thanks Truthseeker,
I’d appreciate that. A lot.
HisMan,
About the Nazi uniform, it had nothing to do with courage and everything to do with displaying and exercising power and brutality.
It was an honor to be a German soldier, the SS and Gestapo, who did much of the Holocaust dirty work, as well as terrorizing and torturing the citizens of occupied countries, were men held in very high esteem. The SS were even used to provide stud service to produce future generations of “pure” Germans.
It would have taken considerably more courage to refuse to wear a Nazi uniform.
Phylosopher,
why did you come back exactly? Why are you here?
To make insults? Are you jealous of Jill?
Jill is a great writer, I find her columns and posts excellent. As a matter of fact, she is a much better writer than your liberal graduates from Columbia University (you know, the group that can’t think for themselves and who follow the talking points from the Old York Times).
Yes Mary I agree that both holocausts are evil. That’s a given and by defintion of the word evil. In our eyes that is exactly right.
And I think if there was a blog back in WWII and you knew about what Hitler was doing, you’d be on that blog as well posting against that evil as I would have urging people to wake up and recognize what this evil was doing to innocent people and to the world. The battles are the same.
Having said that, don’t you think it would be a good day if we pro-lifers woke up one morning and suddenly the world had finally realized the horrors of abortion? If we keep praying and repent from this evil and seek God’s face, this will miraculously happen. The veil will be lifted.
So, because the world is rather silent on the Abortion Holocaust up to this point, the tragedy of today’s holocasut is much greater because it’s a tragedy that the world appears to be apathtic about, in denial about or just plain unable to recognize and therefore indicates that we are in a much worse state than we were in back them. How long did Hitler do what did before the world woke up to it?
Have you ever heard of Dietrich Bonhoeffer? Here’s Wiki on him:
“During World War II, Bonhoeffer played a key leadership role in the Confessing Church, which opposed the anti-semitic policies of Adolf Hitler. He was among those who called for wider church resistance to Hitler’s treatment of the Jews. While the Confessing Church was not large, it represented a major source of Christian opposition to the Nazi government in Germany. After the unsuccessful July 20 Plot in 1944, Bonhoeffer’s connections with the conspirators were discovered. He was moved to a series of prisons and concentration camps ending at Flossenb
HisMan,
No thank you there is no need for you to repeat. I understand very well and am saying that with an edge in my voice.
The world chose to be oblivious to Hitler’s rising power and his crimes. Our own President Roosevelt refused admission to Jews seeking asylum in the United States and sent them back to Nazi Germany. I don’t believe FDR was blissfully ignorant of what their fate would be.
The world was equally oblivious to Josef Stalin’s starving his own citizens on a massive scale. The world looked the other way when PolPot massacred a third of his countrymen. The world has paid homage to “leaders” who have starved, tortured, and massacred millions of their own citizens. Need I go on?
The world knew full well what was going on, they simply chose to ignore it. As far as I’m concerned abortion is just another example of this same mentality, just as evil and just as horrific. I do not agree one trivializes the other. I disagreed with your choice of words HIsMan, not the point you were making.
Hi Carla! *flying hug* Sorry that had to be my first post in awhile, and I prayed and told God I was going to try and cut down the Pope-bashing. Oh well I did try, and I’m sorry and will try to not let it happen again.
That’s one of the few things I like about Catholicism, confession : ) That and a sense of community, an ancient Roman once said, “Catholics share everything but their wives.” Radical, ancient Roman dude.
“Jess, we agree on this one. I look forward to the afterlife also. But do you feel as I do that time here on earth is also precious?”
truthseeker, I believe that getting there is half the fun : ) So yes i do think life is precious and we should try and live as well as possible. I’m not talking material wealth either, I’m talking physical, mental and spiritual well being. As for the afterlife you’re probably more confident then me in where you’re going to end up : ) I do love God and Jesus, and I’m far from perfect but I try to be good and I hope that counts for something.
“That’s one of the few things I like about Catholicism, confession : )”
Hehe, no one likes confession, Jess.
Mary:
Thanks for that clarification.
The offer of re-posting was made in reference to my limited command of the English language, not your inabilty to understand.
So your edginess is misdirected. I was criticizing my lack of writing talent, not you.
However, the truth of your post is saddening isn’t it? I just wish it weren’t so. Sometimes I just go into denial about how evil the world can be. Perhaps I
Do you think the world will even wake up to the Aborion Holocaust and if so, what would it take, a miracle, a biological discovery, a child prodigy who at birth would reprimand the doctor who tried to abort him? I mean if God used a donkey to rebuke a prophet, why would He not use a baby to change the world? What, He already did that? Cool. Sounds like we need to follow that baby.
Peace.
Eh Booby not confession forgiveness : )
Oh no! I meant to say BOBBY!!! sorry : /
Lol, the first time I went to confession when I was seven I told the priest I told my sister to go to heck and he said, “You damned your sister to HELL!!!?” And gave me the most disgusted look I cried. One of many incidences that is slowly ruining Catholicism for me : (
Oh no! I meant to say BOBBY!!! sorry : /
Lol, the first time I went to confession when I was seven I told the priest I told my sister to go to heck and he said, “You damned your sister to HELL!!!?” And gave me the most disgusted look I cried. One of many incidences that is slowly ruining Catholicism for me : (
Jess
Hope you don’t mind I had to giggle a kittle at that story. Guy obviously didn’t know what its like to have siblings, hehehe. =)
When I was little I’d say “H E Double Hockey Stick” to get away with making my point without saying heck or hell.
*little, not kittle
Hehehe, Booby.
Omg, I’m a 10 year old boy at heart.
HisMan,
You wrote very eloquently so my misunderstanding at least is at justified! :) I’ve never noticed any difficulty with the English language on your part.(a compliment)
Yes it is indeed saddening. Evil and brutality is as old as the human race and in my opinion shows no signs of abating. Abortion and the genocide in Darfur are just part of the continuum.
Will the world wake up to the abortion genocide? I doubt it. There are people who continue to admire the mass murderers I mentioned, people continue to hate, it seems to me evil only recycles, it never goes away.
Yes such a child was indeed born but His teachings are, for the most part, not being followed.
Peace to you as well.
Hisman,
Thank you for Dietrich’s bio. Heroic.
Heard of St. Maximillian Kolbe? He’s one of my faves. Shipped to Auschwitz for his criticism of the Nazi govt., among other things. Offered himself to take the place of a fellow prisoner who was sentenced to the starvation bunker. This said prisoner was a father and lamented that he would not live to see his children. St. Max stepped in. He was the last survivor of the bunker. Anxious to have him done with, he was given a fatal injection. I’ve barely scratched the surface with him.
Then there’s the Carmelite nun, St. Benedicta, who was a Jewish convert. She was an outstanding philosopher, teacher, and writer who also perished in Auschwitz.
And then the recently canonized Franz J
Wasn’t there a poem written called “sing a little louder” in which the members of a church would loudly sing everytime the trains for the death camps passed. They did not want to hear the crying and screaming of the people jammed in them like cattle, heading for the gas chambers, so they would sing more loudly to drown out the sounds. This is a true account told by a member of the church. I do not know who wrote the poem.
The poem was beautifully written, and you realize at the end that it is Christ speaking as one of the victims in the train, that while the congregation supposedly were sing His praises they in fact were drowning out His cries for help.
HisMan,
I do agree with you in the respect that God graced the Jewish through their patriarchs. He will certainly keep the covenant he made with Abraham and his children forever. Just wanted to clarify though that should not get misconstrued to mean any “favoritism”. God’s people are now to be defined by faith in salvation through the cross of Jesus Christ.
Some years ago I saw a movie, it was an actual account of someone living under the Nazi regime.
Apparently there were Jews who, in order to save their own lives, acted as “spotters”, pointing out Jews who were “passing” as non-Jews to the Nazis. I never heard of such a thing until I saw this on the movie. I can’t imagine how anyone, other than a total sociopath, could live with themselves after doing something like this.
I understand that in Nazi occupied France, there were people who actually stood in line to report activities of their neighbors and co-workers to the Nazis.
Correct me if I’m wrong but weren’t the French known to be very willing collaborators?
Hi Mary!
You are right about the poem. I think I read it here on Jill’s site. It gave me chills.
On another note:
I often wonder what life would be like today had abortion not been legalized. Would women and men be more responsibly sexually? Less STDs?
Lower instance of pre-mature babies? Lower instance of breast cancer? More respect for life in general?
Since I was fairly young in 1973, I can’t say I know what life was like prior to legalized abortion, but would appreciate your wisdom!!
I am sure someone has posted this here, but what is the abortion rate of women today compared to pre R vs. W just because it is now legal?
What was the birth rate of unwed women and girls pre R vs W?
I met a woman while in DC for the march and she was a very rabid pro-abortion advocate. She had an abortion just because she felt it was a right of passage and she should experience abortion since she was so involved in the movement.
She is now a pro-life mother with many children inlcuding several DS children.
She said at the time she was involved with the abortion movement it felt like they were really doing someting positive to help women but never ever did they think it would turn into almost 50,000,000 babies killed over 30 years.
I made her very sad.
She had an abortion just because she felt it was a right of passage and she should experience abortion since she was so involved in the movement.
Huh?!! WHOA is all I have to say to that!
That is one of the cr-azier things I have heard lately.
Something she should experience like riding a roller coaster or bungee-jumping? I really can’t imagine an abortion is something on somebody’s list of “to do’s” in their life. But who know’s? Stranger things have happened.
Cardy, Truthseeker, Sandy, Mary, Truthybaby:
You are all proof that God is alive and well.
Thanks for all that wonderful infomation that I would never have known.
At some point in the future Truthytoothy (feel the love now), I want to discuss further the concept of replacement theology. Not saying you’re wrong, just want to talk about it later at an appropraite time. God will provide.
Sandy, 5:54PM
That poem just moved me to tears. What’s especially tragic is that it is based on a true event. According to the church member I mentioned, the very loud singing of hymns was indeed timed to drown out the sounds from the trains.
I’m very flattered but I will think about this a while before I write. I don’t want to give you an interminable dissertation but want to get right to your question. I will definitely get back to you.
HisMan,
I’m not sure I know what the info was but you are entirely welcome.
HisMan,
Whenever the time is right you could open a topic on the new forum at FVFAPP and let me know. It is cool cause it makes it easy to stay on topic without interrupting the actual subject of the threads that the moderator’s post. btw – I haven’t spent a lot of time studying the great phylosopers or even the concepts of the great theologians. The ideas I express come through personal revelation and guidance from the Holy Spirit that is within me.
Yours in the Sacred Heart of Jesus. ts
I totally missed the TR postes and I really do feel like I missed something–can anyone send me an email?
Sendler-what a hero. I’m so proud of her!!
Thanks Mary!
I have wanted to seek out some reading of the pre roe v wade days and learn more about the history of the movement etc… I love your posts and the wisdom you bring to the site. I can’t wait for your response.
I just think it’s interesting how the pro-choice is always touting that they want abortion to be safe, legal and rare. If this is true, why then would Obamba or Pillary want to pass FOCA into law first chance they get. Since all laws regulating abortion would be nulled, I can only imagine this would open the flood gates for more women to seek abortion.
On demand and anytime for any reason.
Sandy
I wonder the same thing. Freedom of Choice Act is the first thing they will pass if elected President! Hmmmmm….
Hi Sandy,
I appreciate you kind remarks. I’ll do my best not to be long winded.
When I was growing up in the 50’s and 60’s abortion was only whispered about. I knew of a few girls and women who had them. I know my cousin had one or two in the doctor’s office, where most illegal abortions were performed.
It just wasn’t talked about openly.
Certainly women, especially those of means, could have abortions in hospitals under false pretenses, some hospitals being more permissive than others. The lack of ultrasound and accurate pregnancy tests certainly made this easier, especially when no one asked any questions. Others had ethics boards that considered women’s requests on a case by case basis.
Also, abortion could be performed to preserve the mother’s health and life. Prior to modern advances and technology, this may indeed have been necessary more often. Thankfully it rarely occurs now.
In the mid-60’s the drive began to legalize abortion. Its been pointed out that the death rate from illegal and legal abortion had been steadily declining for years, largely due to IV, antibiotic, and blood transfusion therapy. Dr.Bernard Nathanson points out in his book that the abortion leadership found it necessary to distort, exaggerate, make up statistics and flat out lie about the number of illegal abortions and the death rate.
People, including those in the abortion leadership, sincerely viewed abortion as a panacea for social problems, especially child abuse. Child abuse was a big one. What had greater emotional appeal than abused children? It made sense didn’t it? If a child is planned, perfect, and wanted, it will be loved and cherished. Also, who didn’t feel sorry for poor women? How much better would their lives be with a few less mouths to feed, not to mention how it saves on our taxes. The abortion leadership played on people’s emotions, not their rational thinking, and our society’s desire for simple solutions. This was very gradual. Some states “liberalized” abortion laws. New York City became an abortion mecca.
By the way, the term “choice” was never used. It was abortion. Support abortion, liberalize abortion, pro-abortion, keep abortion legal, “stop child abuse, support abortion reform” was a popular bumper sticker. Choice would come into play several years after Roe when the public was developing a distaste for abortion,the result of a Catholic plot according to one news magazine. The Catholic Church had been singled out as a common enemy against which the forces of abortion could unite. Something like how the Klan singles certain racial and ethnic groups as targets of hatred. The CC was picked because the hierarchy made such a perfect target. The anti-Catholic bigotry of the abortion forces was appalling, even Dr. Nathanson was appalled at how the CC tolerated such blatant bigotry that no other racial or religious group would have.
Roe v Wade, also based on the deceit of Norma McCorvey legalized abortion.
We saw late term abortions come into play, babies born alive, hacks putting out their shingles and, unlike the doctor doing illegal abortions in their offices, having little concern for any legal consequences. Women were aborted on an assemblyline basis.
The doctor performing an illegal abortion in his/her office had to be extremely careful to avoid complications. They also didn’t toss dismembered fetuses and patient records into the dumpster. The assembly line hacks had no such concerns.
It should be stressed that late term hacks dispose of mainly normal, healthy babies. Women at any kind of risk at any point in their pregnancy need go no farther than the nearest medical facility equipped to handle their needs.
That’s pretty much it in a nutshell Sandy. I really wanted to avoid getting too windy. If you have any questions or think of anything I may have left out, please don’t hesitate to ask.
Carla,
After the 1992 election of Bill Clinton and the democrat takeover of the House and Senate, there was very great concern the FOCA would pass. Never happened, I’m not sure why. Two years later the Republicans took over. Being they didn’t know how to stick to their principles they are again in the minority. Hopefully there will be no FOCA.